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266. Dunning-Kruger Effect: Are you on the Peak of Mt. Stupid? Feb 28, 2023

Show notes

Today's episode is all about the Dunning Kruger Effect, which was the second most downloaded episode of the year in 2022, so in case you missed it I wanted to be sure you had a chance to listen to it like so many of your peers did. :)

If you DID hear this episode last year when it came out, I highly recommend you still tune in now because I can guarantee it will hit you differently today than it did back then. You are a different person and you will glean different insights from the episode, I promise.

So, why this episode and why today? Well, in Friday's episode with Dr. Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic, we talk explicitly about the Dunning Kruger Effect and how it applies in life and business when he shares about his new, fascinating book I, Human and our discussion is specifically around one of his other books, Why So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders (And How To Fix It). That book has too good of a title to not be honored with a refresh on the Dunning Kruger Effect, which looks at the relationship between confidence and competence, as you will learn more about today.

Show Notes:

[00:39] Today's episode is all about the Dunning Kruger Effect, which was the second most downloaded episode of the year in 2022.
[02:22] To put the Dunning-Kruger effect into its simplest form, it would say essentially that people who are unskilled tend to overestimate their abilities and those who are very skilled experts will underestimate theirs.
[03:15] Think about a kid who graduates from high school and believes they know everything.
[03:35] When someone graduates from high school, they are at a point that has come to be known as the "Peak of Mount Stupid." At the peak of mount stupid, someone has lots of confidence, but it isn't built on much competence. They have no idea how much they don't know so they are blissfully unaware of their precarious position and how close they are to falling right off the cliff. When this kid gets to college and realizes they don't know nearly as much as they thought they did, they fall into the "Valley of Despair."
[05:51] This is an opportunity to look at the things you don't yet know and begin to research them. This gradual climb is called the "Slope of Enlightenment." You slowly gain confidence as you grow your competence…though you might never get back up to the level of confidence you had way back at the peak of mount stupid.
[06:48] If you take a moment now to reflect upon your own life, I am guessing you could pretty easily come up with at least half a dozen examples where the Dunning-Kruger effect reared its ugly overconfident head.
[08:17] While you are an expert in one thing, you are way overconfident in something else, where you don't have any idea of the ocean of stuff you don't know.
[09:23] How the effort heuristic relates.
[11:16] I can live in blissful unawareness of my inadequacies forever and never have it be an issue until I try the thing enough to realize that I should have been a little less confident.
[12:30] Have some awareness and don't assume you know better than everyone else.
[13:27] There is a flip to this as well. (It isn't all about mount stupid). Remember, there is a point where you become an expert and then grossly underestimate your own abilities.
[14:45] You can't do this for everything, but on the things that matter it is worth doing a little Dunning-Kruger evaluation every so often to discover if you are underestimating or overestimating your confidence and competence at this point.
[15:41] Look at your own moments where you have high confidence and low competence (or high competence with not enough confidence) to determine if you are showing up in the best way possible. Also, look at others to determine where they are on that Dunning-Kruger scale.
[17:08] Another place where the Dunning-Kruger effect is really critical to keep in mind is when you look at coaching or giving advice to members of your team.
[18:40] Giving them too many things to change while they are feeling the stress in the "valley" is going to make the problem worse, so you need to be selective on what advice to give them.
[19:55] Know that when people have low competence in something, they are likely to be overconfident in their own abilities. Those who are very competent have a tendency to underestimate their own skill or ability.
[20:3] There is an interesting point when there is an increase in knowledge where you realize all of what you don't know—that increased competence results in a drastic drop in confidence.
[21:17] As you build knowledge, know that you will gradually underestimate your abilities, skills, and all the effort and training that went into what you now know and can do. Just because it is easy for you doesn't mean it isn't of value to someone else. Especially when someone is new, overshare information to help with where you both are on the Dunning-Kruger scale.
[22:04] Don't take your spot on the Dunning-Kruger scale as a fixed point. The context is always changing, there are new discoveries and technologies and experts every day.
[23:16] I just love this concept in so many ways. It is a great opportunity to look at ourselves, and others so we can overcome obstacles we may be putting in our own way, avoid big crashes into that valley of despair, be better at coaching others, and have better relationships with colleagues of all kinds — and even understand our relationship with technology.
[24:12] Keep the Dunning Kruger Effect in mind as you look around at your own choices and the relationships you have with others over the next couple of weeks.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

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Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

I, Human, by Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic
Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (And How To Fix It), by Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic
What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
Getting Along, by Amy Gallo
You Are Not So Smart, by David McRaney

Top Recommended Next Episode: Confirmation Bias (episode 102)

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Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
Dunning-Kruger Original Research
Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon

265. Why You SHOULD Talk To Strangers with Dr. Nick Epley Feb 24, 2023

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Nick Epley, Director of the Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. I was introduced to Nick by the amazing Ayelet Fishbach, who has been on The Brainy Business twice before.

Nick studies social cognition—how thinking people think about other thinking people—to understand why smart people so routinely misunderstand each other. He teaches an ethics and well-being course to MBA students called Designing a Good Life (sounds like a perfect fit around here, and we do talk about this in the episode). His research has appeared in more than two dozen empirical journals, been featured by the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, CNN, Wired, NPR, and more.

