What If Marvel was Real?

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Episode 167: Iron Man, Murder Suspect (Tales of Suspense #60) -- December 1964 Jun 29, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss the police decision to declare Tony Stark missing and Iron Man as a suspect. Did Iron Man kill Tony Stark? Why is Iron Man still in charge of StarkCorp. while he is under investigation? Why hasn’t the board of directors already acted, and how will they respond when they do? Is this the most exciting story since the founding of the Fantastic Four? Also: Pepper Potts, Tony Stark’s secretary, has been kidnapped by a masked villain using a bow and specialty explosive arrows. Is it all related as part of a conspiracy? Or is it just a distraction from the bigger issue of Mr. Stark’s disappearance?

Behind the comic:

Most Marvel comics at this time were monthly, in theory (X-Men was bi-monthly). But in practice the comics came out whenever the artists completed their work. This meant that Spider-Man comics were often delayed (Ditko started delivering in a more timely manner in 1965), it also meant that some of the storylines got a little mixed up. There WERE a number of issues released between Tales of Suspense #59 and #60 (Tales to Astonish #61, Fantastic Four #33, Journey Into Mystery #11, and Strange Tales #127) but, coincidentally, none of those issues had any publicly visible events. So from a Super Serious perspective it means Part 2 of this Iron Man drama follows immediately after Part 1. In the real world Part 3 does not come out until January 1965, but from a comic book continuity perspective it happens BEFORE Avengers #11 (which was on newsstands the same day as this issue), so we will cover in our next episode.

In this issue:

Tony Stark is frustrated because he feels he needs to wear his armour all the time, lest his fragile heart stop. This means as well that he has to remain Iron Man at all times and tell his closest friends that Tony Stark is away on a secret business matter. His friends call the police, who interrogate Iron Man, who draws suspicion and flees under a hail of bullets from the cops. Meanwhile, Hawkeye is convinced by the Black Widow to raid StarkCorp.‘s factory to steal plans for its newest weapons. Hawkeye kidnaps Tony Starks’s assistant Pepper Potts. This draws Iron Man back to rescue Pepper, whereupon he battles Hawkeye, chasing him off.

Assumed before the next episode:

StarkCorp.’s share price keeps going up and down on the uncertainties involving its founder and Iron Man.

This episode takes place:

After Pepper Potts has been rescued.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 166: The Avengers Mansion Tax Shelter (Tales of Suspense #59) -- November 1964 Jun 22, 2022

Show notes

In This Episode:

Mike and Ed discuss Tony Stark’s donation of his giant Upper East Side Mansion to the Avengers. Was the mansion donated directly from his personal wealth, or was it done through StarkCorp? What was Tony’s motivation? Is it related to his recent decision to turn StarkCorp temporarily over to Iron Man? Is is suspicious that Iron Man has taken control of Stark Corp within days of also taking possession of one of the most valuable pieces of real estate in New York? Also: Why did the mafia choose this moment to attempt an Avengers Mansion home invasion?

Behind the Issue:

This issue marks the first modern stand-alone Captain America story. Going forward Tales of Suspense is splitting its storytelling between Iron Man and Captain America (just as Tales to Astonish has split between Giant Man/Wasp and the Hulk). At this point in Marvel’s history every Avenger has their own stand-alone (or shared stand-alone) title.

In This Comic

Coming Soon! Check out the post online.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 165: Iron Man, CEO (Tales of Suspense #59) -- November 1964 Jun 15, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss the revelation that Tony Stark has put Iron Man in (temporary) charge of StarkCorp. Can someone with a secret identity be a corporate officer of a publicly traded corporation? (No.) Can a CEO unilaterally declare a temporary new temporary CEO without first speaking to his board of directors? (No.) Is Tony Stark doing both of those things anyway? (Yes.) Super Serious is here to explain the rules of corporate governance and why Tony Stark believes rules do not apply to him.

Behind the comic:

This may be the first three-part story told by Marvel Comics. It starts here and continues into Tales of Suspense 60 and 61. The idea of Iron Man becoming the CEO of StarkCorp because Tony is not able to remove the armor and living is a great premise that Stan Lee milks for all it is worth (and raises the stakes! Just wait until next issue!)

