Stay ConnectedAnyone paying attention can tell you that our criminal legal system is perpetuating cruelty and harm, but the complexity of the legal world overwhelms most people simply trying to get through another day.
Public Defenseless explores the rot in the justice system and what we can do about it. Join host, Hunter Parnell, as he interviews top defense attorneys and criminal justice stakeholders from across the country as they pull apart the convoluted web of our criminal justice system.
Right now, approximately 40,000 people are incarcerated for cannabis-related charges, while others are making millions of dollars in the legal industry.
Steve DeAngelo, often considered "the father of the legal industry," has been fighting for reform since the 1970s.
In today's episode, Steve is here to talk about his work to reform both the cannabis industry and state laws through his organization the Last Prisoner Project.
He'll disprove the common misconceptions around cannabis while teaching you the spirit of the plant.
Steve will leave you with a clear image of the ideal cannabis industry and will also give you arguments for cannabis reform to keep in your back pocket.
Just by listening to this episode and sharing the information, you can be a part of the change!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Steve DeAngelo, Father of the Legal Cannabis Industry, Founder of Harborside Dispensary, Founder of the Last Prisoner Project
Resources:
Memorable Quotes:
"Every governor in the United States of America has the power to release cannabis prisoners with the stroke of a pen. And we believe that, especially in states where voters have voted to legalize cannabis, that every governor should do so." (12:49, Steve)
"I think that mobilizing people to defend their right to be able to grow cannabis in their own homes is pretty achievable." (31:2, Steve)
"I believe that cannabis is more than just another product. There's no other product that teaches us lessons and that gives us a common value system." (35:55, Steve)
"When you look at the cannabis plant across the breadth of human history, what you find is that every single human culture on this planet has adopted and used this planet successfully almost without exception." (43:13, Steve)
"When you look at the total range of substances that are out there, there's no question that cannabis should not be illegal. It should not be restricted. In fact, cannabis use should be celebrated and promoted because it gives social benefits rather than harms." (50:48, Steve)
"My belief is that if more people around the world consume cannabis, that we're going to end up living in a better world." (58:37, Steve)
Colorado's Doug Wilson has worked in the public defense system for over 40 years, so to say he holds a boatload of knowledge is an understatement!
Colorado has one of the best models of public defense and Doug is one of the people responsible for that success.
In this episode, Doug explains how he worked with the Colorado legislature to create a system built on independence and increase their budget by over 40 million dollars.
You'll also hear about Colorado's weaknesses—poor determination standards, court fees, and a lack of community outreach.
However, Wilson continues to advocate for an improved public defense system in Colorado.
In a world where not everybody gets access to representation and public defenders are overworked and underpaid, Doug Wilson is tenaciously working to change that.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Doug Wilson, Chief Public Defender of Aurora Municipal Defender Office and former Chief Public Defender of The Colorado Office of the State Public Defender
Resources:
NLADA Aurora Public Defender Assessment
ACLU Report on Colorado Municipal Courts
Office of the State Public Defender of Colorado
Aurora Office of the Public Defender
Do You Qualify for a Public Defender in Colorado?
Memorable Quotes:
"Indigent clients must be given the same constitutionally effect and officiant counsel as folks who can afford to pay for their attorney. That's huge. You don't see that level of independence or those mandates in very many systems around the country." (6:38, Doug)
"We're part of the public safety discussion as well, because for every person that we can keep out of the system or keep from coming back into the system, by our intervention or our representation, or our alternative sentencing plan… that protects the public." (12:45. Doug)
"50% of the bill of rights is there to protect the individual against the government." (22:00, Doug)
"So for my listeners, indigent does not mean just the homeless person on the side of the road with two pennies to rub together. It is the family next door struggling with medical debt, it is the family across the street who just got into a fender bender, it is the guy at work who just got laid off to no fault of his own. It is every ordinary people who will face the brunt of the legal system without an attorney." (38:07, Hunter)
"There are only five dedicated, municipal structured public defender offices in the country. Think about that." (49:59, Doug)
"When a person's livelihood is dependent upon them not realizing they're doing something bad, they will very rarely realize they're doing something bad." (46:34, Hunter)
Marijuana legalization is a hotly debated subject, so it's no wonder there's so much misinformation surrounding it.
