Stay ConnectedAnyone paying attention can tell you that our criminal legal system is perpetuating cruelty and harm, but the complexity of the legal world overwhelms most people simply trying to get through another day.
Public Defenseless explores the rot in the justice system and what we can do about it. Join host, Hunter Parnell, as he interviews top defense attorneys and criminal justice stakeholders from across the country as they pull apart the convoluted web of our criminal justice system.
Heather Cessna, executive director of the Kansas Board of Indigent Services, is dedicated to positively transforming public defense in her state. Since she's come on board, the quality of services has drastically increased as well as the working conditions for public defenders.
In this episode, you'll learn the structure of the Kansas Indigent Defense System, its current problems, and recent wins within the state. Heather has successfully reformed much of the system, and she'll walk you through her methods and tactics.
This episode proves the difference it makes when an indigent defense system has strong leaders. In her time as executive director, Heather has quickly moved the system in the right direction.
There might still be a long way to go, but Heather brings to this episode a breath of fresh air and a sense of much-needed optimism.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Heather Cessna, Executive Director, Kansas Board of Indigent Defense Services
Resources:
Kansas Board of Indigent Defense Services
Kansas Well Being Committee Work
Memorable Quotes:
"When we understand the failings and successes of other states, we can leverage that in our own." (3:44, Hunter)
"If you can't refuse cases, you should be able to." (28:54, Hunter)
"We have a lack of attorneys problem in Kansas generally. We do not have enough counsel in some of our counties to handle the volume of cases that we have." (34:06, Heather)
"It does us absolutely no good to pretend like we don't have problems." (40:05, Heather)
"I often tell people if you think the adult level representation or system is struggling, I promise you the juvenile one is probably doing worse." (1:04:55, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Today, Hunter is joined by two guests hoping their lawsuit against the state of Wisconsin will bring vital changes to the State's Public Defender System. Hank Schultz and John Birdsall have a combined experience of more than 40 years of working as criminal defense attorneys in Wisconsin. Through this experience, they are acutely aware of the history of inadequate pay for contract counsel and tough on crime policies that have pushed indigent defense to a state of crisis.
For decades, the state of Wisconsin paid the attorneys willing to serve as contract counsel for indigent clients a paltry rate of $40 per hour. At that rate, attorneys could not even cover the cost of overhead, and that rate did not change from 1995 until 2020. As a result of these low rates, less and less attorneys were willing to take on cases. Meanwhile, more people were forced to wait months and months just to speak to an attorney. In doing so, the state flagrantly violated the right to counsel and right to speedy trial of countless people, and yet, even raise to $70 per hour the state implemented in 2020 was nowhere close to addressing the magnitude of the problem.
Despite the main issue the state faces being the low pay for contract counsel, Hank and John have sought a creative remedy in their lawsuit. By the end of this episode, you will have a clear understanding of how the state ended being sued, why a lawsuit was necessary, and the potential ways other state's may be able to learn from this case!!
Guests:
Hank Schultz, Retired Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Contract Counsel Wisconsin Public Defense
John Birdsall, Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Contract Counsel Wisconsin Public Defense
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How Hank and John got Involved in Public Defense in Wisconsin [9:20]
Structural Issues with Wisconsin Public Defense [17:20]
How long has Attorney Pay been an Issue in the State [21:17]
History of the Tough on Crime Policies of Wisconsin [24:35]
Attorney Shortages Around the State [29:20]
Goals of the Lawsuit [39:28]
Explaining the Strategy of the Lawsuit [43:10]
Response from the State [50:30]
Response from the Public Defender's Office [54:33]
Resources:
History of Low Pay for Contract Counsel
More Insight into Low Pay in Wisconsin
Class action lawsuit calls out lack of state public defenders
Rural Defendants Sue Wisconsin over Indigent Defense
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Are public defense unions the solution to reform?
In this episode, Hunter speaks with Sam Allison-Natale, Executive Director of the Kansas Holistic Defenders, and Bob Kolstad, a public defender in Hennepin County, Minnesota.
They'll walk you through everything you need to know about public defense unions and the philosophy behind them. Giving you a behind-the-scenes view, you'll learn the realities behind unions, the goals, and why they are necessary.
Then, Bob and Sam will discuss collective organizing and the ethics around it. They'll share how they mobilize public defenders and how they get past the individualistic society of today.
