Stay ConnectedAnyone paying attention can tell you that our criminal legal system is perpetuating cruelty and harm, but the complexity of the legal world overwhelms most people simply trying to get through another day.
Public Defenseless explores the rot in the justice system and what we can do about it. Join host, Hunter Parnell, as he interviews top defense attorneys and criminal justice stakeholders from across the country as they pull apart the convoluted web of our criminal justice system.
Ready to hear about a different type of law?
So far, we've spoken to many public defenders who have done work on the trial level, but today I talk to someone who can take you into the nuances of appellate law.
In this episode, I speak with Frances Brown: a former appellate public defender, former Chief Administrative Officer of the Colorado State Public Defender Office, and a current member of the Aurora Public Defender Commission.
Frances brings a wealth of knowledge with her about what really goes into appellate law and the unique types of arguments that can be made.
She is also a veteran of the legal industry, so she'll take you through what she has seen around the growth of women in the legal profession.
Lastly, Frances shares key insight into what goes into the policies and practices of the Public Defender Commissions.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Frances Brown, Former Chief Administrative Officer of Colorado State Public Defender Office, Current Member of the Aurora Public Defender Commission
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
"I love my job. And I always did. And I do feel very blessed for that." (18:26, Frances)
"The main thing about appellate law is everything you do is based on the record." (19:49, Frances)
"The biggest part of being a public defender is the ability to go to court." (40:19, Frances)
"I felt very strongly for many, many years that the public defender system would benefit tremendously from having social workers." (41:44, Frances)
"I am an expert in an area of law that nobody needs to be an expert in, which is conflict of interest in public defender offices." (49:07, Frances)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
Aisha McWeay is a former public defender and the Executive Director of Still She Rises, the first holistic defense office in the country dedicated exclusively to the representation of mothers in both the criminal and civil legal systems.
Today's episode brings to light the unique challenges that mothers face as they navigate the complicated legal world they face in the greater Tulsa community.
Still She Rises stands out as an organization that seeks to use the skills of a broad team of attorneys, social workers, client advocates, and community resources specialists to get the needs of each of their clients met.
While Aisha and her team take this holistic approach to reach the best possible outcomes for their clients, Aisha and I discussed the many shortfalls that Public Defense in Oklahoma faces because of decades of underfunding.
Of all the takeaways from this episode, Aisha I think best lays out just what holistic defense looks like in practice, and acts as an example to those that think progress cannot happen in a place like Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Note: This episode was recorded on March 17th 2022
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Aisha McWeay, Executive Director of Still She Rises
Resources:
George Kaiser Family Foundation
Memorable Quotes:
"That got me to be so interested in interning with the public defender's office, and quite frankly, I fell in love with the work. I fell in love with representing clients. I fell in love with trying to use my skills to help humanize and tell the client's story." (8:47, Aisha)
"As a whole, particularly in America, public interest-driven law is the minority." (17:10), Aisha)
"There's so many things that happen that aren't criminal, that are impacting the lives that then get people to criminal." (25:24, Hunter)
"When someone is arrested, they should be able to have some say in who is representing them." (29:51, Aisha)
"An attorney, despite what some of them say is not always the smartest person in the room, in every single topic." (44:49, Hunter)
"Ultimately the call on whether someone can or can't do a thing is not up to us as their attorney. It is up to us to certainly give them as much information as possible to make really honest and informed decisions." (50:46, Aisha)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
In Philadelphia, a whopping 70% of people arrested are represented by public defenders.
In this episode, I speak with Keisha Hudson, the Chief Defender of the Philadelphia Defender Association.
She walks me through the ins and outs of the indigent defense system in Pennsylvania, and how she deals with the lack of funding and support from the legislature.
Pennsylvania stands as one of the only states that provides 0 funding to Public Defenders at the trial level. This lack of funding often forces public defenders to fight the county governments for desperately needed funding. In our conversation, Keisha shares with us her fight for funding in Montgomery County.
Despite the lack of funding, Keisha will show us how she is able to lead the Philadelphia Defender Association to be renowned as one of the best offices in the state despite the lack of support.
