The Partial Historians

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Classical Reception in Lil Nas X with Yentl Love Aug 17, 2023

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We sit down with Yentl Love to talk all about classical reception in Lil Nas X’s 2021 music video for ‘Call Me By Your Name'. Yentl Love is the famous Queer Classicist and we recommend checking out her blog for accessible analysis of the ancient world. We are thrilled to have Yentl return to the show – you may remember her from the insightful conversation we had about the reception of Cleopatra.Lil Nas X has enjoyed great success with his debut album Montero and we were keen to learn more about how he utilised allusions to the ancient world to drive conversations about black identity and queerness as well as to complicate ideas about the heroic and how we might derive meaning when we analyse the past. It's definitely worth watching the music video before getting into the episode itself!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6swmTBVI83kThe ancient world has a wealth of symbolism and allusion that has built up and developed over time through the use and reuse of imagery and ideas and this conversation really just touches some of the potentials.Special Episode – Classical Reception in Lil Nas X with Yentl LoveThe Ideal ManWhat makes the ideal man? Lil Nas X poses the question with a visual allusion to Doryphoros, the famous sculpture by the Greek Polykleitos, which is thought to represent the physical ideal in ancient Greek culture. Doryphoros was a favoured subjected in later Roman sculpture as well.Doryphoros from Pompeii – A Roman marble reimagining of a Greek sculpture by Polykeitos. Now in the MAN Napoli.Architectural InfluencesThe opening of the music video provides a sweeping vista that on the surface has the appearance of paradise but is dotted with ruined buildings and structures. What could this mean? We ask Yentl's perspective.Still from ‘Call Me By your Name' showing a Doric Temple in the foreground and an Aqueduct in the backgroundJust a regular symposium…Famously, Plato's Symposium gets a shout out in ‘Call me By Your Name' with a quotation that roughly translates as “After the division the two parts of man, each desiring his other half…” We consider the significance of this phrase in context and enjoy the fact that every so often someone uses an ancient language in a modern setting!Still from ‘Call Me By Your Name' Ancient Greek from Plato's Symposium on the Tree of KnowledgeI like my hair like I like my Flavians!As the music video progresses, we see Lil Nas X shift scenes to an arena. The hairstyles on display in this scene recall the gravity defying hair styles favoured by the Flavian dynasty. Still from ‘Call Me By Your Name' showing hairstyles echoing the FlaviansFor comparison, consider the hair style of the portrait bust below. Although the identity of the subject is not certain, this piece is often identified as Julia Titi, the daughter of the Flavian emperor Titus. She was reputed to be a great beauty, but it's the very high ringlets that win the day here!Portrait bust of a young woman with an extremely high hair style made of ringlets. Capitoline Museum. Source: TumblrThings to listen out forLizzo’s music video for ‘Rumors’Katabasis – a traditional heroic descent to the UnderworldNero taking a man as wife and also being a brideThe sacred band of ThebesHadrian and AntinousCorrection – Dr G meant Patroklos not Paterculus when discussing Achilles!Black women writers on MedusaInterested in learning more about the writers mentioned in this episode? Consider the following:Dorothea Smartt on Medusa Listen to Dorothea perform poems from her catalogue here Shara McCallum’s “The Madwoman as Rasta Medusa” Sound CreditsOur music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.Still from ‘Call Me By your Name' Music Video by Lil Nas X. Notes that the video was directed by Tanu Muino and Lil Nas X, song produced by D. Baptiste, D. Biral, O. Fedi, R. Lenzo.Automated TranscriptLightly edited for clarity.Dr Rad 0:12Welcome to The Partial Historians.Dr G 0:15We explore all the details of ancient Rome.Dr Rad 0:20Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.Dr G 0:30And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.Dr Rad 0:41Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.Dr G 0:57Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I'm one of your hosts, Dr. G.Dr Rad 1:06And I am Dr. Rad.Dr G 1:08And we are thrilled to be joined today by Yentl Love, who is working on her PhD at Potsdam University and is universally famous for her blog as The Queer Classicist. Thank you so much for joining us.Yentl 1:26Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm so glad to be back chatting to you more.Dr Rad 1:31So we're very excited because we're discussing something extremely cool. And actually, quite frankly, a little out of our comfort zone today.Dr G 1:41Yeah, look, I don't think we are known as paragons of popular music. Nevertheless, we were super fascinated to see the rise. And the continued rise, I think of Lil Nas X, and what he is doing with his musical journey. And it is a thrill to sit down today with anto to talk about one specific music video that has come through and his debut album, and that is Montero “Call Me By Your Name”.Dr Rad 2:09So let's kick it off with our first question. So let's think about maybe classical reception more broadly. Because of course, the video clip is kind of what's intrigued us all, I think with its imagery and whatnot. So classical reception can obviously take many forms. I personally like the film side of things, but can you talk us through what the phrase classical reception means to you?Yentl 2:30So yeah, I mean, as you said, this is a really, really broad field that we're talking about, and it encompasses so much within it. On its most basic level, I'd say that when we are talking about classical reception, we're kind of considering how the classical world so really looking at ancient Greece and Rome, and how it has been received and portrayed or represented across time. So this can be anything from an architecture, when we see buildings deliberately kind of evoking this ancient Greco Roman kind of period. Or in literature, like, famously Madeline Miller's “Song of Achilles”, or in music, like Lizzo's music video for “Rumors”, and we're going to talk about Lil Nas X's music video. And as well as like, where we see these parts of ancient history depicted. I think another big part of classical reception is thinking, why do we see these particular parts down? Why is there this use of like Greek and Roman material? What is the specific message that the work of reception is trying to put through? Through using it? But yeah, the field really is just massively wide. And what I really like about it is I think that all uses of classical reception are equally valid and equally worthy of study, like a piece of fanfiction about, like Mark Antony and Augustus, could be discussed in like just as much detail as like the architecture of the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin. All of this is just different types of classical reception.Dr G 4:08Yeah, there's really a wide array of uses and reuses of ancient imagery. And when we're talking about classical reception, hinting back at particularly Greece and Rome are though I imagine at some point, we're also going to see in our lifetimes, the interrogation of classical in a more robust way, and I'm looking forward to seeing how that goes. But taking off from where we're starting with, like this idea of classical reception in modern culture, for a little bit of context for our listeners out there who spend all ages and all interests, who is Lil Nas X?Yentl 4:43Okay, so Lil Nas X is a stage name for Montero Lamar Hill. He is a black, queer American rapper and singer songwriter, and I think probably he's most famous for his song “Old Town Road”, but then he released his first studio album “Montero” in 2021. And yeah, the music video we're going to be talking about is from one of the songs on that debut album.Dr Rad 5:11Absolutely. I mean, I had never heard of it before. I know everyone's gonna be really shocked that I don't follow rap. In any, you know, I really stopped listening after “Shoop”. And so I'm really glad that I had my attention directed towards his music video, because it is really fascinating. And we're not the only ones to be interested in it. Because there's some really intriguing representations and expressions of queerness. And the ways that the music video explores allusions to the ancient world. So what are some of the significant images and symbols that come through in the music video?Yentl 5:47So one of the things that's like, most interesting, I think about the video is the way it forms almost like a long heroic art are a long narrative around this central character. But we can really split the whole video into three sections. There's this kind of chasing at the start. And that's taking place in a landscape where we see like architectural ruins of Greek buildings and temples, we see Greek inscriptions. And then that continues as we move into the second thematic section, which is in this kind of arena, big quality and style venue. So again, we've got this repeated association with Greco Roman architecture, which kind of really grounded it and discussion of the video as a work of receptions. And what's really interesting with the second thing is that the figures are all depicted with these very, very tooled like elaborately cold wigs, which almost perfectly mirror the statues that we have of women from this period of Rome called Flavian. Rome. And in that period, we start to see a lot of concerns emerging about female independent about female sexuality. And so it's the start of this like real discussion about almost like changing gender roles and concerns about sexuality. So it's a really kind of niche insight into this ancient discussion of what was happening with gender and sexuality and then brought through into, you know, Lil Nas X's exploration of this kind of queerness. And we also then, in the same scene have known as a pairing and chain, which has both been read through this kind of biblical lens as a reflection of John the Baptist, or of Samson with like Samson and Delilah, but also seems similar to Herakles or Hercules in Rome, in his outfit the way he's portrayed, like in modern strongman, that's not my area. But we see that same pose when you're holding up columns with big chains, and that is referred to as the Hercules pose. So we get this kind of reflection of Hercules and no knights portraying himself as this kind of hero throughout the throughout the music video. And then again, when the venue changes, he descends into hell or Hades. And we see statues outside the gates which seem very, very Greek. They're looking like these depictions of Doryphoros, which was sculpture, Polykleitos says he was sculpting like the ideal man. And so it's like the spear bearer, and we see them standing outside the gate to hell. And then as he enters, we see statues of Medusa, which again, is a kind of image we've seen all throughout this music video. And that in itself has massive ties to both classical mythologies, classical receptions, and also to black culture. We have a lot of poems by black and diasporic women, where they kind of claim Medusa as a collective ancestor. Or they compare the way that Medusas hair is treated to the way that black women's hair has been historically shamed. And kind of reviled by white western culture. If you want to read up more on that poets like Dorothea Smartt, and Shara McCallum really talk about this and exemplify this in their work. But yeah, so we have these kind of repeated motifs of different eras, the heroic area, the Medusa kind of metaphor, and the Medusa symbols, and then also this repeated discussion of like the architecture, the ruined architecture, and throwback to specific period and Roman history.Dr Rad 9:36I have to say, I am blown away by how much has actually been packed into this video clip because it's like less than three minutes long.Yentl 9:45Yeah unbelievable. Literally, when I presented on this topic at a conference in April, I think, and when I was looking through the music video, it was almost like every two seconds just pausing it and being like taking note that oh, okay, and another thing on thing? So yeah, it's just massively like you said, it's really packed in.Dr G 10:07And I think it has this amazing capacity to draw on multiple sources at once and sort of enrich itself through its sort of intertextuality. So you're storing that sort of reference, not just to Roman history, not just to the Greek heroic mode, but also those connections between queerness and blackness, and how that representation might be filtered through these different types of lenses. I really love the Flavian hair, I have to say, I think that's amazing. And the Flavian is have this really tricky period where it's this sort of backlash against the jeweler chlorians and the excesses of that, and some of the perceived power plays of women within that former dynasty. And so it's like, how will Flavian women be perceived, and the way that this video sort of touches on that as well, and has that sort of call back to that sort of constraint in the feminine, that is happening through the way that hair is dressed is really interesting.Yentl 11:09Yeah, absolutely.Dr G 11:10So on that note, not only does Lil Nas X engage in classical illusion, visually, but we also get this direct intertextual reference to Plato's Symposium. So there is a tree of knowledge in this video. So there's no way to separate out the classical reception with the Christian reception that is going on here. But this tree of knowledge is a really prominent symbol in the video. And there is this moment where we get this close up of the tree trunk, and it's inscribed with ancient Greek. And we never get a translation for that in the video, it's just left there for the viewer to ponder on and enjoy. Or if you study ancient Greek to be like, Oh. My. God. Something is happening. So even though the phrase remains untranslated, it doesn't really take long for the collective world to come together and look at what is being considered here, which is this really particular idea of “the division of two parts of men, each desiring his other half.” And I'm interested in the significance you read in this intertextual illusion.Yentl 12:20Yeah, I completely agree with the excitement when I first saw it as like, this is why all of those like hard use of doing ancient Greek, they are worth it for this specific music video. But yeah, this quote is one of my favorite, I think aspects of the whole video. So it's referencing, as you said, Plato's Symposium. And the specific part has been quoted comes from this discussion by the character s Aristophanes, talking about how early humans were double formed by two bodies in one. And then when their bodies were split by Zeus, they will always like search for their original half. So if you're a woman that was in a female female body, you will search for another woman, if you are a man from a male male body, who search for another man, if you're from a male female body, you will be searching for the other gender. So obviously, this discussion is supposed to be taken literally, they're just swapping stories about ideas that they have about love in this passage. But it forms a really interesting kind of early discussion of the idea of soulmate, but also explaining why different people…

