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    The Resilient Lawyer with Jeena Cho

    The Resilient Lawyer podcast is inspired by those in the legal profession living with authenticity and courage. You’ll meet lawyers, entrepreneurs, mentors and teachers successfully bridging the gap between their personal and professional lives, connecting the dots between their mental, emotional, physical and spiritual selves. This podcast is about ordinary people making an extraordinary difference.

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    Latest Episodes:
    [Bonus Episode] Guided Meditation: Letting Go of Stress and Anxiety Apr 20, 2018
    Show notes

    Learn more and register here.

    How would you like to improve your legal practice and increase your well being, in only 6 minutes per day? I can show you how to build a more sustainable, peaceful and productive law practice with just a tiny investment of your time.

    I'm excited to introduce you to my new online course, "Mindful Pause: 6 Minutes to Better Lawyering."

    Who is Mindful Pause for?

    It's for lawyers who want to find a better way to create a more sustainable, joyful and fulfilling law practice. Often, we as lawyers are not taught healthy behaviors or tools for managing the stress, anxiety and the daily pressures. Mindful Pause will create an accessible and enjoyable entry into practices that can reduce anxiety, improve focus and clarity, and enrich the quality of life.

    [Learn More]


    RL 83: Laura Mahr— Neuroscience and Mindfulness: Becoming More Resilient Apr 02, 2018
    Show notes

    In this episode, I am excited to have Laura Mahr on to talk about resilience and the link between neuroscience and mindfulness to the practice of law. Laura Mahr is the founder of Conscious Legal Minds LLC, providing mindfulness and neuroscience-based coaching, training, and consulting for attorneys and law offices nationwide. Laura's cutting-edge work to build resilience to burnout, stress, and vicarious trauma in the practice of law is informed by 11 years of practice as a civil sexual assault attorney, two decades of experience as an educator and professional trainer, and 25 years as a student and teacher of mindfulness and yoga, and a love of neuroscience. Topics Covered Laura starts the episode by talking on how her past helped her find her personal definition of resilience and how it works in the context of her work, as well as neuroscience and how it shaped how she views her control over herself. How she utilizes her knowledge of neuroscience to help her feel more comfortable, confident, and resilient in the courtroom. The connection between neuroscience and mindfulness and how they play into the practice of law. She also talks about her daily practice of self-care and how she increases her ability to be more resilient. Tools for utilizing mindfulness and neuroscience to help lawyers to build resilience to stress. Resources mentioned: Hardwiring Happiness Bouncing Back Find Laura at her website: Conscious Legal Minds Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Laura Mahr: [00:00:01] Yeah, whether we're in the courtroom or in our families or just out on the street, right it's really, there's so much unknown at any turn. But the more safe we can feel inside of ourselves, the more connected we can feel inside of ourselves, the more content we're going to be, the more satisfaction we're going to have. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:42] Hello my friend, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I am so happy to have Laura Mahr. She is the founder of Conscious Legal Minds, providing mindfulness and neuroscience-based coaching training and consulting for attorneys and law firms nationwide. Laura's cutting-edge work to build resilience to burnout, stress, and vicarious trauma and the practice of law is informed by 11 years of practice as a civil sexual assault attorney, two decades of experience as an educator and professional trainer, and 25 years as a student and teacher of mindfulness and yoga, and a love of neuroscience. [00:01:23] Before we get into the interview, if we haven't heard the last bonus episode please go back and check it out. I shared a 6-minute mindfulness practice that you can do to let go of stress and anxiety. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they don't have the time. So I want to create a program that would make it very easy to fit into the busy lawyer’s schedule, at just six minutes a day for 31 days. So give it a try and see for yourself, the benefits and the impact of having a regular mindfulness practice. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Laura. Laura, welcome to the show. Laura Mahr: [00:02:05] Thanks Jeena, it's really, really great to be here. I love your podcast and I'm so happy to be part of it. Jeena Cho: [00:02:11] Thank you. So let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Laura Mahr: [00:02:18] I am a resilience coach and a trainer and a consultant. I work with individual lawyers and law firms and I train big groups of lawyers in North Carolina and around the country on issues related to resilience, burnout prevention, and ways to mitigate vicarious trauma. Jeena Cho: [00:02:40] For the listeners that aren't perhaps familiar, when you talk about resilience what does that mean? Laura Mahr: [00:02:46] To me, resilience is really the ability to experience a stressful situation, whether it's an external stress like a statute of limitations or running out of time or having to face a judge that's really challenging, or it could be an internal stress like perfectionism or the feeling of not being confident enough, and to go through a situation and make it out the other side not only alive but better than you were when you went in. So it's really the ability to bounce back from any kind of stressor better than you were before it happened. Jeena Cho: [00:03:27] Was there a person or an experience that led you to be curious about resilience and how to incorporate it into your life? Laura Mahr: [00:03:38] Yeah, definitely. I went to law school, I chose to go to law school after being a full-time meditation and yoga instructor. So I'd already studied a lot about breathing; I taught three hour-long workshops on how to breathe and I taught long meditation classes and I learned a lot in that about what it means to be resilient, and different things that we can do, whether it's a yoga practice or breathing practice. And so I went to law school and I had already done all of that. And so I thought, I'm going to just fly through law school; I have all of these great skills. And very quickly into law school, I realized that I'd gotten in way over my head, that law school was really a bigger challenge than I'd ever experienced before. And my personal resilience, though I didn't even know the term at the time this was early 2000's (I didn't know what resilience even was or what a lack of it meant) I just knew that I was really struggling and I wasn't enjoying the experience like I had hoped I would. And I went through law school; I ended up having a really great experience by the time I graduated. I met a lot of really great people and had a lot of really inspiring internships. But then I got into law and I became one of the first lawyers in the country to work with sexual assault and sexual harassment of farmworker women, so migrant farm workers that are experiencing sexual harassment on the job. [00:05:16] And from there I went on to really become a sexual assault attorney and a trainer for the Office on Violence Against Women on issues related to sexual violence. And through that experience for a decade, working with survivors, I worked with women on the streets as well, women experiencing homelessness, and a lot of other really highly vulnerable populations. And through that experience and through having a job that is dealing with sexual assault, dealing with sexual harassment, dealing with trauma all of the time, I experienced a lower resilience. And again, I didn't know what resilience was, I didn't know what a lack of resilience was. I just knew that for me personally, I didn't have that kind of energy that I wanted to have and that I was used to having at the end of the day. And it wasn't the kind of energy that I could just get a good night's sleep and feel like, oh and bounce back to that kind of Laura Mahr that I knew myself to be. And so it was really through going through my own kind of vicarious trauma experience, through my own level of burnout, that I came to be interested in what this thing called resilience is, and ultimately what is neuroscience and how does that help us lawyers. Jeena Cho: [00:06:39] When you were going through this experience, what were some of the signs that perhaps something isn't quite right or that is something that you needed to pay attention to? Laura Mahr: [00:06:51] For me, more than anything it was really fatigue. I loved my job, I loved what I did, I loved the people I worked with, and I was really passionate and still am passionate about sexual assault survivor’s rights and bringing justice into people's lives that have experienced sexual harassment. And so it wasn't a lack of passion, though for a lot of people that experience burnout it can be this slow erosion of their energy or their enthusiasm that over time results in feeling out of balance in one or more areas of their life. And for me, I felt really good at work, I liked what I did. And at home, I had you know a vibrant travel and I did all of those things. But for me, it was really this feeling of being tired all the time, and not having the kind of energy that I was used to having when I practiced. Jeena Cho: [00:07:51] So you sort of realize, "Oh I'm tired all the time." And then what was sort of the next step that you took, once you realized that your energy level isn't where it used to be? Laura Mahr: [00:08:05] I started looking at ways to get my energy back, so I did a lot of Eastern medicine, which included yoga and meditation, as well as acupuncture and herbs and things like that, and that helped to an extent. I also tried a couple of different modalities of like, EMDR, which is a trauma release therapy. And I tried internal family systems therapy, which is a way to deal with trauma and vicarious trauma. So I tried some mental health approaches, I tried some medicine. I didn't try any Western medicine; I really am more of an Eastern medicine kind of person. And I tried to exercise and I tried to eat right. And I really tried the resources that were out there for me at that time. [00:09:01] Well ultimately, I decided that I really needed to stop practicing law altogether. So I kind of tried all these things, and I still wasn't able to get my energy to a place where I felt like I was really engaged in life enthusiastically. And so I took a really radical step for me personally; I was very wrapped up and am very passionate about women's rights and the rights of sexual assault survivors, and so it was hard for me to step away. But I did. Jeena Cho: [00:09:35] Yeah, and also as lawyers we tend to identify so much of who we are with what we do and having that title of a lawyer. What was that journey to figuring out, you know maybe law practice isn't right for me and I'm going to do something different? I mean, that's a huge step. Laura Mahr: [00:09:55] Yeah, and it's one of the things I see, I saw in myself and I also see in the clients that I work with. Which is, if I don't do law what am I going to do? And I put all of this money and all of this time to go through law school, and to learn all these skills. And when we're in it we don't see how transferable our skills are, and we also don't see our options. And that's one of the things about burnout, is really feeling like you're in a closed system. It's sort of black or white; it's like this or nothing. And for me, thinking about it being sort of this or nothing, it gave me a feeling of being trapped and I really needed some more options. And for me, that meant taking some time off to really explore what my options are. Jeena Cho: [00:10:48] When you say you took time to explore your options, what did you do? Were there specific things that you did to sort of figure out what the umbrella or the scope of all the different things that you could do looked like? Laura Mahr: [00:11:03] Yeah. Well, the first thing that I did when I decided to take time off is I started to sleep. And I really underestimated, from the time I went to law school through my decade of being an attorney, I really underestimated the power of integration and restoration that happens with sleep. I was one of those people that was like, oh you know I'm pretty good during law school on three or four hours of sleep. And it was more important to me always to get work done than it was to sleep. And so one of the first things that I did when I when I decided to take my sabbatical was to start getting a lot of rest. And that really helped, and that just helped me feel a lot more calm and a lot more vital. And I started being like, oh I actually have energy and interest in a lot of things. And one of the things that really drew my attention was, what does it mean to be resilient? So this term resilient then kind of came into my world, and I was like, oh this is a cool term. [00:12:11] Oh yeah, that's exactly what I'm lacking here; I'm lacking resilience. And so I started to read about resilience, and then I started to really get into neuroscience. And I realized that for me, that was the missing link. So I knew how to meditate, I knew how to do yoga, I knew how to exercise, I knew how to eat right. I went to the acupuncturists, I got massages, I did all of these things; but it was really my thoughts and beliefs that had kind of taken me over, versus me being able to channel them so that I was feeling well when I was thinking. And that was really the turning point for me, is when I realized that there were ways that I could train my mind and my body and my emotions to work for me instead of working against me. Jeena Cho: [00:13:05] What did that training look like? Laura Mahr: [00:13:09] For me, it involved pretty much reading every single book I could about neuroscience and mindfulness, and then practicing all of the techniques. I also listen to a lot of TED talks and podcasts and just immersed myself in the subject of resilience and neuroscience. I also trained in internal family systems therapy, which is a really neuroscience-based therapy that I was using myself, and then I got to understand this is why this works so well. And so I use that a lot with my clients, is really helping to understand what parts of me are saying what, and when they say that how does it feel, and then what's the emotional response to that. So let me give an example so maybe people can understand. [00:13:57] Let's say I'm in a courtroom and I'm just about to try my case. And I'm not breathing very well, I'm nervous; I'm not sure how this is going to go. I don't have a lot of control over a lot of things, including what my client is going to say, what the judge is going to do, what opposing counsel is going to say. I don't even have control over the lights, the sound; I don't have control over most anything. So I can start telling myself, "This might not go well. What if this happens and what if that happens and what if all these terrible things happen?" So there's my mind going off on all these terrible things that can happen. And when my mind starts saying all these terrible things are happening, then my body starts to respond: my stomach starts to clench, my shoulders start to hunch, my throat starts to close, and I start having this experience of feeling unsafe in the moment. Like emotionally unsafe, physically unsafe, like my fight or flight response starts to kick in. Like either get out of the courtroom or give it all you've got, but not from a relaxed place, from a stressed place. And when that happens, then my emotional experience is one of displeasure, not of well-being. I'm n…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    RL 82: Gina Biegel — Redefining Mindfulness for the Next Generation Mar 26, 2018
    Show notes

