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**Climate Change and Happiness**

We give language to what you feel about the climate crisis—and also what you might want to feel, feelings you can grow and cultivate. This supports your resilience and your mental health and wellbeing. We invite other experts to join us in our conversations, and we hope you can join us too.

Latest Episodes:

**Season 2, Episode 1: Climate Change In Medias Res** Sep 02, 2022
Show notes

image credit | Ian @travelsnips

**Season 2, Episode 1: Climate Change In Medias Res**
In Season 2, Episode 1, Panu and Thomas reflect on the core question of the Climate Change and Happiness podcast (what does it mean to be “happy” in an era of far reaching and often catastrophic environmental changes) – and particularly how it feels “right now” in Summer 2022 as so many places cope with heat, fires and drought. While young people have known of climate change their entire life, adults and elders can look back to when they first heard about the concept and to the innocence or “blessed unknowing” (using Panu’s evocative term) of that time. Practicing “active hope” Panu and Thomas discussed positive events including the passage of long overdue climate legislation in the US and Thomas’s inspiring dialog with the young creators of the ClimaTwins podcast. To capture his emotional tone this summer, Thomas shared the concept of “In Medias Res” a story-telling device that plunges the audience right into the middle of the action without a preamble (from Latin, literally, into the midst of things). This can also become a conscious coping technique: Being mindful of our state of being thrown into the midst of the world, and pulling back like a film director to remind ourselves of our history and where we want our personal story to go. Panu identified with this, and listeners may find this helpful as well.As always, there are links to some of the topics and ideas that Panu and Thomas discussed.
**Links**
In Medias Res
Alexander Hall 2022 That Fine Rain That Soaks You Through. Exploring the Role of Weather Lore, Cultural Identity, and Community Memory in Shaping Attitudes to Climate Change (on weather identity in Manchester, England)
Thomas on the ClimaTwins Podcast
Active hope as based on detailed and up-to-date information: Reasons to celebrate the recent Deficit Reduction Act.
Looking back at James Hansen’s 1988 Congressional testimony
**Transcript**
*Forthcoming*

**Season 1, Episode 17: Journeys and Rites of Passage** Aug 19, 2022
Show notes

image credit |Mantas Hesthaven

**Season 1, Episode 17: Journeys and Rites of Passage**
Episode 17 features some intimate sharing between Panu and Thomas about their travels and adventures as young men and how this influenced their environmental identities. They looked back at their efforts as “apprentices” and “artisans” in their work on eco- and climate emotions, referencing the Soulcentric Developmental Model of US Depth Psychologist Bill Plotkin. Thomas recognized some key developmental journeys in his life: “going off to the big city,” finding his ancestral and natural place roots in Ireland, traveling “west” in the US to places like Alaska and Grand Canyon. Panu similarly reminisced about his formative youthful hiking experiences in Finland and Iceland. They discussed the process of wilderness therapy and rites of passage, and recognized the “pride of living outside of the culture” and being more attuned to wildness in people who do that work the world-over (as captured in journey narratives like “Into the Wild”). Panu discussed the ideals of spiritual pilgrimage and “slow travel” and Thomas echoed the Henry David Thoreau maxim, “The swiftest traveler goes afoot.” Panu also noted that “the innocence of traveling is strongly challenged” in our era of “flight shame,” now that we need to be aware of the carbon footprint of our life journeys. This adds a unique challenge for young people. Panu mused: Can there be intergenerational justice about travel, and could young people have carbon credits to partake of the same youthful travels that their forebears took for granted? Or can cleaner travel systems like rail be expanded? We can reasonably think of the global climate emergency as a multi-generational planetary rite of passage with numerous opportunities for personal and collective quests, heroic acts, and dealing with the dark side of human nature and the shadow sides of our societies and industrial economies. Our listeners are invited to consider their own life journeys, young adult migrations, current quests, and what pace is most healthy for them at this point in their lives.
**Links**
Depth Psychologist and Rite of Passage Facilitator Bill Plotkin
Animas Valley Institute
A Short Introduction to the Eco-Soulcentric Developmental Wheel: Stages of Life, Rites of Passage, and Cultural Transformation
Ben Wright 2021 Revisiting *Into the Wild*
Academic articles on eco-emotions and tourism and reasons people give for stopping flying due to climate change
**Transcript**
*Forthcoming*

Season 1, Episode 15: Climate Music Pt. 2: Thomas's Playlist Jul 22, 2022

Show notes

image credit |Daniel Schludi Season 1, Episode 15: Climate Music Pt. 2 Thomas's PlaylistPart 2 of our exploration of climate emotions through music: Thomas’s playlist “Shifting Basslines of the Cornucopians” — its title inspired by the Snapped Ankles number, and having a double meaning: Shifting bass lines in the music that inspires us and “Shifting Baselines” in how each generation perceives the natural world. As Thomas notes: “My themes are water and fire, being a hostage to Capitalism and Climate Change, finding refuge, transformation, and our all-togetherness during these challenging times. As Courtney John sings “Yes we are sailing in a different boat. But we are sailing in the same ocean.” In my mix, I am inspired by a variety of sources, the old time music of the Carter Family, the cathartic punk of The Thermals, the immersive ‘Become…’ series of Alaskan composer John Luther Adams, and the tribal techno of ‘Land Back.’ We are nostalgic (and solastalgic) about the beautiful ‘Flatlands’ in ‘The World We Knew’ while the ‘Sword of Damocles’ hangs over our heads. In this ‘Cruel Summer’ with ‘No Snow on the Mountain’ we hope that ‘Somewhere’ there is a place for us.” Let us know about the music that inspires you to express your climate feelings.LinksThomas’s PlaylistStorm Warning, FinlandKEXP, Seattle, Washington, USAMusic Declares Emergency, United KingdomThe Shifting Baseline Problem: Explanation, Findings and FindingsAccelerando: Anthropologist Thomas Hylland Eriksen on the age of acceleration.TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity. [music: “CC&H theme music”] Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.Thomas Doherty: Hello, I am Thomas Doherty. Panu Pihkala: And, I am Panu Pihkala. Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast for people around the world, around the globe, who are thinking deeply about the personal side of climate change. Including their feelings and responses to the climate crisis. And some episodes I've been looking forward to, Panu: Talking about music and playlists—and how we can create our own kind of climate list, a climate playlist of songs that evoke [our] climate change feelings. Emotions and just sensations. And we've been chatting a little bit about your playlist. And I'm going to talk about mine. Tell me a little bit about music and the role of music for you, Panu, in your life and how it links with climate change for you?Pihkala: Yeah. We discussed it in the previous episode, if you listened to that already. Music is a big part of both of our lives and we both play some instruments. For me, I started with piano lessons when I was five years old. My older sister played the piano very well. And I was like “why do I have to learn this?” So it was really a lack of motivation. I learned the basics and then let it go. But then I got excited about popular music when I was about 13 and started to play some more. And then after confirmation school camps, which are [a] very popular thing in Finland still, you know, young people [were] playing together. So then I got excited and started to play the piano really a lot and moved on into improvising a bit later on. So that's the sort of main thing that I do within instruments. And it also helps greatly with emotional expression. But how about you, Thomas? Would you like to share something about your history and relationship with music?Doherty: Yes, Panu. I'm music lover: a “musicophile”. And it's always music. Popular music in particular has always been really important to me and my identity. I've been lucky enough to live in key places for music like New York City in the late 80s. And Seattle in the early 90s. And Portland where I live now. And so, I think music, as I was saying, you know, earlier when we were talking about this … Music allows us to express ourselves. Express our feelings in a way that sometimes we don't have a word for. And also how we want to feel. You know, some of my playlist songs are upbeat, danceable music. And they might be very political and very radical, but they're also, there's a dancing energy in there. So I'm influenced by post-punk music like Gang of Four. You know, that makes songs that both can be danceable and political. So, you know we're so embedded in this system. The dark ecology of a modern world. And the hyper objects of climate change [as we] talked about in past episodes with Timothy Morton's idea. So the music, I think, more than most things helps me to express that. And you'll see that come out in my playlist. Some of that sense of being embedded in a system. Sometimes that's beyond our control.Pihkala: Yeah that's a very cool point, Thomas. And music is funny in the way that it can combine both the darkness and light. And, of course, many artists use this intentionally. And creating interesting mixes of both gravity and lightness. And it's great that music can spark so many things. Even the same song for different persons, or for the same