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    Strong Feelings

    Life’s too short to just “lean in” and shut up. Join host Sara Wachter-Boettcher for a feminist look at real leadership in tech and design.

    Each week, you’ll meet new authors, activists, entrepreneurs, and troublemakers of all types who are changing the status quo: fighting online harassment, dismantling white supremacy in design, and so much more. You’ll hear how they got started, where they found the courage to speak up, and what they do to take care of themselves in tough times. Produced by Active Voice.

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    Latest Episodes:
    New Erotica for Feminists with Brooke Preston, Carrie Wittmer, and Fiona Taylor Dec 04, 2018
    Show notes

    What if Tom Hardy drove up to your house to deliver loads of LaCroix and cash? That’s the premise of just one of the stories in New Erotica for Feminists, a book of “satirical fantasies of love, lust, and equal pay.” And we were lucky enough to talk to its authors! We got three out of the four—yes, four—authors on the line to talk about writing the book, how they collaborate with so many different schedules and voices in the mix, what it’s like to build a women-run comedy site on a shoestring, and why all of us could use a group of badass creative partners in our lives. > We all have a lot of rage at society…and this partnership helps us sort of channel it into a constructive way where it’s at least cathartic and we can feel like we’re helping other people laugh. I mean, that’s one of the things that came out of this book—we would love for it to change the world. It’s probably not going to do that, but at least it entertains people and makes them feel like they are not so alone.> —Fiona Taylor , co-author, New Erotica for Feminists Links on links on links Pick up New Erotica for Feminists pretty much everywhereBookmark The Belladonna, our guests’ hilarious comedy siteFollow the authors: Caitlin Kunkel, Brooke Preston, Carrie Wittmer, and Fiona TaylorRead the McSweeney’s piece that started it all Also on the agenda We talk about writing with coauthors: what works, what doesn’t, and how to make sure no one loses their shit in the process Katel talks about finding her own voice, distinct from her company’s Sara wonders if her freewheelin’ podcastin’ lifestyle is bad for business (and whether she cares) (Spoiler: her bank account cares) We say farewell to our co-host Jenn, who’s sadly not coming back to the show next season (but whose hilarious takes on balancing parenting and professional badassery we miss every day) Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher Thanks to Harvest for supporting today’s show. Harvest makes project planning software that you can use for all kinds of crucial stuff like tracking time, managing deadlines, and my personal favorite—getting paid. They’ve even got all kinds of reports you can run to gain insight and shine a light on the health of your projects. Try it free at getharvest.com and when you upgrade to a paid account, make sure you use the code “noyougo” for fifty percent off your first paid month. That’s getharvest.com, offer code “noyougo.” [intro music plays for 12 seconds] SWB Hey everyone, I’m Sara! Katel LeDû And I’m Katel. SWB And you’re listening to No, You Go, the show about building satisfying careers and businesses KL getting free of toxic bullshit SWB and living your best, feminist life at work. KL Today we are talking to Brooke Preston, Carrie Wittmer, and Fiona Taylor, three of the four—yes, four—authors of New Erotica for Feminists, a collection of “Satirical Fantasies of Love, Lust, and Equal Pay.” It came out last month, after the authors wrote a post of the same name on McSweeney’s earlier this year. We talk with them about the book, why they wrote it, and what it was like to collaborate with four co-authors, as well as how they all came to be writing partners, and what it’s like to write satirical erotica—or erotic satire??—about women getting promotions and men doing housework. It was awesome. SWB Yes, it was a super fun interview to do, but I actually want to start with something a little bit serious—creative collaboration! It’s such a big theme for us, I feel like it comes back around to that over and over again. And obviously, that’s important for me and you, but also it got me thinking about cowriting. I also co-authored a book with Eric Meyer, it’s called Design for Real Life, you may have heard of it. KL Uh, yeah I have. And I remember when you came to us, that’s actually the first and only book so far that we’ve published by two authors at A Book Apart. And when you pitched it, I was kind of not worried, but—and less worried that it would be hard for us to publish, but more about what the process was going to be like because I’d never done that with two authors and I wasn’t sure if you all had an approach or how you would do it. And I don’t think I ever really asked you about how that went. What was it like? SWB You know, you’re asking a little late. The book’s already been out for like [KL laughs] two years! [laughs] KL I know! [laughing] I’m like, “by the way…” SWB Okay! So, at first, I had this moment where I thought that maybe it would be easier than writing a book by myself because I’d actually just written my first book alone before that. And, you know, I thought it’s fewer words per person, right? KL [laughing] Yeah. That totally sounds like good math. SWB Yeah. [laughs] It wasn’t really easier. And I don’t mean that in a bad way. This is not negative in any way, it just wasn’t for me. And I think Eric would probably agree, it wasn’t necessarily an easier process than writing alone because me and Eric, we had never worked together before. So, we didn’t really have a shared history or a shared voice. It wasn’t like this came out of all these other projects, it came out of just sort of—we had some overlapping interests and we had recently become very driven to help designers sort of understand how their work could impact people or hurt people. And so we came at it with a lot of shared passion and sort of some shared values, but we just—we didn’t have a body of work or a history together to build on. So, it was like starting from scratch in a lot of ways. And I think one of the things that we tried to do was just communicate really clearly and really kind of concretely about who was doing what and how we wanted to do things. And it’s not like every decision we made at the beginning about how to break up the work stuck, things morphed over time. But I think it sort of set us up to talk to each other about it and not make assumptions about it, which was good. KL Yeah. And I can imagine. I mean, you’re two different people and it’s two different perspectives, and even though you’re both really great writers, I just want to say that at least from my perspective, it felt very smooth. And I think you’re a natural lead taker on projects, so I’m sure it helped having someone sort of steering the ship. Were your conversations with Eric productive? SWB Yeah, I think that one of the things you mentioned that it felt very smooth, I think one of the reasons it felt very smooth was that we talked a lot about how to fit things together. And, like you said, we’re both strong writers, but I think my experience is a little bit more editorial, meaning I have a lot more experience editing other people’s work. And so, for me, it would be painfully obvious where he had written something and where I had written something. And so for me— KL [laughing] Right. SWB —I spent more of that time smoothing things out before you ever saw it. KL Right. SWB And I worried a little bit—I was nervous about doing too much of it because I didn’t want to make him feel like I was changing all of his stuff or his voice, but I think that we had a good conversation about that. And fundamentally, he trusted me from that perspective and also wasn’t precious about it. And I’m glad that we had that because it did allow me to take something I was already strong at—I’m quick at doing that kind of smoothing editorial from editing other people’s work for years, that it ended up feeling pretty good. I think it made me—I think, I hope—a better writer or a better partner in projects and it also I think just made me better or more confident in collaborating with people, which is good because now I collaborate with you all the time and I don’t know, I feel like it’s going okay. [laughs] [5:35] KL Uh, definitely. I think about this a lot over the years of running A Book Apart because everyone I work with is freelance. So, there’s a lot of collaboration that has to happen in all sorts of different degrees of intensity. Even though we’ve developed a network of editors, for example, I work mainly with Lisa Maria Martin, who is our managing editor. SWB I love Lisa Maria! You know, I have gotten to collaborate with her too. I think the first time was actually way back in 2012. KL Wow! SWB I knew she wanted to quit her job, and a project came up where I was putting together a team for it—it was a really big project—and I was like, “hey, if you are ready to get out of there, I can get you on to this project with me. It’ll go for three months.” She wanted to move and so the timing was perfect. The project was not perfect, [both laugh] but the timing was good and it was the right moment for me to be able to be like, “hey, I think you’d be a really great fit for this.” And from there we’ve gotten to be able to work together a bunch of different times. And it’s just awesome when you have somebody that you can kind of sync with and that you can really trust. And so I’m really glad that you get to work with her! KL I know, me too. And I love working with her. It’s funny because I think about sort of the trajectory of how we’ve built out processes and stuff. And for a long time, I thought having several editors working across projects was the best approach, but then working more and more closely with Lisa Maria, I realized that it was more effective to have a lead on everything and then bring others in as needed. And I think we both actually realized that. Plus I think we both really love having what we consider a quote on quote “real colleague” in our day to day ABA work. I mean, I know I do and I think it’s just been really important to both of us. But I don’t think I’ve collaborated with someone on a really big project in a long time. The podcast and the other work you and I are doing are definitely the biggest outside of my daily gig. And I’m going to say it, it’s been an incredible journey. You know how I like to talk about journeys. [laughing] I have learned so— SWB [laughing] I do, I do know this about you. [both laugh] KL [laughing] I am looking at my crystals on my windowsill. I have learned so much about myself. One thing I did not realize until we started doing more together was that I was really hungry for new challenges. And then we started the podcast and I was like, “wow, here are all these things I do not know how to do.” Like developing a good interview, or crafting articulate ways to tell the stories I want to tell. And I learned so much from you, you’ve helped me get a lot more comfortable with that articulation and you just really make me feel like I am capable of anything. SWB That’s so great to hear because I also—I feel like it’s been really exciting for me over the course of the past year to hear you sort of get more comfortable in interviews, get more comfortable in our conversations and open up more. We’ve talked about this. KL Yeah. SWB I came into this doing a lot of public speaking and it doesn’t mean I knew shit about podcasting [KL laughs] because I did not. I did not. But it did mean that I was a little bit more confident putting sentences together on the fly. KL Totally. SWB And that’s just something you have to get used to. And so, I don’t know, I feel like over the course of us working on this, I’ve been like, “oh my gosh, it’s so great to hear more of your voice shining through on things.” KL I love it. SWB Okay, so something else I’ve been thinking about after we did this interview was what do you do when you have a creative project or a side project or whatever it is, and it doesn’t necessarily align with the rest of your professional identity? So, I asked our interviewees about how this fits in with the jobs that they have because they have jobs in journalism or digital strategy. And I wondered, “are you ever worried about not being taken seriously in those spheres because you’re writing feminist erotica in this other sphere?” And I asked that question for me because [laughs] I’ve wondered about that for this show. We are really open here, I talk about a lot of personal stuff, we interview people who talk about periods and sex tech or just subjects that I think a lot of corporate culture is really uncomfortable with, right? Like talking about race and racism directly. And so I’ve worried and wondered and worried and wondered over and over again—what does that do to my consulting business? And, you know, it actually hasn’t [laughs] necessarily been great for it! KL [laughs] Yeah, I mean, it’s so interesting to hear you talk about that because I think my work is associated with A Book Apart as a company, it’s so different for me. I’m not selling myself directly in the way that you are. And I feel like I do have a certain amount of flexibility and sort of safety to branch out and expand my professional persona. And obviously, I also want to stay mindful of how I present myself on behalf of A Book Apart, but it’s so interesting to kind of look at those two things side by side. [10:15] SWB Yeah and I guess as I think about it and as I talk through it out loud, I think in my head I think, “oh, maybe this podcast is at odds with my consulting.” But I actually am not sure that’s what it is. It’s more maybe, I don’t know, I guess over the past year, I feel like I’ve invested a ton of time in getting this off the ground and really wanting to make it good. And that isn’t tied directly to my consulting and as a result of that, I haven’t done a lot of work to publicly talk about practical issues within design, content strategy, user experience. And I do still have opinions on that stuff, it’s not like I don’t. But I feel like I’ve been less interested in writing and speaking about it, except for talking about sort of bias and harm in tech culture, which isn’t really the kind of thing you get hired for as a consultant. KL Yeah. SWB So, I guess maybe it’s more that. It’s like, where am I spending my time and my focus and my energy? And then thinking, “well what is the right balance?” I might give a talk about something like bias and inclusion in tech products and that might be great for a conference, but do I need that to be able to turn into a longer-term project? Do I need to build clients out of that? Do I need to focus specifically on building that side of things? Or am I okay if people don’t call me as much? [KL laughs] Am I going to be okay with that? KL Yeah. SWB And what does that look like? And so I don’t know that I have the exact answer to that yet, but it’s something I’m really thinking about. And it’s funny, it’s been seven years that I’ve worked for myself and I think this is the very first time that I’ve felt a little bit like, not just that I’m making evolutionary change or iterative change, but more like, “oh, you might be reaching a crossroads.” KL [laughing] Oh my gosh, yes! I was just realizing that. I have been with A Book Apart for—it will be six years in March, which just—I can’t believe it. And it’s amazing and it really feels like a big accomplishment, but I also think about how that’s a long time and only in the last year have I really branched out and developed a bit more of myself that isn’t strictly associated with A Book Apart. SWB I think that’s awesome. I think six years is a long time and I think it is something to celebrate, but I think it’s also a huge thing to celebrate that in the past year, you have been like, “oh wait, I’m not just this business, I am also a person with an individual identity” and wanting to kind of tease that out a bit. And, I don’t know, maybe we’re at the crossroads together. Maybe we can do a remake of that Britney Spears movie. KL Uhh, you know I’…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    Unbothered with Laura Kalbag Nov 27, 2018
    Show notes

    Writing a book is hard. Writing a book as a woman in tech is even harder. So what happens when some mansplainer comes along to rain on your well-earned parade? Laura Kalbag tells us about how she found the courage to write, why listening to women reminds her of what’s important, and how she keeps her cool even in the face of jerks. Laura is a designer and the cofounder of Ind.ie, a not-for-profit that works on protecting people’s rights in the digital age—and the author of Accessibility for Everyone. She works tirelessly to champion web accessibility—that is, making websites and apps usable for as many people as possible, including those with disability—and believes the best online experiences are ethical and inclusive. When she wrote her first book, she embarked on a journey: from doubting whether she could do it, to gracefully handling a high-profile mansplainer, to getting the attention of J.K. Rowling and Roxane Gay. All before publication day. > I don’t care about impressing little men. That’s not my job. I care about trying to reach the right people with the messages that I care about. I care about trying to make the web more inclusive, trying to make the web more ethical, and if people aren’t bothered about that, then I’m not bothered about them, quite honestly.> — Laura Kalbag , cofounder of Ind.ie and author of Accessibility for Everyone We talk about: Cofounding Ind.ie, which focuses on building technology to protect people’s privacy and rights online. What it’s like to run a company with your partner when you have wildly differing work schedules, and why respect and trust are key. The Ethical Design Manifesto: a guide Laura created to help folks make more sustainable design choices. How she navigated the book-writing and publishing process—from self-doubt to self-promotion. What it’s like to be on the receiving end of some of the worst mansplaining we’ve ever seen—and how to keep on being awesome, anyway. Follow Laura : Twitter | Ind.ie Plus: Sara and Katel share their adventures from Werk It, a women’s podcast festival, where they learned tons and got to spend two days surrounded by amazing women and non-binary folks in excellent outfits. Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. StoryWorth—the easy and fun way for your loved ones to share their stories. Get weekly prompts emailed, and a beautiful hardcover book at the end of the year. Get $20 off your StoryWorth now at storyworth.com/nyg. Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher Today’s show is brought to you by Harvest, my go-to tool for tracking time, invoices and clients. It’s easy to use on desktop or mobile and it’s great for both freelancers and large companies. And it just makes it easier for you to do things like get paid. See all the features and try it free at getharvest.com. And when you upgrade to a paid account, you are going to want to enter the code “noyougo” at checkout for fifty percent off your first month. That’s getharvest.com, code “noyougo.” [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] SWB Hey everyone, I’m Sara! Katel LeDu And I’m Katel. SWB And you’re listening to No, You Go, the show about building satisfying careers and businesses— KL — getting free of toxic bullshit— SWB —and living your best feminist life at work. KL Today we’re talking to Laura Kalbag, someone both of us have known for a while. Laura is a designer and the co-founder of a not-for-profit called Ind.ie and she’s also the author of a book I got to publish—Accessibility for Everyone. It was really great getting to know her throughout that project and I’m so glad we got to talk to her about her work and what it was like to write a book. SWB I loved talking with Laura and something that she mentioned in her interview that I was hoping we could start with is that you reached out to her to write this book, right? KL Yeah, we totally did. SWB Okay, so last week on the show you mentioned that a couple of years ago you realized that A Book Apart had been mostly publishing books by white guys. And [laughs] you really wanted to change that and so you were starting to try to figure out ways to get more diverse authors. Was reaching out the Laura kind of part of that effort? KL Yeah, so we had always really relied on people with good ideas to come to us and pitch and it was mostly we were kind of waiting for folks to just send us pitches and that’s how it worked for a while. But, well, that’s sort of how we ended up with all those white guys. So around that same time when we were thinking about this, we had noticed that Laura was doing really great work around accessibility on the web. She was speaking and writing about it and we could see that she was already articulating some of the concepts we’d wanted an accessibility book to focus on. So, we decided to reach out to her to see if she would even be interested. SWB Well, obviously she was because she wrote the book, but in the interview, she also talked about how she didn’t know if she knew enough to write a book or if she would have enough material. She was like, “I never would have done this on my own. I wouldn’t have submitted this proposal on my own.” And I totally relate to that because I have felt that way every single time I’ve written a book and that’s three books and it has not changed! [laughs] [2:38] KL [laughing] I mean, yeah. SWB And so I feel really lucky that there were other people who are out there who advocated for me—there were people who nudged me when I needed to be nudged—because I think that without that, I don’t think I would have written any of them. I mean, I really didn’t know what exactly I had in me until somebody kind of tapped me on the shoulder. And one of the things that has been really interesting for me to think about is how you’re doing that as a publisher, but that doesn’t have to come from a publisher, that can come from lots of places. For me, the only time a publisher did that was on book number three, but for the first two, it was people I looked up to in my field and that was super important. KL Who was the first person who did that for you? SWB It was actually Kristina Halvorson. Some of our listeners probably know who she is. If you come from user experience and content strategy, that name is really familiar. She is the author of a book as well and pretty big proponent for content strategy and runs conferences. And so, you know, this is kind of something that she does. But when she reached out to me, it was like 2011, it was before I had ever really spoken at a conference. I hadn’t done much of anything public really. I mean, I’d written a few blog posts. That was really what I had done is I’d written a few blog posts. And she got me the phone one day and she was just like, “you should write a book and Louis Rosenfeld”—the guy who runs Rosenfeld Media—she’s like, “and Louis Rosenfeld’s going to publish it.” And I was taken aback. I was not expecting this at all. KL Yeah. SWB I remember that she DMed me to say, “hey, can I get you on the phone?” I was at work one day at my job I was totally burned out at and I was like, “I’ve no idea where this is going, but I’ve got to go somewhere because I’m really miserable right now and this is very exciting.” KL Yeah. SWB So anyway, so—I figured, “well, I don’t know that I believe in me, but she seems to believe in me, so I’m going to see where this goes. And if Louis says that he wants me to write a book for him, I’ll do it. I might do it badly [both laugh], but I’m going to give it a shot!” And so that’s what I did and, you know, I haven’t opened that book in a while because looking at your past work is tough. So, I don’t know how I would feel about everything in it today, but I would say that a lot of people have told me that was really really helpful to them—getting them to understand a concept of structured content, which isn’t important for this particular conversation—but getting people to understand that at a time when a lot of people in my field found that very confusing and breaking it down and making it easy for them. And I think that that was really all I ever wanted, right? Like wanting other people to understand the things that I had found really helpful for me in my work. And so I mean definitely big thanks to Kristina because that was such a pivotal moment for me. [5:20] KL That’s so incredible. I really wish everyone could have that. I mean, I feel like this is part of what made us want to start that research we mentioned earlier this season where we interviewed people and sent out a survey asking folks about building their career visibility. And it was so exciting to start talking to people about how they built their profiles—finding out what was easy, what wasn’t and I think we’re seeing some ways we could help folks feel more empowered to go pitch a book proposal, or a conference talk, or start writing and actually share that writing. SWB Or like start podcasting? KL Yeah! [SWB laughs] SWB Yeah, no, I want to focus on this a lot more this coming year, you know, 2018 is almost over and I feel like I’m just kind of coasting into the holidays now. [both laugh] But for 2019, this is a big goal of mine, right? I want to help more people have the same kinds of pivotal career moments that I got to have. And something that I’ve been thinking a lot about is mine have been really ad hoc, right? Kristina Halvorson happened to notice my work—I mean, she was paying attention, it wasn’t totally random. But she happened to notice my work, she happened to have recently had a conversation with Louis Rosenfeld, who was somebody she already knew as a peer—about what he was looking for for his publishing house next, and then she had the kindness and was willing to give the time to reach out to me and to kind of help me along and encourage me and helped me make connections, right? She was the one who introduced me to Louis and that at the time felt a little bit scary—I wasn’t going to just email that person out of the blue. And so that’s something that I definitely have tried to do for other people now that I’m in a more comfortable place or a place where I feel like I have a lot more credibility and people kind of know who I am. I definitely send out recommendations like, “oh you should really get this person at your conference,” or try to connect people to book publishers or whatever kind of opportunities they’re looking for—recommending people for jobs or contracts. Whatever it is, right? Because I feel like that is one of the ways that I can make sure that a wider range of people are getting access to opportunities and also that when I know people are out there with really great ideas or doing really great work that they are getting recognized for it. But it’s not enough to just do it at that ad hoc level. I think that that’s great and I’m glad I’m doing that and everybody should do that. I hope anybody who has the power to do it does it. But I just think that there’s so much room to do this at a more systemic level. I’ve been paying a lot of attention to projects like Women Talk Design, which I think we’ve mentioned before in our newsletter, where they are curating this big collection of women and non-binary speakers and the talks that those people have given because they’re really trying to get more women in front of conference organizers and to make sure that event organizers are never going like well, I don’t know where to find anybody who can talk about X or Y who’s not a man. KL Right. SWB Because that’s not true, they just don’t know where to look, right? KL Yeah, exactly. SWB So, they’re saying, “no we’re going to try to do this at a broader scale” but I still feel like there’s so much more to work on here. I want to help people figure out, you know, what do they want to talk or write about, what do they really want to share? What are the things that they figured out that have really helped them in their work that they feel like other people would benefit from if they just knew about them? How can we help people figure out what those things are? How can we make it easier for them to organize their ideas and share their ideas because something Laura mentioned is that it wasn’t until she sat down and wrote an outline and really put together all of her ideas that she could see that she did in fact have a body of work there—she had a lot of material and she had opinions! [9:05] KL Yes! SWB And I think though that sitting down, writing an outline and getting all of your opinions into one place—that’s a super fucking daunting task if you’re doing it by yourself. That’s so hard, I wouldn’t do it. KL Yeah, absolutely. SWB And so it’s like, how do you get yourself to that place mentally? Well, you need some help probably and what if we could give people more tools for that and more opportunities for that where they felt like they had that support? KL Definitely. And yeah, I mean talking to Laura got me so inspired to sit down and really get to work on this—figuring out if we want to write a book on this, or give workshops, or who knows! Because we—we totally need more voices like Laura’s. SWB I think we’ve talked about her interview enough. I think everybody needs to hear it now. KL Definitely. [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] SPONSOR: STORY WORTH KL I just sent my mom the coolest gift for her birthday, thanks to our sponsor this week, Story Worth. I’ve always loved the idea of recording some of our family history, but I never really knew where to start or how to do it. Frankly, it kind of seemed complicated. But Story Worth helps you share a family stories in a very easy way. Here’s how it works. I just went to storyworth.com, signed up with my email address, invited my mom to tell her story, and that’s it. Story Worth will send her weekly questions prompting her to tell a story, which she can write or record. She has some really interesting stories that I want to know more about and keep forever—like how she met my dad in the Peace Corps or Benin in West Africa or how she had to tread water for half an hour holding a brick over her head to train as a lifeguard. So, Story Worth lets her do that and I love that any data she shares stays safe and secure on their site. And at the end of the year, we get an awesome hardcover keepsake book to share and pass around the whole family. You know, she’s such an important woman to me and I’m so excited to hear more about and celebrate her. And I can’t wait to share Story Worth with her. It’s such a perfect birthday gift and hey, the holidays are coming up too! So, if you want to record and share your own stories or invite your friends and family to join in the fun, go to storyworth.com/nyg to get started. And right now No, You Go listeners get $20 off. That’s s-t-o-r-y-w-o-r-t-h dot com slash nyg. [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] [11:20] INTERVIEW: LAURA KALBAG SWB Laura Kalbag is an author and the co-founder of Ind.ie, a not-for-profit that works on protecting people’s rights in the digital age. Katel even got to work with Laura when she wrote Accessibility for Everyone for A Book Apart—something that then got the attention of folks like JK Rowling and Roxane Gay. Yes. I am so excited that Laura is here to talk with us about that and about all the incredible work that she does. Laura, thank you for joining us on No, You Go. Laura Kalbag Thank you for having me. It’s really exciting to be able to talk on a podcast with two people who’ve actually given me great opportunities in my career themselves. SWB Oh, [laughs] that’s lovely to hear, but I think that both Katel and I have been big f…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    Radical Filmmaking with Emily Best Nov 20, 2018
    Show notes

    Do you feel like you see yourself and your friendships reflected in most TVs or movies? We sure don’t. Emily Best tells us why we won’t get more diverse representations of women on screen unless we change the way films and shows are funded and distributed—and how she plans to do just that. Emily is a producer, director, and the founder and CEO of Seed & Spark, a new crowdfunding and streaming platform that wants to change the way entertainment is made and distributed—so that independent creators can actually be independent. She started Seed & Spark after making her own first film, where she learned just how little Hollywood’s middlemen understood about reaching women. > I started thinking of all the movies I had ever watched and everything that was available to me and I was like, “where are my friendships? Where are the women I admire?” And they were nowhere to be found. And so, that summer we started toying with the idea of making a movie that would represent female friendships the way that we understood them. And I didn’t know that this was a radical idea.> — Emily Best , founder of Seed & Spark, on why she made her first film We talk about: Why the film industry doesn’t see women as a viable audience (spoiler: they’re wrong about that). Using a wedding registry website to create a crowdfunding campaign for her first film. Why Seed & Spark is the only streaming service with a pay-what-you-can model—and a community where creators and fans build real connection. Why algorithmic content recommendations—a la Netflix—lead us to an unsatisfying place (and how to change that). The importance of creating a code of conduct for online communities—_before_ you’ve got trolls and Nazis. Fck Yes!, a webseries about consent that shows what happens when people actually talk in the bedroom—and how awkward moments can turn into extremely sexy ones. What’s next for Emily: A documentary project about the Equal Rights Amendment (which is still not ratified). Follow Emily : Twitter | Medium Plus: Sara and Katel get real about their own failures when it comes to diversifying who’s involved in what, and talk about their fave subject: female friendship (and donuts). > By doing the thing that was easy, which was bringing in somebody who was already connected to us, who we knew would be a good fit, we weren’t able to think about the benefits of bringing in somebody from a different background.> —Sara Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher Today’s episode is brought to you by Harvest, the makers of time-tracking and project-planning tools for all kinds of businesses. Track vendors, map out complex tasks and team schedules, send invoices, and just look cool, calm, and collected the whole time. Try it free at getharvest.com, and when you upgrade to a paid account, make sure to use the code “noyougo” for 50% off your first paid month. That is getharvest.com, offer code “noyougo.” [intro music plays for 12 seconds] Katel LeDû Hey everyone, I’m Katel. SWB And I’m Sara! KL And you’re listening to No, You Go, the show about building satisfying careers and businesses— SWB —getting free of toxic bullshit— KL —and living your best, feminist life at work. On today’s show, we’re talking with Emily Best. She’s the founder and CEO of Seed & Spark, which is a platform for crowdfunding and streaming TV and movies. She’s also a producer and director herself, and she’s just really fucking cool. She’s here to talk with us about what it’s like as a woman creator in Hollywood, and what she’s doing to change that for everyone. SWB I am so glad we got to talk to Emily about this, because I feel like this has been such a big conversation in Hollywood the past couple of years—talking about things like pay inequality or—you know—#oscarssowhite, or even the #metoo movement. Looking at representation in entertainment is such a big deal, but it also really got me thinking about just how systems of inequality are perpetuated in general, like the way that across industries, people who already have connections, who are already in the right networks, they’re the ones who get to have new opportunities, and other people just stay shut out. And it’s this “rich get richer” sort of thing. And that’s definitely not just in entertainment, I mean that’s absolutely something we’ve talked about in tech. You know, I remember when we had Nicole Sanchez on the show and, you know, she does diversity and inclusion consulting, and she talked about going into different companies to try to help them de-bias their hiring processes, and what she would find is that these companies would still ultimately want to hire people from the exact same backgrounds as always, right? So even though they said they didn’t want to be biased, they would want to hire people who went to the same schools that they had gone to, or who had worked the same companies that they had also worked at. So, what you end are with are these systems that are just circular, right? So, it’s the same people hiring the same people over and over again. And obviously, I think that that is bad—I think that if you’re listening to this show, you know where we stand on that—but what I really had to think about that I want to talk more about is the way that I’m also part of that system. And—you know—like you and me, right? We’ve actually even I think been a little bit part of that system on the show. So, for example, a while back we decided we wanted to bring somebody on to help us a few hours a week just to help us have our shit together and up our game, right? So, helping us share more cool stuff on social media and help us manage our inbox, and email guests—things like that. So, we were basically looking for a production coordinator and we ended up hiring someone awesome. Her name is Sarah Blackstock and shoutout to her, we love her. But she wasn’t someone from outside of our network. Katel, she was somebody that you already knew. [3:06] KL Yeah, and I totally agree with this and Sarah does this kind of work part-time with us at A Book Apart and I suggested to you that we should consider her because I thought, “damn, she’d be a great fit.” And she is a great fit. She’s awesome at managing social stuff and just totally vibes with us in terms of caring about—you know—our podcast, the same issues that we want to talk about, which is great. But it’s true, she got this gig because she was—you know—already in our orbit. And granted, it’s—you know—it’s not like a full-time thing, it’s—it’s a few hours a week, but we didn’t search for her. SWB Yeah, and I guess what that fundamentally comes down to is that our show ends up still being—you know—created and produced by a bunch of white women. And all the time I am talking about how I want to make sure we’re elevating the voices of people who aren’t white, people who are different than us, and it’s really easy to rely on the same old, same old. And when you’re white, that ends up tending to be other white people. And so—you know—obviously, we’ve put effort into making sure we have diverse people on the show and I—and I think that we’ve done a reasonable job there—not always perfect, but I think that’s definitely something that you can see—you know—in the history that we have. But I think we need to acknowledge something here. And I think what we need to acknowledge is that by doing the thing that was easy, which was bringing in somebody who was already connected to us, who we knew would be a good fit, we weren’t able to think about the benefits of bringing in somebody from a different background and what that might bring to the show that would be different and equally as good or potentially even better. Who knows, right? Because it wasn’t even on our radar. KL Yeah. SWB So—you know—Sarah’s awesome and—and I don’t want to minimize that because she’s great and I love her and I want to keep her on the show, but I do feel like I just want to be honest about that. I don’t think I thought enough about what we might be missing out on by not casting a wider net. And so I feel like it’s important to talk about that publicly because if we keep growing, and I really hope that we do, I want to make sure that we’re doing better next time, that we’re really thinking about that and thinking about who we are going to and how we are going about those decisions. Because I think even at the small scale, they’re so crucial. [5:09] KL Yeah, this is something I think about a lot too when it comes to who we’re working with at A Book Apart. And I definitely don’t think we talk about it enough and we haven’t done a good enough job. And we need to be up front about that because who we work with is very public. It’s obvious if you look at who our authors are, who we’ve published—it’s a lot of white guys. So, I think when I realized this was a problem, and that was a couple of years ago, I started doing a lot of things differently and I—and I still—you know—there’s still work to do. But I thought about, I need to make our proposal submission process a lot more open and visible and push it out to—you know—to people who might not have seen it or might not have thought to contribute something. So, I published the outline and a form on our website and I wrote a blog post about it and I was hoping to share it with communities that would circulate it. And that’s still just small percentage of what I could be doing to do more outreach. I’m also looking actively for people who are speaking and writing about things that we might publish, and I think the challenge that I run into a lot is that I’m one person. So, I can get to a bunch of—or a couple of—conferences a year and sort of look for talent, but it’s time consuming, all of that takes time. And I think when I look at bringing on different voices, if I sign somebody today, their book might not come out for another year or two, so—you know—talking about that sort of moment I recognized this big problem, next year I think our lineup is maybe 90% women authors, which is so rad, I’m so proud of that. But that—that took a long time. SWB Totally. I mean, it takes forever to even figure out when you’re talking to somebody if they really are ready to write a book and want to write a book badly enough to actually do it, and then want to invest the time in fleshing it out and then also even what their idea is. All that stuff just takes forever, it’s not—it’s nothing you can kind of short-shrift. KL Right, exactly. And I—that’s one of my favorite parts of the process is working with folks to make that happen. And if you don’t do it in the beginning, it’s like you’re playing catch-up and trying to solve this much bigger problem later on. [7:25] SWB Yes. And that actually reminds me of something that Emily said in her interview, which I thought was really helpful and a really great conversation, where she was talking about setting up boundaries for building an inclusive community and a community that doesn’t tolerate harassment and she was like, “well, we haven’t had any problems with that yet, but I decided to write a code of conduct before we had problems.” And I think that’s exactly the right approach for so much of this, right? You have to build in that inclusion from the beginning because otherwise it’s really hard and slow to try to right that ship down the line, because you’re trying to undo stuff, or you’re in a defensive position. And so, it means that—you know—you really cannot start out by only thinking about desired outcomes. You can’t just think about all the positives, you have to think about the negatives, or you have to think about who you could be leaving out or who could be hurt by whatever it is that you’re doing. And so—you know—that’s something I think about when it comes back to us. It’s like we were thinking about all the positives of working with Sarah that we didn’t think about what we might be missing out on by not opening it up to other people. And I think that’s on us, and that’s something that I’m definitely going to be thinking about for a while. KL Yeah, totally, me too. Well, Emily said so much inspiring stuff, do you want to take a listen? SWB Yes. [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out][8:38] Sponsor: Harvest SWB So, our friends at Harvest asked us if we could try using their time tracking software for something a little bit different. So, Katel, do you have any personal time problems we can solve? KL I actually do. So, I’ve been knitting this blanket and I have actually been working on it for two years. And I can only seem to get myself to work on it in the winter and it’s just taking forever. I just counted and I have done 180 rows so far, and that means I have 252 more rows to complete the pattern. SWB Oh my god, that sounds like so much! It’s going to be three more years! KL Ugh, I know. [laughs] And I just can’t work on this for that long, I need to set a schedule and get it done or I’m going to give up. SWB Okay, so how long does it take you to knit one row? KL Well, I tracked my time working on it yesterday and it takes me about ten minutes. SWB Okay, so you’ve got 2,520 minutes. So 2,520 divided by 60 is exactly 42 hours. So, okay. If you just made knitting this blanket your full-time job for a week—I mean, on top of your other full-time job and this podcast—you could get it done! KL Right. Yeah… SWB Okay, okay, so you’re not going to do that. Okay, so we have—we have to do some project planning. So, it is six weeks until January 1st. If you knit for seven hours a week until the end of the year, you could have this completely done. You could do this in an hour a day! KL Ooh! Or like two episodes of the new Charmed every day. I think I can do that. SWB I think you can definitely watch two episodes of Charmed. [laughs] But you’re going to run out of Charmed, right? How many episodes are there? KL There are only a few. SWB Oh, okay, what else is in your queue? Are you caught up on Riverdale? KL Definitely gotta catch up on that. Um and I might need another show in the queue—if anyone has suggestions. SWB Send them in! But also, this is pretty doable, right? Just an hour a night watching your teen dramas, knitting your rows, and you’ll get it done! So, all it took was some time tracking and some forecasting and now you can—you know—put it in your schedule and stick with it, which is exactly what Harvest tries to help you with. So, they’ve got this tool called Forecast where you can schedule teams out across projects and then track how booked up different people are or how free people are. And that way, you know just how much people can fit into their schedules or how many Charmed episodes they can watch. So, check it out at getharvest.com/forecast. [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] [11:00] Interview: Emily Best KL Emily Best is the founder and CEO of Seed & Spark, a new crowdfunding and streaming platform that wants to change the way entertainment is made and distributed. She’s also an advocate for diversity in entertainment and a producer and director in her own right. Her current creative project is “Fuck Yes,” a web series about sexual consent. Uhh… fuck yes to that! Emily, welcome to No, You Go. Emily Best Thank you so much for having me. KL So, let’s start with Seed & Spark. Can you tell us about it and how it came to be? EB Yeah. So, we built something that hasn’t been built before, which is that we’ve combined crowdfunding and subscription streaming into a single platform. So, I think rather than thinking of us like a crowdfunding platform, we’re more like a creative marketpl…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    Headed to Congress with Jenn Taylor-Skinner Nov 13, 2018
    Show notes

