Stay ConnectedAnyone paying attention can tell you that our criminal legal system is perpetuating cruelty and harm, but the complexity of the legal world overwhelms most people simply trying to get through another day.
Public Defenseless explores the rot in the justice system and what we can do about it. Join host, Hunter Parnell, as he interviews top defense attorneys and criminal justice stakeholders from across the country as they pull apart the convoluted web of our criminal justice system.
On the night of September 15, 1992, in the Nashville Tennessee area, teenager Christopher Luckett was shot and killed.
Two days later, another teenager Cyrus Wilson was arrested for the crime. Even though there was only circumstantial evidence and many witnesses later admitted they were coerced into lying, Cyrus was found guilty and spent over 20 years in prison.
Today, he is 48 years old and still fighting for his innocence while on parole.
In this episode, Cyrus tells his story and how he is working to get the verdict overturned. Dawn Deaner, Former Public Defender in Nashville and Executive Director of the Choosing Justice Initiative joins him to add her expert perspective.
The fact is, thousands of innocent people are sitting in jail right now, powerless and without the resources they need.
The question is, how can we get the system to listen and take action?
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Cyrus Wilson
Dawn Deaner, Former Public Defender in Nashville, Founder and Executive Director of the Choosing Justice Initiative
Resources:
Contact Cyrus Wilson
Cyrus Wilson Granted Parole, Set to Be Released
Memorable Quotes:
"Once the police hone in on their guy, it can be difficult to get them off that gut intuition that police are very often instructed to follow." (1:53, Hunter)
"If we continue to believe that the only way victims can be made whole is by somebody going to jail, then we are gonna continue to end up in situations like this, where, who cares who goes to jail as long as somebody did." (12:48, Hunter)
"I don't necessarily know that there were more problems in public defense 30 years ago than there are today. I think that things have been bad and they've been bad a very long time." (31:26, Dawn)
"You can't give someone like 50 cases and understand that and think that they're realistically going to investigate cases appropriately." (51:32, Cyrus)
"We need to recognize that lawyers and judges in positions of power perpetuate this system that oppresses people." (53:09, Dawn)
"I've never committed a crime and I could be continually detained and incarcerated for something that I did not do that I'm still held accountable for right now in this moment. No matter what kind of life I create, it could be taken away at the drop of a hat simply because this situation has never been totally corrected." (1:24:02, Cyrus)
"Innocent people and people who are not necessarily innocent should be treated justly and fairly without bias." (1:37:29, Cyrus)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
In this episode, I speak with Mark Stephens, the former chief public defender of Knoxville Tennessee.
Tennessee public defense has been stuck in neutral, if not reverse for a long time. In fact, almost everything was established in the 90's and hasn't changed much since.
Rutherford county incarcerated approximately 48% of children referred to juvenile court in 2014, and the statewide average for juvenile incarceration is 5%. Today, we talk about two alarming reports that have been released discussing the representation of juvenile offenders in the state.
In Tennessee, public defenders are elected to 4 and 8-year terms. Mark also highlights how this unique system affects the levels of representation and the bottom line.
Overall, Mark leaves us with his ideas for a better system and the hope that the Tennessee public defense system will change for good.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Mark Stephens, Former Chief Defender of Knoxville Public Defense
Resources:
Shelby County Juvenile System Report
Memorable Quotes:
"Children, for the most part, we have an opportunity to rehabilitate them." (3:23, Hunter)
"Public defenders are paid the same that assistant district attorneys and district attorneys are paid, which is the way I think it ought to be." (14:52, Mark)
"People generally don't care about the adults that are in the criminal justice system, because we've got this idea that they're all bad people and that they're all guilty." (25:59, Mark)
"This state of crisis or chaos that a criminal charge brings in a person's life is also an opportunity for that person and that public defender to bring about change." (38:12, Mark)
"I think the legislature has been shortsighted in terms of fully understanding the potential within the public defender office." (47:32, Mark)
"People would disagree with me, but I think every aspect of the system, as I know it ought to be scrapped and redesigned." (58:30, Mark)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Today, you'll hear about public defense from the judge's point of view. Tom Boyd is a former Michigan District Court Judge who currently works in the court administration office.
At one point one of the weakest systems in the United States, his work to improve the indigent system has driven forward the future of Michigan public defense and has left a positive precedent for other states.
The 6th amendment is the ultimate protection against government power that is designed to keep people safe from a government acting out of control.
Many people believe that judges should be held accountable for protecting the constitution, so bettering the public defense system should be more of a priority.
Sharing his unique perspective, your mindset around public defense will be challenged and you'll see that a lot more than you think goes into fair representation for all.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Tom Boyd, Former Michigan District Court Judge, Michigan State Court Administrator
Resources:
Michigan Indigent Defense Commission
NLADA Report "Race to the Bottom"
Memorable Quotes:
"I want to talk to more than just public defenders. I want to talk to all range of people who are involved in the criminal justice system, because part of reform is going to require that all of the people in the system work together." (2:07, Hunter)
"When you're the judge at the end of the conversation you win." (13:35, Tom)
"If we can be crass about it, the judiciary is a service industry." (22:05, Tom)
"I think that the Michigan indigent defense commission, which is still in its infancy, you know, six years, seven years, something like that. Has established itself as reliable and dedicated to advancement and done a good enough job that there are very few judges who fought the relinquishment of control." (25:56, Tom)
"There are bad actors in the legal system who take advantage of individuals and they should be found, rooted out, and gotten out of the system." (48:29, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Today, I speak with David Kaplan and Sara Hildebrand, two former Colorado public defenders and current members of the Aurora Public Defender Commission.
The three of us dive deep into Public Defense Commissions, how they function, and the important work they do in advocating for public defenders.
The commission side of public defense offers a unique insight into how policy is made and the types of negotiations that need to be made. The fact is, there's more that goes into it than you might think!
If you are a public defender who wants to start a commission or someone who's not an attorney and wants to get involved, this is the perfect episode for you!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
David Kaplan, Former Colorado State Public Defender and Aurora Public Defender Commission Member
Sara Hildebrand former Public Defender in Durango/Arpahoe County and Aurora Public Defender Commission Member
Resources:
Aurora Public Defender Commission
Memorable Quotes:
"You don't have to be a lawyer to make these changes, to be passionate about reform and taking efforts to change your community. That's a key goal. That's a key theme of this show is that you do not have to be an attorney to understand this and to make changes." (2:27, Hunter)
"I think those of us who ended up being public defenders never lose the spirit of being a public defender." (9:55, David)
"When you do policy work, you have to have a broader understanding. There has to be, I believe a greater amount of compromise." (24:32, David)
"Our obligation as defenders, whether as a state defender or a municipal defender or a federal defender, is to zealously advocate for our clients. And like David was saying, that means that our clients should feel like they have the best lawyer in the courtroom." (28:21, Sara)
"We represent the people and the community, right? And so in a democratic environment, that should mean something." (40:01, Sara)
"I think a key part of our role is to humanize people that are accused in a system that's just expert at dehumanizing people." (56:27, Sara)
In 1994, Barry Jones was arrested for the rape and murder of his girlfriend's four-year-old daughter. Even though his innocence is obvious to all who would look, he sits on Arizona's death row, waiting to be executed for a crime he did not commit.
Sylvia Lett and Andrew Sowards are the former federal public defender and Investigator who worked on the case and join us for this special two-hour episode to give all the details.
They walk us through this horribly unjust trial and explain how the criminal justice system set Barry up for failure from the start.
From junk science to bad witnesses, nothing about this trial was fair. To make it worse, the Supreme Court has reaffirmed that actual proof of innocence is not enough to overturn an execution.