person in different parts of life. So it's very rich. Would you like to share a bit about your playlist in general? What did you have in mind when doing this difficult job of selecting songs?Doherty: Yeah I'll launch into the playlist here in a second. I want to recognize groups like Music Declares Emergency in the UK and I think it's myrskyvaroitus.Pihkala: Myrskyvaroitus.Doherty: Myrskyvaroitus. Storm Warning. The group in Finland. These are musicians working for the climate. So there are musicians that not only are expressing themselves. Doing expressions on our behalf. But also taking action in terms of climate. Even sustainability within the music business. And addressing the carbon impact of the music industry. So I want to shout out to them. And to KEXP which is a station. An international station based in Seattle near where I live that I've been a long time listener and supporter. And it's where I get a lot of my musical community. I wanna mention them. But we'll have links to some of these things in our show notes. I'm going to launch it. And then Panu just feel free to interrupt me as I'm going.My playlist is called “Shifting Baselines of the Cornucopians.” It comes from the title of a song by Snapped Ankles. A British band that I'll talk about a little bit. But that title speaks to me. Shifting Baselines obviously, you know, is a double entendre there. It's bass music, but then shifting baselines is this idea of how our baselines about what the world is keep shifting. Each generation we lose perspective on what's a healthy world and we have to keep reminding ourselves what we're striving for as some parts of the world become more degraded. Or we lose things from the past like species and places. And cornucopians, you know, is this idea of the endless, you know, the endless ability of capitalism to keep creating things. And endless growth. This cornucopian idea in economics is something that is a bit of a religion as you know. And we have to be careful about that because it isn't necessarily true. We do live on a planet. So this Shifting Baselines of the Cornucopians is kind of a lot in the title.Pihkala: That's a very interesting title. And a lot packed into that song. And quite heavy criticism of such a worldview where only money matters. Money or wealth is also present in the opening song, I noticed: "Mining for Gold'. And you have several themes in the playlist.Doherty: Yeah. My opening song is a classic from the Cowboy Junkies “Mining for Gold” from their 1987 Trinity Sessions record. Which is a very important, beautiful one that I've listened to for many years. And the voice of Margot Timmons there. And this theme of the song. It's an old mining song. Hardrock mining song updated for the late 20th century. But it does speak to this idea of going to work. And this paradox of, you know, "I feel like I'm dying from mining for gold" and I think that's a very telling line just in our modern world. And it takes a new resonance during the era of climate change. This idea that we're trapped in systems that we're working through that are actually hurting us and even killing us. And that just becomes plainer and plainer as life goes on. And so there's an economic kind of trapped theme in my playlist. Certainly the "Shifting Baselines' ' song from Snapped Ankles as well even though that's an upbeat dance number. As they say "it's a great time to be alive if you only you've got some funds." So it speaks to inequality. Of course, I've got the classic George Harrison song "I Me Mine." The “naked” [production] version of that song. And that I think is one of the greatest of his songs. And it speaks to that. I think we could play the "I Me Mine" song in the background as the COP 26 and 27 meetings occur. And it really puts a context to the world that we live in. And so there's definitely an economic sort of idea here that weaves through. I mean it's the economics and there's also fire and water. Those are the other themes in my playlist. Pihkala: Yeah. Before going into fire and water, it's that sort of hell and high water theme. We'll hear about that very soon. But stopping for a second. These two dimensions both have an implicatedness. Being a climate hostage as you have often described it, Thomas. And then also this greed element—"I Me Mine"—which of course can be sort of trapped. That people very easily get swept into because many of the values and mores are such in our societies. It also brings a link to one of the Finnish songs in my playlist, this "Kynnet, Kynnet", "Nails, Nails." Which has a line that — "minä minä minä muiden ilmaston pilaa." Which is literally translated "me me me ruins other people's climate." So that was a funny point of connection between "I Me Mine" on your playlist and this Finnish song of mine. How about this fire and water? Sort of contradictory elements, but both very closely related to climate change, of course. Doherty: Yeah. I mean the second song on my playlist is a cover of the 80s song "Cruel Summer." Another classic 80s song. A recent cover by the artist Joon. But, again, these are songs that capture the ominous nature of the modern world. "Cruel Summer" is somewhat of a lightweight kind of pop song that evokes other summery pop songs — of being away from your loved ones or being lonely in the city. But the "Cruel Summer" the way the tone is — "it was a cruel summer." You know, the last few summers have been quite cruel here where I live. They've been hot. We've had these heat disasters. And so it takes on this ominous tone. And then the era of Covid as well. This idea of being isolated and in the heat dome. I thought that "Cruel Summer" really captured that for me. And then "The People Under the Stairs" a classic LA, Los Angeles [hip hop] duo. Their “The effects of climate change on densely populated areas…” is a great rap song that really gets into the — I think it actually does better than some research studies on extreme heat and how it affects people in neighborhoods and in communities. And, you know, speaking to the tension and the violence and the discomfort. So that song really captures some of the heat that we've been experiencing. And then, again, an old song by the Carter Family, "When the World's on Fire." Which is an old gospel song. But, you know, it has that kind of biblical fire element to it. But of course the tune is the same tune that, you know, Woody Guthrie used for "This Land is Your Land." The classic folk tune to the song. And so it's got an eerie resonance when we have the evocation of "This Land is Your Land" and "When the Worlds on Fire." So I think, again it captures the multiple feelings that are coming up, you know, around this work. Pihkala: Yeah. And it comes close to people like it has for you. The heat waves were quite severe in the region where you were living as you described. So, talking about the direct impacts, also. In addition to the indirect and ambient ones as you and Susan Clayton put it years ago. Talking about the impact of climate change. And of course because I have this history with religion and theology, it was interesting to see several songs that make quite an implicit connection with religion. For example, when listening to this Carter Family song, which was new for me. There were lots of new songs in your playlist for me. And that was very interesting. I couldn't help thinking about this sort of religious type of denial of the climate reality. Which is one aspect of the interconnection between religion and climate change. There's several others, like very ardent climate activism that we also see among some religious people. But also these various forms of disavowal. Would you like to speak some more of this, you know, religion connotations in some of these songs?Doherty: Yeah. There's a strong religious theme in the Thermals’ "Here's Your Future." The Thermals and there's also a cathartic element in this playlist as well. And the Thermals is a classic punk band from my town of Portland, Oregon. And, well, I'll leave it to the listeners to find that song. But it really evokes biblical floods. Again that brings us into the water theme. But it really is kind of a lashing song about really throwing the future into our face, so to speak. And it really, I think, like some of your songs that you shared. You know, like the Smashing Pumpkins song you shared in your playlist. You know, it is very cathartic. Gets some of our anger and some of our feelings out. And then we have the water theme that is through this in terms of the ocean. I mean there's this “Strange Boat” song by the Waterboys. Another classic song. It just evokes this journey that we're all on in the modern world. It's like being in a strange boat, in a strange sea. Just a beautiful kind of reflective song. And Courtney John, kind of a roots reggae song. "Yes we are living in different boats but we're on the same ocean." From his Ecosystem album. So it speaks to just being all together. We're all together on the same ocean here.Pihkala: Yeah. There's several songs in your playlist which very strongly speak about the theme of journey. And also that we are in this together. But also, speaking about strange times. So in a way I thought that this "Strange Boat" song captures many of the elements. But I think, also from our contemporary reality. That's of course part of the anxiety, literally speaking, because there's so much uncertainty. And not all climate anxiety is strong anxiety. There's also just the uncertainty and thinking about what we should do and where we should try to sail with this company that we have. Doherty: Yeah, exactly. And there's the recent song from the group James, "Wherever It Takes Us." You know, and I know some of the members of that group were affected by Covid. And by fires and things. So the "Wherever It Takes Us" song is kind of a dizzying kind of anthemic song. But it also evokes someone really fleeing from a disaster and just finding some refuge in a car. Maybe from a fire. Or from smoke. And then this idea "We're all in wherever it takes us. We're all in it and it breaks and it shapes…