With her expertise and passion, Keisha was a fantastic guest to discuss the challenging cases Public Defenders can face and how failing to fund Public Defense rested at the heart of the Kids for Cash Scandal in Luzerne County.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Keisha Hudson, Chief Defender Philadelphia Defender Association
Resources:
Pennsylvania Committee on racial and Gender and Bias in the Justice System
Task Force and Advisory Committee on Services to Indigent Criminal Defendants
Lawsuit Against Luzerne County
Memorable Quotes:
"If you are looking to do public defense and you want to learn how to be an incredible trial lawyer, then come to Philadephia. We have earned and enjoyed a reputation for our zealous advocacy in and out of the courtroom." (1:58, Keisha)
"We are appointed in every case where someone cannot afford counsel. And when you have an office that's not funded and resourced, it presents a significant constitutional challenge in meeting those requirements of zealous and effective advocacy." (5:29, Keisha)
"You can find something redeeming about every human being." (18:02, Keisha)
"I think if you balance the scales and if you have a well-funded, well-resourced public defender office who can push those issues and not fear political repercussions from county commissioners or from the bench, you are able to make a better impact." (36:54, Keisha)
"If we truly prevent crime and lower crime rates and impact public safety, then we need to reinvest in solutions we know work and in a robust social safety net." (47:44, Keisha)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
In today's episode, I speak with Stephen Hanlon, who has been working for over 30 years to drive forward public interest law.
With the depth of his experience to back him up, he'll explain how data is the key to pushing forward legislation and law suits that can help to reshape and empower public defense.
When advocating for a change to any system, there has to be mutli-faceted approaches. Some people respond well to the emotional stories. For others, it is data they find the most compelling, and that is what Stephen brings to the table. Data to help bolster the compelling stories of defenders and their clients from around the country.
Stephen Hanlon holds a tremendous amount of wisdom and his passion for bettering the system will inspire you to take action!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Stephen Hanlon, a leader in Public Interest Law over the last 50 years
Resources:
State of Louisiana v Covington
Memorable Quotes:
"Are we willing to live in a society that reflects the principles that we say we value?" (5:56, Hunter)
"I want a lever. I want to be the leveraging force to incentivize and indeed force change." (13:01, Stephen)
"The whole problem with this thing is that there's no business plan for the criminal processing system. We should have never agreed to do this." (27:14, Stephen)
"Without an adequate defense lawyer, a court is not properly constituted." (31:36, Stephen)
"Implore your representatives to ask questions besides guns and abortions." (39:06, Hunter)
"The federal is the floor, the states are the ceiling. Go for the ceiling!" (40:06, Stephen)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
In this special solo episode, I share some thoughts on the first 16 episodes, thoughts from my interactions with people who have reached out, and the direction the show will be going over the next few points
I wanna first thank all the people who have gone through the system who have reached out for help/advice/or to share your story. This project is designed to correct the system so that it helps people like yourself, so thank you!
In light of the nomination hearings for soon to be Justice Jackson, I was yet again struck by the fear of being soft on crime. As I discusss in this episode, the Constitution, the bedrock of the American legal system is incredibly soft on crime. I talk a lot about how we manage our desire for justice and the obligations to protect the rights of people.
Lastly, I cover the danger I see in our legal system continuing to march away from jury trials and instead towards plea deals.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Memorable Quotes:
"The most consistent thing I hear from people who reach out to me is the mistrust in the indigent defense with public defenders." (1:49, Hunter)
"If our founding fathers wanted to make a harsh on crime policy, a pro-police constitution, I'm going to tell you they couldn't have done a worse job of doing it." (9:55, Hunter)
"The theme is so clear, ladies and gentleman, that we are no longer a system of trials. We are a system of plea deals, and I do not think that bet drives us in the correct direction." (21:29, Hunter)
"If you want public defenders to be better, it's good to have supervision in a lot of cases and have supervising attorneys who have that guiding hand and the knowledge to help people make more informed decisions." (34:48, Hunter)
"If you actually look at the living wage standard in most states and most communities, we don't come anywhere close to giving attorneys to all the people who cannot actually afford them." (46:41, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
16: South Dakota Public Defense w/ Tim Rensch & Bob Pesall
South Dakota is like many states around the country in that there are some public defender offices in the "cities," but the rest of the state is served through an assigned council system.
Today, I talk to two incredibly experienced and knowledgeable assigned councils in the state: Tim Rensch and Bob Pesall.
Each shares a different perspective on public defense in South Dakota, Tim being in an urban area and Bob being in a rural one.
