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    Fiction

    What If Marvel was Real?

    What if… the Marvel Universe was real?

    In 1961 the Fantastic Four revealed themselves to the world and everything changed. Mike and Ed discuss the in-universe implications of super powers, aliens, monsters and more. From how Avenger Insurance will pay for Thor’s property damage to why Spider-man needs a new PR agency, its comic books discussions in a whole new way.

    Every issue covered in the Marvel Universe from the very beginning.

    Full backstory on every episode with transcripts at www.SuperSerious616.com

    www.superserious616.com

    Advertise

    Copyright: © Edward Nevraumont

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    Latest Episodes:
    Episode 177: The Absence of Evidence (Strange Tales #129 + Amazing Spider-Man #21 + Tales of Suspense #62) -- February 1965 Sep 29, 2022
    Show notes

    In this episode:

    Mike and Ed discuss the recent exploits of the Human Torch. In less than a week he has captured four super criminals, and he has done it with style. Meanwhile, Dr. Strange has been asked by the media to come forward and explain what magic is, and has refused. The hosts contrast the different choices that these two superheroes have made for handling public relations, and argue that Dr. Strange may be making a choice that leads to being ostracized like Spider-Man. Also: A lack of evidence does not mean something has been proven to not exist.

    Behind the comic:

    The three issues we discuss in this episode were all released on the same day (at least officially). Marvel’s two most popular characters at the time were Spider-Man and the Human Torch, and ASM #21 is a great example of Stan differentiating the two teenagers: in the eyes of the public, the Torch can do no wrong, and Spider-Man can do nothing right.

    In these issues:

    Strange Tales #129:

    Story one

    Three of the supervillains (who were given powers by Dr. Doom previously) have escaped from prison. Johnny “the Human Torch” Storm hears about it while on a date with his girlfriend on the golf course, and quickly races to investigate. He is overpowered by the trio after running out of energy and captured, but is able to fire a flash to alert his teammate Ben “the Thing” Grimm. Ben races to the scene but he is likewise overpowered. The two heroes are tied to train tracks, although the Thing is able to kick the train away, and thereafter capture the three supervillains.

    Story two

    The media want Dr. Strange to discuss magic on a TV show; he answers the requests with silence. TV presenters who decry Dr. Strange and, from their perspectives, “alleged” magical abilities have an old statue rumoured to have mystic powers that they wanted to ask Dr. Strange about. The four TV presenters mysteriously disappear, leaving only the old statue on the studio floor. Dr. Strange investigates and determines, with the help of his mentor, that the statue does have mystic powers connected with an ancient and evil magician named Tiboro. Dr. Strange confronts Tiboro and is able to best him after a fantastic battle, freeing the four TV presenters. The rescued quartet are grateful and want to put on a show about how magic is real, although Dr. Strange casts a spell so that they all forget what happened.

    Amazing Spider-Man #21

    The supervillain Abner “the Beetle” Jenkins is released from prison and immediately sets about planning his revenge against the Human Torch. Before the inevitable battle, we see how the public responds to the Human Torch - with love and admiration - and Spider-Man - with fear and trepidation. The Beetle first battles Spider-Man, and their battle leads to them crashing into the house of the Torch’s girlfriend Dorrie. The Beetle kidnaps Dorrie, and when the Torch arrives at her place, he mistakenly thinks that Spider-Man was involved. The two battle and, once the Torch figures out that Spider-Man was not involved in kidnapping Dorrie, they team up to fight the Beetle, eventually overcoming the supervillain.

    Tales of Suspense #62:

    The episode opens with Iron Man captured and at the mercy of the Mandarin, who goes about monologuing his supervillain origin story (which involves capturing rings from an alien spacecraft). Iron Man breaks free from his confinement and is able to break up the Mandarin’s efforts at starting a nuclear war. The two battle, with the Mandarin fleeing, vowing to destroy Iron Man another day.