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The Commonwealth of Slaves Aug 03, 2023

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After the kerfuffles of 420 BCE, it’s time for a brand new year or two! In this episode we consider 419 and 418 BCE. These two years are packed with exciting moments as we get to learn about an uprising from below – we're siding with the slaves!We recorded in a new location for this episode. So if you hear a little bit of crowd noise in the background that's all part of the atmosphere of taping out and about.Episode 140 – The Commonwealth of SlavesThe Slaves are Revolting!It happens every so often, but in this year there’s a few twists! Whose side are the gods on? Is that the smell of smoke? We consider the representation of enslaved people in the ancient written literary sources that provide us with their annalistic narratives…As events unfold, we take a moment to explore the nature of bodily punishment and particularly crucifixion in ancient Rome. Where did it come from? When did it come into practice? We consider the details.Still from the film “Spartacus” (1960) showing the crucifixion of the rebels by Rome. We touch on Spartacus in our consideration of the practice of crucifixion. Note, the fate of the historical Spartacus is not known. Source: No Name Movie BlogTrouble in the RanksIt comes as no surprise that the Romans might be facing trouble from their neighbours, but the years 419-418 BCE hold not just trouble without but disagreements between the military tribunes with consular power. How will Rome wrangle their own leaders into line? And will they be able to do it in time to win the day on the battlefield? We delve into the details.Things to Listen Out ForThe AequiansConsiderations of the Italic peoplesWhat did you say about the Capitol?The Spartacan RevoltBlasé RomansThe TusculumsThe LabicaniCoriolanus!Our Players 419 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular PowerAgrippa Menenius T. f. Agripp. N. Lanatus (Pat), previously consul in 439Publius Lucretius Hosti f. – n. Tricipitinus (Pat)Spurius Nautius Sp. f. Sp. n. Rutilus (Pat)Gaius Servilius Q. f. C. n. Axilla (Pat), thought to be previously consul in 427Our Players 418 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular PowerLucius Sergius C. f. C. n. Fidenas (Pat), previously consul in 437, 429; and previously military tribune with consular power in 433, 424Marcus Papirius L. f. -. n. Mugillanus (Pat)Gaius Servilius Q. f. C. n. Axilla (Pat), previously consul in 427, military tribune with consular power in the previous year 419DictatorQuintus Servilius P. f. Sp. n. Priscus Fidenas (Pat)Master of the HorseGaius Servilius Q. f. C. n. Axilla (Pat) – upgraded from military tribune with consular power!CensorLucius Papirius L. f. -. n. Mugillanus (Pat). Previously consul in 427 and military tribune with consular power 422.Our SourcesDr G reads Fasti Capitolini, Fasti Minores (CIL 1(2).1,p 55, no.1), Dionysius of Halicarnassus 5.61; 8.19; 12.6.5-7; Diodorus Siculus 13.2.1; 13.6.7; Frontinus Stratagems 2.8.8Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.45-46Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association) Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis) Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). Sound CreditsOur music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects are courtesy of BBC Beta.A map showing regions south and east of Rome including a possible location for Labicum – just north east of Tusculum! Other important sites include Tusculum in the Alban Hills to the south-east of Rome.Image credits to ColdEel and Ahenobarbus. Source: Wikimedia Commons.Automated TranscriptLightly edited for clarity!Dr Rad 0:12Welcome to The Partial Historians.Dr G 0:15We explore all the details of ancient Rome.Dr Rad 0:20Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.Dr G 0:30And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.Dr Rad 0:41Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.Dr G 0:56Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. And I am one of your hosts, Dr. G.Dr Rad 1:05And I am your other host Dr Rad. Welcome.Dr G 1:08Welcome, welcome one and all, we are tracing Rome's history from the foundation of the city. And it's exciting times. It's been exciting times for a while. It's always an exciting episode when we return to Rome,Dr Rad 1:21I think, I think so. So last time, Dr. G, we were in the midst of 420 BCE.Dr G 1:28Ah, it was a great year.Dr Rad 1:30It was a great year because we actually got to talk about a woman It has been so long since we mentioned a woman.Dr G 1:36We've been going through a real dry patch with ladies.Dr Rad 1:40Which is not something you want to hear.Dr G 1:42No, no as a lady that is not not a great status quo. So we touched on the life and times of the Vestal Virgin Postumia. We did and she got herself into a little bit of trouble for having a sense of humor and a sense of style.Dr Rad 1:58I mean, if they're not a criminal offense, I don't know what is.Dr G 2:03With the danger of live burial on the table. I think she changed her tune and adjusted her behaviour.Dr Rad 2:09It seems like she backed down once she realized just how seriously they took this kind of stuff.Dr G 2:16Imagine trying to have a personality in ancient Rome, and now…Dr Rad 2:20That's not what being a Vestal's about.Dr G 2:22Ouch.Dr Rad 2:22Yeah. Luckily, she did escape live burial. I mean, that was my real concern that she was actually going to be buried alive for her raunchy dressing. And her jokes.Dr G 2:36Yeah, tragic times, tragic times. But no, all is safe. And well, Postumia goes on to live. So she's presumably still alive as we run into the year. That was 419.Dr Rad 2:48Yeah, I know. And we've also got, obviously a bit of a patrician-plebeian and drama that's been happening in that we also had the trial of Sempronius.Dr G 2:55Yes, well, that's what happens when you run away from a battle.Dr Rad 2:58Well, this is the thing right? Our sources, as we discovered last week, made out like the tribunes were attacking him because they wanted to vent they rage against his family, and they couldn't vent it against the person who they felt actually deserved it at that point in time, who was allegedly someone arranging fake elections and not allowing the plebeians to get through and so they decided to target the other Sempronius guy Sempronius military general from a few years before, but if you actually think about it, he deserved to be prosecuted. Because he had done a terrible job.Dr G 3:36It's true.Dr Rad 3:37Yeah.Dr G 3:38Yeah, look 420, what a time.Dr Rad 3:41Yeah, it was interesting. I mean, lots of legal action really. So we really need to insert the doo-dumDr G 3:49I see what you did that more. I heard what you did.Dr Rad 3:54Anyway, but that sounds so yeah, it was really all about the legal stuff and 420 but now I think we're probably ready to move into 419 BCE.Dr G 4:26It's 419 BCEDr Rad 4:29Certainly is. Now let me guess, let me guess. You don't have any material from Dionysius of Halicarnassus?Dr G 4:39Oh well on that front, you'd be mistaken. It's not that I have a lot of sources though. And it's not like I have a lot of Dionysius of Halicarnassus.Dr Rad 4:50Okay.Dr G 4:51But let's start with our main players for this year.Dr Rad 4:56Let's do it. Now. I think very excitingly, we have military tribunes with consular power.Dr G 5:01We do, and we've got four of them.Dr Rad 5:04Ooh.Dr G 5:04Let me introduce you to our cast of illustrious gentleman.Dr Rad 5:08Please do.Dr G 5:09We have Agrippa Menenius Lanatus – previously, apparently, consul