    The midterms are over (though the recounts and runoffs may not be). So we make sense of what happened—and what’s next—with Jenn Taylor-Skinner, the host of our fave new feminist political podcast, The Electorette. Jenn tells us all about why she’s feeling pretty good about the midterms, how she plans to keep up the momentum into 2020, and why having a bilateral pulmonary embolism—yep, the same thing Serena Williams had—made her take a hard pivot into podcasting in 2017. Now she’s the full-time host of The Electorette—one of Teen Vogue’s picks for political podcasts, and a show you’ve gotta add to your rotation. > I just really wanted a space where women could speak without being interrupted. And I had no idea how much I had a hunger for that myself.> —Jenn Taylor-Skinner, host, The Electorette Follow Jenn | Follow The Electorette On the agenda More than 100 women are headed to Congress—including the first Native women, the first Muslim women, and the youngest women ever Florida voted to re-enfranchise more than a million people with felony convictions—and this is really freaking important Protecting voter rights and making sure no one ever has to wait six hours at the polls should be top priority (Jenn recommends Ari Berman’s book, Give Us the Ballot) White women gotta do better Maxine Waters remains iconic Plus: we fucking love all your “I Voted” sticker selfies (here’s Sara’s!), your lil baby voter pics, and…you. Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Care/of, a monthly subscription vitamin service that delivers completely personalized vitamin and supplement packs right to your door. Save 25% off your first month using promo code NYG. Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher Harvest is the time tracking and project planning software I rely on to keep my business running smoothly. And you can rely on it too! With awesome features like Harvest Forecast, which helps you figure out who’s assigned to what and keep track of workload, and tons of reports that shine a light on the health of your projects, Harvest makes it easier to focus on getting things done, not busywork. Try it free at getharvest.com, and when you sign up for a paid account, use the code “noyougo” to save 50% off your first month. That’s getharvest.com, code “noyougo.” [intro music plays for 12 seconds] Katel LeDû Hey everyone, I’m Katel. SWB And I’m Sara! KL And you’re listening to No, You Go, the show about building satisfying careers and businesses— SWB —getting free of toxic bullshit— KL —and living your best, feminist life at work. SWB And as I’m sure all of you know, last week was a big week here in the US. We finally had the midterm elections, which I was on pins and needles about. So, we’re going to talk a little bit about that today—we’re going to talk about what happened, and what’s next. And to help us out, we invited Jenn Taylor-Skinner onto the show. Jenn’s the host of The Electorette, an intersectional, feminist podcast about politics. And she is going to tell us more about her perspective on the midterms, as well as what it was like to trade a career in tech for running a political podcast and how she keeps it all together even when she’s talking about heavy stuff all day like voter suppression and reproductive justice. So, first up, Katel, how was your election day? KL It was good, I actually went in the middle of the day, which is a little uncharacteristic for me. I usually go first thing, I think you like to do that too. But I was lucky because there were no lines and it was pretty easy. I definitely was thinking about how that was absolutely not everyone’s experience, but I was extremely anxious the entire day and I think I had my shoulders up around my ears all night. SWB Ugh, yes. I was also feeling very anxious. And I was so upset, you know, watching on Twitter when people were reporting six hour lines at their polling place and broken machines and I mean, it’s not that I think that Philadelphia’s polling locations run super smoothly. [KL laughs] You know, my husband was actually working the polls and he was like, “oh boy, these voting machines,” but we didn’t have those kinds of lines. And I think, I mean obviously that’s just a travesty, right? Voting should not take six hours. You should not have to be waiting through all of this mayhem, it’s just ridiculous. But, luckily that was not my personal experience, so I do like to go early. I meant to get there right at seven when they opened, but I was writing an email or something, so I got there at 7:25 and there was already a good line. And so as I’m shuffling up there, I see none other than Lizz Fiedler, who you might remember. She was a guest back in season one running for the PA legislature in my district, right? And she was out there welcoming voters at my polling location, which was rad. [2:51] KL That’s so awesome. SWB Yeah, so I got to chat with Lizz and even though her candidacy at that point was a pretty sure thing, she was running unopposed because her district is 90% democrat [KL laughs]—for her the primary was the big deal. But even so, she was still feeling pretty nervous because she told me she had spent, you know, fifteen months putting everything she had into this campaign and she just—it’s not real until it’s real. KL That is so cool, I remember going to the party she had when she won the nomination, which was amazing. And this is definitely the first time that I’ve been this close to folks who are actually running in these races. It’s very exciting. SWB Yes. It was really awesome also that I ran into her outside of the polling place and then I got to literally walk inside and vote for her. KL [laughing] Yeah. SWB It was great. And so also like I said, my husband was working the polls and he was there at 6:15 in the morning— KL Ugh. SWB —wrapped up around 9pm and, you know, it was definitely quite a day. [KL laughs] But he noted that turnout was really high in Philly, which was also—that was encouraging to hear. So yeah, I mean it was a stressful day and a lot of—a lot of ups and downs, but you know, here we are. KL So, obviously we didn’t win back the Senate and there were some awesome people running who didn’t win, but it’s been a few days and I think it’s important to talk about some of the bright spots. Like here in Pennsylvania, we are finally going to send some women to Washington. We mentioned before on the show that right now Pennsylvania has 18 reps in the house and none are women, which is changing in January, which is amazing. Four women will join the delegation: Mary Gay Scanlon, Madeleine Dean, Susan Wild and Chrissy Houlahan. SWB That is so reassuring and even though four out of eighteen is [coughs] not enough [KL laughs], it’s still okay—that is so crucial, right? We need those voices. So, we don’t have the representation we need, but there are a lot of really great wins for women and I just want to recap a few of the ones that are so exciting because I know it can get lost a little bit as we are still facing all of the same problems we were facing before, as our political landscape is still a freaking nightmare. It can get a little lost, so let’s just remember some stuff. Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib from Minnesota and Michigan, they are going to be the first Muslim women to serve in Congress. And then you’ve got Sharice Davids from Kansas and Deb Haaland from New Mexico, who are going to become the first Native American women to serve in Congress. Veronica Escobar and Sylvia Garcia are the first Latinas that Texas has ever sent to Congress. Which like, come on, Texas? KL I mean, seriously. [5:20] SWB And then in Massachusetts you’ve got them sending their very first Black woman to the House, that is Ayanna Pressley. And then also the youngest women ever were elected in to the House, so New York’s Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who obviously everybody was excited about during her primary upset, you know, she was a shoo-in during the election, her district was so strongly Democratic, so of course she won. But now, at 29 years old—she just turned 29—she’s the youngest women who has ever been elected to Congress. KL That’s so rad. SWB Yes! And then it’s not just her. Abby Finkenauer of Iowa is also 29, although she’s going to turn 30 in December, [KL laughs] so she’ll be 30 when she actually goes there. KL That’s a pretty good birthday. SWB Gosh, I know. Can you imagine? We didn’t quite hit this goal. KL [laughing] Yeah. SWB And then finally, one other person I wanted to mention—not a woman, but Jared Polis of Colorado will be the first openly gay governor, which I think is also pretty rad. KL That is also amazing. So, this is all so encouraging and it’s really nice to pause and get excited about all the good news and, of course, we need to know that there is still so much to do. SWB Yes, and I think that’s one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to Jenn from The Electorette because she’s just immersed in this stuff every single day and when we talked to her, she was feeling really positive. She was feeling good. You know, I thought it was so interesting to hear her talk about why she’s feeling positive because there’s a lot of reasons you could point to to not feel good, but she’s choosing to look at all of these encouraging signs and to focus in on, well, what are we going to do next and where do we focus our energy? And so I felt like we had a really good and nuanced discussion about that that I think you all are going to love. [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] Sponsor: Care/of SWB Care/of is a monthly subscription vitamin service that delivers completely personalized vitamin and supplement packs right to your door. Or I should say to my door because I just got my first Care/of shipment the other day and, Katel, I have to tell you it is pretty cool. KL Ooh, wait, so how do you figure out what you get? SWB Okay, so this is pretty neat. So, you go to takecareof.com and you do this online quiz thing and what it does is it asks you all about your habits and your goals. So, for example, you know I go to the gym a lot, so they’ll ask you about exercise, and if they—if you want vitamins that are going to help you with workout recovery. Or they’ll ask you if you want to sleep better or focus better. And so I took it and I was like “oh yeah, give me some of that good brain stuff.” [laughs] [7:32] KL Ughh. I could use that too. SWB Seriously. So, okay, so then once you decide what you want, Care/of is going to ship your vitamins to you in these awesome, daily pill packs, so you have this personalized mix of stuff that is already organized for you. You don’t have to fuss with a bunch of bottles, I just grab a pack while I’m making coffee. Oh and there are vegetarian options and vegan options if that’s your jam and speciality items like prenatal and postnatal vitamins for all of you mommas-to-be out there. So, for 25% off your first month of personalized Care/of vitamins, visit takecareof.com and enter the promo code “nyg.” That’s 25% off your first month of vitamins, only at takecareof.com, promo code “nyg.” [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] Interview: Jenn Taylor-Skinner SWB Jenn Taylor-Skinner is the creator and host of The Electorette, a podcast about politics, feminism and intersectionality where she interviews women who are leading causes and making change—from Black Lives Matter organizers to reproductive rights experts. And we invited Jenn here today to give us some expert perspective on the election and tell us a little bit more about her show and her story. Jenn, welcome to No, You Go.Jenn Taylor-Skinner Thank you, I’m excited to be here. SWB First off, can you tell us a little bit about The Electorette? JTS Yes. So, I started The Electorette probably a little over a year ago, so I guess at the end of the summer in 2017 or early fall in 2017. And it was actually somewhat of a long time coming because after Trump’s election and after Hillary Clinton’s loss in 2016, I felt that I needed to do something. And if I look back in my history, I think that I registered The Electorette domain one week after the election. And so it wasn’t until later after, I think the spring of 2017 where I—after I’d gone to The Women’s March in DC and I met a lot of brilliant, brilliant, passionate women there and I thought, “You know what? I just want to talk to women.” I—being in technology had spent most of my time around engineers and lots of male heavy teams, but after being at The Women’s March, there was so much energy there in DC and around the world basically that I just felt that I wanted more of that all of the time. SWB And so now you’re doing that pretty much full time, right? What was that decision like to kind of jump in wholeheartedly? [9:45] JTS So, like I said, I registered the domain right after the election, but I wasn’t quite sure, you know, how we make these kind of big decisions in our head and in our heart, but we don’t quite jump in? [laughs] And sometimes it takes something big to push us? Well so my big thing—and like I said, I’ve never told this story—so my big thing was sometime around late spring in 2017, I had a bilateral pulmonary embolism, right? The same thing that Serena Williams had, you know, a clot in both lungs. And so long story as to how that happened and how that was diagnosed, but basically, it was pretty serious. And I realized that life was precious and it could end at any moment, you know. I am and I was a really healthy person, it was just kind of this medical fluke that this happened to me. I realized that I really needed to stop wasting my time in spaces where my voice wasn’t being elevated and it wasn’t being heard, and I really wanted to do this. So, I just made a hard pivot. I mean, I think after I got—I was released from the hospital, I think I went back to work and I resigned. SWB Wow, that’s amazing. KL Wow. SWB So, what’s it been like this kind of first year, little over a year of the show, both for you personally and then also, you know, as you’ve been running this hyper political show focused on feminist issues in the run up to the midterms in the midst of a truly wild year? JTS So, as soon as I started asking women to come on the show and to be interviewed, I had no idea how much energy there was to do something like this and how much hunger there was for women’s voices to be elevated. So, one of the goals that I had with The Electorette was to kind of counter the incorrect messaging out there around lots of things, around reproductive health, around gun violence and all of these things—but hear it from women. You know, again, this kind of goes back to my experience spending most of my career in technology and, you know, what happens when you work in technology when you’re on male-heavy teams, often women’s voices and their opinions aren’t heard. You get talked over—your ideas aren’t listened to. And I just really wanted a space where women could speak without being interrupted. And I had no idea how much I had a hunger for that myself. SWB Yes! I think that’s something that me and Katel can definitely relate to on this show because I feel like every time we interview people, we’re just like, “how do we friend her?” KL Yeah, we always want to hang out with [laughing] the people we talk to way more. [12:01] SWB Okay, so in addition to talking about making friends on podcasts, I also want to talk to you about the midterms themselves because a lot has happened and, you know, when our listeners are hearing this, it will be just about a week after election day and so, of course, everybody will know we didn’t take the Se…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    How to Be Successful with Sarah Cooper Oct 30, 2018
    Show notes

    How do you decide when to take a huge leap in your career? What happens when your therapist thinks leaving your cushy tech job is a terrible idea—but you do it anyway? Googler-turned-comedian Sarah Cooper joins us to talk about writing satire, redefining success, and making men mad along the way. Sarah’s latest book is called How to Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings: Non-Threatening Leadership Strategies for Women, and it’s out today (we got a preview copy, and it’s so great). She also runs The Cooper Review, a wildly popular satirical blog about business culture, and in 2016, her first book, 100 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings, was a bestseller. We love Sarah because she’s funny as hell, and also incredibly open about what it’s like to trade a career in tech for the sometimes lonely—but also wildly satisfying—world of comedy. > I have so many outlets to discover myself and who I really am, which is something that I think is just really important for a life, you know? To know you left everything on the table and you told every story that you wanted to tell and you let everyone know who you are—and you didn’t leave this world without telling everybody that.>> —Sarah Cooper, comedian and author of How to Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings She tells us about: Leaving a career at Google to perform standup and write satire all day What happens when people think your satire is serious How being a Jamaican immigrant taught her to observe people so she could fit in The pros and cons of being a “people-pleaser”—and how to let go of that when it stops serving you How keeping a “best self journal” helps her stay focused while working alone Also in this episode Sara and Katel talk about the big career choices they’ve made, and how they’ve built structures and support systems to make those careers work for them. Deets: Sara celebrates seven whole years without a traditional “jobby-job,” and thinks back on Cindy Gallop’s advice that working for yourself is the least risky thing you can do Katel tells us why she took a pay cut to run A Book Apart—and how she handles the lonely parts of working, well, alone We both definitely wear fancy blazers at all times> I remember being so excited to work with a much smaller team and fewer people… I was like, “oh my gosh, this is going to be so great, it’s going to be just a few people, it’s going to be really nimble.” And then I realized that most of the time it was really just going to be me working kind of by myself. And it was a lot harder than I expected because there was essentially no structure unless I made it, and it took me at least a good year to kind of figure out how I was going to work, how I was going to be productive, whether I even liked that way of working enough to keep doing it.>> — Katel on trading corporate life for running an indie publishing company Plus: Our friends at Harvest want to make sure you know about Graywolf Press and 826 National. Fuck yeah for rock ‘n’ roll, women musicians, mental health, and our fave live show in fooooorever: Courtney Barnett. Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher [Ad spot] Thanks for Harvest to being our sponsor today—and for making awesome project management and time tracking tools that I rely on to keep my business running. I think you’ll love them too. They offer all kinds of reports that help you shine a light on the health of your projects, and they make it easy to track invoices and payments. Try it free at getharvest.com, and when you sign up for a paid account, you can use the code “noyougo” to save 50% off your first month. That’s getharvest.com, offer code “noyougo.” [intro music plays for 12 seconds] SWB Hey everyone, I’m Sara! Katel LeDû And I’m Katel. SWB And you’re listening to No, You Go, the show about building satisfying careers and businesses— KL —getting free of toxic bullshit— SWB —and living your best feminist life at work. KL “How to Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings” is the title of our new favorite book, and it’s out today. It’s written by our guest, Sarah Cooper, and we are so pumped to talk with her today. Okay, along with some extremely funny, satirical advice for getting by in the workforce, Sarah gets real about why she wrote the book, and what happens when people don’t understand that it’s satire. And how she managed a massive change in her own work life, going from being a manager at Google to a full-time comedian and writer. SWB Yes, I was super interested in that, and I was hoping we could talk more about that transition piece. Because companies like Google are so designed to really keep you there in a lot of ways, right? You don’t just get fed at work, you also get dry cleaning and haircuts. KL So weird. SWB It’s super weird. [KL laughs] But they’re very—you know—once you’re in them, they can be very cushy places to be— KL Yeah. SWB —and they also oftentimes will feel like you’re doing exciting work, and you’re paid really well, and so there’s a lot of stuff that kind of keeps people there. I have a friend who recently mentioned that—you know—she’s been at Google a long time and the idea of leaving is really hard for her. So, it’s interesting to hear Sarah talk about leaving somewhere like Google to do something that was so uncertain and so risky, right? Like a career in comedy and writing? That’s such a dramatic pivot. KL Yeah, I know. It is—it’s so fascinating and I loved listening to her story. But, Sara, you’ve been working for yourself for as long as I’ve known you, but that wasn’t always the case. That hasn’t been your whole career, you made a big moving from working at a traditional—you know—jobby-job to go out on your own in 2011, right? SWB Yeah, actually October has been my seven-year working-for-myself anniversary! KL Congrats! [2:27] SWB Thank you. It has been pretty great for me. I think that it’s definitely something that has suited me. But—you know—what’s really different about it compared to somebody like Sarah is that I don’t feel like I’ve taken such massive shifts. I feel like my changes have been a little more bit by bit over time. I wasn’t in a big, fancy, fully catered office with free haircuts and massages; [KL laughs] I was working at an agency with 40 people, which means I was working a lot with clients. And so my shift from working with clients at an agency to working for myself with clients was smaller. And the kind of work was similar. But I do think that over the past seven years, I’ve made more and more of those little incremental shifts, or kind of mini-pivots or whatever you want to call them, where I do feel like at this point my work has evolved so much—both in the kinds of clients I work with, the complexity of the projects, I definitely charge more [KL laughs]—lots of—lots of good stuff. KL [laughing] Yep! SWB But also just the makeup of my days. My day is not mostly clients, it’s—maybe that’s a third of my time. And a lot of my time is spent on things like speaking at events, writing books, doing workshops and more facilitation versus sitting down and doing the work for clients. And—you know—also running this podcast, which does take a bunch of time. And maybe someday we’ll make a bunch of money. And so I feel like on the one hand, I have quote-unquote the same business I had seven years ago, and then on the other hand, on a day-to-day basis it looks really different. And my goals have changed too. That’s one of the things I think is really interesting talking to somebody like Sarah is hearing a really different perspective on leaving a traditional kind of job and moving into something else. KL Yeah, completely. And I mean to me, and I think a lot of people, the idea of going solo and leaving the perceived—you know—quote unquote safety of a traditional job, has seemed kind of scary. I mean, when you initially did that, what did that sort of first leap look like? Did you do anything specific to prepare—you know—financially, [laughs] emotionally, mentally? SWB Yeah, so—you know—I think about something Cindy Gallop said to us in her interview a couple of episodes ago where she said that in—in a lot of ways, relying on another company to take care of you is the riskiest thing you can do, and that relying on yourself, in some ways, is less risky. And I think that that was something I kind of had come to on my own back then, because I felt like the company I was at—you know—didn’t value me for the reasons that I wanted to be valued. I mean I think that they did try to value me because I was doing a lot for them and they did recognize that, but it wasn’t in the way that I wanted and it wasn’t for the kind of work I wanted necessarily. And so I felt like looking out for myself was in some ways going to be better for me. What I did, though, to prepare for leaving, I did—you know—I had some savings, which was great. At the time, one of the things that was really helpful was that my expenses were very low. My husband was in graduate school, which means that he made almost no money. He was a teaching assistant while he was in graduate school, so he had a very small stipend. So it wasn’t as if I could rely on his income, but what it did mean is that we had chosen to rent a little mini-house behind a house in a neighborhood that was affordable near the university. And so we had a low rent and we didn’t have a lot of financial commitments—we didn’t have kids, we didn’t have new cars with payments or anything like that, because we had been kind of set up to live a lifestyle that made sense for a graduate student, even though I had a real job with a substantial income. So, that made it so that the—it wasn’t that I had this huge—you know—amount of financial cushion, but it did mean that the amount of money I needed to not get evicted and to keep the lights on wasn’t that high. So, one of the things that I did was I set some goals around finances. I really wanted to—I wanted to meet or exceed the income I had been making at the agency, not just because I wanted to have the same amount of money, but also because I wanted to feel like it was a way of proving to myself and maybe to the world that what I wanted to do was a real and legitimate thing that was worth paying for, and that I didn’t have to do it on somebody else’s terms. But I also thought about, “what is the minimum amount of money that I need on a monthly basis to not have life fall apart?” And when I realized that it just wasn’t that much, I thought, you know, I can scrape that together. If things are lean here and there, I can scrape that together. And that gave me a lot of confidence, so that was helpful. The other thing that I did is I knew that the company I was leaving really relied on me and so—they were going through a time of flux also, so I knew that they could really use my help for longer. So, what I did was I proposed to them that I would contract with them for a couple of months—I think three months or so I contracted with them—and so that gave me some time to kind of wean off of having that salary. And it gave them some time to get over me leaving and to have a—you know—different plan in place. And during that time I had that consistent money coming in from them, I did more of that reaching out to people in my network. And I knew people who worked at different agencies or different companies who I had maybe worked with in the past, and so they knew that it was helpful to work with somebody like me. And none of their companies had content strategy teams at the time, and so they would often bring me in and I was like the first content strategist they’d worked with on a project [laughing]. All of them now have whole content strategy departments, so I feel like they’ve kind of gotten the memo—and I don’t want to take sole credit for that by any means, that’s something that’s sort of shifted in a lot of people’s industries in general. But I think what that was really helpful, too, was that I looked at, “who do I know who is out there working in other companies I’d like to work with who has experience and can speak to the fact that if you have somebody with this skillset working on a project, you can do much better work, you can get things done much more effectively?” [8:12] KL Yeah. That’s so smart that you did that. And just when you think about leaving something and trying something new, it’s—you know—I think you are focused on, what does that actual moment look like when I stop doing the old thing and start doing the new thing? And the smart thing is to actually do a lot of prep work before that and kind of take stock of where you’re working, who you’re working with, and figure out where those avenues can lead to, where they can develop into something for your new project and, I don’t know, I think that… you know, that’s really helpful to hear. SWB Yeah, I mean I don’t know that I was that planned about it, [laughs & KL laughs] but I definitely did try to do that. And I also—I’m trying to be, you know, pretty honest about some of the financial pieces of it. Because I talk to people who are often, you know, wanting to take a risk like this and the risks for them might look totally different. And I never want to, you know, lie about that, or make it seem like that’s not a big financial risk. I didn’t—like I said—I didn’t have this big cushion, but I did have relatively low risk at the time, and that’s not going to be true if somebody has, let’s say, small kids at home, or already has a mortgage, and all of your calculations have to look different. And I think that one of the things that I hear a lot of is this sort of idea that, “just jump in, do what you love, take the leap!” without talking about how often people who do that successfully had like—I don’t know—family money or a spouse with a high, stable income or whatever, right? All of these other things that made that possible for them. And so I just think it’s a disservice to not be honest about those things. KL Yeah, it totally is. And I’ve talked about this before—I took a pay cut when I left National Geographic to come to A Book Apart, and I wouldn’t have been able to do that if I hadn’t already been established in my career, if I hadn’t already—you know—moved up the management ladder and was making a certain salary that had allowed me to save. I was also partnered with someone who had a full-time job and who we had a little bit of a buffer, so I could do that and make a change. SWB So, what was it about that opportunity at A Book Apart that made you want it so badly you were willing to take a pay cut for it? Because working at a small company, it is riskier—you know—you said you got paid substantially less, there are not fancy offices, there are no free haircuts at A Book Apart. [10:38] KL [laughing] No, not yet. SWB What made that feel worth it for you? KL I mean, I knew it was going to be a huge opportunity and—you know—I was looking for a new challenge and that it certainly was. I knew I was going to be able to work with a whole new community of people and, you know, people doing work that I really admired and that I really wanted to be involved in. And I knew I’d be able to grow in a way that I hadn’t really been able to grow before. I was going to be able to grow my skill set, which was exciting, but also scary. SWB What do you mean? What were some of the things that you feel like you saw in that role that you were like “ooh yeah, I want to be able to do that”? KL I saw a chance to be a part of building something that was more or less kind of in its—you know—beginning phases. And that was super excitin…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    On a Journey to Happiness with Keah Brown Oct 23, 2018
    Show notes