As Nick will share with us today...you may not realize it, but you were born with an extraordinary ability to understand what others think, feel, believe, want, and know. You are a mind reader! It's a sixth sense you use every day, in every personal and professional relationship you have. Today, Nick will share a bit of what scientists have learned about our ability to understand others and the surprising mistakes we so routinely make.

Show Notes:

[00:45] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Nick Epley, director of The Center of Decision Research at the University of Chicago, Booth School of Business. Nick studies social cognition.
[02:52] You may not realize it, but you were born with an extraordinary ability to understand what others think, feel, believe, want, and know. You are a mind reader.
[05:02] Nick shares about himself and his background. He is a professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago.
[07:32] There are systematic gaps between our beliefs about someone else and reality. If we can understand what those gaps are we can understand why they exist.
[09:38] The quality of our social relationships is a critical determinant of our happiness, probably the most important. Other people are the single biggest source of our happiness as well as our misery.
[11:55] One of the big barriers to people being more social in their daily lives is that they underestimate how social others are.
[13:35] We get that risk-reward trade-off with other people wrong. We think it is riskier to reach out and engage than it is.
[15:05] Failing to realize that other people are social is a barrier to us.
[17:43] One of the common things we find is that people are often surprised at how much they learned, how enjoyable the conversation was, and how much they have in common with the other person.
[20:22] Conversations have a magnetic quality to them. It draws people together and surprises people.
[22:02] If you don't like small talk…stop having it. When you take an interest in other people they reveal interesting stuff and take an interest in you.
[24:18] Take an interest in another person - that is how you have good conversations.
[26:26] If you care about somebody then you ask them questions that matter to them. Treat other people like they are good friends.
[28:09] When people imagine having a meaningful conversation with a stranger, they think the other person is not going to want to hear about it or care about it. When they get into it and open up to each other it generally goes way better than people expect.
[29:56] Having a culture where people are open, honest, and willing to engage and connect with one another, they feel connected to the place because they are connected to each other is the kind of culture that every organization wants to have and helps get the job done.
[31:56] People's reluctance to reach out and engage with others is exactly the kind of barrier that organizations would want to get rid of.
[33:38] The things that basic psychology has to teach people in business is the same thing we have to teach people in their everyday lives.
[36:02] If you are bringing people into your organization, think about interviewing with your culture in mind.
[38:46] When you make connection activities routine, common, easy, and part of the habits so people aren't thinking about it, you design it with the context so it just happens this way that is how they spread through organizations and you sustain them.
[41:30] Often organizations don't choose to make these types of opportunities a priority.
[43:52] Typing and texting lack the emotion and the thinking behind those words that you get from a person's voice.
[45:32] Share kind thoughts with other people.
[46:35] Think about somebody you feel grateful to and write them a note. Try to connect with a stranger.
[49:17] Melina's closing thoughts
[50:36] Take the time for real human connections, even small ones each day and see what happens.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
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Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Mindwise, by Nick Epley
Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein
Get It Done, by Ayelet Fishbach
Both/And Thinking, by Wendy Smith & Marianne Lewis
Happier Hour, by Cassie Holmes

Connect with Nick:

Nick's Website

Top Recommended Next Episode: Vulnerability Loops (ep 229)

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264. Herding: Are You a Guppy? (Refreshed Episode) Feb 21, 2023

Show notes

Today's episode is all about herding. We humans are a herding species, just like cows and sheep and guppies, and this has a big impact on our behavior. We are tribal and we look to others to help us stay safe and make good decisions. Or, at least, what our subconscious tells us is a good decision. :) This is why things like testimonials are so important.

Herding has a dedicated chapter in my first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You because they are so important for businesses to understand.

The reason I chose to refresh this episode is because of the guest who is joining me this coming Friday, Nick Epley. We talk about the importance of social connection and why we often don't do the things that will help us to be happier because we perceive them as being uncomfortable or awkward or against the social norms in the moment.

In the business context, imagine how much value could come from having a simple chat with your colleagues or people at a conference. Most people probably stick to their groups where they are already comfortable and don't strike up a conversation, but what could happen if you did? There is a lot of value in breaking from the herd and having that conversation, even for less than a minute, which we will talk about more on Friday when episode 265 with Dr. Nick Epley comes out.

And as you listen today, I encourage you to reflect on all the times you thought about striking up a conversation or asking a question and didn't. What aspects of herding made you feel like you shouldn't and what can you do in the future to engage with others more? It is valuable for you both professionally and personally, I promise.

