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31. How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge with Author and Pastor, Clay Scroggins **Transcription Below** Luke 16:10 (NIV) “Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much” Clay Scroggins is the lead pastor of North Point Community Church, providing visionary and directional leadership for all of the local church staff and congregation. Clay works for Andy Stanley and understands firsthand how to manage the tension of leading when you're not in charge. Starting out as a facilities intern, he has worked his way through many organizational levels at North Point Ministries and knows all too well the challenge of authority deprivation. Clay holds a degree in Industrial Engineering from Georgia Tech as well as a master's degree and a doctorate with an emphasis in Online Church from Dallas Theological Seminary. He lives in Forsyth County, Georgia, with his wife, Jenny, and their five children. At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in. We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Clay’s Website Clay’s Book Find Clay on social media platforms @clayscroggins North Point Community Church The First 90 Days by Michael D. Watkins The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg 360-Survey to Ask Others About Yourself: 1. What did I do over the past few years that inspired you? 2. What did I do that frustrated you? 3. What do I not know about myself that has become a blind spot? Thank You to Our Sponsor: A Perfect Promotion Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast! Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“ Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“ Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” **Transcription** [00:00:00] <music> Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. [00:00:17] <music> Laura Dugger: A Perfect Promotion is a promotional marketing company with locations in Illinois and Indiana. They specialize in logoed items as well as screen printing and embroidery. Contact them through their website, aperfectpromotion.com, and let A Perfect Promotion help you with your next business event or promotion. Today is going to be a special episode because my husband, Mark Dugger, is going to join as a co-host today, and our guest is Clay Scroggins. Mark Dugger: Clay and I go back to our days at Georgia Tech. I always remember Clay being an impressive leader, but he's since gone on to be the lead pastor for North Point Community Church's campus in Alpharetta, Georgia. He has recently come out with a new book titled, How to Lead When You're Not in Charge: Leveraging Influence When You Lack Authority. We're really excited to talk with Clay today. Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Clay. Clay Scroggins: Thank you, Laura. It's a pleasure to get to be here. Thanks. [00:01:25] Laura Dugger: Well, are you willing just to start us off by sharing a bit about your journey before coming on staff with North Point? Clay Scroggins: Sure. I have done a few podcasts along this process of writing a book, but I have not done one with someone that I have known as long as Mark Dugger. So I have to be super truthful and honest about my background. Mark Dugger: We're going to be double-checking everything. Clay Scroggins: No, I'm not actually tempted to lie, but I do have to be extra honest. So yeah, I grew up in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Great family, parents that were loving and terrific and, older sister, younger sister. So I am the only boy with an older sister, younger sister. I felt very comfortable in shopping malls. They do a lot of shopping those two. Moved to Atlanta in 1998 to go to Georgia Tech. That's where me and Mark met. Go Jackets. Mark was one of the most sought-after recruits in the Georgia Tech fraternity system in 2000. [00:02:30] I majored in industrial and systems engineering. I was not very good at it. I say this about my situation, and it's not a joke. This actually happened. I knew I was going to do professional ministry. I knew I wanted to be a pastor, I don't know, maybe at least halfway through my college experience. So I was trying to finish this engineering degree, and it was not going very well. There were some classes that I felt like I needed to take over again just because I hadn't started the content yet, and the school agreed. So I'm in the registrar's office telling this lady, "Ma'am, I really need to get out of here." At Georgia Tech, you don't say you graduated. You say, "What year did you get out?" So I said to her, I said, "Look, I don't even want to be an engineer. I just need to get this degree because I'm trying to go to grad school." I said, "Why don't we do a deal? You will promise to give me this degree, I will promise to never use it." That was the exchange we made and an agreement was reached. [00:03:32] I ended up passing those classes, finished Georgia Tech in 2003, promptly moved to Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, Texas, which is where I met my gorgeous, lovely, awesome, amazing wife, Jenny. We got married and moved to Atlanta. It was back to Atlanta for me, but it was a big deal for Jenny because she grew up in Texas. I was raised in Texas, went to college in Texas, so to move to Atlanta was a pretty significant move. I started working at North Point Community Church. I did student ministry for about five years, and then I have been a campus pastor for the last eight years. And the last four of those, I've been at North Point Community Church, which is our original campus. We have five kids. We've got a nine, seven, five, three, and a one-year-old, and we are having a great time. A lot of activity, but a lot of good, a lot of exciting things. That's my life. [00:04:34] Laura Dugger: That's an incredible backstory. Now moving on to your book, Mark and I have both read this. Great job, by the way. Clay Scroggins: Thank you. Laura Dugger: Who would you say is your target audience? And what is one main thing that you want them to walk away with after completing your book? Clay Scroggins: I never set out to