Full show notes at the publisher

Season 1, Episode 14: Climate Music Pt. 1: Panu’s Playlist Jul 08, 2022

Show notes

image credit | FPVmat A Season 1, Episode 14: Climate Music Pt. 1 Panu's MusicIt has been said: “Where words leave off, music begins.” The climate emergency challenges us to find words for so many feelings: Loneliness and connection, pain and loss, endurance, dedication, creativity and joy. In this two-episode series, Panu and Thomas share personal music playlists based on a simple assignment: “Music and climate emotions.” Thomas and Panu discuss the important role music plays in their coping and wellbeing, and examples of climate change-focused musical endeavors. Panu begins with a selection of 15 tracks from a variety of artists. He notes “this playlist is an emotional journey. The atmospheres … are more important than the lyrics, but some tracks have also been selected because of their lyrics. The playlist does follow roughly a process of crisis. There are fluctuations of sorrow and anger, but also of hope and beauty—as in our lives amidst the ecological crisis.” Music is a universal emotional language. Listen along and let us know about the music that inspires you to express your climate feelings. LinksPanu’s Playlist Panu’s blog post about his playlistMusic Declares Emergency, United KingdomStorm Warning, FinlandKEXP, Seattle, Washington, USAA music video of Moby’s “Why does my heart feel so bad” (2021 version) directed & animated by Steve Cutts The Weather Station’s Tamara Lindeman on climate grief Bearing witness to some recent Spotify controversiesTranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity. [music: “CC&H theme music”]Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.Thomas Doherty: Well hello. I'm Thomas Doherty.Panu Pihkala: And I'm Panu Pihkala.Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. A show for people around the globe who are thinking deeply about the personal side of climate change. Particularly their emotional responses and their feelings. And today this is a special episode. I have looked forward to. Panu and I are both musicophiles, music lovers of various genres. And today we're working on some episodes that capture some music that we love that also channels some of our feelings and impressions about global climate change. And so we're going to get into this a little bit. Panu, I know we've chatted at length about music and what it means to us. But tell me some thoughts you have about this climate change and music idea.Pihkala: Yeah. Greetings everyone. And very glad to be talking about music. That's a very important aspect of life for me. And in many ways: the written stuff, the melodies... They are also related to the daily flow of life. But in practice, listening to various kinds of music during the day is something I do. I also play a couple of instruments. Not in any professional manner, but that's also great for emotional release, actually. That wasn't the original reason I had when I started playing them, but later on I found that that's very important also in that regard. But how about you, Thomas? What's the role of music in your life?Doherty: Ah, similar to yourself, Panu. I have just always been—music has always been a close companion to me. You know, when I talk to people about emotional expression and using a feelings list. You know, describing how you're feeling and also how you might want to feel and the feelings you might want to cultivate, I think music is like that for me. It reflects back to me how I am feeling. Like the poetry and the tones and the rhythm and the melody can express things that I can't personally express. Puts into words and sounds what I'm feeling. But also like things that I reach towards. Things that boost me. And ways of being that I want to inhabit in my life. So music is both of those things for me. And it's just a part of my life. Yeah. And only recently in the last several years, I've taken up drumming. So I do some drumming on a vintage drum kit that's a little older than I am. And so it's fun. That was a rebirth of music in a whole other way for me: to be more of a musician myself. And I want to name - we've got a lot of things going on outside in the world: The day that we're recording we have violence in the Ukraine. And we have IPCC reports coming out. Supreme Court deliberations on momentous laws. So there's a lot going on in the world. And I think this music helps us to … channel our various impressions and things like that. Anything particular before we get started? Some orientation for our listeners about music in Finland? Or about this playlist that you're going to describe? Your playlist: how did that come together? Pihkala: Yes. We came up with the idea of each of us doing a playlist about the theme of the podcast. And mine is focused on climate emotions. Different kinds of them. And since I am coming from Finland and we have a lively music scene in Finland—actually so lively that we've been able to export some of our musicians to the states, for example, at least on temporary loans—I wanted to include, also, some Finnish songs into my playlist. I'm fully aware that not too many people internationally have learned the Finnish language, but there's the melody and the writing. There's also a plan for me to write a bit about this playlist and I'll explain something about the lyrics and the selection as we will also be doing live now.Doherty: Yeah. And I want to just shout out. There's obviously music as an expressive art. But we know there's musicians that are active in climate work and, of our listeners, there're musicians active in all kinds of things. I know there’s the Music Declares Emergency group in the UK that I've followed. That is really trying to work on sustainability in the music business. And I know there's the Storm Warning group in Finland that you've described. The musicians working for the climate. So I just want to shout out to those folks. And there's stations like KEXP in Seattle here near where I live in the United States that are very active in supporting the community and supporting people as we go through our challenges in the modern world. So there's a lot of levels to this. But we're really on the expressive side. And not the obvious expressive side. None of these are necessarily obviously about climate change directly, but they evoke certain things and that's the angle here. So yeah. Panu, why don't you launch into talking about your climate emotions playlist. And we'll see what it sounds and looks like. Pihkala: Definitely, Thomas. And for now we are using Spotify as a platform. We'll also share these playlists so that you can listen to them. And life has these strong ambiguities and ambivalences, which are sort of standard also in relation to the climate crisis. And also in relation to musical platforms such as Spotify. There's the controversy around different ethical issues and we're aware of that [e.g., podcasts spreading disinformation, artists leaving in protest]. But for now we are sort of accepting the ambivalence even though that's partly painful. And using Spotify as a platform. My playlist has 15 songs. There's a certain dramatic arc. Or actually a couple of them. It's possible to listen to just all of them but also from the beginning until song 11 or 12. That would be a sort of English arc. And then there's a couple of Finnish songs. And the last one, a long song by Mark Kozelek and Jimmy LeValle, ”Somehow the Wonder of Life Prevails”, is a sort of summary of many things in this playlist actually. So that's a sort of encore. An extra. A summary at the end. But the playlist also roughly follows a process of an emotional journey. Or a process of a crisis. Which, after-all, encountering the climate crisis is also: a kind of personal, psychological, social crisis. I'm not just using any, you know, black and white version of Elizabeth Kübler Ross's “Stages of grief” or anything like that. But there is a certain sequence going on from shock, and then variations of anger and sadness, before moving on with the process model towards light and also towards an increased ability to feel joy again. So it's not just gloomy songs, but there's several songs that speak to either climate sadness or climate anger.Doherty: Then I know in Finland they have a saying, like in the US we say play "Free Bird" or play "Stairway to Heaven," but they say “Soittakaa ‘Paranoid.’” So are you going to have Paranoid, Black Sabbath's song “Paranoid” on your playlist?Pihkala: That's well pronounced, Thomas. You're proceeding well with your Finnish lessons. And it is indeed true that in almost every live gig in Finland somebody shouts "Soittakaa Paranoid." Usually the bands don't do it. But there's a history here. Thomas knows that I have one Black Sabbath song in my playlist. And the sort of multitude of heavy metal, hard rock bands coming out of Finland is of course something that lots of folks know internationally. Many of these Finnish hard rock bands have a following in Japan, for example. I didn't go very heavily into that. I did have a phase in my teenage years when I listened to a lot of heavy rock and that sort of thing. But I'm actually starting with a song by Moby called "Why Does My Heart Feel So Bad." Which refers to this phenomena which has been quite common in history when people start to feel some kind of climate anxiety. That they are thinking "why do I actually feel so bad?" And it's not obvious often, especially if there's not a public discussion or recognition of this kind of discourses of emotional distress and motivation. One has to remember that climate anxiety is also about motivation to do something about the threats. So, “Why does my heart feel so bad” and the Reprise version (2021). Moby published a sort of album full of revised versions of many [his] key songs. And this one, also, has a quite striking music video actually. We'll put the link to the podcast website, also. Which has graphic depictions of ecological grief. Especially related to more than human animals. Moby is a famous animal rights and vegan activist, also. And those elements also show on the video. But that is followed by "Age of Reason" by Black Sabbath. A song which ends with a very fine electric guitar solo. Which is something that has helped me with many dark emotions. Perhaps that has links with my teenage years and the hard rock & heavy history. But the title of the song "Age of Reason" sort of plays with the "why does my heart feel so bad" element. So instead of an age of emotions we get an age of “reason”. And the lyrics of the song actually have points related to global crises. For example, if you listen to this part of the song [see Panu’s blog post for details] you'll notice that.Doherty: Yeah I know the lyrics - "politics, religion, love and money too. It's what the world was built for, but not for me and you." So yes. It's a classic social commentary coming out of Black Sabbath. I appreciate that. And then I noticed we both have The Weather Station. The Weather Station is the one artist that's made it to both of our lists.Pihkala: Yeah. Yeah that's a peculiar thing. And it ties in with this part in Black Sabbath's "Age of Reason" where there is "mass destruction hides the truth." This line. And then the Weather Station's name of the album is “Ignorance.” And that's of course a very interesting album related to climate emotions and anxiety. And Tamara Lindeman, the main artist behind The Weather Station, has been reading environmental psychologist Renée Lertzman's work. And it's interesting to have very high quality, popular music which is built also on understanding about climate psychology. And many of the lyrics are quite striking. I picked into my playlist a song called "Robber." Which is quite something. Also its music video. And one of the main themes of the song, at least for me, is the implicatedness which we have talked about in the podcast also. That we are all implicated whether we want or not. And then who's the robber and what are the means. [These are] Some of the questions that are being asked in the lyrics.Doherty: Yeah. That's beautiful. I got a chance to see Tamara and her band play here in Portland at Mississippi Studios just near my house just a week or so ago. So that's great that you have her there. On your playlist. Yeah. Go on Panu. This is really fun.Pihkala: Yeah. After the "Robber" the fourth song is a sort of classic rage and frustration song for many people from my generation: Smashing Pumpkins' "Bullet with Butterfly Wings." Which both stylistically and lyrically describes the frustration, you know, this famous line "despite all my rage I'm still just a rat in a cage." That speaks to many kinds of frustration. But for me, the song has always evoked images of frustration because of the social and political situation in the world, including ecological politics. And now I picked it here to depict frustration and anger and rage. Also feelings of helplessness because of the global ecological and climate crisis.Doherty: So "despite all my rage I'm still just a rat in a cage" right? That's the lyric there. Despite all my rage I'm still a rat in a cage. And that's I think important. I don't know there's something about being a teen or a young person and seeing someone just name out these feelings. Something that we can grasp onto. So I appreciate that. And I think our listeners are appreciating it as well. Yeah.Pihkala: Yeah. It's also linked to this wide topic of climate activism these days. And we know that many young people are very active in those movements. And that potential in teenage, being able to feel emotionally that moral outrage because of injustices. So that can be sometimes aggressive and even dangerous, but it's also very valuable in the world to be able to feel that moral outrage. But then my playlist goes more into the grief and sorrow territory. Although moral outrage is surfacing a couple of times. There's a very deep grief song by Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds called "Sun Forest." Nick Cave actually lost his teenaged son and has done lots of songs which partly deal with that and other subjects of grief and sorrow. From this sort of dark waters, the playlist starts to move a bit more towards the light. The grief process goes on. There's a young Finnish artist called Suad. And her song "The Burn" which is in English. [An] interesting song and a great album. After that there's a Depeche Mode cover by Tori Amos. One of my old favorites. So "Enjoy the Silence." Which is, of course, quite [a] classic song in pop music. For me it speaks of a kind of existential intensity. And that's one of the reasons why I included it here. "All I ever wanted, All I ever needed, is here in my arms." A very existential framing for me. And for me, personally, connected to, for example, spending time with the kids. Even amidst these eras of the ecological crisis.Doherty: Yeah. Go on.Pihkala: Then there's a very special song by the Icelandic post rock band Sigur Rós called Njósnavélin. Sorry for the Icelanders or Sigur Rós for the pronunciation. They sometimes use their own language. Not just Icelandic but [an] even…

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Season 1, Episode 13: COVID Feelings – Looking Back at 2021 Jun 24, 2022

