What If Marvel was Real?

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Episode 147: The Nature of Time (Avengers #8) -- September 1964 Mar 21, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss how the world came together and united in opposition to Kang the Conqueror. Why were there no holdouts? Why were we not united this way when we were challenged by the Atlanteans, or aliens? What makes Kang so much more dangerous than other evils we have dealt with as a planet? Kang claims to be a traveler from the future. Do we believe him? If so, how does time travel work? Is time travel compatible with free will? You don’t need to kill your parents to ensure you don’t exist, you just need to change the timing of conception - “you” will be replaced by your new brother (his name will likely stay the same). There was a lot to untangle in this extra-long episode!

Behind the comic:

This is the “official” first appearance of the iconic villain, Kang the Conqueror, although he had appeared under the alias “Rama Tut” twice before. The first time was in Fantastic Four #19, when the team encountered him during their own time travel adventure (although nothing was “public”, so it was not discussed on the show). His second appearance was in Fantastic Four Annual #2 (which was on the newsstand concurrently with this issue). In FF Annual #2, Rama Tut encounters Dr. Doom and the two men consider the possibility that they are actually the same man at different points in his life (never mind the fact that one of them would then remember the encounter!) Many of the origin stories in this era are weak, but this was a great issue and worth reading.

In this issue:

The Avengers are summoned by the Pentagon to attend a Red Alert meeting (by video). They are informed of a strange UFO, and asked to intervene. They do so, and meet the occupant of the UFO, a man who identifies himself as Kang the Conqueror. Kang explains that he is a time traveler with futuristic weapons. He uses these weapons to easily incapacitate the Avengers. The governments of the world unite to face down their common enemy, Kang. Meanwhile, the Teen Brigade convinces Kang that they are on his side, and he allows them to go into his ship, whereupon they free the captured Avengers, who do battle with and ultimately defeat Kang, who escapes into… time (don’t we all?)

Assumed before the next episode:

World peace does not last very long.

This episode takes place:

After the Avengers defeat Kang.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 146: Diplomatic Immunity (Fantastic Four Annual #2) -- September 1964 Mar 17, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss diplomatic immunity and how it works in practice with Dr. Victor Von Doom. As a head of state, he cannot be charged domestically with a crime, but he can be expelled. And if he is expelled and returns to the country, he no longer has immunity. At least that is how we think it works. So why, after all of the crimes Doom has committed in our country, has he not been officially expelled? Also: Yes, Reed Richards, attempted murder IS a crime in our country.

Behind the comic:

This is a seminal issue. One part (not discussed in the episode) explores the relationship between Rama Tut (soon to be Kang) and Dr. Doom (where they hypothize that they might be the same person at different points in their timeline). Another part is the full origin story of Dr. Doom. Until this point, Doom was just a crazy scientist. This issue retroactively changes his origin story to include being the monarch of Latveria. The third part of the issue is Doom’s battle with the Fantastic Four, where the idea of diplomatic immunity is brought up (and discussed in our episode).

In this issue:

Dr. Doom recounts his humble origins in the small European nation of Latveria. Orphaned at a young age, with a grudge against the aristocracy of Latveria, young Victor Von Doom trains to be both a brilliant scientist and talented sorcerer. His research leads him to a scholarship in the US, where he meets a young Reed Richards. While at university, Doom sustains a serious facial injury when one of his experiments goes awry. This tragedy ultimately leads him to don the famous mask, and persona, of Dr. Doom, and to him taking over Latveria as its absolute monarch. And the world trembles!

In another story, we see Dr. Doom rescued from space by the time traveller Rama Tut, who has himself escaped the Fantastic Four from the distant past. Doom is deposited back on Earth and thereafter sets up a devious plan to break the Fantastic Four apart. Basically, he has them invited to the Latverian embassy, and they are tricked into thinking they are each others’ enemies. Eventually, the Four battle Doom once more, all leading to a battle of wills between Reed Richards and Dr. Doom. Reed wins, of course, by fooling Doom into thinking that he won. And with that, Doom saunters away, safe in the (mistaken) believe that he has defeated his mortal enemy.

Assumed before the next episode:

People are wondering whether Latveria’s diplomats will be expelled after their leader tried to kill America’s sweethearts, the Fantastic Four.

This episode takes place:

After the Fantastic Four have once again defeated Dr. Doom.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 145: Superhero Emergency Fund - Law and Logic (Journey Into Mystery #108) -- August 1964 Mar 14, 2022

Show notes

Last week, due to human error, we published both of our two weekly episodes on Monday instead of Monday and Thursday. We will try not to let it happen again. Apologies.

