It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Latest Episodes:

Mo Salah: The Egyptian King's Story | Part Two Aug 22, 2025

Show notes

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the Football History podcast hosted by Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper. In this second episode of a two-part special, we explore the life of Mohamed Salah - from winning his third PFA player of the year award, to the pressures and the complex political landscape he navigates in Egypt . We delve into Salah's impact in the UK, his challenging relationship with International football, from rural Egypt to the global stage, Mohamed Salah's journey is as thrilling as it is complex. Join us for an in-depth look at one of the most intriguing figures in modern football.

00:00 Introduction

00:44 Mohamed Salah's Political and Cultural Significance

03:01 The Complexities of Expressing Political Views

05:02 Historical Context: Egypt's Political Landscape

14:19 The Arab Spring and Its Aftermath

24:06 Mohamed Salah's Relationship with the Egyptian National Team

27:40 High Stakes in World Cup Play-offs

28:35 Egypt's Football Legacy and Recent Struggles

29:55 The 2018 World Cup Disappointment

31:56 Controversies and Criticisms

37:59 Political Pressures and Social Media

44:46 Salah's Impact in the UK

49:24 The Ballon d'Or and Future Prospects

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Mo Salah: The Egyptian King's Story | Part One Aug 19, 2025

Show notes

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

Today, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson are joined by Ed Aarons from The Guardian to discuss the incredible journey of Mohamed Salah. With the PFA Footballer of the Year awards tonight, Salah's early life and career beginnings are explored in depth. Ed shares his research from travels to Salah's hometown in Egypt, providing unique insights into the challenges Salah faced, including the long commute for training and the support from his family. The episode covers Salah’s initial struggles, his move to Basel, and his eventual breakout that caught the attention of major clubs. Join us to learn how Salah's dedication and hard work paved the way for his renowned career.

00:00 Introduction and Today's Topic: Mohamed Salah

00:38 Guest Introduction: Ed Aarons

00:54 Journey to Egypt: Tracing Salah's Roots

01:54 Experiences in Salah's Hometown

03:22 Salah's Early Life and Football Beginnings

12:39 Challenges and Dedication in Salah's Youth

18:40 Salah's Transition to Professional Football

21:29 Cultural and Personal Insights on Salah

22:11 Salah's Early Professional Struggles

23:53 The Turning Point: Mastering the Art of Finishing

25:09 Early Career Struggles and Breakthroughs

26:33 International Recognition and Olympic Success

30:10 The Tragic Event That Changed Everything

31:31 The Move to Basel: Trials and Triumphs

39:00 Challenges at Chelsea and the Path to Greatness

44:26 Liverpool's Perfect Fit: Salah's Rise to Stardom

46:25 National Team Challenges and Rivalries

49:57 Legacy and Comparisons: The Greatest African Player?

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The Special One’s Fall at Chelsea — Inside Mourinho’s 2015 Sacking Aug 15, 2025

Show notes

On today's episode of It Was What It Was, hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson explore a crucial moment in Premier League history: José Mourinho's dramatic 2015/16 season at Chelsea. They discuss Mourinho's second sacking at Chelsea and the key incidents that led to his sacking just 6 months after winning the title, including the infamous Eva Carneiro incident and clashes with players like Eden Hazard, and a turbulent pre-season tour.

The episode examines how these factors contributed to a season of rapid decline, leading to Mourinho's sacking and raising questions about his methods in modern football.

00:00 Introduction

00:33 Reflecting on Jose Mourinho's 2015 Season

01:42 The Beginning of the End: Preseason Signs

06:01 The Eva Carneiro Incident

14:29 Preseason Tour Troubles

20:50 Early Season Struggles

26:07 The Impact of the Eva Carneiro Affair

27:54 Conclusion and Transition to Second Half

29:04 Chelsea's Struggles Begin

29:31 Tactical Changes and Player Issues

30:33 Transfer Market Woes

33:33 Leadership Void and Dressing Room Dynamics

37:43 Marino's Public Outbursts

45:57 The Final Straw: Leicester Defeat

48:21 Marino's Departure and Legacy

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The Little Magician: Juninho’s Boro Days with Jan Åge Fjørtoft Aug 12, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by guest Jan Åge Fjørtoft to explore the groundbreaking transfer of Brazilian footabller Juninho to Middlesbrough in 1995. The discussion explores the players’ previous career highlights, the unique challenges they faced adjusting to English football, and the cultural impact of Juninho's arrival on the Premier League. Special focus is given to the transformational role this transfer played in attracting world-class talent to mid-level English clubs.