    In this episode, I am excited to have Gina Biegel on to talk about redefining mindfulness in the 21st century and the idea of positive neuroplasticity. Gina Biegel is a psychotherapist, researcher, speaker, and author in the San Francisco Bay Area who specializes in mindfulness-based work with adolescents. She is the founder of Stressed Teens, which has been offering mindfulness-based stress reduction for teens to adolescents, families, schools, professionals, and the community for over a decade. She created MBSR-T to help teens in a large HMO's outpatient department of child and adolescent psychiatry whose physical and psychological symptoms were not responding satisfactorily to a multitude of other evidence-based practices. An expert and pioneer in bringing mindfulness-based approaches to youth, she is the author of multiple works on the subject, she provides worldwide multi-day training and intensive ten-week online training, and she works with teens and families individually and in groups. Her work has been featured on CNN and Reuters, and in the New York Times. Topics Covered Gina kicks the episode off by talking about how she got interested in mindfulness and easy ways of making mindfulness accessible to all people, especially for those with time constraints, and how that ties into her work. She also dives into the "Body Scan" practice and the two types of mindfulness practice: formal and informal. Defining mindfulness for those in the 21st century and positive neuroplasticity, the benefits and pitfalls of introducing yoga and mindful practices to children/teenagers, and why the need for mindfulness for young people today is more relevant now than ever before, given the political and social climate. She wraps the show up talking about her new book Be Mindful and Stress Less: 50 Ways to Deal with Your Crazy Life. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Gina Biegel: [00:00:06] I think we tend to put ourselves down that totem pole and put everybody else first and doing things for other people. And we all know that you can't take care of others until you take care of yourself. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode I have Gina Biegel, who is a psychotherapist. She's a researcher, speaker, and author in the San Francisco Bay area. She specializes in mindfulness-based work with adolescents. Her work has been featured in CNN, Reuters, and in The New York Times. Today we're going to do something slightly different. Gina has written a new book, "Be mindful and Stress Less: 50 Ways to Deal with Your Crazy Life," and she has very generously offered to give away five copies of the book. You can get a free copy of the book shipped directly to you by retweeting this episode and tagging me, so head on over to Twitter and share this post and tag me. It's @Jeena_Cho. So if you would like a free copy of "Be mindful and Stress Less," and who doesn't want to be more mindful and stress less, go ahead and share the episode and tag me on the tweet. [00:01:49] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't heard the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation to let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness, and perhaps Jeena will offer some advice on how to make mindfulness a daily habit. So I wanted to create a course that would make it easy for lawyers to fit in a daily mindfulness and meditation practice. So it's just six minutes a day for 31 days. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Gina. Gina, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Gina Biegel: [00:02:30] Hi Jeena, thanks for having me. Jeena Cho: [00:02:31] You know I don't think I've ever had another Jeena on the podcast, so this is great. Gina Biegel: [00:02:35] Yeah, when you just mentioned your name I was confused for a minute. I was like, wait a minute I know your name is Jeena, but hearing it was kind of funny. So we can savor that moment and take it in, Gina power. Jeena Cho: [00:02:50] So let's get started by having you tell the listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do. Gina Biegel: [00:02:57] Sure. So I'm a psychotherapist, as you know, a marriage family therapist. I've had about 15 years experience as a psychotherapist with doing a lot of family therapy, and a particular focus with working with teens, teens of all types. So those that "normal" or those that don't actually have a mental health disease or disorder, and then those who are really experiencing a lot of distress and have a lot of mental health difficulties. I've also worked in the inner city, I've worked with young people of privilege, and in both clinical and educational settings. And mostly in the United States, but North America and also elsewhere outside of the country. [00:03:40] Something that struck me was that you were just saying, you know that lawyers feel the need like they should practice. And I too, you know just because I am a practitioner of mindfulness I am by no means perfect, and I think it's really important to share that. A lot of us have our ebbs and flows and our waxes and wanes with how much we practice, and the thing is noticing when we don't and trying not to judge our judge. Because then we could start judging the fact that we're judging ourselves for not practicing. And although my book is technically for teens and young adults, I think it's completely appropriate for all people; for people who are on the go, people who don't have a lot of time, who want to bring mindfulness into their life and get benefit from it but not spending 45 to 60 minutes a day sitting on a cushion. Jeena Cho: [00:04:30] Yeah, yeah. How did you become interested in this topic of mindfulness? Gina Biegel: [00:04:35] Yeah. You know it was not something I was planning on really. I was in grad school at Santa Clara University, and one of my professors Shawna Shapiro is a prolific researcher in the MBSR, mindfulness-based stress reduction for adults. And I started learning about it through her, and then through that was trained by Jon Kabat-Zinn and Saki Santorelli, and then I started getting really immersed in it. And seeing how it was benefiting me personally and really changing my life, and helping me with my own type-A personality really. I always, when I think of what I do now I always think of this old commercial, the Hair Club for Men commercial. And if you don't know this commercial, it's this guy who has this Hair Club for Men business and he says, "I'm not only a member, I'm also the founder," meaning he uses his own products and it's his business. So when I created the mindfulness-based stress reduction for teens program, it's like not only am I the creator of this program but I'm also a member. Meaning I need to practice mindfulness myself, it's helped me and it helps me in my life all the time. Jeena Cho: [00:05:49] What were some of the personal benefits that you've gained from practicing mindfulness on a regular basis? Gina Biegel: [00:05:56] Yeah, I think the thing that's helped me the most is quieting the to-do list. I was one of those people that would lay down at night and just kind of go over all the things I had to do, because when you're a professional and you're busy it's hard to turn that off. And so when I brought mindfulness practices into my life, particularly the body scan practice, it really got me out of that to-do list. And then the other practice with that that helped me was just, sometimes a pain just wants to be heard; sometimes your to-do list just wants to be acknowledged. It's like, okay I'm thinking of my to-do list right now. Okay, thank you for sharing, and its here right now. Instead of this aversion to it, or this clinging to it, it's more of this witnessing it; it's here, okay. And by witnessing it kind of takes that power out of it, to make it that attachment to continue thinking about it. So that has helped me a lot. Also, just how do you bring mindfulness into everything you're doing? [00:07:01] You know, you're awake for let's say 16 hours a day. There are two types of mindfulness practice: formal and informal. Let's say formal practice is setting a specific amount of time aside to practice mindfulness. Well, let's say in 16 hour waking day I spent a half hour on formal practice; there are still 15 and a half hours left in the day for me to be bringing mindfulness to everything I'm doing, which is informal practice. And so for me, its how do I make it accessible and tangible and understandable, so that I can be applying it to everything I'm doing throughout my day? Jeena Cho: [00:07:39] And how do you remind yourself to bring yourself back into the present moment throughout the day? Gina Biegel: [00:07:46] Because I've been practicing a long time now, I almost envision this kind of anchor in my body, this anchor in my chest. Or I think of the things that are always constants with us; the grounding focal points, our breath, our heart rate, our heart rate variability. But also things like our fingers have a lot of sensations in them and a lot of nerves in them, so if you just put your hands in the air you can feel something. So it's like, how do you constantly shift out of the thinking and the doing, and then it's the shift back to my body. The shift back to my feet and walking on the ground, or feeling the air around my fingers. And then as my thoughts wander, it's this kind of witnessing, this invitation to return back to this moment. It's like you're in a rowboat and you're kind of going about in the ocean, and you drop your anchor and it holds your boat, hopefully in place. It helps ground you. [00:08:45] So when you're learning the practices that you teach, when you're learning the practices that you might read in my book, you're going to learn different ways to get back to that anchor using what works for you. And so to me it's about practicing different things, and finding the things that really ground you the most, that center you the most, that are the most tangible for you. I think a lot of times when I was first learning mindfulness, sitting practice was the crown jewel and you needed to sit and you needed to do it for a certain amount of time. And what I've come to learn is that to be honest, sitting practice isn't my thing. Walking practice I really love, focusing on my body and getting out of my head I really love. Spending time in nature or flower arranging or whatever self-care activities fill me up, those are the things that I turn to. Which might not be what some other practitioners might say is the most beneficial, but they are for me. And so it's making a program for yourself that you're going to have the most success at practicing. Because if you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole it's not going to work. Jeena Cho: [00:10:05] Yeah. That's why I think there is so much value in just the experimentation process itself, like trying various types of meditation or different practices, and figuring out what works for you. And I know when I work with lawyers, there can be a lot of discouragement or self-criticism that says you know, I shouldn't be focusing on doing meditation or I should be doing that. But if that's just not your thing, but it's also going to take a little bit of practice to know what you like. Gina Biegel: [00:10:40] And experimentation. It's your willingness to do things more than once. I always ask teens to practice a practice more than once, at least a handful of times. And the same is true for us adults, over time our practice changes and develops as we change and develop. So maybe a practice that wasn't really something you resonated to at the beginning, I encourage you after time, after being practicing mindfulness for longer, to try some of the other practices that might not have fit for you. Because as you grow and change they might very well be a good fit for you. Jeena Cho: [00:11:18] Yeah, I definitely noticed when I was going through the MBSR class that I hated doing the body scan, because I was so detached from my body. I would listen to a guided meditation and it would be like, okay bring all of your attention to your left foot. And I'm like, what does that even mean? I know I have a left foot, I know I have toes, but feeling your left toe I don't know that I have any sensation there. And I found that really distressing, but after a while I was like oh, I'm really just disconnected from the body. And I think a lot of lawyers are, I think we tend to highly value our intellect and that's the space that we live in. Can you talk about why it is important to actually connect with the body? For the lawyers that are out there that are like, I just use my mind for everything, why should I care about my body, why does it matter? Gina Biegel: [00:12:14] Our thoughts unfortunately can be like fake news sometimes, they're not always the most accurate and they're not always the most forgiving or nice to us. So for me, it's helping me because (I'm not a lawyer but I'm definitely a thinker as well and I'm up in my head a lot) it helps me to get into my body. Because usually our body gives off a lot of red flags and a lot of information that we might not pay attention to, and it's also information that's usually much more honest. [00:12:47] Pain, red flags signals our body gives us is actually there for a reason, and sometimes we don't listen to it and we don't tune into it until it's like a pot of boiling water that's overflowing. So if we start checking in with our body and how we feel physically; do we have a headache that we didn't notice we had, do we have a stomachache or are our muscles tense or tight? Are we sitting with our shoulders really high up towards our head, are we holding our jaw tight or teeth clenched? And if we're not really paying attention to those things, we're missing opportunities to engage in well-being for ourselves, and in and being for ourselves. Jeena Cho: [00:13:27] Yeah, I remember I was working with a somatic therapist of some sort, and the first time I went in to meet her (because I was having really bad anxiety) she goes, "Well where in your body do you feel anxiety?" And I was like, what, what are you talking about where do I feel it?! No, it's totally up in the head. And of course, that'…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    RL 81: Megan Zavieh— Mental Health: Investing Time Today to Avoid Malpractice Tomorrow Mar 19, 2018
    Show notes

