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246. Past, Present, and Future Biases (Refreshed Episode) Dec 20, 2022

Show notes

Today's episode is another refresh from the series I did on "All the Biases" back in 2019. Two weeks ago on episode 242 we had the one on numbers-based bias called "Math is Hard" and this week is all about time. It focuses on the past and the future and how we don't look at them in the same way, and how that can impact our behavior (it isn't always the same and our preferences definitely change when we are looking forward versus backward) and how this changes the way we value things and so much more.

I chose to refresh this episode today because this coming Friday, Dolly Chugh is on the show to talk about her new book, A More Just Future. We talk specifically about how the way we look backward isn't the same as when we look forward, and how that impacts our likelihood to take action. Even when we are furious in the moment, and are adamant we will take action, because the past and future don't impact our behavior the same way we often don't. This can be really problematic when we are looking to right the wrongs of the past and present for a better future.

As you listen today, I encourage you to consider how the past, present, and future are different for you. Think of a time when you were outraged by something in the moment and said (either aloud or in your head) that you were absolutely going to do or say something and never did. Why is that? When you remember that incident do you feel as upset about it? What if you heard it was going to happen tomorrow or a week from now? What might you do to prevent it? Why do the past and future feel different and how can this knowledge change the way you support other humans?

Show Notes:

[00:39] Today's episode is another refresh from the series I did on "All the Biases" back in 2019.
[01:39] Because the past and future don't impact our behavior the same way, it can really be problematic when we are looking at history and helping to right the wrongs of the past and present.
[03:48] People want immediate payoffs.
[06:23] Due to impact bias, we overestimate the duration of the intensity of the impact of how we will feel in the future. We are also victims of projection bias.
[08:26] To prove a point now you might be making a choice that negatively impacts your future self.
[10:08] The sunk cost fallacy is where people will keep spending and justify pouring into a bad prior investment even though evidence shows it is bad.
[12:37] As your brain gets overwhelmed your subconscious is more likely to take the reins, meaning you will make more battery and present-focused decisions instead of snowball, future-focused decisions.
[14:05] In the cold state we may know that something is a good idea and commit ourselves that when you are in a hot state you don't have the option to let that hot self take over and make a bad decision about the present.
[16:03] People think that when you are in that cold state you're not going to require, need, or want whatever the things are as much as you actually will when your body chemistry has changed to the hot state.
[16:49] People are impacted more by losses than gains and it takes double the joy felt by a gain to equal the pain that is felt by a loss.
[18:03] You may consciously want to stop dreading something. However, as long as your subconscious is still getting some kind of reward or benefit from the physical act of dreading you would need a lot of extra savoring, positive benefit, and something to enjoy at the moment to combat the dread.
[20:45] We do not really like risks and will avoid them when we can. Due to a zero risk bias, we humans prefer to reduce a small risk down to nothing than we would like to take a bigger reduction in a larger risk.
[22:27] When you think you are safer, you are more likely to take risks in other areas. For example, people drive worse when wearing a seatbelt.
[25:01] Because we don't want to change, we may ostrich and avoid the potential negative even at our own personal cost.
[26:13] For one person to succeed it does not mean everyone else has to lose or fail.
[28:52] When you know the rules of the game (all these biases and how they work together) it can be easier than you think to trick your brain into doing more in your own favor and use these biases in your favor so you can make decisions today that you will appreciate tomorrow or help get yourself out of a negative spiral.
[31:52] Melina's closing thoughts
[32:37] Time discounting is such a big hurdle for us but knowing about it and how it combines with bikeshedding, planning fallacy, and optimism bias is the first step in tackling this.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

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Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Fierce Conversations, by Susan Scott
A More Just Future, by Dolly Chugh
A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger
How Minds Change, by David McRaney
Behavioral Investor, by Daniel Crosby

Top Recommended Next Episode: Time Discounting (ep 51)

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245. Behind the Scenes of Behavioral Scientist and Evan Nesterak Dec 16, 2022

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Evan Nesterak, the co-founder and editor-in-chief of Behavioral Scientist, a nonprofit digital and print magazine that examines the world through the science of human behavior. Previously, he led the Mindset Assessment Project, an initiative designed to bring rigorous psychological research into the world of sport and worked with Angela Duckworth at the University of Pennsylvania on character development research.

This is such a fun conversation, where Evan tells some "never before publicly discussed" stories from his background and that of Behavioral Scientist, which is always fun. We get to hear all about his work and the focus at the magazine, it is full of laughs and brainy goodness. You don't want to miss it!