Syliva and Andrew's account of this story will change the entire way you view the criminal justice system.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Sylvia Lett, Professor of Law at the University of Arizona and Former Federal Public Defender
Andrew Sowards, Former Federal Public Defender Investigator
Resources:
The Intercept Story of Barry Jones
Arizona Capital Representation Project
After Speaking with Barry, Sylvia informed me that he welcomed letters from those with "authentic interest in the injustices in his case". He would welcome correspondence to speak about his case. While he says he has no time for sympathy, I can only imagine showing him that there are people who care, who see the injustice done to him, and who are fighting to lift up his story will help him maintain his fighting spirit. Please do not write to him simply for the novelty of writing to someone on death row and please mark all mail with "NON-LEGAL MAIL" His address is: Barry Lee Jones, ADOC #114690 ASPC Florence Browning Unit P.O. Box 8200 Florence, AZ 85132
Memorable Quotes:
"A just system is not just one that protects the innocent. It also protects everybody involved in it because that is a merciful system." (8:10, Hunter)
"Barry's case is kind of the poster case of failures all around, in many ways." (31:54, Sylvia)
"So often we think justice is solving the crime, but justice also involves making sure that we are doing right by the accused." (47:47, Hunter)
"If you don't know the person, if you don't live with them, don't be judging their emotion, their emotional response, because every single person is different." (51:36, Andrew)
"If you are concerned or worried about state power and the threat of the state, I promise you that it is the work of federal public defenders, federal investigators, and public defenders around the country who will do more to protect you from the power of the state than a gun ever will." (1:48:49, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Like most people, shows like CSI, Law and Order, or even Dexter, may have you convinced that the science used to convict people is airtight. Everything from bite marks, blood spatter, and even finger prints, must be scientifically valid...right?
What if I told you, almost all of it is predicated on junk science and the failings of the legal system to catch it? Today's guest is on the show to highlight this and the infrastructure that has been created to support wrongful convictions.
Chris Fabricant is the Director of Strategic Litigation at the Innocence Project and the author of Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System.
In this episode, we will go over some of the findings in Chris' book that help us to understand how the legal system allowed bad science to become such a powerful tool to wrongfully convict thousands of Americans.
Giving his solutions to the junk science problem, Chris will leave you with the hope that it will one day be no more.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Chris Fabricant, Director of Strategic Litigation, Innocence Project
Resources:
2009 National Academy of Sciences Report
2016 PCAST Forensic Science Report
Buy Chris's Book Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System
Memorable Quotes:
"I don't think people actually want to live in the type of society that our legal principles say we should be living in." (4:50, Hunter)
"What we know about the law as compared to science is that the law is stable." (22:17, Chris)
"In reality, crime usually happens. Police get together, form their suspect. And then, a lot of the analysis of the evidence is then with that suspect in mind." (27:39, Hunter)
"Science should always be objective, it should be separated from the adversarial process." (29:40, Chris)
"There's widespread scientific illiteracy in the bar." [50:59, Chris)
"Once you're accused unless you can afford really, really good counsel, you're kind of fucked." (59:56, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
In 1976, Ed Monahan was hired as a Kentucky assistant public defender. He would eventually go on to be the state's Public Advocate for an impressive 9 years.
Although he no longer fills that position, today Ed comes on Public Defenseless to talk about the impactful work he did in that role and the advocacy he continues to do today.
He'll also give you a good overview of the public defense system in Kentucky. While the state has a good foundation, it still desperately lacks funding.
In a state that has one of the highest incarceration rates in the nation, Ed Monahan is turning around the system for the better.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Ed Monahan, Former Public Advocate for the Commonwealth Kentucky, Former Executive Director of the National Association of Public Defenders Fund for Justice, Active Contributor to National Association of Public Defenders' Policy
Resources:
FY19 Kentucky Department of the Public Advocate Annual Report
Ed Monahan OpEd on Bad Statistics Driving Policy
Ed Monahan & Nina Ginsberg on Marsy's Law
Farewell Address from Ed Monahan
NAPD Policy on Active Supervision
NAPD Policy on Proper Professional Space
Memorable Quotes:
"I came on without any training. I was just handed cases. And so I knew there was a better way." (17:54, Ed)
"We have good training culture of active supervision, but what Kentucky has not had is adequate funding through all these years." (20:25, Ed)
"There still are many public policy leaders in Kentucky who when faced with those facts of reduced crime rates still have this desire to incarcerate more people for longer periods of time. It's really a financially imprudent and counterproductive way for Kentucky to use its limited resources." (28:27, Ed)
"I really believe as public defender leaders, we have to do a better job of communicating the public value of public defense." (34:54, Ed)
"I do public defender work out of my deep held beliefs that poor people deserve to have the best representation that money could buy." (38:51, Ed)
"Having realistic hope in what's possible in the future is the motivation to continue to apply the talents and skills any of us have to work for a better criminal justice system." (47:50, Ed)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Scott Hechinger is the founder and executive director of Zealous. Through his work, he is fighting hard to challenge injustice through the media and topple the imbalance of power within the criminal justice system.