    In this episode, I am excited to have Megan Zavieh on to talk about mental health and well-being, and how to pick up on symptoms and handle yourself appropriately. Megan Zavieh is a lawyer for lawyers, saving careers through attorney discipline defense. She also advises bar applicants on moral character issues and takes moral character appeals to trial. Megan is the creator of The Playbook: The California Bar Discipline System Practice Guide, the only practice guide for defending discipline cases in California. The Playbook is an innovative online platform through which self-represented state bar respondents can meet each other, obtain sample court filings, and access the practice guide. In addition to defending lawyers, Megan also advises them when they want to expand their practices in new business models or through new methods of delivering legal services. She is also a speaker on legal ethics and a prolific writer. Her work can be found on Lawyerist, Attorney at Work, and her own blog CaliforniaStateBarDefense.com. Topics Covered The spectrum of mental health issues that plague lawyers, from addiction to depression and more. She also delves into the emotional trauma and baggage that comes with being an effective lawyer. Telltale signs of mental health issues and how mental health issues are sometimes handled within the attorney discipline system (sometimes "help" is worse than not seeking it). How mental health symptoms begin to show at work and how you can stop the spread of problems before it gets too bad for you and your clients. She also talks on thinking about treating time for mental wellness as an investment: a poor mental state can lead to a higher risk of losing clients or malpractice which can have detrimental effects on your career. Do's and Don'ts when facing disciplinary action, and resources for attorneys facing a mental health crisis. For more information on Megan, find her at the following links: Twitter Blog Podcast Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Jeena Cho: [00:00:02] Hello my friends, welcome to another episode of The Resilient Lawyer Podcast. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Megan Zavieh, who is a lawyer for lawyers. She is saving careers through attorney discipline defense. She also advises bar applicants on moral character issues and takes moral character appeals to trial. Megan is a creator of The Playbook: The California Bar Discipline System Practice Guide, the only practice guide for defending discipline cases in California. She is a speaker on legal ethics and a prolific writer. [00:00:39] Before we get into the interview, in case you haven't heard by now, the Mindful Pause program is up and running and going out into the universe. It's a 31-day program to help you develop and cultivate a mindfulness practice. Every module is just six minutes long for the very busy lawyers out there, and I'm sure Megan and I will chat about the importance of maintaining our mental well-being. Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your very hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Megan. Megan, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Megan Zavieh: [00:01:25] Hi Jeena, thank you for having me. Jeena Cho: [00:01:27] So let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction to who you are and what you do. Megan Zavieh: [00:01:34] Well what I do is I help lawyers who are facing bar discipline, that's the biggest part of what I do. I also deal with the fallout of personal crises of lawyers through, whether it's a moral character issue, when a lawyer tries to move into another state, or simply a discipline problem or trying to get reinstated after a discipline problem that led to disbarment. But basically all of my work is about saving lawyer's careers, and so whatever facet of the discipline system or regulatory system they end up falling into, I try and help my colleagues come back from things that have plagued them. Jeena Cho: [00:02:16] And what are some of the common issues that you see that plague lawyers? Megan Zavieh: [00:02:22] Well one of the biggest ones is depression. And that's one that we do not talk about enough, if you ask me. A lot of our fellow lawyers suffer from it. It's also not always necessarily clinical depression, but burnout. I tend to put them in one category, but they're not synonymous. But the overwork and the lack of taking care of themselves, which leads to lawyers being overburdened. There's also a huge financial component to that. Lawyers who have struggled to maintain their practices profitably end up sort of in a downward spiral. And that's a very common thing in my cases, where lawyers were financially struggling so they took work they really shouldn't have. Maybe they couldn't handle the work for whatever reason, but the finances are why they took it. Then they fall off their duties, not being able to fulfill what they need to do for their clients, which leads to depression and other psychological problems. Which leads them to fall even further behind on their clients, ultimately leading to discipline. Jeena Cho: [00:03:30] So how does that cycle typically begin? I don't know if you're sort of involved with the lawyers early enough to be able to say, but is it that they feel overworked and then that leads to depression, or is it that they're already suffering from depression, therefore they can't handle their caseload? Megan Zavieh: [00:03:49] I think a lot of us, its depression caused by the profession. So some certainly come into the profession already struggling, you know particularly military veterans who are suffering from PTSD who then get into law, which is incredibly stressful. And the two don't mix well. But I think an awful lot, they begin with profession-related problems. So for example, if you practice in a particularly emotional and stressful area, the substance of the work can be the source of the original problems. Family law certainly comes to mind in that respect. If you are daily dealing with child custody issues, perhaps child abuse issues, some really deep emotional problems that your clients are suffering from, it's hard not to internalize that. Being a good lawyer requires us to internalize it to a certain degree. And so a lot of times I see lawyers who were in that kind of practice area, who started suffering from depression definitely derived from the work. Others, it's the work load. You know, we kill ourselves for our clients sometimes. The number of hours we'll take on, the number of cases we'll take on, the fear of not having another case come so you take one more, even though you really don't have the capacity for one more. [00:05:21] So the profession, not so much substance-wise but procedure-wise, dumps onto lawyers too much sometimes, more than we can handle and that can trigger the breakdowns, the burnout, and you know ultimately the depression. Jeena Cho: [00:05:37] I think it's so interesting the way that lawyers are trained and taught that despite whatever your clients may be going through, a child custody issues or some horrific injury if you're a personal injury lawyer, that we're supposed to be robots. That if we allow the clients to impact us in any way, like I meet with a client, the client tells me this horrendous story and now I can't stop thinking about the kid that my client lost or whatever it may be, that somehow we're like bad lawyers. Thoughts about healthy ways of coping with all the emotional trauma that comes with the territory of being a lawyer and practicing? Megan Zavieh: [00:06:24] Well, I think that we do have to empathize and relate to our clients on an emotional level. If we don't, for one thing we are not as effective as lawyers, but we turn ourselves off emotionally when we're too robotic. When you're dealing with something that taps into your human side, that really gets under your skin emotionally, but you insist it won't and you're actually battling your natural inclination, I think you're doing more harm than good. You actually end up in an emotional state where you don't feel anymore. And when you don't feel, that leads to depression. I mean right there, if you talk to someone who's seriously depressed, they will frequently say things like, "I don't feel anything, and I don't feel pleasure. And now I don't even feel pain anymore." Well I think that as lawyers, if we tell ourselves we're not supposed to feel, that we're not supposed to feel compassion or emotion relating to our client's underlying issues, then we're just setting ourselves up to become like that; to become robots who don't feel. And that seeps into your personal life, you know your spouse isn't going to be very happy with you if you can't feel anymore. It just spirals, you know a downward spiral in so many ways. So I think that the first step really has to be acknowledging that it's okay and even beneficial to feel when it comes to your clients. Let yourself take on some of their emotional burden. Megan Zavieh: [00:07:54] I still relate back to this article, and I think I mention it probably more frequently than Sam Glover ever intended for anyone to. But Sam wrote a piece on Lawyerist years ago that had to do with why lawyers are not overpaid. And the thrust of the article was that we take on our client's problems; we take them on as our own, we lose sleep at night, and we now are more effective as council, we help them by them not having to worry as much because someone else is taking it on. And I love that idea, but it has to also be done in a healthy way. You have to have some emotional boundaries for yourself, and that's a healthy practice. So admit that you need to take on some of their burden. Admit that it's okay to have those emotions when it comes to your client, but then you need to set some boundaries. If you find yourself obsessing as if it really were your life, you've probably gone too far. So you need healthy outlets and I think we need people to talk to about this. So that would be my second thing, is finding the boundary. And the third thing, finding an outlet. Jeena Cho: [00:09:04] When you say setting boundaries, what does setting healthy boundaries actually look like on a day-to-day basis? What does the actual practice of setting boundaries look like? Megan Zavieh: [00:09:18] Well I think a lot of it comes down to being very mindful and present. And so I think a huge boundary that we have to establish is when we are at work and when we are not. And you'll hear me say in other contexts that the line between work and home is incredibly blended now. My work travels with me; you will find me sitting at the gym while my kids work out on my computer or on the phone for work. So there's not a physical barrier anymore, it's not that kind of a boundary. But there has to be an emotional one. You've got to find a way where you say to yourself, "Right now I'm not at work. And so this particular client's problem that I have been ruminating on all day, that I have been working on, that I have been feeling this compassion for the client and really working hard to solve this problem for them, I can't think about it right now." And to me the way that you do that isn't a negative view of, I'm not going to focus on that. It's a matter of being present and saying, I am going to focus on where I am now; I'm cooking dinner with my family, I'm eating dinner with my family, I'm putting my children to bed. I'm at the gym and I'm focusing on my dead lifts, whatever it is. Finding a way to be present, and I think that's a lot of the stuff that you talk about with mindfulness. Finding a way to be present by itself creates that emotional boundary, so that you're not allowing the stress of work to constantly nag at you. Jeena Cho: [00:11:00] And also, I think it's important to just say that it's not an easy thing to do, you're making dinner for your family and your brain is thinking about your client John and all the stuff that he went through, and you may feel sadness or whatever, the whole range of emotions. It's kind of hard to be like, okay brain we're cooking, so let's focus on the cooking. Megan Zavieh: [00:11:25] That's true. It's not easy, but if you never even think about it, if you never say to yourself, I want to try and be more present, I want to try and establish a boundary in my head and my heart for when I'm at work and when I'm not, then it'll just seep in all the time. And you'll be cooking and you'll be thinking about clients, and you'll somehow probably think its good, that you're a good lawyer because you're so devoted, and you don't even realize that what you're doing is harmful to you. That you've crossed that line from how effective advocate because you care into lawyer setting themselves up for burnout because they never step away. Jeena Cho: [00:12:07] Yeah. What are some telltale signs of mental health issues that someone may be struggling with? Megan Zavieh: [00:12:15] Well judging from the discipline cases that I see, which are usually things that have festered long enough that someone's been either really harmed or at least very angered to reach the point of a discipline case. If we go back in those cases and trace the relationship between the attorney and the client and see where it started to break down, some of the biggest warning signs are when client communication falls off. And I'll see it repeatedly, where the lawyer maybe hasn't even made a substantive mistake yet, but they stop returning phone calls, they stop communicating with the client. I think that tends to happen before the real misconduct happens. So for example, I'll have a client who agreed to represent one of their clients and they're hired, they start to do the work. The deadline is still three weeks out, whatever the first project is they haven't missed a deadline yet, they haven't screwed it up. But the client calls and the lawyer says, "I just don't want to talk to this person." And maybe they don't even really know why, but probably the reason why is that something's going on with them where they're starting to burnout, or they're starting to suffer from early symptoms of depression. And they don't return the calls. [00:13:42] And then eventually because they haven't returned the calls, it's gotten to be too long and now if I call them back, they're going to be so angry. I really don't want to hear it, so I'm still not going to call them back. Then the deadline comes closer, and as the deadline comes closer they go, I really need to talk to the client to do the work, to meet t…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    RL 80: David Shircliff— Maintaining Well-being and Understanding Emotions in the Courtroom Mar 12, 2018
    Show notes