Show Notes:

[00:39] Today's episode is all about herding. We humans are a herding species, just like cows and sheep and guppies, and this has a big impact on our behavior.
[02:21] In the business context, imagine how much value could come from having a simple chat with your colleagues or people at a conference.
[04:07] Humans herd in the same way as other species for most of the same reasons. The main reason animals herd is for protection.
[05:41] Herding is in our nature.
[08:02] Herding helps us learn by observation. Watching where others go and following the group keeps you safe.
[09:38] As humans have evolved, herding behavior has not always served us well. Herding is there to protect individuals, not the group or a complex society as a whole.
[11:41] We choose restaurants by online reviews and crowdedness. We think the people must know something we don't.
[12:58] People are more likely to leave tips when others have done it.
[15:51] Herding mentality is much more likely to come out when people feel vulnerable or are unsure of themselves.
[17:23] It is better to be conventionally wrong than unconventionally right.
[18:58] Studies have shown that up to 75% of participants will give an answer they know is wrong to go with the group.
[21:07] When everyone follows the herd and doesn't take the time to do their own research stocks or companies get artificially inflated by the confidence of others.
[23:42] Crypto is absolutely impacted by the herd mentality.
[24:16] Always beware if your brain is making you feel anxious to take steps and do something just because everyone is doing it or having your FOMO triggered in a way that makes you want to do less research before investing your time, energy, or other resources.
[27:48] People like to be part of the group and this is increased when the other people in the group are comparable and more like you.
[28:14] Whatever your business does, you are in the business of solving problems. The only reason people buy anything is to solve a problem.
[30:52] Being in a group makes us feel safe and happy because of this release of oxytocin. When we are not part of the group, our brains do whatever they can to get that bliss feeling back by seeking out more group relationships to help us feel safe and warm.
[33:28] while we can't change our natural tendency to herd, you do have options to change your behavior.
[34:28] Understanding what will trigger herd mentality in your customers for both good and bad can help you to message better and more effectively.
[36:52] If you really care about starting a movement, have the courage to follow and show others how to follow. When you find a lone nut doing something great, have the guts to be the first one to stand up and join in.
[37:09] Melina's closing thoughts
[40:52] Be thoughtful with the numbers you put out into the world, and consider the herding implications for what you want people to do in the long run.
[41:59] Consider how social norms and herding instincts may keep you from having conversations with other people.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Influence, by Robert Cialdini
What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
How Customers Think, by Gerald Zaltman
The Power of Us, by Jay Van Bavel and Dominic Packer
You Have More Influence Than You Think, by Vanessa Bohns

Top Recommended Next Episode: Social Proof (ep 87)

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263. Purpose: Design a Community and Change Your Life with Gina Bianchini Feb 17, 2023

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Gina Bianchini, author of the book Purpose: Design a Community and Change Your Life.

She's also the CEO and Founder of Mighty, where creators, entrepreneurs, and brands build digital communities and courses with cultural software. Myself included -- the BE Thoughtful Revolution moved to Mighty Networks in 2021.

In 2019, Gina launched the Community Design™ Masterclass, where over 8,000 people have learned how to build a community so valuable you can charge for it, and so well-designed it essentially runs itself. Before Mighty, she was the CEO and co-founder of Ning, a pioneering global platform for creating social networks she started with Marc Andreessen in 2004.

She has been featured in Fast Company, Wired, Vanity Fair, Fortune, Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, and The New York Times. She has appeared on CNBC, CNN, and Charlie Rose. She is a wealth of knowledge and I know you will enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

Show Notes:

[00:43] In today's conversation, I am joined by Gina Bianchini, author of the book Purpose: Design a Community and Change Your Life.
[03:00] Gina shares about herself, her background, and how she found herself in this space.
[04:05] Mighty is a software platform for people to create new digital cultures around mastering something interesting and important together.
[06:15] Gina uses her time, talent, and focus to help people learn to live an extraordinary life.
[07:50] Social networks are where we are making connections and building real relationships between people. The network gets more valuable to us with each person that joins and contributes.
[08:55] Social media is about building an audience or a following. The goal is to build the biggest audience possible.
[10:56] This shift from social networks to a world where we are passive consumers of content as opposed to all the things that allow us to build new and interesting digital cultures.
[13:46] Across the board we are not happy and less happy the more time we spend in this system. The average American spends 3 ½ hours a day on social media platforms and report fewer friends and less happiness than 20 years ago.
[15:48] We are happiest where we can play, connect, and have flow.
[18:31] A network effect is a system where, when someone joins, that new person creates more value for everybody else in the network.
[19:47] The new member is able to get a lot more value from your community because of the contributions other members are making (and they add value for everyone else).
[21:40] It is so much better for us to play the role of host which is less work and more valuable for everyone involved and also feeds and scales the system.
[24:26] We are constantly shifting through our different identities and having the support and finding others like you is so fulfilling.
[27:17] We get better rewards and better returns with less risks. The same is true for how we spend our time.
[30:07] The highest order is how are you helping other people reach their fullest potential. We need to play the role of helping other people become the hero.
[31:40] The role of host is the most important and will continue to be the most valuable role any of us can play in our professional, personal, or social lives through this decade and decades to come.
[33:24] A tiny change in the question can change your direction drastically.
[35:41] People pay attention to what they pay for.
[37:57] We need to build our future story. Gina's Purpose 30 model is 30 minutes, 30 days, with 6 questions (she shares all 6 in the conversation). You have a blank canvas to create the future you want.
[40:12] It is very different to spend your time thinking about what is possible and what is positive than the negative thoughts.
[41:04] True meaning and true impact come from how you have helped others realize their fullest potential as well.
[43:00] It is about clearing your mind so that you can wander and explore.
[45:00] Melina's closing thoughts