    It’s a rough year after a rough year after…a rough year. Writer, journalist, and #disabledandcute creator Keah Brown reminds us to celebrate our wins and find joy anyway.

    Keah has written for publications like Harper’s Bazaar, Teen Vogue, Essence, Catapult, Lenny Letter, The Rumpus, and Glamour. She also has cerebral palsy—and one day in 2017, she was feeling cute. So she posted a photo of herself with the hashtag #disabledandcute, and boom: she started a movement.

    Since then, she’s signed her first book deal, written about everything from Lilliam Rivera to Solange, and generally taken the world by storm. Plus, Roxane Gay thinks she’s great. What more is there to say?

    > We spend so much time with disability narratives either being used to prop up an able-bodied character, or to die for the emotional turmoil of an able-bodied character. And I’m just like, nope. I live at the end of this book, and I’m going to keep living, and you’re going to see more of me, because I’m not going anywhere.
    > —Keah Brown, writer and #disabledandcute creator

    Keah tells us all about:

    • Starting the #disabledandcute movement Her Teen Vogue cover story on
      disabled representation in fashion
    • Being named to The Root 100 list of most influential African-Americans
    • Writing for Roxane Gay’s Unruly Bodies series
    • The double-edged sword of being the “go-to disability writer”
    • Working on her first essay collection, The Pretty One, due out from Atria Books next fall
    • Relying on Demi Lovato, Paramore, and her friends to get through the hard parts

    Plus:

    • Katel tells us all about her workshop with last week’s guest, Sonalee Rashatwar
    • Sara has a very attractive knee surgeon
    • Don’t miss Milena Paulina’s gorgeous photos of fat bodies

    Sponsors

    This episode of NYG is brought to you by:

    Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more.

    Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month.

    Away makes stylish, high-quality luggage with amazing built-in features—like a laundry bag and USB charger. Use code NYG to save $20 today at awaytravel.com/nyg.


    Pleasure is Virtuous with Sonalee Rashatwar Oct 16, 2018
    Show notes

    Body-positivity sure seems popular right now—but that conversation is often limited to celebrating slightly larger bodies and slightly broader sizing options. Our guest today challenges those ideas—ands helps us understand what real liberation would look like. Sonalee Rashatwar is a fat, queer, non-binary therapist, community organizer, and donut queen based in Philly. Katel first found out about her as @thefatsextherapist on Instagram, where she posts about body image, fat positivity, and delicious food. > Pleasure is very virtuous. We need food pleasure and sexual pleasure to survive this capitalist nightmare. And it’s okay. I give you permission.>> —Sonalee Rashatwar , The Fat Sex Therapist Sonalee provides counseling to people navigating sexual trauma, body image issues, racial or immigrant identity issues, and South Asian family systems, and she holds workshops on topics like unlearning body image issues. Follow Sonalee: Instagram | Twitter We talk about: Reclaiming slurs that have been used against you—with a shout out to Jes Baker’s new book, Landwhale Being featured on Breitbart for saying that “thinness is a white supremacist beauty ideal” while speaking at the University of Vermont Expanding our idea of body image issues “beyond body size, eating disorders, and self esteem” using Megan J. Smith’s Repeal Hyde Art Project as a parallel Decolonizing sex and pleasure Triaging trauma responses during this seemingly endless sexual-assault-filled news cycle Getting hyped about “boring self care” Plus: Katel looks great in a $7 metallic jumpsuit Sara’s done eating $14 airport chicken wraps 7–11 sells quinoa? It’s okay to skip the boozie slushies (unless that’s your jam—no judgement!) Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher When I want to look like I have it all together, I look to Harvest. Harvest makes awesome software that helps me track my time, manage schedules, and send invoices. I love how easy it is to use on the desktop or on my phone and it’s perfect for freelancers, agencies, or anybody who needs to manage projects and client work. So, go to getharvest.com to try it for free and if you’re ready for a paid account, use code “noyougo” to get 50% off your first month. That’s getharvest.com, code “noyougo.” [intro music plays for 12 seconds] Katel LeDû Hey everyone, I’m Katel. SWB And I’m Sara! KL And you’re listening to No, You Go, the show about building satisfying careers and businesses— SWB —getting free of toxic bullshit— KL —and living your best feminist life at work. SWB Hell yeah it is! Katel, who is on the show today? KL Our guest is Sonalee Rashatwar, aka “The Fat Sex Therapist.” We’re going to ask her just how she got that name and why her work as a fat, queer sex therapist is more important now than ever. Before we get to our interview with Sonalee, Sara, you are about to get surgery. SWB Uhh yes, I am about to get surgery. I’m finally getting my torn ACL fixed, and so by the time this episode comes out, I’ll actually be back home recovering. So, that means that I’ve been spending the last few days really trying to tie up some loose ends. So, I actually just got back from my last business trip for a while. I was in Dallas. KL Uh yee-haw, that sounds like a perfect way to tie things up. SWB You know, actually it was perfect, and I’m going to tell you why. So—okay, so I’m in Dallas, right? And I was speaking at this conference and then I get back to the airport, I’m on my way home and I’d been wearing these heels to speak in and I should have changed out of them earlier and I didn’t, so my feet are killing me. I’m in the security line, the security line is really long. And then there is a canine unit there that’s checking people, sniffing for drugs, right? I’m like, “okay great.” So, now there’s also this agent there who is barking orders at people—where to stand, “no, stop, no, wait,” you know? And like, “take everything out of your hands, you can’t have your phone in your hands, but you need your boarding pass in your hands, but oh your boarding pass is your phone, so okay you can have your phone in your hand now.” And he was just gruff, you know how this is, right? KL Yeah. SWB So, he’s gruff and barking orders and it’s like, “okay, so you need to walk by the dog, but not too fast. Make sure your bag is out of the way so it’s not going to hit the dog in the head.” It was this whole thing, right? Okay, so we go through that, it takes forever. And so then finally I get to the other end of security and it’s like 5pm, I’m not going to get home until like 9, and I am a human person who likes to usually eat food at some point between 5 and 9. And I’m like, okay, I’m in Dallas. It’s a massive hub, right? So I’m like, there’s going to be some options. I can get some food to go, no problem. This terminal I happen to be in was—there were a few restaurant restaurants where I could sit down there, but I didn’t have time for that. And then the to-go options, there was almost nothing. Part of it was under construction. And so I look around and quickly realize that my best to-go food option, my best to-go food option—is an airport 7-Eleven that also sells salads and wraps. [3:23] KL Wow, wow, wow, wow. SWB And I—so, I pick up my salad and then I get on the plane, right? And then the plane is just jammed full and there’s no room for people’s bags, and then we’re in the air and the woman sitting next to me accidentally spills her glass of water all over my laptop keyboard. And she’s apologizing profusely. I’m not even mad at her, but I’m just like, “I just need napkins,” right? [KL laughs quietly] And so—you know—I’m sitting on this plane and I’m just freaking miserable and I finally pull out my 7-Eleven salad. [KL laughs] And I start eating the salad and then I’m like, you know what? This salad is actually kind of okay. It seemed really freshly made, it was full of kale and quinoa, and—you know—nothing was actually wrong, right? I have a decent seat, I have food to eat, I just came from a paid speaking gig, I made it through security without being harassed or profiled. There’s lots of things that weren’t super fun about it, but I am fine. The problem is just that I am done. I am done with being in airports and I am done with looking at sad $14 chicken wraps. I am just done. And so that’s actually why that was the best trip, because the good news is that I am literally done, right? I looked around and I thought, “I don’t want to have to do this,” and then I realized [laughing] I don’t for a while, because I don’t have to go anywhere! [KL laughs] KL That’s right. I mean, that is good. And let me just say that I am shocked and encouraged that 7-Eleven has a salad that not only has kale, but also quinoa in it. Mental note for the next time. SWB I mean, I make no promises about future 7-Eleven salads. [KL laughs] KL That’s fair, that’s fair. But you know, that does make me think of, you know, when I left my last job to—to come to A Book Apart, it was this time where I was all of a sudden seeing this concrete finish line in sight, and I was starting to deprioritize some of the stuff I was doing at Nat Geo. And because I had one foot out the door and I was excited about this new thing that I was going to do, this thing that was coming up, and I was starting to plan for that and think about it. But you kind of can’t really do all of those things at once, so you have to wrap up some loose ends and—so you can get excited about that, or so that you can take a break and—you know—move onto the next thing. So, I totally get that. [5:46] SWB Yeah and then, you know, that’s the thing about my life, is that the way that my work life is set up—or the way I should say that I have set up my work life—is that I don’t really have those kinds of clean starts and stops. Projects come and go, but I don’t have any moments where I can be like, “oh, I used to work at x place and now I work at y place” because I haven’t worked anywhere except or myself for like seven years, and so, you know, during that time it’s like my work has changed dramatically in terms of the types of projects I do or how my days actually look, but there aren’t a lot of finite moments like that where I feel like “okay, done with x, time to move on.” And instead what I tend to do is I tend to add a new thing in, and then at some point if the new thing starts taking up more of my time—like speaking, for example—then I have to start doing less of something else in order to make that happen. But it tends to be kind of gradual, and it tends to feel like a lot of juggling in the moment. KL I know I run into challenges with this because my ongoing day-to-day doesn’t really have these sort of clean boundaries, you know. Yes, I’m running this business, but I’m doing this podcast as a—you know—as a side project right now, and so I always think there’s time and space for more new things [laughing] as they come along and I think it’s really easy to think that, even though it might not be true. SWB Yeah, so I’m kind of looking forward to having a little bit of time after surgery, even though I need to be recovering and that’s not necessarily fun purely. [KL laughs] But—but I like that it’s almost giving me a little bit more of a concrete boundary and the ability to kind of reflect back on what I’ve been spending my time on and then look forward at what I want to be spending my time on. Because I have been running really fast this year. Obviously, we launched the podcast earlier this year and it’s a lot of work to get this off the ground and it’s—you know—it’s really, really great, but it is…it took a lot of time. And then I think about in the past six months, like just six months since I tore my ACL and put off surgery because I had too many things already scheduled. Okay, I looked at my calendar and I actually wrote down where are all the places that I have been, and I’m going to run through them for you real fast. Okay, so first up right after I tore it—I tore it at the beginning of March—right after I tore it, I went to Australia. Right after I got back from Australia, my grandmother died, which was not unexpected, but still tough. And then I turned around and immediately flew to Munich for that to spend a few days with my family and go to the memorial, which was really important to me. So then after that, I had trips to Minneapolis, Paris, Boston, Vancouver British Columbia, and before and after Vancouver I actually made stops in Oregon for various family events. And then I went to Madison, Wisconsin. I went to San Francisco. I went to England. I went to Amsterdam. I went to Atlanta. And then now Dallas. [8:30] KL [laughing] Sara, that’s so much! SWB It is so much! And I didn’t quite realize how much it was until I sat down and wrote that list! And when I realized I needed to have this surgery, but that I had a lot of things scheduled that was going to make it hard to slot it in anywhere, I actually packed my schedule even tighter, so that I could get a lot done before the surgery and then not have to do anything. So, now I have a calendar that is very open. I have to do things like physical therapy. And that is giving me a chance to think about my work life in a little bit more of a before and after kind of way. So, I can think about it like, “what do I want my work life to look like after Thanksgiving when I’m picking up steam again? Where do I want that steam to be going?” You know? KL You know, I think this is great. And it’s—for me, I know it’s hard to run a business and to work for yourself and put boundaries around time that you need for yourself to recoup from surgery or—you know—just take a rest or slow things down. And I feel like even though we are always checking in with each other about how we’re doing and how much we’re doing and how we’re feeling about everything, nothing really ever feels done, and it always feels like we could be doing more and I think it’s really tough to navigate that. SWB Yeah and I think I also have realized that I tend to be a little bit scared of being idle. You know, I grew up feeling like I needed to kind of hustle and always be productive, both because I knew—you know—we didn’t have a lot of money, and I knew I needed to do well in school to get a scholarship, so that I could really afford to go to college. I knew that I also needed to have a job so that I could have a shitty car so that I could get out of the town I hated living in and also have enough money to buy some cigarettes and smoke with my friends. [KL laughs] But—you know—I definitely always felt this need to kind of like, make sure that I was being productive and taking care of things, right? And part of it is that we never had any money—my family never had any money. I remember my mom working so hard pursuing this dream that she had of going to graduate school, getting her PHD—she’s a biochemist now—and so we spent actually a bunch of my childhood with her in graduate school and us living off of her $12,000-a-year stipend as a researcher. And that was basically the money we supported the family with. And so—this was only in the ‘90s, this wasn’t that long ago. $12,000 was not very much money. [10:53] KL Yeah. SWB And so I think some of that history means that I’m used to not giving myself a lot of breaks because I’m used to seeing that modeled around me, but also because I just like to work. I do fundamentally really enjoy it, but being kind of full-speed all the time doesn’t really give you time to reflect or evolve, or to focus on how you want to evolve. And so I’m really looking forward to kind of having this season where I can clear out some headspace and—you know—break out of some of the cycles or patterns that are maybe keeping me stuck in one way of looking at my work and preventing me from really thinking clearly about what I want next. KL Yeah, this makes me think of hearing Sonalee talk about recognizing thought patterns we have—you know—around biases, or race, or body, and unlearning the ones that are not really healthy for us or not helping us succeed. And so maybe some of this is about unlearning beliefs about productivity and idleness. SWB Yes! I absolutely want to think more about that, and I think there’s a lot in that interview that we should be thinking about. So, why don’t we get to it? [music fades in, plays for five seconds, and fades out] Career Chat with Shopify SWB So, you know we love to talk about careers here on NYG—and so do our friends at Shopify. This week, they’ve sent us a tip from Daniella Niyonkuru, a production engineer. And—sidebar—I just watched a talk by Daniella called “How Tech Almost Missed Out On Me,” which is such a freaking awesome sentiment. So today, Daniella has three lessons she learned as someone entering tech from an underrepresented background. Let’s hear them! Daniella Niyonkuru First, you should always take chances on the things you want to achieve. I’m currently working in a role that I almost didn’t apply for because I felt like I didn’t tick every box I needed to in the position. You don’t have to be absolutely perfect at what you’re aiming for, so don’t sell yourself short. Second, don’t be afraid to raise your hand. Your opinions are valid. It’s important to find your own safe spaces to practice sharing your ideas. You’ll hone this skill as you go. And lastly, looks, age, race, and gender are not a burden, and these things will never prevent my code from running—but syntax errors will. SWB Daniella’s story is super inspiring. So, if you want to take a chance on something new and work alongside amazing people li…

