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226. Change Management: It's Still Not About the Cookie (Refreshed Episode) Oct 11, 2022

Show notes

Today's episode is a very special one, it is our first-ever edition from the vault. What does that mean? Well, for one thing, we now have TWO episodes of The Brainy Business coming to you each week, starting with this one. It is an episode from the back catalog that I think is super relevant and timely for you right now, so it got a little refresh.

Why this one and why today? Firstly, it is because change is ever-present in our lives and businesses, and in this age of The Great Resignation, quiet quitting, returning to work, hybrid offices and so much more. Managing and leading through change is something everyone seems to be talking about these days, so this episode is one I think will help a lot of people. As you will hear in this episode, change is "not about the cookie" it is more about the way a change is presented than anything else, so you have the power to influence how others react to whatever information you are presenting.

Remember change is in the micro-moments, so it doesn't have to be anything big. Look for those small tweaks that could make a huge difference.

Show Notes:

[00:38] Today's episode is a very special one. It is our first-ever Tuesday episode (double the brainy!!) and our first edition from the vault.
[02:14] Change is in the micro-moments, so it doesn't have to be anything big. Look for those small tweaks that could make a huge difference.
[03:41] Melina shares the cookie story. I want you to imagine that we are walking down the street...
[05:56] It's not about the cookie, the change, or the price. It is about the way the information is presented.
[08:28] Change management is leading through change.
[09:02] Change and getting people to change is all about selling them on your perspective and getting them to buy in and commit even when money is not being exchanged.
[12:02] Our subconscious brain is like a small child. We would all like to think we have grown past this point, but much of our decision-making is still done on this level.
[14:25] Consider the ripples. One small decision or word on an advertising campaign or a change conversation can have a different impact on different people and it is based on their perspectives.
[16:30] The overall brand and campaign message needs to be consistent. You also need to identify what an individual in each of these groups is supposed to do when they see the message and what they need to hear to get them to take the next step.
[18:46] We often run a message for consistency's sake across everything without thinking about what those people need to hear, where they are coming from, and what matters to them. We think about the group as a whole instead of considering the individuals and what they need in that moment to take the best course of action.
[20:41] When confronted with change our brains are trained to revert to a place of fear and they are very good at dwelling on small items.
[21:56] The endowment effect: our brains favor things they own over other things.
[23:55] Studies show it takes double the joy felt by a gain to outweigh the pain felt by a loss.
[26:07] When given the choice people tend to go with the status quo and favor it very heavily…especially when there are many options presented.
[28:45] Change management conversations are more likely to have the brain flagged and on high alert.
[31:32] Be thoughtful of the way the meeting or discussion is framed or called together. If you are delivering bad news or presenting a change you want them to buy in on, you don't want to oversell the meeting.
[33:58] You want to make sure the document is outlined in a way that helps them come to the best conclusion themselves so their brain takes ownership of the change you are going to propose to them.
[34:46] When you are proposing a big change you need to do your homework. When the stakes are high your prep work needs to be significant as well.
[37:09] Putting in the groundwork allows you to have advocates. Having advocates is so key in branding.
[38:57] When people are on edge and likely to get a fight or flight response, triggering on scarcity could work against you if not done properly.
[42:49] Framing is everything when it comes to change management. It isn't what you say, it is how you say it.
[43:49] You need to know why you want them to take the step, why it matters, and get them invested in the proposed outcome.
[46:20] Framing the benefits and talking about the good stuff instead of helping them dwell on the bad is how you get changes to move forward.
[47:49] You want them to feel comfortable coming back to you with questions. You are allies in this.
[49:24] What tiny moments of change do you see around you for your next initiative in the way you will be presenting change?

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

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Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
Nudge, by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein
Thinking Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman
Quit, by Annie Duke
How Minds Change, by David McRaney

Top Recommended Next Episode: What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You (episode 225)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
The Endowment Effect, Loss Aversion, and Status Quo Bias

225. What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You Oct 07, 2022

Show notes

Today is a very exciting day, as it is the last episode before I'm officially a multi-book author, because my second book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You will officially be out and hitting mailboxes on Tuesday, October 11! There is something else very, very exciting kicking off on Tuesday as well, so be sure to stay to the end to hear all about that…

In this episode, we are going to do a deep dive into the book. I talk about what you can expect to find within it, why I wrote it, who it is for, and (because this is quite possibly one of the things I get asked about the most these days) some fun insights into the writing process and my tips for you in creating your own content (whether it is a book or something else).