Jan gives insightful stories and personal anecdotes surrounding how Juninho became a beloved figure at Middlesbrough and his lasting legacy in English football history.

00:00 Introduction and Today's Topic

01:12 Early Career and Move to Rapid Vienna

02:32 Transition to English Football

04:49 Joining Middlesbrough and Early Impressions

13:26 The Impact of Janio's Signing

16:51 Cultural Adjustments and Training Challenges

19:07 Middlesbrough's Transformation and Community Connection

30:28 Cultural Insights from Middlesbrough

31:02 Tactical Evolution in English Football

31:45 Adapting to English Football's Physicality

36:23 Weather and Training Challenges

40:25 The Impact of Foreign Signings

50:10 Middlesbrough's Tumultuous Season

59:09 Legacy of Jan Nino and the Premier League

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Don Revie's Leeds United: Dirty or Misunderstood? | Part Two Aug 08, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In Part Two of our series on Don Revie's Leeds United, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson explore the origins of the 'Dirty Leeds' tag. This episode delves into the notorious 1964 match against Everton that cemented the club's aggressive reputation. It discusses the reactions from fans and media, the role of football associations, and Revie's responses.

Our conclusion also examines the cultural and tactical shifts in football during the 1960s and how Leeds' image became a point of controversy and unity for the team and its supporters.

Tune in to uncover the complexities behind one of football's most infamous labels.

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00:00 Introduction

01:36 The Dirty Leeds Tag

03:46 Don Revy's Management Style

27:43 Promotion and the Great Moral Panic

29:21 The Notorious Game against Everton at Goodison

30:37 Media and Public Perception

31:47 Football's Changing Landscape

33:04 The Birth of 'Dirty Leeds'

41:30 Revie's Reaction and Amplification

56:04 Conclusion and Legacy

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Don Revie's Leeds United: Dirty or Misunderstood? | Part One Aug 05, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In this episode, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson discuss the significant impact of Don Revie on Leeds United and English football. The episode covers Revie's early career, his transition into management, and his influence on Leeds United.

The narrative delves into the challenges Leeds faced before Revie's arrival, his innovative approaches, and the beginning of Leeds' transformation. This is the first part of a series exploring the legendary 'Dirty Leeds' era, their historical context, and whether they really were 'dirty' or just misunderstood.

Join us for Part Two on Friday.

00:00 Introduction

01:03 The Controversial Reputation of Leeds United

03:21 Historical Context of Leeds United

04:26 The West Stand Fire and Financial Crisis

06:42 Managerial Struggles and Relegation

17:33 Don Revie's Appointment and Early Life

26:08 Revie's Early Career and Influence of Smith

28:34 Revie's Superstitions and Misfortunes

35:37 Transition to Manchester City and the Revie Plan

41:17 Billy Bremner's influence

47:59 Revie's Managerial Beginnings at Leeds

49:41 Conclusion and Teaser for the Part Two

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Red Star ’91: Conquering Europe as Yugoslavia Collapsed – Part Two Aug 01, 2025

Show notes

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper bring part two into the fascinating and tragic story of Red Star Belgrade's triumphant 1991 European Cup campaign. They discuss Red Star's status as underdogs against Bayern Munich in the semifinal, their intricate path to victory amidst the backdrop of Yugoslavia's impending civil war, and the dramatic events of the legendary matches.

This episode highlights not just the team's achievements on the field, but also the historical, cultural, and political context that made their victory the last moment of unity for Yugoslav football before the nation's fragmentation. Additionally, the episode covers the aftermath of the war on Red Star and the once-great football culture of the region.

