It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Latest Episodes:

Messi’s Magic: Barcelona’s Golden Era | Part One Oct 14, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into Lionel Messi's early years at Barcelona and his rise to stardom. They explore Messi's journey from his initial signing to the club in 2000 to the early recognition of his talent by notable figures like Ronaldinho. The episode highlights Messi's challenges, including his growth hormone treatment and cultural adjustments as a young Argentine in Spain. Key moments such as his interactions with future stars like Gerard Piqué, Cesc Fàbregas, as well as his significant contributions to Barcelona's youth and first teams, which are discussed in detail. This episode covers his early setbacks, first team debut, and eventual triumphs, culminating in his standout performance at the 2005 FIFA U20 World Cup. Join us as we uncover how Messi went from a promising youngster to an emerging superstar at Barcelona.

00:00 Introduction to the episode

00:40 Messi's Signing and Initial Challenges

01:15 Settling in Barcelona: Cultural and Personal Struggles

05:51 Integration and Early Successes

20:40 Political Chaos and Youth Team Dynamics

23:33 Messi's Rising Star and International Attention

27:06 First Impressions and Early Training

27:39 Debut and Initial Reactions

29:37 Contract Negotiations and Adjustments

32:48 National Team Dilemmas

38:31 Integration into Barcelona's First Team

46:27 Under-20 World Cup and Rising Stardom

51:18 Conclusion and Looking Ahead

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Clough's Conquest: Forest's Rise to European Glory | Part Four Oct 07, 2025

Show notes

In this episode of It Was What It Was, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the decline of Nottingham Forest following their European Cup victories. This final part of a four-part special looks at the financial turmoil, management struggles, and internal conflicts that marked the club's subsequent years. Join us as we discuss how the relationship between Brian Clough and Peter Taylor deteriorated, the club’s misjudged transfers, and the impact of Clough's growing dependence on alcohol. From the fallouts to the poignant departures, this episode covers the unraveling of a once-glorious team and the tragedy of a fractured partnership.

00:00 Financial Woes and Disappointment

00:50 The Decline Begins

02:32 Unraveling Behind the Scenes

04:18 Transfer Turmoil

09:24 Clough and Taylor's Strained Relationship

14:11 Financial Scandals and Internal Strife

18:05 The Breaking Point

29:03 Clough's Controversial Decisions

32:24 Financial Struggles and Player Transfers

37:18 Clough's Health and Alcohol Issues

45:02 The Breakup with Peter Taylor

48:20 Reflecting on Clough and Taylor's Legacy

51:29 Clough's Changing Management Style

53:43 The Greatest Achievement in European Football

55:28 Conclusion

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Clough's Conquest: Forest's Rise to European Glory | Part Three Sep 30, 2025

Show notes

In this episode of It Was What It Was, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue the story of Brian Clough’s Nottingham Forest, following on from their European Cup victory in the last episode. This third part of a four-part special covers the 1979-80 season, looking at how Forest overcame obstacles both on and off the pitch to claim their second successive European Cup. Within the season there are some highs and lows, from overcoming unexpected challenges, and navigating crucial European fixtures to dealing with internal instability and controversial management methods. From high-profile transfers to unforgettable European nights, tune in to discover how this extraordinary team went on to write another chapter in their illustrious history.

00:00 Introduction and Setting the Scene

01:03 Nottingham Forest's European Campaign Begins

01:28 Key Transfers and Management Decisions

07:47 Unexpected Challenges and Controversies

20:31 European Cup Quarter-Finals

28:52 The Importance of Team Camaraderie

30:19 Challenges and Strategies in European Matches

32:38 Player Management and Injuries

36:23 Prepping for the European Cup Final

42:49 The Final Match Against Hamburg

51:03 Post-Match Reflections and Legacy

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Clough's Conquest: Forest's Rise to European Glory | Part Two Sep 23, 2025

Show notes

In this episode of It Was What It Was, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their deep dive into Brian Clough's transformative tenure at Nottingham Forest. This second part of a four-part special, captures the thrilling journey as Forest ventures into the European Cup, starting from their incredible 5-1 victory over AEK Athens and leading up to their historic final against Malmö. Expect to hear detailed anecdotes and insights revealing Clough's unique management style, key matches and significant strategic decisions, including the controversial but ultimately successful signing of Trevor Francis for a British record fee. Join us to explore how a team from the second division ascended to the pinnacle of European football.

00:28 Introduction to Nottingham Forest's European Journey

01:26 Forest's Rise to European Dominance

01:46 The Quest for the European Cup

03:36 Strategic Moves and Key Decisions

10:02 Facing Liverpool in the European Cup

12:42 The Tactical Genius of Clough and Taylor

26:17 The Aftermath and Moving Forward

26:38 Unbeaten Streak and Chairman Change

27:35 European Cup Drama: Forest vs. AEK Athens

28:19 Clough's Management Style and Larry Lloyd Incident

30:55 Training Anecdotes and Managerial Hypocrisy

37:39 Trevor Francis Joins Forest

40:51 League Cup Final and European Cup Quarter-Finals

42:25 Semi-Final Showdown Against Cologne

48:37 European Cup Final Against Malmö

55:27 Forest Crowned European Champions

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Clough's Conquest: Forest's Rise to European Glory | Part One Sep 16, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper set the stage for Brian Clough’s remarkable journey to becoming manager of Nottingham Forest in this first part of a four-part-special. After his departure from Leeds, Clough takes on the challenge of revitalising a mid-table second division team into a team that dominates English and European football. Clough's reunion with assistant Peter Taylor plays a pivotal role as they sign key players like Peter Shilton and Kenny Burns. This episode looks at the early challenges faced, strategic player signings, and the pivotal moments that laid the groundwork for Nottingham Forest's incredible achievements. Join us as we set the stage for one of football's most astonishing success stories.

01:09 The Rise and Fall of Brian Clough

08:30 Clough's Early Struggles at Nottingham Forest

21:03 Clough's Confrontational Style

24:44 Building the Foundation for Success

27:07 The Clough-Taylor Partnership

27:39 Taylor's Reluctance and Reconciliation

28:52 Building a Winning Team

31:16 The Anglo-Scottish Cup Victory

33:37 Promotion to the Top Flight

34:43 Strengthening the Squad

36:33 Clough's England Manager Candidacy

42:11 A Defensive Strategy for Success

46:46 Winning the League and Beyond

52:15 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser

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Red Devils on The Brink: United’s Dramatic Demise 1985-86 Sep 09, 2025

Show notes

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into Manchester United’s 1985-86 season - a campaign filled with promise, passion, and ultimately, heartbreak.

A year that began with soaring hopes and a record-breaking unbeaten run, unravels in a whirlwind of injuries, off-field drama, and missed opportunities. We’ll explore the highs and lows of Ron Atkinson’s final full season in charge, from the electric atmosphere at Old Trafford to the heartbreak of falling short in the title race. Expect in-depth analysis of key matches, player performances, and the pivotal moments that defined the season as Rob and Jonathan relive the excitement, the agony, and the legacy of 1985-86.

00:29 – The 1985-86 Season: High Hopes and Early Promise

01:49 – Ron Atkinson’s Arrival and United’s Managerial History

04:38 – The Big Ron Era: Style, Successes, and Setbacks

08:41 – The Bryan Robson Factor: United’s Dependence

13:23 – Squad Building, Transfers, and Team Dynamics

17:13 – Cup Runs, League Frustrations, and Dressing Room Drama

24:50 – The State of English Football in the Mid-80s

25:59 – The 1985-86 Season Kicks Off

27:50 – United’s Record-Breaking Start

32:41 – The Winning Streak and Early League Dominance

39:13 – Injuries, Draws, and the Beginning of the Decline

43:34 – Mark Hughes’ Transfer Saga and Off-Field Turmoil

47:03 – The Drinking Culture and Its Impact

49:43 – The Collapse: Losing Form and the Title

54:56 – The End of the Atkinson Era

59:18 – The Arrival of Sir Alex Ferguson & Reflections

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A Long Road to Glory: The Lionesses Origin Story | Part Two Sep 05, 2025

Show notes

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast hosted by Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper. In this second episode of a two-part special, we delve into the pivotal moments that lifted the 50-year ban on women's football in England. From the formation of the Women’s Football Association, to looking at the birth of the Lionesses and their first official international match. This episode looks at the pioneering women and their allies who revived the game in the 1960s, building grassroots clubs, fighting for recognition to pave the way for women’s football today. Tune in to hear all about the history of the women’s game.

00:00 The End of the Ban

00:28 Picking Up the Pieces: Women’s Football After the Ban

00:53 The 1960s Revival: Grassroots and New Teams

03:10 The Impact of England’s 1966 World Cup Win

07:54 Building a Movement: Key Figures and Early Clubs

10:56 Struggles for Facilities and Recognition

12:50 International Influence

21:22 The Formation of the Women’s Football Association

24:32 The FA’s Changing Attitude and Official Recognition

27:20 The First Women’s FA Cup and International Competitions

29:40 Tensions: Unofficial vs. Official Tournaments

36:52 The Lost Lionesses: Mexico 1971 and Unrecognised Pioneers

40:26 The First Official Lionesses Game: Scotland vs. England, 1972

45:44 Media Coverage and Social Attitudes

47:44 Timeline: From the First Match to Modern Success

50:08 Reflections: The Legacy of the Pioneers

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A Long Road to Glory: The Lionesses Origin Story | Part One Sep 02, 2025

Show notes

Welcome back to another episode of It Was What It Was with hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper as they delve into the history of The Lionesses and the true story behind the first ever women's Euros. This episode explores the struggles and triumphs of women's football, from the controversial FA ban in 1921, to England's historic victory in the 2025 Euros. Rob and Jonathan look into the pioneering efforts of teams like the Dick, Kerr Ladies and the Manchester Corinthians, looking at how women's football overcame a 50-year ban to shine on the world stage. Join us as we uncover the groundbreaking stories and resilient pioneers behind this incredible journey through a century of women's football history.

00:00 Introduction: Girls and Football

00:51 The Ban on Women's Football

01:37 The Struggle and Triumph of Women's Football

03:02 The Dick, Kerr Ladies and Their Legacy

04:22 The Impact of the FA Ban

07:00 International Tours and Recognition

12:59 Manchester Corinthians: A New Hope

18:34 Cultural Contrasts in Women's Football

20:48 The First Women's Euros: A Hidden History

22:10 The Rise and Fall of the International Ladies Football Association

26:21 Manchester Corinthians: Pioneers of Women's Football

32:21 Missed Opportunities and Reflections

38:44 Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions

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Spurs '91: Gascoigne, Gold, and the FA Cup with Ewan Flynn Aug 29, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper welcome special guest Euan Flynn, author of 'When the Year Ends in One,' to discuss Tottenham Hotspur's momentous 1990-91 season. The episode delves into Paul Gascoigne's tearful departure due to a career-threatening injury during the FA Cup final and the financial turmoil facing the club, which saw a potential world-record transfer deal collapse. The podcast covers the epic highs and disastrous lows of that pivotal season, from Gascoigne's mesmerizing FA Cup run to the behind-the-scenes financial entanglements involving Irving Scholar and the club's eventual acquisition by Alan Sugar. Tune in for an in-depth look at how this season had ramifications far beyond the football pitch.

00:00 Gascoigne's Injury and Tottenham's Financial Crisis

00:37 Introduction to the Special Episode

01:41 The Pivotal 1990-91 Season

02:19 Tottenham's Financial Woes and Ownership Issues

04:03 The Year Ending in One: A Superstition Explained

05:21 Gascoigne's Meteoric Rise and Media Frenzy

08:02 The Illusion of a Title Challenge

10:18 Irving Scholar's Takeover and Financial Missteps

21:13 The Culture and Discipline at Tottenham

23:46 The FA Cup Run Begins

31:36 The Pressure on Young Athletes

32:28 The Semifinal at Wembley

34:00 Venables and the Mysterious Financier

40:34 The FA Cup Final Build-Up

47:23 The Dramatic FA Cup Final

54:36 The Aftermath and Legacy

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Before Maradona and Messi: The Tragic Tale of Oreste Corbatta Aug 26, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.

This week co-hosts Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson delve into the life of OrestesCorbatta, a legendary Argentine footballer whose story combines brilliance and tragedy. Known for his dazzling dribbling skills and audacious playstyle, Corbatta played a crucial role in Argentina's 1957 Campeonato Sudamericano win. However, despite his football genius, Corbatta's life was marred by alcoholism and personal struggles.

The episode explores his rise from a rural town to becoming a national icon, his struggles with illiteracy, and the personal traumas that impacted his career. Draper and Wilson also discuss the broader significance of Corbatta's style in the context of Argentine football, drawing parallels to legends like Maradona and Messi.

Join us as we remember the poetic yet tragic life of Omar Orestes Corbatta, a player whose legacy continues to influence Argentine football today.

00:00 Introduction

01:31 The Significance of the 1957 Campeonato Sudamericano

04:39 The Evolution of Argentinian Football

09:34 The Five Simbas and Their Impact

16:08 The Role of Radio in Argentinian Football Culture

19:31 The Decline and Shift in Argentinian Football

23:42 The Duality of Argentinian Football: Beauty and Cynicism

26:15 The Tragic Figure of Coba

27:25 Early Life and Struggles

29:49 Rise to Fame and Personal Challenges

33:50 The Decline Begins