in 439, which was a long time ago!Dr Rad 5:20Who can remember that long ago that was what five years ago now?Dr G 5:24Notable for the issue with Spurius Maelius.Dr Rad 5:29Ooo, okay yes, I am remembering this guy now. Yes, of course. How could I forget 439?Dr G 5:37Yeah, it was a big year.Dr Rad 5:38Yeah.Dr G 5:38We also have Publius Lucretius Hosti TricipitinusDr Rad 5:46Bloody hell, what a nameDr G 5:48Tri-cip-i-tinusDr Rad 5:52I have another version which is I think TricipiTINUSDr G 5:56Oooo.Dr Rad 5:57Yeah, I know but who knows? I think basically we can say that three is a part of that name.Dr G 6:04I think we can and there are too many ‘i's for me as an English speaker to be able to handleDr Rad 6:08Yeah, too many.Dr G 6:08Which is why I struggle with Italian as well. This guy seems to be new – no mention of him in previous years.Dr Rad 6:15I think we'd remember that many syllables.Dr G 6:17Look, I'd have trouble every single time as well. I keep tripping over his name. Third off the ranks is Spurius Nautius Rutilus.Dr Rad 6:31Yep. Yep.Dr G 6:33Also new.Dr Rad 6:35I remember I remember Nautius before I feel like I've heard that.Dr G 6:38Yeah, I like Spurius Nautius. I feel like that's the nice companion to Spurius Furius.Dr Rad 6:43Yeah. Spurius Nautius is just a little bit camp.Dr G 6:47He goes to all the parties.Dr Rad 6:47He's like, Oh, giiirl.Dr G 6:52The kind of man you want to be friends with.Dr Rad 6:54Exactly, exactly.Dr G 6:55And last but definitely not least, Gaius Servilius Axilla.Dr Rad 7:01Ooh. Now that is an unusual name. But again, I feel like we have maybe come across that before.Dr G 7:06We have – previously consul in 427.Dr Rad 7:09There you go.Dr G 7:09And is about to start a really stellar hattrick as military tribune with consular power – this is the year that it begins. So that's some foreshadowing for everybody.Dr Rad 7:23Now, I'd like to start with a quote, if I may. Oh, unless you have any more magistrates?Dr G 7:27No, no, I think that's it.Dr Rad 7:29I didn't think so. You just looked at me like, “wait, there are more magistrates.” I was like, “Are there? Did I miss it?”Dr G 7:35No, there's only four.Dr Rad 7:36Okay, so my translation of Livy has great sentence, I think for kicking off 419 BCE: “It was a year remarkable, thanks to the good fortune of the Roman people, for a great danger, but not a disaster”.Dr G 7:51Wow. Livy's setting up that sense of suspense and mystery really early on.Dr Rad 7:56Yeah, but also letting you know that it's going to be okay. I think like in the grand scheme of things.Dr G 8:00Phew – okay, for whom, though? I feel like Livy is a bit pro-patrician really.Dr Rad 8:05A bit? Yes, I think you would be correct in it. So I do have a bit of a story about some slaves, Dr. G. Should I tell it to you or do you have some?Dr G 8:17I would love that.Dr Rad 8:18Okay, so what Livy, I think, he's referring to here is that we actually have a bit of a conspiracy from below.Dr G 8:27Oh, no, not conspirosity?Dr Rad 8:29Yeah. Yeah. So the slaves have this plot. And it's just the slaves. Like, I presume that means every single slave, but obviously, why get into specifics, when it's coming to the lower classes. They have a plot to set Rome on fire from various points. Now, that's not because they're actually trying to set room on fire. Stay with me.Dr G 8:52That is an accidental side part?Dr Rad 8:54It really is. The idea is that the fires are a mere distraction, Dr. G, because the idea is that the Roman citizens would therefore be sort of pulled in different directions all over the city and kind of to the outskirts of the city, because this is where the fires would be happening. They'd be trying to save their houses. They're trying to put out the fire. The slaves would be taking over control of the Citadel and the Capitol using an armed force. It's an evil plan!Dr G 9:26Well, that's very exciting. Okay, all right. I I'm not sure how to necessarily feel about that. There is some correlation in Dionysius of Halicarnassus.Dr Rad 9:38Really?Dr G 9:39My man's back! For one show only.Dr Rad 9:43Well, I have two more details to tell you about that. Should I tell you about it?Dr G 9:46Yeah, go for it.Dr Rad 9:46Okay. So, as Livy alluded to, this is a great danger to the city, but it did not end in disaster. Because Jupiter was looking out for his people. That's right. Jupiter made sure that the Romans did not suffer and the slaves did not succeed. Now, he then tells me that there is evidence gathered from some of the participants of this plot. So a couple of the slaves basically informed on what was happening. And it allowed everybody else to be arrested, rounded up, interrogated and punishedDr G 10:24Class traitors? No!Dr Rad 10:26Yeah, well, I Okay. This is where it gets really interesting. He actually says that the informants were given 10,000 pounds of bronze and their freedom.Dr G 10:36Wow.Dr Rad 10:36Yeah, which I actually, I didn't think that the slaves would actually be treated that generously, I kind of thought that the Romans would see that as just something that they should do. Because you know, they owed it to their masters like maybe freedom, maybe manumission. Sure. But giving them Yeah, money, I wouldn't have actually seen that coming. And Livy's actually even a bit dismissive about the amount they're given. He said, this passed for wealth back then. A pittance now.Dr G 11:05I think it's one of those things where, presumably what the patricians are attempting to encourage here is for more slaves to come forward more often. Before these sorts of conspiracies really get off the ground.Dr Rad 11:22True. And I mean, you know, if this has anything to go by, it's working for them.Dr G 11:28We've set the precedent. And now we'll see how we go.Dr Rad 11:31And I feel like this is really intriguing. I mean, what a, what a treat for us, in a sense, because last episode, we got to talk about a woman, we haven't been able to do that for a while. Now we're able to talk about slavery, because we haven't really talked about slaves very much.Dr G 11:44Yeah enslaved people don't tend to get a lot of currency in our source material at this point in time, but the ancient world is really foundationally built on the exploitation of human labor. And there's no doubt that it's, well, maybe there is doubt, it seems reasonable, that the Roman population may even be outnumbered by enslaved people at this point in time.Dr Rad 12:11It's, it's so hard to figure out, isn't it? Yeah. Because generally, we associate slavery and Rome, I think, in that period, when the Romans are truly taking part in these sort of large scale wars of conquest. Now, lately, even though we have seen the Romans taking part, in a lot of warfare, as we've talked about, with our expansion scores, it's not really about adding territory, you know, of late, like, there's been the odd time when they've added a bit of territory in like, the last 100 years that we've talked about. But generally, it's been more about, you know, either putting those people in that place or defending Rome from an attack, it hasn't really been about adding territory. So they're not really, you know, expanding their control right now. certainly nowhere near on the scale of that they're going to, in the well, I say, the not too distant future, but God knows, probably 10 years away.Dr G 13:02Hundreds and hundreds of years from now.Dr Rad 13:06And that's I think, when we tend to think of them having slaves, because obviously, one of the easier ways to get slaves is to conquer a place and take the people that have managed to survive the conflict and ma…

