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    Christianity

    Gospel Tangents Podcast

    A 360-degree view of Mormonism. We interview the best Mormon scholars, scientists, and clergy from all restoration branches, including LDS, Community of Christ, Strangites, Bickertonites, Temple Lot, Remnant, etc.

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    Copyright: © 2019 Gospel Tangents - All Rights Reserved

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    Apostle & 70 Bust LDS Myths (Hamer & MacKay) Sep 04, 2025
    Show notes

    This is a rebroadcast of my 2018 interview with John Hamer & Lachlan MacKay from the Community of Christ. They'll bust some LDS myths about the Kirtland Temple, Word of Wisdom, Alice Cooper, and more! Check it out! https://youtu.be/NjnkS1Y-tls Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission A Journey Through Kirtland and Beyond The early history of the Latter-day Saint movement is far richer and more complex than many realize, marked by vibrant architectural innovations, evolving theological understandings, and a dramatic succession crisis that led to the formation of numerous distinct traditions. Recent discussions with Community of Christ leaders, Apostle Lachlan MacKay and Seventy John Hamer, offer fascinating insights into this intricate past, shedding light on topics ranging from the Kirtland Temple's original appearance to the diverse interpretations of core doctrines. John is the author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism. Bust LDS Myths on Kirtland Temple: Kaleidoscope of Early Worship The Kirtland Temple, a pivotal edifice in early Latter-day Saint history, holds a storied past, not least because of its surprising original aesthetics and a tumultuous ownership saga. When first constructed, the building did not present the pristine white façade it does today. Rather, it was designed to emulate a grand, cut-stone look, achieved through an ingenious building technique introduced by Artemus Millet. The walls, approximately two feet thick and 45 feet high, were constructed from rubble, primarily sandstone, held together with mortar. To create the desired elegant appearance, a hard plaster or stucco finish was immediately applied to the exterior. This stucco was mixed with crushed old crockery and glass, making the surface sparkle brilliantly when struck by sunlight. Mortar joints were then painted onto the walls, giving the illusion of large, meticulously cut stone blocks from a distance. Far from white, the temple was described as "blue" in the 1830s, likely a slate gray hue. Even the wooden shingles were dipped in red lead paint for preservation, and the front doors were olive green, presenting a far more colorful structure than we envision today. This vibrant exterior, sadly, was toned down over the years due to fading, extensive patching of cracks, rust streaks from iron in the sandstone, and eventually, the removal and replacement of stucco in the 1950s, leading to its brilliant white appearance only since the 1960s. The temple's initial function also differed significantly from modern Latter-day Saint temples. In Kirtland, it served as a public house for worship with a strong emphasis on spiritual and intellectual empowerment. Two-thirds of the temple was dedicated to classroom space, where people would attend worship on Sundays and school six days a week. It even housed the Kirtland High School, accommodating students from six years old through adulthood, making it the center of community life. This public access contrasted with the Nauvoo temple, where a tithe-payer's receipt was required for the baptismal font, a precursor to the modern temple recommend concept. The Kirtland Temple's ownership history is equally complex, described as "a mess". Joseph Smith sometimes owned it personally and at other times on behalf of the Church. Amid financial difficulties, it was signed over to William Marks to protect it from creditors. After Joseph Smith’s death, there were attempts by various groups, including Brigham Young's followers, to sell or claim the temple. A particularly violent incident in 1838 saw dissenters storm the temple with guns and knives, aiming to take possession, only to be ejected by police amidst a chaotic scene involving a toppled stovepipe and soot. The Community of Christ's "Kirtland temple suit" in the 1880s was primarily about establishing identity as Joseph Smith Jr.'s true church, rather than merely securing ownership, despite an initial favorable ruling being dismissed on procedural grounds. Evolving Temple Worship and Theological Insights The sources highlight significant differences in temple worship and theology between the Kirtland era and later developments in Nauvoo and beyond. Notably, the Kirtland Temple had no baptismal font, and endowment ceremonies as understood later were not taking place there. The concept of baptism for the dead seems to have its origins in Nauvoo, though rooted in Joseph Smith's earlier concern for his unbaptized brother, Alvin. The vision of Alvin in the celestial kingdom in 1836 (LDS D&C 137) brought relief, but the idea of baptism by proxy didn't fully materialize until Nauvoo, with early baptisms even occurring in the Mississippi River before the temple font was ready. Other traditions, like James Strang's, also adopted this practice. The Community of Christ initially found the idea appealing but, lacking a temple to practice it, it eventually ceased to be part of their tradition. The vision of Elijah on April 3, 1836, in the Kirtland Temple, is interpreted differently by various Latter-day Saint traditions. For the Community of Christ, a key insight is that this vision of the Risen Lord occurred on Easter Sunday, emphasizing the Christ-centered nature of the event. Modern LDS tradition often anachronistically reads the vision as the moment the sealing power for plural marriage was restored. However, historical context suggests the early Saints, a "millennial sect," were focused on end-times theology and Elijah's return to "turn the hearts of the children to the fathers" in preparation for the literal Second Coming, not plural marriage. The vision of Alvin in D&C 137 is also clarified as being about preaching in the spirit prison, not baptism for the dead, a later reinterpretation. Endowment ceremonies in Kirtland also evolved. Initially, "endowment with power from on high" meant gathering to be empowered by the Holy Spirit for missionary outreach. Over time, ordinances were added, including ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood, feet washing, and a ritual cleansing with cinnamon whiskey and perfumed water. This purification ritual was performed just prior to entering the temple, followed by anointing with oil and sealing blessings on the third floor, a process that took weeks and was considered essential for missionaries going overseas. Succession and Schisms: The Fragmented Heritage Following Joseph Smith's assassination in 1844, a profound succession crisis emerged, creating a vacuum that led to numerous leadership claims and the formation of diverse Latter-day Saint traditions. The death of Hyrum Smith alongside Joseph, who held an "anomalous role" as assistant president, left the question of succession open. Sidney Rigdon, as the last surviving member of the First Presidency, held a strong canonical claim to leadership, supported by the church's incorporation documents which stipulated succession through the First Presidency. However, he was outmaneuvered by Brigham Young, who, as president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, established the precedent of the senior apostle succeeding, a practice not found in early canon law but adopted to prevent Rigdon's leadership. Rigdon subsequently attempted to reorganize the church in Pittsburgh, but his movement eventually atomized, leading to the formation of smaller groups like the Bickertonites. Among the most influential rivals to Brigham Young was James Strang, a recent convert who rapidly gained a following. Strang claimed angelic ordination simultaneous with Joseph's death and presented a contested letter purportedly appointing him as Joseph's successor. He further bolstered his claims with new prophetic signs, including the translation of the "Voree plates," physical artifacts seen by thousands, which foretold a refuge in Voree, Wisconsin, and the emergence of a great successor. Strang gathered followers, first in Voree and then on Beaver Island in Lake Michigan, where they built a thriving colony. His movement controversially adopted polygamy, which Strang claimed to discover through translating a separate set of "brass plates". His opposition to selling whiskey to Native Americans also caused friction with neighbors. Strang was eventually martyred in 1856, and his followers were brutally dispersed, suffering severe persecution. Other notable groups included: Lyman Wight's followers (Wightites): Wight, a senior member of the Council of Fifty, believed he was called to relocate to Texas and formed a successful colony there. Most Wightites eventually joined the Reorganization. Alpheus Cutler's followers (Cutlerites): Cutler, a mason of the Nauvoo Temple and a leader of the Council of Fifty, also believed Joseph Smith III would be the successor. His small group is known for maintaining a unique, longer, and secret Nauvoo-era endowment ceremony, making them a subject of great historical interest despite their dwindling numbers. Hedrickites: This group, also known as the Church of Christ, focused on redeeming Zion in Jackson County, Missouri, acquiring portions of the original Temple Lot. They reject the Doctrine and Covenants, citing changes from the original Book of Commandments. The Community of Christ (historically RLDS Church) emerged from various scattered branches in the Midwest that were dissatisfied with the leadership of Brigham Young and James Strang. These branches, praying for guidance, coalesced around the idea of lineal succession, eventually inviting Joseph Smith III to become their prophet-president in 1860. This "Josephite tradition" drew many dissenters from other groups, including those who had gone west to Utah but were disillusioned. Bust LDS Myths on Word of Wisdom The Word of Wisdom, a key revelation in Mormonism, is another area where historical context significantly alters modern understandin


    Historic Vote! Stassi Cramm 1st Female Prophet-Pres of CoC! Sep 01, 2025
    Show notes

    History was made Sunday night in Independence, Missouri. The Community of Christ gathered for the election and ordination of the 1st female prophet president in Community of Christ. It was a a momentous occasion. The focus of the event was Stassi Cramm, who was anticipated to take on this significant leadership role, following Steven Veazey’s retirement. She became the 1st female prophet-president of Community of Christ, and just the 2nd female leader of a Restoration Church since Pauline Hancock. https://youtu.be/y63w2GfFc8Y Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission A New Era Begins Independence, MO – June 1st, 2025 marked a truly historic day for the Community of Christ, as Stassi Cramm was officially ordained as the new prophet-president. This momentous event, which occurred during the Community of Christ World Conference in Independence, not only signifies a new chapter for the church but also positions Cramm as the first female prophet-president of the Community of Christ. She is also recognized as one of the few female leaders in the broader Restoration movement, following Pauline Hancock. The atmosphere leading up to the ordination was charged with anticipation and excitement. The World Conference began with procedural matters, including a review of rules and the dissolution of the First Presidency. On May 31st, 2025, Stassi Cramm formally accepted her nomination for the role. Road to the Vote Throughout May 31st, caucus meetings were held to discuss the upcoming vote25. Reports from these meetings indicated strong support for Stassi Cramm. The evangelist quorum showed "full support," and in the high priest quorum, "nobody opposed," although some individuals did abstain from voting. While some anticipated that the vote might not be entirely unanimous, the overall sentiment suggested a "slam dunk.” The vote itself was scheduled for 2:00 PM Central time on June 1st, 2025. 1st Female Prophet The ordination service itself was described as "amazing" and "spirit-filled.” Attendees enthusiastically sang "The Spirit of God Like a Fire is Burning.” There was a palpable sense of "hope" and inspiration among the congregants. The anthem "We'll Rise and we’ll Shout!" was notably sung with great passion, with the organist deeply engaged. Deb Luce remarked on the excitement, expressing that Stassi Cramm had "sparked that [hope] a little bit more" and emphasized the importance of holding onto existing doctrines. For those who might harbor reservations about female ordination, the message was clear: "harden not your hearts" and "allow the spirit to speak.” It was also highlighted that "the voice of God is not a spirit of contention" and that "God won't divide us.” A Legacy of Firsts Stassi Cramm's ordination as prophet-president on June 1st, 2025, is a significant milestone, making her the first woman to hold this top leadership position in the Community of Christ. This historic occasion was eagerly awaited, with many anticipating it would be a "history making day.” As one witness to the event noted, it was "awesome" to be there for this moment. Stassi went on to reorganize the Council of 12 Apostles. With some retiring and reassigning others, 6 new apostles were called; Mareva Tchong was reassigned from President of the Apostles to become the new Presiding Evangelist (what LDS would call the Presiding Patriarch.) It was awesome to attend World Conference and witness the 1st female prophet be ordained in the Community of Christ. I'm hoping to get Stassi Cramm on an interview in September. I hope it happens! Check out the video to witness the events of this historic event! What are your thoughts on the news? Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission


    How John Hamer Changed RLDS Succession History (5 of 6) Aug 29, 2025
    Show notes

    Changes in RLDS Succession Last Spring, John Hamer gave a monumental address about RLDS succession at the JWHA Meetings that literally changed RLDS History. Pres-prophet Steven Veazey had announced his pending retirement in 2 years and said he would choose a successor. John argued in his address that if Veazey did so, it would make his presidency illegitimate as well as whoever he picked. So, the process was changed as a result of his address. He'll give more details. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/2rQnCWIYxqE John is the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism. Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved From Monarchical Tendencies to a "Prophetic People" Historically, leadership in the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS), now Community of Christ, was heavily influenced by the Joseph Smith lineage. Joseph Smith III's succession, recognized by the General Conference (World Conference), established two pillars of legitimacy: appointment by the predecessor and the "royal line" of Joseph Smith, which was seen as holy according to the Book of Mormon. William Smith, brother of Joseph Smith, actively promoted the idea of a Smith "royal seed," drawing parallels to James, the brother of Jesus, leading the early Christian church. However, this tradition soon saw shifts. Joseph III's son, Frederick M. Smith, introduced the concept of "supreme directional control," concentrating power in the First Presidency, which he led. This led to significant internal conflicts, including the resignation of the entire Presiding Bishopric and the departure of prominent figures like R.C. Evans, who felt sidelined despite his own aspirations for leadership. The Smith lineage continued through Joseph III's sons until Wallace B. Smith, a grandson, took the helm. He was a "progressive leader" who, in 1984, initiated the end of priesthood discrimination based on gender (D&C 156), a move that led to schism within the church as "restorationist" groups broke away. Importantly, Wallace B. Smith broke from the Smith lineage tradition by appointing a non-Smith, W. Grant McMurray, as his successor. Grant McMurray's tenure marked another pivotal shift. In D&C 162, he articulated a vision of the church as a "prophetic people, not just a people with a prophet," introducing a new pillar of legitimacy that emphasized discernment and input from the wider church body. This concept challenged the previous monarchical tendencies and opened the door for more democratic forms of leadership. Crisis and Controversy: The Kirtland Temple Sale and Succession Plans Grant McMurray's abrupt resignation in 2004, without appointing a successor, created a succession crisis, effectively breaking the chain of appointment. In response, a special World Conference was called, and the First Presidency assigned the Council of Twelve Apostles to choose the next prophet, who turned out to be Steve Veazey. Steve Veazey's 20-year presidency, however, was marked by significant financial struggles for the church, leading to an "unmitigated decline". This culminated in the controversial sale of the historic Kirtland Temple for less than $200 million. Critics, including historian John Hamer, argued that the sale was conducted "in secret" and for "a pittance," insufficient for the church's long-term financial sustainability. The World Conference had previously required a revelation to sell the Kirtland Temple, highlighting the lack of transparency in the recent transaction. Adding to the controversy, Steve Veazey announced a plan to personally select his successor. John Hamer publicly argued that this move would "retroactively completely delegitimize" Veazey's tenure and render his chosen successor illegitimate, as it contradicted the principle of a "prophetic people" and the broken chain of appointment. Stassi Cramm: A New Path Forward with Potential for Term Limits Fortunately, during an unexplained medical leave by Steve Veazey, his succession plan was suspended. The Council of Twelve once again stepped in to choose the next prophet, leading to the ordination of Stacy Cramm. This process, though not a direct popular vote, allowed her to emerge with greater legitimacy, aligning with the principle of a "prophetic people" rather than a sole appointment by a predecessor. Hamer sees her leadership as an opportunity for the church to finally establish a robust constitutional system of responsible governance. A the Spring meeting of JWHA, John made a proposal of term limits for the prophet. A six-year term with the possibility of a second term is being suggested as a way to ensure accountability and responsiveness, moving away from indefinite tenure. This aligns with the long-standing practice within Community of Christ congregations, where pastors are chosen by their local congregations rather than being appointed from headquarters. Pastors can be removed by the congregation as well. At the most recent World Conference, a resolution was approved to establish a constitutional/bylaw committee. This committee will explore these issues, with the hope of developing a system that allows for greater input from the church's members while protecting minority rights from potential "tyranny of the majority". President Cramm, possessing "supreme directional control," has the authority to implement such changes and has expressed an openness to addressing the church's challenges. Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved


    RLDS-Temple Lot Competition (John Hamer 4 of 6) Aug 27, 2025
    Show notes

    John Hamer makes the surprising argument that the Auditorium is, in fact, a Community of Christ temple on the Temple Lot! This is a claim even many RLDS members have never heard. Why does he say this? It ties back to the unfinished temple project of the Church of Christ (Temple Lot), also known as the Hedrickites. For a time, the two churches were essentially constructing rival temples side by side on the historic temple lot. Join us as we dive into this fascinating story! https://youtu.be/eWnSy5Qeh9k John is the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism. Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved The concept and construction of temples have been a central, yet often contentious, aspect of the Restoration movement. While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) is well-known for its extensive temple building, other branches of the Restoration tradition have also grappled with their own unique visions and challenges regarding sacred spaces. Historian John Hamer sheds light on the fascinating, and sometimes fraught, history of temple competition and diverse practices among groups like the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS), the Hedrickites, Strangites, and Cutlerites. The Community of Christ's Dual Temple Vision For the Community of Christ, the idea of a "temple" has taken on multiple forms, leading to what some might see as competing sacred spaces. The Auditorium as a Temple: The Community of Christ Auditorium, located on the "greater Temple Lot" in Independence, Missouri, was envisioned by Fred M. Smith as a temple, though he used the modern term "auditorium". Construction began in 1929 during the Great Depression, incurring significant debt. This massive structure, designed for conferences, worship, training, learning, and church headquarters offices, aligned with Joseph Smith III's earlier vision for an Independence temple. Hamer explicitly states that the Auditorium is the temple for the reorganization, a fact often overlooked even within the Community of Christ itself. The Independence Temple: Despite the Auditorium's existence, Fred M. Smith's brother, W. Wallace Smith, who succeeded him as prophet, received revelations about the need to build a temple. This led to the construction of the architecturally magnificent "Spiral Temple," also known as the Community of Christ Temple. Its design incorporates the Fibonacci sequence, symbolizing divine ratios and connecting to ancient Greek civilization, and was a significant draw for Hamer to join the Community of Christ. Hamer suggests that the lack of institutional memory regarding the Auditorium's original purpose might have contributed to the decision to build a second temple. Hedrickites and the Battle for the Temple Lot The Church of Christ (Temple Lot), also know as the Hedrickites the earliest Restoration branch to return to Jackson County, Missouri. They hold a key portion of "the Temple Lot". This property was part of a much larger parcel Edward Partridge originally bought for a total of 24 temples. RLDS Aggression and Backfire: The RLDS Church made aggressive attempts to acquire this land through lawsuits and a "sneaky" plan for "free association". The idea was to absorb the tiny Temple Lot Church, which at the time had minimal active leadership. Otto Fetting/Competing Structures: This plan dramatically backfired when a thousand RLDS members, including Otto Fetting, transferred their membership to the Temple Lot Church. Otto Fetting then began receiving revelations to build a temple, which, strikingly, was designed as an Auditorium-like structure with assembly halls and offices, echoing the former RLDS members' understanding of temples. This created a direct architectural and spiritual competition with the Community of Christ's Auditorium. The Hedrickites believe they found cornerstones for a temple dedicated in the 1830s, though the authenticity of these stones remains unconfirmed by historians. Otto Fetting was later excommunicated by the Temple Lot Church, and the Hedrickite tradition has since diversified into "dozens" of churches, ranging from Anglo-Aryan/neo-Nazi groups to liberal-progressive ones that have even voted themselves out of existence. Unique Temple Practices Among Smaller Restoration Groups Beyond the Community of Christ and Hedrickites, other smaller Restoration movement churches have distinct approaches to temple work and sacred ordinances. The Cutlerites: This group stands out as the only non-Brighamite church to practice an endowment and perform sealings. Despite their deeply sacred practices, they currently have a very small, aging membership. The Strangites: While they do not have a physical temple, the Strangites practiced sealings as late as the 1950s. They believe that polygamy and baptisms for the dead are godly principles but do not practice them today, awaiting an angelic ordination of a new prophet, as apostles cannot ordain a prophet (the lesser cannot ordain the greater.) Notably, women in the Strangite Church are ordained to the priesthood office of Teacher and can lead meetings, often diligently studying historical texts to find operative rules for the church. The diverse histories of these Restoration movement branches illustrate not only the enduring significance of temples and sacred ordinances but also the varied paths different groups have taken to define and enact their understanding of divine directives and community identity. Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved


    How Sidney Rigdon Still Affects LDS Succession (John Hamer 3 of 6) Aug 23, 2025
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    The struggle for leadership of the LDS Church between Sidney Rigdon and Brigham Young still echoes today. One lasting outcome is the practice of dissolving the First Presidency at the prophet’s death—a move meant to underscore that Rigdon was never recognized as Joseph Smith’s rightful successor. Historian John Hamer of the Community of Christ joins us to examine Rigdon’s claims, even arguing that Sidney may have had the strongest case for leadership. We’ll also explore the church Rigdon established, now the third-largest “Mormon” denomination. Don’t miss this fascinating discussion! https://youtu.be/jWzGoa9LXXQ Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved We delve deep into the complexities of LDS (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and RLDS (Community of Christ) succession after the death of Joseph Smith in 1844, and how this crisis shaped the leadership structures and beliefs of both churches. LDS Succession after Joseph Smith's Death (1844) Lack of a Defined System: There was no pre-existing system for succession written in the Doctrine and Covenants. The process that unfolded was largely shaped by the personalities and power dynamics of the time. Sidney Rigdon's Claim: Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith's counselor in the First Presidency, claimed the role of "guardian" of the church. This was akin to a regent in a monarchy, intended to lead until Joseph Smith III, who was then a child, could assume leadership. Brigham Young's Maneuver: Brigham Young argued that following the martyrdom, a prophet in the flesh was no longer needed, and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles should act as the First Presidency. This led to the group initially being called "Twelve-ites" by other branches. Timeframe to Leadership: It took three years for Brigham Young to transition from the president of the Quorum of the Twelve to the official prophet of the church. During this period, he acted as "acting president". Elimination of Rivals and Decentralization of Power: ◦ William Marks and the Standing High Council: William Marks, president of the Standing High Council, was seen as a rival to Brigham Young. The Standing High Council, which had previously held equal or even superior authority to the traveling Quorum of the Twelve, particularly in organized stakes, was effectively demoted into stake high councils. This move eliminated an institutional rival and concentrated power. ◦ Presiding Bishopric: Similarly, the powerful role of the Presiding Bishop, who controlled temporalities and could act as a leadership rival, was demoted by Brigham Young, who created numerous bishops, reducing the role to a congregational position. Retroactive Legitimacy: The LDS Church's practice of dissolving the First Presidency upon the prophet's death and the automatic succession of the senior-most apostle were established to retroactively delegitimize Sidney Rigdon's claim and ensure the legitimacy of subsequent LDS presidents. This automatic succession became rapid over time, especially after Joseph F. Smith, as leaders realized the difficulty of running the church without a quick transition. Non-Apostolic First Presidency: In the early church, the First Presidency (including Hyrum Smith and Sidney Rigdon) was distinct from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Sidney Rigdon's Church and the Bickertonites Rigdon's Failed Efforts: After excommunicating each other, Sidney Rigdon started his own church in Pittsburgh, which eventually atomized.. John Hamer's ancestor, William Winchester, briefly served as one of Rigdon's apostles. Emergence of the Bickertonites: The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonites) originated from a branch in Pittsburgh led by William Bickerton, who had been Rigdon's last apostle. This group reorganized after William Bickerton and his followers broke with Brigham Young's church when polygamy was publicly announced in 1852. The Bickertonites are considered the only viable part of the "Rigdonite branch". RLDS (Community of Christ) Succession Joseph Smith III's Legitimacy: The RLDS church's legitimacy for Joseph Smith III's presidency rested on two main pillars: ◦ Appointment by Predecessor: Joseph Smith Jr. had indicated his son as a successor, supported by a verse in the Doctrine and Covenants stating the prophet has "power... to appoint another in his stead". Joseph Smith III himself later emphasized this "appointment" principle for future successions. ◦ Royal Line of Joseph: Many members desired a leader from the "seed of Joseph" (the Smith family line). This idea was heavily promoted by William Smith, Joseph Jr.'s brother, who published pamphlets arguing for the importance of lineage, citing the Book of Mormon and the New Testament example of James (Jesus's brother) leading the early Christian church. William Smith was a problematic figure, excommunicated for polygamy, but his arguments influenced the early Reorganization. World Conference Authority: Technically, the General Conference (World Conference), a legislative body, held the authority to select the church president, and Joseph Smith III was initially voted into the role. Leadership Conflicts and Modernization: ◦ Frederick Madison Smith: Joseph Smith III's eldest son, with a Ph.D., became the third prophet-president. He differed significantly from his father, aiming to modernize and bureaucratize the church. ◦ "Supreme Directional Control": F.M. Smith introduced this controversial policy, vesting supreme control in the First Presidency. This led to a major conflict with his brother, Israel A. Smith, who was in the Presiding Bishopric, resulting in the entire Presiding Bishopric's resignation. F.M. Smith ultimately used a "prophetic trump card"—a revelation—to assert his authority. ◦ RC Evans: Joseph Smith III's talented first counselor and orator, who expected to be appointed successor. When F.M. Smith was appointed instead, Evans became very critical. Despite being granted the significant role of Presiding Bishop of Canada, he continued to oppose F.M. Smith and eventually left the church, taking a large portion of the Toronto congregation to form his own church. RC Evans died shortly thereafter in the Spanish flu pandemic, and his church eventually dissolved. F.M. Smith's Legacy: John Hamer views F.M. Smith as the "second reinventor" of the Reorganization, driving significant growth and establishing modern programs like hospitals and orphanages, focusing on the social gospel. He was the last president to generate such substantial growth for the church. The discussion also briefly touches on the Kirtland Temple, where the RLDS Church (Community of Christ) did not permit weddings or baptisms for the dead due to a desire to avoid association with LDS temple practices. John Hamer personally distinguishes between "temples" (like Kirtland) and "endowment houses" (smaller, standardized LDS temples), based on the level of sacrifice involved in their construction. Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved


    Controversial RLDS Beliefs (John Hamer 2 of 6) Aug 20, 2025
    Show notes

    We'll discuss controversial RLDS beliefs with John Hamer, a Seventy with the Community of Christ. We're focusing on the 1844 succession crisis, its lasting impact on both the LDS and Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) churches. He's the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism. Don’t miss this fascinating discussion! https://youtu.be/mscrLYLKZs0 00:00 How 1844 Succession Affects Us Today 8:15 How Baptism For Dead Was De-canonized 14:22 Will Book of Mormon Be De-canonized? 24:10 Black Priesthood in Community of Christ 36:37 3 Official Languages in CoC Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Succession Crisis and its Legacy: ◦ The 1844 schism "froze" both churches into peculiar systems, as each justified its own succession to assert legitimacy. ◦ LDS Church Succession: Brigham Young's claim relied on his position as the senior-most apostle, a concept that was not established doctrine in 1844 but emerged from the crisis. ◦ Community of Christ (RLDS) Succession: Joseph Smith III's claim was supported by patriarchal blessings and prophecies. His acceptance of the prophet role in 1860 solidified the General Conference's (legislative) authority to choose the prophet. Sidney Rigdon also made a claim to leadership, presenting himself as a "guardian of the church.” ◦ The Mark Hofmann forgery of Joseph Smith Jr.'s blessing to Joseph Smith III is discussed, noting its incorrect date caused dissonance Jerald & Sandra Tanner. It was acquired by the LDS Church, which then traded it to the RLDS Church for a copy of the Book of Commandments. The RLDS Church put it in the appendix of their version of the Doctrine & Covenants & then later removed this forgery from its historical appendix through a "historical appendectomy.” RLDS Doctrine and Covenants and De-canonization: ◦ The Community of Christ's Doctrine and Covenants is an active scripture, with new sections added through votes by elected representatives at World Conferences. The conference also has the power to remove sections, which it has done several times. ◦ Baptism for the Dead: This practice was removed from the RLDS Doctrine and Covenants, largely due to the church's desire to distance itself from associations with LDS temples and practices, particularly those perceived as "secret" or "embarrassing.” John Hamer expresses a nuanced view, considering it meaningless as a necessary saving ordinance for random names but "incredibly valid and amazing" as a spiritual practice for connecting with cherished ancestors (e.g., Jane Manning James). ◦ Blacks in the Priesthood (RLDS): Joseph Smith III's 1860s revelation allowed black men to hold the priesthood but included a racist caveat to "be not hasty" in ordaining them, reflecting the prevailing societal racism of the 1860s. A recent World Conference resolution to remove this section was voted down, with John Hamer arguing against removal to avoid setting a precedent of "Jefferson Bible" editing scripture. ◦ De-canonization of the Book of Mormon: There's a "dig" (and potential validity) that the Community of Christ "doesn't believe in the Book of Mormon" in the same way other groups do. Some leaders and members, traumatized by the "New Mormon History" and historical-literary criticism suggesting the Book of Mormon is a 19th-century construct, have proposed to "jettison all of this stuff.” However, others, especially older members, find it essential to their identity. John Hamer "firmly anticipates" a resolution to remove the Book of Mormon from the canon, though he personally opposes it. Controversial Beliefs: Understanding Scripture ◦ John Hamer advocates for viewing scripture as "errant, not inerrant.” He believes scripture is a "human response to God's revelation," filled with the "biases and limitations of every prophet.” ◦ He argues against treating scripture as a "perfect idol" or a "literalistic rule book," emphasizing that doing so misses its true meaning and prevents growth. He compares attempts to remove "pseudepigraphic" books (like some Pauline or Petrine letters) to treating the Book of Mormon, or even the Old Testament Book of Daniel (which he calls a "pious fraud"), as disposable. RLDS Church Operations and Challenges: ◦ The World Conference functions as a "giant legislature" where resolutions are debated and voted upon. ◦ The Community of Christ has three official languages: English, French, and Spanish. A resolution to put all scriptures online in these languages was narrowly voted down, with the official pretext being cost, but John Hamer believes the real reason was a desire by some leaders to minimize exposure to elements like the Book of Mormon they find embarrassing. ◦ The church's control over intellectual property is criticized, particularly regarding the Kirtland Temple, where photos were forbidden, hindering its use as a missionary tool. ◦ The conversation touches on the resignation of Israel A. Smith (presiding bishop) and Fred Smith's use of a "prophetic trump card" (revelation) to pass a decision. The episode serves as a deep dive into the historical complexities, theological evolution, and ongoing challenges faced by the Community of Christ, contrasting its journey with that of the LDS Church. Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved


    Sunstone 50’s Restoration Churches (John Hamer 1 of 6) Aug 18, 2025
    Show notes

    I’m excited to welcome John Hamer back to the show. John is a Seventy in the Community of Christ and a remarkable historian of Restoration Churches. Earlier this month, he was in Utah for the 50th Anniversary of Sunstone, and today we’ll be talking about the many ways to Mormon, including some of the Restoration Churches/schismatic groups that were represented at Sunstone. This episode will be part of a broader conversation about various Latter Day Saint schismatic movements. Join us for the discussion! https://youtu.be/1-hvle_929o Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Exploring the "Multiple Ways to Mormon" at Sunstone's 50th Anniversary The recent 50th anniversary of the Sunstone Symposium in Utah provided a unique opportunity to delve into the rich and diverse landscape of the Mormon culture and restoration heritage. John Hamer is a three-time guest on Gospel Tangents and a Seventy with the Community of Christ. Sunstone serves as an "open diverse forum" that welcomes individuals from all backgrounds, whether they are orthodox LDS, fundamentalists, or members of the Community of Christ. This gathering truly embodies the idea that there is "more than one way to Mormon". There are various schismatic groups that emerged after the pivotal 1844 schism which Joseph Smith died. These groups form distinct branches of the restoration tradition, each with its own unique history and practices. Major Restoration Churches of the Restoration Following the 1844 schism, two primary branches emerged: The Brighamite Branch: This branch is by far the largest expression of the restoration tradition. It includes: ◦ The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). ◦ All of the fundamentalist churches, such as the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) which is also called “The Work”, & the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS Church). ◦ The "new emerging remnant movement" with Denver Snuffer. The Josephite Branch: Named for Joseph Smith III, this branch includes the Community of Christ, formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Within the Josephite tradition, there are also: ◦ Independent expressions or "restorationists". These groups broke away from the mainline Community of Christ Church over issues like women in the priesthood and lineal succession. Some of these have grouped together in a confederacy of churches, like the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB. See our interview with apostle Patrick McKay.) ◦ The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is considered a "restorationist church" by Josephites. Figures like Terry Patience, the new prophet-president, and Jim Vun Cannon have been prominent within this church. (Jim now leads a different church, the Everlasting Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Day.) These "Josephite fundamentalists" are distinct from polygamists. Lesser-Known but Significant Restoration Churches Sunstone also provides a platform for understanding smaller, yet historically significant, schismatic groups: The Bickertonites (Church of Jesus Christ with headquarters in Monongahela, Pennsylvania): ◦ They are generally considered the third largest branch to emerge after the 1844 schism, with an estimated 25,000 members. ◦ They see themselves as "the true one true church" and are noted for retaining spiritual gifts from the Kirtland era, including speaking in tongues and spontaneous services. Their services feature spontaneous talks and no pre-written bulletins, similar to practices found in the Centennial Park group. ◦ Their heartlands are primarily in Pittsburgh and Detroit. ◦ Notably, they have recently produced an academically trained historian, Daniel Stone, who has focused on William Bickerton and their own history. His book is highly recommended. The Strangites: ◦ They maintain an "interesting and intact early Mormon gathering place" in Voree, Wisconsin, with stone houses, a temple site, and other historical locations from the 1840s. ◦ They are Seventh Day Sabbatarians, holding church services on Saturdays. ◦ Their class discussions often involve opening their "fourth book of restoration scripture," the Book of the Law of the Lord, and discussing revelations from James Strang. Influence of "New Mormon History" The Sunstone Symposium's 50th anniversary coincided with significant anniversaries for other institutions of "New Mormon history," such as the John Whitmer Historical Association (JWHA) and the Mormon History Association (MHA), both reaching their 50-year marks. This period, starting in the 1950s and 60s, saw a critical re-evaluation of Mormon history through academic scholarship. Key figures and works that shaped this field include: Robert Flanders: His "early incredible academic book," Nauvoo Kingdom on the Mississippi, published by this RLDS scholar, revealed that Joseph Smith had initiated polygamy. This revelation caused a "collective faith crisis" that both the LDS and Community of Christ churches, and their members, have grappled with. Newell Bringhurst: Co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism within Mormonism with John Hamer, Bringhurst is praised as a "treasure for the New Mormon history" due to his prolific work on various topics, including "Blacks in the priesthood". David Howlett: Raised in a "restorationist household" (Josephite fundamentalists), he later joined the Community of Christ and served as MHA president, becoming an "incredible thinker, teacher, professor, speaker". Steve Shields: Author of Divergent Paths of the Restoration, he is recognized as a leading scholar on the many small groups within Mormonism. Community of Christ: Structure and Modern Challenges John Hamer also shed light on the Community of Christ's distinct organizational structure. Unlike the LDS Church, where the First Presidency is an extension of the Quorum of the Twelve, the Community of Christ's apostles are specifically a "traveling quorum" focused on missionary work in the field, not based at headquarters. The world is divided among these twelve apostles, with assignments rearranging at each world conference. Recent changes include a "huge turnover" with six new apostles and a significant scrambling of apostolic fields, with some fields, like the USA, now having multiple apostles. For example, Apostle Lach MacKay, who previously covered the northeastern United States and historic sites, is now responsible for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific Islands, and Europe. The discussions at Sunstone, like those with John Hamer, offer invaluable insights into the complex and continually unfolding story of the restoration tradition, celebrating its diverse expressions and grappling with its challenging past. Tell us about your experiences at Sunstone! Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved


    Sonia Johnson Is Different Kind of Lesbian (Chris Talbot 4 of 4) Aug 13, 2025
    Show notes

    Following the dissolution of her marriage, Sonia Johnson came up with her own view of gender essentialism and had some lesbian relationships. Was she bisexual, or a political lesbian? Dr Chris Talbot explains. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/glgWdkMlcJ8 Don’t miss our other episodes with Dr Chris Talbot! https://gospeltangents.com/people/chris-talbot/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. Unpacking Sonia Johnson: Relationships, Radical Philosophy, & ERA's Shadowy Politics In a fascinating deep dive with biographer Dr. Chris Talbot, we’ll dive into the life of Mormon feminist Sonia Johnson, particularly after her divorce and excommunication from the LDS Church, we gain intriguing insights into her evolving relationships, her radical philosophy, and the church's complex involvement in the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) debate. Sonia Johnson's Journey: From Excommunication to Political Lesbianism One of the most striking ironies discussed is how the church and conservatives worried that passing the ERA would lead to widespread lesbianism and homosexuality, only for Sonia Johnson herself to become a lesbian. This development, however, was framed less as a sexual reorientation in the conventional sense and more as a "political lesbianism." This phenomenon, as described by historians, involved a conscious choice to devote oneself to women as a collective or "species," building one's life around these devotions, which inherently meant avoiding intimate relationships with men. For Johnson, this commitment stemmed from her profound desire to reject male-centered, patriarchal societal structures; she declared, "No man will ever become the center of my life again". The nature of her sexuality is explored with nuance, acknowledging that sexuality is fluid and not always confined to "discrete categories". While Johnson had four children and didn't seem to have a history of sexual attraction to women prior to her excommunication, this attraction reportedly "grew in her as she moved along" after the traumatic experience. The question of whether she was a "fake lesbian" or "real lesbian" is dismissed as largely a matter of "socially constructed categories". Radical Critique of Relationships Sonia Johnson's post-excommunication relationships were not without their challenges. Her first lesbian relationship, with her therapist, ended poorly due to ethical issues and her partner's managerial role. This experience profoundly shaped Johnson's philosophy on relationships, culminating in her fourth book, The Ship That Sailed into the Living Room. At the heart of her critique was the idea that relationships, by their very nature, are built around hierarchy. Johnson articulated a discomfort with the "driving and being driven" dynamic in sexual encounters, finding it personally, politically, and philosophically troubling. She argued that even in alternating roles, relationships inherently embed a power imbalance. This anti-hierarchy stance extended to her view on monogamy and marriage. She didn't want anyone to marry anyone, viewing monogamous commitments as inherently "restrictive and controlling" of one's sexuality and love. Interestingly, her critique resonated with a small polyamory community in Salt Lake City, who saw her work as a guide to why monogamy was problematic due to its inherent hierarchy. After another unsuccessful relationship, Johnson eventually found a long-term partner, Jade Deforest. Their relationship is built on a unique "touching experiment," detailed in her fifth book, Out of This World. The core principle is self-motivated touching – touching for the pleasure of the act itself, rather than to elicit a specific feeling in the other person. This approach aims to eliminate the perceived hierarchy, as "someone's driving and someone's being driven". This experimental approach has led to a seemingly successful and lasting relationship for Johnson. The Church's Role in the ERA: A "Grassy Knoll" Situation? The discussion also delved into the highly contested facts surrounding the LDS Church's involvement in the ERA movement. The exact extent and nature of the church's activism are "mushy" and disputed, with even basic facts like the appointment of official spokesperson Beverly Campbell being unclear. A significant point of contention is "plausible deniability." While church leaders like Beverly Campbell claimed that "citizens councils" were not official arms of the church, they openly admitted to using the church's existing hierarchy, such as phone trees, because "it's there". This mirrors the arguments used during California's Prop 8 campaign, where the Church similarly denied direct involvement despite evidence of significant influence and similar funding models. A key figure repeatedly mentioned in these events is President Hinckley, who appears to be a "common denominator" in Special Affairs, the ERA controversy, and later discussions around gay marriage. However, without a "smoking gun" like his diaries, definitive scholarly statements about his intent for plausible deniability cannot be made. The complexity boils down to how one defines "the Church". If the Church is viewed solely as a formal, structural organization, then arguments for its non-involvement in citizens' councils hold some weight. However, if "the Church" is understood as a broader "culture, a community, an imagined community," with unspoken expectations and rules, then it becomes much harder to argue that the Church wasn't involved. The situation is likened to a "grassy knoll" scenario, where the truth remains ambiguous and depends on one's perspective. This conversation offers a rare glimpse into the personal and political life of Sonia Johnson, highlighting her unconventional path and her profound philosophical critiques of societal norms, particularly regarding relationships. It also underscores the enduring ambiguity surrounding the historical actions of institutions like the LDS Church when engaging in political movements. Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.


    Unraveling the 1838 Mormon Missouri War: Insights from Historian Steven LeSueur Aug 10, 2025
    Show notes

    This is a rebroadcast. The 1838 Mormon Missouri War remains a pivotal and often tragic chapter in Latter-day Saint history. We’re revisiting an interview with Steven LeSueur, an esteemed historian and author of what is considered by many to be the definitive book on the conflict, "The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri.” LeSueur, who sadly passed away in July 2025, was remembered for his significant contributions to understanding this complex period. https://youtu.be/YGlNLnA9RIA Historian Behind the Book LeSueur, who lived in Arlington, Virginia, was not a full-time historian. He described his career primarily as a journalist, covering national defense issues, editing a technology magazine, and working as a freelance writer for businesses before his retirement. Despite this, his historical expertise was profound. His seminal book, published in 1987 by the University of Missouri Press, originated from his master's thesis in American history at George Mason University. His interest in Missouri history stemmed from early research work he did for Lamar Barrett at BYU in 1976-1977, immediately after graduating with his undergraduate history degree from BYU. This early work involved delving into diaries and letters to find references to "Adam's altar" (Adam-ondi-Ahman) and exploring various historical sites in Missouri. For his book, LeSueur conducted extensive research at the Library of Congress, Utah archives, and multiple trips to Missouri, even staying with prominent Community of Christ historian Bill Russell, who, along with Valeen Tippets Avery, reviewed his manuscript. LeSueur also lent his expertise to a documentary called "Trouble in Zion," where he was one of several "talking heads" discussing the Mormon experience in Missouri, sharing his interpretations of the events. Seeds of Conflict: Beyond Simple Blame LeSueur’s approach to the Mormon Missouri War focuses on understanding how events unfolded, emphasizing a snowball effect of reactions rather than a grand conspiracy. While recognizing the immense suffering of the Mormons, he seeks to explain why Missourians reacted as they did. Key events & LeSueur's interpretations include: Jackson County Expulsion (1832): The Mormons were unjustly driven from Jackson County, having done nothing wrong. While a newspaper article about "Free People of Color" was a point of contention, LeSueur suggests Missourians' misinterpretation was likely driven by their deep-seated fear of anything perceived as attacking slavery, rather than solely as an excuse to expel Mormons. The Caldwell County Compromise (1836): After Mormons were driven from Jackson and found refuge in Clay County, Joseph Smith's plans for another military expedition prompted fearful Clay County citizens to propose creating a county exclusively for Mormons – Caldwell County. This was shepherded by Alexander Doniphan. The "Broken Agreement": Missourians largely believed that, in exchange for Caldwell County, Mormons had implicitly agreed to settle only there. LeSueur found no such agreement in Mormon sources, but Missourians, including Doniphan, clearly perceived it. For about a year and a half (late 1836 into 1838), relations were relatively peaceful, resting on this perceived agreement. Joseph Smith's Arrival and Mormon Expansion (March 1838): When Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon moved from Kirtland to Missouri, Far West (in Caldwell County) became the new gathering place, and plans for expansion beyond Caldwell into Davies (Adam-ondi-Ahman) and Carroll (Dewitt) counties began. This expansion, especially large-scale settlements, was seen by Missourians as breaking the agreement and triggered renewed protests. The Danites: This paramilitary organization was formed in June 1838, primarily by Samson Avard and others. Initially, their purpose was internal regulation, enforcing orthodoxy and the law of consecration among Mormons. They notably drove dissenters like Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmers from Far West after Sidney Rigdon's "salt sermon". LeSueur argues that Joseph Smith implicitly approved of their actions; Danite generals were honored guests at the July 4th celebration, and Joseph spoke to and endorsed them. While Joseph may not have directed every action, LeSueur asserts that the "buck stops with Joseph," as the Danites looked to him for leadership and enforced his policies. The demotion of Danite leaders like Avard and Gideon Carter further indicates Joseph's ultimate authority. Sidney Rigdon's July 4th Oration: Rigdon's speech, which threatened a "war of extermination" if Missourians came against the Mormons, was a significant turning point. LeSueur clarifies that this speech was a joint effort by the First Presidency (Joseph, Hyrum, and Sidney) and was later printed and promoted by Joseph Smith, indicating his full endorsement. This threat likely stemmed from an anticipation of opposition to Mormon expansion and a confidence in their growing numbers. Escalation to Mormon Missouri War ◦ The Gallatin Election Battle in August 1838 saw Missourians attempt to prevent Mormons from voting in Davies County, leading to Danite involvement. ◦ The Siege of Dewitt by Carroll County vigilantes led to Mormons surrendering and retreating to Far West after Governor Boggs refused to provide state aid. ◦ In response, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon rallied Mormons on October 14, declaring they would "live off the land of our enemies". Mormon forces, including many Danites, then engaged in widespread burning and plundering of non-Mormon properties in Davies County, including Gallatin and Millport, actions that occurred while Joseph Smith was present. LeSueur differs from some historians by asserting these actions were not just by "extremists" but were known and condoned by Joseph Smith, leading Missourians to view Mormons as being in rebellion. ◦ The Battle of Crooked River on October 25 occurred when Mormons, led by David W. Patten, attacked Captain Samuel Bogart's militia to free captured Mormon spies. Patten was killed. LeSueur believes the Missourians were genuinely defending themselves, not "baiting" the Mormons. ◦ This culminated in Governor Lilburn Boggs issuing the infamous "Extermination Order" on October 27, declaring Mormons "enemies of the state". ◦ The Hawn's Mill Massacre on October 30, where 17 Mormons were killed, occurred before the extermination order was widely known. LeSueur agrees that had the order reached the attackers, it might have prevented the massacre. Joseph Smith's Arrest and Imprisonment: Joseph Smith and other leaders surrendered at Far West on November 1, recognizing they could not win against the overwhelming state forces. General Lucas sentenced them to death by court-martial, but General Alexander Doniphan famously refused to carry out the illegal order. Joseph was imprisoned in Liberty Jail for treason, following a preliminary hearing that found probable cause. He was later released by a sheriff during a transfer. LeSueur points out that while the Mormons eventually gained sympathy and were wronged, their actions, particularly the burning and plundering in Davies County, contributed significantly to the Missourians' perception of them as aggressive and rebellious. He emphasizes that many Missourians were initially sympathetic but lost that sympathy as the conflict escalated. Steven LeSueur's "The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri" remains an invaluable resource for understanding the complexities and unfolding events of this tragic period in American and Mormon history. 0:00 Mapping Mormon History in Missouri 16:29 Peace During Caldwell County Compromise 36:53 Vigilanties & Danites 58:00 When Did Missourians Worry about Danites? 1:22:50 How much was Joseph Responsible for Danites? 1:39:16 Crooked River Leads to Extermination Order 1:58:44 Hawn's Mill/Joseph's Surrender 2:17:53 Liberty Jail Hearing & Escape 2:35:34 Attempt on Gov Boggs' Life


    Mormons, Shootouts, & Outlaws: Wild West Murder of Frank LeSueur Aug 07, 2025
    Show notes

    This is a re-broadcast of my 2023 interview with Steve LeSueur. Unfortunately Steve passed away from pancreatic cancer on July 1, 2025. Mormons were part of the untamed world of the Wild West—complete with outlaws, shootouts, and the kind of drama you'd expect straight out of a western film. In this episode, Steve LeSueur shares the gripping story of his great-uncle Frank LeSueur and his friend Gus Gibbons, who were murdered by the notorious outlaw gang known as The Wild Bunch. There’s even a surprising connection to the infamous Butch Cassidy. Join us as we explore the real dangers Mormons faced on the frontier. Don’t miss our conversation... https://youtu.be/QcPqQ7TQPrE Don’t miss our other conversations with Steve: https://gospeltangents.com/people/steve-lesueur/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. Today, we're sharing a powerful story that highlights the often-overlooked human cost of the Wild West era, brought to life by a historian who deeply personal connection to the past. We're talking about Steve LeSueur, a wonderful historian and author who sadly passed away in July 2025 due to pancreatic cancer. This post is a tribute to his work and his last interview on Gospel Tangents, where he discussed his remarkable book, Life and Death on the Mormon Frontier: The Murders of Frank LeSueur and Gus Gibbons by The Wild Bunch, published by Greg Kofford Books. Steve LeSueur was driven to explore a piece of his own family history that had been shrouded in mystery for generations. His great-uncle, Frank LeSueur, was murdered by outlaws in 1900. While his family always knew Frank was killed, the details were scarce, and the killers were believed to have gotten away with little effort to capture them. His grandfather, Carl LeSueur, Frank's younger brother, was only five when Frank was killed and didn't have many details to share. For over a century, it was largely considered "some minor episode in western history". However, in recent years, historians and biographers specializing in outlaws like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid began to point fingers. These historians, some of whom had Mormon ties, suggested that Butch Cassidy's Wild Bunch gang were the likely culprits behind Frank's death. This new information ignited Steve's interest, drawing him into a deeper investigation. What truly set Steve's work apart was his unique perspective: focusing on the victims. As he noted, historians often prioritize the outlaws, their daring heists, and exciting getaways, treating victims as mere "bit players" or "extras in a movie". Steve, however, looked at the events from the victim's point of view, reading journals, diaries, and reminiscences left behind by Latter-day Saints in the community. He discovered a compelling story that offered numerous insights into both the outlaws and the community itself. It turns out, not many people have an ancestor killed by a famous outlaw. Despite the year being 1900, which might sound somewhat modern, the setting for this tragedy was truly still the Wild West. Frank LeSueur's murder occurred just outside St. Johns, Arizona, a "dusty cattle and sheep town". In 1900, this town had no electricity and no running water. It was an era where cars and airplanes were not yet commonplace. Steve LeSueur's research has profoundly enhanced our understanding of this specific Wild West tragedy, shifting the narrative to those who suffered the most. His book stands as a vital contribution to history, reminding us that every "bit player" has a story worth telling. We miss Steve greatly, and our hearts go out to his family. Don’t miss our other conversations with Steve: https://gospeltangents.com/people/steve-lesueur/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.


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