Show Notes:

[00:42] In today's conversation, I am joined by Evan Nesterak, the co-founder and editor-in-chief of Behavioral Scientist, a nonprofit digital and print magazine that examines the world through the science of human behavior.
[02:36] Evan shares about himself, his background, and the work that he does.
[03:35] He also did some research with the US Soccer Federation where they did a study looking at the mindsets of the elite youth players in the development academy.
[06:09] Evan shares how he met past Brainy Business guest Leidy Klotz.
[08:50] Often when you are newer to something you are automatically put into the mentee role. It is powerful to have that script flipped and be the mentor even if you are newer into something if you have enough experience that you can add value.
[11:13] He learned a lot working with Angela Duckworth and he has taken a lot of lessons since leaving the lab.
[12:25] Evan shares the history of how Behavioral Scientist started.
[14:00] After graduating from college, he decided to do what he now calls "real world college."
[16:24] He realized there was no place for him to read about really interesting psychology work that was happening.
[17:21] In 2012 Evan and his brother started The Psych Report. They had expert psychologists write about their research in digestible, interesting, and engaging ways.
[17:59] In 2016 it evolved: they teamed up with some other projects and co-founded Behavioral Scientist in 2017.
[20:33] The way we think about human behavior can influence the world we design.
[22:48] They compiled a team from various backgrounds and got to work. Their goal has been to stay curious, prioritize people who ask interesting and ambitious questions about human behavior, and try to answer them in rigorous and thoughtful ways.
[25:12] Don't worry about trying to read everything. Try and find your trusted sources.
[27:12] Being open to other formats can be a really great way to read with an eye for human behavior.
[28:55] You immediately have respect for people when you write or do something outside of your comfort zone.
[29:45] Melina shares about past guests Doug Kenrick and David Lundberg-Kenrick and their work.
[33:04] The first thing when writing a book in academia is to take action and try and do it.
[33:58] Then you need to understand what your background and strength is in writing and who you want to write for.
[35:20] You have to get someone invested and a great way to do that is stories, examples, and cost and opportunities.
[38:04] The more focused you can be in your writing the better.
[39:09] Evan's first suggestion is to sign up for the Behavioral Scientist weekly newsletter and see if it is for you. Hopefully you will encounter things that you wouldn't necessarily seek out but you would learn something that would have an impact on your life.
[41:17] Monthly they put out the Research Lead where they focus on new research topics.
[44:16] Brain Meets World is a thematic print issue that traces the journey of what happens to our ideas as we bring them out to the world.
[46:40] When you chase the answers all the time it never feels satisfying.
[48:52] Melina's closing thoughts

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

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Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

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Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Grit, by Angela Duckworth
Subtract, by Leidy Klotz
The Paradox of Choice, by Barry Schwartz
How to Change, by Katy Milkman
Brain Meets World, by Behavioral Scientist

Connect with Evan:

Top Recommended Next Episode: Do You Subtract Enough? An interview with Dr. Leidy Klotz (ep 162)

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244. Decision Fatigue (Refreshed Episode) Dec 13, 2022

Show notes

Decisions are everywhere — we are making them all day long. Even if you know you are making a lot of decisions, you probably don't grasp the full weight of them. Think about yesterday, how many decisions can you remember making? How many decisions do you make on an average day?

Research shows that people make 35,000 decisions every single day!

Can you believe it? Clearly, the bulk of those are done subconsciously as we couldn't exist if we had to do all of those on a conscious level. So, how do we make better decisions? What happens when we make too many decisions? Is there a point in the day when we have hit our decision number and it's all downhill from there? Or is there an opportunity to recharge those batteries and have a second wind?

When do we reach the point of decision fatigue and what can we do to avoid it? That's what this episode is all about. This refreshed episode originally came out on Christmas day, 2020 (at the end of a year full of decision fatigue). It includes tips for making better decisions around the holidays and is useful all year round. Ready to optimize your decisions? Listen in…

Show Notes:

[00:39] Today's episode is all about decision fatigue.
[03:21] We humans make an incredible number of decisions each day.
[04:48] We all make about 35,000 decisions every single day. Some of those are big choices evaluated by our conscious brain but over 90% are made by your subconscious.
[05:51] As you begin to get fatigued, you rely on your subconscious rules of thumb to make decisions. You'll be more cautious and make decisions that are risk-averse without even noticing the change in your behavior.
[07:48] If you don't bog down your brain with mundane choices you can free it up so it doesn't get fatigued as quickly.
[09:34] Doing something today is the best way to make tomorrow easier.
[11:14] Decision fatigue is similar to overwhelm but they are not the same thing. Your brain can get overwhelmed by more than just decisions.
[14:08] Be thoughtful about the things you will be thoughtful about. There are lots of things that seem important at the moment that simply aren't.
[14:33] Dopamine is a chemical that your brain likes. It forms lots of habits around getting more of it and Dopamine goes hand and hand with anticipation.
[15:16] Just because it feels bad or painful doesn't mean it is wrong or that it isn't in your best interest to continue down the path. It might just be your subconscious rebelling about not getting the Dopamine it is used to. Take that painful moment as a good sign and celebrate it and keep moving forward.
[16:58] It is so important to put extra thought into your customer experience journeys. You want to reduce that friction and make it as easy as possible to do business with you.
[19:04] You are making it easier for someone to make a choice.
[20:47] Look for ways to reduce decisions and make it easier to work with you.
[21:12] Decision fatigue is another reason batching content and tasks is so important. When you set aside some time to plan out content in advance, you condense all those decisions into one. It is a super simple brain hack.
[22:17] Another closely related item to batching is delegating. Don't hold onto every little decision and choice on a project. Fight the urge to have everything done perfectly in the way you would do them and free up your brain from making decisions that someone else could do.
[24:04] Take breaks. Take a lunch break, weekend off, breaks throughout the day, and even naps.
[25:59] It isn't selfish or self-indulgent in a bad way. It's actually beneficial to your overall decision-making to take this time for yourself. It helps keep your brain clear, your decisions stronger, and your work better and more meaningful. Taking care of your brain is important.
[27:41] Melina's closing thoughts
[27:53] When you can streamline the things you do and reduce the unnecessary decisions in your life by making them habits, it can really help you to do more and better things.
[29:45] The more you streamline and plan while you are in a cold state (before the moment of distraction hits) the easier it will be in the long run.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
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The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
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Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Essentialism, by Greg McKeown
Good Habits, Bad Habits, by Wendy Wood
Friction, by Roger Dooley
The Selling Staircase, by Nikki Rausch
Sludge, by Cass Sunstein