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Special Episode - Women of Myth with Ancient History Fan Girl Jul 27, 2023

Show notes

Content warning for this episode: violence, sexual violence, removal of childrenWe sit down to chat with Genn and Jenny, the fabulous cohosts of the Ancient History Fan Girl podcast. They have recently published Women of Myth: From Deer Woman and Mami Wata to Amaterasu and Athena which examines fifty women and femme presenting figures from cultures across the globe.While Women of Myth is the centre of this conversation, there’s no way to discuss ancient ideas about women without considering how that might reflect upon the contemporary issues that women face. This also leads into consideration of the challenges faced by women throughout history.We wrap up with a discussion of looking beyond the ancient Greco-Roman world – the value of doing that and what that can look like in podcasting.Special Episode – Women of Myth with Ancient History Fan GirlWhat makes a book?In this interview, we explore some of the details of the book includingThe ideas that shaped the concept for Women of MythThe role of Sara Richard’s illustrations in expanding representationWhat it was like to co-write a book togetherListen out for discussions aboutAmba/Shikhandi – The Vengeance-Seeking Genderqueer Warrior of the MahabharataAtalanta – The Ancient Greek Warrior, Athlete, and ArgonautĪtzpāpālōtl – The Skeletal Warrior Goddess of the AztecsLa Llorona – The Wailing Woman of Mexican MythologyMedea – Dr G draws parallels with La Llorona and Medea’s storiesThe Morrigan – The Ancient Irish Goddess of War and Battle FrenzyOya – The Yoruba Warrior Goddess and Orisha of the WindInterested in Women of Myth? Consider these retailers:Booktopia (Australia) Bookshop.org (US)Bookshop.org (UK)Contact your local indie bookstoreContact your local libraryThe book cover!Sound CreditsOur music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.An illustration by Sara Richard from Women of Myth of Ītzpāpālōtl, the Aztec Skeletal warrior goddess. She appears as a crown skull with green feathered hair surrounded by flames.Automated TranscriptDr Rad 0:16Welcome to The Partial Historians.Dr G 0:20We explore all the details of ancient Rome.Dr Rad 0:23Everything from the political scandals, the levels as the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.Dr G 0:34And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.Dr Rad 0:43Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Welcome to a very special edition of The Partial Historians. I am Dr. Rad.Dr G 1:00And I'm Dr. G.Dr Rad 1:02And Dr. G, we are joined today by two extra special guests. I know this is very exciting for us two extra special people are with us. And the mystery of way shall soon be revealed. I know what I mean, this is this is really a treat because we are joined by two members of the unofficial lady pod squad. And that is right we are joined by Jenny and Genn, who are the hosts of the extremely popular Ancient History Fan Girl podcast. And we are both fan girls of that podcast. Are we not Dr. G?Dr G 1:39We are so it's like super, super exciting. It's like ancient history girls unite.Dr Rad 1:43Exactly, exactly.Jenny 1:45The feeling is mutual.Genn 1:46Very mutual.Dr Rad 1:50It's actually it's actually really shocking that we have not had you on our show before this because it was many, many moons ago that we recorded Spartacus together. And I feel like it's because we're constantly in contact in terms of I constantly see what you guys are up to on Instagram and constantly listen to your show. And I kind of forget that we haven't actually talked in real life for quite some time.Jenny 2:11It's a parasocial relationship.Dr Rad 2:15It's indicative of this sad social media world that we live in. It's like, oh, I'm totally caught up with this person's life.Jenny 2:21Yes, we are in meshed. I have I frequently have that as well.Dr Rad 2:28And we are having them on the show today. Because extra excitingly, they have just written a book.Dr G 2:37Oh, my God.Dr Rad 2:39That's right. That's right. They are now not only the cohosts of an excellent Ancient History podcast, but they are the coauthors of Women of Myth: From Deer Woman and Mami Wata to Ama – oh see, I'm going to screw this up. Amaterasu and Athena your guide to the amazing and diverse women from World Mythology.Jenny 3:05Yay. That's our book. Thank you so much for having us on. This is so exciting.Genn 3:13Yeah, we're so excited to be here.Dr Rad 3:15No problems at all. And we probably should give a bit of a shout out because not only are you guys co authored this, but you also have some amazing illustrations by Sarah is it? Is it Rashad or Richard RichardJenny 3:25RichardDr Rad 3:25Richard, by Sarah Richard, which really do make the stories I think come alive.Jenny 3:31Absolutely. And Liv Albert wrote our forward canvas thatDr G 3:35I know. Oh, yeah. For people who might still be unaware – and that must be so few people out there – Liv Albert is the host of “Let's Talk About Myths, Baby”, which is an incredibly popular podcast from the unofficial lady pod squad.Jenny 3:50Indeed. I think it's just official at this point.Genn 3:55I think so. I think I'm going to have badges made.Dr Rad 3:58I know, I'm like how have we missed the opportunity to have matching T shirts made I don't know.Jenny 4:05We should all have a T shirt.Dr Rad 4:07Yeah, absolutely.Genn 4:08Okay. I'm on it.Dr Rad 4:10Done, there's our project. Alright, so let's get into it. Dr. G.Dr G 4:14Yes. So we're very excited about this book. And I imagine that many people who listen to our podcasts are going to be excited about it as well. So I'm wondering, just to get us started, what's the basic premise? I feel like the title gives a little bit of a hint. But I imagine there's more to be said on this front.Jenny 4:32Do you want to hit that one, Genn?Genn 4:35Oh, I'm gonna let you start.Jenny 4:37I mean, the basic myth, it's women and world mythology. It's, it's um, it's about women and also, you know, feminine presenting characters figures from mythologies around the world. And that includes, we had 50 different slots. And, you know, it's, it's actually there are many Goddesses in the book, but it's divided into three categories goddesses, heroines and monsters. So um, yeah, that's basically AndGenn 5:05And put those monsters in quotation marks, please.Dr Rad 5:07Yeah.Jenny 5:08Monsters, quote unquote. And we definitely go into what is coded monstrous in the book and talk about that a lot. So, um, so yeah, that's that's basically what the concept is.Dr Rad 5:20Excellent. Yeah, no, I must admit, I was really interested, by the way that you chose to set out your book. And I found it very, very fascinating. So you've got, as you say, those three categories of mighty goddesses, both heroines and formidable monsters using flesh rabbits, they're jumping, they're jumping all over my screen. Can you tell us how did you decide upon those categories when you were setting about writing this book?Genn 5:45So those categories were actually something that our publisher wanted. So it was it came down from, from the publishing gods.Dr Rad 5:54Yeah.Genn 5:55And that was, it might seem like that could be limiting. But actually, it was really fun. And it forced us to really look at who looked at how we were gonna break up the book and make sure that we had not just a whole bunch of goddesses, or not just a whole bunch of really great mortal heroines who did incredible stuff, or not just focus on some of my favorites and mythology, the monsters, because the monsters are just so fascinating and tell you so much about a culture. It's, you know, it tells you what people are afraid of. It also tells you about how people, the things people valued the things they didn't value. So, you know, there's a whole book that could be made of each of those sections. So it was kind of nice to have the publishing Gods on higher say, you know, what, could you give us a little taste of each?Jenny 6:48Yeah, it was, I think it provided some good structure.Dr Rad 6:52Yeah, definitely. Well, I must admit, I was particularly interested in it because I am a teacher, as I think some people might know. And in my Year 11, course, I get to teach a unit called “Women in Greece and Rome”, which is a comparative study of that. And I will actually always have a section on female monsters from mythology, because I think it's a great way to actually start off the unit, because, as you say, by looking at what a culture is afraid of, I think that actually tells you a huge amount about their attitudes to various things. But if you want to look at gender, for example, it gives you real insight into that.Jenny 7:27Oh, yeah, huge amounts.Genn 7:30Spoiler, it's almost always women with sexual agency, almost always.Jenny 7:34Frequently, it's not only that, there's, there's kind of a subcategory that's like, you know, medical fears, we found a lot of monsters who are kind of, you know, spirits or beings that interfered with, for example, childbirth, and you know, what we might call today, sudden infant death syndrome. You know, like, if this monster attack, they attack a woman in in birthing, or they attack a baby, it's as it's just born. And this is a way to explain deaths that might not be easily explained otherwise, in pre modern cultures. There's also monsters like, for example, there was one an Inuit monster that was basically like her, her. Her basically what she was, was a monster that tempted children out onto the ice. So she would like if a child wandered out onto the ice, she would grab it and take it underwater. So you know, that just speaks to a real fear about the environment and about, you know, children wandering away from their parents and winding up in dangerous situations, which I'm sure was, and still is, in a lot of places. A real danger, right. So..Dr G 8:41Yeah, I think that I think that's a really important point, because one of the things that you can see a connection with here is how sexual agency sort of leads into the childbearing aspect. And then the consequences of the childbearing fall upon the mother and the child in various ways.Jenny 8:58Oh my gosh, yeah, absolutely. Like there's there's all these like, kind of revolving fears around women, childbirth, child rearing that, that exists across many cultures.Genn 9:08And then you get it on the other end as well. You get a lot of older women characters are also monsters. I mean, famously Baba Yaga, right, the, the Slavic witch, the deep forest, whose house is on spindly chicken legs that can move around and she's kind of a chaotic, chaotic, and all fairy tales. Sometimes she'll do good things. Sometimes she'll do real bad things. Sometimes she'll put your head on one of her D posts. You also have like there's a cannibal ogress who also takes an age children. So there's a lot of like women who are not within the family unit who are older, maybe past childbearing years, also being dangerous, particularly if they have any kind of knowledge.Jenny 9:50Demonized, literally. Yeah.Dr Rad 9:52I feel like that's speaking to so many things as a person who's decided not to have children, mostly because I am massively afraid or the idea that I'm like, Yes, this resonates and also living in a culture where we're terrified of aging and women are just like not supposed to age. I think this can definitely hit home with a lot of people in our audience.Jenny 10:15Yeah.Dr G 10:18I want to be a crone. I'm looking forward to that part of my lifestyle.Jenny 10:22Listen, we're all gonna wind up on Team Cannibal Ogress eventually like we all know that.Genn 10:30Do we have to be cannibals though like I'm here for ogress, but do I need to be accountable?Dr G 10:34You can be a vegetarian if you so desire that is fine.Jenny 10:37You can be a vegan cannibal ogress.Dr Rad 10:41I'm actually I'm actually seeing our future now. You know, soon soon we'll all be of an age where society no longer wants to look at us and has no use for us. So we may as well just buy an apartment building that's entirely soundproof where our matching lady pod squad T shirts, and we'll just lock ourselves up in individual spaces and record sounds like basically what I'm doing now.Genn 11:02Overlooking the sea please.Jenny 11:05Genn can have a window in hers.Dr Rad 11:08You can have that, old crone.Jenny 11:10Her teeth are long; her windows are glorious.Dr Rad 11:16Yeah.Genn 11:18How else am I gonna warn people not to approach sometimes by like putting a head in the window. Like I need to have something to warn people.Dr Rad 11:25Yeah. We'll be an interesting version of the sirens. You know,Jenny 11:28Stop scaring the food away.Genn 11:32Alright, look, I'll be able to manipulate like you have the low lighting. We've got a few good years. Yeah.Dr Rad 11:38It's good to have a plan, you know, eventually, you know, society will cast you out.Jenny 11:45It's called retirement.Genn 11:46There's only so many Tik Tok filters, right. Like, we can't make the Tik Tok filters reality yet.Dr Rad 11:51Yes, exactly.Genn 11:54Yet.Dr G 12:00So I'm thinking about bringing things back to the to the topic at hand. I just sort of went out on a little imagination of being like, what would it be like to live in a giant apartment complex with ladies by the sea? And I was like, I think it would be good. I'm looking forward to that. So the illustrations in this book by Sara Richard, they're amazing. I have to say like, so evocative. And I'm really interested in your perspective. One, what was that like working together on this sort of stuff? And how do these illustrations in your view really enhance the themes that are coming out in the work?Jenny 12:35Oh my gosh, there's so much to say about that. Like, there's so much to so much like the it was very collaborative, you know, like we would – we would receive kind of line drawings Sarah and Sarah would do these like really funny line drawings and like kind of put little notes in them like skulls here and look at the little arrow you know, like more skull children hiding in the woods. Usually it was skulls though she'd there's like skulls and stories that actively don't have skulls, which I love. So many, I love that this as a as a fan of the cult of the severed head. I just love skulls, and so to Sara, so I think it really worked. But um, yeah, so like, she would send it in, you know, like line drawings, we would take a look and go back and forth on things and kind of collaborate on what the final result would be. And she so frequently just absolutely knocked it out of the park with very little communication, because she had her own process that was always like really in line with ours, because I think she had like really a similar kind of aesthetic to what we were thinking of, and what we were going for in the writing, you know, like, I'm not shying away from the gory details, for example.Genn 13:46So one of the things that, you know, we found when we were doing when we were doing the mythology, history, everything for this book is there's one word that comes up again and again, when you when you talk about women in, in these stories, and it's a word that I personally hate because it's such a loaded word. And we couldn't erase it from the book, because it's oftentimes integral to the, to the plot, and that word is beautiful. And so one of the things that we had to contend with…

Full show notes at the publisher

A black and white image of the ruins of Ancient Rome — **The Partial Recap - 420s BCE** Jul 13, 2023
Show notes