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss the Avengers Emergency Fund. Thor created a shockwave damaging the structure of buildings across half the state. He has admitted to the damage and directed those concerned to the emergency fund. But how does the fund work? Who decides who gets the money and when? Do you fill out a form? Do you have to sue? Do you need a lawyer? Mike walks Ed through the legal questions as we ask: “Are we now at the point where we need super-lawyers?”

Behind the comic:

This is the first meeting of Thor and Dr. Strange. At this point, Stan Lee has managed to guest his heroes in each other’s stories with regularity, but Strange is still the odd man out. Having the sorcerer battle Loki makes a ton of sense. Also interesting here is that when Strange needed surgery, it was performed by Dr. Donald Blake.

In this issue:

Thor strikes the ground with his hammer, causing damage halfway across the state. All to save Billy from getting run over by a truck (the hammer strike caused a runaway truck to move, avoiding a clueless Billy chasing a ball across the street). Thor volunteers that he will reimburse the city for the damage he caused (which, again, extended halfway cross New York State) by accessing the Avengers Emergency Fund. He then flies away to see Dr. Strange, who has hailed him through his astral form. Strange is taken to the hospital and operated on by Thor in his mortal guise of Dr. Donald Blake. Later on, Loki appears, separates Blake from his cane (which he uses to turn into Thor), and kidnaps Blake’s nurse/love interest Jane Foster. Blake then goes to Dr. Strange for help finding his cane, which he does. This allows Blake to transform into Thor, track down Loki, and rescue Jane.

Assumed before the next episode:

Thousands of people are trying to figure out how to make a claim to the Avengers Emergency Fund.

This episode takes place:

After Loki has been defeated by Thor once more.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 143 - Avengers Inc.? (Avengers #7) -- August 1964 Mar 07, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss Iron Man’s suspension and reinstatement by the Avengers. Under whose authority was he suspended? Who had the ability to reinstate him? Are the Avengers contractors, employees, or something different? What is the legal structure of the Avengers? Do they have an office manager and corporate lawyer? Who takes the meeting minutes? How does insurance work? Is the job a lot more boring that the media makes it out to be?

Behind the comic:

Stan Lee definitely makes the team dynamics of the Avengers very different from the Fantastic Four. Most Avengers issues DO have standing meetings where they discuss “Avengers business” - as opposed to the Fantastic Four, who are presented as a bickering family. Lee takes pains to let readers know that the Avengers each have their own private lives, and that they do not know each other’s secret identities, almost as if he is saying, “these people are not close friends - they are just work colleagues” (which eventually turned into a joke in the third Thor film).

In this issue:

Iron Man is suspended from active duty with the Avengers because he failed to respond to an Avengers alarm. At the same time, the Enchantress and the Executioner are banished by Odin from Asgard to Earth. They join up with Zemo to form a team of villains who fight the Avengers. The first thing they do is bewitch Thor into thinking his fellow Avengers are evil, which leads to him battling them as bitter enemies. Iron Man sees his comrades in peril and joins the fight, which eventually leads Thor to breaking the spell. They chase away the three villains, the “Masters of Evil”.

Assumed before the next episode:

People are taking note of villains joining up to fight superheroes.

This episode takes place:

After the Masters of Evil have been taken down, for now.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 144: Overstaying your visa (Amazing Spiderman #15) -- August 1964 Mar 07, 2022

Show notes

In This Episode

Mike and Ed discuss the world famous Kraven the Hunter and his trip to New York City. Was Kraven here on a tourist or working visa? Did authorities know he was coming in order to HUNT Spider-man? If Kraven committed a crime, why was he not charged domestically? If he did not, then why was he deported? Also: Will Kraven be hunting over super people with animal totems (like The Wasp, The Cobra and The Porcupine?)

Behind the Comic

Kraven is one of Spider-man’s archnemesis’s, and Lee will return to him again in only a few months. Kraven also works closely with the Chameleon in this issue, who is later revealed to be Kraven’s brother. There is no hint of that relationship in this issue though. The logic of Kraven being deported for doing the thing that he was on the front page of the paper saying he was going to do just days before is a little lost in the issue. But the art is great!

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 142: Spies and Retaliation (Tales of Suspense #56) -- August 1964 Mar 03, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss the Soviet Agent “Unicorn” and his assault on a StarkCorp munitions factory. Does the Soviet Union still have plausible deniability with such a blatant attack? How will the US respond? What type of game are the two superpowers playing that can avoid a full-on nuclear war? Also: Secret identities can protect a hero’s family from being attacked by their enemies, but if the hero’s employers are public, doesn’t that put employees of the same company at risk from vengeful villains?

