Stay ConnectedAnyone paying attention can tell you that our criminal legal system is perpetuating cruelty and harm, but the complexity of the legal world overwhelms most people simply trying to get through another day.
Public Defenseless explores the rot in the justice system and what we can do about it. Join host, Hunter Parnell, as he interviews top defense attorneys and criminal justice stakeholders from across the country as they pull apart the convoluted web of our criminal justice system.
There are only so many victories that can happen for Public Defense in a court room. Of course, we should the goal should be zealous advocacy and the best outcome for each client, but a single victory in a single case is not enough to stem the tide of Mass Incarceration. Real victories for the accused come at the policy level, and that is what this week's conversation is all about. Joining Hunter this week is Brad Haywood and Bryan Kennedy, two public defenders in Virginia and members of the non-partisan policy advocacy group, Justice Forward Virginia!
Throughout the conversation, both Brad and Bryan highlight the importance of brining the public defender voice to the policy table. Without that voice, policy makers are often directed by the only criminal justice stakeholders in the room: Police and Prosecutors. Organizations like Justice Forward, while difficult to start and sustain, are an essential factor for those looking to zealously fight for public defense reform at the level where small changes make the most impact.
Guests:
Brad Haywood, Chief Public Defender, Arlington VA
Bryan Kennedy, Assistant Public Defender, Fairfax VA
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Introduction to Brad, Bryan, and Justice Forward [6:30]
How to fill the knowledge gap between the theory of law and the practice of law [12:45]
The importance of having a public defender at the policy table [15:40]
Policy Victories for Justice Forward [21:10]
Sustaining Victories and Understanding the Political Landscape of Virginia [28:19]
Lies perpetuated by the media about Criminal Justice Reform [37:00]
Impacts of Virginia Laws on Racial Minorites [42:50]
How to Best Message Progressive Criminal Justice Policies [49:50]
Advice for those seeking Policy Reform [57:50]
Resources:
Example of Media Bias Around Shooting in Arlington
Follow them on twitter:
Brad Haywood @BradleyRHaywood
Bryan Kennedy @kennedybtd
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
Jenny Andrews is the Director of Training for California's Indigent Defense Improvement Division. She's here today to teach you what public defense is truly like from the defender's side.
Public defenders are often trapped between a rock and a hard place because they want to provide equal representation access, yet are expected to work too many hours for not enough pay. Because of this, "martyr complex" is prevalent in this field.
You'll learn that public defense is an area of service, but that this often comes at the expense of the defender's mental health. Jenny will walk you through how she's helping implement self-care practices into nation wide and why self-care is vital to providing zealous representation!
Throughout this episode, remember that ultiamtely, it is the client who sufferes when the public defender suffers in silence
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Jenny Andrews, Director of Training, Indigent Defense Improvement Division, Office of the State Public Defender, California
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
"It is the client who suffers the most when public defenders are run ragged and into the ground." (4:33, Hunter)
"As a public defender, most of us come into this work because we see the way that the system treats the most vulnerable people, and we wanna provide a high level of representation to them. And then we encounter all of these obstacles and things that block us and prevent us from being able to do that. And it's really, really taxing and demoralizing." (18:14, Jenny)
"Having great self-care tools is like knowing how to change a tire, but you drive every day on a road that is covered in potholes. So you are constantly needing to change your tires." (31:48, Hunter)
"If you are not letting your people take care of yourself, the mission will fall apart. They will not perform." (53:39, Hunter)
"I think that if we are taking care of ourselves and each other, we are better equipped to take care of the people that we represent." (58:45, Jenny)
"We have to break out of this idea that caging people fixes social problems." (1:02:02, Jenny)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
This Week, Hunter spoke with the awesome and powerful, Brendon Woods. As Chief Public Defender in Alameda County, Brendon is one of the loudest and strongest advocates for criminal justice reform in the entire country.
On this episode, Brendon and Hunter discuss how Brendon was able to cultivate the culture both in and out of his office that enabled wide sweeping success at crafting meaningful reforms. From his work in the state house to his work in the Oakland community, Brendon has seen success after success because of his ability to show the local community the essential role that Public Defense places in community health. From his voter registration program to his high school, his team has helped to demonstrate for all the extent to what Public Defense could be.
Brendon's vision and drive to implement a truly holistic model of public defense is one that all public defenders should strive to meet.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Brendon's path to becoming a Chief Defender [11:12]
Developing a Positive Reputation in Alameda County [13:44]
VOICE and LYRIC Programs [15:15]
Immigration Representation Work [21:00]
How to Keep Getting Resources to Grow [25:00]
Public Defender Funding Disparities [27:00]
Battle with The Alameda DA's [31:30]
The Recall of Chesa Boudin and the Role of DAs [37:50]
Policy Victories in the State [46:10]
Pushback To Policy Reform [51:50]
Discussion on California Public Defense [57:00]
Guests:
Brendon Woods, Chief Public Defender, Alameda County, California
Resources:
Alameda Public Defender Office
Establishing Immigration Representation
SB310 – which allows people with felony convictions to serve on juries. Brendon published an op-ed about this bill.
AB3070 – which made it more difficult for racist prosecutors to kick black people off juries. He also wrote an op-ed on this.
Battles with the DA
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
38: Michigan Public Defense w/ Kristen Staley
Ready for a refreshing dose of positivity?
In this episode, Hunter speaks with Kristen Staley, the Executive Director of the Michigan Indigent Defense.
Kristen maps out the complexities of a committee system, sharing the unique challenges and benefits that having individual offices hold. It turns out that the quality of services varies from county to county.
She'll also explain how she is working in the legislature to transform the future of Michigan public defense. Kristen has many goals for the state that she lays out in this episode.
Overall, Kristen conveys an attitude of hope and excitement for the future. She is certain that Michigan indigent defense will change for the better.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Kristen Staley, Executive Director Michigan Indigent Defense Commission
Resources:
Michigan Indigent Defense Commission
Race to the Bottom NLADA Report
Prof Eve Primus Observations on Michigan Court Rooms
Memorable Quotes:
"Change can happen and will happen if you keep on pushing." (10:23, Hunter)
"18 is not a magic number, that there is science and there is research and youth are not adults." (17:07, Kristen)
"The criminal justice system, just like any other type of system, is run by humans. Right? And we all have these biases, no matter what it is, but we have to be able to understand and recognize them." (18:21, Kristen)
"I think that having such a large group of stakeholders beyond the commission helps ensure that we're actually hearing all the voices and makes sure that we're not forgetting things." (35:15, Kristen)
"I think there's a lot of very good activists who push these types of things forward, but not every great activist is also a great policy person. I think that's very different. And not every great policy person is a great activist." (51:47, Hunter)
"Public defenders care about this work. At the end of the day they are advocates." (1:04:35, Kristen)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
This week, Hunter spoke with Jeff Sherr and Heather Hall of the National Association of Public Defense to discuss the importance of training the next generation of Public Defense Leaders.
Over their careers, Jeff and Heather have seen first hand the transformation in the types of people drawn to Public Defense. This evolution from warriors in the court room to advocates in the policy realm has only be possible thanks to the development of new training methods that focus on the communication skills of Public Defender leaders, but this training must extend to more than just Public Defenders.
As an organization that caters to all members of a Public Defense team, the NAPD is essential to ensuring every member of an office is equipped with the tools to provide holistic representation to every client!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Crafting Training Programs/Development of Training Goals [12:45]
Challenges and Opportunities in Bringing together different jobs in Public Defense [16:05]
Brining Different Types of Public Defenders Together [20:21]
Different Public Defender Motivations [24:00]
Different Training for Different Kinds of Advocacy [33:50]
The Challenges of Leadership [42:00]
Creating Communication Models that Work in Different Places [44:08]
How do You Convince a Community Trust Public Defense Again [50:40]
Guests:
Jeff Sherr, Director of Training, National Association of Public Defense
Heather Hall, Engagement Director, National Association of Public Defense
Resources:
National Association of Public Defense
https://www.publicdefenders.us/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
Kentucky is known to have a strong and well-structured public defender system, but it is held back by poor funding and an unresponsive legislative body.
This week, Hunter speaks with Ernie Lewis, the former Public Advocate of Kentucky and former Executive Director of the National Association for Public Defense (NAPD).
They discuss Ernie's work in public defense reform and the best ways to get needed changes. Ernie attempts to answer the ultimate question—what does it take to transform the system so it's responsive to the needs of those in it?
Instrumental in the formation of the NAPD, he'll explain how it began and why the work of this organization is so important. He'll also explore how to balance the needs of public defenders with the needs of the individuals going through the system.
Ernie brings to the show a refreshing, optimistic look at the public defense system and its future.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Ernie Lewis, Former Public Advocate of Kentucky, Former Executive Director of the NAPD
Resources:
Final Report of the Blue Ribbon Group
Public Advocacy Commission Justice Jeopardized Final Report
Department of Public Advocacy FY19 Annual Report
Indigency Determination Statute
Memorable Quotes:
"I then wanted to go to law school and represent poor people to give justice to poor people." (10:35, Ernie)
"Since 1998, we were able to reduce reliance upon fines and fees considerably. So that by the time I left, our budget was about 40 million and only about 3 million of that 40 million came from fines and fees." (17:45, Ernie)
"This is a state obligation to provide enough resources so that each person charged with a crime who is eligible for a public defender, gets a well-trained, qualified attorney with support staff." (20:49, Ernie)
"Probably the biggest problem in indigent defense is the vast gap between representation for felonies and representation for misdemeanors, especially in lower level courts." (28:11, Hunter)
"Indigent defense has always been one of the last priorities of government." (43:58, Ernie)
"My generation of public defenders has participated in mass incarceration. We have witnessed just since 1970, the destruction of people, families, neighborhoods, and we've become now the place with the highest percentages of incarceration in the world." (55:38, Ernie)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
This week, Hunter sat down with Jane Fox and Kyle Morris to discuss one of the pressing issues facing millions of Americans: Student Loans.
As of today, there is roughly $1.75 trillion in student loans that remain outstanding. For many, these debts will carry with them until they hit retirement age. This is a debt that cannot be discharged via bankruptcy and the high interest rates make it extremely difficult for those in low paying public service jobs to ever pay off the principle. That is where Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) comes into play.
While it is far from a perfect program, PSLF has helped thousands of people serving the public. After 10 years of service and 10 years of payments, certain loans can be completely forgiven. Yet, the program, as many government programs are, is extremely cumbersome to navigate. Recognizing these difficulties and wanting to help, Jane and Kyle offer their expertise to guide people through the PSLF process to lift the burden of debt off of their shoulders!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How much Debt Kyle and Jane Had [15:00]
History of PSLF [24:00]
The Problems with Loan Servicers [28:00]
Specific Requirements for PSLF [32:00]
Hurdles to PSLF [34:110]
Future of PSLF and the Student Loan Industry [41:00]
PSLF Is For More than Just Attorneys [47:38]
The Politics of Student Loan Forgiveness [59:00]
Guests:
Jane Fox, Staff Attorney, New York Legal Aid Society
Kyle Morris, Public Defender, Nashville Public Defender Office
Memorable Quotes:
"Jane and I often joke that talking to servicers is like our clients talking to the Police. It's usually not a good idea without an attorney present" – Kyle [28:45]
Resources:
Contact Kyle: kylemmorris@jisnashville.gov
Contact Jane: Jfox@legal-aid.org
For Help with PSLF Call DOE Ombudsman
877-557-2575
Public Service Loan Forgiveness
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
www.publicdefenseless.com
Sara Mayeux is a law professor at Vanderbilt University and the author of the book Free Justice, A History of the Public Defender in 20th Century America.
Sara discusses the progressive era, the 1950s and the development of public defense of modern America, and the supreme court's role throughout it all.
The development of public defense has largely been dictated by the growth of the nation through urbanization, industrialization, and economic inequality. Sara and Hunter talk through how culture impacted the development of law as it stands today. This episode lays a foundational understanding of how our public defense came to be what it is today. A must-listen!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Sara Mayuex, Professor of Law and History, Vanderbilt University
Memorable Quotes:
"There's this broader cultural sense in which we think of American law as adversarial. Meaning that, especially in a criminal case, the defendant is up against the state and that's his adversary or enemy. And so of course, the defense lawyer and the prosecutor are going to see themselves as doing battle. And they're not going to see themselves as having any kind of shared goal or shared mission." - Sara Mayeux
"The dominant standard understanding of what happens with respect to public policy debates during the Cold War is that anything that looks even remotely too much like communism or socialism is basically written out of the realm of possibility for American policymakers." - Sara Mayeux
Get Sara Mayeux's Book:
Free Justice: A History of the Public Defender in 20th Century America
https://uncpress.org/book/9781469661650/free-justice/
https://law.vanderbilt.edu/bio/sara-mayeux
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
The Massachusetts public defense system presents arguably the best example of how contract public defense could work, largely in part to today's guest—Anthony Benedetti, Chief Public Defender of Massachusetts.
Their system is made up of approximately 80% contract attorneys, and in this episode, Anthony walks us through how he helps to oversee these attorneys and ensures a quality level of representation for all.
He'll also break down the complicated funding of the system, and why $60 per hour just doesn't cut it.
Anthony is working hard to create a future where more layers will want to go into public defense and is optimistic that the Massachusetts indigent defense system will continue to improve!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Anthony Benedetti, Chief Counsel, Committee for Public Counsel Services
Resources:
Mass Bar Report on Attorney Pay
Memorable Quotes:
"It's one thing in theory to talk about public defender pay and how much people make and, and all these things. But at the end of the day, it's the working-class Americans who were represented by these people who pay the price." (6:08, Hunter)
"I like to tell people that there are just so many injustices on a daily basis, that it is pretty easy to get re-pissed off and realize that you have to keep up the fight each and every day on behalf of our clients." (12:40, Hunter)
"I think it's, there are a whole range of reasons why people choose to do this work, but at the end of the day, when they choose to do this work, they have to do it in a certain way." (23:05, Anthony)
"It is really hard for us to get people out of law school who want to do this full-time or close to full-time." (42:56, Anthony)
"The longer that you go without counsel, the more you are disadvantaged being able to present a defense." (51:32, Anthony)
"I'm pretty confident that things are going to get better in Massachusetts." (1:08:35, Anthony)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Franny Forsman has been working in Nevada indigent defense for several decades, and today she brings her impressive breadth of experience to the show!
Franny is a former Post Conviction Indigent Defense Counsel in Nevada who has worked long and hard to improve the system.
Today, she speaks with us about how the ACLU lawsuit has brought drastic changes to the state of Nevada and why there are still so many weaknesses.
She'll explain how the Nevada public defense system handles the massive amount of rural coverage and share her dream for the future of the state.
Franny will reassure you that all together, Nevada's public defense system is heading in the right direction!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Franny Forsman, Former Post Conviction Indigent Defense Counsel in Nevada
Resources:
State of Nevada v. Second Judicial District Court. 453 P2d 421. at 424 (Nevada 1969)
Memorable Quotes:
"It's David Carroll who said in his interview, a radical way to fix the system is to simply look at how many people are not actually getting attorneys. Look at how many cases are actually being carried. Look at how little work is being done in these cases." (6:51, Hunter)
"There was never a consequence to the state to underfund the system." (20:41, Franny)
"It's the state's responsibility to make sure that this gets right. It's the enforcement of all of the laws, including the sixth amendment that the state is responsible for." (34:07, Franny)
"Wherever you live, find the nearest courtroom. Odds are if you walked in there and you see a public defender working and you asked them how many cases do you take a year, more likely than not, they are going to have absolutely no idea." (53:56, Hunter)
"My feeling is that we will always have to have contract lawyers because of conflicts of interest." (1:01:55, Franny)
Contact Hunter Parnell:hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
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