Another decade is gone and it's time for a Partial Recap! We run through what the ancient sources tell us about this decade. There are some real highs and lows!
*The Partial Recap 420s BCE*
If you are keen to for some more detail, you can jump into our narrative episodes at 134 – A Dry Period.
A view to the East over the Roman Forum with the Temple of Saturn on the left and the Palatine Hill on the right, showing the Temple of Castor and Pollux, the Arch of Titus, Santa Francesca Romana, and the Colosseum. Detail from the photograph by Nicholas Hartmann, June 1976. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons. Used under license.
Sound Credits
Our music was composed by the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman.
Automated Transcript
Dr Rad:
Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 420s BCE!
Dr G: I’m Dr G
Dr Rad: and I’m Dr Rad
Dr G: and this is our highlights edition of the 420s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 429 to 420 in an epitome of our normal episodes.
Dr Rad: Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee – but please be warned – the Roman world is a violent one.
Dr G: Get ready for a recappuccino.
**429 BCE**
In 429 BCE, the consuls were Hostius Lucretius Tricipitinus and Lucius Sergius Fidenas
Who could forget this year? Well, apparently a lot of people could – nothing was recorded in some of our sources
For others, it might be an issue of confused dates and actually LOTS of things happened that sound very similar to the events of 428
**428 BCE**
In 428 BCE, the consuls were Aulus Cornelius Cossus and Titus Quinctius Poenus Cincinnatus
Or maybe Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and Aulus Sempronius Atratinus
Come on Romans, get your consuls straight!
Veii started muscling in on Roman turf, perhaps with some help from the Fidenates
The Romans assembled an elite task force to look into their involvement and some men from FIdenae found themselves banished to Ostia for being decidedly shifty
For a bit of extra security, more settlers were sent to the colony of Fidenae
Rome was then hit by a severe drought, which led to the spread of disease amongst cattle and the citizens
In desperation, some superstitions started to spread amongst the populace and had to be reined in
**427 BCE**
In 427 BCE, the consuls were Caius Servilius Structus Ahala and Lucius Papirius Mugillanus
Putting the tough times behind them, the ROmans felt well enough to seek revenge against Veii
But there’s a procedure to this people! Someone call the fetiales so they can call on Jupiter and get this ball rolling
**426 BCE**
In 426 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Titus Quinctius Poenus Cincinnatus, Caius Furius Pacilus Fusus, Marcus Postumius Albinus, and Aulus Cornelius Cossus – whew!
The military tribunes with consular power set about this war with Veii – but they didn’t play well together, leading to some humiliating results on the battlefield
Crushed and angry, the Romans turned to their favourite solution – a dictator!
Mamercus Aemilius was chosen by Cossus, and he chose Cossus to be his Master of the Horse – making them the cutest couple in Rome
Meanwhile, Veii was bragging about their recent success to anyone who would listen, and Fidenae agreed to join forces with them once again.
Lucky the Romans had Mamercus to whip them all into shape. He and his band of trusty helpers worked together like a well-oiled machine to grind their enemies into the dust!
Once more, Cossus was a standout in the battle and Mamercus received a triumph
If this all seems very familiar, it is. Suspiciously so!
Compare the events yourself by revisiting our episode on 437 BCE
**425 BCE**
In 425 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Aulus Sempronius Atratinus, L. Quinctius Cincinnatus, Lucius Furius Medullinus and Lucius Horatius Barbatus.
Nothing much happened!
The Veientes and the Aequians were each granted truces
**424 BCE**
In 424 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Appius Claudius Crassus, Spurius Nautius Rutilus, Lucius Sergius Fidenas, and Sextus Iulius Iullus.
Games were held and the Romans were exceedingly polite hosts.
The tribunes of the plebs found the whole scene in the city far too peaceful and started haranguing the populace
Why weren’t there any military tribunes with consular power who were plebeians? WHY? They were really sick of patrician domination, especially because it didn’t have to be that way.
Their words finally had some effect, with some brave plebeians stepping forward to run for office. Will we finally get a plebeian magistrate?
**423 BCE**
In 423 BCE, the consuls were Gaius Sempronius Atratinus and Quintus Fabius Vibulanus.
The year began with the unfortunate capture of the Etruscan city of Volturnum by the Samnites
The Etruscans, seemingly exhausted by the endless conflict of this time, allowed the Samnites to enter their city and settle there
Tragically, the Samnites had no intention of sharing Volturnum, and they massacred the Etruscans in the night.
The Romans and their allies had their own conflict to deal with
The Volscians were running up and down museum stairs, punching slabs of meat and generally getting ready to invade
Gaius Sempronius was placed in charge of the Roman forces and felt very confident that Fortune would ensure victory
Unfortunately, Fortune did not organise the Roman army effectively and it looked as though they were going to loose – badly.
At this moment, a plucky plebeian decurion named Sextus Tempanius stepped forward. His incredible efforts and clever strategies with the cavalry helped to turn the tide of this almost impossibly lengthy battle
When he manages to return safely to Rome, Tempanius was celebrated but also put on the stand by one of the tribunes of the plebs, Caius Iunius.
Iunius grills Tempanius about Sempronius’ leadership – or lack thereof – but Tempanius refused to turn on his commander. This guy could do no wrong
Iunius was not restricting his attention to Sempronius
The failure of Sempronius opened the door for the tribune to put some other patricians on trial.
Marcus Postumius and Titus Quinctius, the brother of the great Cincinnatus, were tried for their underwhelming efforts at Veii a few years earlier
In a surprise twist, Quinctius totally stabbed Postumius in the back and blamed him for everything. Postumius received a hefty fine, whilst Quinctius walked away unscathed – although this may have had something to do with the fact that Cincinnatus was dying and no one could bear to disgrace his family in his final days!
**422 BCE**
After all the patrician scandal of the previous year, the Senate wisely decided upon military tribunes with consular power in 422.
The magistrates were Lucius Manlius Capitolinus, Q. Antonius Merenda and Lucius Papirius Mugillanus
There were also some new tribunes of the plebs, elected due to their heroics during the battle against the Volscians in 423 BCE – Sextus Tempanius, Marcus Asellius, Tiberius Antistius and Tiberius Spurillius.
One of the other tribunes, Lucius Hortensius, decided to prosecute Sempronius for his PATHETIC leadership against the Volscians – I think we all saw that one coming.
And so began a highly contentious debate – Sempronius: Cool Dude or Total Douchebag?
The other tribunes were not keen on this idea at all and tried to talk Hortensius out of the prosecution – Sempronius wasn’t bad, he’s just drawn that way!
After some serious arguments and slappy fighting, Hortensius finally conceded that Sempronius must be a pretty cool dude for people to care about him so passionately. Congrats Sempronius, on not being a total douchebag – at least officially.
The tribunes also score a win due to this whole affair – for once, everyone is very impressed with the way that they have conducted themselves. Hmm… is it weird that everyone loves the tribune of the plebs the most when they are letting a patrician off the hook?
And right at the end of the year, we abruptly switch from civil affairs to a military threat – this time coming from the Aequians….
**421 BCE**
In 421, the consuls were Numerius Fabius Vibulabus and Titus Quinctius Capitolinus
Fabius was sent off to war with the Aequians, but it seems like the Aequians weren’t really committed to this conflict and the whole battle was a bit of a cake-walk for the Romans and brought Fabius no glory whatsoever.
Just when it seemed like everything was settling down – the consuls had the GALL to ask for more administrative help – specifically, they wanted two more city quaestors.
Never ones to miss an opportunity, the tribune of the plebs pushed for half of the quaestors to be plebs – can we please stop giving the patricians everything???
The consuls and senate absolutely refused to give an inch – they’d rather DROWN in paperwork than let the plebs get a look in!
The tribune of the plebs therefore turned their attention to an agrarian law, which did not put the Senate at ease.
Thus, the Senate wanted to have consuls in charge, whilst the tribunes wanted military tribunes with consular power
The tribunes used their veto power to block consular elections, leading to an interreges
The chronology gets a little confusing here and it’s not clear where 421 ends and 420 begins, but it seems the the Roman state was in danger of falling apart.
Finally, Lucius Papirius Mugillanus was elected as interrex. Papirius tells off the senators AND the tribunes for being so stubborn and making Rome vulnerable to external attack.
He ends up getting everyone to agree to a compromise – the number of quaestors would be increased and they could be elected from either the patrician or plebeian class.
**420 BCE**
In 420 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, Titus Quinctius Poenus Cincinnatus, Lucius Furius Medullinus, Marcus Manlius, Aulus Sempronius Atratinus – all patricians, AGAIN
Atratinus was put in charge of elections for the quaestorship
Some of the plebeian candidates were well-connected, with relationships to previous tribunes.
When their family connections did not trump the consular connections of the patrician candidates, they called FRAUD- seeing Atratinus as the architect of the situation
However, Atratinus was a military tribunes and therefore untouchable.
His relative, Gaius Sempronius, was not. The tribunes of the plebs decided to go after him for the shocking Volscian campaign of 423 BCE.
The tribunes then tried to stitch Sempronius up by pushing again for an agrarian law – something he was known to oppose. If he continued to oppose the law, the plebs would hate him. If he didn’t, the patricians might not support his case as much.
Sempronius put the state before himself, of course, which meant that he was pretty much dead to the plebs. Even with the senate’s support, he ended up with a fine for 15 000 asses.
420 BCE was also the year of a Vestal trial. Postumia was accused of unchastity because she dressed a little to alluring and joked around far too much. Lucky for her, she was found innocent but the pontifex maximus still laid down the law – higher necklines and no more jokes for you!
To cap off the year, the Greek-controlled city of Cumae was captured by the Campanians – suggesting that there was some interesting movement of peoples taking place in this period.
Dr Rad: And that was the 420s in Ancient Rome… or was it?
Dr G: Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes. Jump in at *Episode 134: A Dry Period* to join us for a deep dive into the 420s BCE.
Dr Rad: Thanks for turning in to this Partial Recap!
For our full show notes and edited transcripts, head on over to https://partialhistorians.com/

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The Trials of Sempronius and Postumia Jul 06, 2023