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image credit | Önder Örtel Season 1, Episode 13 | COVID Feelings – Looking Back at 2021In this new episode, Thomas and Panu look back to a discussion they had in October 2021 about coping with the COVID-19 pandemic and how this compares with coping with climate change. As you listen, reflect on your own experiences of COVID-19 pandemic in the midst of the larger climate crisis. Back in 2021, it was clear these overlapping problems had pushed us to extend our capacity to be with our feelings amidst extreme hardship and challenge — now Panu and Thomas have been touched by COVID personally. In hindsight, Panu’s COVID and climate research and Thomas’s coping strategies ring true. Their wide-ranging 2021 dialog touched on wise use of media and avoiding “cyberchondria,” calibrating our anxiety alarm systems, restoring ourselves in the face of “macro worries,” and the importance of gratitude and embodying “love in action.” A key take away, then as now: Some suppression of emotions is quite useful and healthy in the midst of a crisis. The challenge is to be conscious of this process, and to come back to our emotional expression when we have the opportunity —for this is where we learn and grow.LinksCould corona-anxiety lead to positive climate action? — an interview of Panu about coronavirus anxiety, eco-anxiety, and education (2020)Panu’s 2020 lecture video in English about “coronavirus anxiety” and climate anxiety From Thomas’ 2020 Blog: Coping with COVID-19: Where Your Feelings Go, Your Thoughts Will FollowOn the Role of Emotional SuppressionForthcoming books with introductions by Panu: Eco-Anxiety and Planetary Hope: Experiencing the Twin Disasters of Covid-19 and Climate Change (Springer, September 2022)Eco-Anxiety and Pandemic Distress: Psychological Perspectives on Resilience and Interconnectedness (Oxford, November 2022)A recent study of coping with climate change and COVID-19: “Investigating similarities and differences in individual reactions to the COVID-19 pandemic and the climate crisis”, Geiger et al. 2021, A recent opinion from David Wallace Wells on US pandemic spending: “What if We Had Spent the Money on Climate?”TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity. [music: “CC&H theme music”]Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.2022 Prologue Thomas Doherty: Well, hi folks. This is Thomas. And I am sitting here speaking with Panu. It’s June 2022. And Panu and I have been listening to an episode that we recorded in October of 2021 on COVID. The COVID-19 pandemic — and our thoughts about it as it was developing at that time. Since then, many things have happened in the world with the pandemic. As we all know! And with other areas that we’ve been talking about, like climate change. Panu and his family have actually had COVID in that intervening time. My family and I also had COVID just actually a few weeks ago. Finally caught up with us here in Portland, Oregon. And I’m healthy but I’m still feeling a little bit of the after effects. So we thought we would revisit this episode now, in hindsight. And see how it feels to listen to it. And you all will shortly be able to listen to the episode yourself. But Panu, what was it like to listen back to what we were thinking about in October of 2021?Panu Pihkala: Yes. Hello, all listeners. So much is going on in these times that it actually felt quite long ago. Even though it’s last October. And we recorded many episodes during that Autumn. And then because of our two week scheduling of episodes, we are only now getting at some of the last ones we did. And on one hand we also wanted to wait and see where this Covid-19 pandemic was going. And then of course we ended up having it ourselves as Thomas mentioned. My family had it the second time. And now I also personally got it. I was four days completely out of business. But because of vaccinations, nothing too serious. But it took quite a long time to recover.And in Finland right at the time that the prevalent wave of Covid-19 had started to go down, then came the war in Ukraine. So that timing was very bad in that sense, also. That people were struck by another global stressor or macro-worry. Which came very close. So when I was listening to the episode where we discuss many emotional disturbances rising from global stressors. Of course the war in Ukraine this spring came very clearly into my mind. And that reminded me forcefully of the overlapping crises that we are living through. So it was very interesting to return to this episode from 9 months ago. Doherty: Yeah. I agree. It felt like a long time ago. And I think listeners probably have the same sense. So many things have happened. And the pandemic is still ongoing in some ways. In a more chronic way. So I think this is a challenge. I think it’s a challenge. [Another] colleague that I listened to the episode remarked that he had a hard time separating climate change and COVID because the two issues seem to be so similar. Not necessarily causally. Well, he actually believed they are causally related because deforestation drives partly climate change. And deforestation drove partly COVID in the sense of really these new viruses [are] coming out of, you know, places like these wet markets that are mixing different species and animals. And viruses that would have lived deep in the forest or the woods are now being exposed to humans in this cross pollinating. So, he saw a lot of overlap between both the basic system of our planet and also the responses of people to the problem. The denial. The science — denigrating science. The reactionary nature. The individualist responses where people didn't want to get vaccinated and all this other stuff. So, as we talked about in the episode I think, COVID is sort of a climate change-like phenomenon that was just accelerated. We saw a lot of these different factors. So it is really a learning. It’s a hard learning experience. It’s not necessarily a positive learning experience about the world. Because it exposed so much — so many problems.Pihkala: Yeah. Totally agree with you on that. And the terrible intersectional injustices, also. Both globally and regionally. And in the episode we quite a lot discuss the dynamics of eco-anxiety or climate anxiety as compared with Coronavirus anxiety. Or whatever we want to call it. And this came to my mind when listening to [your] colleagues' thoughts about the episode. And I mentioned that I wrote introductions to two books which discuss the COVID-19 crisis and the climate crisis. And now they are finally also starting to be published. That sometimes frustrating slowness of academic publishing. But now in late August and in November these two books should be out. And we’ll share info about that on our podcast website. One thing which is different is that because at least a strong wave of COVID-19 has now passed there’s a lot of people, including myself I have to say, who would just like to forget about COVID-19. At least for a long while. And this psychological dynamic, which on the one hand is pretty universal. There were some people writing about this at the onset of the COVID-19 crisis. But now it’s live. This sort of very human desire to, you know, let’s do something else for a while.Doherty: Yeah. Which is human. And so we want to honor that. When we get through a crisis we want to put it aside. We want to - we get fatigued. And we want to set it aside. And so I think we want things to disappear. So the focus with Covid was really people were over immersed. We talked in the episode this idea of cyberchondria. Where people are doing a lot of online research about medical and health issues. And so there was such a strong anxiety reaction from many people with COVID. Particularly in the early stages of the pandemic when it was so mortally dangerous. Now there’s a hope to set aside and put it away. So it is really a developmental process. Because it isn’t going away. It’s going to be a chronic thing in our societies. But in our story, we did come back to the basic coping of being aware of our news intake. Being in our home place. Finding the news in our own community, around our family and things like that. And also just recognizing all the hard work that we all have done with COVID. All the precautions. All the thinking. All the care, you know, for others. You know, we're surviving. Many of us are surviving. And we’re working hard. And, again, all the healthcare workers that have been working for years now in the COVID area. All the researchers. So, it’s so easy just to focus on the downside and not give ourselves, you know, the support and the compliment and the gratitude and the gratefulness of all the people. Even today that are still working. And I have many clients that are medical professionals. You know, that are still working and still in the emergency room. Still dealing with people. Even trying to find some compassion for folks that really couldn't get with the program in the sense of trying to support a societal-wide science-based empirical approach to dealing with this pandemic. So, we do need to sort of recharge our batteries. And have gratitude. And be able to focus on what’s positive in our lives. Pihkala: Yeah. Totally agree with that. And it would be good if we would have resources and motivation and energy to organize also some festivals of gratitude for all the work that various people have done in this regard. And it would be great to have a sort of people’s fest around, you know, surviving even though there was lots of trouble. And there may be waves again and so on. But that’s very human. The need for gratitude and remembering goodness. And this is something that we end up discussing at the latest part of the episode that you will soon hear.Doherty: Yeah. So, relistening to this episode is kind of a ritual. It’s a way to go back in time and to think about things. And, so, I invite the listeners to really use it as a reflective exercise for yourself to think about how your life has changed. And where you are now. And, you know, honor some of your losses. I would say here in Portland soon — I was approached by the Chief Resilience Officer for the City of Portland. And the disaster response team here in the city is having what they call “Heat Week.” And they’re having some events to commemorate the Heat Dome [deadly heat disaster] that happened one year ago. The major heat wave. And I’m going to be speaking on a panel around coping. But, I really think it’s such a great idea for them to have this memorial to this heat event. Partly for the first responders to really recognize all the work that they did. And also to keep the public aware that these things happen. It’s an exercise. It’s a ritual that I rarely see coming from a government. I know [in] our last episode we talked about the [eco-anxiety] work in Finland. Which is really, you know, proactive. But, so yes. There is something about cycling back and having these rituals to think about our lives and think about what we’ve learned. And that we’re still here. And we’re still going forward. So I invite people to listen and let us know what you think about us bringing back older episodes. This is climatechangeandhappiness.com. And thank you very much. Enjoy the episode. And we’ll keep bringing them to you. October 2021 EpisodeDoherty: Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty. Pihkala: And I'm Panu Pihkala. Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. The show for people around the globe who are thinking deeply about the personal side of climate change, particularly their emotions and their feelings about this. And we are speaking my morning and Panu's evening here on October 1, 2021. And Panu, I know, I'd like to get at some of the talks and things that you were doing this past week, we've got a lot of interesting things on our plates. But maybe I'll just jump in to some of the things you're up to. You've done some talks, but I know you've been writing about Coronavirus and eco-anxiety and getting into the emotions about these two issues and how they're similar and different. I know I have to be dragged into talking about [Coronavirus] just because my first emotions are reluctance and frustration and fatigue. But that's the way it goes with these emotions about these issues. It's only after I get into it that I start getting more interested and inspired and curious and grateful and all this sort of stuff. But tell me Panu what, you know. We'll just jump in, what's one of the pieces of this [Coronavirus] and eco- anxiety work you've been up to?Pihkala: Yeah, I think many people might react to climate emotions or eco-emotions, the way that you just described, you know, that sense of reluctance. You know, it's so difficult the whole business of the climate crisis. That, do I really have to think about it or think about the feelings related to that? Probably that's not the major issue for our listeners, because you have sort of chosen to listen to this, but. Doherty: Yeah, you've joined us welcome. Yeah.Pihkala: Yeah. Warmly welcome. We're very glad that you are there. But yeah, I've been doing introductions to two books, which deal with eco-anxiety, and so-called “Coronavirus Anxiety.” Now, this latter one also has many names. Even the same applies, of course, to eco-anxiety, also. There's COVID-19 Fear. And there's COVID Stress Syndrome, a framework developed by some other researchers. But all of these refer to the challenging emotions related to COVID-19. And I know that both I and Thomas have had our share of this and many people more, each one in her own way. What I'm doing in these introductions, [which are] sort of academic short articles, is that I'm exploring similarities, and then some differences. And when the COVID-19 pandemic started, I think a very sort of gut reaction of a lot of people was to try to apply what they know, and what they can do, to somehow encounter the new situation. And then there's me as an eco-anxiety researcher, trying to apply that in some constructive way to the situation. And that's one of the beginnings of this comparison. I sort of noticed there's [a] different timespan, of course, in relation to the COVID-19 threat, but then there's interesting similarities in the reactions. They are just more condensed in time. You know, when there's a growing sense of threat, but not certainty yet, people are like, hmm, there's something happening in China. And yeah, let's hope that it doesn't spread here. And some others are, you know, taking these signals more seriously, and then others try to ignore them. You know, Thomas, this sort of reminds me of many reactions to ecological crisis and climate crisis when it wasn't so widely known.Doherty: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, one thing I found, I was able to read Panu's chapter on this. And I really appreciated you comparing some of the timelines of, of, you know, how people cope with COVID and nations cope with COVID and how we have, you know, coped with climate change. And again, that, you know, we've been dealing with people in power have known about climate issues for, you know, since you and I have been alive. You know, and longer still really since the 1950s-60s. You know, people were clued into this, you know, so-called experts, you know. Expert advisors to leaders were. But yeah, you know, again, I think, keeping it real in terms of our own experience, you know. Yes, there's so much for me bound up in COVID. And, you know, it was sort of a, I think there's a lot of suppression of emotions that happen during a dis…

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Season 1, Episode 12: Eco-Anxiety in Finland and the Shouting Man Jun 10, 2022