Show Notes:

[00:39] Today is a very exciting day, as it is the last episode before I'm officially a multi-book author, because my second book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You will officially be out and hitting mailboxes on Tuesday, October 11!
[02:34] This book has been in the works for a long time, really since episode seven came out of the podcast way back on August 3, 2018. My framework for change has grown and adapted a bit over the years, but even through: creating a 10-week course I teach virtually via the Human Behavior Lab at Texas A&M University, countless speaking engagements and corporate training, and the full process of writing this book…it has really kept its bones.
[04:29] What are my secrets for book writing? The first secret is that I'm naturally a good writer and I've spent a lot of time writing and editing all sorts of content from 3-word ads to 70,000 word books and everything in between. I also dedicate the time I need to be able to write.
[06:14] My writing is made possible by a very supportive family, especially my husband Aaron. I have dedicated both of my books to him because truly, The Brainy Business and all its content would not be possible without him.
[07:38] It isn't all writing every moment of every day, the brain needs breaks. I was able to go on a few jogs by the ocean which was nice and I also had some mindless crafty entertainment.
[08:47] Taking the time to let your mind exist and make connections is so so so important when working on content. Building those contemplative moments into your day is really useful.
[11:30] You may have heard this one already, but you need to just get stuff out of your head and onto the paper (virtual or otherwise). My process starts with some sort of an outline. I usually do this with software that allows for virtual cards or sticky notes that I can move around.
[13:07] Once you have your initial outline I recommend starting with whatever feels the easiest. In my experience, this is NOT the beginning. Whatever that easiest thing is, start there and write anything you can to get it out of your brain.
[15:41] I wrote the first book in three months. For book two, I was able to start writing in December of 2021 and the full manuscript was due at the first of February; so only two months this time.
[17:27] My process allows for strict priorities and focus in short bursts. This lets me give each thing my all until it is done and then move on to the next.
[18:09] Done is better than perfect. Sometimes you have to let things speak to you in the moment and go with where you end up even if it is different than you intended.
[21:34] I wrote the book because I could see that this concept of change and understanding biased brains and how they impact our workplace was on the uptick in businesses. I could see that this was going to be critical for businesses moving forward and if I wanted to be on the front end of that wave.
[23:39] The book is for people who want to have more influence at work and to make it so change is easier for themselves and everyone around them.
[25:01] This book is also set up to help teams of people work together within an organization to get a shared common language and be able to grow together to be better managers that help move a company forward.
[26:01] According to Gallup, four out of five current managers do not have the talent required to excel in the job in a way that will help the company and its employees to thrive.
[28:16] What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You is here to help every manager—whether they have the natural talent for the role or not—to be excellent at leading their teams through change. If you want to put in the work to be a great manager and are willing to learn and adapt based on the science I present to you in this book, I truly believe you can achieve that goal.
[30:11] This book is also segmented into three parts.
[31:08] Part 1 is called Big Plans and Micro-Moments and it has four chapters within it. This part is really about understanding our brains, understanding how change works within the brain, understanding what it means to be a great manager, and how to think about change overall.
[31:36] Part 2 is called Biases and Concepts.
[33:18] We are all biased. We are never going to eliminate that from our lives or organizations. Instead of looking to eliminate bias, companies need to look to understand and leverage it.
[36:15] A chapter in this section has one of my favorite openings of the entire book with details of the Challenger disaster and what we can all learn from it.
[37:54] The last section of Part 2 is called Us vs. Them and it digs in on all the ways our brains are biased to look at people who are different from us.
[38:37] The final part of the book is called Change Framework. This last part of the book brings it all together.
[41:30] You can read the first chapter of the book now for free to see if it is a fit for you.
[42:52] BIG ANNOUNCEMENT: We are going to be having episodes coming out twice a week starting this Tuesday, October 11th!

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
The Voltage Effect, by John List
How Minds Change, by David McRaney
How to Change, by Katy Milkman

Top Recommended Next Episode: Temptation Bundling (episode 136)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
20 Podcasting Insights and Tips After 200 Episodes of The Brainy Business

224. Inequity Aversion: That's Not Fair! A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Sep 30, 2022

Show notes

Today we are digging in on inequity aversion – which is featured in chapter 12 of my new book, What Your Employees Need And Can't Tell You, titled "That's Not Fair!"

Fairness is a fascinating topic and one that is really important in business. We strive to have fair standards in our business practices, in how we pay our employees, and in the offers we provide to customers…but should everything always be perfectly "fair"?

Does it have to be fair? And…what the heck is "fair" anyway? Who decides what is fair? (and is that fair?) Tune in to hear all about it. You will also get to hear why fairness is like air, and what a bunch of capuchins can teach us about work (and why your employees might be ready to throw cucumbers). Listen in to learn all about inequity aversion, why it matters to business, and some tips for how to keep this from being a big problem in your work.