Already Heard That One? Try These:

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243. Is "The Devil You Know" Really Better? Ambiguity / Uncertainty Aversion Dec 09, 2022

Show notes

Today is all about the aversion that humans have to uncertainty and ambiguity, our fear of the unknown, and how it can cause us to choose something we are familiar with even though it may not be in our best interest. While this can often align with risk aversion, they are not the same thing, and while they do often correlate, they don't have to.

More on that, and of course, loss aversion and inequity aversion – all the aversions – on the show today, but because this is a concept I'm guessing you'll "get" pretty easily, there is less on the research studies (they are linked in the notes). That leaves the bulk of the episode to focus on how this applies to you in two aspects of business: internal communication and customer experience. Ready? Let's get started.

Show Notes:

[00:43] Today is about the aversion that humans have to uncertainty and ambiguity, our fear of the unknown, and how it can cause us to choose something we are familiar with even though it may not be in our best interest.
[02:38] The most important thing to know is that we don't like the unknown. We don't like uncertainty in our choices and will prefer known risks over unknown risks. And also, because our brains are lazy and rely on rules of thumb, we often will avoid making complex (and not so complex) calculations.
[03:39] Consider the stock market. This can have unknown risks and so people can feel hesitant to put their money there even when the probabilities and rates of return are relatively known over time.
[05:30] As with everything, when you present information, how you talk about it matters more than what you are saying. Frame the information you present to highlight what IS known to make it easier for someone to see the positive. (Note: don't gloss over important risks or problems. Use good judgment.)
[07:47] When you are presenting a change at work, there are so so so many variables at play, and if you leave a lot of uncertainty and ambiguity – say you share too early or in an incomplete way – there is a good chance people will rebel against that unknown future state.
[09:17] A real problem that happens a lot (and is unfathomably detrimental to change initiatives at work), is when someone is given ambiguous information and they feel the need to get their own brain relief by reducing their own mental burden (and wanting someone to help fill that void) in a way that they will find any possible way to justify telling someone (or in some cases, many someones) to cover up that uncertainty.
[11:26] As George Lowenstein proposed, "Curiosity is like an itch on the brain and we need anything we can find to scratch that itch." When there is information to be found, we can fill the gap with learning. When there isn't like in these scenarios, it can be gossip, fear, and doomsday-style planning for the worst, which will cause people to rebel against the potential future before it even has a chance to bloom.
[12:55] Everyone on your team needs to be trained on how to share the information and when, and make sure the message is properly framed with regard to all the ambiguous pieces that could cause people to revert to the known instead of the unknown.
[14:19] Melina shares some questions you can ask yourself to help determine when it is the right time to share information.
[15:38] Just forcing yourself to take a step back and a calming breath as you consider what is really happening can be so helpful. You may want to get out and take a walk or sleep on it or whatever else you do to gain perspective.
[18:35] Sharing too much information can cause overwhelm as well, which is stressful and creates its own avoidance, so it is about sharing the right information in the right way at the right time to the right people. Remember that "fair" isn't always equal, and different people need to hear different information at different times.
[19:50] The early days of Covid are such a perfect case study for what happens when we feel uncertainty and a lack of control. When people feel a lack of control and like they can't do anything to protect themselves or their families, they may strive to find control in other areas – like hoarding toilet paper. It feels like you are doing something, and can reduce some of that stress.
[21:59] Time moves differently on the two sides of a decision in ambiguous times. This presents a big communication problem and disconnect that teams need to pay attention to if they want to be effective.
[22:51] The "no update update" can be really helpful for companies. I know you want to wait until everything is perfect to share, but that rumor mill is going to be piling up in a way that is working against you and you owe it to your employees to help relieve some of that stress.
[25:30] "No update updates" can be really helpful to diffuse some pressure when there is a lot going on and things are scary on the other side of the decision, but you can't do too many "no update updates" in a row without it starting to be a new problem…
[28:06] Let's look at the customer experience side. We like to think people want a lot of choices and to be treated as individuals with very unique experiences. While that can be true, there is also a real issue with the ambiguity side of things if we allow ourselves to rest on the easy answer of "it's custom."
[29:56] When people feel uncertain, they are more likely to look to what others like them do in this situation, so testimonials, social proof, and case studies are all your friends in fighting ambiguity aversion. You don't want or need to share all the nuts and bolts, but at least let them know that there is a process.
[32:02] You owe it to your clients and customers to take the time to make this as easy and streamlined as possible – and the benefit is it will make it easier for people to choose you and do business with you.
[32:29] Melina's closing thoughts
[35:02] Adapting your lenses and looking from multiple angles and depths is really important to make that possible, which is why an episode like this is so valuable.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
The Paradox of Choice, by Barry Schwartz
Sludge, by Cass Sunstein
Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein
Friction, by Roger Dooley