Today's guest, Christian Sederberg, is here to teach you the truth.
Christian is a founding partner at Vincente Sederberg LLP, a national law firm that tackles drug reform.
This week, he will walk you through the complicated subject of marijuana legalization, from lobbying efforts to local advocacy.
He'll teach you the misconceptions around the marijuana industry and by the time you're done listening, you'll be able to form your own informed opinion.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Christian Sederberg, Founding Partner at Vicente Sederberg LLP
Resources:
Vicente Sederberg Law Firm Bio
Multipledisplenary Association for Psychedelic Studies
To reach out to Christian: christian@vicentesederberg.com
Memorable Quotes:
"When you move to actually treating addiction, you have lower rates of recidivism, your jails have less issues, and you have more resources that could be allocated to what people would consider more serious (quote-unquote) crimes." (16:34, Hunter)
"Their argument was if we create a tax system that relies upon mental health, would rely upon these tax dollars to have these programs, then we'll never be able to get to our ultimate goal of banning these products." (23:28, Christian)
"This country is shifting its frame that there can be responsible marijuana users. They're not all potheads." (34:06, Christian)
"We think we know what people need instead of engaging with them and asking, and actually having them tell us what they need." (40:02, Christian)
"We're talking about the fundamental problem with American law enforcement, in my opinion, which is that we still have a lot of work to do on how we treat the poorest communities." (42:46, Christian)
"We need to fundamentally shift our mindset, to look at all of these issues as public health issues and individual health issues, not as criminal justice issues." (53:17, Christian)
When it comes to public defense, Larry Landis is a legend.
As the former Head of the Indiana Public Defender Council, Larry has been in public defense since the 1970s and has worked with some of the biggest names in the industry.
As the architect of the current Indiana indigent defense system, he explains how the reimbursement model Indiana runs on came to be and how it affects people trapped in the legal system.
Because Larry has been in this industry for so long, you'll get a unique behind-the-scenes view of the Indiana indigent defense system that you won't get anywhere else!
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guest:
Larry Landis, Former Head of the Indiana Public Defender Council
Resources:
Sixth Amendment Center Report Indiana
2017 Task Force on Indiana Indigent Defense
2020 American Bar Association Workload Study
Memorable Quotes:
"There's too many cases trying to fit through a small funnel." (6:40, Larry)
"We have tried numerous times to increase reimbursement for misdemeanors, but I've never been successful." (12:25, Larry)
"Lawyers are no different than most people, they can be desensitized and numbed by the fact that they're not providing effective representation. My position is they need to be much stronger at advocating and challenging the system and refusing to be enablers" (21:01, Larry)
"The adversarial system is designed for once that accusation is lodged, game on in terms of that, that train is rolling down the tracks. And if you don't have someone to slow it down, you're going to prison." (38:52, Larry)
"There's gotta be consequences right now, there's virtually none. So the lawyers can get away with curing corners, counties can underfund it, and there's no consequence." (49:52, Larry)
"We have this idea that people who require indigent defense are the worst of the worst of society. When in reality, the vast majority of them are low-level offenders who given enough opportunity, given the resources and not just discarded from society can again be productive members." (57:04, Hunter)
----
Today, I speak with Bennet Baur, the Chief Public Defender of New Mexico.
With the power of the people behind them, Ben Baur and the New Mexico Public Defenders were able to find independence and fight for desperately needed reforms.
Yet a decade after gaining independence, the Law Offices of the Public Defender can handle only one-third of the cases they carry.
This week, join us as we uncover what is going right, what is going wrong, and how our community is put in danger because of a lack of public defense funding.