Show Notes:

[00:40] Today we are digging in on inequity aversion – which is featured in chapter 12 of my new book, What Your Employees Need And Can't Tell You, titled "That's Not Fair!"
[02:32] Inequity aversion is a pretty easy concept on the surface. We want things to be equal (unless we are the ones getting the benefits…then we tend to be a little more lax in our demands for equality, right?)
[03:19] I want to point out that fair and equal are not the same, and furthermore, equality is not the same as equity – remember this is inequity aversion, not inequality aversion. Equality means that everyone is given the same resources and opportunities. Equity recognizes that not everyone has the same circumstances and therefore provides resources in a way that can help receive an equal outcome.
[06:02] What is "fair" and who gets to decide? One of my favorite quotes on this is from Mathew Liebermann who said, "Fairness seems a bit like air—its absence is a lot more noticeable than its presence."
[08:22] When we realize we aren't being treated or paid fairly – or even if we just suspect that something isn't fair everything else can come to a grinding halt.
[11:25] According to a Bloomberg article and research by Joblist of 15,000 workers who quit during this time, 40% said the job market was more difficult than they expected, 20% miss people at their old company (and many of them didn't think that was going to impact them as much as it did), 17% said their new job is not what they hoped for, 16% realized their old job was better than they realized, and 9% have found themselves in a company with bad culture and management. 14% of those surveyed who had quit their jobs said they regretted it.
[14:01] One thing we do know is that we pretty universally dislike and reject things that are unfair, the problem (as you are seeing here) is that what is fair is relative.
[16:54] This brings up another interesting facet of inequity aversion – because we hate the inequitable, unfair and unequal, we will sometimes put ourselves in harm's way or give ourselves a worse outcome to keep someone else from getting an even better one.
[19:07] A perceived slight from years back could combine with confirmation bias and the focusing illusion so one employee is sabotaging themselves and your team to keep someone in their or another department from "winning" anything.
[21:00] Whenever there is a question of fairness, motivation will tank. We become distracted and disengaged regardless of whether we are intrinsically or extrinsically motivated. Incentives and motivation are so important when we think about job performance.
[22:01] When it comes to our aversion to inequity, the best thing to do is to make sure your practices and policies (whether it is pay or anything else) are, of course, fair, and equitable to begin with.
[23:37] Remember, of course, that something may not be equal and still be fair and equitable.
[24:52] Start by asking what you are trying to achieve.
[26:12] Next, what are your priorities?
[28:04] Understanding the why behind the decision is really important. Some people might still feel slighted, but that is ok you just need to align that with your priorities and the different groups you are working with.
[29:18] You have to be looking for the worst way this could be interpreted and what you might have missed. Who aren't you thinking about? What aren't you thinking about? Do not skip this step.
[30:01] Don't rush something out and expect people will give you the benefit of the doubt–it doesn't often work that way.
[30:50] Be as open, clear and transparent as you can be with as much as you can. This doesn't mean you need to publicize how much everyone makes, but you can explain what the wage bands are for each role and why, or if there is an algorithm to determine who gets a bonus or what their base level salary will be or where the cap is, make that publicly known.
[32:06] Once you can make it equitable, explainable, AND transparent, it allows the focus to come off of the external motivations and incentives (those grapes and cucumbers) and focus instead on the purpose of their work and hopefully doing a job they love. Everything becomes easier when people aren't concerned about fairness, inequality, or inequity.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Drive, by Dan Pink
Power of Regret, by Dan Pink
What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race, by Kwame Christian

Top Recommended Next Episode: Game Theory (episode 62)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
Monkey's Reject Unequal Pay
Why Monkeys (and Humans) are Wired for Fairness
Millions of Americans Regret the Great Resignation
Anomalies: The Ultimatum Game

223. Negativity Bias: Cockroaches and Cherries, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Sep 23, 2022

Show notes

Today we are digging in on negativity bias, which is featured in chapter 9 of my book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You. I also talked about this when Adam Hansen was on the show back in episode 176 and have planned to give it a dedicated episode for a long time, yet it has continued to hang out waiting for its moment in the sunshine – until today! It's funny, because I think it really says something about my personality that optimism bias was episode 34 and we aren't getting to negativity bias until nearly 200 weeks later.

I'm ok with that, and, I'm so glad that this is finally becoming an episode because it really is a fascinating concept and super important for everyone in life and business. As with all the biases and heuristics you hear about on this show, I'm confident this will be one of those things that really changes your whole life and perspective once you realize it is there and impacting you. It's shocking how rampant this can be running in our lives and businesses. Today we will cover the four aspects of negativity bias (plus a "bonus" one) as well as ways to think about this in your life and work.

Show Notes:

[00:41] Today we are digging in on negativity bias, which is featured in chapter 9 of my book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You.
[03:13] In its most basic form, negativity bias is our tendency to put more emphasis on negative information than positive.
[03:57] Negativity bias, putting more weight on the bad than the good. Being on high alert and paying attention to potential threats was key for our survival. This is a good thing and it still serves us well a lot in our life. Sometimes, the negativity bias goes a bit far and can result in phobias or other avoidances that don't serve us well.
[06:20] This is one aspect of negativity bias, where we put way, way, way more weight on the negative input than the positive. Our being a herding species is part of this as well. Being on the outskirts with the herd was something else that greatly threatened our survival back in the day.
[06:53] In today's world, this overweighting of negatives can be problematic and cause a real negative spiral that keeps you stuck; focused on the bad in a way that causes you to ignore all the good stuff. You can choose to focus on the good stuff and, while still learning from the bad, don't let it have so much more impact on you than the good.
[07:46] There are four aspects of negativity bias (as outlined in the original paper). The first is negative potency. It says that even if the two incidents were of the same type and size, they won't necessarily be felt or remembered the same way. We tend to have longer memories of these negative items than the positive ones and feel them more strongly when they occur.
[08:09] The second aspect is of steeper negative gradients. This says that as we get closer to a negative event, its felt more and more – and at an intensity that is more than a positive event.
[10:10] Negativity bias is definitely related to loss aversion and they are similar (but not the same). Negativity bias is when people pay more attention to bad news than good news. Loss aversion is when people are more worried about losing something they have than getting something new.
[10:42] Now, we move on to negativity dominance. This was sort of covered in the negative potency section, but it is more about how when there is an event, the negative events will make it so our whole impression skews toward the negative.
[11:35] It is important to think about the overall experience people are having with you. Even one negative element can drag an otherwise good thing down.
[14:22] Knowing that people are going to have this negativity bias – both those presenting the change and those receiving it – is important as you consider how you introduce anything to anyone.
[16:42] Our final aspect is negative differentiation, which is about the effort it takes to process an event. The negative stuff is more difficult to process, so it uses up more energy and cognitive resources. That makes us remember it more and for longer.
[18:54] Knowing that the negativity bias exists and taking a step back to get out of your own way is important as you look at your own behaviors and actions.
[19:54] We are also biased to give people like us the benefit of the doubt and not give that to people who are outside our circle of empathy.
[22:02] Contagion is such an important piece and it has one of my all-time favorite examples and lines because it is very memorable and you instantly get the problem and how this can be applied in other areas. "A single cockroach can ruin a bowl of cherries, but an individual cherry will do nothing for a bowl of cockroaches."
[23:53] When you think of reputation, that one negative can contaminate everything else and color your entire perspective of them and everything they touch.
[24:35] It is important to realize when negativity bias, and specifically contagion, could be coloring a lot more than it should.
[26:44] As we wrap up today's episode, I want you to think about the negativity bias and how it is impacting you in your life and at work.
[28:30] Learn from the negatives and let them sink in, but don't let them control you and take over everything.
[30:25] Make sure to clear out the cockroaches before you work on finding better cherries.
[32:02] Because of the negativity bias, we really love avoiding bad things. If we avoid all the things that have risks associated with them, we will not grow and change, and for both people and companies, that is a problem.
[33:58] Pointing out flaws in ideas isn't always saving you from a mistake. It might be saving you from the thing that could change everything for the better if you gave it a chance. What can you take a chance on today?

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Outsmart Your Instincts, by Adam Hansen
Power of Regret, by Dan Pink
What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger
Evolutionary Ideas, by Sam Tatam

Top Recommended Next Episode: Optimism Bias (episode 34)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
The Negativity Bias in User Experience
Negativity Bias, Negativity Dominance, and Contagion
Why is the news always so depressing?
What Is Negativity Bias and How Can It Be Overcome?

222. How To Test Nudges In Your Ads and Social Media, with Phill Agnew Sep 16, 2022

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Phill Agnew, host of the Nudge podcast. Phill and I have gotten to be friends over the last couple of years and I've been honored to have been a guest on his podcast before, but this is the first time he is joining me here on The Brainy Business.

So, you may be wondering…why now? As you'll hear me share in our conversation, one main reason is that Phill has been EVERYWHERE on my social media recently. He is doing some amazing, relatable, applicable work. I love how he is showcasing the simple tests he is conducting to really practice what he preaches in the incorporation of behavioral economics into a business application. In today's episode, he explains some of his top tips and insights – in a way you can absolutely go through and try yourself. Listen in and then get out there and create your own test to get started! (And share it with us using the social links below.) Small changes can make a big impact.

Show Notes:

[00:40] In today's conversation, I am joined by Phill Agnew, host of the Nudge podcast.
[01:15] Phill is doing some amazing work. I love how he is showcasing the simple tests he is doing and really practicing what he preaches in incorporating behavioral economics into business applications.
[03:23] Phill shares about himself, his background, and what he does in the world of behavioral science.
[04:34] In 2019 he launched the Nudge podcast. He launched the podcast to learn more, interview experts, and pick their brains to learn even more. He has been growing the show for the last three years. It is really important to him that everything on the show is applicable.
[06:15] Small changes can make a big difference.
[07:27] Phil shares about his tests on TikTok using the curiosity gap.
[09:25] He found that his curiosity gap-inspired videos made people far more likely to watch the full video and become a follower of his channel.
[11:38] Before launching The Brainy Business podcast Melina went live on Facebook for 30 days to increase excitement.
[13:34] VIDEO TIP: Pack in as much curiosity as you can in the first 10 seconds.
[14:49] He spends a lot of time advertising and testing things out on Reddit.
[16:27] Phill shares about testing social proof. Social proof is the idea that we follow the actions of others.
[17:32] 75% of the time people will give the answer they know is wrong to go with the group. Showcasing an action that other people are doing can be really smart.
[19:08] Applying these small nudges to the way you communicate can make your communications more effective.
[20:14] When testing, your variant and control should be very similar. The only thing that is different is the thing you are trying to test. He uses Google surveys a lot.
[21:17] Fresh start effects can be really powerful. Phill shares about his tests using the fresh start effect.
[23:56] Classic commitment devices can definitely have an effect as well.
[25:38] Phill shares another Google survey he did about podcast cover art and what he learned from the test.
[28:01] Check out Phill's podcast Nudge.
[28:41] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[31:32] As you move forward with the insights from the episode, it is time to overcome your own time discount tendencies and optimism bias. Take a moment now to do something to start applying what you learned in the show today. Now is the time to do one thing.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