00:00 Introduction

03:18 Quarter-Final Against Dynamo Dresden

04:43 Political Tensions and the Road to the Semi-Final

08:36 The Complexities of Yugoslavia's Ethnic Divisions

12:36 The Semi-Final Against Bayern Munich

21:13 The Dramatic Second Leg against Bayern Munich

35:43 The Aftermath and Celebrations

36:16 Final against Marseille

44:13 Post-Match Reflections and Legacy

49:43 Impact of War on Red Star Belgrade

53:48 Croatian Football's Success

56:59 Conclusion

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Red Star ’91: Conquering Europe as Yugoslavia Collapsed – Part One Jul 29, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson explore the history of Red Star Belgrade, focusing on their monumental 1991 European Cup win against a backdrop of Yugoslavia's political turmoil and impending civil war.

This episode explores the club's founding, cultural significance, and key players, including the dramatic escape of Miodrag Belodedici from Romania. They also detail the influence of notorious figures like Arkan and the emotional scenes in Belgrade during this turbulent time.

Part Two will release on Friday.

00:00 Introduction

06:19 Political Tensions and Football

09:31 The Riot at Maksimir Stadium

16:36 Arkan's Criminal Background

25:04 Arkan's Bonkers Wedding and Return to War

27:23 The Rise and Fall of Arkan

29:39 Red Star Belgrade: Historical Context and Formation

31:13 The Intellectual and Working-Class Roots of Red Star

36:24 Red Star's European Struggles and Triumphs

39:52 The Escape and Signing of Miodrag Belodedici

44:32 The 1991 Season and Key Changes

47:48 Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

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The Death Match: Football, Resistance, and Myth in Nazi-Occupied Ukraine | Part Two Jul 25, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this episode, co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson bring their second and final part of their series on the Death Match, one of the most mythologized football games of all time.

Occurring in Nazi-occupied Kyiv, Ukraine, this match between Start, a team formed mostly of former Dinamo Kiev players, and Flakelf, a Luftwaffe team, has become a symbol of resistance. The hosts discuss the brutal context of the occupation, the complex legacies of the players, and the role football played in these extraordinary historical circumstances. Jonathan Wilson critically examines how much of the narrative is based on verifiable facts and how much may have been post-war Soviet propaganda.

This episode provides a nuanced understanding of how football intersected with geopolitics, resistance, and national identity during one of history's darkest periods.

00:00 Introduction to the Death Match Series

01:27 Historical Context: Nazi Occupation and Football

02:26 The Rise of Team Start

03:07 Early Matches and Growing Tensions

04:21 Embarrassing Defeats for Axis Teams

05:28 Public Perception and Propaganda

06:29 The Turning Point: German Concerns

14:13 The First Clash with Flakelf

18:05 Setting the Stage for the Death Match

26:06 The Referee's Influence and Game Dynamics

27:10 Halftime Tensions and Orders to Lose

28:39 Second Half and Controversial Moments

32:35 Post-Match Arrests and Interrogations

35:50 Life in the Prison Camp

43:10 Escape and Kyiv's Liberation

44:33 Legacy and Mythology of the Death Match

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The Death Match: Football, Resistance, and Myth in Nazi-Occupied Ukraine | Part One Jul 22, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

This week, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the harrowing tale of 'The Death Match,' a match played under Nazi occupation in Ukraine.

They explore the brutal conditions faced by Ukrainian footballers, the formation of a remarkable team, and the resonances with modern-day conflicts. In Part One, learn how football resurfaced amidst atrocities, with bakery manager Yosyp Kordyk forming a team from former stars. The discussions cover the political intricacies and personal tragedies, setting the stage for the match itself.

Join us for Part Two on Friday, where the details of the game itself and its far-reaching consequences are revealed.

00:00 Introduction to the Yard Brigade

00:26 Welcome to the Podcast

00:53 The Mythologized Football Match

02:44 Escape to Victory and Its Origins

04:16 Introducing Joseph Cordick

05:49 The Nazi Occupation of Kiev

07:37 The Struggles of Mik Trivi

14:21 The Fall of Kiev and Its Aftermath

25:51 Ukrainian Nationalism and Football Under Nazi Occupation

27:34 The Horrors of Nazi Occupation in Kyiv

29:43 Football as a Means of Normalization