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    Business

    The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics

    Consumers are weird. They don’t do what they say they will do and don’t act how we think they “should.” Enter Melina Palmer, a sales conversion expert with a personal mission to make your business more effective and brain friendly. In this podcast, Melina will take the complex concepts of behavioral economics (the study and science of why people buy – or not) and provide simple, actionable tips you can apply right away in your business. Whether you’re a small business or thriving corporation, Melina’s tips can help your business increase sales and get more customers.

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    Latest Episodes:
    236. Gratitude or Happiness: Which Comes First? (Refreshed Episode) Nov 15, 2022
    Show notes

    Today's episode is all about the brainy benefits of gratitude. At the end of the year, I always like to do episodes about reciprocity, gratefulness, happiness, and planning…and this year is no different. One thing that is new this year, is that we have two episodes a week including our Tuesday refreshes so this episode from November 2019 on the brainy benefits of gratitude gets another day in the sun.

    I really enjoy this episode as it looks at the difference between happiness and gratitude and how they might not work the way we think they should (which you will of course learn all about in the episode today).

    Here's something to think about as we start the episode: Do you have to get what you want to be happy? Is synthesized (or manufactured) happiness the same as natural happiness? What is best for your overall psyche and those around you? Keep that in mind as you listen, and share your thoughts with me on social media!

    Show Notes:
    • [00:39] Today's episode is all about the brainy benefits of gratitude.
    • [01:55] Gratefulness and reciprocity have an important thing in common, a tie that can bond them together which is a feeling of happiness and joy. Doing things for others or giving things away can make you feel happier.
    • [04:09] Our brains systematically misjudge what will make us happy.
    • [05:36] Dan Gilbert tells about how people don't know what will make them happy. One of the most important things the human brain does is allow to synthesize the future, imagine what is to come, and predict how we should act for the best possible outcome.
    • [06:29] Natural happiness is a product of getting exactly what you want.
    • [06:41] Synthetic happiness is what we get when we don't get what we wanted. Synthetic happiness, not getting what you want but still being happy about where you are is just as enduring and every bit as real to the brain as if you got exactly what you wanted or thought you wanted.
    • [09:36] A fascinating example using Monet paintings to show how our preferences change. You can be grateful, appreciate things, and have them make you happier even if you don't remember going through the process before.
    • [10:09] We think we will be happier if we have more options or choices but there is such a thing as too much choice. Freedom to choose is the opposite of happiness.
    • [11:20] Those who were stuck and had no room for deliberation after the fact were much happier than those that had the option to ruminate. Those who were stuck had no reason to ruminate and counterfactualize and were considerably happier.
    • [13:00] Not getting what you want can make you just as happy or happier than if you had gotten what you set out for. Synthesized happiness is the same as natural happiness. Lots of choices and opportunities to ruminate are a recipe for unhappiness.
    • [14:23] Gratefulness goes first.
    • [15:07] The benefits of gratitude filtering can impact all areas of your life in a positive way. When you are filtering for gratitude you are resetting the way your subconscious is looking at the world around you.
    • [16:50] It is important to write gratitude by hand when you can. Writing things by hand has tons of benefits.
    • [17:41] One reason writing by hand does all these things is because it forces you to slow down and be thoughtful. Your brain pays more attention to things you write down.
    • [18:38] Gratitude can also improve relationships. Sharing the good makes it easier to share the bad allowing for growth and progress together.
    • [20:08] It is time to filter for gratitude and start writing what you are grateful for.
    • [20:12] Melina's closing thoughts

    Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

    I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

    Let's connect:

    • Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
    • The Brainy Business® on Facebook
    • The Brainy Business on Twitter
    • The Brainy Business on Instagram
    • The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
    • Melina on LinkedIn
    • The Brainy Business on Youtube
    • Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

    Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

    • Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

    Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

    • Stumbling on Happiness, by Dan Gilbert
    • The Paradox of Choice, by Barry Schwartz
    • The Happier Hour, by Cassie Holmers
    • Tiny Habits, by BJ Fogg
    • Good Habits, Bad Habits, by Wendy Wood

    Top Recommended Next Episode: Paradox of Choice: Why More is Less (episode 171)

    Already Heard That One? Try These:

    • Reciprocity (episode 23)
    • Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals (episode 123)
    • The Littery - Interview with CEO Michael Manniche (episode 75)
    • Counterfactual Thinking (episode 68)
    • Prefactual Thinking (episode 71)
    • Expect Error: The "E" in NUDGES (episode 39)
    • Priming (episode 18)
    • How to Set, Achieve & Exceed Brainy Goals (episode 70)
    • The Power of Habit (episode 22)
    • Framing (episode 16)
    • Confirmation Bias (episode 102)
    • Focusing Illusion (episode 89)

    Other Important Links:

    • Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
    • The Surprising Science of Happiness Dan Gilbert TED2004
    • What Does It Take To Be Grateful?
    • In Praise of Gratitude
    • 5 Reasons Writing by Hand Is Good for the Brain and for Well-Being
    • Three Ways That Handwriting With A Pen Positively Affects Your Brain
    • 9 Incredible Ways Writing By Hand Benefits Our Bodies And Brains
    • How Arianna Huffington, Tony Robbins and Oprah Winfrey Use Gratitude as a Strategy for Success

    235. Great Brands Care About People, with Dr. Tessa Misiaszek Nov 11, 2022
    Show notes

    In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Tessa Misiaszek, coauthor of Branding That Means Business. Tessa is an instructor with Harvard Professional Development Programs, as well as a Professor at Hult International Business School. She brings extensive experience developing human capital strategies to improve business communications. Previously she served as CEO of Empathetics, Inc. – a company that developed empathic communications training for healthcare professionals, and she is

    currently the Head of Research for Korn Ferry. She is also one of the hosts of The Happy At Work Podcast, which I was honored to be a guest on recently discussing my book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You.

    Today, Tessa is here discussing her new book, Branding that Means Business, which she co-authored with Matt Johnson, who was on the show two weeks ago talking about the customer side of branding. Today, Tessa and I look a little more on the employee side of things and how much that matters for brands. Listen in to learn more.