As a former public defender in the Bronx system, he comes on today's episode to talk all about New York Public Defense and his work to make it fairer for all. He explains how he collaborates with the media to change the narrative around public defense and break long-held stigmas. He also shares how he encourages all members of the public defense system to come together for positive change.
Scott is an impressive example of one individual who is changing the public defense system for good!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Resources:
Prince George County Court Watchers
Memorable Quotes:
"When we see public defenders in the news, it's often saying no comment, we kind of model that behavior and assume that we're not supposed to talk." (16:24, Scott)
"If we actually cared about public health and safety, we wouldn't be investing billions into costly and cruel and failed solutions." (19:19, Scott)
"Here's what people need to know: the reality is that bail reform is consistent with greater public safety." (33:04, Scott)
"I think people just need to realize that, to tell a whole story. You need every aspect of that story. You can't just listen to the same side because they're going to have the same biases." (41:35, Hunter)
"I know that when folks are locked up and pushed away, not forced to confront the pain that they caused, it's actually not holding folks accountable. It's easier to put it out of sight out of mind". (56:35, Scott)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Jon Rapping is a former public defender dedicated to changing the system and advocating for true equality.
The founder of Gideon's Promise, this nonprofit organization is on a mission to build a movement of public defenders that can drive transformative change within the criminal legal system.
In this episode, Jon talks about the challenges of shaping the culture of a public defender office to one that is capable of providing client centered public defense.
He explains why so many young public defenders come into this field passionate and ready to drive change, but end up burning out and going with the status quo.
By mentoring these lawyers and building a community to support them, public defenders receive strategies to close the gap between themselves and their clients.
The criminal justice and public defense systems might be dysfunctional, but this episode will give you hope that positive change is on the horizon.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Jon Rapping, Executive Director/Co-Founder of Gideon's Promise
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
"Systems that lack funding and lack independence very quickly develop a culture where public defenders are pushed to go along with the status quo to please judges and value efficiency over representing clients and valuing justice." (4:45, Jon)
"No longer do we really believe in a criminal legal system like the founders envisioned. It is a system for perpetuating control of people." (10:45, Jon)
"The public is fed a narrative that says marginalized communities, black and brown communities, are dangerous, they're a threat." (13:19, Jon)
"Law schools are failing at the responsibility of producing lawyers who understand what justice is." (27:53, Jon)
"Culture is a function of our values." (38:44, Jon)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
In a profession steeped in tradition, technological advances can come slowly to the legal world. Given the strapped for cash nature of Public Defense, it is essential that PDs break from the tech aversion prevalant in the legal world.
That's where my guests for today's show come into play. Rocky Ramirez, Managed Assigned Counsel in Bexar County, Texas, and Paul Chambers, Public Defender at the Far West Texas Office, are on a mission to modernize the system.
Public defenders almost notoriously never have enough time. But when Rocky and Paul discovered automation, they found a way to speed up the system while giving public defenders time to do more things aimed at client focused representation.
In this episode, Rocky and Paul talk about how they've implemented automation within the Texas indigent system and the positive effects it's had for all parties involved.
Their passion for creating a system that better helps their clients in cost effective ways could truly revolutionize the way many offices are doing buisness!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Rocky Ramirez, Managed Assigned Counsel, Legal Technology Resource Attorney, Bexar County Texas
Paul Chambers, Public Defender Far West Texas Office
Resources:
Far West Texas Regional Public Defender
Memorable Quotes:
"I think that's a very positive thing for people to hear criminal defense attorneys have souls." (10:16, Hunter)
"I kind of started focusing my time on learning these domains, learning about data science, learning about process automation, robotic process automation, business, process automation, trying to kind of stamp my feet and say, hey, we gotta be paying attention to this. This is something that could really change the game." (16:03, Paul)
"The things that we as attorneys need to be focused on is the thing that we have the least amount of time to do, which is why the system is exactly the way it is." (19:24, Paul)
"You've got people doing things, these tedious processes that take hours, and they can be boiled down to a click of a button." (26:45, Rocky)
"The future for public defenders, I think is pretty huge. I can see a world where as close to zero of repetitive data entry and non-legal work is happening on a case or in an office. And that means a lot." (43:09, Paul)
"The point is you can't get somebody to create something for you. We're moving to a world where we create it for ourselves." (49:49, Rocky)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
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