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Purpose, by Gina Bianchini
A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger
The Power of Us, by Jay Van Bavel & Dominic Packer
You're Invited, by Jon Levy
The Fun Habit, by Mike Rucker

Connect with Gina:

Top Recommended Next Episode: Network Effect (ep 262)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter

262. Network Effect: What Twitter, AirBNB & the Telephone Have in Common (Refreshed Episode) Feb 14, 2023

Show notes

Today's episode is all about the network effect. This is something I don't talk about all that often as it isn't purely behavioral economics related, but I did the original episode because a listener requested it and it was really timely as at that time early on in the pandemic. This episode first aired in June of 2020 at a time where people were really looking to shift into a virtual presence. And not surprisingly, there is always a bit of a "field of dreams" mentality with these things, so I wanted to be sure to share a bit about the nuance of networks and how they create value, with tips for people to keep in mind to increase their chances of success.

So, you may be wondering, if this doesn't come up often...why the heck are you talking about it again now?

Well, I am delighted that on this coming Friday's episode, I had a chance to sit down with Gina Bianchini, Founder and CEO of Mighty, which includes Mighty Networks (the platform the BE Thoughtful Revolution has been on since May of 2021). She has a new book out called Purpose, which is all about creating communities and their importance for us as humans. Because of her Silicon Valley background and history of building great communities, we talked about the network effect in the conversation, making it a great opportunity to refresh this episode as you get ready to tune into that conversation on Tuesday.

As you listen today, I encourage you to think about communities. What have they meant to you personally in the past? Where do you connect with others? What do you love about your real communities — those in person you have had over your lifetime? Who do you feel closest to, and what is it you bond over? Is any of that present in your business now? What about your social media experiences? Just keep that in mind as you listen to this episode on the network effect today, as it will put you in a really great place for the conversation with Gina in episode 263 which is coming out in just a couple of days. (And if you aren't already subscribed to the podcast, now is a great time to do so!)

Show Notes:

[00:38] Today's episode is all about the network effect.
[01:30] I am delighted that on this coming Friday's episode, I had a chance to sit down with Gina Bianchini, Founder and CEO of Mighty, which includes Mighty Networks, the platform the BE Thoughtful Revolution has been on since 2021.
[03:18] Quick shoutout to Clayton Key for recommending the topic of this episode!
[04:46] The network effect is when the value of the business increases as the network grows.
[06:27] The network effect makes it so new people joining the network increase the value for everyone.
[08:49] The three most common types of network effects are: direct, two-sided, and local. A direct network effect is when an increase in usage and users leads to a direct increase in the product or service's value for other users.
[09:55] With the two-sided network effect, when someone from one user group joins the network the value increases for one or more of the other user groups.
[11:14] The key difference between a two-sided and a direct network effect is that the type of user joining matters.
[14:01] To leverage the full potential of the network, any social platform needs to maintain and monitor the quality of its users to ensure there are not bots and spam accounts.
[15:30] The last type of network effect is the local network effect.
[18:10] When you're talking about global effects in a network, it means it is impacting everyone across the entire platform.
[19:38] Network externalities influence a network effort and they can work hand and hand; they are not the same thing. A business that is not built on the network effort still should be considering those network externalities to increase sales. A network effect is not the same as going viral.
[20:57] There are serious hurdles to keep in mind in this kind of model.
[22:36] So when setting up this model remember you need to be able to stick it out for a while upfront while it may be costing you money knowing it will pay off once you hit critical mass.
[23:44] This platform model is looking for quality growth not just growth.
[25:04] Network effects are not quite a house of cards, but being dependent on users working harmoniously together does make a somewhat precarious beast that needs constant monitoring and attention.
[27:32] The five C's of network effect are connection, communication, collaboration, curation, and community.
[29:11] People like and value things more than they invested in building themselves (IKEA Effect!) so if your users help build the platform, provide feedback, and see it being implemented they will overlook small flaws that would otherwise irritate them because they helped to build it.
[30:43] You need to start with a small enough group to get the value for people early. Focus on operational excellence, great branding, and high value so most people who join the network stay for the long haul.
[31:41] Those network externalities of social proof and herding will be very valuable to attract new members to the network. Frame the messaging in a way to showcase the value.
[32:54] You can also have a powerful default option to make it easy for someone to choose to join the network. You want it to be as easy as possible, framed with the value, and set up so you can be part of their habits.
[35:37] Brand extensions are a delicate balance of finding something that is related enough to make some sense for tying it to the original brand but not so close it feels like it should have been the main offering, to begin with.
[37:03] Melina's closing thoughts

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Purpose, by Gina Bianchini
What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
Friction, by Roger Dooley
Sludge, by Cass Sunstein
The Experience Maker, by Dan Gingiss

Top Recommended Next Episode: Availability Bias (ep 15 )

Already Heard That One? Try These:

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261. Both/And Thinking with Dr. Wendy Smith Feb 10, 2023

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Wendy Smith, coauthor of Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems.

