Stay ConnectedAnyone paying attention can tell you that our criminal legal system is perpetuating cruelty and harm, but the complexity of the legal world overwhelms most people simply trying to get through another day.
Public Defenseless explores the rot in the justice system and what we can do about it. Join host, Hunter Parnell, as he interviews top defense attorneys and criminal justice stakeholders from across the country as they pull apart the convoluted web of our criminal justice system.
Today, Hunter spoke with Alec Karakatsanis, Founder and Executive Director of Civil Rights Corps, for a discussion about dismantling America's punishment bureaucracy. With his work at Civil Rights Corps, Alec brought to light the immense human suffering caused by the punishment bureaucracy by highlighting the stories of people caught in it and then pushing massive class action lawsuits.
This model of story collecting, storytelling, and then systemic challenges is one the Alec hopes public defender offices around the country will replicate as the success his organization gets in challenging cash bail becomes more widespread.
However great the successes have been, the bureaucracy will not crumble with a few cuts here and there. Alec, like many of Hunter's previous guests, calls for more systemic level thinking, systemic level challenges, and implores those with exposure to the usual cruelty of our legal system to collect and share those stories. With enough of those stories, Alec believes the heart's and minds of attorney and non-attorney alike will change and embrace a more just, equitable, and fair legal system
Guest:
Alec Karakatsanis, Founder and Executive Director, Civil Rights Corps
Key Topics:
Resources:
Usual Cruelty by Alec Karakatsanis
https://www.amazon.com/Usual-Cruelty-Complicity-Criminal-Injustice/dp/1620975270
Civil Rights Corps
Accountability New York
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
When the whole family is involved, it can make all the difference.
In this episode, Hunter speaks with three inspiring individuals out of Family Representation New York—Parent Advocate Supervisor Teyora Graves-Ferrell, Social Work Supervisor Ysmerlyn Murshed, and Senior Staff Attorney Vasili Stotis.
Each one plays a very specific and important role within their organization, and they explain how they work together to make a positive difference for families in their own ways. Through this, you'll see that specialization can be a strong superpower for everyone involved in public defense.
Then, they'll give you a sneak peek into what public defense is like in New York and the unique challenges it brings. Through the city funding many of Family Representation New York's programs, they are making an investment into the long-term healing of families and the system as a whole.
This is a model that many of the smaller public defense offices are moving towards, and hopefully, with time more of the bigger offices can get the resources they need to put this in place. But for right now, New York serves as the perfect example of how investing in families benefits everyone.
Key Topics/Takeaways:
Guests:
Teyora Graves-Ferrell, Parent Advocate Supervisor
Ysmerlyn Murshed, Social Work Supervisor
Vasili Stotis, Senior Staff Attorney
Resources:
Center for Family Representation New York
Just Making a Change for Families
Is N.Y.'s Child Weldfare System Racist? Some of its own workers say yes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/22/nyregion/nyc-acs-racism-abuse-neglect.html
Memorable Quotes:
"I do this work because at one point in my life, I was a part of this work." (5:57, Teyora)
"Public defense and everything around criminal defense or civil defense and all these things representing people is teamwork. It's a team effort. And when you don't have that team, it doesn't work well." (6:58, Hunter)
"Sometimes we are the first people to listen to our clients' stories without judgment, without blaming or shaming them. So I definitely think that makes a big impact and a big difference on how we are showing up." (19:52, Teyora)
"A lot of the systems in place are racist systems and that can be difficult to express in a courtroom. People don't want to hear that. And even though the systems themselves are built off of these racist policies a lot of judges and a lot of prosecutors don't want to deal with that." (32:09, Vasili)
"Anyone can be impacted. We've represented case workers, we've represented doctors, nurses, parole officers. In some ways, while the system can target certain communities, it doesn't discriminate." (Ysmerlyn, 53:52)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Why do we punish people? What are the goals of punishment and the legal system? At some point in time, we stopped asking ourselves these questions and it led to a legal system that is disjointed, inconsistent, and unnecessarily cruel.
Today, Hunter spoke with Kaelen Perrochet, a Law Student at UCLA Law School, to dig through some of the philosophical underpinnings of any criminal legal system.
For many, people will say that we punish people because it is what they deserve, but what should our legal system look like if that were the actual justification for punishment? For others, we punish people to deter others from committing crimes, but does punishment deter anyone? Rehabilitation and restoration sound good, but can they functionally create a consistent system that people are willing to accept as being legitimate?
All these questions and more will be explored in this awesome episode about the purposes of punishment!
Guest:
Kaelen Perrochet, Law Student, UCLA Law School
Key Topics:
Resources:
Punishment and Inclusion by Andrew Dilts
https://www.amazon.com/Punishment-Inclusion-Membership-American-Liberalism/dp/0823262421
Punishment by Thom Brooks
https://www.amazon.com/Punishment-Thom-Brooks/dp/0415431824
Philosophy of Law: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) by Raymond Wacks
https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Law-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/0199687005
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
@PublicDefenselessPodcast
@PDefenselessPod
Can a managed assigned council system be a workable solution to indigent defense problems?
Jim Bethke is the former executive director of the Texas Indigent Defense Commission and the current director of the Managed Assigned Counsel Office in San Antonio. In this episode, he talks about the system that he helped create and the areas he thinks still need work.
There are three main types of indigent defense representation delivery models: full-time public defender, office contract counsel, and assigned counsel. Texas relies heavily on assigned council, and there are both pros and cons to that. Jim explains why the system is structured this way and its strengths and weaknesses.
Then, he talks about the impressive work he's doing in San Antonio to ensure fair representation for all and the ways his office is supporting behavioral health intervention.
Overall, Jim has an incredibly vast career in public defense and a wealth of knowledge to give. After listening, you'll finally know your take on assigned council in public defense.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Jim Bethke, Director, Managed Assigned Counsel Office, Bexar County, Texas
Resources:
How Lubbock became the model for Indigent Defense
Public Defense Innovation in Texas Law Review
Bexar County Managed Assigned Counsel
Memorable Quotes:
"We are the voice of the poor. They have no voice." (23:00, Jim)
"A managed assigned council program in many regards is more challenging to run than a public defender office because you're utilizing private attorneys. They're independent contractors, and you can encourage and you can promote and you can provide support, but you can't really direct their operations like you can with an employee." (27:33, Jim)
"Some folks in the private bar are not that good, but you have also some incredible talent. And if you can get that incredible talent to participate as part of your either managed assigned or private defender, in some regards, you're going to have even better than a public defender." (35:24, Jim)
"In the numbers that we're dealing with in rural Texas, it's not going to break the bank to get a constitutionally compliant system that's good and fulfills our constitutional and state law requirements." (55:28, Jim)
"Your rights are only as good as you can defend them in a court of law." (56:38, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Can people incarcerated afford to wait for small, gradual change? What happens to the people incarcerated if the system breaks? What is the right balance between the needs of the current case vs the needs of the future case? How do Public Defenders counter the decades long strategy of the Conservative legal movement with their own strategy?
All these questions, and more, are pondered by Hunter and his guest today, Jeff Blackburn. During his career, Jeff worked as a criminal defense attorney, impact litigation lawyer and helped to found and operate the Texas Innocence Project. Through it all, Jeff's aimed to foster and execute a strategic vision for indigent defense and civil liberties that counter's the work of prosecutors and police. In his eyes, public defenders and other justice minded individuals are in the conflict business and the must learn to value the future battles as much as the current ones. To fail to do so will leave them fighting a battle against an enemy that already made the fight unwinnable, but what is the right balance?
Hopefully, this discussion and the myriad of questions that arise from it will spark your own thinking about how to move towards more strategic levels of thinking.
Guest:
Jeff Blackburn, Criminal defense and Impact attorney, Co-Founder, Texas Innocence Project
Key Takeaways:
Resources:
Tulia Case:
https://www.aclu.org/other/racist-arrests-tulia-texas
https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2002-04-19/85638/
https://www.myplainview.com/news/article/5-million-settlement-reached-in-Tulia-lawsuit-8757623.php
https://www.salon.com/2003/04/09/tulia_2/
Tim Cole's Case
https://innocenceproject.org/cases/timothy-cole/
Jeff Calling out Dallas' Wrongful Conviction Issues
Why Jeff Left the Innocence Project
More of Jeff's Work
austinchronicle.com/news/2008-04-04/608555/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
For Public Defenders who serve in coastal areas, the story on toady's show will be all too familiar. As Hurricane Ian barrelled toward the Florida coast, a state of emergency was declared and evacuation plans started to come together, but as is almost always the case, no one thought of those incarcerated.
Today, Hunter spoke with Kathy Smith, Chief Public Defender in the 20th Judicial District of Florida, to discuss the impacts of the storm on those left in jail. Dating as far back as memory allows, state's failed their obligations to protect the lives of people both in and out of jail when natural disasters strike, and Hurricane Ian was no exception. For days, people, many of whom were in jail simply because they could not afford to pay bail, lived with raw sewage and without clean drinking water.
Luckily, no one died from the state's neglect, but this episode serves as a powerful warning and reminder for those with a duty to protect people's lives: when a natural disaster strikes, remember the people who cannot evacuate and think of a way to keep them alive.
Guest:
Kathy Smith, Chief Public Defender, 20th Judicial District, Florida
Key Takeaways:
Resources:
USA Today Coverage of those left behind after Ian
People left in prison during:
Hurricane Ike, Maria, Matthew, Irene etc.
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
How can journalists and public defenders work together to bring awareness to the real issues plaguing our court system? Today, Hunter spoke with Maggie Shepard, Director of Communications at the New Mexico Law Offices of the Public Defender, to discuss how public defenders can use media relations to deepen their connection with the community they are working to protect.
A policy can only be effective if it has adequate momentum behind it and with most offices unwilling to comment publicly, it makes it difficult for the public to fully grasp the issues. There is a lot of bureaucracy in our court system but it does serve a purpose, to protect the rights of the accused. Everytime a public defender refuses to make a comment they miss the opportunity to highlight the deeper issues surrounding the case, which can be done while honoring the anonymity of the client.
Today's conversation highlights the real need for communication between the public and the courts and between journalists and public defenders.
Guest:
Maggie Shepard, Director of Communications, New Mexico Law Offices of the Public Defender
Key Takeaways:
Resources:
Contact Maggie
maggie.shepard@lopdnm.us
Contact Heather at NAPD
heather@publicdefenders.us
https://www.lopdnm.us/media-ipra/
Memorable Quotes:
"I was tired of being part of the propaganda machine, honestly, I was tired of playing a harmful role in the narratives that I was telling, so I left my job." [8:19] -Shepard
"There is a desire, within the department, within the attorneys, to learn how to do this better and there is very clearly a need in the community to have better access to the public defense world and for the information we have as public defenders to get out into the world, into our communities." [9:27] -Shepard
"There's not a lot of thoughtfulness beyond what's in front of me, the actors and the actions and that's what we focus on. We might call into question the after and the action but we're not calling into question the machine, the bigger power structure that's there." [14:50] -Shepard
"Good policy, not heard by anybody, isn't good policy.It's just a good idea that nobody heard and that's where I think a lot of public defenders and people who want to push these policies fail to understand that policy gets pushed when people hear about it and apply pressure." [39:14] -Parnell
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
When does a victim become a suspect? Very often, our legal system cares about someone's status as a victim when it allows the system to incarcerate someone. As soon as you stand in that goal, any harm done to you matters not.
On today's episode, Hunter spoke with Alexandra Bailey, Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment at the Sentencing Project, to discuss the ways our legal system punishes Domestic Violence Survivors. Specifically, they dive deep into the "Failure to Protect laws" that showcase the latent sexism prevalent in our legal system and the twisted ways in which prosecutors ignore self defense claims when it aids their goal of securing higher conviction rates.
While some states offer hope at a future where these cases are not happening around the country, places like Oklahoma remind us there is a long uphill battle that people like Alexandra are at the forefront of to end our brutally harsh punishment bureaucracy.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Alexandra Bailey, Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment, Sentencing ProjectResources:
Sentencing Project DVSJA Bill News
She never hurt her kids. So why is she in prison?