    Show Notes:
    • [00:43] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Tessa Misiaszek, coauthor of Branding That Means Business.
    • [02:41] Tessa shares about herself and the work she does.
    • [04:06] Tessa met Matt in England and they had an argument about empathy.
    • [06:06] Her debate with Matt was if empathy had a scaling issue and if empathy can deplete you as a person.
    • [08:13] Tips for working with a co-author? If you go into business or create a start-up with a partner it is like a marriage. If it goes bad, it can go really bad. You want to make sure you have the right partner at the onset.
    • [11:04] Today we are going to talk about the internal functioning of marketing, branding, and culture.
    • [11:45] The function of marketing is value creation.
    • [13:45] A brand is not marketing. A brand is an asset to your marketing strategy.
    • [16:17] Authenticity needs to tie through everything and the outward messaging to customers matters.
    • [18:41] At the end of the day it is the transparency that builds trust and once consumers have trust that you are doing what you say you are they are more likely to be loyal and forgiving if something happens.
    • [22:05] The more empathy you can have for the way that your consumers live their lives and think about how your product and service are integrated into the way they live their lives that will allow you to build a more authentic brand connected to them.
    • [23:42] Brand is really the great differentiator today.
    • [26:42] Empathizing with the customers is crucial.
    • [29:00] As a brand you can't be all things to all people so don't try to be.
    • [29:49] Companies are only as good as the people that run them. Being able to really connect that purpose to the employee organization and culture that you develop within the company is very important.
    • [31:50] Mission and values are just the beginning. Next, you have to think about the infrastructure and operations.
    • [33:54] Zappos worked on creating and building a culture that really engaged the employees and then delivered on that and drive everything about the company.
    • [35:28] Melina shares Zappos' ten core values. Tessa recommends that start-ups start with five unique authentic values.
    • [37:14] If we all say we have the best service then nobody has the best service unless you are really living that. It is not enough to just say it, you have to show it.
    • [40:09] Values are not just words on a board. You have to think about how these values will evolve over time. To stay true to that as a company you have to continue to innovate based on those values.
    • [42:50] There should be an inventory once a year of company values.
    • [44:35] Tessa's podcast Happy At Work talks about organizational culture, employee engagement, and how to create a positive workplace environment.
    • [45:09] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
    • [46:03] Your brand promise may not be the same as your core values...and even if you don't have something written out anywhere (yet) or aren't really living those days in and day out (yet) consider this an opportunity to look at those and see how you can be doing better.

    Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

    I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

    Let's connect:

    • Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
    • The Brainy Business® on Facebook
    • The Brainy Business on Twitter
    • The Brainy Business on Instagram
    • The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
    • Melina on LinkedIn
    • The Brainy Business on Youtube
    • Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

    Learn and support The Brainy Business:

    • Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

    Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

    • Branding That Means Business, by Matt Johnson and Tessa Misiaszek
    • Blindsight, by Matt Johnson and Prince Ghuman
    • What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
    • The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey
    • Delivering Happiness, by Tony Hsieh

    Connect with Tessa:

    • Tessa on LinkedIn
    • Tessa on Twitter
    • The Happy At Work Podcast

    Top Recommended Next Episode: Branding That Means Business with Matt Johnson (episode 231)

    Already Heard That One? Try These:

    • Neuroscience and Psychology in the Business World, An Interview with Matt Johnson (episode 160)
    • Why We Like the Things We Like, with Prince Ghuman, coauthor of Blindsight (episode 172)
    • Introducing Kwame Christian and How to Use the Compassionate Curiosity Framework for Difficult Conversations (episode 107)
    • What is Value? (episode 234)
    • How to create a brainy brand (episode 230)
    • That Time I Went Viral… with Dr. Daniel Crosby (episode 212)
    • Reciprocity (episode 23)
    • The Speed and Economics of Trust, an Interview with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148)
    • IKEA Effect (episode 112)
    • The Power of Us with Dr. Dominic Packer (episode 178)
    • Bikeshedding (episode 99)
    • Time Discounting (episode 51)

    Other Important Links:

    • Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
    • Korn Ferry
    • Empathy Company
    • Zappos 10 Core Values
    • Embracing Change: Melina's Episode on The Happy At Work Podcast
    • Automatic Effects of Brand Exposure on Motivated Behavior: How Apple Makes You "Think Different"

    234. What is Value? (Refreshed Episode) Nov 08, 2022
    Show notes

    Today's episode is all about value — what it is, what it isn't, and why it matters for businesses. Value is something you hear about a lot, but it isn't necessarily something that we intuitively get or what drives our motivation to buy things. In today's episode, (which originally aired as number 8 of the podcast way back in August 2018), I get into the difference between value, price, worth, and cost and how they all matter in business.

    I chose this episode for you today for a couple of reasons. First, Leigh Caldwell, the guest on last Friday's episode, wrote a book called The Psychology of Price, which of course, brings value to the table. Whenever we talk about price, value is a key aspect. Also, in the episode this coming Friday, featuring Tessa Misiaszek, coauthor of Branding That Means Business, she will talk a lot about value vs. values, and what they mean in an organization and for its employees. That got me thinking about this episode. It is one I really love but don't end up talking about all that much, so it felt like it would be fun to bring it back to the forefront for a little moment in the sun.

    As you listen today, think about the value you create in your work. Of course, there is the obvious in your products and services, but also think about the less obvious side of value for your employees and teams working within your business. And tune in to learn some crazy stories of what people are willing to pay for things – from kidney stones to grilled cheese sandwiches…

    Show Notes:
    • [00:38] Today's episode is all about value — what it is, what it isn't, and why it matters for businesses.
    • [02:41] What are your values as a company, and how is that different from the value you create? How can your values be informing value? And how does that tie into worth — both of the organization and the self-worth of everyone that is involved with the company?
    • [03:51] People tend to use the words value, price, and worth interchangeably, but they are not the same thing. They work together but they are actually quite different.
    • [05:08] Price is what someone is willing to pay for a good or service.
    • [06:12] Worth is the expected selling price of something. Things have worth even if they don't have a selling price.
    • [08:59] Value is the usefulness or desirability of a good or service, how much you love it, or what it is worth to you. Value is not a number, it is based on how much you love it. Value is subjective and personal.
    • [11:11] Often items we value can be replaced, but we don't usually value them the same even though it is worth the same.
    • [12:35] Getting people to be realistic about their worth, price, and value is very important when you are trying to convince them to sell an item, especially one as sentimental as a home.
    • [14:28] Herding, value, perceived ownership, and loss aversion work together in things like bidding wars. When you add scarcity into the mix…watch out!
    • [16:00] Your brain might say, "If others are willing to pay for it now, it will likely rise in value over time and there might never be another one…I better jump on this and buy before it goes really crazy!"
    • [18:41] The herd will catch on and people assume the value that was paid is a new value.
    • [21:28] Brands are what give companies value. Brands give you loyal followers which creates herds.
    • [22:21] Brands are a big reason why it is not about the price or the item itself. Brands bring value to companies.
    • [24:33] Our brains get what they expect. If they are set up to believe something is amazing, they will often interpret the thing as amazing.
    • [27:15] It is important to establish value and make people feel like your product or service is worth paying for.
    • [28:08] Exclusivity is the celebrity factor and it has a large impact on value and price.
    • [29:53] How much did the owner's explanation and framing of the making of the sandwich and the high-quality ingredients have to do with the perceived value? He was confident in his explanation and said the price without hesitation which is also key to establishing value and justifying the price.
    • [32:54] Stories are memorable. Stories make brands.
    • [36:21] Our brains are trained to believe what they learned first until proven otherwise. Our brains believe what they are told and hold those things as facts – especially when it sounds really convincing or appealing.
    • [38:46] No matter what you are selling, brand value matters. In business, establishing brand value is the key to loyal customers who are willing to pay premium prices. People get more value when they pay more.
    • [40:12] Price and perceived value are linked in the human brain. A higher price means it must be better and have more value.
    • [41:56] Value is subjective. Value is in our heads. Value changes. Value can be created and built up. To get the herd to accept the value, you only need a few passionate people who are willing to pay what you (or they!) think the item is worth.
    • [42:45] Melina's closing thoughts

    Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

    I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

    Let's connect:

    • Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
    • The Brainy Business® on Facebook
    • The Brainy Business on Twitter
    • The Brainy Business on Instagram
    • The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
    • Melina on LinkedIn
    • The Brainy Business on Youtube
    • Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

    Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

    • Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

    Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

    • The Psychology of Price, by Leigh Caldwell
    • Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely
    • Branding That Means Business, by Matt Johnson and Tessa Misiaszek
    • The Behavioral Investor, by Daniel Crosby
    • What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer

    Top Recommended Next Episode: Endowment Effect (episode 139)

    Already Heard That One? Try These:

    • Herding (episode 19)
    • Loss Aversion (episode 9)
    • The Truth About Pricing (episode 5)
    • Branding That Means Business with Matt Johnson (episode 231)
    • Wait…There's a System 3? featuring Leigh Caldwell (episode 233)
    • Familiarity Bias (episode 149)
    • Status Quo Bias (episode 142)
    • Change Management: It's Still Not About the Cookie (episode 226)
    • How to Create a Brainy Brand (episode 230)
    • Scarcity (episode 14)
    • The Power of Story, with Michelle Auerbach
    • Our Bias for Novelty and Story
    • Anchoring & Adjustment
    • Relativity
    • That Time I Went Viral… with Dr. Daniel Crosby (episode 212)
    • Framing (episode 16)

    Other Important Links:

    • Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
    • Cost vs Price vs Worth vs Value
    • This Simple Framework Can Help You Sell More of Anything
    • Anomalies The Endowment Effect, Loss Aversion, and Status Quo Bias
    • Human Herding: How People are Like Guppies
    • Brother, Can You Spare An Organ?
    • Basquiat painting smashes record with $110m sale
    • People Try World's Most Expensive Grilled Cheese
    • How Your Brain Keeps You Believing Crap That Isn't True

    233. Wait…There's a System 3? featuring Leigh Caldwell Nov 04, 2022
    Show notes

    In today's conversation, I am joined by Leigh Caldwell, the founding partner of Irrational Agency. He is a behavioral economist and pricing expert with more than 10 years of experience in applying behavioral science commercially. He is the creator of the System 3 Methodology (which we will talk about a lot in today's episode) as well as being the author of The Psychology of Price, and a frequent speaker at academic and industry conferences.

    That is actually how Leigh and I met in person -- while we were both speaking at IIEX Europe in Amsterdam this past summer. We had been connected on LinkedIn prior to that, and it was so great to chat in person a bit, and then follow up after for a virtual coffee, which of course led to this episode. My conversations with Leigh really got me thinking about what I believe, what I'm familiar with, and what it might mean to open up and consider how...things might not be exactly as they seem.

    So, what I encourage you to do as you listen to today's episode, especially if you have been familiar with behavioral economics and behavioral science for a long time, is to be open to this idea. Be open to something that goes against what you believe to be true and wonder, "What might that look like?" I think if you allow it to be, this is one of those ideas and episodes that will really stick with you for a long time -- and I love that!

    Show Notes:
    • [00:39] In today's conversation, I am joined by Leigh Caldwell, the founding partner of Irrational Agency.
    • [03:02] Leigh shares his background and more about who he is. He describes himself as a mathematician above anything else.
    • [04:29] He realized there was something in the world about how people were buying and it wasn't logical or rational.
    • [06:20] There were two directions he went after learning about behavioral science. One was pricing because he felt there was a gap in the market with helping businesses set their pricing.
    • [08:15] Second was that world of what is going on inside the head and what our imagination is made of. This really fascinated him.
    • [09:27] When it comes to pricing, first understand the value that you are providing as perceived by the customers. Then look at the alternative routes to solve the same problem and how much those cost.
    • [11:43] What is it worth to the customer to solve this problem and how can you capture as much as possible of that value?
    • [14:49] You are not your ideal client or customer, so how much you would pay for the thing is not how much the person who needs your services would pay. You often undervalue it.
    • [16:26] One thing that attracted Leigh to economics was the idea of being able to use math to model human behavior.
    • [19:12] When you are using a linear path to predict something complex, you are going to end up in a difficult spot.
    • [21:44] We have to be building, growing, and changing as the field of behavioral science is moving forward.
    • [24:19] System 1 thinking is fast, automatic, and unconscious - things that really are a gut reaction. System 2, the deliberate mind, is meant to be logical and calculating.
    • [25:05] There is another kind of thinking that is not captured by either one, and that is the thinking we typically do when we are daydreaming or watching a movie. It is the activity of imagination.
    • [27:12] Leigh calls this other type of thinking System 3.
    • [29:25] Melina reads the story from a paper he wrote to help us better understand System 3. In the story, what we are experiencing doesn't have the logic of System 2 and it is not a learned reaction in System 1.
    • [31:34] We as humans can generate imaginary emotions and imaginary sensory feelings.
    • [34:20] If you want to understand people's real experiences, you have to allow them to bring in all of the accidental influences that occur in real life and the different places that their minds can wander to.
    • [36:02] There can be real value in how the imaginative process can be useful to brands.
    • [38:11] Choices are important, but narratives are just as important.
    • [40:48] By uncovering the existing connections in people's heads we can show brands how to tap into those stories and play their own part in that customer's narrative.
    • [43:07] By uncovering how people really perceived their client's product they were able to help them tell the right story in their marketing that was consistent with the story that the people already had and wanted.
    • [44:45] You have to understand who you are talking to and what it is you want them to do.
    • [47:41] People need to find ways and the right stories to help them through this challenging period, but brands also need to be able to find how they can play a part in customers' stories even in these challenging times.
    • [48:35] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
    • [49:30] I don't know if there is a System 3 for sure, and what the field might adapt to in the coming years, but it is so cool to realize that we are on the forefront of something amazing.

    Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

    I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

    Let's connect:

    • Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
    • The Brainy Business® on Facebook
    • The Brainy Business on Twitter
    • The Brainy Business on Instagram
    • The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
    • Melina on LinkedIn
    • The Brainy Business on Youtube
    • Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

    Learn and support The Brainy Business:

    • Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

    Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

    • The Psychology of Price, by Leigh Caldwell
    • Branding That Means Business, by Matt Johnson and Tessa Misiaszek
    • Blindsight, by Matt Johnson and Prince Ghuman
    • Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein
    • Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely

    Connect with Leigh:

    • Leigh's Website
    • Leigh on Twitter
    • Leigh on LinkedIn

    Top Recommended Next Episode: Leveraging the Power of Prefactual Thinking (episode 232)

    Already Heard That One? Try These:

    • Status Quo Bias (episode 142)
    • Questionstorming at KIND/Mars with Beatrix Daros (episode 215)
    • Nudging for Good at Walmart with Sarah Wilson (episode 206)
    • Behavioral Bartending with Maker's Mark, featuring Greta Harper (episode 207)
    • Anthropology, Market Research & Behavioral Economics with Priscilla McKinney (episode 196)
    • Anchoring & Adjustment (episode 11)
    • Relativity (episode 12)
    • The Truth About Pricing (episode 5)
    • Neuroscience and Psychology in the Business World, An Interview with Matt Johnson (episode 160)
    • Employee Engagement and Branding, with Tessa Misiaszek (episode 235)
    • What is Value? (episode 8)
    • Time Discounting (episode 51)
    • Do Nudges Work? with Michael Hallsworth (episode 218)
    • Counterfactual Thinking (episode 68)
    • Disney (episode 144)
    • The Power of Story, an Interview with Dr. Michelle Auerbach (episode 145)
    • The Power of Metaphors for Brands with Olson Zaltman's Malcolm and Hannibal Brooks (episode 181)
    • Defaults: The "D" in NUDGES (episode 38)
    • Priming (episode 18)
    • Confirmation Bias (episode 102)
    • Familiarity Bias (episode 149)

    Other Important Links:

    Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter


    232. Leveraging the Power of Prefactual Thinking (Refreshed Episode) Nov 01, 2022
    Show notes

    Today's episode is all about prefactual thinking. Prefactual thinking is closely related to counterfactual thinking, which was episode 68 of the podcast, and this episode originally aired as number 71. In its simplest form, counterfactual thinking is our "what ifs" and "if onlys" where we look back and wonder what might have been if only something had been different. This can be from outside factors or things within ourselves that might have changed an outcome, and our brains are really good at coming up with idealized scenarios where things would have been amazing and perfect "if only" this one thing had been different.

    Prefactual thinking is when we do something very similar but are looking into the future. Why did I hand pick this episode for you to listen to and reflect upon today?

    This coming Friday, my guest in episode 233 is Leigh Caldwell. He will talk about why he believes there is actually a System 3. You've heard me talk about System 1 and 2 (or rather, the subconscious and conscious processing of the brain...our elephant and rider) and Leigh says there is something else in there that should be its own category altogether. It has to do with imagining and thinking into the future, so it felt like a good idea for you to have a nice refresher on prefactual thinking today so you are all set and ready to be thinking about this possible System 3 question on Friday. So, as you listen today, think about the possibilities and what might come, and be ready to reflect on this when you tune in for episode 233. (And, if you haven't already, now is a great time to subscribe to the podcast to be sure you don't miss it!)

    Show Notes:
    • [00:38] Today's episode is all about prefactual thinking. Prefactual thinking is closely related to counterfactual thinking.
    • [01:25] While counterfactual thinking is looking back at how things in the past might have been different "if only"...prefactual does something similar, but looking into the future.
    • [03:39] Goals are so important. As the year is ending you are looking back at what you did, and what you could have done, and also looking forward to what you can do in the future.
    • [04:33] Counterfactuals are looking back at something that has already happened and essentially undoing it in some way in your mind. Prefactuals are when you look to the future and think about what could be.
    • [05:54] When you think about what could happen or how you might succeed in the future, studies show you can actually have great benefits in all sorts of tasks.
    • [07:06] Your brain is driven by its desire to get these chemicals and there are different rewards with each.
    • [08:15] The treat for the brain is in the build-up, the prefactual, so it wants to think through scenarios over and over and it isn't always wired to do this in a positive way unless you put in some interventions.
    • [09:26] Melina shares a real-world email example.
    • [12:05] There are countless examples because our brains dwell on stuff all the time – they are wired for it. And they don't happen in isolation; it is easy to jump from counterfactual to prefactual and back again.
    • [13:18] To use prefactuals for positive behavior change you want to look at the "if / then" and future outcome action ties.
    • [14:04] The specifics give your brain something to process and remember in the future.
    • [16:12] After she received an email letting her know about the error, Melina was able to take some time to think about what could happen (prefactual) and because she didn't dwell too much on what might have been (counterfactual) she could take steps to make it better.
    • [17:38] One key to using counterfactuals and prefactuals for your benefit is to look for the learning opportunity.
    • [20:56] Knowing the true impact is really important before you send anything out. Your brain is going to blow anything out of proportion with the tools it has in its arsenal.
    • [22:25] Breathe, assess, question, action, and reflection.
    • [23:19] Studies have found that people perform better on a task after doing prefactual thinking even if they have no prior experience. This is why role playing and visualization techniques are so important.
    • [25:34] Moving out of the negative counterfactuals and prefactuals into the positive space is such a useful and versatile skill for everyone.
    • [26:35] There is always something to learn and always a way through to the other side. You will get there faster and easier if you structure your counterfactuals and prefactuals to the positive.
    • [26:49] Melina's closing thoughts

    Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

    I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

    Let's connect:

    • Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
    • The Brainy Business® on Facebook
    • The Brainy Business on Twitter
    • The Brainy Business on Instagram
    • The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
    • Melina on LinkedIn
    • The Brainy Business on Youtube
    • Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

    Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

    • Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

    Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

    • The Psychology of Price, by Leigh Caldwell
    • Get it Done, by Ayelet Fishbach
    • How to Change, by Katy Milkman
    • Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman
    • Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein

    Top Recommended Next Episode: Counterfactual Thinking (episode 68)

    Already Heard That One? Try These:

    • Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals (ep 123)
    • Expect Error: The "E" in NUDGES (ep 39)
    • The Overwhelmed Brain & Its Impact on Decision Making (ep 32)
    • Peak-End Rule (ep 97)
    • Priming (ep 18)
    • How to Set, Achieve & Exceed Brainy Goals (ep 70)
    • The Power of Habit (ep 22)
    • Availability Bias (ep 15)
    • Framing (ep 16)
    • How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (ep 63)
    • The Top 5 Wording Mistakes Businesses Make (ep 2)

    Other Important Links:

    • Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
    • How to Break the Negative Cycle of 'What If' Thinking
    • Correction: Improving Physical Task Performance with Counterfactual and Prefactual Thinking
    • When Thinking It Means Doing It: Prefactual Thought In Self-handicapping Behavior
    • Fixing Your Brain: A Guide to Balancing Neurotransmitters

    231. Branding That Means Business with Matt Johnson Oct 28, 2022
    Show notes

    Today I am very excited to have Dr. Matt Johnson back on the show to talk about Branding That Means Business, a new book he has co-authored with Dr. Tessa Misiaszek (who will be on the show in a few weeks talking about her background and the aspects she brings to this fascinating project). Matt was on the show in 2021 talking about his other book, Blindsight (which he co-authored with Prince Guhman, who was also on the show last year.) Matt is a professor, researcher, and writer, who received his Ph.D. in Cognitive Psychology/Neuroscience from Princeton University in 2013.