Top Recommended Next Episode: Inequity Aversion: That's Not Fair! (episode 224)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
RISK, AMBIGUITY, AND THE SAVAGE AXIOMS
The Itch of Curiosity
Ambiguity (uncertainty) aversion
Treatment decisions under ambiguity

242. Biases -- Math Is Hard (Refreshed Episode) Dec 06, 2022

Show notes

Today's episode is one that originally aired on June 14, 2019, as part of an 8-part series I called "All the Biases" which took hundreds of biases and sorted them into different categories. Because our brains are complex interconnected webs, this could have been done in many ways and the biases mentioned could belong in multiple areas. I selected groupings based on what I thought would make the most sense to this audience and applying the information about our biased brains into business.

This episode goes through a lot of concepts at a very high level. Unlike the foundations episodes of the podcast, which sometimes have a full hour dedicated to a full concept, many of these will get a sentence or only a few points. This episode is more about bringing your attention to the concepts, what is out there, and to scratch the surface of the complexity of our brains. I chose this episode as the refresh for this week because it mentions ambiguity and uncertainty aversion, which is the topic for this coming Friday's brand new foundations episode, so it felt like a nice way to set the stage for that. Ready to dig in on all the biases? Let's go…

Show Notes:

[00:39] Today's episode is one that originally aired on June 14, 2019, as part of an 8-part series I did called "All the Biases" which sorted hundreds of biases into different categories.
[03:14] Our brains are lazy and they like to take the path of least resistance to get to what they believe to be a good enough answer as quickly as possible.
[04:51] Because we are particularly lazy with math, we rely on the source of whatever is thrown our way. The brain would rather risk being wrong than take the time to do the numbers in everyday interactions.
[07:17] It is important to know what people care about when you set up your messaging.
[08:25] Due to "the less is better effect", our preference changes when we evaluate things alone versus comparing them against others.
[10:23] Due to the money illusion we tend to concentrate on the nominal or face value of our money instead of thinking of it in terms of how much it can get for us. We are more likely to spend money in smaller denominations.
[13:09] Due to the IKEA effect people will value things more that they made themselves or partially assembled than things they did not. The endowment effect is where we value things we own more than things we do not.
[15:45] Playing to win is not the same as playing not to lose (game theory).
[15:58] We have all sorts of bad habits when it comes to placing a value on time.
[18:20] If you have something people will be excited about you can make the wait a little more enjoyable to increase the experience. With a mundane task, reducing the wait as much as possible is key (or, often even better as discussed with Dilip Soman in episode 241, is to look at the opportunity within the wait).
[20:44] "Hot hands" are not real (hot hands fallacy) but our brains like to think this is true due to the clustering illusion. Our brains like to look for patterns.
[22:27] People are more likely to prefer the things they know to things that are unknown. We are much more likely to choose an option that we know the odds for even if they are terrible because we are so afraid of the unknown (ambiguity / uncertainty aversion).
[24:36] Consider the known and know that the unknown doesn't negate everything else when making a decision.
[25:59] When we want something today, we value it differently than tomorrow (time discounting). When we look at tomorrow or things we don't know about we expect the worst even when there is nothing to make us feel that way other than our own natures.
[26:55] Most of us don't properly understand how averages impact our lives every day and this can impact the decisions we make in business.
[27:15] Melina shares a story from Thinking Fast and Slow about regressive bias.
[29:47] The instructor has attached a causal interpretation to the inevitable fluctuations of a random process.
[32:00] Everything we know to be true is not necessarily true. It is easy to find the right answer to the wrong question.
[33:25] The lesson is to know that our brains like to tell us stories. They write their own rules and details that serve what the subconscious thinks is best. Taking a little extra time and being a little more open can change your view and your success rate.
[34:00] Melina's closing thoughts
[35:02] Adapting your lenses and looking from multiple angles and depths is really important to make that possible, which is why an episode like this is so valuable.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
Behavioral Science in the Wild, by Dilip Soman & Nina Mazar
Thinking Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman
Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein
Freakonomics, by Steven Levitt & Stephen Dubner