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image credit | Shane Rounce Season 1, Episode 12 | Eco-Anxiety in Finland and the Shouting ManIn this episode, Panu and Thomas are joined by Finnish therapists Sanni Saarimäki and Taneli Saari to discuss the Finnish “scene” around eco-anxiety and climate emotions. After discussing their own paths towards working with climate emotions, Sanni and Taneli introduce both the Finnish National Project and Tunne ry (an organization focusing on eco-emotions), whose work is apparently the first such project funded at a national level in the world. Together the four discuss the Shouting Man project as a unique and cathartic way to express climate emotions and also explore the role of therapy methods such as Acceptance and Commitment Therapy in a climate and environmental context. LinksTunne ryAbout the National Project in English and More widelyThe Shouting Man ProjectMIELI - Mental Health FinlandClimate Anxiety report by Panu (2019), published by MIELI Nyyti ry - Mental Wellbeing for StudentsAcceptance and Commitment TherapySeason 1, Episode 4: Acceptance, Commitment and Climate with Guest Karine St. JeanPrimal Scream Therapy - Dr. Arthur JanovEdvard Munch’s The ScreamIn Popular CultureFrom a Meteorological and Climate Perspective A Young Climate Activist’s Perspective on The Scream“The Waking Up Syndrome” essay (2008) by Sarah Edwards & Linda Buzzell TranscriptSeason 1, Episode 12: Eco-Anxiety in Finland and the Shouting ManTranscript edited for clarity and brevity. [music: “CC&H theme music”]Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.Thomas Doherty: Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty. Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. Doherty: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast, the show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change. And the personal side of climate change and other environmental issues. And we have two special guests joining Panu and I today from Finland: And I'll let them introduce themselves.Sanni Saarimäki: Hey. Hi everybody. My name is Sanni Saarimäki.Taneli Saari: Hi everyone. I'm Taneli Saari.Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Taneli and Sanni. Lämpimästi tervetuloa, in Finnish. It's a great joy to have you join us. And Thomas has some roots in Europe. But, of course, his family has been living in North America for a while. So we want to engage in European conversation. And, of course, we three, Sanni, Taneli and I, know each other from many years back. Finland is a rather small country. Five million people. With quite [a] large land area compared to many other European countries. The public discussion on eco-emotions and climate anxiety and other issues related to that [in Finland] really gained more prominence in 2017. And we three have been in many ways connected with that public discussion. And we have sometimes been running workshops together, but we don't work together on a day to day basis. So that's some of the background. And there's a lot to talk about [regarding] various things going on in Finland, and your own journeys towards this topic. And that's something that we'd like to begin with. So could you tell us something about how you end[ed] up [in] this area of eco-emotions and the rest of the stuff? And could you, Sanni, start, for example?Saarimäki: Yeah, sure. Thank you. And thank you for inviting us to speak with you today. So I am a psychologist from my educational background, and also a history teacher. But I haven't done that in many years. My journey towards eco-emotions started from my own experience. My own personal experience. I had been working in a University of Applied Sciences as a study psychologist for some time. And that's where I also met Taneli. And then after those couple of years I was working there, my contract ended. And it was a bit of a surprise for me. It sometimes happens that [you] may have to change jobs and things like that. But for me, it was a very huge experience to be unemployed. And I have been - before I had been thinking that my role in this whole global situation is to be there for the students. And help them to deal with their own emotions. And then find their own place and go and save the world. So that would be my thing. And I didn't have that anymore at that point when I became unemployed. And it was a very rainy summer here in Finland. And all I had was time. And I was reading a lot about climate change and other environmental issues when I had too much time. And too much time to also realize how serious the situation was with the climate change. And kind of that eco-anxiety I had hidden inside me somewhere, came through the surface. And at the same time when I was experiencing this eco-anxiety myself, I also thought of a few of my students. They did not come to the study psychologist to talk about climate anxiety, no, but also underneath their situations, there might be climate anxiety or other global threats that they are thinking [about] how that's gonna affect the future. I had a lot of time and I was thinking: where do they then go if I, as a psychologist, don't know where to go and who to talk to about these issues? So where would they go? And then I was lucky to start a new job as a study psychologist, once again. Now in Aalto University. And I thought first that the eco-anxiety would go away and I would continue my normal job. I would be working as a psychologist once again with stress and motivation issues and things like that. But the eco-anxiety did not go away. It was there. I was also lucky [at] that point that my colleagues, many colleagues, said that they don't know what to do with this, but if I want to do something with this, they would support me. They would try to help me to do something. And they said, the students are—actually it's hidden there, but they do have these same [kinds of] fears and emotions. And there is not much yet that we could do, but let's experience this together and do something. And I started to pilot climate anxiety groups. And at the same time, I was keeping contact with Taneli. And he was one of those persons who would actually understand that I'm not—my climate anxiety is not something as a cover. It's a real thing. It's not covering my personal issues or anything like that. But it's there. And we also decided that when these pilot groups were doing quite well in Aalto, that maybe something similar would be needed outside. And we then founded Tunne. Our organization. And now it's been—this is now our fifth year. Yeah. And along the way, I also got a lot of help from Panu. Especially at the beginning, when I was thinking [about] where to go and who to contact. And there was this article [in Helsingin Sanomat] about Panu's book. And one of my colleagues said that hey, you should write to Panu and ask. Yeah, it has been—then the years have gone by quite fast.Pihkala: They have indeed. Thanks so much, Sanni, for sharing about this journey. And it's been a transformative journey I'd say. Listening to you and knowing this. And this tunne word means emotion in [the] Finnish language. In the podcast, we've often spoken about different languages. And so we use that word in Finnish, both for emotion and feeling. We don't do any separation for that in the Finnish language. And this transformative journey of Sanni's and Taneli's and others then led to an NGO organization which focuses really on eco-emotions and climate emotions. But Thomas, you have some common things in your work. You know, listening to people. Even though you don't work at a university anymore. Or [as] a study psychologist. But you see people who have issues that they talk about. And issues that are underneath what they talk about. So what resonates with you when listening to Sanni's story this far?Doherty: Well, yeah. I think Sanni's story is very universal. I can identify with it. People that really had these—again, it starts personally. There's this idea of having an environmental waking up and awareness. And it's troubling. And [it's been called] a “Waking up Syndrome”. And then people want to do something about it. And, you know, I know well the challenge of getting this done in the institution. In the US, we would think about [it] in our university counseling centers. And psychologists and counselors are working with students in universities. Yeah, so I've actually done that work. And I could see that. And it really does take some people that just believe in the idea to get it started. And then once you scratch the surface, many people identify with it. It is really under the surface, like you say. No, I think it's great. And it just takes a pathfinder. It takes someone to start. And then people follow along. So yeah. I think many listeners can identify with Sanni.Pihkala: Yeah, thanks Thomas for reflecting on that. And now, in addition to this NGO where Taneli is also being very active—and I'll very soon ask Taneli about his journey—then there's the National Finnish Social and Health Sector Eco-Anxiety Project. And, again, we all three have been involved in that [on] the advisory board and in various strategic positions. But Taneli has actually been working there. And Sanni is the chairperson of Tunne NGO. Which is one of the three organizations working for the National Project. So just for the listeners, there's several organizational manifestations of this work that we are talking about. But please Taneli, you've been listening to us patiently, as suits your character strengths. But could you share something about your journey?Saari: Yeah. Thanks Panu. And hi everyone. It's nice to be on this podcast. I'm a longtime listener and a first time guest. Well, I have a professional background in social services and [a] degree as well. And I have had this kind of thirst to experience a lot of different fields. And my first job was - I started as a kindergarten teacher. And moved from there to Child Protective Services. And I was still doing that job part time when I was studying. And I was in my early 20s, and faced some really serious situations of my clients. Like sexual abuse. And that kind of stuff that really stops you and makes you think about what we're doing to each other. To ourselves. And from there, the years went on. And I've worked with people with substance abuse problems. Even prisoners. Then with families, again. With children and their parents and so on. And, like Sanni said, it was in 2014 when I also switched to this University of Applied Sciences. And my job title was a Study Wellbeing Advisor. And both Sanni and me—students came to see us one-on-one. And then we guided these different peer groups. For example, tension and a fear of performing in front of people was one of those topics. And we had these really interesting coffee break discussions. I have to thank Sanni for those. It was people who believed what you're saying and thinking. It is really meaningful. Yeah. So we had these coffee break talks. And talked about what kind of services our social and healthcare sector should provide in the future. And we had this discussion back then. Like seven [or] eight years ago. That there's no place to go if you want to talk [about] how much climate change or other aspects of environmental crisis[es] affect you. And, in that sense, we were kind of right. And also, that's what Panu's book in 2017 [Päin helvettiä? Ympäristöahdistus ja toivo] mentioned. And I moved to this NGO side of [the] work later on. And then I had some experience [about] how to run an association and what is needed. And, like Sanni told, then we decided that we should form this Tunne. And we have started doing these workshops and different kinds of trainings since 2018. And that year, also, from our perspective, was a turning point. The IPCC report that was about the 1.5 Celsius degree warming made a real big splash. And, for example, the media and public awareness exploded after that. And also the demand for our workshops and what we do. People were really interested after that. And luckily—we did this work in our free time as 100% volunteers. We didn't raise a penny or didn't get paid at all. And didn't want to. And from [the] start of 2020, we got this grant from this funding center for social and health organizations in Finland. And that funding center has a background in - or all the grants that they give to organizations, they are signed by the Ministry of Social Affairs and Health. So that's a nationally funded project. And there we have three different organizations. Mieli, which is, I think, the oldest mental health organization in the world, as well as in Finland. And they are in charge of the project management. And then there are two like specialist organizations. We from Tunne ry. And then Nyyti ry which focuses on students' wellbeing. And so there are three specialists who work [on] that project. And we have three areas which we focus on. One is we provide support for people who experience environmental or eco-emotions. We organize these workshops, and these peer groups from three to five times. Then we have these like open webinars and so on. Panu is a frequent speaker in those. And then, besides providing support and places for people who are, for example, eco-anxious, then we also train professionals. And people who meet people who go through eco-emotions. That means that we have trained teachers, therapists, social and health sector workers, [and] people who work with young people, for example. That's one of the key findings that we have seen in the past three years now. That people who meet people, who go through these things, they are really interested now [in] hearing more about what we know. So professionals are waking up to the topic more and more. I think that even in one year, I've seen a slight increase in the amount of interest. Yeah. And the third area is then we tried to raise the public awareness about the mental health aspects of climate change and [the] environmental crisis, and so on.Pihkala: Thanks Taneli for sharing all that. I think that the third area—raising awareness both among the general public and also amongst various professionals—has led to some of the developments that you mentioned. And this is an example also of the fact that regardless of what your background is, there is something that you can do. This is, of course, different for many people depending on the context. But here we also have a person from the Social Sciences and Social Work. One person from the study psychology field. And one person who did a dissertation of environmental theology way back, for example. So it's an interesting mix of people. And there's something for each one to do. But what about you, Thomas? What came to your mind when listening to the story that Taneli shared with us? Doherty: Well, I'm just really impressed. I think listeners can—I'm imagining if there's listeners that are in a policy position, or in some sort of institutional position, it's neat to see the story. And how this actually came about. So it was kind of, like a lot of these things, it's organic. Right? You know, it takes some personal relationships. And personal interests and people being honest about their own eco-anxiety and environmental concerns. It seems to me part of this work is we're working in the system. And then we're working outside the system, right? And we need to have that partnership. So the new ideas might come in from outside the system, but we…

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Season 1, Episode 11: Bearing Witness to the Acts of Wynn Bruce and David Buckel May 27, 2022