With few outside evaluations of public defense in the state, we go through the nuances and strengths of the system in South Dakota.
Tim and Bob are two extraordinary examples of assigned councils that go above and beyond for their clients and truly care about the quality of the system.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Tim Rensch, President Rensch Law Corporation, South Dakota Assigned Counsel,
Bob Pesall, Assigned Counsel, Flanders South Dakota
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
"I've never called myself a public defender. I always have said I'm a court-appointed lawyer and I've always had great admiration for the public defenders who work the ins and outs of the court system every day." (7:21, Tim)
"It can be a little tricky when you try and weigh the cost-benefit of getting lawyers on board versus the actual seriousness of the case." (17:11, Bob)
"So the judges really, truly want to get people what they need. They just don't want to be burning money on experts that are useless." (25:44, Bob)
"I think meth is a horrible drug. It's the only drug for which you've never heard anybody advocate socially about any useful benefit whatsoever. And it's a shame what happens." (34:25, Tim)
"I think people are indigent. That means that they don't have the money to hire a lawyer. And to me, it does seem unfair to take somebody who is defined as indigent and then force them to pay these attorney's fees. No matter the outcome." (39:47, Tim)
"I think that there are good experiences and bad experiences. The experiences that I've had, and that I'm aware of are mostly good. People want defendants to be represented. They want them to be represented by good lawyers. They don't want to have to redo things three times. And generally, the thought is, is that the system wants to be fair and be good to people." (51:14, Tim)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
The Missouri public defense system has been shaped by lawsuits that the ACLU has brought forth.
Meet Anthony Rothert, one of the individuals behind those lawsuits.
Anthony is the Director of Integrated Advocacy at the American Civil Liberties Union of Missouri and is here today to give you the inside scoop on the cases.
You'll learn the ins and outs of the indigent system in this state, from long wait times to high public defender turnover rates.
This episode will leave you with renewed hope that there are people out there working tirelessly to positively change the system for good.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Anthony Rothert, Director of Integrated Advocacy, American Civil Liberties Union of Missouri
Resources:
Michael Barret Letter to Gov Nixon
2014 ABA Missouri Workload Study
Memorable Quotes:
"Part of the reason attorneys leave is they're overworked, they are not satisfied by their work because they don't have time to do as good a job as they would like. And they're not even paid well for it." (15:24, Anthony)
"Defendants are faced with a choice. You can proceed without counsel, or you can wait." (38:57, Anthony)
"We will be asking the court to enter a judgment in the case requiring the state to provide enough money so we don't have waitlists." (42:02, Anthony)
"We could decriminalize things. That would solve a lot." (44:11, Anthony)
"It's easy to say that the far-off bad guy is not good. But then when you work with attorneys who work in these offices, you realize, okay, they're doing their job, which is to protect constitutional rights for individuals." (48:09, Hunter)
Contact Hunter Parnell:
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
West Virginia Public Defense with Dana Eddy & Stacey Fragile
When it comes to the public defense system, simple human connection is more important than you might think.
Dana Eddy, Executive Director of West Virginia Public Defender Services, and Stacey Fragile, Chief Public Defender of the 10th Judicial Circuit, are here to prove just that.
In this week's episode, Dana and Stacey speak about their community outreach efforts in the state and how they are making a difference at a local level.
They share their arguments for a holistic defense model and lessening the time people spend in the criminal justice system.
You'll learn that by connecting with people individually and focusing on the root of the problems, the entire public defense system could be changed for good.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Dana Eddy, Executive Director of West Virginia Public Defender Services
Stacey Fragile, Chief Public Defender of the 10th Judicial Circuit
Resources:
West Virginia Public Defender Services
Spangenberg Report West Virginia
West Virginia Annual Reports:
https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY18%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf
https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY17%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf
https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY16%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf
Memorable Quotes:
"It's hard to say in the state of West Virginia that we need more money. I do think we need to spend it more intelligently." (14:17, Dana)
"It's always going to be a challenge to get the community to accept individuals who have been convicted of criminal charges that carry with them the stigma of either a sex offense or violent offense." (26:31, Dana)
"The stigma is still there locally with the citizens in terms of all drugs are bad drugs, and until that changes, I don't see us legalizing." (32:45, Stacey)
"If I have one thing on my Christmas wishlist for this season, it would be that we look at a different mechanism for appointing counsel to these cases, but it's going to be hard to convince local judges that they need to give up out of authority, that control, over their courtroom." (47:52, Dana)
"What I would say is there's a lack of people who are really dedicated to public service and the public mission." (52:15, Dana)
"We have to remove the stigma regarding mental health or we're never going to make progress as a society." (1:09:14, Stacey)
Contact Hunter Parnell
hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com
From Gideon to Argersinger, much of the legal framework for the public defense came about because of the flaws in Florida public defender system. As one of the only places in the country with elected public defenders, it offers up several quirks that should worry people about the status of public defense in the state.