With their endless enthusiasm, Bob and Sam share a refreshing vision of unity and hope.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Sam Allison-Natale, Executive Director, Kansas Holistic Defenders
Bob Kolstad, Public Defender, Hennepin County, Minnesota
Resources:
Public defenders vote to strike; justice system could come to a halt
Minnesota's top public defender reappointed over objections from rank-and-file
Minnesota's public defenders vote no confidence in agency head
The Secrets of a Successful Organizer
Michelle Alexander Plea Deal Strike
Email Bob
Email Sam
Memorable Quotes:
"The weakness of unions generally in Kansas is something that affects the shape of Kansas politics across the board." (23:36, Sam)
"The public defense system is under duress. I mean, severe duress." (24:50, Bob)
"This discussion about collective action versus individual action, and the fact that everybody is stuck in an individual mindset is what allows the system to function." (33:00, Sam)
"The fact is that organizing for a strike, building a credible strike threat can get people really, really far in fighting for the kinds of things that they need to have." (40:39, Bob)
"I think that we are in a situation of such dire need that people want to be invited into a struggle for something greater." (43:13, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
This week, Hunter speaks with Olayemi Olurin—a political commentator, writer, activist, and public defender out of the New York Legal Aid Society. She has spent her career advocating for systematic change and brings with her a powerful perspective on the criminal justice system.
There are many common lies and misconceptions that circulate about public defense, reform efforts, and the criminal justice system as a whole. Olayemi will refute these lies and give you an inside glimpse into the true reality of the complicated legal system by walking you through the everyday injustices she faces.
She'll talk about her outreach work and the tactics she uses to change the perspectives of both stakeholders and the general public about why reform is important. Olayemi is dedicated to improving advocacy on a systematic level to combat negative and untrue narratives.
Olayemi dreams of a day when public defenders can truly be the voice of their clients. With her energy and passion, she is carving the path for change.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Olayemi Olurin, Public Defender, New York Legal Aid Society
Resources:
https://www.olayemiolurin.com/
Olayemi's appearance on The Young Turks
Eric Adams' POLICE STATE Is The Future Democrats Want, But Their Voters DON'T: Olayemi Olurin
Eric Adams' INCOMPETENT Rikers' Deaths Response Is An ATTACK On Due Process
Memorable Quotes:
"It's woefully insufficient for the black community to be, to be as overrepresented as we are in terms of incarceration, but underrepresented in the profession. We make a maybe 5% of attorneys." (11:39, Olayemi)
"I'm more concerned in shifting public consciousness. It doesn't matter to me what other attorneys think." (18:12, Olayemi)
"My emotional feeling in a state of when somebody pisses you off should not be a reflection of what our criminal system is or the larger consequences at the end of the day." (27:52, Olayemi)
"That's the problem. It's a society that's really just galvanized around whiteness and policing black and brown bodies." (35:27, Olayemi)
"The reality is, the only way power is maintained is by subjugating somebody else." (38:41, Olayemi)
"People often bring the criminal system into their lives because they don't understand how it works." (55:13, Olayemi)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Today on the show, Hunter is joined by David Pelletier, a Project Director in the Justice for Veterans division of the National Association of Drug Court Professionals, to discuss Veteran Treatment Courts. Founded by a lone judge in Buffalo, New York, Veteran Treatment Courts follow in the 30+ year tradition of broader treatment courts. These courts all seek to offer alternatives to incarceration that drive towards the root causes of someone's involvement with the criminal legal system through a culturally competent lens.
For Veteran's Treatment Court, the goal is to offer veterans suffering with acute medical needs a path towards recovery through a process that saves them from lengthy counter productive prison stints. As David shares, these individualized courts that drive at eliminating the root causes that landed someone tied up with the legal system. Yet while the success of the courts is not in question, the courts offer much more for communities to consider.
In many places, communities find themselves holding two thing ideals: they should be tough on crime, but they should also be caring to their veteran populations, and this is where Veteran Treatment Courts have so much potential. By adopting Veteran Treatment Courts, these communities are exposed to the power of viewing each person through a holistic and individualized lens. Hopefully, this may lead communities to consider other treatment courts or even expanding access to care before someone ever becomes entangled with the legal system.
After this conversation, you will hopefully walk away feeling inspired to think about the ways you could help kickstart similar non-carceral interventions in your own community!!
Guests:
David Pelletier, Project Director, National Association of Drug Court Professionals, Justice For Veterans Division, Marine Corps Veteran
Key Topics and Takeaways:
David's journey from the Marine Corps to Justice for Veterans [5:38]
What is Veteran Treatment Court? [8:28]
Why do we need a Veteran Treatment Court [14:37]
How can Veteran Treatment Court help criminal justice reform more broadly? [28:40]
How to start a Veteran Treatment Court and what are the benefits of doing so [32:45]
How to represent and relate to a veteran in the legal profession [43:00]
Generational Differences and ongoing issues amongst the Veteran Community [46:40]
Resources:
Justice for Veterans Website State of The American Veteran Survey Search for Veteran Status Brock Hunter Special Considerations for Representing Veterans Brock Hunter's guide to representing Veterans Porter V. McCollum, 558 US 30 – Supreme Court 2009 A lawyer provides ineffective assistance of counsel if he or she does not investigate a client's military service and present aspects of it as potential mitigating factors.12 The Court held that not only was it relevant that the veteran-defendant had "extensive combat experience" and had "served honorably under extreme hardship and gruesome conditions," but also "that the jury might find mitigating the intense stress and mental and emotional toll that combat took" on the defendant. One of Hunter's former guests, Travis Wiener is helped with the making of this really awesome documentary. While it is not in any way affiliated with the Veterans for Justice group, Hunter felt like it was a powerful resource for people to gain insight onto some of the challenges Iraq and Afghanistan veterans face.
Meatgrinder Documentary Website: https://www.meatgrinderdoc.com
Youtube channel: Follow David on Twitter Email David:
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Every minute of the full conversation with Andrea Lyon is available to listen to, but Hunter wanted to make sure everyone had an easy time accessing the last 30 minutes of the conversation where the discuss a potential Office of the Defender General at the Federal Level!
Guests:
Andrea Lyon, Capital Defense Attorney, Former Capital Public Defender, Author, Educator, and Former Dean of Valparaiso Law School
Resources:
Office of Defender General Website
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Dubbed by the Chicago Tribune as "The Angel of Death Row", Andrea Lyon is one of the most successful Capital Case Public Defenders in the country, but she is so much more than that. As an author, educator, former law school dean, and advocate for criminal justice reform, there is next to nothing that Andrea has not done in her career.
On today's episode, Hunter and Andrea discuss her experience as a Capital Public Defender, in Academia, and most importantly, her push to create the Office of the Defender General at the State Level. There are many reasons why it is essential to create the office, but none may be more important than the desperate for Public Defenders and the defense bar to play a larger role in policy decisions at the federal level.
It is so important that Hunter pulled out that section of the conversation and released it as its own episode. If you want to hear Andrea's thoughts on the Office of the Defender General you can find it at the end of this one or on the other episode released today. However you go about it, it is essential to hear Andrea out and begin thinking seriously about pushing for deeper systemic changes to our legal system.
Guests:
Andrea Lyon, Capital Defense Attorney, Former Capital Public Defender, Author, Educator, and Former Dean of Valparaiso Law School
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How did Andrea Start off in this Work [8:30]
Things that Stood Out in Andrea's Career as a Capital Public Defender [10:45]
Andrea's motivation for staying active in Capital Representation [20:47]
The arguments that helped Andrea be a success in Capital Representation [24:45]
How can Law school Improve the way it teaches the practice of law vs the theory of law [34:40]
The need for the Defender General [51:21]
How RICO is used and abused and how a Defender General could have stopped similar policies from being implemented [54:30]
How the Defender General would Operate [1:01:00]
Resources:
Office of Defender General Website
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
In this episode, I speak with three inspiring individuals: Michelle Sages, a Lead Deputy State Public Defender of the Denver Trial Office, Travis Weiner, a Deputy State Public Defender of the Greeley Regional Office, and James Hardy, a Lead Deputy Public Defender in the Appellate Division of the Colorado State Public Defender.
Together, they speak on The Defender's Union of Colorado and why it's essential to have a public service union. Then, they go into how they have been working with both state officials and the general public to gain support for their cause.
They'll wipe away all misconceptions about public service unions and prove that despite the criticisms, a union is beneficial for everyone involved.
Even though Colorado is in the top 5 states with the strongest public defense system, there is still a long way to go. Public service employees are still drastically underpaid and overworked, while clients are not receiving fair access to representation.
Michelle, Travis, and James are actively advocating for a system that ensures public service employees can keep up with the requirements of their job while clients can get the help they desperately need. With their passion for transforming the system, Colorado public defense has a much brighter future.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Michelle Sages, Lead Deputy State Public Defender, Denver Trial Office
Travis Weiner, Deputy State Public Defender, Greeley Regional Office
James Hardy, Lead Deputy Public Defender, Appellate Division, Colorado State Public Defender
Resources:
Polis, Democratic lawmakers and local governments are all squaring off over public bargaining rights
Colorado's public defenders launch union drive for lawyers and support staff. But there's a catch.
"Highly Overworked and Grossly Underpaid": Why Public Defenders Launched a Union
Memorable Quotes:
"If we can't do this work without all of us, we need to improve the conditions for all of us." (13:16, Travis)
"I think a lot of people leave because they believe that the work is so important and they find themselves unable to do it in a satisfactory way within the system." (18:31, Michelle)
"Our goal as a union is to provide the best client representation we possibly can and to ensure effective representation for all of our clients and where we feel like that our system is falling short is in retention and creating a sustainable career path for folks, which long term hurts our clients' representation." (29:30, James)
"One of the problems with the revolving door system is oftentimes for supervisor positions, it's not who's the most qualified or the best fit, it's who's up next, Is that the best way to train the next generation of public defenders? Is that the best way to select someone that brand new public defenders are gonna look to and model after? I don't think so." (37:52, James)
"Everybody knows it is a totally open secret that it is a completely unconstitutional, dysfunctional system and people are not getting the representation that they deserve and need." (43:57, Travis)
"The system does not work if every gear in it is not functioning properly." (1:06:26, Travis)
"Having a system that's not functioning well does not benefit victims of these crimes either." (1:08:17, Michelle)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
The Oregon Public Defender System is broken. Due to a shortage of attorneys willing to take on the cases, hundreds of people wait for months without ever having an attorney appointed to their case. During this wait, they are often required to return to court to mandate another hearing because attorneys are not available to take the case. With each passing day, evidence grows harder to find, the memories of potential witnesses fade away, and whatever trust the accused had in the legal system withers and dies.
To help Hunter understand how this crisis consumed Oregon Public Defense, he spoke with Chris O'Connor, a Public Defender at the Metropolitan Public Defender in Multnomah County Oregon. After 20 years as a Public Defender, Chris is the perfect guest to help understand the history and decisions leading up to the crisis.
As he reveals, report after report over the years have continuously showcased the many failings of the overly complex, contract based public defender system. Yet despite the issues being obvious, the legislature and the judiciary continued to allow the issue to fester. This episode is a must listen if you want to best understand the uphill battle the Public Defenders in Oregon are facing!
Guests:
Chris O'Connor, Public Defender, Metropolitan Public Defender Office, Multnomah County Oregon
Key Topics and Takeaways:
How did Chris start off as a PD [8:11]
Structure and History of Oregon Public Defense [10:21]
Findings and Impacts of the Sixth Amendment Center [14:30]
Why does the contract model still persist in Oregon? [20:48]
Can this system work? [25:15]
Impacts of Drug Decriminalization [28:45]
How this crisis has been framed by the media and the lack of accountability by the judiciary and the legislature [31:44]
Why do people have to come to court 12 times just to have a case dismissed [38:55]
The judicial cowardice problem [40:00]
The impacts of the attorney shortage [42:00]
The judicial coup that hit the PDSC [53:00]
What can be done [1:02:00]
Resources:
Multnomah County Public Defender
Vice Investigative Reporting on Public Defender Crisis
'No sense of justice': Hundreds cycling through Oregon courts without public defenders
Oregon Public Defense Law Suit
ABA Report on Oregon Public Defense
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
What is the true impact of fines and fees?
In this episode, I speak with two inspiring individuals—Adam Danneman, the Chief Public Defender of Jefferson County, Alabama, and Leah Nelson, the Research Director of Alabama Appleseed. They bring with them two unique perspectives and a boatload of passion for public defense.
Alabama does not have a universal indigent defense system and there is no obligation for any county in the state to operate a specific type of public defender system. Together, Adam and Leah talk about the specific challenges that this setup creates and how they work within this system.
Overall, Adam and Leah give advice to people who don't live in the south on how to move past their preconceived notions. After this episode, you'll look at southerners in an entirely new way!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Adam Danneman, Chief Public Defender, Jefferson County, Alabama,
Leah Nelson, Research Director, Alabama Appleseed
Resources:
Jefferson County Public Defender
Memorable Quotes:
"Do not leave behind the south, do not leave behind Alabama because you think it is not worth helping." (7:15, Hunter)
"Making sure that people have qualified counsel is a high priority for me and for Apple Seed, but it's not a high priority for our legislature." (16:30, Leah)
"One fair negative stereotype about public defenders, not just in Alabama, but everywhere, is that we're overworked." (33:08, Adam)
"Pretty much every crime in Alabama comes with some financial penalty on top of maybe jail or prison time." (39:11, Leah)
"We really undermine public safety and we undermine the independent judiciary and independent prosecution system when we force prosecutors and the courts to generate revenue for the state." (53:46, Leah)
"We spend more money in Alabama, probably everywhere to collect this debt than it actually brings in if we recovered all." (1:05:10, Adam)
Contact Hunter Parnell:hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
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