It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Latest Episodes:

Escape to Victory: The Cult Classic with Pele, Bobby Moore and Sylvester Stallone | Christmas Special Dec 23, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this Christmas Special Episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author John Smith to talk about his new book - 'Escape: A Love Letter to a Cult Football Classic' all about the film 'Escape to Victory'. The trio delve into the making of the film, revealing behind-the-scenes stories, discussing the film's historical context, and analysing the football sequences. We take a look at inside stories from the remarkable cast and crew, including Pele and Sylvester Stallone. The three discuss amusing anecdotes, the authenticity of the football matches and the film's lasting impact. This episode is a must-listen for fans of film and football history. Wishing you all a Merry Christmas from the It Was What It Was team!

00:00 Introduction and Welcoming John Smith

04:41 The Making of 'Escape to Victory'

20:44 Historical Resonances and Themes

28:59 Behind the Scenes Stories

34:09 The Escape Plan in the Film

37:11 The Cast and Their Connections

41:36 The Missing Footballer Mystery

46:01 Lack of Female Characters

47:06 The Football Game Analysis

53:19 The Half-Time Escape Plan

58:00 The Final Match Moments

01:06:13 Concluding Thoughts and Farewell

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The Cold War Classico: George Orwell on Dinamo Moscow, Arsenal & Chelsea Dec 16, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into George Orwell's infamous essay on sport, specifically focusing on Dinamo Moscow's 1945 tour of Britain. They explore Orwell's controversial viewpoint that serious sport is akin to 'war minus the shooting,' and delve into the historical and political context of this post-WWII football tour. The discussion covers the tactical innovations introduced by the Soviet team, the media and public's reaction, and the broader implications for international sport and politics. This episode provides an in-depth look at how football can both unite and divide, reflecting on Orwell's critique and its relevance to today's sports culture.

00:00 Introduction: The Dark Side of Sports

01:05 George Orwell's Influence on Sports

01:49 The Political Context of the 1945 Moscow Tour

02:47 The Goodwill Tour: Ideals vs. Reality

05:00 The Soviet Union's Football Strategy

08:23 The Arrival of Dinamo Moscow

21:45 The First Match: Dinamo Moscow vs Chelsea

30:53 The Political Showdown: Arsenal vs Dinamo Moscow

32:31 The Final Game in Scotland

35:56 Soviet Propaganda and the Legacy of the Tour

40:36 Tactical Innovations and English Football's Response

47:36 George Orwell's Critique of Sport

53:18 Football's Role in Nationalism and International Relations

01:00:51 Concluding Thoughts on Orwell and Football

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British Society: Through The Lens of Football Dec 09, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest and historian David Goldblatt. In this episode, they discuss David's new book, 'Injury Time,' which examines the impact of recent seismic events like Brexit, COVID-19, and populism on football in Britain. They delve into the popularity of football despite its numerous challenges, the economic disparities within the game, and the global obsession with the Premier League. The conversation also touches on the significance of football as a cultural and political space, the rise of women's football, and the ethical concerns surrounding state ownership of clubs. They also examine the role of fans and community. This episode provides a comprehensive look at the current state and the future of the beautiful game.

00:00 Introduction

00:55 The State of Football Today

03:21 Football as a National Obsession

07:41 Globalisation and Football's Cultural Impact

19:12 Economic Disparities in Football

21:35 Football Reflecting Social Inequalities

29:50 Football's Role in Social and Political Issues

31:20 The Role of Football in Society

33:38 Economic Inequality in Football

36:50 The Super League Controversy

41:25 Cultural Resistance and Football's Future

54:42 The Impact of COVID on Football

59:20 State Involvement in Football

01:02:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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The Russian Pele: The Scandal of Eduard Streltsov | Part Two Dec 02, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper look into the dark and controversial period of Streltsov’s life. In this second part we cover the heinous crime that Streltsov was accused of, the subsequent trial and conviction, and his years in the Gulag. Despite the damning evidence, Streltsov's eventual return to football and continued popularity are explored, along with the societal implications and unresolved questions surrounding his story. Join us for a detailed look at both the fall and unexpected resurgence of a man once considered the 'Russian Pele.’

This episode contains discussion of sexual abuse and rape, which some listeners may find distressing. If you’ve been affected by any of the issues raised, the NHS provides a list of support services and resources here:

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/help-after-rape-and-sexual-assault

00:00 A Dark Story Unfolds

00:31 The Accusation and Confession

04:50 The Aftermath and Public Reaction

05:40 Evidence and Forensic Details

07:05 The State's Role

08:22 Personal Struggles and Downfall

23:42 Speculations and Suspicions

26:14 The Case Against Streltsov

28:14 The Soviet State's Role

30:31 Marina's Disappearance

32:08 Life in the Gulag

40:15 Streltsov’s Return to Football

48:21 Legacy and Controversy

52:06 Conclusion

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The Russian Pele: The Scandal of Eduard Streltsov | Part One Nov 25, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper delve into the story of Eduard Streltsov, the 'Russian Pele'. In the first part of this two-part series, we trace Streltsov's meteoric rise from a poor upbringing to becoming a celebrated football talent. Witness his groundbreaking performances, his early brush with fame, and the personal flaws that began to unravel his career. Discover the events leading up to the fateful allegations that would ultimately tarnish his legacy. Join us as we unveil the complexities and the promises cut short in the life of one of Soviet football's most enigmatic figures.

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/help-after-rape-and-sexual-assault

00:00 Introduction

03:38 The Soviet Football Landscape in the 1950s

09:35 Streltsov's Early Life and Family Background

16:31 Streltsov's Football Career Takes Off

20:40 The 1956 Olympics and Missed Opportunities

25:17 The Medal That Never Was

27:01 The Downfall Begins

30:37 A Pattern of Trouble

49:50 Streltsov's Arrest

50:12 Confession and Public Outcry

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Imre Hirschl: The Hungarian Trailblazer of South American Football | Part Two Nov 18, 2025

Show notes

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue the extraordinary story of Imre Hirschl, the Hungarian who revolutionised South American football. In this second part, we look into Hirschl's impact on Uruguay's historic 1950 World Cup victory and his innovative tactics at Club Atlético Peñarol and River Plate. Discover how Hirschl's genius and controversial methods shaped football history, transforming teams and leaving a lasting legacy on the footballing world.

00:45 The Tactical Mastermind Behind Uruguay's Success

01:55 Controversial Matches and Referee Decisions

05:20 The Dominance of the Big Five in Argentinian Football

08:37 Hirschl's move to River Plate

11:59 Tactical Evolution and Direct Play

16:55 Hircshl’s Downfall and Match-Fixing Allegations

21:06 Return to Coaching and Success in Uruguay

28:22 Strict Discipline and Unique Methods

29:09 Young Players and Team Dynamics

31:14 Campaign for National Coach

31:59 Political Disputes and Appointments

33:22 World Cup Preparations and Chaos

35:43 Uruguay's Tactical Genius

37:11 The Shocking World Cup Final

43:48 Aftermath and Legacy

44:58 Hirschl's Influence and Final Years

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Imre Hirschl: The Hungarian Trailblazer of South American Football | Part One Nov 11, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper deep dive into the extraordinary story of Imre Hirschl, the Hungarian who took South American football by storm. In this first part of a two-part series we hear the story of Hirschl's early life, his emigration to South America, and his unexpected rise to coaching fame in Argentina. From starting as a salami salesman to becoming the mastermind behind Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata's success, Hirschl's tale is one of perseverance, innovation, and tactical genius. Tune in to discover the myths, challenges, and triumphs of this unlikely football legend who redefined the game during the early 20th century.

00:00 The Unlikely Beginnings of a Coaching Legend

03:46 The Hungarian Influence on South American Football

07:59 Unraveling the Myths and Realities

09:40 A Journey Through War and Immigration

16:29 The Butcher Turned Football Visionary

21:55 The Mystery of Hirschl's Football Career

24:38 Meeting Béla Guttmann and the Next Chapter

26:21 Hirschl's Coaching Journey Begins

28:14 Tactical Innovations and Success

30:21 Challenges and Triumphs in Argentina

31:14 Early Coaching Stint in Brazil

32:42 Struggles and Determination

42:21 Hirschl's Coaching Philosophy

46:48 Building a Winning Team

49:32 Conclusion and Future Prospects

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How Data Won the Premier League: Liverpool and the Rise of Modern Metrics | Part Two Nov 04, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part on data in football, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their exploration into how data analytics transformed modern football. This episode delves into Liverpool's remarkable journey using data and how it helped them to win the Champions League in 2019 and the Premier League in 2020. We take a look at the story behind key figures like Ian Graham and Michael Edwards, exploring their early skepticism, the challenges they faced, and the groundbreaking decisions that followed. Discover how Liverpool's recruitment strategy evolved with data, featuring key transfers such as Sadio Mané, Mohamed Salah, and Andy Robertson. Discover the tensions and synergies between data-driven decisions and traditional football instincts that reshaped Liverpool and influenced their remarkable success under Jürgen Klopp.

00:44 The Role of Data in Football

02:00 Key Figures: Ian Graham and Michael Edwards

03:17 Michael Edwards' Journey

07:18 Early Skepticism and Challenges

12:39 Liverpool's Data Revolution

14:54 Transfer Market Strategies

18:35 Cultural Clashes and Successes

26:24 Ian Graham's Role in Liverpool's Data Revolution

27:42 The Transfer Committee's Struggles and Criticisms

30:23 Jurgen Klopp's Introduction to Data Analytics

35:49 The Impact of Data on Key Signings

42:12 The Evolution and Challenges of Data-Driven Decisions

44:43 The Future of Data in Football

51:47 Conclusion

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How Data Won the Premier League: Liverpool and the Rise of Modern Metrics | Part One Oct 28, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by journalist, broadcaster and author of 'Expected Goals: The story of how data conquered football and changed the game' Rory Smith. In today’s episode we explore the fascinating journey of data analytics in football. From the early days of Charles Reep and Valeriy Lobanovskyi's basic data collection to the revolutionary 1990s that saw a surge in clubs like Liverpool using a data-driven approach under Ian Graham and Michael Edwards to lead to Premier League success. We also look at how clubs like Bolton Wanderers under Sam Allardyce leveraged data to gain a competitive edge and and the cultural shift towards data in football management. Tune in to understand how data played a crucial role in some of the greatest footballing successes of the modern era.

00:00 Introduction and Welcoming Rory Smith

00:42 The Evolution of Data in Football

01:29 The Role of Data Collectors

05:04 Prozone and Early Data Pioneers

11:17 The Culture War: Nerds vs. Scouts

12:17 Sam Allardyce: The Unlikely Data Advocate

23:32 Moneyball and Its Impact on Football

27:24 Decision Technology and Early Predictions

28:06 The Role of Data in Football Predictions

28:48 The Fink Tank Column and Its Impact

31:09 Spurs' Missed Opportunity with Data

32:56 Tottenham's Early Adoption of Data Analytics

41:11 Liverpool's Data-Driven Transformation

47:10 The Cultural Shift Towards Data in Football

58:44 The Importance of Communication in Data Utilisation

59:45 Conclusion

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Messi's Magic: Barcelona's Golden Era | Part Two Oct 21, 2025

Show notes

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second episode of a two-part special, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their exploration of Lionel Messi's early years, focusing on his journey from 2005 to the cusp of greatness in 2008. This episode delves into pivotal moments such as Messi's breakthrough in Barcelona's first team, his dramatic red card on his Argentina debut, and his developing relationship with key figures like Ronaldinho. We take a look at Messi's significant impact in the Joan Gamper Trophy, his hat-trick against Real Madrid in the El Clásico, and his stunning solo goal against Getafe. The episode also sheds light on the internal struggles and political tensions within Argentina's national team during the 2006 World Cup, and the influence of Barcelona's management in shaping Messi's career path. Join us as explore the trials and triumphs that shaped Messi into one of football's greatest ever.

00:00 Introduction: Messi's Early Brilliance

00:40 Messi's Breakthrough in 2005

01:23 Homesickness

04:00 Argentina Debut: A Rocky Start

09:25 Barcelona's Dilemma

11:31 Rising Star: The Joan Gamper Trophy

13:52 Contract Negotiations and Transfer Rumors

17:34 Messi's Impact in La Liga and Champions League

25:29 Messi's Diet and Lifestyle Concerns

26:11 Injury Setback and Return to Training

27:26 Champions League Final Disappointment

31:22 World Cup 2006: Argentina's Journey