Top Recommended Next Episode: Behavioral Science in the Wild with Dilip Soman (episode 241)

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241. Behavioral Science in the Wild with Dilip Soman Dec 02, 2022

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Dilip Soman, coauthor of Behavioral Science in the Wild. Dilip is a Canada Research Chair in Behavioural Science and Economics and serves as a Director of the Behavioural Economics in Action Research Centre at Rotman [BEAR]. His research is in the area of behavioral science and its applications to consumer well-being, marketing, and policy. He has written multiple books including The Last Mile, The Behaviorally Informed Organization, and Behavioral Science in the Wild (all of which we will discuss a bit today) and he also teaches a massive open online course called "BE101X: Behavioural Economics in Action" on EdX.

That is actually how he and I first got introduced years ago when someone who was taking BE101X tagged us both on Twitter suggesting my podcast as a resource for students taking his class. We had connected a bit then but didn't end up making it the "last mile" to getting a meeting in the books (see what I did there?). So when this new book, Behavioral Science in the Wild came out, I knew it was the perfect time for us to have this first chat and it was so much fun! Listen in to hear about the pain of paying (and some interesting thoughts and research about dental work), the duration heuristic, the importance of virtual progress and supposedly irrelevant factors (SIFs) and so much more!

Show Notes:

[00:43] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Dilip Soman, coauthor of Behavioral Science in the Wild.
[03:31] Much of his early research was about how memory from pain depreciates.
[05:01] Memories of factual things remain. Memories of experiences tend to depreciate.
[06:30] Melina shares a recent experience at the dentist where her hygienist said that 40% of people don't want novocaine because they don't like feeling numb after the appointment.
[07:40] Dilip shares a story about his neighbor getting a snow blower.
[09:35] Often people don't want to pay more to get something done sooner. People learn in some domains that the longer the service the better.
[12:10] You would think that your overall evaluation of an experience depends on the sum of all of your experiences. Sometimes experiences feel better if you feel like you are making progress as opposed to actual progress.
[13:49] We are actually happier when we are driving than sitting in traffic (even if the trip takes longer).
[16:25] Waiting time is an opportunity. It is an opportunity to educate, amuse, and engage people.
[18:09] Dilip shares his background and the work that he does. He is a mechanical engineer by training.
[20:10] His entire motivation for coming to academia was to understand why people think and how we can help people lead happier lives. He has tried many ways to take science to the field.
[23:06] Medical sciences actually have a science for how to implement stuff called implementation science – behavioral science should have this too.
[23:41] The first book in his series, The Behaviorally Informed Organization talks about what an organization should do to embed behavioral science.
[25:15] Behavioral Science in the Wild was written to tackle the challenge that the results are not as formidable as we would like them to be.
[26:58] SIFs are supposedly irrelevant factors, things that we think should not influence decisions but do.
[29:04] Every intervention could have multiple interpretations and pathways.
[31:11] Successfully scaling an intervention doesn't mean that intervention has to be homogenous. You don't have to do the same thing for everyone. Often you actually need to customize it.
[32:23] There are two sources of differences in situations that might cause the effect of our interventions to change.
[34:47] Oftentimes we explain failures by just saying it is a different context (don't let this be your excuse and stop there).
[37:34] The moment you change the lens to try and understand the friction, you start seeing things.
[37:44] Think small. The success of big ideas gets tripped up by small things.
[39:22] Sometimes it is the little stuff that trips people up.
[41:02] Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best ones.
[43:16] Melina shares her closing thoughts.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
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Behavioral Science in the Wild, by Dilip Soman & Nina Mazar
The Behaviorally Informed Organization, by Dilip Soman
Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein
The Last Mile, by Dilip Soman
Misbehaving, by Richard Thaler

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A Megastudy of Text-Based Nudges Encouraging Patients to Get Vaccinated at an Upcoming Doctor's Appointment
Behaviourally Informed Organizations

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240. Pain of Paying: Everything Your Business Needs To Know (Refreshed Episode) Nov 29, 2022

Show notes

Today's episode is all about the pain of paying. This episode originally aired as number 59 in August of 2019. It was formed from a paper I had found and researched before I started doing interviews on the show. I had never met or really considered connecting with the author of the main paper I reference in the episode, Ofer Zellermayer (this paper was his doctoral dissertation). In addition to having an episode on this, I included a full chapter on the pain of paying in my first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You which came out in May 2021.

Well, funny enough, in October of that same year, he reached out to me! He said that he had gone to search something related to his paper and found the podcast episode so he dropped everything to listen! He approved of it (phew!) and reached out to connect, which is such an awesome thing. I'm always amazed at the power of the podcast and all the relationships and connections that have come from it over the years. Remember what I said last week in episode 238 about reciprocity? Business is a long game, give freely and you will be amazed at how great things can be.

Anyway, you may be wondering why I chose this episode for today's refresh. For one, with the holidays upon us and just finishing up Black Friday, Small Business Saturday, and Cyber Monday here in the states, it felt like a great time to talk about the pain of paying. Buying things can feel like physical pain, and it is important to know that, but not go too over the top to compensate for it. Deals and discounts abound this time of year, and people buy differently when they are shopping for gifts. It is all interesting stuff to keep in mind as you consider your own buying this holiday, and any sales you may be running for your business. It felt like the perfect time to refresh this episode for you.

Show Notes:

[00:38] Today's episode is all about the pain of paying.
[02:57] Buying things can feel like physical pain, and it is important to know that, but not go too over the top to compensate for it. Deals and discounts abound this time of year, and people buy differently when they are shopping for gifts.
[04:21] Buying things isn't all fun and games and the process of paying for things can actually cause pain for many people.
[06:14] Everyone experiences some level of pain of payment in various scenarios and those conditions tend to be pretty universal. Context is incredibly important when it comes to the pain felt making a payment.
[07:09] Melina shares the reasons and continuums that impact the pain felt in a payment.
[09:30] The brain loves a story. This story can impact the pain felt by paying.
[12:28] Price is not about price. Everything that comes before the price matters much more than the price itself.
[13:57] When the pain of paying is too much, people who don't buy things that they need or want because it is too difficult to give up money are called tightwads. Those who spend too much too easily and do not feel an appropriate amount of pain before or during the spending process are called spendthrifts.
[16:58] Being a tightwad is different than being frugal. Frugality is rooted in joy when saying money.
[19:16] 60% of people are unconflicted, 25% are tightwads, and 15% are spendthrifts. Your biggest challenge is overcoming the 25% who are tightwads.
[20:08] Tightwads are most sensitive to framing adjustments so that is where you can make a difference. Tightwads can have a difficult time paying for things with cash so make it easy to pay with a credit card.
[22:17] The pain was found to have less of an impact when buying what is considered virtue products than vice products. It is important to know what category your product falls into when you are looking at how to frame your message.
[23:46] One of the big issues for spendthrifts is that they do not account for or intuitively understand the opportunity cost at the moment when they are getting ready to buy or they want to buy things.
[25:52] Everyone will feel some sort of pain when paying. It is your job as the person selling to figure out what the buyer needs, what would benefit them the most, and then present it to them in a way that will have the last pain felt so they can actually enjoy spending the money.
[27:39] For your business, think about how people interpret what they are getting. If it was not their choice are there some other areas where you can help them feel like they did make a choice so there is less pain felt in the experience?
[31:26] When the pain of paying isn't felt as much it doesn't impact the experience as negatively.
[33:51] In some ways, you are making the loss and pain much more prevalent, reducing usage by consumers, and impacting the overall experience.
[35:29] The payment that is triggering pain doesn't have to be from money, it can be time as well.
[37:36] When consumption and payment are coupled together, you experience pain as you consume, it has a certain level of pain and joy associated. When you uncouple them, you experience each item separately which can increase each unless you implement them properly.
[40:03] The pain of payment can be removed when the payment is taken care of before consumption.
[42:12] "Strong buffering and hence reduced the pain of paying occurs when the consumer can directly connect the costs in terms of money with the benefits in terms of product or service. The ability to associate costs and benefits is just as important in physical pain."
[44:26] The pain of paying was potentially completely eliminated when it was given as a gift.
[45:06] Melina's closing thoughts
[45:26] The fact that we think about gifts differently than something we need — and that we want to spend LESS on the things we functionally NEED is so interesting.

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Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
How Customers Think, by Gerald Zaltman
Alchemy, by Rory Sutherland
Engaged, by Amy Bucher
Marketing to Mindstrates, by Will Leach

Top Recommended Next Episode: Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals (episode 123)

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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280711796_The_Pain_of_Paying
The Red and the Black: Mental Accounting of Savings and Debt
The Pain of Paying
Tightwads and Spendthrifts: An Interdisciplinary Review

239. Charities and Nonprofits: Does Behavioral Science Work the Same? with Luke Freeman Nov 25, 2022

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Luke Freeman, who is the executive director of Giving What We Can, an organization dedicated to creating a culture where people are inspired to give to the world's most effective charities. Giving What We Can was one of the first organizations in the world focused on effective altruism: the project of using evidence and reason to figure out how to best help others, and taking action on that basis.

I specifically asked Luke to be on the show today to discuss behavioral science concepts and how they line up with nonprofits. Sometimes, concepts perform exactly as they would in a traditional customer/company relationship when there is money being exchanged…but in other cases, research has found this isn't the case. When people are volunteering or donating some tactics that would show you are grateful or appreciative of a customer (like giving a gift) may backfire and feel…off.

Knowing this is a time of year when people who work in nonprofits or volunteer on boards are gearing up for year-end asks or doing strategic planning for next year and people may be thinking of their annual donations, it seemed like the perfect time for this episode to help everyone be more effective with their support of others now and into the future.

Show Notes:

[00:45] In today's conversation, I am joined by Luke Freeman, who is the executive director of Giving What We Can.
[03:08] Luke shares his background and the work that he does. His background is in marketing and he has recently moved to the nonprofit sector.
[05:14] When Giving What We Can was looking for an executive director, it was a perfect opportunity to do work that was really important to him.
[06:18] Typically, when people are giving to charity they are giving to something right in front of them or things that they have had some experience with.
[07:39] When people think about charity effectiveness generally the two things that they think of are overheads or administrative costs and impact.
[09:48] The first bar is trying to get people to look outside of themselves and try to improve the lives of others. Once you are there then you narrow in on where you can make the most impact.
[12:27] We can take time to think about what we care about, whose life/lives we are looking to impact, and what is going to be the best use of money to help.
[13:16] We often look at neglectivness because popular problems are often getting a lot of resources already. A lot of stuff is neglected because it fits in the prevention space.
[14:44] People are often willing to give right away out of pity or guilt, but that isn't sustainable giving.
[16:32] Sometimes behavioral science concepts that work in traditional buying relationships don't necessarily go the same way when looking at nonprofits and charities.
[18:45] Donors want to feel confident in their donations. Showing other humans giving and why they give is also quite motivating.
[22:29] If your company gets the right story it can really work for the company in terms of their own sales as well. People prefer that there be a logical story that is told of why that charity makes sense for the company they are partnering with.
[24:55] With any brand messaging when you can be specific and narrow the story down or follow the story of someone it has a bigger impact.
[27:33] Donation matching is also popular but there isn't a lot of strong evidence of its effect.
[28:52] Recurring donations make more sense for many donors and are much more sustainable.
[30:30] The door in the face technique and artificial surveillance cues don't tend to be as effective with donations. Explanation about context from Melina and why this might be happening – don't generalize results!
[33:25] Recognizing volunteer contributions and having a more human connection can be very helpful for keeping and increasing volunteers. Volunteering strategies are going to be very specific to the organization's context.
[35:00] Some volunteer opportunities are also donor nurturing programs in disguise (in a good way). It showcases the work that the charity does and even if they cost more to run, they are worth it because they create new donors.
[37:51] Don't give people reasons not to do the thing you want them to do. Also, after the fact appreciate it.
[39:10] If you do nothing else this month, what does Luke recommend? You really need to get in the head of your user and in this case that is a donor. Your existing donor base is the biggest asset you have.
[40:15] People really care that they are able to help others and they want their money to go as far as possible. A game of "hot or not" with Luke's rapid-fire tips.
[43:41] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[43:51] I love the idea of being more thoughtful before supporting the most popular organization you might see or hear about the most.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

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Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey
Influence, by Robert Cialdini
Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely
You Have More Influence Than You Think, by Vanessa Bohns
How Minds Change, by David McRaney

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Top Recommended Next Episode: Reciprocity: The Amazing Power of Giving (episode 238)

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238. Reciprocity: The Amazing Power of Giving (Refreshed Episode) Nov 22, 2022

Show notes

Today's episode is all about reciprocity, one of my very favorite concepts and approaches to life and business. For me, it is natural to give first and I enjoy being generous. I don't recall the specific names of the love languages, but nurturing relationships is something that matters a lot to me (or whatever they call it) and would definitely be one of mine.

I have seen time and time again how this comes back so much bigger when you give first and don't just do it to get stuff in return.

Life and business are a long game. It is so much better to be giving and generous up front and know that things will work out and take care of you eventually. This is also why I had last week's refreshed episode about the brainy benefits of gratitude and why I always talk about reciprocity around the holidays and why this episode, which originally aired as number 23 of the podcast, was an obvious choice for me to refresh for you today. This is also leading into Friday's brand new episode which will look at nonprofits and how generosity and giving and behavioral economics are the same and different when we step outside the typical customer/company relationship and into charitable giving. Now…let's dig in on reciprocity (which is much more than just free gifts).

Show Notes:

[00:39] Today's episode is all about reciprocity, one of my very favorite concepts and approaches to life and business.
[01:21] Life and business are a long game. It is so much better to be giving and generous up front and know that things will work out and take care of you eventually.
[02:49] Reciprocity is what happens when someone gives you something (whether you want it or not, whether you value it or not) and you feel obligated to give them something in return.
[04:03] Melina shares one of her favorite examples of reciprocity from The Big Bang Theory.
[05:44] Our brains tend to overvalue the gifts we are given and compensate in a way that exceeds the value of the original gift.
[08:42] The gift of kindness and a little effort goes a long way.
[09:20] Reciprocity presents itself in many ways but there are three categories: the free gift, the small ask on the path to something bigger, and the big ask to get something more realistic.
[09:44] The free gift is a little something that is given freely and helps make you a little more endearing in the eyes of the recipient.
[12:37] Another way to give out free gifts is with samples.
[15:17] Reciprocity and free gifts are often used when asking for donations.
[17:44] Other examples of free gifts are sales or discounts.
[19:05] Discounts will often cost you more so use them sparingly and with a lot of strategy.
[22:16] Be of service to other people; reciprocity is a key reason why.
[22:55] The next category of reciprocity is a small ask to get something bigger.
[25:56] What is the gift you can give that can encourage businesses to donate later? What you want to do is ask for them to perform a small and simple task they are unlikely to refuse. Then when you come back for a donation they are more likely to say yes.
[28:47] Getting someone to say yes once to something small increases the likelihood that they will say yes again.
[30:06] In the last category you start with a big, ridiculous, or even unreasonable ask to make the thing you actually want to ask for seem more reasonable and appealing by comparison.
[30:57] Melina shares about a study on a university campus asking for volunteers.
[34:38] If you are going to use the big-then-small tactic it should be the same person both times and you should do them really close together. One obvious place to use this tactic is in negotiations of any kind.
[36:06] Melina shares a story about setting rates and pricing.
[39:02] Melina's closing thoughts

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Influence, by Robert Cialdini
Stumbling on Happiness, by Dan Gilbert
What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
Happier Hour, by Cassie Holmes
You're Invited, by Jon Levy

Top Recommended Next Episode: Gratitude or Happiness: Which Comes First? (episode 236)

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237. Solving Modern Problems with a Stone Age Brain Nov 18, 2022

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Douglas Kenrick and David Lundberg-Kenrick to talk about their new book, Solving Modern Problems with a Stone-Age Brain. As you will hear about in the episode, they are a father and son team with very different backgrounds, so it is incredibly interesting to see how they came together to write this really incredibly interesting book.

I became acquainted with Doug and Dave through Bob Cialdini, who emailed me saying that this team from ASU had a new book out that he found to be fascinating and thought I would too. That was, of course, enough endorsement for me, and after some due diligence, I quickly confirmed that this was a book that was a great fit for the podcast. Doug and Dave have stories of a young Bob Cialdini as well as "Danny Kahneman" in their book as they share examples of how our brains have adapted (or not) while the world around us has changed dramatically and how that matters to all of us in life, and of course in business. You don't want to miss this!

Show Notes:

[00:46] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Douglas Kenrick and David Lundberg-Kenrick to talk about their new book, Solving Modern Problems with a Stone-Age Brain.
[03:06] Dave and Doug share their backgrounds and how they found themselves writing a book together. Dave's background is in film production.
[04:20] Doug is a social psychologist.
[05:59] Social motives are actually primary. We have basic needs like hunger and thirst and as we get a little older we start to become concerned with protecting ourselves.
[07:58] Organisms are designed to reproduce. So human beings go through the same basic phases as other animals. You develop your body, develop your social relationships, and then you find mates.
[10:25] The seven motives are basic resources (food and shelter), self-protection, affiliations or friendship, gaining status, finding and choosing a mate, maintaining romantic relationships, and kin care.
[12:04] There are some places in which our ancestral motives serve us well and there are others in which they serve us really badly.
[14:20] Melina recommends Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond and Evolutionary Ideas by Sam Tatam (previous guest on The Brainy Business).
[16:06] Stimulus control is incredibly important and you can control your environment to support what you want to do.
[18:00] You should never strive for perfection because you are always going to feel disappointed. It is really hard for us to balance all seven motives.
[21:11] We can only prioritize 1-2 of the motives at any given time.
[23:34] We can take small steps and do a little in each of these categories and when we do them they tend to make us feel healthier.
[25:25] Their book-writing process was to go for a walk in the morning and talk about the ideas they were going to write that day. After working and writing alone during the day when they took an evening walk they almost always came up with solutions to the problems they had found in the morning.
[28:05] They really enjoyed the process and learned a lot.
[29:58] Figuring out ways to present things in a way that is ethical is really important too.
[32:22] There is something really interesting about ideas that come from dialogue.
[33:11] What about applying this in business? Start by asking how your business can fill the seven fundamental motives for your customers and employees.
[35:07] The thing you might think your brand is about might not actually be the only way to convey your message. Think about what your brand conveys and what you really want it to convey.
[37:48] You can ask yourself, "How can this job satisfy my motives?" You will do better on the job if you walk in and regularly consider, "How can I satisfy the motives of my co-workers and bosses?"
[39:38] Public compliments are one of the best things leaders and coworkers can do and it is a really effective thing.
[40:59] Learning people's names is one of the classic ways to give a little bit of affiliation and status.
[43:45] Work-life balance is a big thing for both finding, keeping a mate, and parenting.
[45:04] Stick to lifting people up and always giving them more status. Give them more autonomy and time also.
[48:40] Human beings are designed to not be selfish, but to help other people. The best thing you can do for yourself is to help others.
[50:49] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[51:24] Often, a simple reframing of your message can make all the difference in the world, and understanding the things that will motivate our stone-age minds to act -- even in this modern world -- is so, so useful in finding messaging that sticks.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect: