It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Latest Episodes:

Offside! The 1925 Rule That Changed Football Jun 13, 2025

Show notes

Please note: Apologies for the audio issues in the first 10 minutes of the show.

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast, with co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson.

Today we are joined by special guest David Owen, former sports editor of the Financial Times and author of multiple books on sports history. In this episode, the trio delves deep into the significant alteration of the offside rule on June 13, 1925, and how this monumental change impacted football. From the tactical transformations it spurred, like the introduction of the WM formation and the rise of the centre half role, to its broader effects on the game's entertainment value and popularity, the discussion covers it all.

Join us as we explore one of the most pivotal adjustments in football history and its lasting legacy.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

01:08 The 1925 Offside Rule Change

02:21 Historical Context of Offside Rule

02:55 Early 20th Century Offside Tactics

05:01 Impact of the 1925 Rule Change

12:27 Adaptations and Innovations

19:04 Immediate Effects in England

26:03 Notable Goal Scoring Feats

27:42 Astonishing Cup Run and Relegation Drama

29:05 Impact of the 1925 Offside Law Change

32:03 Defensive Strategies and Adaptations

34:15 Tactical Innovations and the WM Formation

42:04 Evolution of Player Roles and Transfer Market

53:32 Global Differences and Final Thoughts

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Zambia 2012: Africa's Greatest Fairytale Jun 10, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In today’s episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore one of the most powerful stories in football history: Zambia’s remarkable triumph at the 2012 Africa Cup of Nations.

Jonathan, who covered the 2012 tournament on the ground, shares firsthand reflections of what he calls the most emotional press box moment he’s ever experienced.

Nineteen years after a devastating plane crash claimed the lives of their national squad, Zambia rose from the ashes to claim continental glory. This episode retraces their journey - from the tragedy off the coast of Gabon in 1993, the rebuilding efforts led by legendary captain Kalusha Bwalya, right through to their unforgettable victory on penalties in the very same country that witnessed their darkest hour.

00:00 The Final Match: A Battle Beyond the Pitch

00:15 Introduction to an Inspiring and Tragic Football Story

00:36 Zambia's Uplifting Victory After Tragedy

02:26 The 1993 Plane Crash: A National Tragedy

04:37 Zambia's Football Rise in the Late 80s

08:15 The Aftermath of the Crash and the Struggle for Resources

18:42 Rebuilding the Team: The Role of Kaia and New Coaches

24:01 The 2012 African Cup of Nations Journey

25:06 The Quarterfinals and Beyond

27:01 Gabon vs. Mali: A Penalty Heartbreak

27:30 Unexpected Journey to Bata

31:12 Ghana's Complacency and Zambia's Rise

38:38 The Emotional Beach Ceremony

40:27 The Dramatic Final Against Ivory Coast

51:10 Zambia's Historic Victory

52:16 Reflecting on the Significance

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Luis Enrique: Triumph, Tragedy, and PSG's Champions League Glory Jun 06, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Today, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore the remarkable life and career of Luis Enrique, fresh off delivering Paris Saint-Germain’s first-ever Champions League title.

From leading Barcelona to a historic treble in 2015 to now rewriting PSG's narrative in Europe, Enrique’s managerial legacy is already carved into footballing folklore. But behind the silverware lies a deeply personal story; one of resilience, heartbreak, and unshakable determination.

In 2019, Enrique stepped away from football during his time as Spain’s national team coach after the tragic death of his 9-year-old daughter, Xana, who lost her battle with bone cancer. The podcast reflects on how he faced unimaginable grief and later returned to the sidelines with a renewed sense of focus, channeling his pain into purpose.

We also explore the lesser-known side of Enrique — the ultramarathon runner, the iron-willed competitor, and the fitness fanatic who demanded relentless physical commitment from his players. His obsession with endurance has shaped not only the way his teams play but also the culture he instills: high pressing, relentless movement, and mental toughness.

Where does Luis Enrique’s legacy stand now? From Gijón to Camp Nou to Paris, and from personal tragedy to professional triumph — this is a story of more than just football. It’s about the making of a modern great.

0:00 Introduction and Personal Reflection

00:32 Luis Enrique's Early Life and Background

04:15 Football Beginnings and Early Career

07:03 Transition to Real Madrid and Barcelona

16:06 International Career and Notable Incidents

22:52 Post-Playing Career and Coaching Beginnings

29:07 Luis Enrique's Coaching Journey

31:01 Barcelona's Missed Opportunity with Luis Enrique

32:36 Luis Enrique's Success at Celta Vigo

32:49 Barcelona's Second Chance with Luis Enrique

35:41 The Messi Conundrum

37:54 Luis Enrique's Triumphs and Challenges at Barcelona

44:53 The Tragic Loss of Luis Enrique's Daughter

47:15 Return to the Spanish National Team

52:26 Luis Enrique's Tenure at PSG

01:00:36 The Emotional Impact of Luis Enrique's Journey

01:02:41 Conclusion and Reflections

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Why Brazil Have Turned To Carlo Ancelotti Jun 03, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore a landmark moment in the sport: Brazil, for the first time in its storied history, has appointed a sole foreign manager, Carlo Ancelotti.

As he prepares to lead the Seleção in his first match on Friday against Ecuador, the episode unpacks the significance of his move to Brazil.

They examine Ancelotti’s coaching philosophy, tracing its roots to his mentor Nils Liedholm and the enduring influence of Hungarian football. The conversation spans decades and continents—from the intellectual cafés of Budapest to the shifting tactical landscape of South America. Along the way, they reflect on the evolution of Brazilian coaching and the global reach of Hungarian tactical innovation.

Join them for a compelling look at the past, present, and future of football strategy, and discover how Ancelotti’s arrival in Brazil could be a return to their roots.

00:00 Introduction and Personal Anecdotes

00:37 Historic Day for Brazil: Foreign Manager Appointed

01:15 Carlo Ancelotti's Coaching Philosophy

01:55 Brazil's Foreign Coaching History

04:56 The Dominance of Argentinian Coaches in South America

06:04 Brazilian Football's Tactical Evolution

10:30 Hungarian Influence on Brazilian Football

20:56 Brazil's World Cup Preparations and Challenges

26:13 Brazil's Struggles Against European Teams

27:49 Modern Era: Brazil's Coaching Crisis

29:11 Analysing the Decline of Brazilian Football

30:01 The Influence of European Coaching

30:22 The Role of Brazilian Midfielders

30:37 Recent Brazilian Coaches and Their Struggles

31:38 The Turning Point: Italy 1982

32:10 Introduction to Carlo Ancelotti's Appointment

32:49 Carlo Ancelotti's Mentorship and Legacy

35:27 The Hungarian Influence on Modern Football

38:33 The Swedish Connection and Coaching Philosophy

40:22 The Rise of IFK Norrköping

48:28 The Formation of the Gre-No-Li Trio

51:27 Carlo Ancelotti's Impact on Brazilian Football

55:12 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Paris Saint-Germain's Journey: Chasing the Champions League Dream May 30, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

In this episode, Jonathan and Rob explore the history of Paris Saint-Germain ahead of their Champions League final against Inter Milan.

Join us as we uncover the intriguing journey of PSG - and their transformation from a club with little history to a European powerhouse. Rob and Jonathan explore the significant matches, the controversial ownership and the club's elusive quest for Champions League glory.

For more build-up to the Champions League Final - listen to our episode on Inter Milan - The Birth of the Catenaccio - released earlier this week.

00:00 Introduction to the Football History Podcast

01:08 PSG's Humble Beginnings

02:59 The Formation of PSG

04:30 Challenges and Controversies

06:53 The Role of Media and Public Support

08:48 The Birth of Paris Saint-Germain

11:10 The Struggle for Identity

14:38 The Rise of PSG

20:12 Fashion and Football: The Daniel Hechter Era

25:27 Financial Misconduct in French Football

26:15 PSG's Rise in the 1980s

27:20 Early European Struggles

28:41 Financial Turmoil and Media Takeover

30:32 Golden Years and European Semi-Final Curse

33:31 Qatari Takeover and Controversies

41:45 Branding and Big Signings

46:31 Modern Challenges and Future Prospects

50:12 Conclusion and Champions League final thoughts

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Herrera's Inter Milan: The Birth of the Catenaccio May 27, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to this Champions League special episode of It Was What It Was with hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson. In this episode, they dive deep into the rich tactical history of Inter Milan, tracing the origins and impact of the famous Catenaccio system introduced by legendary coach Helenio Herrera in the 1960s. They explore Herrera's significant influence on modern football management, his controversial methods, and the eventual decline of his tactical system. Additionally, the hosts draw parallels between Herrera's era and Inter Milan's current approach under Simone Inzaghi, highlighting how historical tactics still resonate today as they face PSG in

Join us at the end of the week as we turn our attention to PSG's history, as they look to win the Champions League for the first time.

00:00 Introduction

00:19 Champions League Special: Setting the Scene

00:34 Helena Herrera: The Tactical Genius

01:56 The Birth of Catenaccio

02:56 Karl Rappan and the Swiss Influence

08:43 Catenaccio's Evolution in Italy

13:31 The Rise of Inter Milan

19:02 Herrera's Early Career and Philosophy

27:31 Herrera's Impact at Barcelona

29:54 Transition to Inter Milan

30:07 Inter's Turbulent Coaching History

30:39 Helenio Herrera's Arrival and Impact

31:17 Herrera's Strict Regimen and Control

34:55 Tactical Innovations and Success

42:06 Controversies and Criticisms

49:31 The Decline of Herrera's Inter

56:50 Legacy and Modern Comparisons

01:02:19 Conclusion and Upcoming Content

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1984/85: The Season that Shook English Football, Part Two - Heysel May 23, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper focus on the 1984/85 season that changed English football, with Part One focussing on the numerous fan violence incidents then the tragedy of the Bradford fire as 56 fans lost their lives.

Today, in part two, Tony Evans, former sports editor at The Times and author of 'Two Tribes' and 'Far Foreign Land' joins the show to talk about Heysel.

In this episode, Tony Evans shares his harrowing experiences and poignant reflections on the Heysel Stadium disaster of 1985, when 39 football fans tragically lost their lives during the European Cup Final between Liverpool and Juventus. The discussion covers the chaotic events leading up to the disaster, the atmosphere in Brussels, and the aftermath, both immediate and long-term, for football and fan culture.

Don't miss this in-depth exploration of one of the darkest days in football history.

00:00 Introducing the Podcast and Special Guest Tony Evans

02:15 Liverpool in 1985: A City and Club in Turmoil

02:30 The Violent Year: Football and Social Unrest

05:09 The Day of the Heysel Disaster: Personal Accounts

07:46 Chaos in Brussels: The Build-Up to Tragedy

16:57 The Collapse: Mismanagement and Miscommunication

27:45 The Aftermath: Reactions and Reflections

30:35 The Aftermath of the Tragedy

31:43 Personal Recollections and Impact

32:26 Documentary Insights and Victim Stories

34:56 Chaos and Confusion at the Stadium

38:25 The Decision to Continue the Game

49:08 Reflections on Fan Behaviour and Consequences

51:27 The Broader Context and Political Reactions

53:48 Long-term Changes in Football Culture

58:38 Concluding Thoughts on the Tragedy

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1984/85: The Season that Shook English Football, Part One May 20, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was When It Was, the football history podcast.

This week we're focussing on the 1984-85 footballing season - arguably the bleakest time in English football history - that changed the game forever.

Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper begin the first of two episodes covering the violence, tragedy, and upheaval of this period and the wider context of football hooliganism in the first half, whilst the second half of part one pays tribute to the horrific Bradford Fire that claimed 56 lives 40 years ago.

Explore gripping firsthand accounts, the reactions of key figures, and the societal and institutional issues that plagued the sport, leading to safety measures and ultimately, a transformation in football culture.

Join us on Friday as we are joined by Tony Evans to talk about the Heysel tragedy that happened at the end of May in 1985.

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast

01:09 Reflecting on the 1984-85 Season

02:47 The Bradford Fire Tragedy

04:00 Football's Decrepit Stadiums

06:31 Chelsea vs. Sunderland: Milk Cup Semi-Final Chaos

12:36 Luton vs. Millwall: FA Cup Violence

26:35 Birmingham vs. Leeds: Championship Decider Mayhem

29:10 Fans Fight Back and Prolonged Chaos

30:52 Medieval Fortress and Perimeter Fences

31:59 Racism and Aggression in Football Culture

33:15 Introduction to the Bradford Fire

35:04 The Start of the Fire and Initial Reactions

36:16 Rapid Escalation and Desperate Attempts to Escape

38:20 Heartbreaking Personal Accounts and Immediate Aftermath

47:16 Investigations and Controversies

50:57 Negligence and Legal Consequences

57:30 Broader Implications and Future Changes

59:24 Conclusion and Preview of Next Episode

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Verona's Miracle Season: The Story of the 1985 Serie A Champions May 16, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast! Join co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper as they welcome special guest Richard Hough, author of 'Verona Capone, the Miracle of 85'. In this episode, Richard delves into the extraordinary story of Hellas Verona's incredible 1984-85 Serie A title win. From the chaotic Italian football landscape of the 1980s, managerial masterstrokes, and key foreign signings, to the unforgettable moments and lasting impact on the city of Verona, this episode is a deep dive into one of football's most romantic underdog stories. Join us as we explore how a small provincial team conquered giants like AC Milan and Juventus to achieve an unexpected and historic league victory.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

01:02 Setting the Scene: 1980s Italian Football

02:21 Verona's Rise to Glory

03:28 Economic and Social Context

05:08 Key Players and Strategic Moves

12:15 Tactical Insights and Coaching Philosophy

15:15 Foreign Players and Their Impact

22:55 The Perfect Season Opener

25:04 The Opening Goal and Season Kickoff

25:29 Verona's Iconic Moments and Key Players

30:05 The Turning Point in the Season

33:01 The Final Stretch to the Title

40:42 Celebrations and Legacy

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Crystal Palace 1990: Eagles' FA Cup Heroics and the Final that Saved Sir Alex May 13, 2025

Show notes

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

It’s FA Cup final week, with Manchester City set to take on Crystal Palace at Wembley. In this episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper revisit the dramatic story of Palace’s remarkable run to the 1990 FA Cup Final.

Just months after a crushing 9-0 defeat to Liverpool, Crystal Palace stunned the same side in a sensational 4-3 semi-final — a match still regarded as one of the greatest in FA Cup history. That victory set up a final against Sir Alex Ferguson’s Manchester United, who, at the time, were still chasing their first trophy under his management.

Today, we delve into where Crystal Palace stood as a club in 1990, explore their tactical shifts, highlight standout performances — especially the impact of Ian Wright — and examine Manchester United’s situation under Ferguson, including the pivotal moments that led to his first silverware with the club. We also examine whether Palace could shock Manchester City and finally win the FA Cup for the first time in their history.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

02:23 Crystal Palace's Journey to the Semis

03:37 Televised Semifinals and Hillsborough's Impact

11:55 Crystal Palace's Tactical Shift

15:17 The Dramatic Semifinal Match

20:39 Crystal Palace's Historic FA Cup Final

21:06 Manchester United's Journey to the 1990 FA Cup Final

25:55 Ian Wright's Miraculous Comeback

28:35 The Replay and Ferguson's First Trophy

31:56 Comparing Crystal Palace Eras

36:05 Can Crystal Palace Upset Manchester City?