    Assumed before the next episode:

    People are wondering if Dr. Strange is legit or a fraud, and they are still unsure about whether Spider-Man can be trusted. Meanwhile, everyone loves the Fantastic Four.

    This episode takes place:

    After news stories about Dr. Strange refusing to talk about magic, and about Spider-Man and the Torch’s battle, are aired.


    This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

    Episode 176: Calamity on Campus (Fantastic Four #35 + Journey Into Mystery #113) -- February 1965 Sep 22, 2022
    Show notes

    In this episode:

    Mike and Ed discuss Reed Richards’s invitation to speak at New York State University, where he studied many years ago. While he was giving his speech, the campus was attacked by Diablo and a robotic “Dragon Man”. Is it irresponsible to invite superheroes to public events given that they seem to be magnets for supervillains? Do superheroes have their own security like other celebrities, or is having superpowers security enough?

    Behind the comic:

    Marvel began like DC by using imaginary locations like Metropolis and Gotham, although Stan quickly pivoted to having the Fantastic Four based in New York City. But he still used imaginary locations for smaller cities, African and Eastern European countries, and in this issue, a university. We made the decision in the podcast to call Reed’s alma mater “New York State University”, but in the issue Stan just calls it “State U”. The other interesting set of events that we do not talk about in the episode is Stan’s use of cameo appearances. Apparently while Reed is touring the campus, so is Peter Parker, who is scouting future universities, and Charles Xavier and Scott Summers (Cyclops), who are interviewing students to find more mutants. None of these heroes get involved in the conflict. Perhaps they did not want to wait around for Reed’s speech?

    In this issue:

    Fantastic Four #35

    The Fantastic Four land their Fantasticar at State University, as Reed has been invited to give a speech. He is warmly received. At the same time, Charles Xavier and Scott Summers are on campus, secretly looking for new mutants. Meanwhile, Diablo escapes his earthly imprisonment in Europe and heads straight to America to take his revenge on the Fantastic Four. He arrives at the university, and brings a robot that a university scientist created to life. The robot, which looks like a biped dinosaur and is nicknamed Dragon Man, battles the Four along with Diablo at the University, with the battle shifting out of town. The Four ultimately emerge victorious with the assistance of Dragon Man, who turned on Diablo and pulled him into an icy lake with him to their apparent doom.

    Journey into Mystery #113:

    Thor refuses to return to Asgard as his father, Odin, wants, as he has fallen in love with a mortal, Jane Foster. He returns to Earth and, in his Dr. Donald Blake identity, admits to Jane that he is actually Thor. Meanwhile, the Grey Gargoyle has returned and decided to search out and battle Thor. We return to Asgard, where Odin, having been manipulated somewhat by Loki, decides to depower Thor, which basically traps Thor in his Blake identity. The timing could not be worse, as Blake is unable to transform into Thor to show Jane who he really is; and because the Grey Gargoyle attacks Blake so that he can lure Thor out. Fortunately, Thor/Blake has friends in high places (Odin has secretly sent a warrior from Asgard to help his son), and he is helped out, and eventually his ability to turn into Thor is restored. He defeats the Grey Gargoyle, as Thor, and as Blake, he basically allows Jane to think he had made up the whole “I am the god of thunder” thing.

    Assumed before the next issue:

    People are starting to question the safety of being around superheroes. Oh, the irony.

    This episode takes place:

    After the Fantastic Four have defeated Diablo.


    This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

    Episode 175: J. Jonah Jameson, Superhero (Amazing Spider-Man #20) -- January 1965 Sep 15, 2022
    Show notes

    In this episode:

    Mike and Ed discuss JJJ’s claim that he single-handedly defeated the supervillain called “The Scorpion”. This strains credulity… which makes us question the integrity of the Daily Bugle. Is the publication a newspaper, or a tabloid? In a world of real alien invasions and superpowers, what is the difference anymore? If Big Foot attacked Seattle, would any of us really be surprised? How can tabloids even compete with reality these days? What is the truth, really?