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image credit | Oliver Hotakainen Season 1, Episode 11 | Bearing Witness to the Acts of Wynn Bruce and David BuckelReflecting on the recent self-immolation of climate activist Wynn Bruce as a protest and call to action in the face of climate change, Thomas and Panu discuss the importance of bearing witness to emotionally difficult events. In the teaching of systems thinker, Joanna Macy, they acknowledge both the difficulty and value of staying open to the world even when it is painful and seemingly impossible. Inspired by the writings of Daniel Sherrell in his book Warmth, they reflect on the importance of not reducing all of our climate feelings “into their utility for the movement,” but rather allowing some to exist solely unto themselves. LinksComing Back to Life: Practices to Reconnect Our Lives, Our World, Joanna Macy & Molly Young Brown / The Work That ReconnectsWarmth, Daniel SherrellBrueghel Children’s GamesZen PeacemakersTerror Management Theory and Climate Change Viktor Frankl timelineWiley 2019 The Site of an Environmentalist’s Deadly Act of ProtestSchrimer 2021 Post-dramatic activism: “Whether it is the fleeting image of a better world or the stark illustration of a world in dire need of change, activist performance is about allowing, or forcing, its audience to bear witness to one particular vision of the world.”Talkoot is a Finnish expression for a gathering of friends and neighbors organized to accomplish a task. Among many visions of communal work worldwide.Panu’s suggestions of statements for therapists to use: “You know, this feels awful, but I want to stay with this with you.” “I don't exactly know how to react to this, except I'm convinced that life has meaning and should not be thrown away, even for as important a purpose as this.”TranscriptSeason 1, Episode 11: Bearing Witness to the Acts of Wynn Bruce and David BuckelTranscript edited for clarity and brevity. [music: “CC&H theme music”]Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.Thomas Doherty: Well, hello. I am Thomas Doherty. Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. A show for people around the world [who are] thinking and feeling deeply about climate change—personal reactions and how climate change affects them in their daily life with their family and with their friends. And Panu, you know, we've been talking about this general theme of being open to the world. You know, “open heart, open mind.” And taking in the world. Not shutting down. Closing down. And so we were going to talk about this in general. And recently there's been a lot of troubling—even more than typical—troubling news. You know, here when we're recording, about politics and war. And, you know, recently a person ended their life by burning themselves to death as a protest regarding climate change. Wynn Bruce. And it's been in the news slightly. And it brought up a similar event that happened a few years ago with David Buckel in New York City. And so we were really wrestling about whether we should talk about this. This climate, what I would, call self-sacrifice. The self-immolation. And we decided to move forward into talking about [it] because I think we both think it's important. So, Panu, what's the first thing that comes into your mind when we're thinking about this? Or where do you begin with this kind of thing?Pihkala: Yeah. You mentioned, Thomas, [that] it's very disturbing and difficult. And, in my mind, it links with many things. One thing is my early history. In my previous work life, I sometimes met people who had very dark thoughts and sometimes also suicidal ideation. But then, again, we have to remember that there are many issues at play here. There's very determined acts of self-sacrifice. Or thinking about things like self-immolation as a strategy for making some kind of impact in climate matters. And then there is the topic of having dark moods or feelings of meaninglessness and that kind of territory. And in general, as you said, this links strongly also in my mind with the difficulty and importance of staying open to the world. That's something that I've been engaging with for a long time. And Joanna Macy's work has been important for me in that regard. And also local[ly] several others. And then, finally, the very also complex topic of relations between death awareness and environmental awareness. And there's a different viewpoint into that, also including the so-called Terror Management Theory. So there's a lot. And we'll be unpacking at least some of these in this discussion, but I wanted to bring several elements onto the table now.Doherty: Yeah. And I think we're going to kind of move between some philosophy and psychology and just some human experience here. As I was telling Panu earlier, my thoughts about the death of Wynn Bruce or David Buckel or others (perhaps we don't know about those who have done similar actions). If Panu was walking with his family. Or if I was walking with my daughter in our town and we saw someone who had done this act. Who had burned themselves to death. And then we didn't talk about it. We pretended that it didn't happen. Or we didn't see it. That would be really strange. And if we live in a world where we don't stop and feel these things. Because I don't think that's the world that we want. And so I think we do need to be open to this. We were talking about social justice. And I think some of the philosophizing about this is, you know, when white people do this kind of; white privileged people do this kind of stuff, you know, we don't know how to understand it. But obviously people die every day. And people have been burned in climate related disasters and in wars all the time. And so when brown lives, black and brown lives are lost, sometimes this doesn't get the same kind of press. So we want to keep all this kind of stuff. And I think practically therapists and mental health people are unsure how to bring this up. Because well, first of all, they're not trained to think about this. And then also, there's a concern that there might be some sort of contagion effect. Where more people will do this. And we don't want to encourage this kind of behavior. And that's a realistic concern, as well. And so we need to name that. But I don't know that there's really evidence of so-called copycat activities with this kind of thing for various reasons. It's a really extreme act to do. It would take a lot for anyone to do this. There's another larger conversation about politics and political action and self sacrifice in terms of hunger strikes and various things. You know, I know a little bit about the Irish hunger strikers in Northern Ireland and things like that. So there's a lot of — [I] suggest for the listeners, like, you know, we're making this up as we go as well. We are just thinking through this ourselves. But I think it's important to be open. And to be candid with our feelings. I think, Panu, what you were talking about with me about work from Joanna Macy and Molly Young Brown. Coming Back to Life. Their book. But, you know, the costs of not being open to the world. And what causes not being open to the world. Do you think that would be helpful to talk about a little bit right now? Just to give us some context.Pihkala: Yeah, I think so. And for those of you who haven't heard of Joanna Macy, she's a systems thinker and a social environmental activist who has been pioneering many methods for encountering difficult emotions related to the state of the world. So already in the 1980s, related to the threat of nuclear war and fallout. And later, even more explicitly with the ecological crises. She is still alive while we are recording this. She’s of great age and considered a sage in this territory by many. And together with colleagues such as Molly Young Brown, she has been developing what they call The Work That Reconnects. A method of trying to stay open to the state of the world and to increase people's resources. So: Coming from gratitude; Honoring our pain for the world; Seeing with new eyes; and Going forth. These are the names of the rough steps. And now the second step, Honoring our pain for the world, is very much related to what we are talking about today. And the sort of widest manual to their work is this book Coming Back to Life as a second edition from roughly 2014. And it has an excellent chapter number two, which discusses the various reasons why it's very understandable that people want to block out at least some aspects of reality. Because it can be so painful. It can cause some social disturbance. And people are thinking about—do I really want to make changes in my social settings, for example? How will others think of me if I start to engage with these issues more? So, many different kinds of costs. And then, also [in the book], a great discussion about the various impacts. Impeded cognitive functioning is one. So if we are not as well in touch with our emotions, that also has an effect on our cognition. But then also, the impact on imagination, for example. Our connection with the world. They go on to discuss some pretty deep stuff related to our connections with the world. And that's, of course, also strongly related to the challenges of inviting people to stay open to the ecological crisis and environmental activism. So if people know that that's going to bring some pain. Because you see others suffering and know much about the troubles in the world, so is there also something to gain? And I think this idea of when you are able to stay open to the world, it will be more painful than numbing, but it will also be a much richer life, when you can actually feel the joy and feel the sadness and other other emotions. And of course, it's easier to contribute for the common good, if you are able to stay open to the reality. But it's not easy. And they are very realistic about that. But I know, Thomas, that you have been engaging with their work and the work of other ecopsychologists in this regard for a long time. So well, what's your thoughts about that?Doherty: Well, yeah. I think this is just, Panu, is just a great example. People have been working on this for years. And like I'm always coming back to this idea. We're not alone. And there's people doing this. And I think the loneliness is one of the worst problems here. Trying to cope with this alone. Whereas coping with the community is different. And I think it's really great. Even though I know this work, it's helpful for me to be reminded, again, that there are costs of not opening to the world. Like we don't think as well. We're not creative. We're kind of shut down. Our imagination is limited. Even in our body, you know, it's kind of like a learned helplessness kind of thing. And, you know, we're kind of numb. And then, you know, when someone's numb, you can poke at them and hit them. And they don't feel it because they're numb. And so that numbing is a self protective, you know, strategy. But it isn't helpful for social change, or working in a system. So we're more vibrant. We're more passionate. You know, we have more fire if we're more open. And so I think, again, it's sort of like, how open do we get? Then that's the other side of it. It’s like, if we're too open, then we're flooded and overwhelmed and angry and dangerous. And things like that. So it's all of us finding our kind of right level of openness at any given time. And, you know, getting over like you say, the major blocks. Like is it guilt? Is it grief? You know, is it inadequacy? Some of these blocks, like, why we can't. I don't want to talk about this person that ended their life regarding climate change, because I'm not doing enough myself. And I don't have anything to say. Or their action is a reproach to me, you know. But I think that's something—that's a block to move forward to. I don't think that's what they're doing these acts for. I don't really know what's in people's minds, but I think they want people to come together. And so I think having a compassionate place is a good start.Pihkala: Yeah, definitely. And as much as I know about Wynn Bruce and David Buckel, they wanted to encourage people to take mass level civil action for climate justice. And for mitigation of climate change. So they were not wanting people to get desperate and do more self immolation. But they really wanted to wake people up even more to the great urgency of the crisis. And then there's lots of [published] discussion, especially now, of course, of the Buckel case, because it's been a couple of years [since it], and people have had more time to write in-depth writings about it. But increasingly, I think, also related to this very recent case. And we will put some links to the podcast website, for those of you who want to take a deeper look. And it's quite a complicated issue. And then in these cases, I'm speaking, especially with the Buckel case, they resist any binary categorization. So I think it's quite complex indeed. And when I was speaking about the Joanna Macy stuff earlier, I think that's closely related to the difficulty that many people are having with connecting to these issues. Because the topic[s] of the ecological crisis and climate crisis is already threatening enough. And then when it becomes linked with death and self immolation, it can simply become too much for many people. Including, I presume, many therapists. But as you say Thomas, it would be totally weird if we wouldn't discuss this. And that would turn into [a] quite absurd situation. This, of course, is also the opening of a great book by Daniel Sherrell called Warmth. Doherty: Yeah. Pihkala: That's a book that we both have been engaging with. And it starts exactly with this absurdity of knowing about the self immolation of David Buckel. And then the author sees personally that life is going on as normal in the park. Even, you know, right after these events. Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, for therapists and for people. You know, there's these statements. You know, Panu would come up with some actual statements for therapists to use: “You know, this feels awful, but I want to stay with this with you.” [Or:] “I don't exactly know how to react to this, except I'm convinced that life has meaning and should not be thrown away, even for as important a purpose as this.” And so that, you know, we get to say what our belief is about life and what we think. But we don't have to have all the answers. It is, yeah, the Sherrell book, Warmth, is a great book. It's a great example of a very deeply written, you know, self examination of climate grief and climate despair. I like some of the things that Sherrell talks about. He talks about this idea of a Bruegel painting. Like one of these old paintings that's a broad tapestry of life in a town. And you see all the different people. And you have to spend a lot of time looking at the painting to see all the different figures and what they're doing. And there's a lot in the painting that you don't see unless you look very closely at all the sections of it. And so, you know, Bruegel has a painting called Children's Games. Which is just a broad, you know, community square with all the differen…

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Season 1, Episode 10: In Praise of Cynicism May 13, 2022

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image credit | Intricate Explorer Season 1, Episode 10 | In Praise of CynicismDark times for dark emotions. In this episode recorded near the end of 2021, Thomas and Panu open the door to the feeling of cynicism and its “friends” apathy, shame, melancholia, “learned helplessness” disillusionment, and misanthropy [dislike of humankind]. They discuss how to be compassionate to ourselves and accept these feelings as inevitable reactions during our current political and environmental crises. They explore cynicism as a way of being realistic about the world, as a protective feeling or style, and from a philosophical perspective as living well in difficult situations, eschewing the trappings of the world and seeking one’s own path of virtue. Thomas discusses how his misanthropy tends to be directed at unjust human systems rather than human nature. Panu highlights a number of thinkers and artists that offer ways to understand and work through our doubt and despair. Is it possible to discover a “post-cynical” position in our deep adaptation to climate change? What is the role of self-sacrifice as an option? Listen in and see what you feel and think. Note: This episode is a lead-in to a frank discussion of the actions of Wynn Bruce and David Buckel coming in Episode 11. LinksMieli maassa? : Ympäristötunteet, Panu Pihkala (in English, see the article on Taxonomy of Climate Emotions)Mika Waltari: The Egyptian Joanna Macy : Working Through Environmental DespairRenee Lertzman: Environmental Melancholia: Psychoanalytic dimensions of engagementKari Norgaard (on socialized denial of climate issues): Living in Denial Learned Helpless ResearchRessentimentNadine Andrews and Paul Hoggett: Facing up to Ecological Crisis: A Psychosocial Perspective from Climate PsychologyPentti Linkola: Can Life Prevail?Deep Adaptation / Dark MountainCCH Episodes with Jade Sasser and Britt WrayKrzysztof Kieślowski: Three Colors: WhiteTim Lomas: The Positive Power of Negative Emotions Theodore Roethke Poem: In a Dark TimeTranscriptSeason 1, Episode 10: In Praise of CynicismTranscript edited for clarity and brevity. [music: “CC&H theme music”]Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.Thomas Doherty: Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty. Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. The show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change, and the personal side of climate change: Emotional responses and feelings and how this lands in our hearts and in our bodies as well as in our minds. And for Panu and I, we're recording this [episode] toward the solstice time of the year [2021] in the northern hemisphere. Although you might be listening to this later. Anyway, Panu, … this is an episode I'm looking forward to. This cynicism episode. “In praise of cynicism.” I tend to joke that I am a cynical person. And I know many of our listeners might consider themselves to be cynical in various ways too. And so I wanted to surface this in our discussion about climate feelings and climate emotions. So I want to open the door and have cynicism and all its cousins and friends — apathy and misanthropy — We're going to have a party with these feelings. And I'm gonna bring them in and talk about them a little bit. In a compassionate and in a healthy way, I think. So, I know you and I've chatted a little bit, but where does this go for you Panu?Pihkala: Yeah. That's very suitable for the season. You know, [a] dark feelings special episode. It's been very dark physically in Helsinki, during the last week. So [I’m] really looking forward for the solstice. And this ties in with my work, also. In the Finnish book about eco emotions that I published in 2019, I have a section about these sorts of dark and malevolent feelings. And that's something that I very rarely talk about because it's such a topic that usually nobody wants to really talk about it. So this gives an opportunity for that.Doherty: Yeah. And listeners can help with different words in languages outside of English for cynicism and misanthropy. Because I know, there are concepts in many cultures. All of my searching seemed to lead me back to the Greeks, of course. The Greeks and the Romans. You know, so we've got cynicism as a general belief that people are selfish and dishonest. You know, is a common way of thinking about it. And, you know, I think sometimes that's being realistic about the world. And being open to this as [an] expectable response given how things are going in the world. But of course, there's that deeper philosophical piece about living well in difficult situations. And eschewing the trappings of the world. And going toward virtue. So within cynicism, there's this more virtuous core. So we might talk about that. But yeah, what comes up for you personally? What concepts or personal feelings come up around, cynicism, and some of these feelings?Pihkala: Yeah. that's kyynisyys in [the] Finnish language. So that also comes from the Greek. And it reminds me of the philosophical stuff, also. And some of the great novels, both in world literature and in Finnish literature. We have a very prominent 20th century writer called Mika Waltari. Many of his historical novels have actually been translated into many languages, including English. The Egyptian [was] made into a Hollywood movie even way back in the 50s, or 60s. And those are interesting because he read a lot of philosophy. And it's often characters who really go out and see the world and encounter all kinds of suffering and joy and all the shades of life. And there's deep engagement with cynicism in those books. And I read a lot of them during my high school years. So that's been [a] foundational influence for me. But in the ecological crisis and climate crisis, of course, this brings up the whole question about despair, for example. And so-called apathy. Is it really apathy? Or is it masking deep suffering that people are experiencing? Joanna Macy the ecopsychologist has written about this. And Renée Lertzman, also, with her concept of “environmental melancholia”. I think it's a really important topic. And also a complex one. So what one sees on people's faces and bodies may not be the whole set of emotions that they have.Doherty: Yeah, so let's just flag some of these things for now. Or for later. You know, this idea of - Kari Norgaard is another person that's written around socialized denial. Renée Lertzman and Joanna Macy. So yeah, there's the idea that there's more under the surface. There's a potential “learned helplessness” phenomenon – where people become apathetic because they have no options. And it's a poignant story, the learned helplessness research, where they'd have, you know, dogs, you know, in some sort of laboratory where they would get shocks. And they wouldn't be able to resist and leave from getting the shocks. And so they would eventually just lay down and endure the shocks, you know. And that's where that, you know, that's a kind of barbaric kind of research that I hope isn't happening right now. But I think we feel that way. I think sometimes. And I know some of our listeners do. I know I have felt that way sometimes. You just kind of lay down and endure. So anyway, the point being is there's a lot under this. So it isn't necessarily what we think. I have to say I embrace, I mean, I feel like I was born cynical. Or I grew up cynical. I think about where I was from, Buffalo, New York. Which is kind of what we call in the US, a “rust belt” kind of town. You know, an old city that was really great in the past. And when I grew up in the 70s and 80s, it was pretty dark times for that city. There was not much economic growth. They had not yet learned to celebrate their architecture and all their history. So it was just a lot of rusting kind of buildings and hulks of old steel plants and things like that. My family background is working class. And so I think, you know, one of the catchphrases was “City of No Illusions” is what they call Buffalo. So I had that coming in. And then of course, I had my own family dynamics. You know, my parents had a tough marriage. And [it] wasn't very happy. And we had alcoholism and stuff like that. So I was kind of primed for a cynical outlook. So in many ways, as an adult, I've kind of learned to be “post-cynical” a bit. You know, like, I'm still alive. So what's left. I might as well try some other things. And then growing up in the 80s, you know, right in the Reagan Era. And the Sex Pistols were teaching me, that there was “no future,” you know. So I had a very much of that kind of 1984 thing growing up. So anyway, every generation has their kind of their stamp. And then our personal family, you know. And even our psychology and our neuropsychology. We've talked a little bit about seasonal depression, and you know, having low mood during the season. So -Pihkala: Yeah, that's interesting to hear, Thomas. Thanks for sharing. I didn't know the Buffalo part. And I can imagine the sort of disillusionment. That's one emotion word that I've been exploring in relation to the ecological crisis also. And we've often been including some special words of the day. And perhaps the old word of “ressentiment.” Resentment almost, but written slightly different[ly]. That could be one because in many uses that refers to periods where people think that there is not going to be progress. And the past appears as more golden than the future. And it's difficult during those times. The concept of ressentiment is linked with 1920s Germany, for example. And then it can of course, give rise to many sorts of social troubles that happened during that time. Some of the psychosocial climate scholars. I don't want to get too academic here. But Nadine Andrews and Paul Hoggett have been writing about this threat in relation to the climate crisis. Because if it starts to happen that there's more and more economic troubles also, because of the pressures given by the limits imposed on us by the more than human world, it may be that these feelings of disillusionment start to spread in many places. And I think there are already signs of that in many areas. Doherty: Yeah. I'm searching for the title of a book I saw in MIT Press. It was - I'll see if I can find it. It was roughly about “how bad can it get,” I think that is the title. So looming around our feeling discussion is a context of this ressentiment and how it informed past cultures. Certainly in the US there's a strong strain of this. And so we've got a context to our feelings. They don't exist in isolation from the world. So there's that ecology. We are part of the world. There is that inter being. So, you know, again, underneath this, there are these kind of beautiful things that we're all connected. And, you know, these are real, real feelings. Yeah. And, you know, there's different species of this. You know, I was getting into the whole idea of misanthropy and sort of either hating humans or negative views toward humans. And I think we need to air that a little bit. That's kind of a taboo-ish topic in some areas. But, you know, it's again, how could we not have some of this, you know, concerns about human behavior, and quote, unquote, "human nature". But I think personally, it's really more around the human systems that we have created that are not [just]. None of the systems that we have came from magic. They all were created by people and they can be changed. So I think when we get into a bad system, that's where it brings out the worst in people. So my misanthropy is around human systems personally. And some of the things that we create. That's how I come at it versus internal to the people. Because I know there's good people. I've met good people, even in bad systems. Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. I very much resonate with that. And, of course, there's a certain path dependency here. That if you and your group go down a certain road far enough, then it easily becomes sort of self-enhancing. But I really also emphasize this structural dimension around these issues. And related to so-called environmentalism, which is, of course, a tricky thing that in public discourse, it sometimes gets portrayed as an identity group. Even though a vast number of people [are] interested about what we call environmental values. But the discourse about whether environmentalists are misanthropic that's, of course, a very old or discourse also. And it's been quite prominent in Finland, too. We have some special figures in Finnish environmentalism who have sometimes had quite misanthropic views. And then it's been lots of debates and so on. One interesting thing about that is that sometimes in the behind is such strong caring and love for the more-than-human world, that it then becomes so difficult to see those places and creatures damaged or destroyed. And that sort of then leads to some misanthropic comments which may not be completely logical, either. That was also seen in some of these Finnish environmentalists, like Pentti Linkola, for example. So then bitterness and being hurt are some of the emotional tones behind something some misanthropic environmentalist comments, I think.Doherty: Yeah. And I think we need to open our hearts and bring this stuff in. I know. I think it's a developmental task for us to go through these feelings. I know when I was younger, I wrestled with all of these things too. And is it worth living? Is it worth adding to the problems? I was talking to a young man recently in my psychology work who said something very poignant. He's involved in the Sunrise Movement and climate work and various other things. And really struggling with bringing out his views. And how that might affect his relationships with his family around some areas. And, you know, I made a reference to that, well, there's landmines in every direction, no matter what direction you go, there are these. And he said something along the lines of well, the best path is the one that destroys myself or something like that. You know, in the sense that he was really thinking that it would be safest just to destroy himself, you know, than to destroy his family relationships or these other things. So really, we take this in and we sometimes come to even a sacrifice, a self-sacrifice level here.Pihkala: Thanks for sharing and sharing that. I know that's very important for many people. And while I'm not a therapist, I've met in workshops some young people who have roughly similar takes on life. And [are] feeling those pressures. And it seems that it can be linked with feelings of shame also. And the so-called species shame is one dimension of this. Tim Jensen, in his book about Ecologies of Guilt in Environmental Rhetorics, discusses these for example. And the troubling questions related to what humanity is doing. And then the possibility to feel a sort of species level shame. Which then can lead also to self-loathing, and sometimes even in self-harming behavior. And that's been an important point for me. I often emphasize that what we call eco-anxiety is fundamentally very adaptive, because it shows that people are paying attention to what's happening in the world. And there's motivation to do something for the problems. But of course, one part of this broad spectrum is self-harming and even self-destructive behavior. So it…

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Season 1, Episode 9: Finding Meaning in “Generation Dread” with Guest Britt Wray Apr 29, 2022