    In this episode, I am excited to have David Shircliff on to talk about maintaining well-being as a lawyer.

    David Shircliff is the Chief Public Defender of the Lawrence County Public Defender Agency in Indiana. He has a passion for helping trial lawyers break through barriers that inhibit performance and fulfillment, including enhancing trial skills, rejuvenating passion after burnout, overcoming secondary trauma, and other non-discussable issues in the practice of law. He is an engaging presenter and facilitator who utilizes innovative experiential learning techniques. He has been a trial lawyer for 25 years and has tried a wide variety of criminal cases from sex offenses to homicides. David has worked on Death Penalty cases, both in trial and on the post-conviction relief level. He is a faculty member of the National Criminal Defense College in Macon, Georgia, the Trial Practice Institute in Indiana, and he is a graduate of the Trial Lawyers College in Wyoming. His goal is to help lawyers love what they do and find fulfillment in all areas of their life.

    Topics Covered

    • David delves into his education in social work and skills that have crossed over into his practice of law, as well as the distinction between primary and secondary trauma.
    • He discusses what makes him feel anxious, ashamed, and inadequate as a lawyer and what tools he has used or seen used to fight these feelings, as well as what to do in those circumstances when you give everything you have and you feel you have failed.
    • Maintaining our own well-being and who David discuss' his fears and worries with when it comes to law.
    • Being an officer of the court, there's pressure to continuously demonstrate your value (worth) based on standards you did not set or agree to. How do you disengage from the external yardstick of measuring your worth and the emotional impact that feeling no emotions can have on a lawyer when they shut down their emotional receptivity in the courtroom.

    If you are interested in contacting David, you can reach him via email at shircliff1@me.com.

    Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

    For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

    Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

    Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

    I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

    MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

    31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

    Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

    Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.