Show notes

The Partial Historians are back in the 420s BCE and we are wrapping up the decade with some first-class DRAMA! At the centre of it all are the trials of Sempronius and Postumia. The only question is, can you handle it?Episode 139 – The Trials of Sempronius and PostumiaFake ElectionsThe year began with some classic conflict between the patricians and the plebeians. The tribunes of the plebs were FURIOUS when their relatives did not get elected as quaestors. There was only one possible explanation – election fraud!There was clearly one man to blame: Aulus Sempronius Atratinus. He had been in charge of overseeing the elections and he had rigged the results. Unfortunately, he was also a military tribune and therefore immune from prosecution. But that didn’t mean that his relatives were…The Trial of SemproniusThe tribunes set their sights on Atratinus’ cousin, Gaius Sempronius. Sempronius was the perfect target. He had been in charge of a DISASTROUS military campaign in 423 BCE. Time for vengeance!Jean Lemaire c. 1645-1655. Roman Senators and Legates. The picture shows senators walking though a square attended by lictors. Maybe they're on their way to a trial!Poor PostumiaSempronius was not the only person to find themselves on trial in 420 BCE. A Vestal Virgin named Postumia was accused of incestum. Apparently, her clothing was a bit too sexy, and she had a sense of humour. What a horrible combination! Think of the children!However, incestum was a very serious charge as it put the Romans’ relationship with the gods in jeopardy. It was no joke for Postumia either. Charges like this could lead to live burial for a Vestal.Tune in to find out whether Sempronius and Postumia manage to emerge victorious from their respective trials.A modern imagining of Vestal Virgin by sculptor Joseph-Charles Marin 1791-95. Courtesy of Mary Harrsch on Flickr. Things to Look Out For: Clear signs of our PartialityLengthy digressions on work apparelRed lipstick and mini skirtsPatrician morality par excellence Family rivalryImmense excitement to find a woman in our story – at last!Dr G’s immense expertise on Vestal VirginsNeed a recap on Sempronius? Check out our previous episodes on 423 BCE and 422-21 BCE. Our Players 420 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular PowerL. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 438, 425T. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Poenus Cincinnatus (Pat) Cos. 431, 428a, Mil. Tr. c. p. 426L. Furius Sp. f. -n. Medullinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 432, 425M. Manlius – f. – n. Vulso (Pat)A. Sempronius L. f. A. n. Atratinus (Pat) Cos. 428b, Mil. Tr. c. p. 428, 416 Tribunes of the PlebsA. AntistiusSex. PompiliusM. CanuleiusInterrexL. Papirius Mugillanus (Pat) Cos. 427, Mil. Tr. c. p. 422PontificesSp. MinuciusVestal VirginPostumiaOur SourcesDr G reads Plutarch, de Capienda 89f.Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.44.Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) Greenfield, P. 2011. Virgin Territory: The Vestals and the Transition from Republic to Principate [Doctoral Thesis, The University of Sydney]Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN 978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID 239349186.Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). Sound Credits Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de GuzmanSound effects thanks to Pixabay, Fesliyan Studios and BBC Sounds.A statue of a Vestal Virgin in the atrium Vestae (house of the Vestals) in Rome. Courtesy of Carole Raddato via Wikimedia Commons.Automated TranscriptAn automated transcript of this episode has been provided thank to Otter AI.Dr Rad 00:16Welcome to the partial historians,Dr G 00:20we explore all the details of ancient Rome.Dr Rad 00:23Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.Dr G 00:34And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.Dr Rad 00:43Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.Dr G 01:06Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr. G.Dr Rad 01:16And I am Dr. Red and I'm in a very special t shirt today. Dr. G. My All, roads lead to Rome t shirt.Dr G 01:26Are you hoping to sneak into my suitcase to come on a certain trip?Dr Rad 01:30I'm just dropping subtle hints.Dr G 01:34If I can fit you, I'll take you.Dr Rad 01:36Excellent. Excellent.Dr G 01:37So we have been tracing the history of Rome from the foundation, the traditional foundation date of 753 BCE. And in our last episode, I think if I remember rightly, we were dealing with 422 BCE, (and 421) and 421. So yeah, go we covered a lot of ground, because I remember the four horsemen being very- they were stand out for me. So this means that we're going to be talking about we're starting at 420. So real shame that we didn't record this in April.Dr Rad 02:15Yes, yes, that's absolutely right. We are recording about 420 today. So to briefly recap, 422 and 421, which is our previous episode, we're interested in good ol conflicts of the orders. Dr. G.Dr G 02:30Oh, yes. Well, I love a good conflict of the orders. hasn't this been going on for centuries now?Dr Rad 02:36Not quite centuries, almost a century I think. Only there were nearly there. We still got, you know, a couple of centuries to go. It'll fly by the flyway. We won't, we won't be dead at all. By the time we finish.Dr G 02:51Everything seemed to swill around the situation with Sempronius, one of the guys that's been sent out with some troops, and he's done seemingly a poor job. And he's then been taken on to trial for being such a bad general. And all of his, all of his lower down cavalry commanders have come to his aid being like, this guy was great. And he did the best he could in a tough situation.Dr Rad 03:16Yeah, absolutely. So we do have the situation with Sempronius, which is fallout from seemingly a not great military encounter that Rome had with the Volscians in 423 Sempronius, the unfortunate and perhaps incompetent leader of said military effort, and we're dealing with the fallout of that. And definitely we saw that some of his men came to his assistance when it looked like he was going to be in danger of being prosecuted or something like that. And then we had even more conflict of the orders. I mean, that wasn't really conflict for the orders, except that it was interesting that it was this fight happening with Tribune's of the plebs who were our four horsemen, and they'd been involved in the battle in the previous year. And then Sempronius, who was a patrician, we then got more explicitly into the conflict of the orders in the following year, where we had this debate about could a plebeian become a quaestor? And we had so many interreges, they were coming out of our ears, Dr. G.Dr G 04:18And it's been a really weird time. Rome is definitely trying to figure itself out politically, militarily. It's been a rough ride.Dr Rad 04:27Yeah, it really has. But there was the resolution was they ended up coming full circle. And going back to the compromise that was put forward, right at the beginning of this debate, which was that you can have a plebeian quaestor. Sure, as in they can run for election, but Will anybody vote for them? Time will tell Dr. G.Dr G 04:49Are they gonna be able to put together a sophisticated and well funded campaign? Doubtful. No.Dr Rad 04:55All right, we'll see yeah that's really all we need to know about 421 So let's go into 420 V cDr G 05:30so 420 BCE for key listeners who enjoy the smoking of the green leaf now is your time to light up because this is happening all year. We have military tribunes with consular power and many of them I might add our first cab off the rank is Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus a family we know well, yes, the lineage is continuing. And he's had a couple of positions ahead of this one so we've seen this guy before. He is not a surprise. Now. We also have Lucius Furius Medullinus, also previously has appeared and most recently served together with Cincinnatus as another military Tribune in 425. Yeah, so they've been buddies before and here they are, again, five years later.Dr Rad 06:33Lovely. It's cute. Yeah,Dr G 06:36We also have Marcus Manlius Vulso, a man for which I don't have any more detail than his name.Dr Rad 06:43No, that is that's an unusual name that level so isn't it?Dr G 06:48Yeah, I'm not sure it is. I've heard before Yeah. Well, so it's not standing out for me one way or the other. We might have encountered one in the past but I'm not sure.Dr Rad 06:56Yeah, the Manlius I recognise.Dr G 06:59The Manlius gens, they're doing well for them. Yeah, very manly all the way down their line. Yeah. And then Aulus Sempronius Atratinus. Also, previously a consul in 428. And also apparently a military tribune in the same year.Dr Rad 07:18Excellent. So getting the gang back together.Dr G 07:21Yay. So there are military Tribune's and then I also have some tribune of the plebs as well. Oh, we have Aulus Antistius, potentially a relation of Tiberius Antistius, the plebeian tribune of 422. So we get another one of the same gens coming through Sextus Pompilius. Yep. Most famous because of the Pompilius gens, which means you definitely of Sabine extraction. Yeah. And Marcus Canulinus, and this is known as a plebeian gens.Dr Rad 08:05Why ,I have him as Marcus Canuleius.Dr G 08:09it might just be my mispronunciation. I mean, I have clearly two variant spellings in my notes. Now that I know that I'm looking closely at them. So apparently the most famous bearer of the Canuleius name was Gaius Canuleius who was tripped into the plebs in 445. So somebody that we have encountered before, and is the one who introduced the plebiscite on a marriage the repeal to ban the marriage between patricians and plebeians.Dr Rad 08:46Well, that's right. I was like I was looking at that name going, it's so familiar. That's a huge thing to have in your family.Dr G 08:53He's Yeah, so this guy seems to be a comes from the same gens as that really famous tribune of the plebs from a couple of decades ago at this point, and the family seems to lose prominence after that. So this I don't know if this is the last Canuleius we're gonna see but-er, You heard it here first.Dr Rad 09:14Well, they're hanging in it. They've got they've got a fingernailDr G 09:19clutching on to the tribune of the plebs for dear life.Dr Rad 09:22Yeah, this is where I think 421 and 420 get a bit blendy because I also have an interrex listed for this year, which is Lucius Papirius Mugillanus who we talked about in our last episode, because he's the one that came in and like, stop this madness. We can't keep having all these interreges. This is crazy.Dr G 09:45This is madness. I indeed also have Mugillanus down as interrex for this year. But also, and I have to say, most excitingly, I also have a Pontifex Maximus and a Vestal virgin.Dr Rad 09:58I know I have not bothered to do any reading about this because I know that I've got the world leading expert on Vestals and I was like, I don't need to do anything.Dr G 10:11I'm happy to take the reins on this tale of woe such as it is.Dr Rad 10:15Exactly. Which means you finally have you know, source material. Very exciting.Dr G 10:20Look, you'd be surprised about how little I have even.Dr Rad 10:25I'm on board whenever you have.Dr G 10:26It is a tough year. I'm in a really fellow section in terms of source material. As you know, Dionysius of Halicarnassus is perenially missing and even Diodorus Siculus, who is unreliable at the best of times, but we do like him is also currently unavailable. SoDr Rad 10:42that's okay, you know, it's actually this year is actually structured well for us in that most of the action that you wouldn't be aware of happens first, then we get to the Vestal.Dr G 10:52Okay, that's exciting. So I'll just tell you the names of these characters and yeah, well let you get into like the the main action for the year which I'm completely at, like lacking. So we've got Spurius Minucius is our Pontifex Maximus. Yeah, and our festival virgin is Postumia.Dr Rad 11:14Okay, exciting times. Alright, so let me tell you about 420 BC Dr. G. Nobody remembered anything because of all that stuff they were smoking – no, I'm just kidding.Dr G 11:27that explains a lot about what's going on with my source material.Dr Rad 11:31So allegedly, we had this period, unfortunately, we're on there where there are and maybe the 420. Who knows where there were lots of interreges, but they managed to resolve that situation. And at the end of that whole process, they come out with military tribunes with consular power. And it's all patricians all the time, Dr. G.Dr G 11:51Colour me surprised. I'm shocked. I'm really shocked.Dr Rad 11:55I know. So one of these military tribunes with consular power Atratinus Atratinus What do we prefer?Dr G 12:03Oh, look, I like Atratinus. But that's just me really. Don't feel wedded the fact that we learned Latin in Australia, it's probably means that we're butchering it a lot. Certainly, I know others would pronounce it differently.Dr Rad 12:21Like there's nothing I enjoy more than butchering an ancient language. All right, I'll go to Atratinus or Atratinus then oversees the election of quaestors which had been the sore point the previous year in terms of who gets to be a quaestor and that sort of thing. So there were some keen for plebeians in the race so the tribunes finally be like Yes, finally someone's actually running for something – amazing!Dr G 12:47they got up and said like we're going to abolish the whole thing because you none of you are even trying what's the point of view even having a chanceDr Rad 12:55Exactly. You're embarrassing us you're embarrassing the whole day in class, whatever that is. One of them was a guy called Aulus Antistius. Son of a tribune of a pleb No, son of a tribune of the plebs.Dr G 13:13Okay, so the Antistius that I have listed down as the tribune of the plebs is quite possibly either running for quaestor as well, or running for quaestor instead?Dr Rad 13:25I would say it's probably his son. Yeah, I would say it his son.Dr G 13:31Okay. Somebody lower down on our hypothetical cursus honorum that we don't exist.Dr Rad 13:36And then and then we also have a brother of a tribune of a tribunes of the plebs, the brother of Sextus Pompilius.Dr G 13:43Oh, what's his name?Dr Rad 13:44I don't know. Actually, it just says it's just as his brother. I mean, yeah.Dr G 13:50Pompilius the other one, we'll call him Pompilius Secundus.Dr Rad 13:54Bro Pomp. Bro Pompey, that's what we're going to call him. Yeah, so though these guys are obviously connected to people in power, because you know, they have these connections with guys who have either held the office of Tribune or are currently holding the office of Tribune. The people still couldn't resist the lure, the glow, that was coming off the patrician candidates because they have the blood of mighty consuls running in their veins. I mean, you can see it in their blue veins.Dr G 14:3…