Bennet Baur is a wonderful example of what happens when a public defender cares about personal freedom.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Bennet Baur, Chief Public Defender at New Mexico Law Offices of the Public Defender
Resources:
American Bar Association New Mexico Project
New Mexico Public Defender Website
Memorable Quotes:
"It's also policy, you know not just advocating for our clients, but advocating for what we think is good public policy." (7:32, Ben)
"Because I work in the system, I believe that over-incarceration, that just putting people in jail, isn't going to solve the problem." (10:05, Ben)
"When those mistakes interact with a human being's life, liberty, and their ability to make a living, those are mistakes that can't happen." ( 20:32, Hunter)
"The system is based upon is lawyers doing a lot of work for free for the state. And that's not the way that this should work. It shouldn't be up to a lawyer to do work for free, which is what happens to provide ethical representation." (28:11, Ben)
"Give us more money or give us fewer cases." (33:49, Ben)
"I'll say it again. We missed the point of these bail reforms. There are certain individuals who, because of poverty, are not a threat to the community and are in jail." (38:01, Hunter)
"I hate that we as a society always have an overreaction to everything that happens, whether it's on the left or right, or something bad happens that we don't like. And then we over-correct, so we make it just as bad. And we can't get that pendulum to just sit right in the middle where it works " (39:11, Hunter)
"You shouldn't fund government services on poor people." (40:13, Ben)
Louisiana holds one of the highest incarceration rates in the world.
And with a lack of funding, public defenders can only handle 21% of open cases at a time.
In today's episode, I speak to two impressive guests: Derwyn Bunton, Chief Public Defender of Orleans Public Defenders, and Trisha Ward, Chief Public Defender of Evangeline Parish.
Together, Derwyn and Trisha walk us through the complexities of the Louisiana indigent defense system and how its fee-based model leads to problems.
Derwyn and Trisha are truly beacons of strength in an overwhelming system.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
An overview of Louisiana's user pay system of justice [4:49]
The reality of fees in Louisiana [9:31]
The difficulties that Trish faces at a rural level [14:57]
How hurricanes affect public defense in Louisiana [17:27]
Pre-trial confinement in Louisiana & why it's so long [20:07]
The types of people who go through the Louisiana indigent system [29:01]
Why the cases have piled up so high [38:42]
The importance of investigators [41:45]
Guests:
Derwyn Bunton, Chief Public Defender of Orleans Public Defenders
Trisha Ward, Chief Public Defender of Evangeline Parish
Resources:
Orleans Public Defenders
Evangeline Parish Public Defenders
Memorable Quotes:
"Public defenders in Louisiana are paid to lose. Structurally paid to lose. This is an incentive to plead because that's where the funding comes from." [11:20, Derwin]
"What we need to do is let folks know that public define is a part of our constitution, but it's also part of our political culture and heritage as a country." [12:03, Derwin]
"It's very easy to have your kids permanently removed and your rights terminated. So I think that may be the most egregious thing at the end." [27:08, Trisha]
"We can also lower the amount of people who are going through the system in general because we are getting to the roots of criminality, that I think is so important for people to understand." [37:35, Hunter]
"We are poorly, very poorly funded. And I'm having to just lay the basic groundwork right now, and call that me moving in a client-centered direction, which I do think it is, but there are many many challenges ahead because of the way that our systems are funded." [40:28, Trisha]
"If we have investigations handled properly, the courts don't have to deal with cases where innocence is obvious. You don't need a bad actor to have somebody wrongfully accused of a crime." [46:11, Hunter]
"I don't see any true, true improvement in these rural districts until there is a better state system or funding mechanism." [49:13, Trisha]
"Our criminal legal system has gotten so big, it impacts so many different parts of our lives, that we just need to bring it back to what it ought to be in my opinion, which is focused on community." [50:36, Derwin]
Meet Justin Andrus: Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services.
In this week's episode, I speak with Justin about how he is massively improving the indigent defense system in the state of Maine.
Maine is unique because 100% of their public defenders are contract attorneys, but Justin makes it work.