Today, I speak about this complicated system with Rex Dimmig, Chief Public Defender of the Florida 10th Judicial District and President of the Florida Public Defender Association.
Without glossing over the weaknesses of the system, you'll hear how asking for an attorney may eventually lead to you losing the right to vote, a shortage of investigators and staff, and an increasing number of ways the state makes you pay for a "free" attorney.
Rex gives you a behind-the-scenes glimpse of the Florida criminal justice system while stressing the importance of independence.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Rex Dimming, Chief Public Defender Florida 10th Judicial District & President of Florida Public Defender Association
Resources:
Florida Public Defender Association
"Despite Common Belief, Floridians Can't Always Get a Free Public Defender."
Memorable Quotes:
"We're generally satisfied with the distribution of resources, we're not at all satisfied with the quantity of resources that we are given." (8:34, Rex)
"I understand the concern that particularly in this hyper-partisan era, why some people might have some reservations about the elected process. All I can tell you is here in Florida. We haven't had that problem. The people who run for public defender are folks who are truly dedicated to the cause of indigent criminal defense." (21:10, Rex)
"Next to funding, independence is one of the hardest things to establish and the hardest thing to maintain of any public defender system." (23:06, Hunter)
"There's got to be a serious exploration of ways to increase revenue that are not dependent upon user fees that are just never going to be paid in substantial numbers." (34:55, Rex)
"In the effort to make sure that the worst perpetrators are punished, we create such a sweepingly aggressive punishment system that those who probably shouldn't be given similar results in their life are then straddled with it." (44:34, Hunter)
"What the goal of the criminal justice system has to be is to change people's unlawful conduct. If that's not the goal of your system, then locking somebody up, all that does is guarantee that once they're back out, they're going to re-offend." (52:44, Rex)
In the American conversation, there is a large overlap between class and race. Yet very often, we underplay the role that class plays in the dynamics of our legal system
In today's episode, Hunter chats with Amari Harris, the Equity Diversity and Inclusion Attorney for Virginia Public Defenders to discuss those dynamics and more.
He describes his much-needed position within the Virginia public defense system, the broken payment structure for contract attorneys, the ways in which Virginia prosecutors can engage in trial by ambush, and the important of crafting public messaging around public defense to fit the demographics and needs of the communities they serve.
Amari bridges the gap between practicing public defenders and their clients—helping them effectively approach each client's unique life experiences.
This episode challenges people to constantly think about how messaging around public defense will most effectively get people across the racial and socioeconmic spectrum to care about public defense reform.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Amari Harris, Equity Diversity and Inclusion Attorney for Virginia Public Defenders
Resources:
2016 ACLU report on Prosecutor Power
Memorable Quotes:
"Being a great lawyer is fantastic, but you could be a great lawyer and a bad public defender if you can't relate to your clients, if you can't engender yourself to the community in some way, then you're doing our clients a disservice." (6:20, Amari)
"If there's one thing that I know from just looking nationally, when you have a flat fee structure like this, you're not getting investigation." (18:09, Hunter)
"Just having someone that thinks a little bit differently than another person in the room makes that other person so much smarter than if they just read about the information." (32:46, Amari)
"If we think of diversity and inclusion only as representing ethnic and racial things, you're missing the point." (34:53, Hunter)
"I think race does dictate a lot of what goes on in the criminal justice system and it's been historic, but if you lead with that, then you will lose a lot of people." (42:59, Amari)
"Every public defender who stays in this long enough will work under blue and red administration. And the idea that you simply have to throw up your hands and go 'well shucks, wait till the guy who agrees with me comes into office' is not workable." (49:30, Hunter)
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