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    I Make Things Change with Cindy Gallop Oct 09, 2018
    Show notes

    Today’s interview might not be safe for work—but Cindy Gallop thinks it should be. She joins us to talk about why we all need to be a lot better at talking about sex, what it’s like to found and scale a sex tech company, and why working for yourself is the best thing you can do. Cindy is the founder and CEO of Make Love Not Porn, a social sex site that wants to “make it easier to talk about sex for everyone in the world,” and a former advertising executive who’s spent years demanding diversity in companies and on stages. We talk with her about building her business despite an industry that’s way too anxious about funding sex tech, why she doesn’t rely on rational arguments about diversity anymore, and how she intends to build the “sex tech full stack” and bring about world peace. Yes, world peace. > Fear of what other people will think is the single most paralyzing dynamic in business and in life. You will never own the future if you care what other people think. And so I began doing what I tell other entrepreneurs to do, which is when you have a truly world-changing startup, you have to change the world to fit it, not the other way around… If reality tells me that I cannot grow Make Love Not Porn the way I want to, then I am going to change reality.>> —Cindy Gallop, founder and CEO, Make Love Not Porn We talk about: Launching Make Love Not Porn in 2009 with her infamous TED talk The challenges of funding and scaling Make Love Not Porn Creating and raising money for All The Sky Holdings to fund sex tech companies and the infrastructure they need to operate How to change the “closed loop of white guys talking to white guys about other white guys” that’s at the top of every company Why we should talk about our sexual values as much as we talk about values like manners, work ethic, and accountability Follow Cindy: Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn Also in this episode Cleaning out the undie drawer, buying nice lingerie, and what it’s like to have our very personal lives and our professional lives meet The endless bra ads on Instagram (and how many of them make you feel like you have a problem body Saying one more fuck yeah to Christine Blasey Ford, and the incredible effort she and so many survivors of sexual violence have made to share their stories—or just keep surviving—during the past few weeks Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher Do you ever need to track your time? Then you should check out Harvest, a great tool I’ve been using for years to help me manage projects, budgets, and invoices. They have all kinds of features I hadn’t even heard of, like the ability to start a timer on your desktop with the Mac app and then stop it on your way home from the iPhone app. It’s super easy, it has options designed for both indie freelancers and big teams, and best of all, No, You Go listeners can save 50% off their first month. So try it for free at getharvest.com, and then use code “noyougo” to get that sweet 50% discount. That’s getharvest.com, code “noyougo.” [intro music plays for 12 seconds] SWB Hey everyone, I’m Sara! Katel LeDû And I’m Katel. SWB And you’re listening to No, You Go—the show about building satisfying careers and businesses— KL —getting free of toxic bullshit— SWB —and living your best feminist life at work. KL [singing] Let’s talk about sex, baby. SWB Go ooooon. [KL laughs] KL All right. Well, I will not continue singing, but today’s show really is about sex. Sex tech! We got to talk with Cindy Gallop, who is the founder and CEO of an organization called Make Love Not Porn. And she’s an outspoken advocate for equality in advertising in tech. SWB Cindy’s interview is so fucking great, I think you’re going to be super interested in what she’s doing with Make Love Not Porn, and you should prepare yourselves because she’s also just extremely outspoken about not just equality, but basically everything. But before we get to Cindy: Katel, how’s your week going? KL It’s good, you know, last weekend I was actually going through some clothes. I was changing out some summer stuff for some more cozy fall stuff and getting that into rotation, and I don’t really know if I can even talk about this on the show, or if I should, but I was going through my underwear drawer throwing out some older stuff and kind of wishing I had some nicer lingerie? SWB Ugh, we’ve all been there, huh? Yeah—you know—I think you should definitely do that. And I also totally get it though. It feels a little personal to talk about the undies on the show. I don’t know, we get personal a lot on this show, but there’s something about drawing attention to undergarments that feels a little bit like—I don’t know—like is somebody going to take that as an invitation to sexualize you or talk about your body? And it’s like, no, I just want to talk about my underwear drawer for a second. KL Yeah, exactly, like we—there’s just so much weirdness around that, and I think it’s something that I definitely, and women in general, just normally edit. And I feel that even more so putting myself into very visible spaces like a weekly podcast. And it just made me think a lot about how women feel so much pressure to manage and curate all these different aspects about ourselves to kind of edit what we share and what we make visible or not. [2:50] SWB Yeah, I’ve been feeling a bit of that too, and I guess in some ways I’ve been trying to figure out, how do I do less of it? How do I let myself be more of myself in more places? And that’s not to say that I want to bring up my lingerie in a business meeting—because I don’t, thank you—but I am trying to be okay with the idea that we can open up about kind of whatever we want on the show, which is sort of this one aspect of us that’s very, very public, and that means that sometimes people who are listening to the show might also be the person who sees me at a conference or is across the room from me in a business meeting, and they might actually know something about my bra or my period or whatever. And that’s fine, I still deserve to be in that room and have that professional conversation too. KL Yeah absolutely, and be respected, and have all of that. SWB Well anyway, the crucial question here is… what are you going to be shopping for when you go out to buy those new undies? KL Well, I was actually thinking about that, and I don’t even know if I know really where to start, but I sure do get a lot of underwear ads on Instagram. SWB Oh my god, yes—so many underwear ads. It seems like—is there like—is every other person in the world starting a new underwear company right now? [KL laughs] KL I mean it feels like it! SWB So, the thing is—okay, I have very mixed feelings about this. Like on the one hand, I’m really into the fact that there are a lot more options that are starting to be out there for women’s clothing, including a lot more sizes—so a lot wider range of sizes for people—a lot more different kinds of options, a lot of stuff where there’s more emphasis on sort of like where things are being made or how they’re being made or whether it’s eco friendly. And all of that is great. I love that there is a goal also to have more comfortable bras. I think that that’s been a big push the last couple of years. Buuuut! Even if they’re doing body positive advertising, even if they’re showing people with a range of different skin tones, and people in a range of different ages—which is all great and I see more of that happening—it’s also just like… a lot. Like a lot of my experience with the internet is just messages about stuff I should buy to fix my “problem body.” [KL laughs] That’s—[laughing] that’s a term that this woman—actually she’s based here in Philly—Lauren Hallden started talking about: that she was feeling so inundated in her feed with messages about her body being wrong and needing to be fixed in some way—and of course, fixed with products—that she created this whole site about fixing your problem body as kind of a joke. And I think about that a lot—right? So much of this advertising is really geared at fixing what is a problem with you. [5:21] KL Yeah, exactly. And that that whole idea of, you know, of a body being problematic is such a construct anyway. I mean—I don’t know—I started following @yrfatfriend on Instagram, she just joined I think a week or two ago, and it’s amazing—please go follow her. And she put a post up the other day—it was a post about an ad for a weird shaper kind of thing, and there was just a line in one—in the comment that she made that was—that has just stuck with me, and it said, “corporations will not save us.” SWB Yeah, I mean she was talking about the way that this shaper was designed to make you look smaller and that they were using that as sort of being a message about body positivity, because they were showing larger women in the ad. But a product that makes larger women look smaller was from her perspective not the solution, right? Like, that’s not the dream we’re going for here. And—you know—I think a lot about that though, right? Like this idea that corporations will not save us. I was thinking about that when we were talking to Cindy. You know, she comes from an advertising background, and I think you’ll hear in the interview, she has kind of a little bit more of a pro-market take than some of us might have. She’s pretty clear about it. She wants to make a fuck-ton of money from what she sees as being ethical, pro woman sex tech. And I’m like “okay, fuck yeah! Show me real bodies, pay sex workers, promote women, get rich, sounds great.” But on the other hand, I do think it’s important to remember that, right? Corporations will not save us, even if they’re not only being run by white guys. KL Yeah, I loved Cindy’s perspective and I want you all to hear her, she’s really inspiring. But I also want us to keep questioning what we’re building and buying. [music] Interview: Cindy Gallop SWB Cindy Gallop is a force. She’s the founder and CEO of Make Love, Not Porn, a social sex site—something we definitely want to ask her more about—and she’s an outspoken advocate for equality in fields like advertising and tech. In fact, she actually first came to my attention a few years ago when I saw her online lambasting events that had all male lineups. So, we’ve invited her here today to talk about how she built her business, how she built her personal brand, why sex tech really matters right now, and what it’s like to get on stage and say exactly what she thinks. So, Cindy, welcome to No, You Go. Cindy Gallop Thank you, thrilled to be here. SWB First up, can you tell us more about Make Love Not Porn? What is it? [7:38] CG Sure! So, I guess in the first instance, I should say Make Love Not Porn is a complete and total accident, because I never consciously, intentionally set out to do what I am now doing. I date younger men who tend to be men in their twenties, and about ten or eleven years ago, I began realizing through my direct personal experience dating younger men that I was encountering what happens when two things converge. And I stress the dual convergence because most people think it’s only one. I realized that I was experiencing what happens when today’s total freedom of access to porn online meets our society’s equally total reluctance to talk openly and honestly about sex. When those two dynamics converge, porn becomes by default sex education, in not a good way. So, I found myself encountering a number of sexual behavioral means in bed—I went “woah! I know where that’s coming from.” I thought, “gosh, if I’m experiencing this, other people must be as well.” I didn’t know that at the time because ten or eleven years ago, no one was talking about this, no one was writing about it, and being a naturally action-oriented person, I decided I wanted to do something about it. So, nine years ago, I put up—with no money—this tiny, clunky website at makelovenotporn.com, which was myth versus reality—porn world versus real world. I launched at Ted in 2009 and became the only Ted speaker to say the words “come on my face” on the Ted stage six times in succession. The talk went viral instantly as a result and it drove this extraordinary global response to my tiny website that I had never anticipated. And I realized, I’d uncovered a huge global social issue. So, I felt a responsibility to take Make Love Not Porn forwards in a way that would make it much more far reaching, helpful and effective. And I also saw an opportunity to do something I believe in very strongly, which is that the future of business is doing good and making money simultaneously. So, I saw an opportunity to create a big business solution to this huge, untapped, global social need. And I use the word “big” advisedly because even then back in 2009 at concept stage, I knew that if I wanted to counter the global impact of porn as default sex ed, I was going to have to come up with something that at least had the potential one day to be just as mass, just as mainstream, and just as all-pervasive in society as porn currently is. So, I was thinking big right from the get-go. So, what I decided to do was—I always emphasize that Make Love Not Porn is not anti-porn because the issue isn’t porn. The issue is that we don’t talk about sex in the real world. If we did—amongst a whole host of other benefits—people would then bring a real-world mindset to the viewing of what is simply manufactured entertainment. [10:31] Our tagline at Make Love Not Porn is “pro sex, pro porn, pro knowing the difference.” And our mission is one thing only, which is to help make it easier for everybody in the world to talk openly and honestly about sex. Talk about sex in the public domain, and by that I mean, parents to children, teachers to schools, everyone to everyone. And even more importantly, talk about sex openly and honestly privately in your intimate relationships. And so, given this mission of “talk about it,” I decided to take every dynamic in social media and apply them to this one area that no other social network or platform will ever do in order to socialize sex and to make real-world sex, and talking about it, socially acceptable, and therefore ultimately just as socially shareable as anything else we share on Facebook, Tumblr, Twitter, Instagram. So, five and a half years ago, my team and I launched makelovenotporn.tv, which is an entirely user-generated, crowd-sourced video sharing platform that celebrates real-world sex. So, anyone from anywhere in the world can submit to us videos of themselves having real-world sex, but we are very clear what we mean by this. We are not porn. We are not amateur. We’re building a whole new category on the internet that has never previously existed—social sex. So, our competition isn’t porn, it’s Facebook and YouTube. Or rather, it would be if Facebook and YouTube allowed you to socially, sexually self express and self identify, which they don’t. So, social sex videos on Make Love, Not Porn are not about performing for the camera, they’re just about doing what you do on every other social platform—capturing what goes on in the real world—as it happens spontaneously—in all its funny, messy, glorious, silly, beautiful, ridiculous, comical, awkward humorous. We curate to make sure of that. We—our curators watch every single video from beginning to end. We do not publish them unless they’re real and we have a revenue-sharing business model. So, part of the sharing economy like Uber and Airbnb—you pay to rent and stream social sex videos and then half that income goes to our contributors, or as we call them, our Make…