You'll learn the ins and outs of public defense in Maine. By knowing the true realities of the system, you'll walk away feeling motivated to create change.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
Justin Andrus, Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services
Resources:
Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services https://www.maine.gov/mcils/home
Sixth Amendment Center Report on Indigent Defense in Maine
Maine Monitor/ProPublica Report on the MCILS issues in the past
OPEGA Report on Finance Oversight Issues in MCILS
Reports mentioned at 7:42
Memorable Quotes:
"I do think that it is possible to have the structure that provides the necessary oversight and training and quality assurance for contracted attorneys." (11:18, Justin)
"We need higher wages. Communicating how important it is and for people to understand how important it is that it's the defendant who is harmed by this." (19:26, Hunter)
"So the concept of partially indigent is maybe a misnomer. I agree. It doesn't make a lot of sense on its face as a set of words." (35:16. Justin)
"It isn't this mortal combat between good and evil, as many people want it to be. It is individuals trying to do the best for the defendant, for the community, all of these things working in mind." (38:15, Hunter)
"We are not a bunch of shady people helping evil doers be free to do more evil. And in fact, the vast majority of people accused of crimes are not evildoers at all." (40:39, Justin)
"Society is safest when the most number of people are having their needs met." (14:29, Justin)
"The first thing a self-represented defendant should know is don't be self-represented if you could possibly avoid it." (44:03, Justin)
04: Public Defense w/ David Carroll
This week, Executive Director of the Sixth Amendment Center, David Carroll walks us through how he got into public defense, the issues with public defense, and solutions that we can implement now.
You'll learn the some the areas states continue to fail sixth amendment obligationa, the "the dirty little secret" of the American courtroom, and how the justice system can shift to support the public in this space.
Through David's expert experience and unique perspective, you'll get an inside view of the public defense system and the value of the sixth amendment being executed accurately.
Key Topics and Takeaways:
Guests:
David Carroll, Executive Director of the Sixth Amendment Center
Resources:
Sixth Amendment Center https://sixthamendment.org/
American Bar Association 10 Principles of Public Defense
Memorable Quotes:
"America's little secret is that thousands of people are processed into jail every day, without ever speaking to an attorney, this is almost exclusively, but not entirely in misdemeanor courts." (8:42, David)
"At the core of our justice system is the idea that the state has a burden, which that word should mean something, a burden to prove your guilt with evidence." (11:20, Hunter)
"There should be a lawyer with the client. There should be a lawyer in the courtroom… it clearly shows to me that these aren't defendants who simply don't want to show up in court." (17:46, David)
"Criminal justice is probably the largest expenditure of government's money at the state and local level. And we're not getting the aims we want with no one's feeling any safer. In fact, you're probably ruining people's lives and not making them productive citizens" (25:25, David)
"People are trying to do good by their communities. 95% of the people I've met even if they're doing some really, really problematic things, got into government or criminal justice because they did want to serve their communities." (42:16, David)
"People hear fines and fees and they go, well, it's better than jail." (58:20, Hunter)
In a country that lacks legal representation for all, some people are fighting for change.
James McDermott, Chief Public Defender of Far West Texas, and Scott Ehlers, Director of Public Defense Improvement at the Texas Indigent Defense Commission, are two of those people.
In this group interview, James and Scott discuss the Texas Indigent Defense System and how they make a positive impact in their respective areas.
We uncover the barriers stopping people from receiving fair legal representation and even hear some heartwarming stories about clients that James and Scott represent.
If you want to dive deep into the complexities of the Texas Indigent Defense System and learn how you can help, this is the episode for you.
Key Topics and Takeaways
Guests:
James McDermott, Chief Public Defender Far West Texas
Far West Texas Regional Public Defender
Scott Ehlers, Director of Public Defense Improvement, Texas Indigent Defense Commission
Texas Indigent Defense Commission
References
The Mississippi indictment process is known as the "black hole." But out of that darkness comes some light: Andre De Gruy, State Public Defender of Mississippi.
This week, Andre walks us through how he opened the first state public defender trial office in Mississippi and the reality of public defense in that state.
You'll learn why change within the Mississippi public defense system is so difficult and how Andre has been working to change that story.
Through Andre's expert experience and unique perspective, you'll get an inside view of the Mississippi legal system and why funding is so hard to come by.
Key Topics and Takeaways
Where You Can Find Andre De Gruy, State Public Defender of Mississippi
Mississippi Office of the State Public Defender
References
Office of the State Public Defender
Sixth Amendment Center Report 2017
Our TOPPODCAST Picks 