    RL 79: Jen Dawson — Removing the Taboo with Money and Finding Balance Financially Mar 08, 2018
    Show notes

    In this episode, I am excited to have Jen Dawson on to talk about something we don't get the opportunity to candidly about: Money. Jen Dawson is a Certified Financial Planner and is the Chicago Managing Director of Hemington Wealth Management. With over a decade of experience helping clients have a great relationship with their money, Jen has spent the last two years building a career where she spends 100% of her time helping lawyers turn their professional success into financial freedom. She finds these stressed-out, time-starved decision-makers especially appreciate the predictability and peace of mind that comes with a financial plan and outsourcing of all the detailed follow-up items. Jen's wealth management approach creates space and vulnerability for conversations about what's most important in life, and recognizes the importance of a holistic approach to financial well-being - it is not just about numbers. Jen formally works with lawyer clients with over a million dollars of liquid investments, but is passionate about helping lawyers of all levels have a better relationship with their money. Topics Covered Jen kicks off the show talking about her findings when she interviewed lawyers on money and finances and issues they faced planning and saving. She reflects on how many lawyers are "issue-spotters," which can become problematic when balancing happiness and finances. We talk on the emotional issues that lawyers struggle with in terms of money, as well as aspects of advising lawyers about their personal finances (vs. the average professional). When one thinks of lawyers that are managing to avoid anxiety about money, we talk about what they are doing right: control over cash flow, clarity over your financial plan, and confidence in your portfolio to support the plan. Her firm has a general specialty in helping breadwinner women and recently launched a study focused specifically on women attorneys and she gives us a bit of background on these, sharing preliminary findings that might be helpful for women lawyers. Finally, Jen talks on when to know you need to start looking for a financial advisor and how to go about finding one that works for you. For more information on Jen, find her at the following links: Hemington Wealth Management email: jen.dawson@hemingtonwm.com Phone: 312.757.5339 Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Jen Dawson: [00:00:02] How it kind of relates to mindfulness and balance in your life. Because if you drive yourself nuts at paying off student loans and don't enjoy life, then did you reach your goal? You know, I just think having that balanced approach is so important. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode I have Jen Dawson, who is a Certified Financial Planner. She's based in Chicago and the Managing Director of Hemington Wealth Management. With over a decade of experience helping clients have a great relationship with their money, Jen has spent the last two years building a career where she spends 100% of her time helping lawyers turn their professional success into financial freedom. She finds the stressed out, time-starved decision makers especially appropriate for the predictability and peace of mind that comes with financial plan, and outsourcing all the detailed follow-up items. I'm really excited about chatting with Jen and talking about probably something that we all think about, money, but we don't necessarily get a chance to talk all that much about. [00:01:31] Before we get into the interview, just a reminder that Mindful Pause is now open for registration. So often I hear lawyers tell me that they know they should practice mindfulness and meditation, speaking of busy lawyers, but they just don't have the time. So I wanted to create a program that makes mindfulness really accessible and easy for lawyers to fit into their very busy schedule. There's just six minutes of daily practice for 31 days. You think about all the time you dedicate to others, don't you deserve at least .1 hour for yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the shownotes. [00:02:15] And with that, here's Jen. Hello Jen, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Jen Dawson: [00:02:21] Hi there Jeena, thank you so much for having me. Jeena Cho: [00:02:24] So let's just start by having you give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you do. Jen Dawson: [00:02:31] Sure. So I am, like you mentioned, a Certified Financial Planner. So my firm, Hemington Wealth Management is based in D.C. and I'm the Managing Director of the Chicago office. And we help all types of people have a great relationship with our money. I joined the firm a little over a year ago, and one of the big attractions was that it really focuses on serving breadwinner women. And the founder, Eileen O'Connor, it just matches my philosophy on how to serve clients. And Hemington is the name of the firm, that's after the beach house that her family saved for, her parents. She was from a middle class family in D.C., they had nine kids. And every year they would take one vacation to the North Carolina Outer Banks, and they'd go past this big beach house and talk about, wouldn't it be so nice if we could all stay on the ocean together in a house like that? [00:03:20] And her parents saved for 15 years and bought that. So the idea is, what is your Hemington? What is it that you really, really want in life, and how can we help you plan to get it? So that was right up my alley. And then you know my previous farm I'd been building out a practice group you know promotor how law firms have a tax bill for the states or real estate. I would focus on attorneys as clients and my approach was to interview over 100 attorneys in 2016 just ask them what are the top issues with your finances with your practice and in life. And I learned so many great lessons and I have loved working with the lawyer client that I have in the past. [00:03:59] So when I was tasked with starting my own firm or my own business in Chicago I really decided OK I'm going to go all in on lawyers and I spent a hundred of my time in that arena and just naturally I am a Type A personality and a lot of my own Women Network is women lawyers. So I'm just a little bit of background about me. Jeena Cho: [00:04:23] What are some of the surprising findings when you interviewed the lawyers. Jen Dawson: [00:04:29] Well there was I think the understanding the lawyer brain just takes a lot of time and some time you know thick skin. [00:04:39] The fact that naturally very skeptical people recover perfectionist running commentary in their heads that often there's not enough you know a lot of them hate numbers. And so when I start talking about financial topics they think you know it just gives them a pit in their stomach often oftentimes the lawyer and you talk about this in the anxious for it which I loved the book by the way that their issue fodder which makes them excellent attorneys but it's not necessarily the recipe for happiness in life. [00:05:12] And so to help them think differently about life and their money is part of what I think is most important. What makes me most effective with working with lawyers. There are specific financial issues that they often face with lumpy cash flow or you know taxes and a lot of different states. Are Mandatory retirement. You know things like those those aspects of their finances that are very specific to lawyers. But I think understanding how they think and then of course the busyness that you mentioned earlier. Of course just an interesting relationship with time and how they think about you know six minute increments and so that busyness often turns into a neglect of their own personal finances. And it even can be an excuse to not address the you know underlying emotional issue behind their money and their potential things that are holding them back so those are the few things that I've learned and I love lawyers. [00:06:14] And I am a perfectionist or trying to be a recovering perfectionist. And so I see a lot of those lawyer brain things and in my own mind. But I am not a lawyer. So yeah I appreciate you having me on the I can't fight that. Jeena Cho: [00:06:31] What are some of the emotional issues that you see lawyers struggle in terms of money. Jen Dawson: [00:06:37] Well I think certainly that idea of not enough and I would say that keeping up with the Joneses can be an issue for women. [00:06:48] And and of course a lot of them are very high high earner but also high Ben-Dor. And so this lack of freedom the feeling that your stock can be a huge emotional issue and it can. [00:07:04] One of my favorite interviews was with a therapist who specifically focuses on helping attorneys as a patient. And he talked about how it's still an old boys club and Big Boys Don't Cry. [00:07:18] And if you say if you if you can't show vulnerability then it's really proper have intimacy and then it's really tough to be joyful and so that really resonated within some of the attorneys that I worked with and not wanting to show not wanting to ask questions you know about about money concept. And they are so sharp. But oftentimes the money stuff is not in their wheelhouse. And so having an adviser. And I think creating face for the right conversation that can get to the emotional issues is just of huge value for lawyers in particular. Jeena Cho: [00:07:54] Yeah. You know I want to go back to that idea. [00:07:58] Not enough to say I didn't have these conversations with lawyers and you know for the average American standard they're making a really good living but you know tell me like I'm just not making enough or so and so got a bigger bonus or some is brought in more clients and like there's this feeling of like I just have to continually film more produce more go and get more clients. But there's really no understanding about knowing what is enough. So how do you suggest declines in terms of like thinking about you know what is enough like is it you know like calculating it or even like backing into a number and like what does this look like in terms of figuring out you know what is kind of quiet enough. Jen Dawson: [00:08:42] The great question and I love the Prophet as we go through with new clients which is and it's always been my style that my current firm is even more structured and our initial conversations with new clients we go through the seven different sections of questions and just make sure we're having the right conversation about you know what makes you feel best about your finances. [00:09:05] What makes you feel worse. What are your first memories about money and how does that impact how you think you view money today. And you imagine we're sitting here in three years and looking back. What has that happened to be happy with progress and you know just big question that you can't answer if you're in a six minute interval mode and you need to step back and define what you really really want. And then and that's really that what you're what's your in conversation and then we can build a plan around that and show you what that looks like in numbers. And I think that level of predictability. And then holding people to what they've told us you know you said that this was enough you know and but you want more now. Have has had the goalpost change which is obviously absolutely fine. Is there financial future. Or are they getting caught up in that. Not enough or I need a Tesla. Right. You know what is it that. [00:10:07] That's driving that feeling. The other thing I think is incredibly important for lawyers that they have control over their cash flow. [00:10:17] And I'm thinking of one in particular that he said he spent about 20000 per month. And when we looked at OK what's coming and you know he made over a million and saved big chunks into some retirement accounts and paid a ton in taxes and saved some big numbers into a college and for the kids. And then if we back out the 240000 or what he thought he sent there was still about 150000. [00:10:46] That was the difference. So he called this the where the f the money spreadsheet. [00:10:53] And he would go through and like oh yeah we put in you know new flooring or we went on that big trip or we bought the car. And so inevitably he was funny more than he thought he was. Which is again if that's an intentional decision and if he's good with that that's fine but if it's going to effect when he wants to retire you know each year we were meeting he was pushing back retirement more and more and then again that's OK if it's a choice. But don't let it happen just because you let it go and didn't pay attention to it. So I think it's the answer to your question in a very long form. I would say it's defining specifically what you really really want which is often and especially for single people can be a really tough thing to answer. But then backing into it and otherwise and then having some accountability. [00:11:48] No I get a long answer to your question Jeena Cho: [00:11:50] Yeah yeah and makes a lot of sense. [00:11:53] You know when you work with lawyers and you see the lawyers that are doing a good job of managing their money or I guess avoiding that anxiety that a lot of us have around money like what are you doing right. Jen Dawson: [00:12:07] So I think it comes down to a few things. And I would lump it into a control over cash flow which I've talked a little bit about already. But what I often see with lawyers is either there's a fair scarcity of cash which is kind of what I spoke about just now or there's this feeling of each year you've got to start from zero and bringing in new revenue. And so there's this you know this. [00:12:34] Internal worry that you're not going to be able to do what you did last year. And so you hoard cash I often either lawyers have very little cash out of retirement account or they have millions dollars of cash and are so worried about about what to do next. [00:12:51] So just being and having control over cash I think is one of the things for lawyers who would be having clarity over what you want your money to do for you. We've talked about that a little bit. I think that people think traditionally that financial advisors will help them of course with retirement planning with college planning with investment estate planning taxes insurance and a comprehensive adviser we'll be talking about all those th…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    RL 78: Finding Meaning and Purpose Mar 05, 2018
    Show notes

    In this episode, I read an article I recently wrote for the American Bar Association. They put out a call for lawyers that come from an underprivileged background to share their "My Path to Law" Story, so I thought this would be a perfect time to share my story in terms of how I went from being an immigrant from Korea at the age of 10 to being a lawyer.