I don't think we realize it all that much, but our lives are full of paradoxes. Questions like: How can we each express our individuality and be a team player? How do we balance work and life? How can we take care of ourselves while supporting others? How can we manage the core business while innovating for the future?

Believe it or not, these are some of the everyday paradoxes that make up our lives. And because our brains tend to default to either/or choices, we choose one option over the other. We deal with uncertainty by asserting certainty. BUT this is not the best way, as you will learn about in today's conversation with Wendy Smith, a co-author of one of my new favorite books: Both/And Thinking.

Wendy is the Dana J. Johnson Professor of Management and earned her Ph.D. in organizational behavior at Harvard Business School, where she began her intensive research on strategic paradoxes—how leaders and senior teams effectively respond to contradictory, yet interdependent demands. She is a wealth of amazing information and I can't wait for you to learn from her today.

Show Notes:

[00:42] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Wendy Smith, coauthor of Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems.

[01:46] Wendy is the Dana J. Johnson Professor of Management and faculty director of the Women's Leadership Initiative at the Lerner College of Business and Economics, at the University of Delaware.

[03:57] Wendy shares about herself, her background, and the work she does. She is a professor of organizational behavior and business leadership management.

[06:27] We all experience these tug of wars in our lives.

[09:37] Our decisions really have multiple layers to them. They show up for us as a dilemma - these competing ideas in which you feel like you have to make a decision.

[11:37] Underlying our dilemmas are these paradoxical tensions.

[14:23] It is not that we are constantly trying to choose between always trying to be super disciplined or always trying to be spontaneous. If we go extreme on one side it becomes problematic in so many ways.

[15:36] The goal is to recognize that there is a relationship between discipline and spontaneity and that discipline enables us to be spontaneous as long as we don't go so extreme. Spontaneity enables us to have more structure in our world.

[17:08] These tensions drive us into either/or thinking. That kind of thinking is limited at best and detrimental at worst.

[19:39] Often when change happens you feel like you have to change significantly and essentially you are throwing out the baby with the bath water by innovating everything.

[21:44] Polarization is when you go down a path and you are sure that if you are right about the way you are thinking, someone else must be wrong.

[24:35] Businesses should continue to be operationally successful as they move up their S curve. Continue to service your existing customers and be efficient with your existing products and at the same time be scanning, exploring, experimenting, and innovating to figure out what the new S curve looks like.

[27:09] The problem isn't the problem. The way we are framing and thinking about the problem is the problem.

[28:10] You have to change to stay the same.

[30:56] Wendy shares a story about a group that built an inn to honor and value what was key to the culture of Newfoundland.

[34:04] To keep what you have, you have to change and we should embrace that.

[35:35] Her number one tip for writing a book is just to sit and do it.

[38:04] Wendy and her co-author worked together to structure the ideas of the book.

[40:38] There is something deeply paradoxical about behavioral economics (and Wendy loves that!)

[43:02] Just changing the question will invite you into a whole different way of thinking.

[44:02] Melina's closing thoughts

[45:55] Embracing paradoxes can have a huge impact. There is so much opportunity there.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com

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Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

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Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Both/And Thinking, by Wendy Smith & Marianne Lewis

The Paradox of Choice, by Barry Schwartz

Paradoxes of Group Life, by Kenwyn Smith & David Berg

A More Just Future, by Dolly Chugh

A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger

Connect with Wendy:

Wendy's Website

Wendy on Twitter

Wendy on LinkedIn

Top Recommended Next Episode: Framing (ep 16)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

A More Just Future, with Dr. Dolly Chugh (ep 247)

Paradox of Choice (ep 171)

Dunning-Kruger Effect (ep 198)

Past, Present, and Future Biase (ep 246)

Time Discounting (ep 51)

What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You (ep 225)

Change Management (ep 226)

Confirmation Bias (ep 260)

Focusing Illusion (ep 89)

Functional Fixedness (ep 194)

A More Beautiful Question with Warren Berger (ep 200)

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter

260. Confirmation Bias - I Knew It! (Refreshed Episode) Feb 07, 2023

Show notes

Today's episode is all about confirmation bias. My oh my, what an important topic when it comes to applying behavioral science to life and work. You have likely heard the term "confirmation bias" before, whether you heard this episode when it first aired back in May of 2020 or not, as this is one of those concepts that gets thrown around a bit. It is easy to understand on the surface, but the depth of its importance and impact isn't always realized.

Because our brains function largely on predictability and a love for the status quo, confirmation bias is part of our lives and work constantly. Did you know that whether or not you believe someone is difficult or easy to work with, can determine whether or not they are easy or difficult to work with? Kids' performance in school has been found to be tied to the way a teacher was told about them more than on their starting academic ability. Your view of your team or a project or a process can all be a filter that your confirmation bias either uses for good or to keep you stuck.

Now, in case you are wondering why I chose to refresh this episode today, it is because of the interview coming up on Friday with Wendy Smith about her book Both/And Thinking which will change your life. It is so good and fantastic. Because of that conversation, it felt like the best thing we could talk about today to set the stage is confirmation bias. As you listen today, think about what your biases are and where you have an "either/or" mindset. Our world is not one of binary choices. There are many opportunities in the both/and space that businesses can benefit from embracing and updating your filters to be set up for them is going to make such a difference. So, keep that in mind as you listen today.