    His focus now is on bridging the gap between science and business; to accomplish this, he works across several fields including behavioral economics, consumer neuroscience, and experiential marketing. A contributor to major news outlets including Forbes, Entrepreneur, Business Insider, and VICE, and a writer for Psychology Today, he regularly provides expert opinion and thought leadership on a range of topics related to the human side of business. He advises both start-ups and large brands and has served as an expert-in-residence to Nike's Innovation Team in Portland, Oregon. Matt is so much fun and a wealth of fascinating information. We are going to talk about so many awesome things today so you don't want to miss it.

    Show Notes:
    • [00:42] Today I am very excited to have Dr. Matt Johnson back on the show to talk about Branding That Means Business, a new book he has co-authored with Dr. Tessa Misiaszek.
    • [02:48] Melina and Matt share the similarities in their lives.
    • [04:08] Matt shares his background and how he found himself in the world of neuro and behavioral science.
    • [05:53] His second book, Branding That Means Business is written for the business practitioner on how to build brands and how companies can create enduring brands with consumers and markets.
    • [08:49] One of his goals when writing a book is to write for as broad of an audience as possible within popular science, but also for very niche behavioral science readers.
    • [11:11] Every experience you have consuming content is potentially going to be featured in some sort of written word.
    • [12:22] Twitter can be an amazing resource. Incredible business minds and academics are sharing on Twitter.
    • [15:15] The rule of the brand is to create trust. Trust is an absolute game changer when it comes to consumer dynamics.
    • [17:55] When information or an advertising claim comes from a brand you trust it is much more System 1 oriented and it changes the decision-making process to be much easier and free-flowing.
    • [19:59] Building a brand is like building a house. The goal isn't to just build the house and structure, but ultimately to build a home that creates a positive emotional experience and a sense of warmth and belonging.
    • [22:39] Interactions within the brain and how you feel about it — those associations are so key.
    • [23:16] A brand is an element of the company. It is a tool of the company that adds unique value above and beyond the products themselves and it helps the company differentiate itself from industry competitors.
    • [26:36] We need to know what our brand associations are so we can change them or embrace them.
    • [27:46] How the brand is sculpted at the level of the brain and the consumer and how that is aggregated over the entire market can be very different.
    • [30:36] After research, KitKat completely changed its marketing in Japan and it had a huge impact.
    • [31:50] So often companies and people end up really making things so much harder for us than they have to be. If you let go and have the current take you then you can get somewhere more meaningful.
    • [34:28] Our job as the brand manager is not to be the guardians of the brand image but as the caretaker of it.
    • [36:20] Micro and nano influencers have smaller audiences, but because they are very engaged followers that can be very effective.
    • [38:14] Many people are willing to partner with brands that mean something to them.
    • [40:26] Among younger consumers there is a "learned allergy" to top-down advertising. This is one of the reasons why TikTok has been so huge with product advertising.
    • [43:22] Organic marketing and integrated content are becoming more and more attractive.
    • [46:14] If it is perceived to be a small brand the expectations are that it is going to be a brand that you really know, you could directly interact with it, and you could possibly co-create with the brand. This differs from big brands who should adopt this different strategy.
    • [47:59] Differentiation and consumer perception are important. It really matters to consider consumer perceptions in terms of those expectations.
    • [50:31] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
    • [52:20] Knowing what is going on in the world and finding how you can relate your brand to the current conversation is so key to using branding effectively in your business.

    Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

    I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

    Let's connect:

    • Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
    • The Brainy Business® on Facebook
    • The Brainy Business on Twitter
    • The Brainy Business on Instagram
    • The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
    • Melina on LinkedIn
    • The Brainy Business on Youtube
    • Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

    Learn and support The Brainy Business:

    • Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

    Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

    • Branding That Means Business, by Matt Johnson and Tessa Misiaszek
    • Blindsight, by Matt Johnson and Prince Ghuman
    • Semiotics in Retail, by Rachel Lawes
    • The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey
    • What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer

    Connect with Matt:

    • Matt's Website
    • Matt on Twitter
    • Matt on LinkedIn

    Top Recommended Next Episode: Neuroscience and Psychology in the Business World, An Interview with Matt Johnson (episode 160)

    Already Heard That One? Try These:

    • Why We Like the Things We Like, with Prince Ghuman, coauthor of Blindsight (episode 172)
    • The Power of Story, an Interview with Dr. Michelle Auerbach (episode 145)
    • The Speed and Economics of Trust, an Interview with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148)
    • Using Semiotics in Retail with Rachel Lawes (episode 191)
    • Priming (episode 18)
    • Novelty and Stories (episode 54)
    • Framing (episode 16)
    • How to create a brainy brand (episode 230)
    • Social Proof (episode 87)

    Other Important Links:

    • Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
    • The Atlantic
    • Annie's Newsletter

    230. How To Create a Brainy Brand (Refreshed Episode) Oct 25, 2022
    Show notes

    Today's episode is all about branding — and specifically, my insights for how to incorporate brain science and behavioral economics insights so you can have a brainy brand that resonates better with your potential customers, clients, members, etc., and is one of those coveted "favorite brands" in the mind of your consumer.

    When your brand is thinking about becoming a beloved "favorite" it is important to consider the experience people have with you. Becoming a favorite is a lot like dating and marriage. On a first date, you are looking for all sorts of data to help categorize someone as a hero or a zero — you want to be able to cut your losses before you invest too much. It's the same with brands. It is important to not make mistakes. You especially want to be on your best behavior early on in the customer relationship to build up that "favorite" status. The tips in this episode will help you leverage behavioral economics to do just that (including what your brand needs to learn from your favorite actors). Now is a great time to be thinking about your brand and goals for the next year. What changes can your brand make and where is it worth the investment in becoming a more brainy and beloved brand? Keep that in mind as you listen today.

    Show Notes:
    • [00:41] Today's episode is all about branding — and specifically, on my insights for how to incorporate brain science and behavioral economics insights so you can have a brainy brand that resonates better with your potential customers, clients, members, etc., and is one of those coveted "favorite brands" in the mind of your consumer.
    • [01:26] When your brand is thinking about becoming a beloved "favorite" it is important to think about the experience people have with you, and becoming a favorite is a lot like dating and marriage.
    • [04:14] A brand can take a generic item and turn it into something more.
    • [05:37] Marketing and branding are not the same things. Marketing is all the one-off things that you do to get your name out there.
    • [07:45] A brainy brand knows what it is trying to achieve and builds quantitative and qualitative research projects to test, learn, and grow.
    • [08:26] Truly great marketers (like great scientists) are great questioners.
    • [10:55] Our brain makes associations whether we ask it to or not.
    • [12:35] Priming is really related if you want to make sure you have a brainy brand. You want to make sure you are associating your brand properly with the right things.
    • [15:01] It is important to be strategic and thoughtful about what it is you are doing for your company.
    • [16:51] You need to use the associations of the brain to make it as easy as possible on the customer. Be strategic. Think about how you can make it easy, as well as where they might make an error so you can help them avoid missteps and make the right choice.
    • [18:31] Above all, a brainy brand knows that everything matters.
    • [19:47] Brands have personalities just like people and for good reasons. Known personalities create expectations in our brains.
    • [21:09] Smart brands know the work is never done.
    • [24:04] Method acting is a lot like business branding because they both require a lot of preparation and understanding of things that may never be brought up.
    • [25:16] Brainy brands know everything about who their brand is as if it were a person or a character.
    • [26:31] The other important thing to remember if you want a brainy brand is that perception is reality.
    • [27:28] Brainy brands need to have everyone on board rowing the boat in the right direction.
    • [28:35] Behavioral economics and other studies of the brain look into why people do the things they do and how to use insight to predict what they might do in the future.
    • [29:14] Melina's closing thoughts

    Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

    I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

    Let's connect:

    • Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
    • The Brainy Business® on Facebook
    • The Brainy Business on Twitter
    • The Brainy Business on Instagram
    • The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
    • Melina on LinkedIn
    • The Brainy Business on Youtube
    • Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

    Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

    • Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

    Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

    • Branding that Means Business, by Matt Johnson & Tessa Misiaszek
    • What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
    • Blindsight, by Matt Johnson & Prince Ghuman
    • Contagious, by Jonah Berger
    • How Brands Grow, by Byron Sharp

    Top Recommended Next Episode: Matt Johnson (episode 227)

    Already Heard That One? Try These:

    • Why We Like the Things We Like, with Prince Ghuman, coauthor of Blindsight (episode 172)
    • Peak-End Rule (episode 97)
    • Priming (episode 18)
    • How to Set, Achieve & Exceed Brainy Goals (episode 70)
    • The Power of Habit (episode 22)
    • Availability Bias (episode 15))
    • Framing (episode 16)
    • Surprise and Delight (episode 60)
    • Reciprocity (episode 23)
    • Disney: A Behavioral Economics Analysis (episode 144)
    • Apple Card: A Behavioral Economics Analysis (episode 42)
    • Starbucks: A Behavioral Economics Analysis (episode 73)
    • Questionstorming at KIND / Mars with Beatrix Daros (episode 215)
    • The Overwhelmed Brain and Its Impact on Decision Making (episode 32)
    • Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals (episode 123)
    • Expect Error: The "E" in NUDGES (episode 39)
    • How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (episode 63)

    Other Important Links:

    • Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
    • Unconventional Wisdom
    • How to Make Your Content Go Viral
    • Dogs on the Street, Pumas on Your Feet: How Cues in the Environment Influence Product Evaluation and Choice
    • 15 Actors Who Went to Seriously Extreme Measures for a Role
    • HR and Marketing: A Natural Partnership

    229. How Vulnerability Loops Make Team Communication More Effective Oct 21, 2022
    Show notes

    Many companies and managers have prided themselves on being strong, always showing confidence in the face of any crisis, and ensuring that people never show weakness or vulnerability. But is this the best approach? Does unwavering strength make a team stronger? Does exposing your weakness increase the likelihood that people will use that against you? What is the best path for a company and how should it encourage its teams to act?

    That answer is coming to you as we dig into the episode and learn all about vulnerability loops and why they are so critical for fostering strong teams.

    Show Notes:
    • [00:40] Today is a very exciting episode talking about something really critical for fostering strong teams – the vulnerability loop
    • [02:46] Before we get into the model and what a vulnerability loop is, I want you to take a moment and think about the people you are most closely linked to – those you have a really strong bond with. The people you trust wholeheartedly. Those who you know have got your back no matter what.
    • [05:05] A shared experience where the participants were vulnerable creates a trust bond that is hard to break, even after decades and otherwise drifting apart.
    • [06:57] There are five simple steps in the vulnerability loop, a concept that is attributed to Jeff Polzer, Harvard professor in the department of organizational behavior, but was really popularized by Daniel Coyle when he included it in his book, The Culture Code. Even though they may seem random, every vulnerability loop follows the same five steps.
    • [08:47] To make it a LOOP you can't just acknowledge their vulnerability, it isn't enough to say, "Oh? Why is that?" or something…you can do that too, but you need to reveal something vulnerable about yourself.
    • [09:51] And you don't have to share the exact same thing, but instead it needs to be something that makes you feel a little anxious or nervous to share, you need to feel vulnerable. I get that you want to be able to get trust and closeness without exposing yourself or having that discomfort, but it doesn't work that way.
    • [11:08] You want to hear their vulnerability and then you share a little something to let them know they are not out on the ledge alone and that you are not going to let them fall. You want to show them that you are there to support them to create that ongoing loop of trust.
    • [13:57] The listeners feel more connected to me because I am willing to share those moments of vulnerability. It is a little uncomfortable but a really important part to be connected to all of YOU!
    • [15:05] Well, while we don't have to share our deepest, darkest secrets with our teams or be weepy, fragile messes, being strong, silent, unwavering, and confident all the time isn't going to build real trust and bond a team. We need to be willing to get vulnerable.
    • [15:54] As Polzer said, "People tend to think of vulnerability in a touchy-feely way, but that's not what's happening." "It's about sending a really clear signal that you have weaknesses, that you could use help. And if that behavior becomes a model for others, then you can set the insecurities aside and get to work, start to trust each other, and help each other. If you never have that vulnerable moment, on the other hand, then people will try to cover up their weaknesses, and every little microtask becomes a place where insecurities manifest themselves."
    • [17:01] The first person has to go out on the limb, to make the vulnerable leap to start the conversation – to trust that the other person will reciprocate and catch them…and to keep the moment from stopping and falling flat. The second person is key to keeping the loop going, to opening up a little more to show that they can be vulnerable too – and while it doesn't have to be only vulnerability all the time, this is something that needs a little boost back in – a continual jolt of vulnerability – to keep the loop going.
    • [17:57] Our eyes scan the world around us constantly for potential threats and are perpetually bringing in and processing information – 3 times per second on average. So, if you have a blurred background on (or a really bad virtual one) it is, essentially, sharing continually that you don't trust people enough to let them see the real room you are in. I know that isn't your intention but that doesn't really matter as the brain is going to make its own association.
    • [20:29] One more piece of good news is that you don't need to be vulnerable all the time! This isn't a constant state of uncertainty and stress, but a few key moments that can be paying trust dividends over time are really important.
    • [21:22] When there is increased trust, things take less time and cost less money. When there is decreased trust. or a lack of trust, they take more time and cost more money. Trust until people give you a reason not to and learn from it (don't be a doormat) but also have a short memory, especially for little stuff.
    • [22:20] Trust is key to getting things done in business, and one of the best ways to build trust is with the vulnerability loop.
    • [23:30] In this climate of people feeling undervalued at work, like they aren't appreciated and they don't matter, this is such an affordable way to help them to know that they do matter. You don't have to invest in expensive programs or wellness packages but if you don't have the budget for them it doesn't mean you can't do anything. You can encourage a little bonding and vulnerability and it can go a long way.
    • [26:05] Coyle's questions are a good place to start as you think about question prompts for your team. But asking these types of questions were found to make people feel 24 percent closer to the strangers they went through the questions with than those who had the easier types of questions like in the first set.
    • [26:52] Melina shares some of the questions she really likes from the list of 36, especially for teams.
    • [29:59] You don't have to have the same exact item that you share with someone else, but the flip of that is that it is really important to not judge someone else's vulnerability.
    • [30:28] Being the second person in the loop is key to it being able to form. Make an attempt to be more attentive to the way someone is sharing their message with you.
    • [31:21] One other important thing to remember, is to trust first. Be ready and leap and know that the right people will catch you. Don't get discouraged if someone shuts you down – try again.

    Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

    I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

    Let's connect:

    • Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
    • The Brainy Business® on Facebook
    • The Brainy Business on Twitter
    • The Brainy Business on Instagram
    • The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
    • Melina on LinkedIn
    • The Brainy Business on Youtube
    • Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

    Learn and support The Brainy Business:

    • Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

    Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

    • Influence (new and expanded), by Robert Cialdini
    • The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey
    • You're Invited, by Jon Levy
    • What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
    • Daring Greatly, by Brene Brown

    Top Recommended Next Episode: Using Behavioral Science to Build Connections, with Jon Levy, author of You're Invited (episode 150)

    Already Heard That One? Try These:

    • Unity (episode 216)
    • Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157)
    • The Speed of Trust, with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148)
    • Change Management: It's Still Not About the Cookie (episode 226)
    • Reciprocity (episode 23)
    • Biases Toward Others – Including Groups (episode 46)
    • What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You (episode 225)
    • Game Theory (episode 62)
    • Herding (episode 19)
    • Social Proof (episode 87)
    • Time Pressure (episode 74)

    Other Important Links:

    • Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
    • How showing vulnerability helps build a stronger team
    • Activating Teams to Fight Burnout and Create Joy in Work

    228. Game Theory: Behavioral Economics Foundations (Refreshed Episode) Oct 18, 2022
    Show notes

    Today's episode is all about the fascinating world of game theory. This episode originally aired on August 23, 2019, and was episode 62 of the podcast. There are a couple of reasons I've selected this to be our refreshed episode this week. For one, with last Friday's episode featuring Annie Duke talking about her new book Quit…you can't think about Annie without thinking about poker, and game theory is so related to that.

    One of my favorite insights from game theory, which you'll hear me talk about more during the episode, is the difference between playing to win and playing not to lose. As you will hear today, these two things may seem similar, but they are actually very different. And as you reflect upon the episode today (whether it is your first time or something you're revisiting) consider your own life and work and let's build upon the lessons from Friday's episode with Annie about quitting, and how winners need to quit in order to win. Tip: understanding the rules and what it will take to win (so your emotions don't get the better of you) will help you to win any game you are playing.

    Show Notes:
    • [00:37] Today's episode is all about the fascinating world of game theory.
    • [01:46] You need to know when to be gritty and when to quit.
    • [03:31] Humans aren't rational. Humans don't always make choices that are fully rational. We try to game the system or play the odds and choose routes that are not in our best interest – especially when we think someone may be treating us unfairly.
    • [05:19] In behavioral game theory we need to consider how revenge, fairness, and personal gain all play to the outcomes. The 3 main games in game theory are the ultimatum game, the prisoner's dilemma, and the dictator game.
    • [06:37] In purely rational economic terms it is best to keep the full $10 for yourself. There is no consequence for keeping it and no one will know. In reality, people would give away an average of $3.
    • [08:19] You are playing the odds of being seen, feeling guilty, or whether or not that person will resent you. Whether or not you see each other or will see them again play a big part in your behavior.
    • [10:18] History has a lot to play in the actions people take. Existing relationships help determine actions.
    • [12:39] It is important to understand who has what power in each situation when you determine what to offer and think about how they might react.
    • [14:0312] You can make an extra gesture (surprise & delight) to make a big impact. That first interaction lays a foundation for what people expect and how they feel about you in all your future interactions.
    • [15:58 It is important to understand all the options and variables before taking an action or making an offer.
    • [17:02] In the prisoner's dilemma, as a group they are better to both not say anything and take the one-year's sentence. If they look at their individual personal gain or personal loss they are of course better off with no prison time motivating them to say something.
    • [19:50] As it turns out, a tit-for-tat strategy consistently did best overall. In this way, you cooperate until someone deflects.
    • [20:31] A quick response and a short memory was the best strategy.
    • [21:19] In most real-life scenarios most of us are likely to choose to play fair until given a reason not to.
    • [22:40] As much as we wish it would be, dealing with people is never black and white. There is so much gray impacting every situation and decision.
    • [23:54] Always have written contracts and agreements. Document to ensure clarity.
    • [26:23] Game theory is truly around us all of the time. Pretty much any time you interact with another person, business, or entity game theory comes into play. We play the odds whether we realize it or not.
    • [29:23] Companies used to be able to take advantage of customers much more if they wanted to. There wasn't an easy mechanism for them to be punished. Often the punishment hurts much more than if you did the right thing in the first place.
    • [29:52] Melina shares a story about United playing the odds and losing big time.
    • [32:17] When emotions take hold it can cause people to make bad decisions that they may regret in the long run so try and get some distance and perspective before acting especially if you feel really betrayed and angry.
    • [33:19] When it comes to games many people are playing not to lose instead of playing to win. Winning is a long game.
    • [36:02] Winners quit a lot of stuff because they know what winning looks like. They know the rules, they know the game, and they can see what is helping them reach their goals and what is a hindrance.

    Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

    I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

    Let's connect:

    • Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
    • The Brainy Business® on Facebook
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    • The Brainy Business on Instagram
    • The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
    • Melina on LinkedIn
    • The Brainy Business on Youtube
    • Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

    Learn and support The Brainy Business:

    • Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

    Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

    • What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
    • Quit, by Annie Duke
    • Thinking in Bets, by Annie Duke
    • How to Decide, by Annie Duke
    • The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey

    Top Recommended Next Episode: Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away, with Annie Duke (episode 227)

    Already Heard That One? Try These:

    • Color Theory (episode 61)
    • Anchoring & Adjustment (episode 11)
    • Change Management: It's Still Not About the Cookie (episode 226)
    • The Truth About Pricing (episode 5)
    • What is Value? (episode 8)
    • Framing (episode 16)
    • Surprise and Delight (episode 60)
    • Reciprocity (episode 23)
    • Biases Toward Novelty and Stories (episode 54)
    • Biases Toward Others – Including Groups (episode 46)
    • What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You (episode 225)
    • The Speed of Trust, with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148)
    • You Have More Influence Than You Think, Vanessa Bohns (episode 197)

    Other Important Links:

    • Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
    • United Breaks Guitars
    • The Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma and The Evolution of Cooperation
    • Behavioral Game Theory
    • The Ultimatum Game - Are people rational?
    • The Dictator Game
    • The Psychology of Revenge (and Vengeful People)
    • An Experimental Analysis of Ultimatum Bargaining
    • Behavioral Game Theory: Plausible Formal Models That Predict Accurately
    • (Behavioral) Game theory

    227. Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away, with Annie Duke Oct 14, 2022
    Show notes

    In today's conversation, I am joined by Annie Duke, a former professional poker player (widely known as one of the best female players in the world) who also has an impressive and fascinating background in psychology, which she will talk about on the show today. I've been wanting to have Annie on for ages, she has two other fantastic books called Thinking in Bets and How to Decide, and I am so delighted that she wrote this additional book, Quit, which we are talking about today (and really, she talks about all three books in our conversation).