    Behind the issue:

    This was the first appearance of the Scorpion, who would go on to be one of Spider-Man’s continuing archenemies. It is also revealed that JJJ was directly responsible for the villain’s origin (if not his first defeat).

    In this issue:

    Peter is wandering around town, wondering if people are following him, and concerned that he may inadvertently reveal his secret identity. Meanwhile, J. Jonah Jameson is mumbling to himself in his office at the Daily Bugle, obsessing about Spider-Man and finally deciding that he needs to meet with a scientist who has apparently figured out how to cause artificial mutations. He convinces the man whom he hired to follow Peter (in hopes of finding Peter’s favourite photo subject, Spider-Man), Mac Gargan, to volunteer for an experiment which will give him the powers of a scorpion. The expieriment works, augmenting Gargan’s strength, and when combined with a scorpion costume, Gargan, now called the Scorpion, feels invulnerable. He heads out and confronts Spider-Man, defeating the young hero. Scorpion, flush with victory, decides to take over the city. He beats some cops, and he then ignores the scientist who gave him his powers, following which the scientist falls to his death. Spider-Man meets up with the scorpion for round two, and they battle. JJJ has second thoughts about his creation of a mutated supervillain when he finds out that the scientist is now dead, and he happens to be at the right place at the right time when Spider-Man defeats the Scorpion, taking credit for the superhero’s victory.

    Assumed before the next episode:

    People are wondering how a middle-aged newspaper published such as J. Jonah Jameson defeated an artificially enhanced, animal-themed supervillain.

    This episode takes place:

    After JJJ has “defeated” the Scorpion.


    This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

    Episode 174 - See it while you can (Avengers #12) -- January 1965 Sep 08, 2022
    Show notes

    Apologies for the gaps in new episode this summer. Even though we had pre-recorded, vacations and some technical difficulties (my computer lost the ability to charge last week) caused us to miss our regular Wednesday drops. We should be back on track going forward and you should get at least an episode a week dropped in this feed every Wednesday morning. We appreciate your patience.

    In this episode:

    Mike and Ed discuss the Avengers’ statement to the Daily Standard that the recent tremors felt around the world were created by the Mole Man attempting to speed up the planet’s rotation to destroy all life on the surface. Thank goodness for the Avengers, but how confident are we that villains such as the Mole Man will stop trying to wipe out humanity with new and creative ways? When villains have the ambition to destroy the planet and the technological means to do so, what should we as a society do to prepare? We don’t have all the answers, but we suggest you go and see the leaning Tower of Pisa before someone knocks it over for good…

    Behind the issue:

    We believe this is the first mention of the “Daily Standard”. Stan usually used the Daily Bugle whenever he needed a paper mentioned, but for some reason he made up a new paper in this issue for the Avengers to provide the exclusive.

    In this issue:

    Giant-Man is alerted by his ants to the fact that the Mole Man is up to something. He tries to engage the Avengers on this potential plot by the Mole Man, and to have them investigate, but they brush him off. And so he investigates on his own, going underground and being captured by the Mole Man and his followers. And then Mole Man’s plan is revealed - he is speeding up the Earth’s rotation, and people around the world start to feel it. The Avengers feel badly for blowing off Giant-Man, and they go to rescue him. A furious battle ensues underground, although the Mole Man and his crew escape. The Mole Man teams up with another Fantastic Four antagonist, the Red Ghost, and they battle the Avengers together. The Avengers ultimately defeat the terrible twosome and their followers, and stop the Earth from seeing up its rotation, and their heroism is reported in the Daily Standard.

    Assumed before the next episode:

    People are dealing with the fallout of the Earth briefly speeding up its rotation, which caused untold devastation and potentially longterm problems.

    This episode takes place:

    After the Daily Standard has reported this adventure on its front pages.


    This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

    Episode 173: Laser Assassinations (Tales of Suspense #61, part 2) -- December 1964 Aug 24, 2022
    Show notes

    In this episode:

    Mike and Ed discuss both the reveal that Tony Stark is still alive, and his subsequent assassination from a space laser. Tony’s will leaves all his assets to Iron Man, which puts the suspicion for the laser attack squarely on the Avenger’s head (at least in terms of motive), but the show summarizes the motives of other potential assassins (there are many!) Maybe more importantly, who has the ability to kill from a distance like this, and who will they target next? Are all of our best scientists at risk? Is solving this attack Reed Richard’s number one priority? If not, why not?

    Behind the comic:

    Stan attempts to pull off pathos in this issue and the panels spend some time with people like Happy Hogan, who is broken up by Tony’s apparent death. Meanwhile, Stan lets the implications of these events sit for a while. The issue ends with Iron Man being a captive of the Mandarin, and the next issue is the full origin of the villain - which means that Tony Stark “stays dead” for a full two months in the comic continuity, before returning from the dead in early March.

    In this issue:

    Pepper Potts and Happy Hogan announce they are quitting and are unhappy that Tony Stark is missing and Iron Man has basically taken over the company. They speak to the police about the matter, and the newspapers find out about it, finally noticing that Tony Stark is missing and that Iron Man is now a suspect in his disappearance. Tony Stark, who is actually Iron Man, decides to deal with the situation. He decides the best way to do that is to appear to Happy as a sick Tony Stark who explains that Iron Man is in charge of the company on his behalf. Happy then supports the perspective that everything is legitimate. Meanwhile, the Mandarin uses a killer ray to attack the Earth. Specifically, to attack Iron Man, who escapes, although the news report that Tony’s home has been struck by a deadly ray of unknown origin. Tony Stark’s closest friends realize that and accept that Tony Stark is dead and Iron Man has taken over the company. Meanwhile, Iron Man fights the Mandarin and ends up being captured. The episode ends on a cliffhanger.

    Assumed before the next episode:

    People are dumping StarkCorp stock.

    This episode takes place:

    After people find out that Tony Stark was killed by a fricking space laser.


    This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

    Episode 172: People who do evil things (Strange Tales #128) -- December 1964 Aug 17, 2022
    Show notes

    In this episode:

    Mike and Ed discuss the X-Men’s release of photos and power descriptions of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (Magneto, Toad, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and Mastermind). Why were these details released now? Was the motivation related to the recent anti-mutant feelings of the public? Or was it just about providing information so we can all protect ourselves? Also: Why were Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver meeting with the Fantastic Four?

    Behind the comic:

    From their first introduction, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were presented as complicated and reluctant villains. Scarlet Witch believed that she owed a debt to Magneto, and Quicksilver’s motivation was just to protect his sister. This was the first issue where that motivation is explored outside the X-Men series. The two villains attempt to give up their life of crime, but when they are attacked anyway by the Thing and the Human Torch, they abandon their plan and head back to Magneto. We are not aware if Stan Lee was already planning for the duo to switch sides and join the Avengers (less than 6 months away), but either way this is a nice example of long-term foreshadowing.

    In this issue:

    Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch decide to leave Magneto and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. They decide to meet with the Fantasic Four to see if they can advise them on how to make the transition to the side of the heroes. At the same time, the X-Men have released photos and details about the Brotherhood, including those of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. As a result, when the reluctant villains and aspiring heroes show up at the Fantasic Four’s headquarters, the Thing and the Human Torch are already primed to think that they are there with ill intent. They battle and, at the end of it, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch decide to return to Magneto, feeling that they are safer with him.

    Assumed before the next episode:

    People are confused as to what Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are planning.

    This episode takes place:

    After Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch‘s near transition to the heroes’ side.


    This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

    Episode 171: The Walls Are Closing In (Tales of Suspense #61 Part 1 + Journey Into Mystery #112) -- December 1964 Aug 10, 2022
    Show notes

    In this episode:

    Mike and Ed discuss the current situation with Tony Stark and Iron Man. Tony has been missing for over a month, and Iron Man is still in charge of Stark Enterprises, but the walls are closing in. Tony’s top lieutenants have quit the company, Iron Man is under a grand jury investigation, and Iron Man has also been suspended from the Avengers. Also: Why won’t the Avengers comment on the situation? When asked, Thor just went into a rant about how he was stronger than the Hulk. Is that is what is important right now?

    Behind the comics:

    Many of the comics in this era are in-universe responses to letters sent into Marvel. One of the common questions at the time was “who is stronger, Thor or Hulk?” Stan’s response was this issue, in which Thor tells the “previously untold story” of his battle with the Hulk in Avengers #3.

    In These Issues:

    Tales of Suspense #61

    Pepper Potts and Happy Hogan announce they are quitting and are unhappy that Tony Stark is missing and Iron Man has basically taken over the company. They speak to the police about the matter, and the newspapers find out about it, finally noticing that Tony Stark is missing and that Iron Man is now a suspect in his disappearance. Tony Stark, who is actually Iron Man, decides to deal with the situation. He decides the best way to do that is to appear to Happy as a sick Tony Stark who explains that Iron Man is in charge of the company on his behalf. Happy then supports the perspective that everything is legitimate. Meanwhile, the Mandarin uses a killer ray to attack the Earth. Specifically, to attack Iron Man, who escapes, although the news report that Tony’s home has been struck by a deadly ray of unknown origin. Tony Stark’s closest friends realize that and accept that Tony Stark is dead and Iron Man has taken over the company. Meanwhile, Iron Man fights the Mandarin and ends up being captured. The episode ends on a cliffhanger.

    Journey into Mystery #112

    People in the streets are debating whether Thor or the Hulk is stronger. Thor descends into the crowd and explains that he had a secret battle with the Hulk and after a pitched battle, the Hulk disappeared. He seems unable to honestly answer whether he was stronger then the Hulk.

    Assumed before the next episode:

    People are dumping StarkCorp stock.

    This episode takes place:

    Before the world thinks Tony is deceased.


    This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

    Episode 170: What is the Truth? (Fantastic Four #34 + Daredevil #5 Part 2) -- December 1964 Jul 20, 2022
    Show notes

    In this episode:

    Mike and Ed discuss the decision of Gregory Gideon (the richest man in the world) to donate all of his assets and holdings to charity. In a “normal” world, we would expect his heirs to question the decision and ask if he was being manipulated or going senile. In this new world of superpowers that we live in, shouldn’t someone be asking if he is being mind-controlled? Also: Reed Richards was mistaken for a Skrull and the Matador is NOT Daredevil. Who can we trust? What is the truth? Who decides?

    In these issues:

    Fantastic Four #34

    Gregory Gideon, one of the richest man in the world, decides to take defeat the Fantastic Four, as he appears to be bored with every other challenge. He sets up complicated scheme to turn the Fantastic Four against each other. While his plan is in motion, we are introduced to his son Thomas, whom he appears to actually love. In any event, Gideon manipulates the team to the point that they knock each other out. His son Thomas overhears the rest of his father’s plan to destroy the Fantastic Four, causing him to race over to warn them of the final stroke of the plan. Thomas is caught in the crossfire, which causes Gideon to realize the error of his ways. In penance, he renounces his fortune, turning over all of his wealth over to charity.

    Daredevil #5 Part 2

    The criminal Matador embarks on a crime spree in New York City. Daredevil takes it upon himself to track down the criminal. They fight, and the Matador comes out on top. The public venerates the Matador over Daredevil, even though he is clearly a criminal. In an attempt to bring him down, Matt Murdock, who is secretly Daredevil, announces that he is in fact the Matador. This leads to the Matador tracking down Matt, and meeting up with Daredevil. They fight, and Daredevil comes out on top.

    Assumed before the next issues:

    The public is questioning the business decisions of corporate titans, wondering who may be pulling their strings.

    This episode takes place:

    After Gideon announces that he is donating all of his money to charity, and just before he meets the consequences of his monumental decision.


    This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

    Episode 169: The Superhero Beat (Tales to Astonish #62) -- December 1964 Jul 13, 2022
    Show notes

    In this episode:

    Mike and Ed discuss Giant-Man’s exclusive interview with the Daily Bugle. What did the Bugle have to agree to in order to get the exclusive? Were there questions that were not asked? Or did Giant-Man choose to give the paper an exclusive because of their historically heavy superhero coverage? Also: What was the cause of the giant plant that almost destroyed the entire city? Is there going to be an investigation so that we can be assured it will not happen again? Or do we just count on Giant-Man to rip it out from the taproot each time it happens?

    Behind the comic:

    The Daily Bugle’s first appearance was in Marvel Mystery Comics #18 in 1941. In the Marvel Silver Age, the paper was first mentioned in Fantastic Four #2, but it quickly became central to the Spider-Man storylines. This issue was an uncommon example of the paper taking a more (somewhat) significant role in a non-Spider-Man issue, but mostly the paper is used as the generic “newspaper” anytime a paper or a reporter is needed in any New York-based story.

    In this issue:

    A criminal steals Giant-Man’s costume and technology and uses them to commit crimes. At the same time, Hank Pym has created a serum that is causing plans to grow out of control, creating a massive public safety issue. Fortunately, Giant-Man is able to steal his costume back and fix the plant problem.

    Assumed before the next issue:

    People are more wary of giant plants.

    This episode takes place:

    After Giant-Man has fixed the problem that he created.


    This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

    Episode 168: Fame by Any Means (Amazing Spider-Man #19 + Daredevil #5) -- December 1964 Jul 06, 2022
    Show notes

    In this episode:

    Mike and Ed discuss what drives superheroes. Why is Daredevil, a man without any superpowers, out there risking his life every day? Does he have a psychological problem? Is the claim that Daredevil is also the Matador legitimate? Does it just means he wants to be famous by being flashy on either side of the law? And how does this all relate to Spider-Man’s return to popularity?

    Behind the issues:

    The Spider-Man issue wraps up the “Spider-Man is a coward” 3-issue thread. Meanwhile in Daredevil, the first four issues of the series were drawn by a mix of different artists. Daredevil #5 marks the beginning of the “permanent” art of Wallace Wood. Daredevil’s costume is superficially the same (still the yellow-and-black), but Wallace is not afraid to make some small changes (with no in-world explanation for those changes). Wallace will soon go on to make more substantial changes, including the famous red costume in issue #7, but this is the issue where he starts testing the waters to see what he can get away with.

    In these issues:

    Amazing Spider-Man #19

    The Daily Bugle says that Spider-Man is washed up, but he’s not. He’s out fighting crime in dynamic fashion. Meanwhile, the Human Torch is overwhelmed by Sandman and the Enforcers. Spider-Man then battles this gang of thugs but their fight is broken up when the police arrive. Eventually, Spider-Man tracks down the criminals and fights them again, freeing the Human Torch and defeating the gang.

    Daredevil #5

    The criminal Matador embarks on a crime spree in New York City. Daredevil takes it upon himself to track down the criminal. They fight, and the matador comes out on top. The public venerates the Matador over Daredevil even though he is clearly a criminal. In an attempt to bring him down, Matt Murdock, who is secretly Daredevil, announces that he is in fact the Matador. This leads to the Matador tracking down Matt, and meeting up with Daredevil. They fight, and Daredevil comes out on top.

    Assumed before the next issues:

    The public is wondering if there were wrong about Spider-Man and Daredevil and should in fact grateful to the two heroes.

    This episode takes place:

    After public sentiment seems to have turned in favor of Spider-Man and Daredevil. Before Daredevil’s battle with the Matador.


    This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

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