Memorable Quotes:
"It doesn't really matter the circumstances. Women are seen by the legal system as being less credible." (12:25, Alexandra)
"As of 2020, 47 out of every 100,000 women were in prison, so this is not a failure of any one particular individual. This is the failure of a system that has not provided what families need in order to succeed." (17:50, Alexandra)
"God bless the public defenders of America because they are so frequently trying to explain trauma to deaf ears. So shout out to all of them." (29:30, Alexandra)
"There's no shame in improving things. There is no shame in going back and learning and growing. We do it as individuals. There's no reason that this system can't do it too." (36:32, Alexandra)
"This system takes tools with good intention and wields them in the worst possible way." (39:11, Alexandra)
"I think we need to start looking at situations as tragedies as opposed to an opportunity to nail someone." (47:12, Alexandra)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Today, Hunter sat down once again with Doug Wilson, Chief Public Defender in the Aurora Municipal Public Defender Office, to discuss what has unfolded in Aurora, Colorado over the past year. Often, people will ask the question, "Why do you think we don't fund Public Defender Offices the way we should?" While there are many potential answers to that question, this episode highlights one of the most important ones: Policy makers have an exponentially more tough time incarcerating people when there is a zealous advocate both in and out of the court room for the rights of the accused.
Starting back to last year, the Aurora Public Defender Office has been instrumental in highlighting the misconduct and illegal activity of the prosecution and police of the city. At the same time, the city council marched on towards its mission to incarcerate as many people as possible in a misguided effort to make their community safer. At every step of the way, Doug and his office have been pushing back against the city's goals.
Now it seems, the city is tired of the pushback. Tune in to hear how the city is attempting to use the language of cost efficiency to mask their true intentions: dismantling the most powerful advocate against their march towards increased incarceration.
Guests:
Doug Wilson, Chief Public Defender, Aurora, Colorado Municipal Public Defender Office
Key Topics and Takeaways:
The City Attorney's Brady violations and the PDO's role in exposing them [8:22]
How does the PDO impede the goal of the city council [20:41]
How did the city support its mandatory minimum sentencing [25:13]
Is the city council now seeking to dismantle the office? [30:20]
The response from the community [38:03]
The media's failure to cover this topic [44:30]
Why the fiscal efficiency argument is bogus [52:00]
What is next for Aurora [59:25]
Resources:
Aurora city attorneys review, notify impacted defendants of lacking 'Brady letters'
Aurora lawmakers give 1st OK to mandatory jail time for shoplifting, despite lack of cost data
Aurora lawmakers impose mandatory 3 days in jail for shoplifting more than $300
Impacts of Mandatory Minimum Sentencing:
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/end-mandatory-minimums
ACLU Report on Municipal Courts Colorado
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Thanks to the 1963 case of Brady v. Maryland, prosecutors are supposed to give the defense attorneys any evidence that may be beneficial to the defense's case. Despite this requirement, police misconduct has been allowed to fester for decades as prosecutors and judges openly flaunt their mandates share this evidence. Furthermore, the legal profession itself fails to police prosecutors and judges who allow the misdeeds of police to go unchecked. This entire cycle calls into question decades worth of prosecutions because of potential failures to disclose evidence, but what can be done if everyone in the system is playing a role in allowing the corruption to continue?
This week, Hunter spoke with Johann Drolshagen, to answer that very question. Johann is the CEO of Level Playing Field solutions, and has helped to create a nationwide, publicly accessible database, called the brady list, to make it easier for communities to report and track misconduct by police, prosecutors, and judges. By bringing this information into the light of day, Johann hopes to combat the corruption gripping millions of Americans trapped in our criminal legal system.
Guests:
Johann Drolshagen, CEO Level Playing Field Solutions
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How Johann got Involved in the criminal legal system reform movement [6:40]
What is Brady [14:00]
How widespread is the issue? [14:40]
How police, prosecutors, and judges skirt Brady requirements [19:00]
The issues with attorneys policing attorneys [26:00]
What is the driving force behind these issues [30:00]
How the Brady List holds the powerful to account [32:00]
The issues facing Missouri and Oklahoma [42:53]
How to cut through the institutional hurdles [1:01:00]
Do people care about Due Process? [1:05:55]
What have the positive impacts of the list been? [1:10:35]
Resources:
Citizens Overseeing Police Oklahoma
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
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