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Special Episode - Quo Vadis (1951) - Part Two Jun 22, 2023

Show notes

This episode we return to the ‘Golden Age of Hollywood’ with a classic sword and sandal epic, Quo Vadis (1951). This film is available through many streaming platforms and we highly recommend revisiting it.In Part Two of two episodes on Quo Vadis, we delve into our analysis of the film. If you have not listened to Part One, you might want to check it out for the context. Special Episode – Quo Vadis (1951) – Part TwoThe Wars That Shaped the MovieHollywood loves a sure bet and MGM started working on their own adaption after WWII. The legacy of that war can be seen in the depiction of Nero and the Roman people. Nero seems to be a mixture of Mussolini and Hitler, and the use of eagles, fasces and the ‘Roman salute’ must have also dredged up unpleasant memories.The newly emerging Cold War also had an impact on this movie, with the plot dealing largely with the clash of freedom (Christians) vs tyranny (Romans). The immoral, irreligious Romans could easily be seen as the ‘godless Communists’, whereas the Christians and converts stand for the American way of life. The film was made during the hunt for Communists in Hollywood itself. The first round of the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) had started in 1947 and round two was destined to begin in 1951. These were dark days for many in the industry.Black and white portrait photo of Peter Ustinov as Nero in Quo Vadis. He sits in a thoughtful pose and appears unhappy about something. Source: Pinterest.HUAC arrives in HollywoodThe head of MGM (Louis B. Mayer) and the male lead of Quo Vadis (Robert Taylor) were intimately connected with the HUAC hearings. Mayer had testified in 1947. Robert Taylor may not be a familiar name, but he was a massive star for MGM in the 30s and 40s. He was also known for his conservative politics and would be the only prominent Hollywood star to name names in front of the Committee. This might all seem to add up, but his testimony had just as much to do with his loyalty to Mayer, a fellow conservative, and MGM as his anti-communism.Taylor had been forced by MGM and the Office of War Information to star in Song of Russia (1944), a pro-Russian film designed to promote friendly feelings about wartime alliance. Taylor had been dead against starring in the film in the first place, but he eventually went through with it so that he could be released by the studio to fulfil his military service.Taylor's TestimonyTaylor was asked to testify in closed door sessions in front of HUAC early in 1947. He was quite frank regarding his political views, and Song of Russia might have come up. Taylor did not hold back as he thought this testimony would be kept private. When it was used to bolster the presence of HUAC, Taylor was less than pleased. Taylor and his wife Barbara Stanwyck were conservatives, but they did want to abuse their position as celebrities. They never wished to discuss politics in public again.Black and white portrait photo of Robert Taylor as Marcus Vinicius in Quo Vadis. He wears a Roman style military brestplate and gazes into the middle distance thoughtfully.Source: PinterestTaylor would have to make one more notable exception on that front. Louis B. Mayer, like so many other studio heads, wanted to protect the movie industry. This was business, and with television on the rise and the 1948 ruling against studio-owned theatres, the ‘biz’ was facing enough obstacles in the late 1940s and early 1950s. They did not need the public thinking that Hollywood was spreading Communist ideology. More significantly, there is a distinctly antisemitic tone to the HUAC hearings, which must have made the largely Jewish heads of studios nervous, no matter how politically conservative they were.Specifically, Mayer needed Taylor to testify a second time so he could back up MGM’s official line regarding Song of Russia. It was just a romance! Certainly not wartime propaganda…. HUAC also really wanted Taylor to appear again, purely for the publicity. They were correct: the press (and a lot of female fans) flocked to see Taylor’s testimony.Taylor seemed to be uncomfortable when asked to name any suspected Communists in the industry. He was hesitant, but he did it. In the atmosphere of Hollywood at the time, Robert Taylor was celebrated by most for his patriotism. Whilst the best days of his career would soon be behind him after Quo Vadis and his testimony, this had nothing to do with his appearance before HUAC. However, these days, Robert Taylor is largely forgotten or remembered as a ‘friendly witness’.Join us for our take on this rollicking ride through Neronian Rome and 20th century politics!Sound CreditThanks to the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.Our SourcesBabington, B.; Evans, P. W., Biblical Epics: Sacred Narrative in the Hollywood Cinema (Manchester University Press, New York: 1993).Cyrino, M., Big Screen Rome (Blackwell Publishing, Oxford: 2005).Elley, D., The Epic Film: Myth and History (Routledge and Kegan Paul, Suffolk and London: 1984).Joshel, S.; Malamud, M.; Wyke, M., ‘Introduction’, in Imperial Projections: Ancient Rome in Modern Popular Culture, ed. S. Joshel, M. Malamud & M. Wyke (John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore and London: 2001), 1-22. And this what Dr Rad was quoting in the episode!Malamud, M., Ancient Rome and Modern America (Wiley-Blackwell, Oxford: 2009).Mayer, D., Playing Out Empire: Ben-Hur and Other Toga Plays and Films, 1883-1908, A Critical Anthology (Clarendon Press, New York: 1994).Scodel, R.; Bettenworth, A. Whither Quo Vadis? (Malden, Massachusetts, Blackwell Publications: 2009).Skwara, E. “Quo Vadis on Film (1912, 1925, 1951, 1985, 2001): The Many Faces of Antiquity.” Clássica (São Paolo) 16, no. 2 (2013): 163-174.Solomon, J., The Ancient World in the Cinema (Yale University Press, Michigan: 2001).Wyke, M., Projecting the Past: Ancient Rome, Cinema and History (Routledge, London: 1997).Wyke, M., ‘Projecting Ancient Rome’, in The Historical Film: History and Memory in Media, ed. M. Landy (Rutgers University Press, New Jersey: 2001), 125-42.You Must Remember This (7 March, 2016). The Blacklist Part 5: The Strange Love of Barbara Stanwyck: Robert Taylor.Lygia and Marcus Vinicius posed against a pink and blue clouded sky. This looks like an official promo shot for Quo Vadis. Source: ievennAutomated TranscriptDr Rad 0:18Welcome to this special episode of The Partial Historians. I'm Dr. Rad and normally Dr. G and I discuss the history of Rome from the founding of the city. But today we begin a deep dive into Quo Vadis in 1951. We ended up talking for so long about this epic that we have split the episode into two parts. Seems appropriate given the original film had an intermission. This is part two of our coverage of Quo Vadis, in which we will focus more on our analysis, the film and its betrayal of history. We hope you enjoy this sword and sandal classic as much as we did.So in a previous episode, we've covered the background and plot to quiver strategy. Let's now try and get a little bit more analytical and delve into the film in more detail. So I'm going to change gears a little bit dodgy because I feel like I had enough narrow for a moment. So first of all, I'm going to mention something which I have mentioned before when we've been talking about these films like “The Robe” and “Demetrius and the Gladiators”, we have to think about why Quo Vadis. Why now. And that is very much to do with the threat of a television you.Dr G 1:34Oh yes. How dare they don't watch things on the small screen when you could watch things on the big screen?Dr Rad 1:40Yes. So as we talked about before, the 1950s is going to be the era of the widescreen technology that is officially however, launched with the robe in 1953. Now Quo Vadis is a large scale film in the sense that it's long, it's saturated with colour and excess. It's the kind of thing that you're not going to get on a small square black and white screen in your suburban home. So it is the kind of film that Hollywood believes is going to encourage people to come to the movies. And they're right. Because they're really running scared because it's not just television, as I am sure I hope you've again mentioned before, it's also the fact that they have lost a lot of power in 1948. With the anti monopoly laws, were they the movies used to control everything, you know, from the production of the film to the editing to the distribution. And monopoly laws of 1948 means that they lose their grip on the distribution. Oh, no, yeah. And so that's a significant chunk of their business. They're really, you know, it's only a few years later, and this has been the model for quite some time. So they want movies like Quo Vadis, which they feel sure are gonna get people to come and watch them because that's how they're going to make them money. So that's a bit of the movie business stuff. Now, specifically, the context of the 1951 film being one of the earliest sword and sands films. I need to throw this at you. World War Two.Dr G 3:10Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, it's definitely a thing. I mean, it's over. By the time we get to this film it is and, like, there must be filming, I guess in 1950. So we're not far out. I was kind of surprised. But also like pleasantly surprised by just like, it's all on location in Cinecitta. And you can see from the shots in and around when they're doing sort of like chariot work and things like that. Yeah, they're definitely in Italy.Dr Rad 3:40And doing chariot work?Dr G 3:42Yeah, like Mediterranean pines, like they're definitely in the right place. They're on location.Dr Rad 3:48Yeah, definitely.Dr G 3:49It's pretty impressive.Dr Rad 3:50Yeah. I mean, look, they're often parallels drawn between Roman emperors and the dictators of the 20th century. However, this film, I think, more than most was, I think, trying to lean on that. Okay, I think that it's meant to be a bit of a weird blend of both like Mussolini, the fascists, and also the Nazis that we see here. Because the Nazis, of course, had been very anti religion. So I think you can kind of see the persecution of Christianity that's happening here and the seeming decadence of Rome as being you know, tying into that a little bit. But also, of course, Mussolini himself had tried really hard to draw a connection between his Rome and the Rome of the ancients. How awkwardly phrased was thatDr G 4:40Ancient Romans and the modern Italy usually were Yeah,Dr Rad 4:44yeah. So the point where he put on an exhibit in 1937, called the Augustan exhibition of the Roman spirit. So he was really dwelling on that. And she had she had her course also had been constructed by Mussolini. So there's an age interesting parallels there. Obviously, there's a lot of Roman symbolism which the fascists use, like the eagles and the fasces. And they think the salute, although that's been pretty much debunked by Martin Winkler as being a bit of a misunderstanding.Dr G 5:15Yeah. But the Roman salute that's given in this film is visually resonant. Like there wouldn't be many audience members who, who hadn't seen some Nazi propaganda, you'd be like, oh, oh, I see what you did there.Dr Rad 5:28Yes, exactly. Yes. And there's also a very clear accent divide as often is the case in these films we've talked about so a lot of the heroic Christian freedom fighting liberty loving characters are American. And the evil people, evil imperialist bastards. British. So of course, we have Peter Ustinov playing, or very memorably playing the role of Nero, whereas we've got people like Robert Taylor, very American, playing the heroic person. Now, I know he is a Roman character, but we know he's all you can.Dr G 6:07You can tell from his accent that he's going to switch sides.Dr Rad 6:09Exactly, exactly. And then the plan that Nero outlines the way that he says he's going to kill all the Christians is very Hitler-esque, in that he says, he's going to eradicate them from the face of the earth to the extent where people will doubt they ever existed.Dr G 6:28Yeah.Dr Rad 6:29Yeah. Which is creepily like a genocidal plan. And also the model of Rome that you mentioned. So you know, you said that Nero was going to burn Rome to the ground and rebuild it.Dr G 6:40Well, there is a model displayed in this film.Dr Rad 6:42Yes, yes, yes. And the shot of Nero standing over, I think, was very much meant to recall shots of Hitler, looking at Albert Spears plan for Germania.Dr G 6:55Oh, interesting,Dr Rad 6:56like the New BerlinDr G 6:57because I was really interested in the map of Rome itself, because I was like, the reason map, there is a 3D map of Rome, right? Yeah, that looks very much like this model. And I'm wondering if it's the same one, and I haven't been able to, I haven't had enough time to look into that.Dr Rad 7:11I actually probably could have found the answer for you if I had known beforehand, but I forgot to check that out.Dr G 7:17But I'm fascinated. So I'm gonna keep investigating that.Dr Rad 7:21Yeah. And they're all these lines that Nero delivers throughout the film, which I think are really playing on those Hitleresque sort of things like he says to Petronius at one point, the world is mine and mine to end. Oh, yeah. And also we know that he is someone who has murdered his own father. So we already know that he is a monster. And therefore he from the beginning comes across as a tyrant like he's obviously very amusing because it's pretty used. But he is meant to be a monster. ButDr G 7:57I think there is something amazingly believable about Ustinov's performance, though, whichDr Rad 8:02Oh, yeah.Dr G 8:02Which makes this film stand out, as opposed to some others where the Imperial figure is designed to be the ultimate bad guy. Yeah. But is played in such a way as to not make it sympathetic enough to believe that a real human could be that way. Yeah, was something about Ustinov's performance is very naturalistic in the way that you like you can you get the sense that this is a mind that is maleable, that that he has particular drives and he's trying to figure out how to best bring them to life?Dr Rad 8:37Yes.Dr G 8:37And he doesn't conceive of himself as evil he conceives of himself as misunderstood.Dr Rad 8:43Yeah and also that idea of him having to be like on a larger scale again is almost not to like yeah,Dr G 8:51He sees himself as removed from the common people in part because the position that he has to fulfil is like as Emperor, I have this kind of duty to be very different from everyone else. So we talked a lot about how things have to be uncommon.Dr Rad 9:05Yes, I was gonna say I actually have the exact quotes I think it's such a good one Peter Ustinov says I seek because I must exceed the statue of man in both good and evil I seek because I must be greater than man for only then will I be the supreme artists, let it be wonderful. Or let it be awful so long as it is uncommon? Yeah.Dr G 9:29This this is incredible sort of rationale in that Yeah. Which is I think if it was just read off the script, it might not you might not buy it. It's like it's very much the performance of Ustinov that brings backDr Rad 9:42He's just yeah, he's performance stands the test of time, but you can't always say about the circumstance. But yeah, the whole idea and the way that the other characters talk about the Christians like prepare saying, give room not one victim but hundreds. Who are these people, they just spies, our temple and our gods, they prophesied that the end of the world shall be caused by fire. Well then let it come true. Let it in for them, like it is that kind of idea of like scapego…