The Choice Factory, by Richard Shotton
How to Change, by Katy Milkman
When, by Dan Pink
Power of Regret, by Dan Pink
Sludge, by Cass Sunstein

Connect with Phill:

Top Recommended Next Episode: How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (episode 63)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
The Coca-Cola Experiment
Only 2% of People Will Return A Christmas Card From A Stranger
Solomon Asch - Conformity Experiment

221. How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race, with Kwame Christian Sep 09, 2022

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Kwame Christian, who I believe is our first 3-peat guest! (Though Dr. Marco Palma from the Human Behavior Lab at Texas A&M has technically been on the show three times, once was part of a panel when we launched the certificate program so I am going to say that Kwame is in a class all his own (for so many reasons)).

Kwame was also my first guest on the first-ever live show of The Brainy Business on Fireside earlier this week. If you haven't heard of Fireside yet or checked out the show there, and if you don't yet have enough Kwame (I know I never will!) check out the replay within these show notes. Fireside is a new platform co-founded by Mark Cuban where I was recently invited to do a show. It lets the audience come up on stage to participate and ask questions. It is really cool and I'm going to be testing it out for a bit to see if this is a good permanent addition to the content you get from The Brainy Business. So if you want to stay around and have a chance to come behind the scenes and be part of the show, please come join us there. And of course, listen in on this episode as Kwame and I talk all about his new book, How to Have Difficult Conversations about Race.

Show Notes:

[00:40] In today's conversation, I am joined by Kwame Christian, who I believe is the first guest to be here on the show three times AND my first ever guest on the live show on Fireside.
[01:42] Fireside is a new platform co-founded by Mark Cuban where I was recently invited to do a show. It lets the audience come up on stage to participate and ask questions.
[03:20] Today we are talking all about Kwame's new book, How to Have Difficult Conversations about Race, which officially comes out on September 13th.
[05:18] Kwame shares about himself and his background. Kwame is an attorney, does work in negotiation, and has a background in psychology.
[07:27] Kwame shares his journey in writing his new book. He wants to be where the toughest conversations are.
[08:47] He is not here to teach people how to think about race. He is here to offer guidance on how to talk about race.
[11:11] We are all biased in different types of ways and we need to think more broadly about bias. People need to have a more empowered stance when it comes to bias.
[12:32] Bias is real and it is going to play a role so why don't we take the time to calibrate and manage the role of bias in our favor? It is a strategic tool we can leverage to our advantage.
[14:22] We are biased against bias.
[15:18] Let's live with the fact that we have biases and learn to manage them.
[17:22] If we are not making any mistakes that might be an indication of us not interacting with people that see the world differently than us.
[18:11] We have to be outcome-oriented in our conversations. We need to know our goal and then reverse engineer a strategy for that goal.
[20:04] We need to recognize that we need to be aware of the biases but not fear them. Biases make us human.
[23:07] Kwame shares a true story from his book about a man named Daryl that tries to convert KKK members. He has converted over 200 members.
[25:51] We have more persuasive power than we realize.
[28:27] In these conversations we are not going to try to win.
[30:02] His new book can be used by anybody that has any goal in a difficult conversation.
[31:54] Anything that does not violate a physical law is negotiable. We can negotiate anything, we just need the right mindset.
[34:05] Conflict is an opportunity. These difficult conversations provide us with opportunities. We just need to be curious and listen.
[36:26] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[37:29] Not every battle is yours to fight. Choose where you can have or want impact and go full force, one strategic decision at a time.

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Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Finding Confidence in Conflict, by Kwame Christian
How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race, by Kwame Christian
What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
How Minds Change, by David McRaney
What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer

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220. Cobra Effect: No Loophole Goes Unexploited, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Sep 02, 2022

Show notes

Today, we get to talk about a very fun concept known as the cobra effect or the cobra problem. It is something I included in my upcoming book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, and I was very surprised at some of the early readers who work in the field and wrote comments like "WOW!" or called out this concept by name in their endorsement blurbs for the book.