Show Notes:

[00:39] Today's episode is all about confirmation bias.
[01:16] Confirmation bias is part of our lives and work constantly.
[03:25] In its most basic form confirmation bias comes down to our brain's desire to be correct and the subconscious filter deciding what gets through and stored and what gets ignored.
[03:59] The subconscious brain can do 11 million bits of information per second. The conscious brain can only do 40 bits.
[05:44] Stereotypes do go hand and hand with confirmation bias and many of these are taught to us intentionally or not when we are very young.
[07:28] The four main ways you will see confirmation bias are: 1) not seeking out objective facts, 2) interpreting information to support your existing belief, 3) only remembering details that upheld your belief, and 4) ignoring information that challenges your belief.
[10:33] Studies have shown that seeing facts from an opposing side that contradicts what you believed going in actually has the opposite effect of what they should and can make people double down on their previous beliefs. (This is known as the backfire effect.)
[11:18] You are going to seek out information that supports your beliefs and be more likely to believe, remember, and share those items that support your belief. You are also likely to attribute things to beliefs that aren't necessarily true.
[14:01] This reinforcing tendency is because of illusory correlation which is when we overestimate the relationship between two items to reinforce our biases even when little or no relationship exists.
[15:49] We humans are pretty bad listeners by nature because our brains are processing so much information at any given time.
[18:42] It is important to not start the conversation with a predetermined recommendation before they have had a chance to tell you about their situation. Most everyone should have at least two options.
[21:35] We can inadvertently talk people out of something they have chosen to get if we aren't careful.
[23:24] Confirmation bias doesn't have to be a bad thing and it can very much work to your advantage in life and business.
[24:07] Your conscious brain has limited capacity and you can't do everything so don't waste the effort on little unimportant beliefs.
[27:17] People who have been injured will often see themselves as victims, especially while they are dealing with all the legal stuff. Many people have a big improvement when their cases are settled because they are able to get out of that victim mindset. This is confirmation bias in action.
[28:24] You can change the belief that has been holding you back if you are willing to put in a little effort.
[29:46] Melina's closing thoughts
[30:40] You need to change YOU before trying to change them.
[33:19] Try and find a real human connection point that can help you to get away from just seeing them as "that difficult team member."

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

A More Just Future, by Dolly Chugh
Both/And Thinking, by Wendy Smith and Marianne Lewis
What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
Influence, by Robert Cialdini
You Have More Influence Than You Think, by Vanessa Bohns

Top Recommended Next Episode: Vulnerability Loops (ep 229)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
How to Effectively Combat Confirmation Bias with Melina Palmer
Texas A&M Certificate program
Check out the Master Your Mindset Mini-Course

259. Cognitive Semiotics and Metaphors with Sarah Thompson Feb 03, 2023

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Sarah Thompson, a behavioral designer at Live Neuron Labs, who has a master's in cognitive semiotics. Don't worry, we are going to have lots of conversation today about what cognitive semiotics is and why it matters.

The first thing I want to set the stage on is to get you thinking about metaphor. Now, this isn't the first time we are talking about metaphors (or semiotics) on the show, but today we are talking about how important metaphor really is when it comes to understanding the brain, thought, and decision-making.

Metaphor matters because research is starting to show that we don't just use them as colorful language, but we actually think in metaphors. It's how our cognitive system is structured.

Sarah will talk about a lot of great resources including a book called Metaphors We Live By, which was written by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson. If, like me, you are ready to go all in on cognitive semiotics and metaphor, this is a book to add to your library immediately. Cognitive semiotics is an emerging field, so we all need to stick together and know who else is researching and working in this space. Get ready to have your mind blown (metaphor) as you listen today!

Show Notes:

[00:43] In today's conversation, I am joined by Sarah Thompson, a behavioral designer at Live Neuron Labs, who has a master's in cognitive semiotics.
[02:08] Cognitive semiotics is an emerging field, so we all need to stick together and know who else is researching and working in this space.
[04:29] Sarah shares about herself, her background, and the work she does. She is a behavioral designer. Her job is to apply behavioral science through design to help people make better decisions.
[06:10] Cognitive semiotics is how the mind makes meaning.
[07:43] One of the biggest insights from cognitive semiotics is that metaphors are incredibly powerful at shaping how we talk, how we think, and how we make decisions.
[08:21] Metaphors are something we don't go out of our way to use. It is just something that naturally flows out of us.
[10:55] We have this myth that metaphors are just a part of language but metaphors are actually in all other types of communication including gestures.
[12:35] Melina talks about metaphor usage in songs, including what happens when something is unexpected.
[14:21] In a metaphor we talk about one concept as if it is another concept.
[16:50] A lot of studies show that the earlier you can get a metaphor in your conceptualization of an idea the more ability it has to influence how somebody thinks about it. It is not as effective if you add the metaphor at the end.
[18:01] You are using metaphors constantly even when you are not thinking about them.
[18:24] Sarah shares a study from Stanford University about two researchers who wanted to know if using a metaphor could affect how somebody thought about a complex social issue like crime.
[20:07] A single word changed how people thought about a very complex social issue. The metaphor was more powerful at determining people's response than their political affiliation.
[23:03] We have primary metaphors which are ones that are deeply rooted and embodied metaphors. We acquire them from interactions with the world at a very young age.
[25:36] The war metaphor was a mismatched metaphor for the pandemic.
[26:56] Metaphors are a part of our everyday communication. They have the ability to influence us and they structure our thoughts.
[29:20] The first key thing in using metaphors is identifying your user's metaphors.
[31:44] Once you know what your users are saying you can figure out those higher level conceptual metaphors they have.
[33:04] Once you have their metaphors you need to evaluate them and figure out which of their metaphors align with the behavioral outcome we want them to do.
[35:44] We have lots of ways where you can go and find what people are actually saying.
[37:57] Some metaphors can be empowering, but others can be potentially harmful.
[39:19] The next critical piece is that whatever metaphor you use to describe your user's problem you need to use the same metaphor to describe the solution.
[40:54] It is important to really think through all the ripples and steps of what a metaphor might mean and the effects it may have.
[43:27] With metaphors, it is particularly important to test because metaphors trigger associations or experiences that your users already have. You take a best guess, put it out there, and get feedback.
[44:44] Tests are always best!
[47:12] There can be so many mixed metaphors in a piece of communication.
[48:02] Mixed metaphors are like mixed messages. They increase cognitive load and make it more difficult for someone to make a decision.
[49:18] Once you decide what your core metaphor is going to be you take it and try to carry it through the entire communication.
[51:01] Go and try and find all the metaphors around you first. Then jot down all the associations you have for it.
[53:42] Melina's closing thoughts
[55:02] Cognitive semiotics, understanding how the mind makes meaning, is so key to understanding behavior. And I can't wait to keep learning and researching more and more in this space in the years to come.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Using Semiotics in Retail, by Rachel Lawes
Using Semiotics in Marketing, by Rachel Lawes
Metaphors We Live, by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson
Philosophy in the Flesh, by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson
How Customers Think, by Gerald Zaltman

Connect with Sarah:

Top Recommended Next Episode: The Power of Metaphors for Brands with Olson Zaltman (ep 181)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

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258. Making Concepts Tangible: An Introduction to Cognitive Semiotics (Refreshed Episode) Jan 31, 2023

Show notes

Today's episode is all about making concepts tangible (what that means and why it matters in life and business). I am so excited to refresh this episode for you today because it shows how I was excited about something I didn't have a word for several years ago, but was already searching for. Now I know this was at the root of my interest in cognitive semiotics, something we are digging into on this coming Friday's episode with Sarah Thompson.

Cognitive semiotics may sound super technical, but it is essentially about how the mind makes meaning, and we talk a lot about metaphor in that conversation. These brain associations and the concepts like a blue square or yellow triangle, which I introduce in this episode are from George Lakoff (I read about in his book The Political Mind, which was part of the reading in my master's program. I wish they would have included Metaphors We Live By as that would have changed my entire life if I had encountered it all these years ago, but I think things turned out ok so I'm not too mad about it.)

While I didn't realize it at the time, this episode from 2019 was my first real dive into cognitive semiotics and metaphor elicitation. This episode is all about what it means to make a concept "tangible" or a physical manifestation or physical representation of a concept, and why that is important for all kinds of businesses. Listen in for tips on making things more tangible (and making it easier for people to buy from you).

Show Notes:

[00:38] Today's episode is all about making concepts tangible.
[02:43] This isn't really a topic you can look up. There aren't really papers or extensive research on this naming. It is more of an acceptable premise. (As noted in the refreshed intro, the field of cognitive semiotics is a place to start.)
[03:21] The brain works on associations.
[05:30] The physical shapes and colors of road signs bring a physical presence that can be recalled easier.
[07:04] The physical manifestation of the brand makes the business more real in your mind because there is a logo to relate to.
[08:18] Physical representation can do two big things for a business. It can make an abstract concept more real and impactful. And, it can tie back to an emotion or memory or other association you want to remember. Abstract concepts are everywhere in business.
[10:12] Businesses will say things that are more conceptual but feel tangible. That makes the point more impactful for the customer.
[12:50] The physical, tangible representation can be tied to our emotional center and trigger loss aversion. A personal example from DVDs.
[13:35] In your business, where could you reverse the process and find a spot to inject a physical form where only a concept exists today to make your business more tangible and sticky for your customers?
[16:24] When you take something from conceptual to tangible it makes it easier for the brain to categorize, relate, and remember.
[17:04] The second way that physical representation is helpful is that it can help remind you of associations you have made previously or of what is important to you.
[19:45] A strong brand is able to live through the lack of words and evoke feelings. They leave an impression even without their name.
[21:14] What could your business do to be a constant association and reminder in the brains of your customers?
[21:22] One important reminder is to note where the association is taking place and what that says for and about your overall brand.
[23:07] You (typically) don't want to be associated with the physical manifestation of a negative concept.
[24:47] You can strategically create visuals around what you are wanting to do to help you achieve your goals. What you surround yourself with has a huge impact on your approach to life, business, and success.
[25:16] Melina's closing thoughts
[25:33] The words and images we use and how we can be more impactful when we are consistent in our metaphor usage, it's just so so important in life and business.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

Learn and Support The Brainy Business:

Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books.

