Stay ConnectedAnyone paying attention can tell you that our criminal legal system is perpetuating cruelty and harm, but the complexity of the legal world overwhelms most people simply trying to get through another day.
Public Defenseless explores the rot in the justice system and what we can do about it. Join host, Hunter Parnell, as he interviews top defense attorneys and criminal justice stakeholders from across the country as they pull apart the convoluted web of our criminal justice system.
When people discuss the criminal legal system, you may often hear someone say, "the system is not broken. It is acting exactly was it was designed." On today's episode, Hunter and guest Ray Keith discuss the ways in which the legal system in Texas is designed to kill people.
As the head of the Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases in Texas, Ray is intimately familiar with the statutory language and process that directs the jury towards a death penalty over life. While this is a highly technical episode, it is important to dig down into the weeds to examine the insidious ways the legal system is operating exactly as it was intended.
Hopefully, this episode will also spark a curiosity in you to understand the complex legal technicalities in your own state may drive harsher punishments. While Texas is the focus of this episode, we know they are not alone in designing a system with the goal of producing the harshest possible outcomes for those being processed through it
Guests:
Ray Keith, Chief Public Defender, Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases, Texas
Key Topics and Takeaways:
What the RPDO does and how Ray got there [7:40]
Difficulties of being a Criminal Defense Attorney in Texas [13:20]
The Texas Capital Statute [15:36]
How a Capital Jury is Selected [20:00]
The Questions you Can't ask a Jury [27:00]
The Punishment Phase of a Capital Case [30:46]
Why Doesn't Texas Explain "Reasonable Doubt" to Jurors [32:30]
The Questions Jurors need to Answer to Give the Death Penalty [34:70]
The "Evidence" Used to Prove Future Threat [40:00]
Why Rehabilitation is disregarded in Texas Capital Cases [45:00]
The Second Question Jurors Consider [48:00]
How the State Proves Someone Should be Killed [50:00]
The Way Jury Instructions Lead to Death Sentences [58:00]
Why Is this So Hard to Fix and What Can be Done [1:03:00]
Resources:
Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases Website
Texas Indigent Defense Commission
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Today, Hunter sat down with Marea Beeman, Director of Research Initiatives for Defender Legal Services at the National Legal Aid and Defender Association (NLADA), to discuss their recent report, "At What Cost? Findings from an Examination into the Imposition of Public Defense System Fees.
If you ask the average person what the word "free" means, they will likely tell you it means whatever is considered "free" does not have any cost associated with it. So, when people hear, "If you cannot afford counsel, one will be appointed to you at no cost to yourself", people would likely assume that this attorney is "free". Anyone who is familiar with our legal system, however, will inform you that you will likely have to pay for your Public Defender. In fact, in many states, the first time you appear before a judge, that judge will make clear to you that your counsel will cost you.
From a top-down look at all 50 states, to deep dives into the Public Defender fees in Oklahoma, Iowa, and New Hampshire, Marea and Hunter discuss the various ways these fees trap people in never ending cycles of debt that can lead to future incarceration, loss of driving privileges, and work to perpetuate a broken, predatory legal system
Guests:
Marea Beeman, Director of Research Initiatives for Defender Legal Services at the National Legal Aid and Defender Association (NLADA),
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How Marea got into this work [8:00]
What is the NLADA [9:30]
What do you mean my "free attorney" isn't free [10:30]
Difference Between Fines and Fees [14:20]
Methodology of the Study [17:50]
The Issues with Indigency Determination [21:00]
Findings from Oklahoma [26:13]
Findings in Iowa [39:40]
Findings in New Hampshire [53:00]
Solutions to the Issue [57:00]
Resources:
NY Times Report on Alabama Fees and Fines
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Today Hunter had the distinct pleasure of speaking with Nate Wade and Katie Gipson-McLean, two public defenders from the Arizona. Of all the episodes, this may be the one that makes you the most pissed off.
From the outset, Katie and Nate drop story after story that reveals the deeply regressive and reactionary structure sustaining the status quo of mass incarceration in Arizona. From the powerful money interests in the DOC, to the work of a single, motivated individual, Arizona can easily be described as one of the most pro carceral states in America. Constantly ranking at the top leader boards in state spending on incarceration, Arizona is this way by design.
Despite all of the issues laid out (and there are a lot of them), Hunter hopes you walk away with hope that change in a place like this is possible because of the dedication and determination of fighters like Nate and Katie!!
Guests:
Nate Wade, Public Defender, Pinal County, Arizona
Katie Gipson-McLean, Public Defender, Maricopa County, Arizona
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How Nate and Katie got into Public Defense [8:06]
Inconsistencies from county to county in Arizona Public Defense and Criminal Justice [12:00]
Understanding the Politics of Arizona [21:29]
How a single person shapes Arizona criminal justice policies [32:33]
Can punishment have a deterrent effect? [36:45]
The corruption and power influencing Arizona reforms [39:10]
Why it is so difficult for defense attorneys to have their voices heard in Arizona [50:30]
Katie describes the broken plea bargaining in Maricopa County [57:00]
The impacts of the Victim's Bill of Rights on public defense [1:03:34]
Hope for change in Arizona [1:14:00]
Resources:
Maricopa County Public Defender
Maricopa County Know Your Rights Podcast
Pinal County Public Defender Office
Arizona communities would 'collapse' without cheap prison labor, Corrections director says
The Invisible Hand of Steve Twist
Arizona Criminal Justice Commission Check out there board and the lack of defense counsel!!
Living United for Change in Arizona (LUCHA)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
Today, Hunter revisited Public Defense in the state of Missouri with a conversation with Mary Fox. Mary is the Director of the Missouri State Public Defender system, and this conversation picks up where Hunter's conversation with ACLU attorney, Anthony Rothert left off.
Back in March, Hunter and Anthony discussed the history of Public Defense in Missouri and why the ACLU brought sued the state for its failure to provide counsel to all who could not afford it. While Hunter highly recommends checking out that episode, it stopped short of talking about the ways in which the Missouri Public Defender's responded to the lawsuits. That's where Mary steps in.
Since the second lawsuit was filed, Mary and the Public Defenders of Missouri have fought and won several key victories for more funding and more staffing. The doom and gloom of the previous episode is no where to be found, as Mary highlights the hope that now fills Missouri Public Defender System!
Guests:
Mary Fox, Director, Missouri State Public Defender
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Mary's Background and journey to being the Director [7:13]
What Mary walked into when she took over in 2020 [13:47]
How Mary was able to win the fight [16:00]
Maintaing the Momentum in Missouri [22:00]
Recruiting new attorneys to come to Missouri [24:45]
How the Death Penalty works in Missouri [29:45]
Tackling the issues around Sexual Violent Offenders [37:59]
Indigency Determination in the State of Missouri [41:50]
Concerns around Municipal Courts in Missouri [49:10]
Fees paid to Contract Attorneys in Missouri [55:20]
Mary's goals for public defense in the future [1:00:28]
Resources:
2021 Missouri Public Defender Annual Report
Missouri lawmakers recognized for legislation supporting court automation, public defenders
Messenger: New fellowship could ease public defender shortage in rural Missouri
Missouri public defenders set to hire 53 attorneys with extra funds in state budget
NO MORE WAITING LIST FOR MISSOURI PUBLIC DEFENDER SYSTEM SERVICES
With fresh state funding, understaffed public defender system looks to hire
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
Today, Hunter sat down with Nick Barber, author of a recent piece in the magazine In These Times called "In Small-Town Georgia, A Broken Taillight Can Lead to Spiraling Debt". In his investigation and writing, Nick uncovered a corrupt private probation system that keeps people under control of the state for years in what appears to be an effort to generate revenue for Clayton, Georgia and for the company.
As is so often the case, Nick highlights the story of two poor people who lives were upended by this abusive system of debt, and it is clear throughout the work that at no point in time did the city ask, "Does this actually improve public safety?" From this episode, Hunter hopes you are able to walk away with a better understanding of the insidious ways in which we have forced small towns around the country have trapped countless Americans in a cycle of poverty through the crushing force of the criminal legal system.
Guests:
Nick Barber, Journalist and Former Investigator for the Southern Center for Human Rights
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Nick's work with the Southern Center for Human Rights and finding this story [7:15]
Nick's advice to those who want to get into Court Watching [11:00]
Background on Clayton, Georgia and Municipal Courts [13:50]
The Impacts of Private Probation on Ms. Lynn Davis [18:10]
Where is the Public Defender in Clayton, Georiga? [27:00]
The Impacts of Judge Sneed on revenue generated through fines and fees [31:38]
How the system trapped a 72 year old woman in years of debt [35:30]
How Georgia tried to address Private Probation [37:30]
How Clayton Georgia worked around the State's remedy [40:00]
Private Probation and Predatory Municipal Finance [44:50]
The impacts of smaller federal spending on small town America [50:00]
Has the private probation system improved [54:30]
Will things change in the state? [58:00]
Resources:
Conditions in a New Mexico Jail
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
Today, Hunter spoke with Sharone Mitchell Jr., Chief Public Defender in Cook County about a few extremely timely topics: Guns and Bail Reform.
Born and raised in Chicago, Sharone understands the needs of his community and you can easily see how his experience helps to inform the way he pushes for and speaks about reform in Cook County. At the center of those pushes are tackling the issue of gun violence in the city without feeding America's addiction to mass incarceration. Hunter really enjoyed the nuanced conversation about the ways in which gun violence and possession can be addressed without further harming poor Black and Hispanic communities in the city.
Lastly, Hunter and Sharone took a deep dive on the newest massive criminal justice reform legislation in Illinois, the Pre Trial Fairness Act, what it does, how it helps, and how people are already blaming it for everything before the Act even goes into effect.
Guests:
Sharone Mitchell Jr., Chief Public Defender, Cook County
Key Topics and Takeaways:
From Growing up in Chicago to Being the Chief Defender [5:30]
What People Misunderstand About Those in the Legal System [9:00]
Why Sharone Wanted to Be a Public Defender [11:00]
Differences and Similarities Between Cook County Public Defense and the Rest of the State [16:05]
The Nuance of the Gun Control Debate [24:00]
The Realities of Gun Restrictions in Cook County [29:00]
Why it is So Difficult to Fight the Status Quo on Gun Possession [38:00]
The Details of the Illinois Pre-Trial Fairness Act [46:50]
Resources:
BRIEF OF THE BLACK ATTORNEYS OF LEGAL AID, THE BRONX DEFENDERS, BROOKLYN DEFENDER SERVICES
6th Amendment Center Report on Illinois
Sharone's Piece in the Nation on the impact of Gun Laws
Sharone on First Person podcast
Recent Op-ed pieceby two Cook County Assistant Public Defenders
Recent Block Club Chicago storyon some of the issues
Recent Injustice Watch storyon even more issues with gun possession charges
Here is a basic overview of the Pretrial Fairness Act. The state is ending money bond on Jan. 1, but there are other important reforms.
Follow the Cook County PD Office on Twitter
Follow Sharone on Twitter
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
Today, Hunter sat down with Lori James-Townes, Executive Director of the largest Public Defense Association in the country, the National Association of Public Defense. After conversations with Jeff Sherr, Heather Hall, and countless other members of NAPD, listeners will likely be familiar with the organization, but Hunter wanted to speak with Lori to highlight a specific aspect of the association and the Public Defense movement at large: it is about more than lawyers. Lori is not an attorney by trade, and her experience in social work reminds us how essential it is to build public defender teams with more than just attorneys in mind.
Without question, zealous advocacy in the court room is the primary focus of Public Defense, but that advocacy can only go so far with a team of strictly lawyers. Paralegals, social workers, investigators, administrative staff, and others, all are essential to maximizing the representation clients can expect to receive. Enjoy this conversation with Lori and Hunter as they explore how to continue to expand the NAPD to cities and states around the country!
Guests:
Lori James-Townes, Executive Director of the National Association of Public Defense
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Lori's Journey to Become the Executive Director [5:58]
What We can Learn from the Brittney Griner Case [17:10]
Why Lori Wanted to be the Executive Director Role [22:30]
Pushing For Policy Reform at the National Level [32:00]
Bridging Gap in the Generational Differences in Public Defenders [36:50]
How to Lift up the Voice of those Impacted by Mass Incarceration [42:51]
Improving Public Defender Media Relations [50:08]
Improving Outreach in Law School and Improving Law School's Curriculum [1:02:08]
Resources:
National Association of Public Defense
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
Today, Hunter sat down with Carlos Martinez, the Chief Defender in the Miami Public Defender Office. With more than 30 years of experience as a Public Defender in Miami, Carlos Martinez has seen a little bit of everything in the office, but his experience extends past the court room. As a native son of Miami, Carlos relies on his personal experiences to help shape his offices outreach into the community. In speaking with Carlos I was struck by the thoughtful manner in which he approaches his responsibilities as an elected official and the importance of being an office that is constantly reaching out into the community.
In this discussion, you'll hear Carlos talk about his early influences that drove him towards public defense, the challenges of staffing and funding shortages that his office currently faces, and much much more!
Guests:
Carlos Martinez, Chief Public Defender, 11th Judicial Circuit of Florida
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How Carlos Got to be the Chief Public Defender [6:22]
Inspiring the Hispanic Community Through Action and Outreach [17:10]
Successes in Community Outreach [23:10]
The Impacts of Being an Elected Official [28:30]
Manning and Funding Shortages [40:47]
Why the Judiciary is so Reluctant for Change [49:30]
Why is There a Shortage of Prosecutors in Miami [55:00]
Sustaining the Victories [58:00]
Resources:
Law Offices of the Miami Public Defender
Consequences of Arrest in Miami
Record Sealing and Expungement
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
www.publicdefenseless.com
If you believed the many legal dramas in TV reflected actual court proceedings, you would be under the impression that our legal system is driven by the battle of wits between two lawyers at trial. If, however, you examine how our legal system operates, you would see that long ago our system became one where trials are rare. Instead, it is the plea bargain sitting at the bedrock of our legal system, but how did this happen? How did our country go from outright rejecting plea bargains so that a jury trial may happen to a country that actively punishes those who seek out a trial?
All that and more is at the forefront of this discussion between Hunter and Professor Carissa Byrne Hessick. Our guest is a law professor at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill and author of the book Punishment Without Trial: Why Plea Bargaining is bad Deal. As the title suggests and as many of my guests know, plea bargaining is likely not the best for the accused, for the alleged victims, or for society at large, but what is lost when we allow justice to be negotiated behind closed doors? Tune in to this episode to find out!
Guests:
Carissa Byrne Hessick, Anne Shea Ransdell and William Garland "Buck" Ransdell, Jr. Distinguished Professor of Law, University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Why Carissa Wanted to Write this Book [6:00]
Carissa's viewpoints on the legal system prior to writing [8:00]
How did Plea Bargaining become so prevalent? [13:37]
How lawyers reacted to the rise of Plea Bargaining [17:00]
Santabello v New York and SCOTUS' endorsement of Plea Bargaining [20:00]
The Trial Penalty [22:00]
The Role of The Chief Justice in Court Admin [25:00]
Picking Apart Arguments for Plea Deals [28:00]
How Plea Deals can Hide the Truth [31:00]
Do Prosecutors have too much power and too many responsibilities? [35:00]
The Stories of Scott Hechinger as a Brooklyn Defender [39:00]
How Arizona circumvents Brady Requirements [45:00]
The Discretionary Nature of our Legal System via Jury Trials [51:00]
"Why Would you Plea Guilty to Something you Didn't Do? [57:00]
How Could Law School do Better? [1:12:00]
What to do about Plea Bargaining [1:20:00]
Resources:
Purchase Punishment Without Trial!!
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Justin Heim - Staff Development Program Specialist (Training Division), Wisconsin State Public Defender - joins this episode to breaks down what a social worker really is and helps us define their role in the legal system.
Trauma is something that is not only affecting the community but the agents working to help as well. Justin believes a renaissance is beginning as our culture accepts that emotional intelligence is an integral part to our functionality, both in and out of the system. Without pausing to process, we can easily endanger our community by not coming into these high risk situations with the compassion they deserve. I hope you leave today with a new perspective of our culture's craving for punishment.
Key Takeaways:
Resources:
Email: HeimJ@opd.wi.gov
Memorable Quotes:
"It has to change because…it's not transactional law, criminal defense is not transactional law, you are working with human beings, human beings who have experienced trauma. You will experience trauma, right? Your colleagues are traumatized. This work takes a lot out of people and we need to acknowledge that."[13:25]
"If we went with law enforcement, they would often let us lead, right, as far as building that rapport and then if it came to that point of like it seems like this isn't safe…almost every single time it was not any confrontation necessary. It might have been against the person's will, they did not want to come but I feel like if the officers are skilled enough and working together with community mental health folks that is really the best situation." [20:37]
"Sometimes when someone is saying "'I don't want to be hospitalized, I don't want to take my medication" previously sometimes they told you "when I say this, please give me my medication, please hospitalize me" right so, it's not as easy as like, the best interest verses what their expressed interest was because sometimes those things get confused depending on the situation." [25:27]
"We are educated to find punishment pleasurable, if we can see another and judge them as wrong, If we have some rules and we know this is right and this is wrong therefor I get to say you're wrong and you should be punished it increases my sense of rightness." [67:40]
Our TOPPODCAST Picks 