    My Path to Law: Finding Meaning and Purpose

    I watched a lot of Law & Order growing up. My family immigrated to the U.S. in 1988 (the same year that Korea last hosted the Olympics). I was 10 years old and didn't speak a word of English. Neither did anyone else in my family. As I watched, I repeated the phrases the lawyers said on the show, trying to learn the words, the intonation, the meaning.

    When we moved to the U.S., we settled in Astoria, New York, where my grandparents owned a grocery store. My dad went from being an architect at Samsung to working seven days a week at the grocery store. My mom had been an art teacher; in New York, she worked at a nail salon.

    Here's the thing. When you're an immigrant in a country where you don't speak the language, where you aren't familiar with its rules and laws, you get taken advantage of.

    We moved into an apartment with no hot water but plenty of cockroaches and rats. We didn't know for years that you can report the landlord to housing agencies. I still remember waking up in the middle of the night, screaming, terrified because a rat ran across my torso. Once I found a cockroach in a bowl of soup.

    Eventually, my dad bought a laundromat. More than once, customers threatened to sue him for some claimed loss or damage to their clothing. He usually paid them because he didn't understand how the legal system worked.

    I knew from watching Law & Order that there were rules in this country designed to protect the innocent, punish wrongdoers and restore justice. I loved the show. In 60 minutes, bad people were always prosecuted and justice served. To my naive 12-year-old self, this was obviously my path: Go to law school. Become a prosecutor. Send bad guys to jail. Protect the innocent.

    As a sophomore in high school, I decided I was going away for college, but my parents were very traditional and didn't approve. They often said that the only way I was allowed to leave the house was if I were (1) married or (2) dead. Neither option appealed to me.

    I saved every dollar I could from my job as a cashier at Boston Market and applied for colleges out of town. I faked their signatures on the applications, completed all the financial aid forms, and got into University at Buffalo (SUNY Buffalo) 420 miles away with a full scholarship.

    Once it was clear that I wouldn't need their permission or financial support, I "ran away" to college. I was 17 years old. I didn't speak to my parents for a long time after that.

    As an immigrant working menial jobs, you often feel unseen and unrecognized. I'll never forget the summer I worked in my mom's nail salon. She told a customer (very proudly) that I had just graduated from college. The woman looked at me as if seeing me for the first time (while I was washing her feet), and said very sweetly, "Well, isn't that nice. So, will you be working here then?"

    Stunned, I paused and responded that I was there for the summer but was starting law school in the fall. Her facial expression changed and she responded, "Well, good for you."

    I graduated from law school at 24 and got my dream job as an assistant state attorney in Florida. There I learned that one privilege of having that role is seeing images we'll never be able to unsee and hearing stories we'll never be able to unhear. I was assigned to the domestic violence unit, where I learned that our criminal "justice" system is a terrible mechanism for helping people.

    Later, I was assigned to misdemeanors court. The first day was arraignment day. The judge, through a Spanish-speaking interpreter, asked everyone who was there for driving without a valid license to move into the jury box. A group of about 30 men stood and walked over. There were too many of them for the jury box, so they huddled around it. They looked tired, with leathered skin from working in the fields all day, their hands and fingers swollen.

    The judge had the interpreter tell them his rule. "The first time you're caught, it's a fine. Second time, it's 10 days in jail. Third time, 364 days." For comparison, a third-time DUI carried with it a minimum mandatory sentence of 30 days.

    One by one, the men were asked to plead. Those that pled guilty were sentenced according to the judge's rule. Often the defendants didn't understand the consequences of pleading guilty, and more than once would start wailing when they were taken straight from arraignment to jail. Those that didn't plead were assigned a public defender and set for trial.

    This was deeply traumatizing. Although I was in the U.S. legally, I could see myself, my family in the faces and stories of these workers.

    Bryan Stevenson asks in his book Just Mercy, "Why do we want to kill all the broken people?" I didn't try capital cases, but his question resonates with me. As an assistant state attorney, I saw how we want to lock away, criminalize and shun people who are broken.

    Like most state attorneys' offices, we were overworked (I had over 250 cases) and there was no time. No time to sit down and figure out how to help people. No time to consider what would be a just outcome. I was burning out, desperately trying to keep my head above water, and having regular nightmares of seeing my parents in the jury box - nightmares of their being taken away from me for 364 days.

    I needed a change. So, I moved from Tampa to the San Francisco Bay Area. I met my husband, Jeff Curl, who is also a lawyer, and we started a bankruptcy practice. This was the perfect practice area for me (even though it doesn't make me very popular at cocktail parties). I get to help people who are experiencing financial trauma and give them a fresh start. It is healing and restorative.

    The first bankruptcy case I ever filed was for a very sweet 69-year-old immigrant. He was HIV-positive and struggling with bipolar depression. After the meeting of creditors, we hugged and he cried.

    I started practicing mindfulness and meditation in 2011 after being diagnosed with social anxiety disorder. This eventually led to co-authoring a book with Karen Gifford for ABA Publishing, The Anxious Lawyer.

    Here's what I know. While my 12-year-old self's understanding of how our justice system works was flawed and naive, what I've retained is the deep desire to make a difference, to create a better world, and to live with compassion.

    As Rainer Maria Rilke writes in his book Letters to a Young Poet, "The point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer."

    Every day, I live with the question: "What would be the most kind, generous and compassionate response?" I am practicing living into the answer.

    This article was first published in the ABA Journal, My path to law: one immigrant's journey. You can also find the related blog post from www.JeenaCho.com here.

    Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

    For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

    Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

    Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

    I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

    MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

    31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

    Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

    Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.


    RL 77: Charlotte Tschider — Getting Rid of the Tightrope Between Work and Life Feb 19, 2018
    Show notes

    In this episode, I am excited to have Charlotte Tschider on to talk about how the concept of having work and personal life being two completely separate and isolated entities could be a dated way of seeing things.

    Charlotte is an Affiliated Professor at the Mitchell Hamline School of Law's Health Law Institute and Cybersecurity and Privacy Law Programs and Owner/Principal for Cybersimple Security, a privacy and cybersecurity consulting firm. In her spare time, she writes on law, health, and technology topics, and recently published the book International Cybersecurity and Privacy Law in Practice (Wolters Kluwer, 2018).

    Topics Covered

    • We talk work/life balance; how we should treat and value both, how to identify burnout and how it hinders our work for our clients, and rediscovering joy in our hobbies.
    • Productivity; understanding the ebb and flow of efficiency at work to best maximize work output while remaining mindful of what your motivation level is.
    • Managing stress, in particular the concept of reframing actions for a less stressful response and looking for things to be grateful for, to get a new perspective on your situation.

    For more information on Charlotte:

    Twitter: @CybersimpleSec www.cybersimplesecurity.com

    Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

    For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

    Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

    Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

    I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

    MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

    31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

    Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it.

    Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.


    RL 76: Amy M. Gardner — Time Management: Planning for Success Feb 12, 2018
    Show notes

    In this episode, I am excited to have Amy M. Gardner on. Amy M. Gardner is an attorney and certified professional coach who coaches attorneys on career, leadership, and professionalism issues as a principal at Apochromatik. She also provides group trainings and consulting services to law firms and other organizations. Amy has a unique track record of working with law students as dean of students at the University of Chicago Law School and a successful career practicing law, first as a Skadden litigation associate and later as an associate and then partner at a mid-size Chicago firm. Amy has been interviewed by news outlets and websites on topics including time management, leadership, professionalism, and developing and maintaining friendships as an adult. She received her B.A. from Luther College, her J.D. from the University of Chicago Law School and her M.A. in Public Policy and Administration from Northwestern University. She is a graduate of the Institute of Professional Excellence in Coaching. Topics Covered Amy starts out the episode by talking about her career path and how she kept focused on keeping her career in line with her true self. Different important aspects lawyers should be aware of when thinking about time management, as well as different tips and tricks to tracking your time. For attorneys with a significant other or spouse, what the most important hour of the week looks like in keeping the relationship strong. An amazing perspective on goal-writing to make sure you are staying motivated in reaching them, are realistic and attainable, and how to avoid beating yourself up with goals that seem too hard. For more information on Amy, find her at the following sites: www.apochromatik.com linkedin.com/in/amygardner Sources mentioned: http://amzn.to/2BUoXYZ Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Check out this episode! Transcript Amy Gardner: [00:00:08] Nor am I investing my time the way that I want to and the way that I need to in order to achieve my goals. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:38] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today. In this episode I'm so happy to have Amy Gardner. She is an attorney and certified professional coach who coaches attorneys on career leadership and professionalism as she is at Appochromatik. She also provides group training and consulting services to law firms and other organizations. Amy has a unique track record of working with law students as dean of students at University of Chicago Law School and a successful career practicing law or as a litigation associate and later as an associate partner at Miss Chicago firm. Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course Mindful Pause, which will relaunch in March. So often I hear lawyers say they know they should practice mindfulness but they don't have the time, and as I always tell every lawyer they can start with just six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, you deserve to have at least one hour to yourself. Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you to fit into your hectic schedule. Also, check it out in the show notes or head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more. And with that, here's Amy. Amy, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Amy Gardner: [00:02:01] Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I really appreciate it. Jeena Cho: [00:02:04] So let's just get started by having you know give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you Dale. Amy Gardner: [00:02:10] Sure. So as you mentioned I previously practiced law first at Skåne Chicago and then at a mid-sized firm in Chicago. It is now part of Nixon Peabody and after making partner there realized. About a year later that it wasn't quite the right fit for me and quite what I expected it to be. So I went to the University of Chicago Law School as the dean of students there created a number of professionalism and leadership programs there and had the opportunity to do some coaching trainings and start using a Coaching Approach with students which I found really rewarding and enjoyable. And so when I decided to leave the University of Chicago Law School I wanted to hang on to some of the elements that I had really liked about the Dean of Students job and one of those was the coaching aspect. So I completed an intensive coaching certification program and now I coach attorneys and other professionals often as you said on career and leadership issues. So people who are not sure if they want to make partner or people who want to make partner but need to work on certain skills to be able to get there or people who just have been sliding through their careers and need help to start move into moving into a place where they're actually deciding what they want and then for people who want to make a change. I often do mock interviews resume review cover letter review and things like that. [00:03:33] And then as you mentioned we also do trainings often for law firms and other organizations on things like time management. How to receive feedback how to give feedback how to be a good mentor or good mentee. All sorts of topics like that just trying to help attorneys and other professionals to get rid of the distractions and distortions in their careers and really focus on what they want out of their careers and lives and then how to get there. Jeena Cho: [00:04:02] I think your career is just so interesting because I find that so often lawyers like really super identify with who they are with what they do. It's almost like the sum of their entire sum of who they are as just being a lawyer and just seems like such a huge jump to go from like being in a law firm to going back to a law school as as a dad and then now kind of going off on your own and doing coaching and you just talk a little bit about that journey. And like you know how did you know that it was time to shift. And did you have any like hesitations about letting go of your identity as a lawyer. Amy Gardner: [00:04:45] I think for me it was I loved practicing law. I had done two trials. I had second chaired a really big jury trial in Texas. I had taken a bunch of depositions I had done all the things that you're supposed to do. And I had enjoyed a lot about that. I enjoyed the intellectual challenge but several of my professors came to me and said hey you know the Dean of Students is leaving. You should think about doing this. And I was sort of like give me a break. I'm a law firm partner. Why would I want to go be responsible for 700 students. [00:05:20] And I had the opportunity to do a four week fellowship in Europe through the German Marshall Fund and I met all of these amazing lawyers in different cities in Europe who were doing things that felt more meaningful to me than the work that I was doing at that point and it got me thinking more broadly about what I could do with my skills and experience. And that didn't necessarily involve discovery disputes and things like that and I realized that OK maybe the Dean of Students thing is a good idea and as I talked to friends about it people person after person kept saying oh my gosh that's perfect for you. When I get my notice my old firm the partner I been working for started laughing and said Of course you are of course an expert. And so it was and I was working for a particular Dean makes schol who is now the president at the University of Oregon. And Mike really wanted as he put it. He liked the fact I downshifted from a law firm to higher ed and he really gave me a lot of runway and support to do a lot of things with community building and professionalism and leadership training that the university Chicago Law School hadn't done before. So he really enabled me to approach it from the standpoint of somebody who had been supervising junior associates and knew what they needed and the opportunity to see students learn and grow was really exciting and meaningful. And so I really liked that aspect in terms of when I decided to leave and deciding what I wanted to do next. It was a long process. [00:07:00] I won't bore you with but I had decided back in 2014 to leave and I stayed for two years after that. And so during that time I had met with a career coach had really I had the gift of being able to think about what I wanted to do and how I would do something that was aligned with my values. But that didn't have some of the drawbacks that I had seen as a dean of students because I had had offers to go to other schools and knew that that wasn't where I wanted to spend the next segment of my career. And I saw how valuable it was to work with a coach who didn't have her own agenda and who simply wanted me to figure out what I wanted and then helped me get there and as opposed to a mentor or even a significant other who often has their own slant or viewpoint on things. And I saw how valuable that was and realized how valuable that might have been. At other points in my career and especially as I started using coaching techniques students realized wait a minute. I really like this and this actually could be my career rather than just a segment of it. Jeena Cho: [00:08:11] Yeah. You know maybe we can spend a little bit time talking about you know working with a coach. I think it's not something that's necessarily familiar to lawyers. I I would go to college. I love working at a coach. You know how is working with a coach Lessie different than seeing a therapist like what's the role of a coach and why should a lawyer consider working with Coach Sure. Amy Gardner: [00:08:38] So it's different than working with a therapist in large part because coaching and agreements are set up to be short term. So for example you might sign on with a coach for 12 sessions and that isn't to say that you can do a second set or third set of sessions but it's generally focused on discrete issues so another difference is that with a therapist where and I say this not in any way as a dig against therapists and I have recommended therapy to many many former students and attorney friends over the years but in therapy often it can be more focused on looking at the past and looking backwards and understanding actions and issues and focused on more mental health issues like that that can be more pervasive versus in coaching. If somebody comes to me and says I need to learn how to have a better relationship with my boss we're going to look backwards a bit to understand how the relationship got to where it is but then we're going to be focused on the strategies going forward. [00:09:44] And it's going to be more focused on not looking at underlying issues I would never ask a client about what my relationship with your father teach you about this situation and things like that if there are deeper issues that I'm going to refer a client to a therapist because I have loads of counseling and coaching training but I'm not a therapist. And so there are times where I have clients who work with both a therapist and a coach. I have clients who have worked with a therapist who then has recommended that they work with the coach. So we're going to be more focused on how the client can move forward and address particular skills and the changes they want to make in life. So things like if you know you want to make partner figuring out what skills you need and then how you can get those skills versus getting into more mental health type issues it. Jeena Cho: [00:10:37] Can take a little bit about sort of the nitty gritty of how to be a better human. If he had a lawyer and I knew a thing that so many lawyers struggle with that is actually managing their time you know first time as one of our most important resources and most valuable resources and we only get fourteen hundred forty minutes a day and I think there's this expectation that if you just keep adding more things onto your to do less somehow it will magically get done and now that we're in this really all that mindful about what we put on that list is just more stuff gets piled on there and then we and then our entire goal is to just try to work through that to do less and we sort of measure how well we're doing by how many things we checked off our to do that. Now what are some things that lawyers can do to kind of stay on top of their time and manage their time better. Amy Gardner: [00:11:29] So it may sound counterintuitive but one thing that I found incredibly helpful is for lawyers to track their time and often lawyers say wait a minute I already have to record my time for my job. But what I found with my clients and in my own experience is that there are all these things you do during the day that aren't reflected in your time sheet. And those are things both at work and afterwork. And so what I recommend is tracking all of your time for a week and if you do that you'll figure out where those 4800 and 40 minutes a day are going and then you can use that information to evaluate am I investing my time the way that I want to and the way that I need to in order to achieve my goals and when I've done this for myself. I've often found that I am doing things that don't need to be done or I'm doing things that could be automated or delegated off of my To Do list. [00:12:25] And so you do lose that dogmeat head us crossing something off your to do list. But what you save is just a little bit of your energy for things that really matter rather than things that are getting you distracted. Jeena Cho: [00:12:38] Yeah that makes a lot of sense. You know when I was going through my career transition I was working with a coach and she kind of had me do something similar which was as I'm going through my day actually color. Could the calendars I use google calendar show you know when I look back if I the last hour that I spent if I really felt like at ease and if I really enjoy what I was doing I would be a different color. And then if I like really trended and hated what I was doing it be a different color. No it's really interesting to see after a week just seeing like you know where where these little pockets of time where I like really hated what I was doing and there I knew other pockets of time where I was really enjoying and feeling like I was you know experiencing that sense of flow and ease. [00:13:23] Now I was like OK like now I'm going to try to do more of coming of course like like can't be just all about you know the stuff that makes you happy and whatever the pleasure chasing. But it was a really interesting experiment to do and I think there's a lot of value in just seeing where your time goes and not sort of going through it mindlessly. Amy Gardner: [00:1…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    RL 75: Jennifer McClanahan-Flint — Leaning into Diversity Feb 05, 2018
    Show notes

    In this episode, I am excited to have Jennifer McClanahan-Flint on to talk about diversity, inclusion, and the impact on being a woman of color in the legal industry. Jennifer McClanahan-Flint is the founder of the Leverage to Lead Group and Programs. As a Career Strategist, she works primarily with ambitious women of color to help them navigate bias, compensation, and their career progression so they can continue to rise. Through her work at Leverage to Lead, she has built a process to help her clients get clear about what they want out of their careers and build a plan to get it. She works with her clients to help them stop trying to fit in and identify how their difference is the key to their continued success. One of the best ways to get to know more about her and her work is to receive her weekly newsletter. You can sign up for it here. If you would like to schedule a one-on-one consultation, email Jennifer at support@leverage2lead.com. Topics Covered She defines what diversity means to her and why diversity should matter to lawyers and law firms. The two types of diversity and how our awareness to these is paramount in moving forward to a more inclusive work environment and society. How diversity is related to mindfulness and how mindfulness can be the best tool for overcoming adversity and uncomfortable situations. Why leadership matters in diversity efforts and how everyone should see this as a community effort. For more information on Jennifer, find her at the following sites: www.leverage2lead.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifermcclanahanflint/ Sources mentioned: https://www.amazon.com/White-Like-Me-Reflections-Privileged/dp/1593764251 Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book - Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:00:02] That's why I think the work I do with women is so important, because they have skills just based on who they are that they've had to develop and they've had to refine, and they refine and incorporate it so much they don't even know it's a skill anymore. It's just how they navigate the world. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:38] Hello my friends, thanks for joining us for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Today I have Jennifer McClanahan-Flint, who is a founder of Leverage to Lead Group and Programs. As a career strategist, she works primarily with ambitious women of color to help them navigate bias, compensation, and their career progression so that they can continue to rise. Through her work at Leverage to Lead she has built a process to help her clients get clear about what they want out of their careers and build a plan to get it. She works with her clients to help them stop fighting to fit in, and identify how their difference is the key to their continued success. Jennifer, welcome to the show. Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:01:21] Hi Jeena, thank you for having me. Jeena Cho: [00:01:23] So let's just start with having you give us a 30 second overview of who you are and what you do. Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:01:31] So as you know, I'm Jennifer McClanahan-Flint and I'm an executive career strategist. And my goal is to work with women of color and really help them face the future with anticipation and not apprehension. I think so often we feel so uncertain about what we should do and how we get there, and how does race, bias, and discrimination impact that. And so what I really do to work with my clients is give them certainty about who they are, their value, and what they want, so that they have the capacity to navigate uncertainty, especially in these uncertain times. Jeena Cho: [00:02:12] Yeah, and I think that's such a hard practice, to be become more comfortable and finding ease in light of uncertainty. Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:02:22] Absolutely. I mean you know we talk about in your work is focusing on mindfulness and meditation, and being mindful about who you are I think is one of the biggest challenges that we have as individuals. Jeena Cho: [00:02:36] Yeah. So I wanted to have you on the show for so many different reasons, because I just so admire all the work that you are doing. But I wanted to specifically talk about diversity and inclusion, and also just the impact of being a woman of color in the legal industry. So, you work a lot with lawyers, I guess just maybe we can start by talking about (I feel like the words diversity and inclusion get thrown around a lot, but) what does diversity actually mean to you? Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:03:12] So diversity really is all about difference ultimately. I mean, I think we can use diversity in different context, but difference is at the root of what diversity is all about. Now when we think of it from an equity standpoint, and we talk about diversity, it's about differences that impact social status and differences that impact access to resources and opportunity. And then other privileges and disadvantages of entire groups of people in a community, based on their diverse attributes. Jeena Cho: [00:03:45] Which leads me to my next question, why does it matter, why does diversity matter? Why should law firms care about diversity, why should we as individual lawyers care about diversity? Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:03:56] Absolutely, right? I mean we hear diversity is good, but why is diversity so good? But ultimately, diversity helps us learn. It encourages us to think critically and differently, and consider information more accurately and open-mindedly. And ultimately, that's really what we all want. It prompts us to think creatively instead of making assumptions about what we all know or believe. And that in turn actually cultivates growth in us. Because often when we don't have diversity, we all kind of think and assume the same things. I mean, we're comfortable with the friends that we have because our friends think like us. And so what we really want is diversity so that we're with people who stop and make us think. Jeena Cho: [00:04:40] Yeah, and there's so much research out there about how teams that are more diverse are actually more successful, but also that they also have more conflict. And it makes perfect sense, because if you have carbon copies of each other, if all the people on your team went to the same law school and grew up in the same neighborhood.. I mean not that every single one of those people are going to think the exact same thing, but that you will be biased because of your life experience and perspectives. And we want to have a group that has huge range of different life experiences and cultural backgrounds, and just a different way of viewing things. And I think we can often forget that the way that I view the world may be very very different than the way you view the world. Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:05:32] Right? And you know, this actually brings up a couple of tensions in diversity. Right? Because all that diversity is really good, and most people are really good with "makes things different diversity," "makes things interesting diversity." Diversity that's interesting, you've traveled the world, maybe we're all lawyers but you grew up here and you've had this experience; "it makes things interesting diversity," when you get to know, people we like that. But then there's the "makes me uncomfortable diversity," which is really kind of at the root of what we're talking about, diversity that makes you stretch and that makes you grow. Because "makes things interesting diversity" means that at some level, you're asking them to be included in how you see the world. Right? So they might be different, but there's also this ability for them to come over to your side of the fence, right? Or you can go over to their side of the fence, which brings inclusion in areas that you're already comfortable, not really stretching. "Makes me uncomfortable diversity" is the diversity where you're like, I don't even know what to say to this person; I'm not sure how to communicate. It's so vast and inclusion becomes something about equity, where everyone has an equal voice at the table, not that everybody's comfortable at the table. Jeena Cho: [00:06:45] Yeah, and it's been so interesting ever since the election, it almost seems like there's like a hyper-focus on diversity and inclusion. And at the same time, as as a woman of color I never had such a moment where I felt so uncertain and just fearful, you know? And I talk to a lot of people, especially people of color that feel this way. And I think it's almost hard to relate to that or even understand what that feels like. I mean you know, I'm an immigrant. And because of that, I have certain life experiences and perspectives, and I always sort of bought into this idea that you come to America, you work hard, you do what you're supposed to, and that you'll have a place where you can have a sense of belonging; which is what diversity and inclusion is all about. It's like having a place where you feel secure and safe and you can express who you are as a person. And I don't feel that way, it almost seems like the foundation that I lived on has completely shifted. And now I feel fearful; I feel fearful for my safety, I feel fearful for other people of color and their safety. Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:08:03] And you know, it makes me think of a couple of things. Just as I work with my clients, and this is just something that I learned as I work with my clients, like how do they feel and how do we manage it and how do I manage my own feelings around that. Because I absolutely echo, I've never felt so uncertain in the world as I do now, in a country that is my country; there is no other place for me to be. And one, as as a woman of color, as executive level work, a very successful career. Part of what I've been able to do, and other women of color do all the time, is they're like an ambassador to so many different cultures. You have the capacity to figure out how to make people comfortable with you in a culture that's not your own, right? You learn, whether consciously or unconsciously, how to adapt and study a culture so that your presence makes other people comfortable, right? Makes you fit and gives you opportunity. I think it's very unconscious when we do that, and there was some certainty about being able to be your level of safety, or when you weren't safe. Like you could go into a culture and know I'm not safe in this culture, I don't want to be in this culture, and I'm going to go back to myself and find out how do I navigate an area that's outside of who I was fundamentally or who I was raised to be. And now I'm working with all these white males, how do I make myself comfortable in this culture? [00:09:37] And those things that we've known, and known how to navigate for so long are off the table I feel. So this certainty that you've navigated with being different and being comfortable with being different, and knowing when your difference is something that people can accept and can go with and that you'll have opportunity, and know instinctively that's not my group and I'm not going to try and be part of that group. Now all of that to me, it's a surprise personally how many people are comfortable with racism. Not to say they are or they aren't racist, but there's so many people that either are not conscious of it or are comfortable with it, it gives me pause. Which goes back to my bigger issue of "makes me uncomfortable diversity," "makes me uncomfortable diversity" is only successful with leadership. You have plenty examples around the world, and we can now look unfortunately in the United States, where diversity raises conflict. "Makes me uncomfortable, I am not comfortable with you diversity," conflict is prevalent. The thing that makes "makes me uncomfortable diversity" work is leadership, and you can do it within your organization. And we need it here in our country. But what our leadership is giving us now, and I don't mean simply our president, I would say from our congressional leadership, from our media leadership, is that we're digging in to our differences and making those the things that are most important. As opposed to the fact that our differences are the things are going to make our country better, smarter, stronger. Jeena Cho: [00:11:10] Right, and again I just just shifting and not looking at just the political landscape but even when you look at the Fortune 500 companies, and their leadership makeup. And it's just nauseating, just how white, older white male that those positions are held by. And it also feels exhausting, because it's like every one of those companies probably have a diversity statement and a commitment to diversity. But then it's like, you can't tell me that you're truly committed to diversity when you don't have any person of color on your executive team or on your board. But yet they will very strongly argue with you that they deeply care about diversity and inclusion, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:12:05] Well, I'm not their minds. I'm not in their head so I don't know what they're thinking about that in particular. You know, I work with individuals who are in this situation. And basically I look at my clients and I say, "What else would you do?" So you know, can you understand why they say that they're diverse and they're not? Probably not. But here you are a diverse woman, in this organization. So the question isn't what do they think of you, the question is what do you think of yourself and how are you going to navigate it? Because what is your option, what are your options? Where are you going to go? You can't decide to not be a part, you've got to go make a living. You've got to go use this education, you've got skills and values and things that you're contributing. So the question isn't how can I make them more diverse or more understanding or more aware or more woke. I mean hopefully they get there, but the work I do with my clients is about how do you navigate this? Jeena Cho: [00:13:07] Yeah I mean, it's almost like moving past the point of "this is unfair." Jennifer McClanahan-Flint: [00:13:12] It's been unfair for years, I mean that's the other thing I think when I look at our political landscape. I want to say, yeah I'm not down with our current president, but our current president hasn't done anything that has not been happening in corporate America for years. To all of a sudden point to the president like, we have a problem. He is just out…

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