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    Getting Personal with Nicole Chung Oct 02, 2018
    Show notes

    What do you share with the world—and what do you hold back? How do you talk about family secrets or childhood trauma with strangers? And what happens when you bring more of your most personal experiences to your work? This week, we go deep on the power of getting personal—and the choices we have to make along the way. Before we start, Sara and Katel break some bad news: Jenn’s not here today, and it’s looking like she won’t be able to join us for the rest of the season. We’re sending some big hugs her way, but we have so much to talk about right now, we’re gonna keep on going. Our guest today is the incredibly kind, talented, and just plain fucking rad writer and editor Nicole Chung. She’s the author of the new memoir, All You Can Ever Know—which is on sale T O D A Y (ugh just buy it already). It chronicles her story of transracial adoption, growing up in a white family in small-town Oregon, and finding her birth family while starting to raise her own children. Reading it made us laugh and cry and fall even more in love with Nicole. In addition to being an author, Nicole is also the editor-in-chief of Catapult, a literary magazine, and the former managing editor of The Toast, everyone’s favorite weird-funny-feminist site. We had so much to talk with her about. Follow Nicole : Twitter | Insta > It was difficult to start sharing such personal stories about my family and about adoption and about racism that I’d experienced. And it’s not necessarily that I needed someone externally to validate them or to say, “this is legitimate, this really happened, this is important,” but I think just a little human kindness and, like, honestly went a very, very long way. The Toast was a fantastic community… Every time I wrote something there—I mean, both the goofy stuff like “If John Cho Were Your Boyfriend” and the more serious pieces on race or adoption or family—the response was overwhelmingly positive and supportive, and it was just really a privilege and a honor to get to edit and publish and write for that community at The Toast. I think it did make me braver.> —Nicole Chung, author, All You Can Ever Know Links from the interview Nicole’s longread about writing while grieving The long history of Oregon’s racist exclusion laws Love for Nicole’s editor, Julie Buntin at Catapult Nicole’s writing at The Toast, including If John Cho Were Your Boyfriend All You Can Ever Know, on sale now Also in this episode Chatting with Nicole got us thinking a lot about what it means to share your story with the world—in your writing, in a talk, or, say…on a podcast. So we dive into some of our own stories, and the choices we’ve made to tell—or not tell—them in our work. > You spend a long time purposefully not talking about it and reminding yourself to push it down, push it down, push it down that when it all comes back up and you’re purposefully sharing it, that feels weird.> —Sara We touch on: Our most recent newsletter, where Katel talks about being sexually harassed by a boss. The conflict between wanting to speak your truth, but finding it exhausting. As Emma Gray writes, “I am so tired of women having to mine their pain to convince men of their humanity.” Sara telling hundreds of strangers that she was sexually abused—in the middle of a design conference. Lisa Maria Martin’s great post on keeping politics out of your talk. Plus, did you know you can listen to books? Katel discovers the joy of audiobooks with Anne Helen Petersen’s Too Fat, Too Slutty, Too Loud: The Rise and Reign of the Unruly Woman. Meanwhile, Sara shares what she’s planning to read in her slippers this fall: Rebecca Traister’s new book, Good and Mad: The Revolutionary Power of Women’s Anger, also out today! Dope Queen Phoebe Robinson’s new essay collection, Everything’s Trash But It’s OK, coming out later this month. Michelle Obama’s memoir, Becoming, due out in November. Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Transcript [Ad spot] Sara Wachter-Boettcher NYG is sponsored by Harvest, the tool I use to track time, manage projects and send invoices. You can even integrate your Harvest account with accounting software like Xero or QuickBooks. I’ve got to get that set up! Try Harvest for free at getharvest.com and if you like it half as much as I do, then use code NOYOUGO when you upgrade. That will get you 50% off your first paid month. That’s getharvest.com, code NOYOUGO. [intro music plays for twelve seconds] Katel LeDû Welcome to NYG, I’m Katel LeDû. SWB I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher, and you probably noticed that Jenn’s not here today. And unfortunately it looks like she’s probably not going to join us for the rest of the season. She’s taking some time off from the podcast—as you know, she’s got a lot going on. But there’s just so much we still want to be talking about this fall. There’s political stuff—there’s the midterm elections, all the bullshit happening in the Supreme Court—and there’s also work stuff. Like me and Katel, we have started research for a little side hustle that we are hyped to start talking about with all of you. KL Plus I feel like we’re kind of getting good at this whole podcast thing. And we have so many rad people we still want to interview, so we’re going to keep going. Starting with today’s guest, Nicole Chung. She’s the author of the new memoir out now: _All You Can Ever Know_—about being adopted into a white family, raised in rural Oregon, and then deciding to find her birth family as an adult. We tried to keep cool, but we were total fan girls. SWB Talking to Nicole about writing a memoir just got me thinking a lot about my own writing. Especially—how I write about, and when I write about, personal stories. And I’ve done a little bit of that and I know Katel, you have too. In our last newsletter, you wrote about being sexually harassed by your boss and you told this story that really stuck with me where you just talked about him coming into your office and telling you how sexy it was that you spoke French and trying to get you to say something in French to him, which is all super gross and creepy. But I’m really curious—it was powerful for me to hear the specifics of what had happened and to sort of be able to see myself in that place with you and really feel for you there. And I’m wondering what it was like for you to write about it in that specific of a way? KL Gosh, I—it was definitely hard and also great I think, in a way. I remember writing the first draft and it was like three pages long because I—all of a sudden I just was remembering it and I hadn’t thought about that whole experience in a while. And all of a sudden I just was word vomiting out every, single detail and every aspect. And then—you know—I had to go through and kind of—I did a few second and third drafts thinking about what exactly I wanted to share and how I wanted to tell that story and—you know—make sure I was still kind of protecting myself. [2:44] SWB That’s something that’s hard to sort out—right? KL Yeah. SWB Like how much do you want to talk about your history and when and why you’re doing it. I think about this when it comes to bringing up my history with sexual abuse, which is something I’ve done a lot. I’ve mentioned it in one of my books and I’ve mentioned it in a lot of my talks on stage at conferences and I’ve talked about it on Twitter. But it’s interesting—you know—for a long time, I never really talked about the details. In fact, I remember the first time I brought it up, I was giving a talk and it was relevant to the topic I was talking about. I was talking about sort of being asked about that later in a form, but I acknowledged being sexually abused in this sort of very evasive way or sort of blink and you miss it sort of way, it was very easy to not have heard that that’s what I was doing if you weren’t paying attention so much to the talk. And that felt really hard for me at first, but it was almost like once I’d done it, I wanted to keep doing it. And sort of like half step at a time, talk about it in more specific detail or talk about it with a little bit more sort of ownership of it and not sort of making it be something that I am vaguely alluding to, but just saying it as it is. And so I feel like half step at a time, half step at a time, up to now—you know—recently I posted this Twitter thread about sort of like how we want to let men who’ve harassed ourselves or abused people sort of like come back into the fold. And I sort of talked about my experience and I talked about it more specifically than I had before. And still not that specifically, honestly, where—you know—it was a teenage neighbor boy who had sexually abused me for a long time when I was a really little kid and I’m thinking more and more that I want to tell that story in a deeper way and with that kind of detail that allows you to kind of—you know—understand what it was like, and also understand sort of the aftermath of that and kind of let go of some of the sort of long-standing shame that built up around it that I know I don’t deserve to have, but—you spend a long time purposefully not talking about it and reminding yourself to push it down, push it down, push it down that when it all comes back up and you’re purposefully sharing it, that feels weird. [4:59] KL Yeah, it totally does. And I think just talking about that whole idea of shame—you know—I think with your experience and as I wrote in the newsletter with mine—you know—this isn’t—this isn’t a new story, but it’s also when you think about the fact that as part of those stories and experiences, we weren’t believed or we were doubted that the thing that happened to us even happened to us. That makes it so much fucking harder and it’s like—I don’t know—I think that perpetuates the feeling of shame, it makes us feel like we can’t go into detail and that feels—that feels really terrible. I was sharing with you earlier that someone wrote to me after the newsletter went out and the first thing they said was just “I am so sorry that happened to you.” And that made me so relieved and feel very emotional because I think that that should be the absolute first thing that we start saying in this situation. Not—you know—surprise at like “oh my gosh, really?” It’s like “yeah, no, I’m so sorry, now let’s talk about it.” SWB You know, I don’t know that I’ve talked about this on the show before, but for about three years when I was in college I worked at a rape crisis center and I specifically worked in their education program, which meant I primarily talked to kids—middle schoolers was the number one audience we were able to get the okay from schools to go in and talk—to talk to them about sexual abuse and to talk to them about both child sexual abuse and things like consent. That’s a whole other show topic that we’ll get into at some point— KL [laughing] Yes. SWB —because actually I can’t believe we’ve never talked about this before. KL Yeah. SWB But one of the things that we learned very early on in the process of being trained to do this kind of work was to say literally that—right? “I’m sorry that happened to you.” There’s something powerful about it because it’s like there’s no question about whether it happened to you—right? And there’s no surprise, it’s more like there’s a tacit acknowledge that just exists that it happened. KL Yes. SWB And that is something that people need to hear because they’ve often heard so many messages from the people who have abused them or from culture at large that it doesn’t happen or it’s something to be shameful about. And to just be like “no, this happened and we can take that as a foundation that it happened and then talk about how we feel about it and what we’re going to do about it.” The other kinds of things we learned very early were conversations about saying very explicitly like “I believe you.” People are so afraid they’re not going to be believed, they’ve been told they’re not going to be believed, and then also “it’s not your fault.” Because that’s another one that often times abusers will tell people that it’s their fault—something they did—or other people will tell them that or that’s where the shame kicks in. And just you have to do a lot of work to counteract those messages. KL Yeah, to me when I hear that, it just boils my blood because it’s never a person’s fault when they’re harassed. Nothing you do ever warrants being harassed or abused, like that’s just—you can say that without having gender or anything in the mix. It’s like—we can all agree on that. [laughs] SWB Yeah—as we’re talking about all of this, it’s interesting. We started out this podcast saying this is really about work and about—you know—ambition and careers and sort of what drives us and it’s interesting because people have questioned me before about why I would bring up things like sexual abuse in a professional setting or why I want to talk about this stuff when I’m also wanting to talk about my career. But for me, the more we talk about this, the more clear it is that I cannot actually separate those. I can’t separate out the professional I am now from the little kid who experienced abuse, or from the college student whose first experience with public speaking was going into those middle schools to talk to kids. Those are all me and all of that experience directly informs the work that I do and what happened to you that you talked about on the newsletter—being sexually harassed by your boss happened to you at work. It’s directly tied to your career. And so I think it’s so valuable for us to kind of dig deeper on this stuff and think about the way that that does shape and drive the people that we are at work. KL Yes. I can’t separate the things that impact me at work from the work I do and I don’t want to. You know, I—when people talk about the idea of quote, unquote keeping politics out of work or anything we do, it’s like that question doesn’t even make sense to me. And it shouldn’t—you know—everything is political. SWB Yeah—our friend, Lisa Maria Martin—shoutout to Lisa Maria—she wrote this post a while back after a conference organizer had told speakers not to be political in their talks where she was basically like “look, that’s impossible.” Because you’re asking for this sort of false neutrality like, as you said, there is no neutral—because by defining what is and is not acceptable to discuss on stage, what’s political, what’s not political, what’s too political, you are making choices. So, she’s basically saying the conference organizer is making choices and those choices come down to politics themselves. “You are always excluding something,” she says, “or more likely, someone.” And—this is one of my favorite quotes—“for too many people in the world, their entire existence has been coded by society as too political.” And we are too political because we exist. Because we were harassed or abused, because we have periods, as we talked about a couple of episodes ago—right? We’re too political just being here and so if somebody tells us to not be political, then what they’re really saying to me is “don’t be.” [10:40] KL Yeah, completely. I am not interested in that. You know, the other thing that I think about when we’re talking about this, is I was just on a podcast where I talked about work and our podcast and [laughs] my therapist being on our show and we just—you know—dug into a lot of stuff. Plus I’m writing more in our newsletters, which I love, and that is really cathartic to talk and write about that stuff, but it’s also resurfacing trauma. And I mean I’ve talked about this with my therapist—you know—after writing some of the letters I’ve…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    Business Breakups with Bonnie Bogle Sep 25, 2018
    Show notes