In This Issue:

The Black Knight’s flying horse helps free him from prison. Meanwhile, Tony Stark suffers from a medical emergency. His armour is the only thing that can save him, and so he puts it on. He then battles the Black Knight as Iron Man. After the battle, Tony is worried that he will not survive if he takes his armor off. He decides to stay in his armor and, as Iron Man, tells his two most trusted employees that “Mr. Stark” will be out of town for a while and has left “him”, Iron Man, in charge of the company.

Assumed before the next episode:

StarkCorp stock likely drops.

This episode takes place:

After Iron Man starts his sort of take over of StarkCorp.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 164: Is Spider-Man a Coward? (Amazing Spider-Man #18) -- November 1964 Jun 08, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss the claim that Spider-Man is a coward. The hero clearly ran from at least two fights (with the Green Goblin and later with Sandman). Does that make him a coward, or just concerned for his own safety? What makes someone a coward? Even if Spider-Man is not a coward, if he is now afraid to engage with supervillains, is he just in the wrong line of work? If you are afraid of driving fast, that is okay, but maybe do not chose to become a race car driver …

Behind the comic:

Most of the issues in this time period - across all the titles - are standalone. The hero ends each issue in a very similar place to where he started. This issue is different. In Spider-Man #17, Peter ran away from the Green Goblin because he had to help his aunt. This issue builds on those events. Peter is now worried that he should not be Spider-Man because if something happens to him, his aunt will have no one to care for her. These dilemmas that Stan thrusts on Peter are what make the early Spider-Man titles stand apart from so many of the other titles at the time. Peter’s issues continue into Spider-Man #19.

In this issue:

The Daily Bugle publishes a story on how Spider-Man is a coward, and the world at large appears to believe it. J. Jonah Jameson is really playing up the story, and Spider-Man’s reputation is really quite damaged. Peter struggles with what he should do, staying on the sidelines while his aunt is ill. She eventually recovers, and Peter decides that he can return to his duties as Spider-Man.

Assumed before the next episode:

People are wondering if they are being a little hard on Spider-Man. I hope.

This episode takes place:

While Spider-Man is considered to be a coward.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 163: Buying Super Powers (Avengers #10) -- November 1964 Jun 01, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss an ad that has been appearing in the back of comics and magazines that promises to provide customers with superpowers. Are we finally seeing mass-produced superpowers? Is this organization being run by the government? Will getting powers be dangerous? Or is it all a scam or a prank?

Behind the comic:

This is the first appearance of Immortus. Immortus is later retconned into being a future version of Kang the Conqueror, but in this appearance he is a standalone character with no connection to Kang.

In this issue:

Rick Jones responds to an ad which promises to give him superpowers. It is a ruse by Immortus, who is working with Baron Zemo and the Masters of Evil, to bait the Avengers into a fight. The Avengers oblige, and Immortus, as a master of time, bring various historical figures to the present to fight the Avengers. Ultimately, the Avengers prove their mettle and defeat Immortus and his motley crew drawn from the far reaches of time. This issue also includes a classic “heroes fighting due to a misunderstanding”, and demonstrates the might of Captain America.

Assumed before the next episode:

The Avengers are wondering how to protect themselves against someone who can travel through time.

This episode takes place:

After the Avengers have defeated Immortus.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 162: Mutant Prejudice (X-Men #8) -- November 1964 May 25, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss the recent attack on “The Beast” of the X-Men. Beast was attacked not for what he was doing, but for who he is: a mutant. Why are people anti-mutant? How are mutants different from other people with superpowers? What is driving this hysteria? Is there any logic to the prejudice? How should the broader super-human community respond?

Behind the comic:

Until X-Men #8, the X-Men were not very different from the Avengers. They were younger and in school, but both teams worked for the government and fought bad guys and monsters. The X-Men’s villains were more likely to be mutants, but that was just the use of a different rogues gallery. That all changed with X-Men #8, when Stan Lee started with the idea that mutants themselves were “hated and feared”. This idea gains steam over the coming months (Sentinels are introduced in X-Men #14), but this was where it all started!

In this issue:

Hank “the Beast” McCoy rescues a child in front of panicked onlookers, following which the crowd attacks him. They identify him as a mutant, whom they apparently hate. Hank is obviously upset, and wonders in anger whether Magneto isn’t right. He leaves the team and becomes a professional wrestler, where he meets a fellow mutant, Unus the Untouchable. After the match, Unus meets with Mastermind to see if Magneto will let him join the Brotherhood, but he gives him another test, which is to defeat a member of the X-Men in combat. And so Unus joins in on a bank robbery, hoping this will lead to a battle with the X-Men. Which it does, although the results are inconclusive, and Unus gets away. When they meet again, Hank shoots him with an energy gun which augments his power, creating a King Midas type scenario, Unus being unable to touch anything. Hank thereafter powers Unus down, having promised him to quit trying to join Magneto and his Brotherhood, and to stop acting supervillainy.

Assumed before the next episode:

People are becoming more intolerant towards mutants, which is sad.

This episode takes place:

After Unus has been defeated… for now.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 161: The Problem with Bail (Journey Into Mystery #110) -- November 1964 May 18, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss Cobra and Mr. Hyde being released on their own recognizance due to an anonymous individual posting their $500,000.00 bail. Should super-criminals be released on bail of ANY amount? What is the responsibility of the bail poster now that both suspects have immediately returned to a life of crime by kidnapping a woman and getting into a confrontation with Thor? Also: Mike explains to Ed how bounty hunters work.

Behind the comic:

Long before Superman turned back time in his feature film, Stan Lee was arbitrarily adding powers to his superheroes whenever he needed to. In this issue (and the next), Thor gains the power to stop time by creating a swirling whirlwind vortex. That time-stoppage allows Jane Foster to stay alive in a state of suspended animation while Thor battles Hyde and Cobra. His effort in defeating those villains creates the goodwill that inspires Odin to give Jane the magical antidote to her poisoning. Eventually the power sets of these heroes become more defined and writers work around those limitations, but in this early stage of the Marvel Universe, all of that is still being figured out.

In this issue:

Loki disguises himself as a well dressed man, and posts bail for the supervillains Cobra and Mr. Hyde. Once out of jail, Loki explains to this dastardly duo that he is Loki, an Asgardian god, and that he wants them to kidnap Jane Foster. He powers them up and sends them on their way. They kidnap Jane, and Thor is made to look like a coward in front of his father Odin, who banishes him from Asgard as a result (all a part of Loki’s plan). Thor battles through Asgard to meet with his father Odin to beg his forgiveness, which Odin does not really give, and then returns to Earth to battle Cobra and Hyde. Jane is injured during the fight, and Thor saves her life by suspending time around her.

Assumed before the next episode:

Thor is working out his father issues, I think.

This episode takes place:

While time is suspended around an injured Jane.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 160: Mutually Assured Destruction (Fantastic Four #32) -- November 1964 May 11, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss the true identity of the Invincible Man. Behind his mask, he was apparently Franklin Richards, father of Sue and Johnny Storm. But that identity was also fake, and behind the second mask he was the Super Skrull (which explains his duplicated Fantastic Four powers). The bigger topic of discussion is how Reed Richards obtained the ability to wipe out the entire Skrull race. He did not commit genocide, but he could have, and he threatened to do so. Does this ability make us safer, or less safe? Does it matter that it is in the hands of a private citizen instead of the Presidents of Russia and America? Was Dr. Strangelove a documentary!?!

Behind the comic:

The potential genocide we dive into in the episode is almost an aside in this issue, and as far as we are aware the capabilities are addressed in the comics again. Instead, this issue is important in Marvel continuity for providing background on the parents of Sue and Johnny. Their father was just introduced, but he dies here a “hero” - sacrificing himself to prevent a Skrull sneak attack.