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image credit | Tyler Nix Season 1, Episode 9 | Finding Meaning in “Generation Dread” with Guest Britt Wray This episode is part two of Climate Change and Happiness’s series focusing on childbearing decisions in a time of climate disruption. Science journalist and Gen Dread creator Britt Wray joins Thomas and Panu. Britt describes her “long and winding road” through climate emotions, inspired by her own journey toward having a child. She and Panu reminisce about their earlier conversations about grief and survivorship when Britt was beginning her research. Britt notes her personal shift from “asking is it okay to have a child, to what's required to have a child today? How do we support children in this world?” Thomas noted how Britt’s public exploration of her parenting decisions through her Gen Dread newsletter has filled a void for prospective parents as therapists and mental health continue to become schooled in addressing climate concerns. Wray offers a look into her forthcoming book Generation Dreadthat compiles her insights about coping and meaning-making amid the climate crisis. Britt reminds us that making decisions about having a child, or not, does not mean that feelings about the climate crisis fade away, and she normalizes how we all can find ourselves toggling between “disaster mode” and quiet contemplation of the cosmos. Join us for a rich and intimate conversation. LinksGen Dread NewsletterGeneration Dread: Finding Purpose in an Age of Climate CrisisConversation between Dr. Jade Sasser and Dr. Britt WrayRobert J. Lifton - Survivor MissionGood Grief Network Emerging research on Matresence (the developmental process of becoming a mother) by Aurelie Athan and Allison DavisThomas Attig - Relearning the WorldTranscriptSeason 1, Episode 9: Finding Meaning in “Generation Dread” with Guest Britt Wray[music: “CC&H theme music”]Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.Thomas Doherty: Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty. Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is a podcast for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change. The personal side of climate change. Particularly their emotional responses. And today we have a guest. Britt Wray: Hi, I'm Britt Wray.Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Britt. We are very glad that you found the time to come to talk with us. We have a certain history over the last couple of years. You and I have been talking about climate emotions and eco anxiety and other stuff several times. And it's been really exciting to follow both the development of your soon coming new book. And, of course, the great newsletter, Gen Dread, that you've been running. So there's plenty of things to talk about related to the topics of our podcast. Which is really about living in the times of the climate crisis and the ecological crisis. But how would you like to describe the standpoint where you're coming [from] Britt? I know plenty of that, but what would you like to share for the beginners?Wray: Sure. Thanks, Panu. It's true. We met a few years ago now. Due to this work that overlaps, I actually reached out to both of you, both Thomas and Panu, for early interviews in my research for this book I have coming out. Generation Dread. Which is about the psychological underpinnings and impacts and disturbances emotionally that the climate crisis is setting into our lives in different ways – depending on who we are and how we're being exposed to it. And I was drawn to do this work because of my own experience with really intense eco anxiety that set in several years ago, 2017-ish when my partner and I started having conversations about trying to get pregnant. And, of course, the climate crisis was nothing new to me. I had studied conservation biology in my undergrad. I had written a book about technologies to try and lessen the blow of the biodiversity crisis. I was very much on the environmental beat. But this dilemma of whether or not we [should] have a child really burst through any defenses I had left for feeling somewhat comfortable in the climate crisis. And [it] became an existential emotional issue. Because the question of whether or not you're going to bring life into the world is of that nature, right? Especially life. A person who's not asking to be here and doesn't need to be here. And you're signing them up to witness ecological decline for the rest of their days on this planet. And at the time, I felt very alone in those feelings. I didn't see them reflected by anyone around me. It was before this became a huge talking point as it is now. Where we've gotten op-eds about it in all the major newspapers. And we've got polls and surveys from researchers looking into this phenomenon. Then, I felt abject and deviant and strange for even connecting the climate crisis to my reproductive decision making, which made it [a] more difficult experience for me — But also something I was fascinated by and curious about. And I thought, okay, if I'm now feeling waves of grief and anxiety, but also a lot of rage. Rage at the idea that the situation has become so bad that people in my generation have to bear the cost of not getting to know our own children. Because of [the] inaction of leaders and people put in power, who are supposed to protect us and make the future a livable place. Wow! What else is this doing to people? And people who are not as privileged and protected as me? — And are much more exposed to the direct effects already. I mean, how is this shaking down? And I started to turn over the stones as a science communicator, because that's what I am. A science writer and broadcaster. And then I realized, oh, that's one tiny sliver of the emotional impact that the planetary health crisis is having on people. And we need to talk about this more. And so that's why I came to interview both of you and many, many others from a variety of fields. And develop a sense of how we can cope as individuals with all of this. But also come together collectively in a way of injecting our consciousness with new forms of stability and resilience and awareness for being at this time. And working collectively to try and create a better future than we otherwise expect. So, I want to thank you both for being people out there, I could go to at that time who were already thinking about this. And, as you know, the topic has just exploded in the years since then. It's been pretty incredible to watch the relevance among the public at large spike, which we wish it wouldn't have to. But at the same time, there's a lot of momentum around understanding these emotions now, which I think is ultimately a really good thing. Doherty: Yeah. Well, that's really well said, Britt. I mean, I was talking to a client I'm working with who's a climate change person [who] has also been doing this for years. And we were saying, you know, some folks have been in the auditorium for a long time working on this stuff, but it's a big auditorium. And now suddenly, the seats are starting to fill. You know, there's other people coming in. And so, yeah, it is .. realizing that even though we're kind of pathfinders, you know, there's a lot of people just coming on to the scene. So I wonder, … do you chart a developmental course for yourself, even since this project? You must have come a long way personally, you know, in your thinking. I think that could be one thing we could talk about is how this project changed you. Or what you discovered. It was kind of like a rite of passage or a heroine's journey or something, right? Because I know you've had, do you have a — I don't know much about your family now. We could talk about our families too. … How do you think the project has changed you or what have been some insights, you know, that made you a better person?Wray: It's been pretty dramatic. In terms of how writing this book has changed my life. It was - now I understand why writers say you should write from pain. You know, you should spin it out into something that you transform into beauty. And that it's this just drive within you that can give a lot. But you really go into the bottom of the U shaped curve. I think writing the book both made me more terrified, depressed, enraged, anxious than I've ever been in my life. But also, as it broke my heart open, it also healed it. And brought me the most robust and radical forms of coping. And transforming myself into a better way of being able to deal with what's going on than I could have possibly thought of accessing before. So it holds that tension. But really, by exploring the existential fears and insecurities of many different people through the book, and reflecting on my own situation. That insight. The urgency. It really, you know, there's a moral clarity involved with paying attention to these issues, which is incredibly motivating and purposeful. And it gives a lot of meaning. It's a meaning focused coping approach. And it brushes the bullshit aside in terms of other distractions. And things to spend one's time and energies on. And then you start getting on that soul level with other people. And meeting them. Being able to stand in the fire with them on issues that are so important. And that they might not feel like they have people to talk to about. Which then becomes this kind of social glue for repairing the social fabric in an amazingly potent way. And that injected my work with new meaning. I realized, okay, there's a lot of people hurting out there. There's a lot of people at a loss for how to handle these emotions. We need to pay attention to how we are supporting each other and ourselves with this, so that we don't maladaptively cope. So that we don't fall into immobilizing forms of paralysis around the crisis. So that we don't, you know, ascribe to doomism, and believe it's too late to make any actions that could make a difference and be worthwhile. But that are motivating and strengthening and ways of finding new forms of connection and trust within the human species for being here at this time. I mean, all these really, it sounds so grandiose, but really, that's what this crisis does to you. And, all of that was incredibly powerful for me such that I just finished my PhD in a totally different subject. In science communication with a focus on synthetic biology. Newly minted doctorate. Dropped that. Abandoned that. Moved into this field as a non clinician, non psychologist, non psychiatrist. You know, but did the grunt work to basically try and get another PhD level of knowledge in it. And then eventually be able to apply to do this postdoc I'm now doing at Stanford University in the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine where I research the mental health impacts of the climate crisis on emerging adults. So that I can, you know, try and contribute with all the amazing people who are doing this work now to create mental health protection and promotion strategies for this globally distributed vulnerable population that we know is feeling really anxious about the climate crisis in ways that are debilitating for many. And then also, through finding the coping mechanisms with my research, I was able to no longer be so rattled. Not, you know, have these over-pourings of dark visions about everything that were rubbing off on the people around me, like my partner, for example. I just, I had found myself in a place where I couldn't talk about the future without overlaying a filter of apocalyptic possibility. And, you know, so I needed to find my balance. I needed to make meaning from what's going on. And I did so in a way that the original dilemma that got me into this feeling like oh, my gosh, I can't bring a kid into the situation, no longer at all became my story. And I shifted from asking is it okay to have a child to what's required to have a child today? How do we support children in this world? And I now have a six month old who brings me tons of joy. So that wouldn't have happened without the book, I don't think. And without making new colleagues like you, and so many others that are creating avenues of radical hope in this situation. And, yeah, so long windy answer to your question. I think it changed me personally, and my family and professionally in terms of what I'm not focused on.Pihkala: Thanks so much, Britt, for sharing that. That's very rich and profound. And [a] long and winding road might be a very apt metaphor. And what I hear you describe is a sort of existential process or a process of transformation. And, of course, I'm very glad about the end results. That after what I reckon, are many fluctuations along the way and many curves on the road. You've reached better coping skills and social connections and sort of giving yourself permission to feel all kinds of feelings. That's what this podcast is also, much about. And then the child is here, too, which is a great source of gladness. And there's so many things to discuss here. But one that I want to ask because it's close to myself, also. I did this book about eco anxiety and hope in Finnish in 2017. And that got me into a lot of media stuff in Finland. I do remember those times that it's sometimes tricky that sort of people are looking up to you. That what should we do about this thing? And it's so huge and complex. And did you ever have, you know, feelings of the so-called impostor syndrome, or that kind of? How did you manage that part of the process where many people started asking you about what should we do about this?Wray: Oh, gosh, yeah. That's just a normal part of my reality now. Because, you know, I have a newsletter, which explores these topics, much like your podcast does. And I have really engaged [with] readers who are amazing. And sometimes my inbox gets filled with their nightmares, you know. And holding that in a way that is supportive and containing for others, but also recognizing I'm in the crisis too. And I don't have the solutions. I have offerings of things that have worked for me and others that they can try, but it's also a gentle walk, because I'm not a clinician. And I'm not supposed to be giving advice. So doing that in a way that's professionally responsible around those items, but still seeing them as a kindred spirit. And understanding where they are and knowing what it feels like. And that they need to know they're not alone. And find that connection. And some ideas for coping in a peer support way is something that confronts me with those feelings of I can't take away your pain, you know. But it tips over into some especially dangerous territory when I get young people writing me who are clearly suicidal around the climate crisis. Then I have to be extremely careful. And I refer to my clinical colleagues in those instances on how to best direct them in what fashion. But yeah, it's a lot. I mean, it's heavy. And this is the kind of work that I know a lot of climate aware therapists have to do. It's special in the sense that you have to process your own attachment to the source of the strain that they're experiencing and communicating to you. Because this is a universal problem.Doherty: Yeah. Pihkala: How does that sound to you, Thomas, as a climate therapist?Doherty: Yeah. I'm very mindful of all this as we're talking. I mean, I just want to say, thanks, Britt. I really appreciate your…

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