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image credit | Mario Purisic Season 4, Episode 15: Climate Arts and Social Dreaming with Kamila Kuc and Julian ManleyThomas and Panu connected with Julian Manley and Kamila Kuc who joined in from Scotland and London to explore the intersections of climate change, emotions and the arts. Kamila and Julian described their recent collaboration using the practice of social dreaming, a group process to discuss and find larger meaning, emotional reality, and direction from personal dreams. Hosting social dreaming gatherings is a powerful way to foster community dialogue about eco and climate emotions and support artistic practices such as poetry and film making. They had a rich dialogue about art, action, and ways to envision nature as an active participant in our collective dreams. LinksKamila Kuc FilmsJulian ManleyManley 2018 Social Dreaming, Associative Thinking and Intensities of AffectSocial Dreaming Workshop: Cadence 2025 – Reimagining Climate Futures: Creative Practices for Social Change TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity. [music: “CC&H theme music”] Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. Doherty: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, this is our podcast. It’s a show for people around the world who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change andother environmental issues. We talk about a lot of topics on this podcast. Our mission is to probe what it means to be happy in the modern world. We talk about our environmental values, beliefs, feelings, identity. And also, interesting endeavors and people who are working in different places on different interesting projects. We’re really glad and happy to have two very special and interesting guests today. Julian Manley is someone that we know who’s associated with this idea of social dreaming, which we’ll talk about. And he’s coming in from Scotland. And Kamila Kuc is a very interesting filmmaker who I know through various channels and who’s also now moving into studying and doing work around climate change, eco-therapy, climate therapy. So, we have both of these folks together, and there’s a number of connections with Julian and Kamila’s work to guests that we’ve had on this podcast and writing and work that Panu’s been doing. So, it’s a neat sort of personal and professional connection today. Panu, do you want to get us started?Pihkala: Warm welcome also on my behalf. I’m very pleased to have you on our podcast.We usually ask people something about their journeys towards engagement with climate change matters, whether that is via psychology or arts or social dreaming or many possibilities. But perhaps starting with Julian, would you like to tell us something about your journey? How did you become engaged with these topics?Julian Manley: I was born in England and brought up in France, my mother is French, and then I lived for a while in Spain and now I’m back in Scotland and I think that moving around from place to place opens up your mind to different cultures and different environments. I studied English at university and that brought me into contact with the Romantic poets and through the Romantic poets, I began to have a specific and special interest in the connection between the human and the natural world. And since then, I’ve just developed those thoughts and ideas. I’ve become a director of the Climate Psychology Alliance and been very interested in understanding how psychology and psychoanalytical ideas can bring you closer to a relationship with nature. And, to an understanding of how society and relationships between people can be translated into relationships between people and nature and nature and people. So that’s the kind of journey I’ve been on until now.Pihkala: Yeah, well thanks Julian for sharing that and greetings from the northern corner of Europe. I hear that you’ve been around many parts of Europe and I’ve been reading your work via books which have come through Climate Psychology Alliance and once had the privilege of meeting some Scottish Climate Psychology Alliance folks when visiting there. So, we have some connections, but how about you, Kamila? What would you like to share about your journey at this point?Kamila Kuc: Yeah, thank you for having us. It’s such a great avenue to be having those conversations. I grew up in a small town in Poland, but I spent a lot of my childhood at my grandparent’s farm. My grandparent’s house was right at the edge of the forest, which is now half of its size, unfortunately. Then at the age of 19, I traveled between New York and Paris, and ended up in London. And I nowadays spend half of my time in London trying to get out to go surfing, mainly to Cornwall. I’ve always been interested in the topic of climate change, but I come to the topic from a perspective of an artist, a person that has worked a lot with communities. So typically, my work would take me to smaller places in the world. For example, my last previous film was made in the war-torn zone in Abkhazia, a place between Russian Federation and Georgia, where I worked with local communities about issues that they’re facing largely around war memories. Then, I worked with women at a care home in Morocco, with issues of abuse and poverty. But I’ve really been thinking recently about different methods of working with communities but on a slightly larger scale. So, I was thinking about what the biggest forces in the world right now that are affecting everybody. And of course, you know, climate change is the obvious one. That sort of hyper-object of climate change. I spent some time, about a year, studying it, and my connection with Thomas, learning about Panu’s work and connection with Julian through social dreaming conversations is how I arrived here and formed this perspective. Doherty: Yeah, that’s really great. Every time we have guests, it’s always interesting to hear their backgrounds. And that’s why I love this idea of environmental identity or just this general open question of how is it that you come to this topic, because it just opens up the door to neat facets of people’s lives. Such as, where they grew up, their travels, and being multicultural or bicultural and the role of the landscape that forms us. That’s under the surface for everyone, but we just don’t think about it. You know, and another thing that’s under the surface is dreaming and our dreams. We know technically that all humans dream every night in some form through our sleep cycles and at different times and places, dreams arise to be part of culture or not. And so, I thought we’d talk about some of your individual projects and then get into these collaborations that are happening. But Julian, I know that you’ve done a lot of different kinds of work with people and you’re one of the leaders in this idea of social dreaming, which is a public outreach modality to get people to work together and think and feel differently about issues and be creative. I thought you could talk just a little bit in general terms about it so we could see how this fits into a lot of the themes that we’re talking about on the podcast.Manley: Yeah, sure. The thing about social dreaming is that it’s asking people to get together in a group and share their nighttime dreams. So, we’re talking about actual dreams that people have. We’re not talking about dreams or ambitions about the future. And the innovationin social dreaming is that you’re actually talking to people about dreams, but those dreams don’t belong to you as an individual when you’re talking about them in a group. Those dreams belong to the group as a whole. In other words, they belong to the social sphere. And that’s why we talk about the social unconscious or the associative unconscious when we talk about social dreaming. And it’s important to understand that dreaming is actually just thinking. It’s thinking when you’re asleep. So, one of things I’ve been interested in doing with social dreaming is to understand with other people that there’s nothing strange or unusual about sharing your dreams. Indigenous populations have been doing this for centuries, if not thousands of years. That’s because dreaming is just thinking while you’re asleep. And while you’re asleep, you can think about things in a different way. So, by sharing your dreams, you can share your thoughts about the world that you live in, but you can do it in a differentway to when you’re sharing something in a conscious way of thinking. And when we’re conscious, we try to rationalize things and we miss out on the important emotional aspects of how we relate to people and how we relate to the environment. And I think that’s really essential in lots of complex situations in life. But particularly, since we’re focusing a little bit on the climate emergency and our relationship with nature, it’s really anxiety provoking to imagine what’s happening with the end of the planet, more or less. The apocalypse coming up, the climate emergency. That anxiety prevents us from taking action and this is what we can see in the world today. Despite the rational knowledge that climate change is caused by human intervention and by the burning of fossil fuels, we seem to find it very, very difficult to move forward. And that’s because we’re not connecting the emotional reality of what that means to the decisions we have to take. The work that we’ve been doing with social dreaming related to climate psychology has demonstrated that through thinking with social dreaming you can come to a clearer, better, more holistic, more complete understanding of the climate emergency. And if you can reach a more complete understanding of the climate emergency, then in theory, you can actually take decisions that make a difference.Doherty: Yeah, this is beautiful. I have some thoughts that I want to share, but Panu, how is this dovetailing with your understanding of climate emotions in your work and what you see happening in Finland and other places?Pihkala: Yeah, thanks Julian for introducing us to that. I work a lot with climate emotions and facilitate workshops, but not dream discussions. I know that there’s several psychotherapists in the climate psychology sphere who do that, and I’ve collaborated with some of them, like Sally Gillespie from Australia, who comes more from a Jungian perspective and dreams are very important in her work. She’s been discussing those with workshop members. The way in which some deep emotions and thoughts of ours appear in dreams is very fascinating and years ago there was this book by Michael Otis Hill called Dreaming the End of the World which was fascinating and quite heavy to read because it’s so evocative and the images can be quite powerful. I find this topic very fascinating, but how does that resonate with your work, Kamila? What’s the connection points?Kuc: Yeah, thank you. I was just thinking about how Julian and I met at some conference outside of London some years ago. And then during COVID, Julian and I held a series of social dreaming matrices with Duke University. Do you remember, Julian? We spent long days and evenings, I think once a week, doing matrices and that was really amazing because in my artistic practice, I’ve always been interested in working with dreams. But this has opened a completely different avenue because, Julian, you used that phrase beautifully with emotional reality and how, when you let that dream go, once it’s in a matrix, it kind of belongs to everybody and it’s a much more, in some ways, neutral way of discussing difficult emotions and difficult ideas. So, for me, the social dreaming has become kind of a, I don’t want to say a tool because I don’t know that that’s the right word, but it’s become a sort of vehicle for me to connect with people and all different communities. So, one of the most important components of the project that we’re currently working on, which all of you are part of, is social dreaming matrices, which hopefully Julian will be able to deliver many of them. But the idea, as Julian mentioned, is how you connect people and more importantly, how you connect people who might have very disparate ideas about the same topic. But I think that emotional reality is really important because particularly with the climate crisis, we know the facts, we know the numbers, but there is also that idea of yours, Thomas, of climate hostages. Like what Julian said, that anxiety that we have is so paralyzing that we end up with this kind of wide-mouthed apocalypse narratives and meanwhile nobody is doing anything. So, I think my response to that through my artistic practice is to create collaborations, artistic alliances, but also create groups of people where we can think through those ideas through creative practices.Doherty: Yeah, it’s fascinating. So, listeners, you can think about this. The meta message with a lot of our conversations is that solutions, ideas, and creativity are happening in real time with real people that are meeting each other at conferences and working together. Panu and I work together on this podcast and Kamila and Julian are working on things. A lot of its about active collaboration. The idea of a social dreaming group is called a matrix or matrice and a matrix is sort of a mold or an environment where things grow out of. So, this is the kind of matrice of all our work. I’m talking about listeners and everyone. We’re all working together in some form with people. One equalizing factor for humans, for better and worse, is that we all have dreams, in terms of visions and goals, but we also all have dreams. All humans dream, no matter what your political party is. I think a lot of people are closet dream lovers and don’t necessarily know how to talk about it. I remember when I worked with young people doing outdoor wilderness therapy years ago, one of my most favorite parts of these three-week long expeditions in the forest or in the desert is that every morning we would have a dream circle with the young people. And I was, as a therapist, using it very strategically to check in on the kids and see how they were doing. But you learn so much from people when they talk about their dreams, because of course we were thinking differently, and certain parts of our brain are on and certain parts of our brain are off. It was a little bit of social dreaming, in another form, because we would share our dreams together. But it was therapy so we were always focused on interpreting and putting it inside the person, as traditional Freudian dream interpretation would be. But this is different, right? With social dreaming, we are using our dreams to connect in real time. So, it’s not about some sort of mystical collected unconscious that exists in another reality. It’s literally our collective unconscious that’s manifesting right here in the day. Right Julian? That’s part of it?Manley: Yeah, that’s right. And I think the advantage of social dreaming is that it actually is not therapy. It’s very important to understand that it isn’t therapy. We’re thinking together with the thoughts that we had in our nighttime thinking. And as soon as we understand that, sharing your dreams doesn’t become something unusual, it becomes something natural. And if you ever do social dreaming, you’d be quite surprised how natural it feels. Maybe the first five minutes feel a bit odd and a bit strange because you come in with your prejudices about dreams. You kind of think, my dream is my intimate private thing so I’m not going to share it with others. But actually, five minutes into a social dreaming matrix, people just flow with their dreams. And it just demonstrates how natural the entire pro…
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