    I am so honored and delighted that Annie took the time to chat with me for this interview. We had a great conversation and ended up chatting for over 90 minutes (with about 80 of those recorded). Here on the show today, we are cutting that conversation down to fit in under an hour but if you want to hear the full conversation in detail, come on over to the BE Thoughtful Revolution membership group -- it's our free community of behavioral economics enthusiasts from around the world, and you can check out the full video interview and conversation. Annie is a wealth of knowledge and insights, so you will want to glean every extra moment just like I did, I'm sure – be sure to stick around for monkeys and pedestals!

    Show Notes:
    • [00:40] In today's conversation, I am joined by Annie Duke, a former professional poker player who also has an impressive and fascinating background in psychology.
    • [03:07] Annie shares her background and how she found herself in the world of behavioral science.
    • [04:41] Her brother was the one who suggested she play poker and she ended up playing poker for 18 years as her profession.
    • [06:05] After eight years as a poker player she started getting asked to give talks. The first talk she gave was to a group of options traders and she talked about how poker might inform your thinking about cognitive bias. From there she started getting referrals and spending more time speaking than playing poker.
    • [07:11] In 2012, she retired from poker to spend more time on the business side of things and started consulting and speaking full-time.
    • [09:13] If you look at anything on Annie's journey from the time she entered graduate school, it is all decision-making under uncertainty.
    • [11:09] The more ways that you are thinking about problems and the different frames that you have to ponder these issues you end up bringing something different to the table.
    • [12:54] Premortems can be very effective if you combine them with other good decision-making tools.
    • [15:14] If you use prospective hindsight instead of just forward planning, research shows you will generate 30% more reasons for failure or success if you didn't do prospective hindsight.
    • [17:14] Self-serving bias is that when bad things happen to us as individuals we tend to blame them on things that are outside of our control.
    • [19:49] Other researchers suggest that premortems need to be done in groups to be successful.
    • [22:42] Thinking in Bets was a book that she had really wanted to write for many years, which is about making decisions under uncertainty.
    • [25:27] One of the things she really talks about in Thinking in Bets is resulting. Resulting is when we look at other people and assume if they have a bad outcome then they made a bad decision and a good outcome is from luck (whereas when we have a bad outcome it is luck and a good outcome is from our good decision making – this is very similar to fundamental attribution error).
    • [26:55] She wrote How to Decide as a companion, which had more practical tools for making decisions.
    • [28:23] Annie shares about writing her new book Quit.
    • [30:44] Most of the decisions you make you can actually probably make faster. The way to decide if you can go faster is by looking at the consequences of getting the decision wrong.
    • [33:01] We are really bad at exercising the option to quit when the time comes. The option to quit is very valuable.
    • [35:02] She shares the many Zoom conversations with influential behavioral scientists she had prior to writing her new book about quitting.
    • [36:36] Science shows that when we quit, we are usually doing it too late.
    • [38:45] One of the problems we have is that once we set a goal we are immediately in the losses.
    • [39:20] Annie shares about the California Bullet Train.
    • [41:51] After getting the project approved once starting the project they realize they have two big problems… (Why didn't they "see" them before?)
    • [44:22] Instead of stopping the project, they approved two pieces of track that don't address the gigantic engineering problems.
    • [46:13] Monkeys and pedestals is an incredibly helpful framework for trying to figure out how you approach projects to find out the information you need to find out the fastest so you can figure out if it is something you want to stick to.
    • [47:26] She shares the monkeys and pedestal's story. You have to start with the monkey (the hard part) of the problem first.
    • [49:11] When you do but up against hard things you tend to turn to pedestal building rather than to quit (similar to bikeshedding).
    • [50:28] You should definitely tackle the monkeys first.
    • [51:51] You follow the premortem by looking at the monkeys and pedestals. You figure out what the monkeys are and then you change your plans according to that.
    • [53:20] Kill criteria are what you could see or find out in the future that would tell you that you ought to quit.
    • [55:01] There is no point in tackling any low-hanging fruit if you can't train the monkey. Figure out the hard problem first.
    • [57:34] Winners quit a lot. That is how they win. Winners sample a lot of stuff, settle on a course of action, tackle the monkeys first, and if the world gives them another signal they switch.
    • [58:41] Winners pick the right things to stick to and they abandon everything else.
    • [60:52] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
    • [61:08] Thoughtful quitting, stopping doing things that aren't serving you anymore isn't a failure -- that is a win. That is a sign of doing great big amazing things! If you never quit, you can never win because you will be spread too thin.

    Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

    I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

    Let's connect:

    • Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
    • The Brainy Business® on Facebook
    • The Brainy Business on Twitter
    • The Brainy Business on Instagram
    • The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
    • Melina on LinkedIn
    • The Brainy Business on Youtube
    • Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

    Learn and support The Brainy Business:

    • Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

    Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

    • Thinking in Bets, by Annie Duke
    • How to Decide, by Annie Duke
    • Quit, by Annie Duke
    • Superforecasting, by Dan Gardner and Philip E. Tetlock
    • How to Change, by Katy Milkman
    • Power of Regret, by Daniel Pink

    Connect with Annie:

    • Annie's Website
    • Annie on Twitter
    • Annie on LinkedIn

    Top Recommended Next Episode: Game Theory (episode 62)

    Already Heard That One? Try These:

    • Loss Aversion (episode 9)
    • Framing (episode 16)
    • The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126)
    • 3 Steps to Better Decision Making, An Interview with Matthew Confer (episode 158)
    • Counterfactual Thinking (episode 68)
    • How To Change, an interview Dr. Katy Milkman (episode 51)
    • Fundamental Attribution Error (episode 92)
    • Planning Fallacy (episode 114)
    • Precommitment (episode 120)
    • Hindsight Bias (episode 167)
    • Bikeshedding (episode 99)
    • Status Quo Bias (episode 142)
    • Endowment Effect (episode 139)
    • Survivorship Bias (episode 110)
    • Mental Accounting (episode 56)

    Other Important Links:

    • Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
    • A Slight Change of Plans Podcast with Maya Shankar
    • Annie's Newsletter

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