Behind the comic:

The Black Widow is becoming one of the regular Iron Man antagonists at this point. Iron Man’s stories, more so that the other heroes, are tied up in international conflict. Since the USSR is the US’s primary challenger at this point, it is easy to see why Lee goes back to that country for the majority of the villains that Stark faces. There will be more stories of the Black Widow coming soon.

In this issue:

Tony Stark is frustrated with living a double life. He decides to give up being Iron Man, at least for a short period of time, which leads to him dodging a call from the Avengers. Meanwhile, the mysterious supervillain the Unicorn is on the trail of Iron Man. He tears apart a StarkCorp factory, which lead to his friend and employee Happy Hogan being injured and his personal secretary Pepper Potts being captured. Tony Stark realizes the error of his ways, and springs into action as Iron Man. He tracks down the Unicorn and battles him, rescuing Pepper. The Unicorn nonetheless escapes.

Assumed before the next episode:

People are wondering if there is a more direct line between Iron Man and Tony Stark than they had previously known, given that Tony Stark’s personal secretary was kidnapped to draw the attention of Iron Man.

This episode takes place

After Pepper Potts has been rescued and the Unicorn has been defeated.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 141: Robin Hood - Hero or Villain? (Strange Tales #123) -- July 1964 Feb 28, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss the city’s latest supervillain: “the Beetle”. But is he really a villain? What do you call a criminal who steals from large corporations and then gives the money to the masses? A good person who does bad things? Is that worse than a bad person who does good things? And are superheroes fighting for the common good, or just defending the status quo?

Behind the comic:

Since the advent of the Superhero era, Strange Tales has continued to be the odd title out. Tales of Suspense and Tales to Astonish effectively became Iron Man and Ant-Man/Giant-Man and the Wasp, respectively. Strange Tales began its superhero version with a half-length story about the Human Torch (the youngest member of the Fantastic Four) followed by a random one-off science fiction story. That regular second story more and more came to be a tale about Dr. Strange, until eventually the magic-user was brought into the overall Marvel Universe and became the standard second feature in the title. With #123, two things happened:

* Dr. Strange finally gets half of the cover for himself - he becomes the co-star of the title rather than a call out in the corner.

* The Thing becomes a co-star of the Human Torch story. This was the “trial” of having Ben Grimm join the title, but it soon becomes official and the stories become about the hijinks of the Torch and the Thing instead of a Torch solo outing

In this issue:

Super-scientist (are there any other kinds in the Marvel Universe?) Abner Jenkins develops a costume that allows him to fly and gives him super-strength, among other cool tricks, solely for the purpose of committing crimes. He commits a robbery hoping the Thing and the Human Torch will try to stop them. He battles the two heroes, and the police, at one point dumping money that he had stolen onto a gathering crowd to create a distraction to facilitate his escape. He is eventually defeated by Johnny and Ben.

Assumed before the next episode:

People are wondering if the Beetle had the right idea of stealing from the rich and giving to the poor (although this was a ruse, obviously).

This episode takes place:

After the Beetle has been defeated.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 140: Avengers: World Police (Tales to Astonish #58) -- July 1964 Feb 24, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss how Giant-Man and the Wasp prevented an alien invasion that started in Africa. Mike argues that there must be international treaties that allow foreign intervention. Ed believes that this is unlikely due to international bureaucracy, but that America can’t let that stop them from being the “World Police” - at least as it relates to extra-planetary invasions. Also: Who is paying for the jet that the two heroes crashed on their adventure?

Behind the issue:

More and more, Lee is incorporating the broader “Marvel Universe” seamlessly into each title. Here, the Avengers get an alert that there is a giant in Africa that is demanding human sacrifices, but, because it is not seen as a “huge” threat and many of the team members are busy with other work, the decision is made that Giant-Man and the Wasp can handle it on their own. The story otherwise follows the common pattern: the villain is ACTUALLY an alien who is “testing the ground” to see if his people should invade. After encountering resistance from Giant-Man, the alien giant decides for his people that “Earth is not worth it”. Sounds familiar? While Lee is trying to get kids to read more issues across the entire Marvel line, he is still generally assuming that most readers will not notice that this is the same story he has told with a half dozen earlier alien invasions.

In this issue:

Giant-Man and the Wasp head to Africa to investigate the story of a 30 foot tall giant. They fly over in a jet, and sure enough, there is a giant who grabs their jet out of the sky. Giant-Man and the Wasp are able to use teamwork to beat the giant, who is led to believe that they possess strange magical powers. The giant, who is actually an alien, decides that his people should not invade the Earth.