As I have said on the show before, there are hundreds of concepts, biases and heuristics in behavioral economics and behavioral science that are impacting our actions every day – it is near impossible to keep up with all of them, and sometimes you find a little golden nugget like this one which can be a new discovery for people even when they are experts in the field. I'm definitely not saying that I am the first person to talk about it or that no one knows about it. Rather, when I realized that it might be a little more obscure than I thought, it became a clear contender for its own dedicated episode sooner than later – plus it is awesome and the story of how it got that name is really interesting. Wanna hear that story and how you can use the cobra effect in business? Listen in…

Show Notes:

[00:41] Today, we get to talk about a very fun concept known as the cobra effect or the cobra problem. It is something I included in my upcoming book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You.
[03:18] It all started way back when the British ruled India and the city of Delhi was infested with cobras. In order to help with the problem, the British set up a bounty and would pay anyone who brought in a cobra skin to help clean up the streets and keep people safe…but things didn't work out quite as intended.
[04:45] And while the effect got its namesake from this cobra incident, it is by no means an isolated problem. Apparently, there was a very similar problem in Hanoi in 1902 when the French put in their sewer system, which essentially became a rat superhighway.
[06:21] Just like the cobras, when the French got wise of the scheme, they did away with the bounty and everyone let their rats go free creating an even worse (quickly multiplying) problem.
[07:49] Our next example comes from Bogota, Colombia, which tried to cut down on pollution and congestion on the roads in 2008 by limiting how often you could drive.
[09:42] In my research I also found a story where the government of Quebec gave considerably more money to mental health programs than to orphanages from 1940-1960. So, to try and help those orphaned children who otherwise would have had nowhere to go, the Catholic Church of Quebec reportedly misdiagnosed many children with mental illnesses to get more funding.
[11:10] The main lesson from the cobra effect is that "no loophole goes unexploited." Incentives are great and they can absolutely work, but you need to be really thoughtful about what someone might do to benefit from whatever you are proposing.
[12:16] It is always so important to look beyond the surface solution and consider the problem you are really solving before you move forward with a course of action. When you think about the problem, it is important to get out of your own perspective and understand what someone really needs and what is practical for them.
[13:58] You need to consider the problem you are trying to solve AND how it lines up with the real behavior of other people, as well as what they have control over and what you have control over in the new world you are proposing. Nudges and other tactics can only get you so far. You also have to really get out of your own way and think about how someone might see this differently than you.
[15:41] There are lots of valid and useful incentives and not everyone is going to take advantage of the loophole or even see it…but if the loophole is big enough and there are enough people willing to jump through it that can be a time where your solution makes the problem worse.
[17:42] Every decision has an impact – even the decision to do nothing – and changing one thing can change many things that are related even if you don't think about them (and it isn't always in a positive way).
[19:11] It is important to spend some more time thinking about those possible loopholes, and it is important to get into the mindset of the person who would be in the situation.
[19:49] The ability to be "in the moment" with someone else, to empathize and imagine we are part of that experience and show "How might we?" is so valuable and such an amazing skill. When you put yourself in that space, you can think differently, and that is really helpful when you are looking for exploitable loopholes.
[21:03] Melina shares questions you should ask if you are considering implementing a payout (use your free worksheet to follow along).
[22:19] Even small incentives can cause people to look for loopholes and to find opportunities for their own benefit.
[25:38] Rules need to be put in place to adjust for possible loopholes. Maybe there are restrictions that need to go in place, but if there are too many restrictions, take a moment to consider if the plan is a good one or if it is time to go back to the drawing board.
[27:54] It is better to be thoughtful about these loopholes and restrictions up front instead of looking back after the fact and regretting the choices you could have made differently once you have the power of hindsight.
[29:02] If you haven't already, will you consider pre-ordering a copy of my upcoming book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You? In it, I talk about the cobra effect, and so many other important concepts from behavioral science and how they can be applied to business to help teams work and communicate better together.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

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Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Choice Hacking, by Jennifer Clinehens
Freakonomics, by Stephen Dubner & Steven Levitt
Behavioral Insights, by Michael Hallsworth
Drive, by Dan Pink
What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer

Top Recommended Next Episode: Nudging for Good at Walmart with Sarah Wilson (episode 206)

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Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
The Cobra Effect: No Loophole Goes Unexploited
What is the Cobra Effect
The Cobra Effect
The Most Ironic Examples Of The Cobra Effect

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219. Using Behavioral Science in Marketing with Nancy Harhut Aug 26, 2022

Show notes

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Nancy Harhut, cofounder and chief creative officer of HBT Marketing. She loves getting people to take action and specializes in blending best-of-breed creative techniques with behavioral science to prompt response – online, offline, and in-person.

She has spoken around the world, including numerous appearances at SXSW, and has been named one of the 10 Most Fascinating People in B2B Marketing, a Social Top 50 Email Marketing Leader, and a Top 40 Digital Strategist. Her articles and work have appeared in Admap, US Ad Review, Target Marketing, DM News, Graphis Magazine, B@B Magazine, Who's Mailing What, Copywriting Insider, and "Open Me Now" by H.G. Lewis.

Prior to co-founding HBT Marketing, Nancy held senior creative management positions with Hill Holliday, Mullen, and Digitas. She's helped some of the world's biggest brands create successful campaigns. Nancy and her teams have won over 200 awards for digital and direct marketing effectiveness, for clients such as AT&T, H&R Block, the GM Card, Dish Networks, and Nationwide. Today, we get to talk about her first book, Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, which just came out this week here in the U.S. Dive into the conversation and get ready to take action.