    Breaking up is hard to do—whether you’re ending a business relationship or a marriage. Bonnie Bogle’s done both, and she’s here to tell us about the good, the bad, and the it’s-just-plain-complicated. Bonnie cofounded Mapbox, one of the largest providers of custom online maps in the world. But after growing the business from zero to more than 200 employees, she left it all behind. Now she’s the director of Brazen in Philadelphia, where she works with startups at the start of their journeys. Bonnie tells us about what it was like to launch Mapbox with her husband as her business partner—precisely at the moment they decided to get divorced. She also shares what it was like to leave that same company after building it into a massive success. Oh, and how she knows the secret behind McGruff the Crime Dog’s life story. > Who cares if this is super unusual? Yeah, we’re getting a divorce, and we’re starting a company together at the same time, and screw it! Let’s just do it. We both want this.> — Bonnie Bogle , cofounder of Mapbox and director of Brazen Philly We chat with Bonnie about: Why living in Peru inspired her to create her first company, build open-source websites, and ultimately provide access to better maps How everything Bonnie learned running operations for a quickly growing startup became the backbone for how she’s helping other new businesses launch and grow How to decide whether and when to let go of something you love Follow Bonnie: Twitter | Insta We also dig into… When leaving a job is bittersweet, so you hang around for a month (or more) Toxic companies, toxic bosses, and realizing when you gotta GTFO Crying in the work bathroom: the worst, but also sometimes totally ok Breastfeeding at meetups, in Parliament—and wherever the hell you want to (if you want to) Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Transcript [Ad spot] Sara Wachter-Boettcher Do you like feeling organized? How about getting paid? Well, friends, you will love Harvest. It’s a super simple tool I’ve been using for years to help me track time, invoice clients and run my business. And it scales from solo plans to multi-person, multi-client, multi-project setups. We even used Harvest to bill Harvest for this sponsorship. Seriously. Try it for free at getharvest.com and when you upgrade to a paid account, the code “noyougo” will get you 50% off your first month. Trust me, you should check it out. That’s getharvest.com, code “noyougo.” [intro music plays for twelve seconds] Jenn Lukas Hey, welcome back to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas.Katel LeDû I’m Katel LeDû. SWB And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. KL Our guest today is Bonnie Bogle. She’s someone I met about six years ago in DC when she was Head of Operations at a company called Mapbox. And she cofounded and bootstrapped Mapbox. Back then, it was a few people and pretty soon it was hundreds. And then last year in 2017, Bonnie walked away. So we’re going to talk with her about all of that and her journey—building the company and deciding to leave it and what’s next. It’s kind of a cool story. SWB Yeah, I really liked chatting with Bonnie because I think we talk with folks a lot about starting new stuff but we don’t talk that often about when do you decide that it’s time to go? Especially when it’s something that’s really close to you—right? Like, she spent a lot of time building the company and to walk away from it was a huge deal. So, I think we should talk more about knowing when it’s time to leave… whatever! Leave a job, or leave a side project, or leave a company you started. KL Yeah, seriously. I think about this with National Geographic because I was there for over six years before I joined A Book Apart. And there were lots of reasons I left, many of them were positive like looking for a new challenge or working with difficult people. I also had just never worked with a smaller company, which was interesting to me. But—I don’t know—there were also a bunch of negative reasons or reasons that didn’t feel so positive that I left. And I realized at a certain point that I’d gotten to a certain level of management and I think I had gotten exposed to—you know—some toxicity and some politics and some bullshit I just wasn’t really loving. And that made me unhappy and that was spilling over into how I was interacting with my team, which sucked. And it was in the middle of the summer I think and we were dealing with a whole bunch of projects, like a whole bunch of deadlines were hitting and our team was understaffed and somebody was out for vacation for a couple weeks coming up and then somebody else on my team asked if they could take the same two weeks off and I like…said no. I just basically was like “no you can’t” because I felt like I just couldn’t be with like one less person and thinking back on that, I’m just like I can’t believe I had that conversation with that person. [3:01] JL What was it like having that conversation with that person? KL Yeah, it was terrible! Like I think back on it and I was feeling a lot of stress and like I said, I think that was kind of spilling over into how I was dealing with my team and I felt so shitty that I had treated that person—you know kind of like not—not with a lot of respect by just being like “no because I say so.” Like that’s terrible! And I—I don’t know—I think at the time I didn’t—I felt like I didn’t have any other choice but really I did and it just makes me so sad that that’s how it went down. SWB I’ve definitely felt like I was in a situation where I was struggling so hard to keep my head above water myself that it was really hard to make space for advocating for the people who were reporting to me. And that’s definitely one of the big reasons that—that I left the job. I mean I remember managing a team and I realized that I was spending so much of my time managing up, so some of that was—you know—making sure that I wasn’t getting the short end of the stick with management. Part of that was also being the shit umbrella—right? Which is where like you want to prevent the shit from upstairs [laughing] to come down on your whole team [KL laughs] and so—you know—when there were questions about things like what everybody’s workload was and whether—this is at an agency—so whether everyone was sort of fully utilized, as they say. So like how billable are people? Are they making enough money for the company is fundamentally what that means. And whenever those kinds of conversations came up, I had to fiercely advocate for the people who I was working with and make sure that they were essentially protected—right? That nobody was perceiving them as not contributing enough because they were working very hard. That was very consuming for me and I did not feel like I had enough space or time or energy left to do a lot to support them or sponsor them—give them opportunities to shine or to grow. And that is something that I really wish that I had done differently and I think ultimately the kind of—kind of like you mentioned, Katel—toxicity that I felt coming at me all the time, that’s when I basically decided like “I gotta get out of here.” [5:12] KL Yeah, this is also just making me think back to that time. [suppresses laugh] And I was in an office with big windows that like looked out onto the floor where the rest of my team was and [laughs]—two of my team members sat directly outside my office and I just remember like sobbing [laughing] because of something, like some meeting I had come from and being like so overwhelmed and I just looked up and they were [laughs] watching me and I was like “oh god, [laughs] this is bad.” JL Oh my god [laughs]. [KL sighs.] I have a line when it’s time to go and that’s crying at work. And not because it’s not okay to have feelings— KL Totally. JL —but if any place is making me cry, I am like “get the fuck out, you do not need to be in a situation like this.” [KL laughs] And I know that’s easier said than done—right? It’s not always easy to just be like “okay, I’m going to get a new job…like tomorrow!” But there’s just a line of respect that I need people to have at work. Not just to me but me to them and everyone all around. And so there was—I had a job this one time and someone yelled at me. [KL sighs] And I am so not okay with people like yelling, scolding people. And I just started crying. And I couldn’t stop, I mean I was just like—I closed myself in—in office in attempts to stop crying because I didn’t want to leave the office and have other people see me cry. And that was it for me, like mentally. I still ended up working at that place for a couple more months but it was like me creating my exit plan. SWB Yeah, I feel like those kinds of events can be like a wake up call. But I do wish, Jenn, that you had been that little angel over my shoulder for all the times I was crying in the bathroom. [laughing] Because I’ve cried in a lot of work bathrooms! [JL laughs] And it didn’t really occur to me to be like “wait a second, you shouldn’t have to be doing this!” And I think it’s fine like look, if you cry in the bathroom, it’s okay. Everyone cries, it’s fine. But to look at that and say okay, it’s not just something wrong with you that you’re crying in the bathroom, it’s like what’s going on that is enabling that to happen over and over again. KL Yeah. JL There should just be signs in the bathroom. [laughs] You know, not no crying—it’s okay, your feelings are okay—but like no to that— SWB But like—JL —asshole who made you cry. [laughs] SWB Yeah, [laughing] exactly. JL You know, and there’s times—again if everything else was perfect and this was just a random situation where—I don’t know—someone was having a real shit day and I accidentally got yelled at—you know? But it wasn’t. It was representative of a toxic situation that I just shouldn’t have been in anymore and it was time for me to go. SWB One of those moments for me was when I was actually being harassed by this guy who did not work for my company but he was a vendor, so it was a third party service we used a ton, so we had this really close vendor relationship with them. And I went to their big vendor conference because my team was responsible for this relationship and we’d been like—just like normal conference things. We’d been out at drinks with a coworker from my company and—you know—went back to the hotel, I am going to my room to go to bed because I am a reasonable adult. And I started getting all these gross texts from him trying to get me to come to his hotel room to play. KL Eugh. SWB And it was—it was very gross. And I had spent the whole evening thinking like—you know, we had talked about—I don’t know—the farmer’s market that he likes to go to with his wife and how he had just dropped his daughter off at college. Like I thought we had been having a very normal conversation! He thought that he was like teeing up this whole extra scenario. So it was super gross and obviously he was gross, but one of the things that was a huge sign for me was that after that happened, I did not feel like I could talk to the owners of my company about it. I did not trust them. I did not trust what they would say or do about it and I did not feel confident that that scenario would end in a place that was any safer for me. I knew, for example, that one of the owners of my company, like the vendor relationship we had with this other company was so important to him that I was like “he is going to prioritize that relationship over me.” [KL sighs loudly] Which like— KL Not—not okay. SWB So because of that, I did not go to them. And it was just like I reported to the owners. I was a director reporting up to the owners and I had this team of like six people who worked for me. And a couple of them worked with this vendor all the time. And so at one point I quietly sat down with these other women and warned them about this guy. And I look back on that and I think what a sad state of affairs—right? As their manager, I was effectively telling them that they couldn’t trust that they were working in a place where they would be safe—right? I was effectively warning them about a creep as opposed to preventing a creep from being in their workplace. And I don’t think anybody should be in a workplace where somebody is going to harass or assault them. And obviously, self included—right like this should not have been happening to me—but that was definitely a moment where I was like “oh my gosh, I can not do right by them.” And I regret it in some ways. I mean, at this point, I would absolutely push this issue forward and I would go to their company and I would make a stink about it to them, I would make a stink about it to the owners and I wouldn’t shut up about it until something changed, even if that meant that like I was pushed out. But at the time, I felt really scared of that and I also felt like I had no idea where to even start. That was when I really realized—this is an environment where I am not going to be able to affect any change that is good for anybody, myself included, because this obviously objectively awful thing has happened and I don’t feel safe enough to even talk about that, so what the fuck [laughs nervously] am I ever going to be able to fix here? [10:58] KL I give you a lot of credit for—I mean, you know—going through that and looking back on it. And obviously it’s so hard to not have feelings of like “I wish I had done this.” But I think that that is something we fall into when we’re sort of—a little earlier on in our careers and we’re managers and when you’re in an environment when the responsibility to like do the right thing is—is only and constantly being placed on you, that’s not necessarily fair. It’s not that you’re not going to do the right thing but when you don’t have a structure—like you said—through which to kind of make things better, that’s—that’s really tough. SWB I’m curious. Have either of you ever left a job that you really loved and that was like a place that was good and you felt really close to, but you felt like for whatever reason, you had sort of gotten what you needed to get out of it? JL Totally, yeah. I have a couple of times actually. My first job out of school—I worked at Lockheed Martin—and though that might have not been the [laughing] perfect fit for me—I don’t know if everyone would imagine me working there—I worked with a bunch of really great people. But the issue with working at Lockheed Martin is you’re working on a lot of confidential things and if I ever wanted to find another job, I couldn’t really show my portfolio. Because I was more the web design field—right? [laughing] So it wasn’t exactly the perfect match for where I wanted to go in my career trajectory, so I knew that I sort of had to make a move because if I stayed there, it wouldn’t follow my career goals in life. So even though it was a really great job with really great people, it just wasn’t the perfect fit for me and what I wanted to do. So the long term picture made it sort of easier for me to leave that job and try something new. SWB Jenn, I know also that you ended up working at Happy Cog a few years later—an agency—and that you were there for several years. And I remember when I met you, you worked there. And I just really strongly associated you and Happy Cog. [JL laughs quietly] You’d been there a long time, you seemed so crucial to that place. And so I’m curious, did you feel that way—like Happy Cog was a big part of you and was it hard to leave a place that was—that you felt so close to? JL Oh yeah, I still say “we” when I talk about Happy Cog. [KL laug…

    Full show notes at the publisher

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