Assumed before the next episode:

People are wondering how broad a net the Avengers cast in the name of world security.

This episode takes place:

After Giant-Man and the Wasp have beaten the giant alien invader.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 139: Superheroes … without powers? (Journey Into Mystery #107) -- August 1964 Feb 21, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss the heroism of Dr. Donald Blake, who single-handedly defeated the French supervillain, the Grey Gargoyle. What defines a superhero? Do you need superpowers, or is it enough to take on supervillains? And why was Blake on his own to begin with? Was he left out to dry by Thor because of his recent betrayal? Is the god of thunder a petulant god? Also: Why was one news agency in particular given access to the battle footage? What did they have to agree to in order to have exclusivity? Is it fair for a government-funded organization to negotiate that way? And what does it feel like to be turned to stone?

Behind the issue:

This issue introduces the Grey Gargoyle - the first super from France. Lee also uses the trope of “Avengers” and “StarkCorp” resources to allow his heroes to get access to any sort of extraordinary equipment the plot needs - in this case a portable holographic projector. But the most impactful element of this issue was requiring Donald Blake to be the hero. The idea that “being a hero is not about your powers, it is about stepping up and doing the right thing” is a common plot line in many modern re-tellings - perhaps most memorably in the film Iron Man 3, where Tony Stark needs to save the day with just his own brains and courage without being able to rely on his armored suit. This was one of the first issues to explored that idea.

In this issue:

Thor learns that Jane loves his alter ego, Dr. Donald Blake, which leads him to fly through the city like a lovesick teenager. Meanwhile, the Grey Gargoyle has landed in New York City. He has the ability to turn people to stone for an hour at a time, and it doesn’t take much for him to show of this terrifying ability. He had developed this power through a lab accident, which is fairly common for superpowers these days. He decides to use his powers for crime, and to also challenge the Mighty Thor. He gets his wish and battles the god of thunder, but is ultimately defeated by Thor’s alter ego Dr. Donald Blake, who uses a holographic projector to trick the Gargoyle into following a projection of Thor to the river, where the Gargoyle sinks to his apparent demise.

Assumed before the next issue:

People have forgiven Dr. Donald Blake for his past betrayal of Thor.

This episode takes place:

After Blake has defeated the Grey Gargoyle.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 138: How do superheroes pay taxes? (Amazing Spider-man #14) -- July 1964 Feb 17, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss the production of the latest superhero film - this time starring Spider-Man. When Spider-Man gets paid, how does he declare it on his taxes? If he does not declare this income, does that create an additional incentive to never reveal his secret identity (because he is guilty of tax fraud)? Also: How deeply involved is the mafia in film production in America? And why are there so few superhero movies?

Behind the comic:

This is the first appearance of the Green Goblin, who is arguably Spider-Man’s archenemy. The Goblin is eventually revealed to be Norman Osborn, the industrialist and father of Peter Parker’s best friend. But in this first appearance, none of that is even hinted at. Stan Lee does not tell us who the Goblin really is (unlike most of the villains he introduces, for whom he spends a few pages on their back story and motivations). By all appearances it seems like the Goblin is just another disgruntled scientist, and his motivation seems to be best Spider-Man just for the sake of it.

This issue is also the first encounter between Spider-Man and the Hulk. We don’t talk about either set of events in the episode as they seem to be secret. But in a later issue of the Avengers, the team is looking at newsreel footage of the Spider-Man/Hulk battle. This seems weird given that the entire battle happens inside a cave. Consistency was never Lee’s strong suit.

In this issue:

The Green Goblin stops by a sleezy hotel room where the Enforcers are hanging out and takes over their gang by demonstrating his power. He then explains that he has a plan to get revenge on Spider-Man. The Goblin then convinces a Hollywood producer to shoot a movie starring himself (a costumed man on a flying broom) and Spider-Man. Next, he meets up with Spider-Man to tell him to meet with the Hollywood producer about starring in this movie. Spider-Man meets with the producer, signs the contract for the film, and then heads to Hollywood. He realizes during the movie shoot that the three Enforcers are the criminals whom he sent to jail (as they try to kill him). The fight ends up in a cave, where the Hulk happens to be. Spider-Man evades the Hulk, but is then attacked by the Green Goblin. Spider-Man escapes alive, as does the Green Goblin, and so begins a multi-decade rivalry. The movie is also cancelled.

Assumed before the next episode:

People are disappointed that the Spider-Man movie did not get finished.

This episode takes place:

After Spider-Man defeats the Enforcers and his movie is cancelled.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

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