Show Notes:

[00:44] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Nancy Harhut, cofounder and chief creative officer of HBT Marketing.
[02:05] Her first book, Using Behavioral Science in Marketing just came out this week.
[04:20] Nancy shares about herself, her background, and how she found herself in the world of behavioral science.
[06:01] She took principles and research from behavioral science and applied/tested them in marketing.
[07:37] Anything she could find that might give her clients an advantage or extra edge was something she wanted to explore.
[10:20] It is important to test so we know what is working and what doesn't work.
[11:10] Nancy's examples in the book are very tangible, clear, easy, thorough, and thoughtful.
[13:49] Social proof is incredibly powerful. Nancy shares examples of using social proof with her clients and the results.
[16:31] Nancy shares why she wrote her new book. People were often asking if she had a book, including her now publisher Kogan Page.
[16:54] Behavioral science and marketing absolutely work. Writing a book helps many more people to benefit from it.
[19:19] She wanted to create a book that was short on science and long on applicability. She wanted it to be practical, easy to read, and actionable. ("Mission accomplished!" says Melina.)
[21:30] She started her book with emotional and rational thinking because it was a good foundational factor and from there she started to talk about behavioral science principles that are strongly linked to emotion.
[23:24] Having more good books in the world is always a positive thing.
[25:44] If you present somebody with a couple of options as opposed to just one thing, they are much more likely to make a buying decision at the moment. If there are two options the question automatically changes to "Which of these two do I want?"
[28:29] When saying "You have to make a choice and if you don't, someone else is going to make it for you" leverages autonomy bias. There was a bigger response because people didn't want someone making choices for them.
[30:04] Behavioral science is not just for marketing. It is applicable across so many areas and professions.
[33:04] Nancy shares an example of using choice architecture with a client that sold voluntary benefits.
[34:47] They made accepting the meeting the easy choice and the path with the least resistance.
[35:57] Melina shares an example of a blood drive on a college campus.
[39:22] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[39:42] You are constantly communicating with people and there are small tweaks to your messaging that can make all the difference.
[40:13] Melina's new book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You is coming out on October 11th, 2022.
[42:04] If you enjoy the experience I've provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!)

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

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A megastudy of text-based nudges encouraging patients to get vaccinated at an upcoming doctor's appointment
Behavior Change for Good Initiative

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218. Do Nudges Work? with Michael Hallsworth Aug 19, 2022

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Michael Hallsworth, managing director for the Americas division of the Behavioral Insights Team, or BIT. Michael was on the show nearly two years ago in episode 125 when he was sharing about his book which is aptly named Behavioral Insights.

The reason he is here today is to talk about a debate that has been going on across the behavioral science community for the bulk of this year: "Do nudges work?"

Michael wrote an article recently in Behavioral Scientist which laid out all the points in a very clear way and talked about the real question we should be asking (as well as the next steps for the field in the future). I knew he was the perfect guest to come on and speak about this. He does a great job summarizing everything here and I hope you get value from this conversation. It can be hard to look at ourselves, the fields we are in, or ourselves personally, and embrace opportunities for improvement. But, it is so necessary in order to grow, change and thrive. The field is built on solid science, and we have an opportunity to do even more going forward. Listen in to hear all of our thoughts on this hot topic.

Show Notes:

[00:42] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Michael Hallsworth, managing director for the Americas division of the Behavioral Insights Team. He was on the show nearly two years ago.
[02:37] It can be hard to look at ourselves, the fields we are in, or ourselves personally, and embrace opportunities for improvement. But, it is so necessary in order to grow, change and thrive.
[05:00] Michael shares about himself and his background in behavioral science.
[06:56] Nudges guide people to decide while maintaining their freedom of choice.
[08:26] Publication bias is a problem that affects many disciplines (not just behavioral science) in the scientific literature.
[11:19] Singular data points are not generalizable in other contexts. Context and testing are key.
[13:22] First we need to understand what is a realistic effect size for some of these interventions and can we get a better understanding of how context affects results.
[15:42] A missing piece of this debate around if nudges do or don't work is looking at some work that is not affected by publication bias.
[16:59] We do have evidence for the real-world effects of nudging that are not affected by publication bias. Those effects are smaller than the ones in the original study but they are still meaningful.
[19:06] Human behavior is complex. Results vary by context and group.
[21:21] There are factors going into a result that are meaningful which may mean that something doesn't work in a different situation.
[22:56] Instead of making overall claims we should be talking about some of these ideas a bit like scientists have talked about incentives.
[23:53] We don't need to oversimplify or oversell because the results are there but they vary in ways we don't understand (yet).
[25:34] Moving forward we can run multi-size studies so we can explore these differences more systematically.
[27:42] When you take your results together, you should be able to see which idea is more supported.
[29:49] They found that if you thought something was more context-dependent those studies were less likely to replicate success.
[31:35] It's not about what you know. It is about how you match it to context to produce a result.
[33:56] Behavioral Science "in the wild" is different from behavioral science in the lab.
[35:07] Within organizations it can be really hard to start tracing the threads between studies and looking into the connections.
[37:11] Michael shares about his upcoming manifesto.
[39:20] The overriding question he discusses in the manifesto is "How do we help behavioral science tackle some of those bigger questions?"
[40:14] "Do nudges work?" is the wrong debate. There are ways we can take behavioral science forward.
[42:02] Anything that has happened so far isn't bad or wrong. We are learning from what has happened and now we are moving forward.
[44:47] You may not be able to predict in advance all the potential outcomes, particularly if you are intervening in a complex environment with lots of things going on (i.e., the real world with human people).
[46:11] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[47:21] The summary of what you heard from Michael is that, yes, nudges do work. And, as I have always said on this show, nothing is perfectly generalizable.
[48:44] This idea of looking into the possibilities of more complex systems and being able to be even better at predicting what will happen when and why is fascinating, and something I look forward to being part of researching into the future.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
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217. Changing Health with the "EATS" Model and the Healthy Behavior Institute Aug 12, 2022

Show notes

Today I'm joined by Scott Schutte and Dr. Janine Stichter, co-founders of the Healthy Behavior Institute. Scott is a personal trainer, weight loss behavior coach, gym owner, and fitness educator who has successfully guided thousands of people on their fitness journey. Janine (whom he calls "Dr. J") has been in the field of behavior change for over 20 years as a researcher, author, educator, and practitioner.

Her career has focused on understanding the "why" behind behavior and identifying clear practices that are practical and result in sustained change. As part of her research, she has procured over 14M in federal grants, published over 100 peer-reviewed articles and three books. (As well as chairing 40+ doctoral dissertations and masters committees, providing over 150 international and national presentations, and over 80 workshops.)

Together, they co-founded the Healthy Behavior Institute, an educational platform for fitness professionals and gym owners that specialize in behavior modification. I was particularly interested in having on the show because they are changing an industry where everyone has just sort of accepted that people don't do what they "should," yet where everyone keeps doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results instead of trying something new. Thankfully, they have, and so I have asked them to enlighten us on the work they do and the advice they would give to others looking to do something similar – in any industry.

Show Notes:

[00:44] In today's conversation, I am joined by Scott Schutte and Dr. Janine Stichter (Dr. J), co-founders of the Healthy Behavior Institute.
[02:21] The Healthy Behavior Institute is an educational platform for fitness professionals and gym owners that specialize in behavior modification.
[05:14] Scott shares about himself, his background, and how his work is related to behavioral science.
[06:06] Dr. J shares about herself, her background, and how her work is related to behavioral science. She has a doctorate in behavioral analysis.
[08:22] The case for the need for behavioral science often comes from a health or wellness example because it is an area where everyone knows what they "should" do…but behavior rarely changes.
[09:50] Many times fitness trainers or the industry have misinformation because they are looking at things through their own lens.
[11:50] A lot of us can do something for a period of time that is extreme but we don't maintain it.
[12:15] Behavior does not persist unless it is being reinforced and serving a purpose.
[12:56] When they talk about the root causes they use the EATS Model - Escape, Attention, Tangible, and Sensory.
[14:21] If we can figure out and help people figure out what the root cause of the behavior is then we can find a replacement that matches that.
[16:09] Your eating behaviors and reasoning can flow throughout the day.
[19:01] Having a guide through these changes is the fast track and going to keep you on point.
[19:55] People go through different stages of life so they have different wants and desires. This is an ongoing process that we need to reevaluate and reconfigure along the way.
[23:16] We need to focus on the minimum we need to do to trend in the direction of our goals. Tracking or journaling can be a short term learning tool but it is not something everyone has to do long term.
[24:26] Your clients are coming with different personalities and different ways they are naturally wired – you need to meet them where they are at.
[25:45] Using tracking or journaling at certain points can be helpful when necessary to educate or just give a better picture.
[28:03] The EATS Model gives you a place to start to try to understand the behavior.
[30:37] We don't have to adjust everything every day. We could make adjustments a few days a week and still see an impact.
[32:56] Understanding the problem and the behavior shift you are trying to make is so important.
[34:32] Be cognizant of not trying to address the symptom but actually look at the why.
[35:55] Behavior is a manifestation of what is going on in our heads. It is just an outward expression and we often need to get past that symptom.
[38:39] In behavior analysis and research the EATS Model is called the four functions of behavior and it applies to all industries.
[39:48] Any one thing can be all of those things (escape, attention, tangible, and sensory) at any given time.
[41:46] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[43:26] Taking the time to explore and explain how every behavior could be a source of Escape, a way to get Attention, getting something Tangible, or being Sensory is a great way to better understand (and potentially shift) that behavior.
[45:08] Thank you to Andrew Gavigan for recommending this week's guest! If you have a recommendation for someone you think should be a guest on the show or a concept or topic you want to be sure I cover please reach out to me through email or social media.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

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