write a book, definitely did not set out to write a leadership book. But Andy's got this, Andy Stanley, my boss, actually my boss's boss, he's got a bunch of things that he says often. But one of the things that I feel like has really shaped our organization, our church, is that we are not responsible to fill up the cups of other people, we're just responsible to empty our own. That's the way we try to lead, and it's the way we try to live, and it's the way we try to operate as a church. So this book was really just an opportunity for me to empty my cup and here's everything I know about my professional journey. [00:05:37] Honestly, I wrote it for people like myself. I wrote it for people who were in a church context who were trying to get their senior pastor to do church the way they thought it needed to be done. Throughout the process, I started realizing that church people, pastoral people, are not the only kinds of people that feel this tension of authority deprivation, but it's really.. I mean, it's rampant in every organization. So it's been an interesting process because I think writing it for a church audience, I thought that's who would be the audience. But as it turns out, most of the speaking stuff that I've done as a result of the book has been to business leaders, non-profit organizations, for-profit organizations. And that's been a whole lot of fun. To answer your question, what do I want for people? My hope would be that if somebody could read this book or digest some of the content, it would allow someone to be able to get to the point where they really could believe that influence is what leadership really is, and it would equip them enough to where they would feel like they could be dropped into any organization at any level at any point in time and make a difference, move an idea forward, or make a change, or create positive impact. That's what I hope for people. [00:06:54] Mark Dugger: And I love that your book is written in Clay Scroggins, meaning that it's in your language. I can definitely hear you speaking it as it's written. Clay Scroggins: Oh, well, thank you. Honestly, I think I wrote about two or three chapters. I have my boss to credit for that because I sent him a couple of the chapters and he came by my office a couple days later and he's like, "Hey, I read the chapters you sent me. It's good, it's good. You need to be you. You need to just be yourself." And I was like, "Huh." I mean, I don't have a problem being myself, but I think originally I just thought, Oh, I need to sound like a leadership person. And I'm not really a leader. I mean, I enjoy having a good time and enjoy laughing and I'm not super serious most of the time. I thanked him in the little acknowledgement section up front because I feel like it was so significant for me to get to the point where I could go, "Okay, I've got to be me. I can't write like I think a leadership book is supposed to be."[00:07:52] Now the book, I've had numerous people who've said, hey, I was at a pilot truck stop or a Flying J truck stop and I saw your book. I think initially that kind of made me cringe because no one ever dreams about being in a truck stop. But I really fancy it as helpful leadership content for the average person. That's what it is. Mark Dugger: That's awesome. I've started recommending this as a resource to my team at our Chick-fil-A restaurant. How large is your organization to give some context at North Point? Clay Scroggins: So we're in Atlanta, we have six churches in the Atlanta area, and we have about 600 employees all in. At the campus that I lead, we have about 110 employees. On any given Sunday, we'll have 10 or 11,000 people at the location that I'm at. In total, we'll have, I don't know, maybe like 30, 32,000 at all of our campuses on a Sunday. So it is a large... You know, from a business side, I would say it's mid-sized business. But it's definitely a large church in the church world. [00:09:02] Mark Dugger: Wow. So in that large of an organization, when you're talking about this idea of leveraging influence when you lack authority, how do you incorporate that into your organization's culture? Clay Scroggins: Well, I can't take credit for implementing this as an organization. I would say this began by me personally going, Okay, I don't know that I can make other people do this, but I know for me, in order for me to be able to have influence... I mean, it started as a selfish thing. If I'm going to get people to listen to what I think we ought to do, then I've got to learn to cultivate influence with them because I don't have authority over them. I would say it began more of a personal journey or voyage for myself. And then I think over time, what happens is people start to see, okay, well, he's not in charge of everything, but he shifted the plans for next Sunday or even the plans for next year or the agenda for, you know, how we're going to operate. And so maybe I can as well. I think what I've learned is that modeling it, I mean, that's the most effective way to change a culture anyway. And it's really the only place to begin is to say, hey, well, I can't change everything, but what I can change, what I'm most in charge of is myself. So I think it begins with me. It begins with you. It begins with each of us as individuals. [00:10:19] I don't remember what chapter it is now. Maybe one of the first chapters, I call it the Oasis of Excellence, that every one of us has to figure out what am I most in charge of? Just because you're not in charge doesn't mean you can't take charge. And every one of us is in charge of something. And what every one of us is definitely in charge of is me, is ourself, is my own agency as a person. You got to start there by modeling. Then secondly, you know, celebrating it in other people is another important way to help others see that this is of value. At every staff meeting we have, I try to bring up an example of someone who changed something that they weren't in charge of. Because to me, that's the greatest way that you know the culture is being affected by influence an…
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