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
How Customers Think, by Gerald Zaltman
Alchemy, by Rory Sutherland
Using Semiotics in Marketing, by Rachel Lawes
Metaphors We Live, by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson

Top Recommended Next Episode: Can behavioral economics increase savings? (65)

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Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
Getting to the Top of Mind: How Reminders Increase Saving
Progressive TV Commercial For Name Your Price Tool
Progressive TV Commercial 'The Box'
Jogger Commercial | Allstate Mayhem

257. Happier Hour with Cassie Holmes Jan 27, 2023

Show notes

In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Cassie Holmes. Her fantastic book Happier Hour was named a "must-read" of 2022 by Forbes AND by the Next Big Idea Club. The Washington Post also profiled it as one of their best health books read and recommended by experts in 2022.

Cassie is a Professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Management. Her research examines how focusing on time (rather than money) increases happiness, how the meaning of happiness changes over the course of life, and how much happiness people enjoy from extraordinary versus ordinary experiences. Across these inquiries, her findings highlight the joy that stems from interpersonal connection and paying attention to the present moment.

Cassie's academic research on the role of time in cultivating well-being has been published in leading academic journals, including Psychological Science, the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, and the Journal of Consumer Research, and earned her the Early Career Award from both the Association of Consumer Research and the Society of Consumer Psychology. Cassie was identified by Poets & Quants as one of the best 40 business professors under 40, and popular accounts of her research have been featured by NPR, The Economist, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times, and Scientific American.

Happier Hour is based on her wildly popular MBA course, "Applying the Science of Happiness to Life Design." It is so good and I can't wait to have you hear about some of the insights from her -- it will change your life for the better I'm sure.

Show Notes:

[00:41] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Cassie Holmes, who you met a few weeks ago when she was on the "panel" episode with Dr. Ayelet Fishbach sharing how to have the best and happiest 2023 possible.
[02:45] Her new and widely acclaimed book, Happier Hour: How to Beat Distraction, Expand Your Time, and Focus on What Matters Most, is based on her wildly popular MBA course, "Applying the Science of Happiness to Life Design."
[04:18] Cassie shares about herself, her background, and what she does. She studies happiness and in particular the role of time.
[05:22] When we feel happier, it makes us better in the work environment.
[08:02] She wrote Happier Hour after the success of her course so she could share her learnings with even more people. Readers can apply the insights and experience the benefits just like her students.
[10:10] You can have this huge impact from changing a couple of little things if you put a little focused effort forward.
[12:21] Our time is so important. Maximize the amount of time that feels worthwhile and minimize the time that feels like a waste.
[15:12] Cassie shares a day of her life early in her career when she experienced time poverty. She wanted more time so she could slow down and experience the time she was spending.
[17:15] Time poverty is that acute feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it.
[19:25] With too little discretionary time people are less happy. When we have too much discretionary spent in time that doesn't feel worthwhile, that undermines our sense of purpose and we feel less satisfied.
[21:45] It is not about how much time you have available. It is really about how you invest the time you have available.
[24:20] Discretionary is what you want to do as opposed to nondiscretionary is something you have to do.
[26:35] On average people are most satisfied from social connection. The least happy activities tend to be commuting, work hours, and housework.
[28:25] After tracking your time for a week you have a fantastic data set where you can find which activities made you feel most satisfied.
[31:05] If it is not something you have to do and you are not enjoying it, that is an opportunity to reallocate that time to things that are worthwhile.
[33:49] Simply being outside had its own significantly positive effect.
[36:28] Experiencing awe can increase one's sense of time affluence.
[38:40] You don't have to have your discretionary time all in one block.
[41:14] It is not the amount of time you spend on a particular activity that determines happiness. It is really the quality and your engagement in the activity that determines it.
[42:27] Ordinary experiences can bring us as much joy as extraordinary experiences if only we are paying attention and savoring and cherishing them.
[44:33] It is not just the amount of time you spend that determines its impact, it is really how you mentally engage in that time.
[46:55] The most worthwhile investment is in cultivating relationships. The single biggest predictor of having a satisfied life was having strong supportive relationships with family or friends that feel like family and that requires investment.
[49:01] She was living her dream life and she found herself charging ahead because she was in her head thinking about other things she had to do. It was pulling her out of the moment.
[51:24] The goal is to pause in those moments and smell the (literal or metaphorical) roses. If we are rushing because we are time poor through it all then we might as well not spend the time in the first place.
[53:13] Cassie explains why she doesn't make New Year's resolutions.
[55:41] Melina chooses a word and theme to help her through the whole year.
[58:10] Why change something that is working. She wants everyday to be what she wants it to be.
[60:12] Melina's closing thoughts
[61:29] The balance of a couple hours a day is enough for real lasting happiness.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect: