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    Christianity

    Gospel Tangents Podcast

    A 360-degree view of Mormonism. We interview the best Mormon scholars, scientists, and clergy from all restoration branches, including LDS, Community of Christ, Strangites, Bickertonites, Temple Lot, Remnant, etc.

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    Copyright: © 2019 Gospel Tangents - All Rights Reserved

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    Latest Episodes:
    Only Polygamy in Heaven? (Jacob Vidrine 5 of 8) Nov 22, 2025
    Show notes

    Will there be polygamy in heaven? We're diving into Ross LeBaron story with Jacob Vidrine of the Church of the Firstborn. I'll also ask Jacob if polygamy a requirement for the Celestial Kingdom. Will it be monogamy or polygamy in heaven? His answer surprised me! We discuss Law of Adoption & the Manifesto ending polygamy in the LDS Church as well. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/m20kOKhSdLA 0:00 1st Successor: Ross LeBaron 13:57 Law of Adoption 22:03 Requirement for Polygamy in Heaven? 28:59 Manifesto Don’t miss our other conversations with Jacob: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jacob-vidrine Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission Nauvoo Foundation: Priesthood Above Church To understand the LeBaron claim, one must look back to Nauvoo Mormonism, where Joseph Smith introduced the concept of higher orders of priesthood. This "highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood" was often referred to as the "fullness of the priesthood" and involved making men and women "kings and priests" in temple ordinances. Associated with this was the Council of 50, which Joseph Smith established just months before his death as the "literal government" or "political kingdom of God on the earth.” Historical evidence suggests that the Council of 50 was intended to be a presiding priesthood body that held authority no church tribunal could control. Benjamin F. Johnson was one of the men added to the Council of 50 on March 26, 1844, just before Joseph Smith's death. Johnson was a close friend of Joseph Smith and was taught directly about plural marriage, endowments, garments, and the Second Anointing. Johnson later asserted that he was authorized by Joseph Smith "to teach this to others when I'm was led to do so.” After the Council of 50 ceased meeting (it became defunct after 1885/1911 when Joseph F. Smith denied the request to reconvene it), Johnson emphasized that he was the last living original member of the Council of 50. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Transmission of the Birthright The LeBaron authority claim rests on Johnson passing this special, secret Nauvoo authority—which included the Fullness of the Priesthood and involvement in the Kingdom of God structure—to his grandson, Alma Dayer LeBaron (Dayer.) This transfer of keys was unusual because it bypassed Dayer's own father, Benjamin Franklin LeBaron. The LeBaron family justified this by drawing analogies to the Old Testament, such as Jacob appointing Ephraim the birthright over his older brother Manasseh. The lineage runs: Joseph Smith à Benjamin F. Johnson à Alma Dayer LeBaron. The family tradition holds that in the mid-1890s, when Dayer was about 10 years old, Johnson gave him a patriarchal blessing appointing him to hold the "birthright of Joseph Smith.” This "birthright" concept relates to special blessings given in the Nauvoo Temple, granting "special authority to authorize the temple... work for the dead" within a family context. Before Johnson died (around 1905), he reportedly charged Dayer to "carry on the kingdom" and conferred upon him all the priesthood that Johnson had received from Joseph Smith. Dayer spent the remainder of his life establishing his family and practicing plural marriage in Mexico, having been excommunicated from the LDS Church. Because he was secretive about his authority claim, Dayer was sometimes called the "silent prophet" or "quiet heir of the kingdom.” LeBaron Split: Ross's Unique Theology Following Dayer's death in the early 1950s without naming a clear successor, a succession crisis ensued, leading to major schisms among his sons: Ben (who was mentally unwell), Ross Wesley LeBaron (second oldest), and Joel LeBaron (a younger son.) Ross, who operated primarily in Utah, built his claim on a commission received from Dayer in 1950 to carry on the "patriarchal work.” Ross emphasized a cosmology that directly reflected the Nauvoo concepts: Patriarchal Priesthood as Highest Authority: Ross taught that the Church of the Firstborn was a higher church above the Church of Jesus Christ. This was the priesthood restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in the Kirtland Temple. Dissemination of Authority: Unlike the Woolley line, which concentrated power in a central "Council of Friends," Ross's theology focused on giving this highest authority (patriarchal keys) to many worthy men for their own family spheres, acting as a check and balance against the concentration of power. Emphasis on Work over Title: Ross received a revelation that affirmed, "the honor is in the work, not the title," which distinguished his ministry from other fundamentalists focused solely on claiming specific offices. The distinct nature of this lineage—tracing independent temple and kingdom authority through a Council of 50 member rather than through the apostolic line—is why LeBaronism remains a peculiar and historically fascinating branch of Mormon fundamentalism. Status of Monogamists in Celestial Kingdom Historically, leaders whose teachings form the basis of fundamentalist theology (such as Brigham Young and Lyman Wight) taught that monogamous people can go to the celestial kingdom. Faithfulness, Not Numbers: The primary factor for achieving the celestial kingdom is how faithful you are to the gospel, not simply the number of wives one possesses. A "Gallon Measure": When questioned about whether a man could be exalted without plural wives, Brigham Young reportedly responded using an analogy: "you can't put a gallon and a pint measure, but both can be made filled full.” He concluded that "If a man is faithful with one wife, he may grow to be a gallon measure.” Requirement of Acceptance: The view held by those attempting to harmonize these teachings is that a faithful monogamist must accept plural marriage in their faith as being a true principle in order to qualify for the celestial kingdom. Polygamy in Heaven: Attaining the Highest Glory and Godhood While a monogamist can achieve the celestial kingdom, the practice of plural marriage is tied to the highest level of exaltation and becoming a God. Greater Glory: Polygamists are understood to attain a greater glory in the celestial kingdom. The Law of Godhood: The perspective is that if "we do not live the same law that our heavenly father lives then we cannot go where he is," suggesting that plural marriage is part of the law of Godhood. Therefore, in order to be a god, you will have to eventually practice polygamy. Priesthood Authority: The doctrine of John Taylor maintained that a man living a "lower law cannot preside over a man living a higher law.” The fulfillment of the "celestial law" (including plural marriage) is seen as a "stepping stone to exaltation" and to the "responsibility of godhood.” Degrees of Glory (Specific Cosmologies): Within some fundamentalist cosmologies (like that articulated by Ross LeBaron, derived partially from Lorin Woolley), the degrees of the celestial kingdom are associated with plural marriage. One specific cosmology suggested that attaining the highest degree of the celestial kingdom might require seven or more wives, the middle degree five, and the bottom degree three. However, Ross LeBaron viewed these as "celestial patterns that aren't necessarily attained on earth.” In summary, fundamentalist theology generally holds that acceptance of plural marriage as a true principle is essential for celestial glory, and its eventual practice is considered necessary for the greatest glory and achieving Godhood. Ross LeBaron's particular theology, however, often took plural marriage for granted and focused more heavily on the patriarchal priesthood and keys necessary for the "higher church" (the Church of the Firstborn.) Don’t miss our other conversations with Jacob: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jacob-vidrine Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission


    LeBaron Succession (Jacob Vidrine 4 of 4) Nov 19, 2025
    Show notes

    Jacob Vidrine discusses LeBaron succession! You may have heard of Ervil, Joel, and Ross LeBaron. Who took charge after Alma Dayer LeBaron died? Check out our conversation.... https://youtu.be/6NckTz7ateA Don’t miss our other conversations with Jacob: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jacob-vidrine Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission LeBaron Divide: Priesthood, Power, & Struggle for the Birthright When the name LeBaron is mentioned in discussions of Mormon fundamentalism, often the first person who comes to mind is the notorious Ervil LeBaron, a murderer who had a hit list and was a murderer and died in jail. However, the complex history of the LeBaron family and their unique claims to priesthood authority—separate from most other fundamentalist groups like the FLDS, AUB, and Woolley-ites—reveals a fascinating succession crisis rooted deep in Nauvoo-era doctrine. We will discuss how the LeBarons obtained their distinct authority and how their patriarch’s death fractured the family into multiple competing groups across Utah and Mexico. Peculiar Lineage: Tracing Authority to Benjamin F. Johnson Unlike the majority of fundamentalists who trace their authority back to the 1886 revelation received by John Taylor (the Woolley line), the LeBaron authority stems from a different source. This lineage is traced to Benjamin F. Johnson, a close friend of Joseph Smith and a member of the secretive Council of 50. The LeBaron authority claim relies on the concept of the “fullness of the priesthood” or the "highest order of the priesthood," authority that Joseph Smith introduced in Nauvoo. This highest order involved making men "kings and priests" and conferring the sealing power. Johnson, who emphasized his role as the "last living original member of the Council of 50," taught that Joseph Smith authorized him to teach these keys—plural marriage, endowments, garments, and the second anointing—to others when led by the Holy Spirit. This unique priesthood was considered "above the church," creating an authority that "no tribunal in the church could control.” Johnson, near his death (circa 1903-1905), charged his grandson, Alma Dayer "Dayer" LeBaron Sr., to carry on this special family birthright and the work of the kingdom.Hesitant Patriarch and the Failed Succession Dayer LeBaron Sr., born in 1886, entered into plural marriage in the 1920s and moved his family to Mexico to escape prosecution, spending the rest of his life carving out a homestead there. Due to his secretive nature (leading to the nickname "The Silent Prophet") and the mental decline of his intended firstborn successor, Benjamin. Dayer was hesitant to teach his younger children about his specific authority claims. By 1950, Dayer's health was failing rapidly; he was bedridden, suffering from paralysis, and could barely communicate. This severe decline set the stage for a succession crisis, as Dayer maintained that he could not appoint a successor "until the Holy Ghost tells me who to appoint.” The resulting conflict split the family authority claims into three main groups: Benjamin (Ben): The oldest son, who had experienced mental episodes and claimed to be "the one mighty and strong," attempted to coax a blessing from his dying father, causing distress among the family. Joel LeBaron: One of the younger sons living in Mexico, Joel was told that the birthright was his "if I don’t give it to one of the other boys.” This vague pronouncement was hardly a solid foundation for leadership. Ross Wesley LeBaron (Wesley): The second oldest son, who spent most of his life ministering in Utah, had already received a patriarchal blessing from his father in 1950, conferring keys of the patriarchal order of priesthood (the keys restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in Kirtland.) Ross was prevented from traveling to his father’s deathbed in Mexico because he was under bond in Utah related to polygamy. Ross claimed he received a revelation urging him not to ask for the "birthright" title, but instead to ask for a "commission to carry on the patriarchal work.” This revelation emphasized a key tenet of his ministry: "the honor is in the work, not the title.” The Split: Utah vs. Mexico LeBaron Succession Dayer LeBaron ultimately died in 1951 without clearly naming a successor. The lack of clear leadership led to an immediate schism: Ross LeBaron in Utah: Ross stood on the independent authority he had been commissioned to carry on and began proclaiming himself as the successor, claiming he had received the voice of the spirit telling him the patriarchal work was now on his shoulders. He established his group simply as The Church of the Firstborn. The Mexico LeBarons: Joel, Ervil, and Alma Jr. (the Mexico sons) initially failed to accept their father's priesthood authority fully. They reached out to the broader fundamentalist community, inviting Margarito Bautista to come organize them. They sustained Bautista and accepted the leadership of Rulon Allred (the proto-AUB group) for several years, from 1951 up to 1955. Joel's Church: In 1955, Joel split off from the AUB/Woolley influence to found The Church of the Firstborn in the Fullness of Times in Mexico, which grew to a significant size, peaking at several thousand members. The Violent End: Joel's success was tragically cut short when Ervil LeBaron, who was Joel's second-in-command, had a schism with Joel, leading to Ervil being excommunicated. Ervil went on to found the Church of the Lamb of God and committed the terrible acts of violence and murder that brought the LeBaron name infamy. Ervil was responsible for not only his brother Joel’s death, but Rulon Allred as well. The history of the LeBarons illustrates how complex foundational priesthood claims, combined with vague successions and sibling rivalries, led to divergent paths—one emphasizing ministry (Ross) and others ending in notoriety and violence (Ervil.) Don’t miss our other conversations with Jacob: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jacob-vidrine Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission


    Benjamin F Johnson (Jacob Vidrine 3 of 4) Nov 16, 2025
    Show notes

    Jacob Vidrine tells how authority transferred from Benjamin F Johnson in Nauvoo to Alma Dayer LeBaron and the LeBaron groups. Check out our conversation... The LeBaron authority line, originating from Benjamin F. Johnson, is like a secret royal charter given directly by the king (Joseph Smith) to a trusted advisor, authorizing him to establish a new subsidiary branch of the kingdom. While other fundamentalist lines (Woolleyites) claim authority based on a later, more public decree (John Taylor's revelation), the LeBaron claim bypasses that decree entirely, asserting that they hold the direct, foundational keys passed down in private, reserved councils from the original founder, allowing them to continue the highest work of the kingdom regardless of later organizational changes. 0:00 Succession Crisis 11:15 End of Council of 50 19:45 Ben Johnson Ordains Grandsons 25:56 Ervil, Joel, Ross, & Dayer LeBaron 37:38 Woolley-ite Split Don’t miss our other conversations with Jacob: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jacob-vidrine Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission When most people, particularly those familiar with the history of the Latter-day Saint (LDS) Church, think of Mormon fundamentalism, their minds often drift immediately to groups like the FLDS or the AUB, tracing their origins back to the Lorin Woolley story. These groups represent 80 to 90% of fundamentalists who trace their authority back to the story of John Taylor receiving an 1886 revelation to keep plural marriage alive. However, the history of fundamentalism is far more complex, encompassing groups like the Kingstons and the LeBarons, who assert a distinct and separate line of authority. The LeBaron family lineage, from which the Church of the Firstborn descends, presents one of the most peculiar and historically rich claims in fundamentalist Mormonism, tracing its authority back to the Nauvoo period of Joseph Smith’s ministry. The LeBaron name often carries stigma due to Ervil LeBaron, who led the Church of the Lamb of God and was a convicted murderer. This historical exploration focuses on the lineage claimed by the Ross LeBaron line, or "Firstborners," who are not associated with Ervil’s violence. Roots of LeBaron Authority: Nauvoo Priesthood To understand the LeBaron claim, one must examine the higher orders of priesthood introduced by Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. This era saw the introduction of new temple rituals, doctrines pertaining to godhood, and work for the dead. Central to this was the concept of the "fullness of the priesthood" or "highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood," associated with making men and women kings and priests and queens and priestesses. Joseph Smith taught that this authority derived from keys restored in the Kirtland Temple by Moses, Elias, and Elijah. Statements from the time suggest that those who received this highest authority—such as the second anointing—held the potential to restore the entire church and kingdom, possessing power to officiate in any office from the lowest to the highest. This higher authority was sometimes referred to as patriarchal priesthood. This higher order was perceived as priesthood above the church. During the trial of Sidney Rigdon, for example, Heber C. Kimball stated that Rigdon, despite being a member of the First Presidency, did not hold the same "higher authority" possessed by more than 30 other men. This higher authority may have referred to members of the Anointed Quorum or the Council of Fifty. Council of Fifty & Sealing Power The Council of Fifty, established in the last months before Joseph Smith’s death, was intended to be the political kingdom of God on earth, functioning as a literal government. However, historical sources suggest it was viewed by many, including Lyman Wight and critical "Brewster-ites," as a presiding priesthood body that held authority no church tribunal could control. Brigham Young himself stated that the Council of Fifty would be the "governing and presiding body of this kingdom," defying anyone to draw a dividing line between its spiritual and temporal affairs. This Council of Fifty was also the setting for Joseph Smith’s "last charge" speech, where he is traditionally recorded as rolling the responsibility of establishing the kingdom onto the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. However, some accounts, including a statement from Brigham Young in the 1845 Council of Fifty minutes, corrected the notion that the charge was solely to the Twelve, asserting that it was a charge to the entire Council of Fifty to "bear off the kingdom to all the world.” Benjamin F Johnson: The Claim Holder The LeBaron authority traces directly to a specific member of the Council of Fifty and an intimate friend of Joseph Smith: Benjamin F Johnson. Johnson was among the men added to the Council of Fifty on March 26, 1844, during a meeting where Joseph Smith "continued his instructions on heavenly matter[s].” Johnson was also the last living original member of the Council of Fifty, a fact he repeatedly emphasized in his later writings. Johnson was taught by Joseph Smith about temple ordinances, plural marriage, endowments, garments, and the second anointing from the beginning. Crucially, Johnson claimed that Joseph Smith authorized him "to teach this to others when I was led to do so.” In a 1903 letter to the First Presidency, Johnson referred to other things that Joseph taught to us in this council that I am not at liberty to write, emphasizing that Joseph had told him: Benjamin, those things that have been committed to you, you are authorized to commit them to others when you are led to do so by the... Holy Spirit. Johnson was claiming exclusive secret knowledge and independent authority stemming from his temple experience and Joseph Smith's charge. LeBaron Lineage: Dayer’s Claim The distinct LeBaron fundamentalist claim arises because Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. (Dayer), the family patriarch, was Benjamin F. Johnson’s grandson. Dayer received a patriarchal blessing from Johnson in the mid-1890s when Dayer was about ten years old, which family tradition holds appointed him to be the birthright of Joseph Smith. This connection was bolstered by the family tradition that the LeBarons were spiritually Joseph Smith’s posterity, drawing on the Nauvoo/early Utah concept of leverite marriage where children born after a sealing to Joseph would be considered his eternal seed. The blessing record itself mentioned holding the "birthright in... thy father’s house," using the exact verbiage John Taylor had used for appointing family birthrights in the Nauvoo Temple. According to the LeBaron family, Johnson charged Dayer near his death (1903–1905) to "carry on the kingdom" and conferred upon him all the priesthood that Johnson had received from Joseph Smith. Dayer spent his life attempting to establish a colony in Mexico and entered plural marriage in the 1920s, which led to his excommunication from the LDS Church. Dayer was generally secretive about his authority claim, often referred to by his daughter as "The Silent Prophet.” However, antagonist witnesses, such as Margarito Bautista, recalled Dayer speaking of receiving a special authority claim as early as 1910–1913, only five years after Johnson’s death. LeBaron Succession Crisis: Utah vs. Mexico Dayer’s secrecy contributed to a succession crisis upon his death around 1951, mirroring the succession crisis that followed Joseph Smith’s death. Dayer had been hesitant to appoint a successor, stating he could not do so unless the Holy Ghost directed him. The two most prominent sons in the authority claim were Benjamin (Ben), the oldest, and Ross Wesley LeBaron (the second oldest.) Unfortunately, Ben suffered from mental illness after being ordained by his father, claiming to be "the one mighty and strong"8788. Dayer’s reluctance to teach his younger children about his claim was partially linked to Ben’s mental demise. The crisis culminated with the three primary contenders: Ben (oldest): Sketchy claims of receiving a blessing on Dayer's deathbed, though sources indicate Dayer was coerced and barely able to communicate due to his failing health. Joel LeBaron (younger son): Joel started the main "Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times" in Mexico in 1955, but his claim was initially vague, based on Dayer saying the "birthright is yours if I don’t give it to one of the other boys.” Ross Wesley LeBaron (second oldest): Ross, who primarily lived in Utah, asserted his claim based on a 1950 patriarchal blessing from Dayer that conferred upon him "all the keys rights and authority of the patriarchal order of priesthood" (the keys restored in Kirtland.) Ross was not formally appointed the "successor" or given the "birthright.” Instead, he received a revelation instructing him to ask his father for a commission to carry on the patriarchal work, with the principle that "the honor is in the work, not the title.” Ross subsequently founded his own group, the Church of the Firstborn, in Utah in 1955. The unique authority claim of the Ross LeBaron line, and the Church of the Firstborn today, rests on this direct, non-Woolley lineage stemming from Joseph Smith’s highest priesthood orders in Nauvoo, passed through Benjamin F. Johnson, and ultimately commissioned to Ross Wesley LeBaron to carry on the patriarchal work of the kingdom. Don’t miss our other conversations with Jacob: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jacob-vidrine Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission


    Council of 50 Connection: Secret Priesthood & LeBaron Legacy (Jacob Vidrine 2 of 4) Nov 13, 2025
    Show notes

    Let’s look into the unique authority claims of the Church of the Firstborn, also often referred to by the term Ross LeBaron-ite. They claim authority through the Council of 50 in Nauvoo! This group represents an interesting fundamentalist branch because its line of authority is distinct from the majority of other fundamentalist groups, such as the FLDS and AUB, who primarily trace their authority through the Lorin Woolley story. https://youtu.be/HeX3jEvK0FQ Don’t miss our other conversations with Jacob: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jacob-vidrine Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission Three Lines of Fundamentalist Authority Most Mormon fundamentalists—around 80% to 90%—trace their priesthood origin story back to the Lorin Woolley story. This story holds that John Taylor received an 1886 revelation telling him that plural marriage was never to be taken from the earth, leading him to set apart men (including Woolley) to keep the practice alive separate from the church911. The LeBarons, along with the Kingston group, represent authority claims that are separate from this dominant Woolley line. While the Kingstons claim a "new dispensation" or visitation by messengers to confer authority, the LeBarons trace their authority back to Benjamin F. Johnson and the Nauvoo era, which often sounds like "probably the most peculiar out of any fundamentalist claim.” Peculiar Priesthood Claim: Nauvoo Roots & Council of 50 To understand the LeBaron claim, one must examine the "higher orders of priesthood" introduced by Joseph Smith during the Nauvoo period. This higher authority was often referred to as the fullness of the priesthood or the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, which entailed being ordained a king and a priest. This authority was conferred through temple ordinances administered to select close followers, initially in the Anointed Quorum (or Holy Order) and later related to the Council of 50. Key points regarding this Nauvoo priesthood include: Authority Above the Church: Some interpretations of this higher priesthood held that it constituted an authority that "no tribunal in the church could control.” Heber C. Kimball noted that there were "more than 30 men who have got higher authority" than Sidney Rigdon, a member of the First Presidency. Independent Sealing Power: Joseph Smith's brother, William Smith, claimed that because of his ordinations as a priest and king, he held "as many sealing keys as could possibly belong to Brigham Young.” This concept suggests that individuals with this "fullness" received the sealing power and could exercise it independent of the presiding keyholder, a view that contrasts with the one-man doctrine articulated by Brigham Young. The Council of 50: Joseph Smith organized this body shortly before his death. While often viewed as a political body, historical sources suggest it was intended to be a presiding priesthood/governmental body. Benjamin F. Johnson, the link in the LeBaron lineage, was one of the men added to the Council of 50 in March 1844. From Johnson to LeBaron The LeBaron authority is rooted in the claims of Benjamin F. Johnson, who was a close friend of Joseph Smith. Johnson claimed that Joseph taught him about plural marriage, endowments, garments, and the second anointing, and authorized him "to teach it to others when I'm led to when I'm led to do so.” Johnson emphasized in his later writings that he was the "last living original member of the Council of 50.” Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. (often called Dayer) was a grandson of Benjamin F. Johnson. The LeBaron family tradition claims that in the mid-1890s, Johnson gave Dayer a patriarchal blessing appointing him to be the birthright of Joseph Smith to hold a special family position. The family claims that Johnson charged Dayer to carry on the kingdom and conferred upon him all the priesthood authority that Johnson himself had received from Joseph Smith. LeBaron Succession Crisis Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. spent most of his life in Mexico, trying to establish a colony and living plural marriage after being excommunicated from the LDS Church. He maintained a distinct priesthood claim but kept it secretive for much of his life. Upon Dayer’s death (c. 1951), the LeBaron family faced a succession crisis, similar to the tension seen in the Nauvoo period or the contemporaneous split happening in the Woolley group. Dayer had several sons who became prominent, notably: Benjamin F. LeBaron (Ben): The oldest son, initially ordained by Dayer, began to suffer from mental episodes and claimed to be "the one mighty and strong.” Dayer's hesitation about Ben's mental state made him cautious about teaching the other children about his authority claim. Ross Wesley LeBaron (Ross): The second oldest son, who spent most of his life and ministry in Utah. Ross's group is known as the Church of the Firstborn. Ross claimed that his father conferred upon him the keys and authority of the patriarchal order of priesthood in 1950, which Ross understood to be the keys restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah. Ross was given a commission to carry on the patriarchal work, with the guidance that the "honor is in the work, not the title.” Joel LeBaron: A younger son who founded the Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times in Mexico in 1955. After Dayer’s death, Joel (along with his younger brother Ervil) initially affiliated with the Woolley/AUB line before establishing his own church. Ervil LeBaron: Known for violence, murder, and having a "hit list". He split off from Joel’s church in the 1970s and called his faction the Church of the Lamb of God. The violence associated with Ervil has attached significant stigma to the name LeBaron. Because Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. died without clearly appointing a successor, the LeBarons broke into different factions, each claiming the authority Dayer had passed down. Ross’s specific brand of LeBaronism focuses on the direct transfer of temple keys and the charge to continue the patriarchal work in Utah, separate from the tragedies and violence that plagued the Mexico-based groups. What do you think of these claims? Don’t miss our other conversations with Jacob: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jacob-vidrine Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission


    Jacob Vidrine – Church of the Firstborn (1 of 4) Nov 10, 2025
    Show notes

    I'm excited to introduce Jacob Vidrine, a member of Church of the Firstborn. This is a group that is part of the LeBaron fundamentalist group. Jacob is a human encyclopedia of Mormn fundamentalism, and we're going to dive deep into how the LeBaron group cross-pollinates with other fundamentalist groups. Check it out! 0:00 Intro LeBaron Family 4:16 Lorin Woolley Authority Claims 15:20 Kingston & LeBaron Claims 19:18 High Priest Apostles 21:05 Sidney Rigdon Trial 23:53 2nd Anointing-Patriarchal Succession For more info on Mormon fundamentalism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. When discussing Mormon Fundamentalism, most people—especially members of the LDS Church—immediately think of the FLDS or AUB (Apostolic United Brethren). These groups largely trace their origin back to the authority line popularized by Lorin Woolley. However, there is a fascinating and often misunderstood branch of fundamentalism that descends from a completely different line of authority: the LeBarons. As a helpful overview of this distinctive lineage, we spoke with Jacob Vidrine of the Church of the Firstborn, sometimes colloquially referred to as Ross LeBaron-ites. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The LeBaron Divide: Ross vs. Ervil The name LeBaron often carries a dark stigma, primarily due to the terrible acts committed by Ervil LeBaron, who was a murderer and died in jail. It is important to note that Vidrine is not associated with Ervil's group6.... The LeBaron family, descending from patriarch Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. ("Dayer"), primarily split into two main groups: The Mexico LeBarons: Started by younger son Joel LeBaron in 1955 as the "Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times." Joel's church grew significantly before the violent schism with Ervil. The Ross LeBaron Line (Church of the Firstborn): Ross LeBaron, the second oldest son, separated and spent his ministry largely in the Utah area, minimizing affiliation with the strife and violence that occurred down in Mexico. Ross's movement is the one Jacob Vidrine is associated with. Authority: Woolley’s 1886 Revelation vs. The LeBaron Lineage Approximately 80% to 90% of fundamentalists trace their priesthood authority back to the Lorin Woolley story. This claim rests on the assertion that John Taylor received a revelation in 1886 confirming that plural marriage should never be removed from the earth, after which he set apart men (including Woolley) to keep the practice alive. Historically, however, the LeBarons and Kingstons maintain a distinct authority claim. The LeBaron claim is deemed by some to be "the most peculiar out of any fundamentalist claim", as it bypasses the 1886 revelation entirely and goes straight back to the Nauvoo era through Benjamin F. Johnson. Johnson Connection & Birthright Benjamin F. Johnson was a close friend of Joseph Smith and was one of the men added to the Council of 50 in March 1844. Johnson was heavily invested in the secretive Nauvoo doctrines and claimed that Joseph Smith taught him about plural marriage, the endowment, garments, and the second anointing. Crucially, Johnson claimed that Joseph Smith authorized him "to teach this to others when I'm was led to when I'm led to do" by the Holy Spirit. Alma Dayer LeBaron, the patriarch of the LeBaron family, was Benjamin F. Johnson's grandson. Family tradition holds that Johnson conferred upon Dayer a patriarchal blessing in the mid-1890s, appointing him to the "birthright of Joseph Smith" to preside over the family. Near his death (1905), Johnson allegedly charged Dayer to carry on the kingdom and conferred all the priesthood authority that Johnson had received from Joseph Smith. Alma Dayer LeBaron was secretive about this authority claim for much of his life (earning him the nickname "The Silent Prophet" by his daughter.) However, his son, Ross LeBaron, claimed that in 1950, his father conferred upon him "all the keys, rights, and authority of the patriarchal order of priesthood," which Ross understood to be the temple keys restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in Kirtland. Highest Order of Priesthood: Nauvoo Temple Authority The entire foundation of the LeBaron claim rests on the idea that Joseph Smith established a higher order of priesthood in Nauvoo that operates independently of the mainstream church structure. Joseph Smith taught that this higher authority was the "fullness of the priesthood" or the "highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood". This fullness, Joseph and Brigham Young taught, was the authority required "to be a king and a priest". This authority was conferred through select temple ordinances and included the sealing power. The Second Anointing and Sealing Power: Joseph was conferring the authority of being a king and a priest in the temple ordinances, though later the apostles changed this to be merely preparatory. For fundamentalists, if a person receives the second anointing and the sealing power, "excommunication just doesn’t matter" because it is a "higher authority". The Council of 50: The LeBaron focus on Benjamin F. Johnson ties directly to the Council of 50, which was organized by Joseph Smith shortly before his death. While some historians argue it was only a political body, critics and members like William Smith argued that the Council of 50 was ordained as kings and priests, constituting authority that "no tribunal in the church could control". The authority claim for the Church of the Firstborn is therefore rooted in this secretive, independent, and higher-level authority that they believe Joseph Smith conferred outside of the church's main organizational structure, passing from Joseph Smith to Benjamin F. Johnson, and eventually down to the LeBaron family. https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalim/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.


    JFS-Architect of Controversial LDS Orthodoxy (Bowman 4 of 4) Nov 06, 2025
    Show notes

    Joseph Fielding Smith is the architect of controversial LDS orthodoxy. He has some controversial writings about Blacks and Ezra Taft Benson. We'll also delve into his role with Lowell Bennion, a BYU professor who was fired. Was JFS responsible or was it someone else? Matthew Bowman answers. We'll also dive into his role in shaping orthodoxy in the 20th century. Don't forget to check out Matt's amazing biography on Joseph Fielding Smith! Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/_aBWPp4i1OY Don't miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matthew-bowman Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Joseph Fielding Smith: Architect of Controversial LDS Orthodoxy Joseph Fielding Smith described as a "lightning rod" due to some views considered politically incorrect today, particularly regarding race. Dr. Matt Bowman, author of "Joseph Fielding Smith, a Mormon Theologian," sheds light on Smith's impact on the church. One of the most uncomfortable aspects of Smith's legacy is his writings about Black individuals, especially concerning the priesthood. In his work, The Way to Perfection, Smith explicitly stated his subscription to the theory that people of African descent were less righteous in the pre-existence. He used language suggesting they were "not entitled to be born white." Smith was a staunch "defender of the racial restrictions" in the Church and became a major exponent of the idea, which the source traces back to Orson Hyde, that Black people possessed souls less righteous in the pre-existence. This stance led to prominent public clashes, notably with church educator Lowell Bennion at a symposium in the early 1950s. Their argument over the ban contributed to Bennion's eventual dismissal by Ernest Wilkinson, who was president of BYU and commissioner of church education. Wilkinson viewed Bennion as too liberal on race and saw Smith as an ally in this regard. While Wilkinson was the person who carried out the dismissal, the collision with Fielding Smith helped instigate the decision. Disagreement with Benson Smith also had complex relationships, even with those seen as ideologically sympathetic. Despite being viewed as a fellow conservative, Smith had significant disagreements with Ezra Taft Benson. A letter from Smith exists in which he hoped Benson's "blood will be purified" upon his return from a mission in Europe in the 1960s. Smith was skeptical of the Church becoming heavily involved in American politics, viewing Benson's fascination with politics as distasteful and inappropriate for an apostle. He considered it "unseemly" and "disreputable." Smith also saw Benson as a conspiracy theorist, distinguishing standard conservative politics (like that of Dwight Eisenhower or David McKay) from conspiracy theory. Smith hoped Benson's time away would rid him of these inclinations, allowing him to return as an apostle rather than an aspiring amateur politician. This highlights that "real deep divides" can exist even within the conservative camp. Controversial LDS Orthodoxy Perhaps Smith's most enduring theological contribution was his role in developing the idea of orthodoxy within the Latter-day Saint tradition. Orthodoxy, an older Protestant concept particularly associated with John Calvin, posits that being a faithful member requires believing certain things and that incorrect beliefs can jeopardize salvation. This was not a central idea in the early Christian Church's first century. Smith, possibly influenced by Protestant fundamentalism, began insisting in the mid-20th century that belief is actually really important and that believing "the correct ideas" were crucial because incorrect beliefs could "ruin your salvation." He defended this notion vigorously. Historically, while early Christianity saw debates over ideas like the Trinity, and Roman Catholicism emphasized sacraments and art for teaching, the strong push for average members to understand and adhere to correct doctrine emerged from the Reformed Protestant tradition. Smith's emphasis on orthodoxy gained significant traction in the church. When he became President, many members of the Quorum of the Twelve were individuals he had mentored and who shared his views, such as Harold B. Lee, Mark Peterson, and Marion G. Romney. These leaders became "movers and shakers" who believed in Smith's ideas. There was an explicit push for institutions like BYU to teach Smith's works, placing his ideas "at the center of what it meant to be a member of the church." The correlation movement and curriculum standardization were built upon Smith's ideas and writings, influencing the church through the late 20th century. Controversial LDS Orthodoxy However, the source suggests a shift began in the 1990s, moving away from this retrenchment orthodox position towards devotionalism. This newer emphasis highlights that being a good member is about living a good life, being ethical, attending church, and studying scriptures. The focus shifted from basing lessons on doctrinal works like Bruce R. McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" to emphasizing ethical behavior and community building. The discontinuation of "Mormon Doctrine" is seen as symbolic of this fading emphasis ozn strict orthodoxy. Bishops today are often more concerned with community involvement and service than with members' theological positions on topics like evolution. While the emphasis on "Smith style orthodoxy" may be waning, "Smith style defensiveness" is taking on new manifestations. Recent events at BYU and disciplinary actions are cited as examples. These issues are often framed not as theological disputes, but as centering around issues of gender, practice, and how people live. While related to moral issues Smith and McConkie addressed, the current focus is more on social organization and conduct. This reflects a renewed sense of being understood siege mentality and a need to "put up a fight" against secularization, reminiscent of Joseph Fielding Smith's defensiveness, though applied more to issues of practice than abstract belief. Do you think JFS’s influence is waning 50 years after his death, especially with regards to race ban, defensiveness, and controversial LDS orthodoxy? Don't miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matthew-bowman Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved


    Jerald & Sandra Tanner’s Apostolic Scolding (4 of 5) Oct 31, 2025
    Show notes

    Jerald and Sandra Tanner received an apostolic scolding by LeGrand Richards over the First Vision! By the early 1960s, Sandra and Jerald Tanner were deep into critical analysis of Mormon history, having transitioned from struggling Utah Mormons to committed followers of a Christ-focused faith centered on the Bible and the Book of Mormon. This new path led them to join Pauline Hancock’s “Basement Church” in Independence, Missouri, formally known as the Church of Christ (Bible & Book of Mormon). https://youtu.be/uuMY1kq_k_M 0:00 Attending Pauline's church 5:28 Pauline's Cancer/Sandra's baptism 17:02 Apostle LeGrand Richards Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved While Jerald had previously traveled to Independence and was baptized, Sandra eventually went by train to meet the group. She was baptized by Pauline in the summer of 1960, making a profession of faith in Christ and affirming her belief in the Book of Mormon. Pauline, described as a lovely woman, was very convinced of her position and served as the preacher for the group, though she never claimed the title of prophet. This period of adherence to the “Whitmerite” view—rejecting revelations past 1830 and scrapping "Aaronic & Melchizedek priesthood ideas"—was short-lived as the Tanners’ historical questions mounted. Their quest soon took a dramatic turn, involving a top church leader and a disputed document. Letter to the Brethren In June 1960, just before moving from California to Salt Lake, Sandra sent a formal letter to all the apostles announcing that she was leaving the LDS Church. Her letter detailed several critical issues, including problems with the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants changes, differences in the doctrine of God over time, and the evolving narrative of the First Vision. She noted that earlier references to the First Vision seemed to speak of an "angel" or "messenger", not the Father and the Son, suggesting the latter was a later change. Apostle LeGrand Richards responded to Sandra's letter, attempting to prove her wrong. He claimed that his great-grandfather, Joseph Lee Robinson, wrote in his diary in 1841 that Joseph Smith had told him he saw the Father and the Son. Richards reasoned that such an early reference would undermine Sandra’s claim of a shifting narrative. Confrontation over Microfilm & Apostolic Scolding The Tanners arranged a meeting with Apostle Richards at the Church Office Building in Salt Lake City to see the original document. Richards was immediately “miffed” when Sandra brought Jerald, who he perceived as a "doubting Thomas.” Instead of the original diary, Richards presented them with a typed extract containing the crucial two lines about the Father and Son. Jerald immediately pointed out that this was not the whole page and was not the actual diary. When Jerald asked to turn back the microfilm to check the date and context of the excerpt, Richards refused, accusing the Tanners of "questioning everything" he showed them. The confrontation escalated dramatically in the genealogical building, where Richards had taken them to view the film. Richards seized the film from the reader, declaring to the staff: “These people are not to see this. If they come back in, you’re not to get this out to show it to them. They’re just troublemakers. They do not have authority to see this again.” Jerald and Richards stomped out of the room arguing, while everyone in the room watched the shocking spectacle of someone arguing with an apostle. Unmasking the 1841 Diary Richards’ efforts to suppress the film failed. After months of checking, Sandra eventually returned downtown. She filled out a call card using the film number she had previously written down. The girl at the desk noted the card had been pulled from the catalog but retrieved the film anyway, assuming Sandra was authorized since she had the number. Sandra quickly turned to the relevant entry and discovered the truth: the document was not Joseph Lee Robinson’s 1841 diary, but rather his memoirs, written 40 years later in Utah in the 1880s. This discovery rendered the testimony unreliable as an early historical account, reinforcing the Tanners’ conclusion that the Church leadership was willing to suppress or misrepresent historical evidence to maintain the official narrative. The End of the Church of Christ Meanwhile, the faith community that had baptized Sandra was facing its own crisis. Pauline Hancock had suffered from breast cancer. During a trip to Salt Lake, she had shown Jerald and Sandra the open wound under her arm to ensure they would be witnesses that she truly had cancer. She was praying for healing, but prepared for either outcome, stating that if she didn't get healed, it would be due to her own "lack of faith", not a mark against God. Pauline Hancock died of her cancer in the summer of 1962. Around the same time, the Tanners concluded they could no longer accept the Book of Mormon, based on their intensive studies of its internal structure, archaeology, and chronology, deciding that "historically it just doesn't make it.” They ultimately set the book aside. When the Tanners sent their material questioning the Book of Mormon to the Church of Christ leadership (the Wilcoxes had taken over after Pauline died), they did not realize Pauline had already passed away. Following Pauline’s death, her "Basement Church" dissolved. Some families who wanted to hold onto the Book of Mormon joined other splinter groups, while others decided to "follow Christ and stick with the Bible.” Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved


    Missing 1832 First Vision Account (Sandra Tanner 3 of 6) Oct 27, 2025
    Show notes

    Sandra Tanner discusses one of the most intriguing episodes in Mormon history: her early inquiry into the missing 1832 First Vision account. (She didn't know it was missing at the time. The account was allegedly ripped out of the Joseph Smith journal by Church Historian Joseph Fielding Smith. This pursuit led Sandra directly into correspondence with Joseph Fielding Smith, then Church Historian, concerning what she believed was the original, definitive record of Joseph Smith’s earliest spiritual experience. https://youtu.be/1pDKtA4RfmE Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved 0:00 Tanner's Secret Polygamy 4:57 Sandra's Teen LDS Experiences 19:06 Sandra's Role in Missing First Vision Account? The Path to Critical Inquiry Sandra Tanner’s journey into questioning Mormon orthodoxy was significantly shaped by her mother, who was already deep into researching early Mormonism in the late 1950s. Sandra’s mother insisted on finding chapter and verse for religious claims, refusing to simply take the word of "the brethren" or rely solely on church manuals, often disrupting Sunday school classes with her inquisitive mind. Sandra’s first met Jerald Tanner in the 1950s. He introduced her to David Whitmer's thinking and the ideas of Pauline Hancock’s group, the Church of Christ-Bible & Book of Mormon). This set the stage for intense study. A major focal point of this research was the nature of God and how the changing views of God affected the narrative of the First Vision. Sandra noted that the Book of Mormon, in its earliest form, presented a view of God that did not align with the current Mormon understanding of a separate Father and Son. Conflicting First Vision Narratives As Sandra, Jerald, and her mother poured over available documents, they focused on inconsistencies surrounding the First Vision: Fawn Brodie’s Observation: The first edition of No Man Knows My History had raised the issue that the earliest references to an experience before the 1823 angel Moroni visitation often seemed to refer only to an angel or messenger, not the Father and Son. The Historical Record Change: Sandra’s aunt acquired a copy of Andrew Jensen’s Historical Record (from the 1880s), which contained an account where Joseph went into the woods to pray and a "messenger, an angel" appeared to him. However, her aunt’s copy was a later reprint (circa 1890 or 1891) that changed the text to say "the Christ appears to him," raising questions about when the shift occurred and why the Father was excluded in that version. Sandra and her associates reasoned that if the First Vision story was constantly evolving, they needed to see the genesis of the account. The Letter & Missing 1832 First Vision Account In the early 1960s (circa 1961), Sandra, Jerald, and her mother formulated a letter outlining these historical questions to be sent to then-Church Historian, Joseph Fielding Smith. Sandra simply assumed that an initial written account must exist and requested a photocopy of the "original Joseph Smith handwritten account of the First Vision". Little did Sandra know that some people, like her friend Lamar Peterson, did know about a "strange account" (the 1832 version) that had been shown to him by Levi Edgar Young, who was sworn to secrecy by Joseph Fielding Smith. Sandra’s request, though based on assumption, might have caused immediate alarm in the Church Historian's Office. Sandra speculates that Joseph Fielding Smith had previously cut the 1832 account out of the ledger book because he realized it was problematic. When Smith received Sandra’s letter, he may have assumed she possessed insider knowledge. To get ahead of any arguments about hiding evidence, Smith subsequently taped the pages back into the ledger book. "I think he cut it out back in the time of Levi Edgar Young. I mean, this is my assumption that at that time he cut it out because he realized it was problematic and he didn't want anyone else coming across this." Joseph Fielding Smith’s Rebuke Joseph Fielding Smith did not send Sandra the document she requested. Instead, he wrote back to her bishop (Bishop Warren Kennedy). When the bishop read the response to Sandra, the letter was highly critical, asserting that if the "young woman would stop listening to the enemies of the church and seek for a testimony instead, she wouldn't have these kind of questions". Smith went on to call Sandra out for her "apostate spirit". Crucially, Smith ended the letter with a curious line: " if I showed her such a thing would that even convince her". Sandra realized later that this specific wording was used because Smith knew that the 1832 account—which primarily details Christ appearing to Joseph (not the Father and Son)—would not convince her to return to the mainstream narrative but would actually reinforce her argument about the shifting view of God. The controversy over the 1832 account, however, did eventually enter official channels. Joseph Fielding Smith utilized Paul Cheesman's BYU thesis in 1965 as the official mode for publication, allowing the church to place the account on the record and refute arguments that they were hiding history. What do you think of Sandra’s recounting? Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved


    Shocking Truth: Murderers in Celestial Kingdom? Challenging Sandra Tanner’s Faith (2/6) Oct 25, 2025
    Show notes

    Will there be murderers in Celestial Kingdom? An Institute Teacher's answer challenged Sandra Tanner's faith back in the 1950s. We'll talk about this unusual case and how it contributed to Sandra joining Pauline Hancock's Basement Church (known as Church of Christ) in Independence Missouri. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/4c6tu0SYs6 Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved From Brigham Young Defender to Critic: Influences That Sparked Tanners' Journey The history of early Mormonism and its subsequent splinter groups is complex, but few journeys into critical thinking are as personal and profound as that of Sandra Tanner. Raised defending the faith, her path to becoming a leading critic of Mormonism was catalyzed by several unexpected influences, including the work of a pioneering female Restoration leader and the startling discovery of historical documents. The Vision of Pauline Hancock Sandra Tanner's husband, Jerald Tanner, was deeply influenced by an obscure Restoration group led by Pauline Hancock. Pauline was a head of her group, called the Church of Christ (Bible Book of Mormon), serving as its minister and preacher. Though she never claimed to be a prophet, she was considered a "deliverer of the message". Crucially, Pauline did claim to have a vision of Christ before the group started meeting as a church. This vision occurred during a transition when she was trying to sort out what she believed, focusing on the "original kernel of Mormonism". She told Christ she couldn't fulfill the calling to tell the world what she had learned because she was a woman, but Christ responded, "I was a man, and they didn't listen to me. So, it doesn't matter that you're a woman. You are called to go out and tell what you've learned". Pauline’s group focused on studying the Book of Mormon outside of various splinter groups. Their theology centered on the "oneness idea of God," a modalistic model (though they would not have used the term "modalism"). They aimed for a rejuvenation of the David Whitmer flavor of Mormonism, seeking to go "back to original Mormonism" using just the Bible and Book of Mormon. Jerald Tanner’s Cottage Meetings Jerald Tanner became converted to Pauline’s message after two visits to Missouri. At age 20 (around 1957 or 1958), Jerald returned to Salt Lake and began holding little cottage meetings at his parents’ house. He would play reel-to-reel tapes of Pauline’s different sermons or teachings. The purpose of these meetings was to discuss early Mormonism and explain where the Church "went off the track". Sandra’s grandmother, a relative by marriage to the Brigham Young family, received an invitation to one of these meetings via a postcard. Sandra, visiting from Southern California during spring break, drove her grandmother to the meeting. Grandmother claimed it was "sort of like a Mormon fireside". Jerald, whom she found "nice looking" and "cute," impressed her with his studies on Mormonism’s problems and the group's focus on returning to the Book of Mormon. From Defense to Doubt Sandra’s journey of doubt had already been seeded by others. First, her mother and aunt began studying Mormon history in the 1950s after reading Fawn Brodie's book, No Man Knows My History. They were pouring over "apostate literature" and photocopies. Sandra, then in high school, was busy defending the faith, while her mother and aunt were "going into apostasy". Sandra noted that her mother became known as being "too inquisitive" in Sunday school classes, often disrupting the class with questions. Sandra’s mother and aunt found James Wardle's barbershop, possibly through Sam Weller's bookstore (which stocked anti-Mormon and polygamy literature). James Wardle was the link that put Sandra's mother in contact with Pauline Hancock's group. Second, Sandra recounts her first challenge in Mormonism occurring in 8th grade when a Christian girl questioned her about what Mormons believed about God. Sandra proudly quoted the popular saying from the 1950s: " as man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." The girl called this "blasphemy" and walked away, leaving Sandra stunned. Will there be Murderers in Celestial Kingdom? Third, while attending the Institute of Religion in Southern California in the late 1950s, Sandra was troubled by a conversation with her Institute teacher about an acquaintence convicted of murder. The teacher said that the person could never be baptized, receive the temple ordinances (endowments/sealings,) or reach the celestial kingdom. This answer shocked Sandra, who questioned how this system fit the "gospel of Jesus" if the "good news" meant, "Unfortunately, you don’t qualify". (It is noted that current 2025 church policy allows a person convicted of murder to be baptized and go to the temple after completing their sentence, with First Presidency approval, but the practical difficulties for a prisoner remained. If he was on death row, he would never qualify.) It is unknown what official Church policy was in 1958. The Deal Breaker: Brigham Young’s Sermons After meeting Jerald, their courtship centered on studying Mormon history. Sandra, who was raised to practically worship Brigham Young, told Jerald she was a "great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young". Jerald challenged her to read his sermons. Jerald brought copies of sermons addressing Adam-God theology, polygamy, and the Civil War. But the ultimate "real deal breaker" for Sandra was reading the blood atonement sermons. Specifically, she was horrified by the passage where Brigham Young discusses finding his brother in bed with his wife: "I would immediately put a javelin through them both and this would save them... I would be justified and... this is loving your neighbor as yourself." This teaching, which claimed there were "certain sins you could commit [that] the blood of Christ won’t cover," was entirely opposite to the benign image she had of Brigham Young. Sandra immediately rejected Brigham Young out of hand: "God did not tell Brigham Young to teach this sermon. This cannot be from God... That guy’s toast." After that moment, Sandra was ready to read anything Jerald had. She purchased a copy of the 1833 Book of Commandments and compared it against the current Doctrine and Covenants, confirming David Whitmer’s claim that Joseph Smith had changed revelations. Despite her own mother’s severe worries that Sandra was being "sucked in" to a "fanatic cult group" in Missouri (even though her mother acknowledged church problems, she would not leave the role of a Mormon), Sandra and Jerald had a whirlwind romance and were married by a Protestant minister. Their partnership in critiquing Mormon history had begun. Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved


    Pioneers of Criticism: Sandra Tanner, Pauline Hancock, & Quest for the Original Church of Christ (1 of 5) Oct 22, 2025
    Show notes

    Before Stassi Cramm became the first woman to lead the Community of Christ, Pauline Hancock led the Church of Christ. Sandra Tanner was baptized in about 1960 into Pauline Hancock's Church of Christ. We'll discuss Pauline's church, Sandra's conversion and de-conversion, and more in this amazing conversation. Check it out! https://youtu.be/3V-7stAyZ9w Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved 0:00 Updating Sandra Tanner 5:15 (In)Famous Sandra 9:39 Is Sandra Tanner Anti-Mormon? 12:05 Pauline Hancock's Origins 24:48 How Jerald Joined Pauline 32:43 Book of Mormon Has Trinitarian Roots 34:22 Jerald Visits Pauline Pioneers of Criticism: Sandra Tanner, Pauline Hancock, & Quest for the Original Church of Christ Sandra Tanner is well-known today as a staunch critic and historian of Mormonism, chronicled recently in the biography Lighthouse: Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Despised and Beloved Mormon Critics of Mormonism. While Sandra is now enjoying life in a condominium in Sandy, Utah, having retired from the stresses of her old neighborhood in Salt Lake City, her journey as a critic began in the late 1950s alongside her husband, Jerald Tanner56. This period of questioning led the newlywed Tanners to explore various splinter groups, resulting in Sandra becoming a temporary convert to a unique movement led by one of the earliest known female leaders in the Restoration: Pauline Hancock's Church of Christ. Critic, Not Anti-Mormon Before diving into her early faith experience, Sandra is careful to distinguish her identity. She notes that she is comfortable being labeled a "Mormon critic," but strongly rejects the term "anti-Mormon.” This is because the "anti-Mormon" label often implies an animosity toward the people, which she does not feel. She condemns any violence against Mormon people. She sees herself as a critic of Mormonism—its doctrines and history—not its followers. Jerald Tanner's Search for the "Start" The Tanners' joint investigation into Mormonism began around 1959. Jerald's personal crisis was spurred around age 18 when his bishop suggested he go on a mission. Jerald began reading critical works, notably Fawn Brodie's book (written in 1945), which was the standard critical source at the time. His investigation led him to seek out local splinter groups, first visiting the Reorganized Church in Salt Lake City. There, he met a barber named James Wardle, who operated a shop that housed one of the largest collections of historic books on early Mormonism. Wardle provided Jerald with a key text that shaped his direction: David Whitmer's pamphlet, An Address to All Believers in Christ (1887). Whitmer's position was that the Book of Mormon was the main thing and that Joseph Smith "got a big head, invented all this other stuff.” This idea became Jerald's litmus test: if there was any truth to Mormonism, it had to be at the start, centered on the Book of Mormon. Jerald even took a trip to Independence, Missouri, to verify Whitmer's claims that the revelations had been changed, specifically noting discrepancies between the current version of the Doctrine and Covenants and the early Book of Commandments. Pauline Hancock and the "Luke-ite" Church of Christ James Wardle also informed Jerald about Pauline Hancock's small Church of Christ group, noting that they aligned more closely with David Whitmer's views than other splinter groups. Pauline Hancock was raised in the Reorganized (RLDS) Church, where her father had served as a pastor in Salt Lake City. She became disillusioned with both the RLDS and the Temple Lot Church. She, her husband, and others who went through similar struggles were deeply impacted by Whitmer's pamphlet. This group, sometimes referred to as "the Luke-ites" because they first met in the home of a Mr. Luke, established their own theological foundation: Book of Mormon Fundamentalism: They adopted the Book of Mormon and the Bible as their core scriptures. Rejection of Later Revelation: Crucially, they did not accept revelations past 1830. They threw out the Doctrine and Covenants, the Book of Commandments, and the associated priesthood ideas, believing Joseph Smith was only called to bring forth the Book of Mormon, not to set up a church. Worship Space: They built a small "basement church" at the corner of Crysler and Lyndon in Independence, Missouri. The interior reportedly featured used movie theater chairs. Jerald visited Pauline's small group in Independence multiple times in the mid-1950s, staying for weeks at a time. He was deeply influenced by Pauline's message that "all you really need is Jesus" and that they should scrap the institutional "stuff.” Jerald found a new personal relationship with Christ through reading the Bible and the Book of Mormon, moving away from institutional religion. While Pauline's church eventually folded, she was highly influential. The sources note that while she never claimed the title of prophet for her movement, she did claim to have had a vision of Christ before the group formally started meeting as a church. Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved


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