In this issue:

An alien arrives on earth and assumes the form of Franklin Storm, thereafter sending Dr. Storm to another galaxy. “Dr. Storm” escapes prison as the Invincible Man, using the same powers of the Fantastic Four. He thereafter threatens the world while dressed in a bizarre costume and calling himself the Invincible Man. The Fantastic Four battle him to a standstill. The world turns on the Four, assuming they took it easy on the villain. On their second battle, Reed reveals that he knows the truth and, once he is confronted, the Invincible Man reveals his true identity, the Super Skrull. Reed threatens the Skrull home world with nuclear genocide if the real Dr. Storm is not returned to Earth. The Skrulls agree to this condition, and return Dr. Storm, although he is boobytrapped with a bomb that kills him upon his return to Earth. Dr. Storm dies a hero, or at least not as a villain.

Assumed before the next episode:

People are wondering why the Skrulls’ plan was so complicated.

This episode takes place:

After the Fantastic Four have defeated the Skrulls.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 159: Persuasion vs Compulsion (Daredevil #4) -- October 1964 May 05, 2022

Show notes

Programing Note:

Both hosts will be traveling this summer and we realized we may not be able to record new episodes for a period of two months. In order to keep a regular cadence, we are going to pre-record as much as we can in May, and then drip them to you at a rate of one per week. We hope to pick up the pace again sometime in August or September. In the meantime we hope you will be able to “savor” the episodes on this slower cadence. We have also invested in improved post-production editing. Maybe you noticed a difference in the last half dozen episodes?

In This Episode:

Mike and Ed discuss the Purple Man, a villain who admits to having the ability to compel people to follow his every verbal command. What is the difference between persuasion and compulsion? Are they different in kind, like running vs flying, or just degree, like running vs running super fast? If someone is persuaded to do something illegal they are criminally responsible for the act, but what if they are compelled? If someone can resist being compelled, are those who fail to resist liable? Where does one draw the line? Can a line be drawn at all? Also: Is the US military secretly experimenting on mind control chemicals? Have I persuaded you to listen to this episode yet?

Behind the Comic:

This is the first appearance of the Purple Man, who in modern comics becomes a very dangerous, disturbing villain. He is most famous for taking Jessica Jones hostage and under his control for months. The after-effects of that mind-kidnapping were explored both in the comics (Alias #24) and the first season of Jessica Jones (originally on Netflix, now available on Disney+)

In This Issue:

(Not ready at time of publication. Will be updated soon!)

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

Episode 158: Covert Operations, Giant-Sized (Tales to Astonish #60) -- October 1964 Apr 28, 2022

Show notes

In this episode:

Mike and Ed discuss Giant-Man’s covert operation in East Berlin. He rescued a suspected American spy and busted through the Berlin Wall. Now that it is clear he is working directly for the CIA, how does that affect how the Avengers will work with foreign governments? If they get in disputes, will they be treated as spies? Will this make defending the Earth more difficult? Also: Why did Giant-Man threaten violence to his fan club?

Behind the issue:

Since Stan Lee was writing every series at this point, he began having the Avengers guest-star in more and more of the non-Avengers titles. The perception is that the five Avengers basically spend all their time on Avenger’s business. In this case, the Avengers were asked to save the American spy, and Giant-Man was the individual who was sent on the mission. At the time, new issues came out as the artists completed the work, which sometimes made it difficult for Stan to keep the different storylines coherent (something similar is happening with the Marvel Cinematic Universe right now. Spider-Man: No Way Home was meant to come out AFTER Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. The multiverse elements of Spider-Man were supposed to follow what was kicked off in the Dr. Strange movie. When the release dates were switched, the storylines needed to be changed to make sense. This may be why Stan changed the Avengers line-up in Avengers #16. Coming soon!)

In this issue:

Giant-Man breaks up his own fan club meeting. He’s in a bad mood because he is stressed about his friend Lee Kearns, who has been captured in East Berlin. He decides to fly to Europe and liberate his friend. He sneaks into East Berlin, breaks his friend out of his cell, and fights a bunch of hyper-intelligent gorillas that the Soviets have at the prison. He ends up busting down part of the Berlin Wall, ferrying his friend to freedom.

Assumed before the next episode:

People are worried that an Avenger may have started WWIII.

This episode takes place:

After Giant-Man has broken his friend out of East Berlin.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

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