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The Four Horsemen Jun 15, 2023

Show notes

This episode, we are dealing with 422 and 421 BCE. The previous year had been a very dramatic for Rome. They seem to have come perilously close to a disastrous military defeat. Luckily, they had the four horsemen on their side…“The Four Horsemen” is our affectionate name for the group of cavalry commanders who dismounted and led the Roman army on foot when everything turned against them during the battle against the Volsci in 423 BCE. The most notable amongst them was a plebeian hero Sextus Tempanius.In 422 BCE, these men were elected to serve as plebeian tribunes. But will they continue to be exalted by the Roman people? Or will they demand change from the patricians and become just as troublesome as many of their predecessors?Join us as we explore the fallout from the Volscian conflict.Episode 138 – The Four HorsemenThings to Listen Out For: Bad Italian accentsAequians coming out of nowhereAngry patricians acting like your parentsToo many interreges to count (or name apparently)Moderatio everywhereNeed a more detailed recap of Sempronius' misdeeds? Check out our previous episode on 423 BCE. Our Players 422 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular Power L. Manlius – f. – n. Capitolinus (Pat)Q. Antonius (T.f. – n.) MerendaL. Papirius (L.?f. – n.) Mugillanus (Pat) Cos. 427Tribunes of the Plebs(Ti.) Antintius(M.) Asellius (Ti.) Spurillius Sex. Tempanius L. Hortensius Ex-Consul C. Sempronius – f. – n. Atratinus (Pat)Our Players 421 BCEConsulsCn. (or N.) Fabius Q.f.M.n. Vibulanus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 415, 407T. Quinctius T.f.L.n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 405InterrexLucius Papirius MugillanusThe “Horses of Saint Mark”, also known as the “Triumphal Quadriga” or “Horses of the Hippodrome of Constantinople”. The bronze sculptures are thought to date to the second or third centuries CE and modelled on much earlier statues from classical Greece c. fourth century BCE. The precise date is uncertain. Photo credit to Tteske via Wikimedia Commons.Our SourcesDr G reads Fasti Capitolini for 422 and 421 BCE; Festus 174L; Tacitus Annals 11.22; Val. Max. 6.5.2.Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.42-43.Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)Drogula, Fred K (2015). Commanders & command in the Roman republic and early empire. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 978-1-4696-2314-6. OCLC 905949529.Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) Holloway, R. Ross (2008). “Who Were the Tribuni Militum Consulari Potestate?”. L'Antiquité Classique. 77: 107–125. doi:10.3406/antiq.2008.3716. ISSN 0770-2817. JSTOR 41812945. Archived from the original on 2022-03-17.Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN 978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID 239349186.Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). Richardson, J. H. (2017). “The Roman Nobility, the Early Consular Fasti, and the Consular Tribunate”. Antichthon. 51: 77–100. doi:10.1017/ann.2017.7. ISSN 0066-4774. S2CID 148605873.Sound CreditsOur music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects are courtesy of Pixabay and Orange Free Sounds. Automated TranscriptDr Rad 0:16Welcome to The Partial Historians,Dr G 0:19we explore all the details of ancient Rome.Dr Rad 0:23Everything from the political scandals, the levels as the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.Dr G 0:33And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.Dr Rad 0:43Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.Dr G 1:12And I am Dr. G. And we are following the history of Rome from the founding of the city.Dr Rad 1:19Boy, are we and you know what? We're getting so close to 100 years of the Republic.Dr G 1:25Maybe we should do a special episode 100 year reap recap on the early republic.Dr Rad 1:29Totally doable. It's only taken us what seven years to get here. That's gonna be fine. Yeah, stay tuned. Watch this space. Yeah. So Dr G, in our grand narrative of Rome's history. Last episode, we were up to 423 BCE, and it was actually kind of a memorable year.Dr G 1:47Yeah, some things happened, particularly with Sempronius Atratinus, who was one of the consuls for that year.Dr Rad 1:55He was groped into waging a military campaign, and it didn't go so well for him against the Volscian strategy.Dr G 2:04And he seems to have come into a bit of a cropper with the cavalry in some regard, maybe not paying attention to where they are maybe getting cut off from them. Yeah. And anyway, one of the military tribunes saves the day, Tempanius.Dr Rad 2:17Yeah, one of the cavalry decuriones.Dr G 2:21I love a good decurio.Dr Rad 2:22Yeah, yeah, he is the saviour of the day. And it really looked for a second like Rome was going to be slaughtered. And instead Tampanius Very unusual name managed to turn the tide, at least to the extent that it was a draw, that it was safe to run away, and find a nice place to get another day as they like to say so. And then, of course, when they got back, everyone was like, what happened out there and they tried to work Tempanius into testifying against Sempronius for like his gross incompetence, but he refused, Dr G. A man of honour through and through.Dr G 3:00And I think what we're gonna see as a bit of foreshadowing for what's coming up is some of the fallout from 423 in this year coming up.Dr Rad 3:07Yeah, I think the tribune of the plebs are gonna like walk away from such a ripe case of patrician incompetence. How could they?Dr G 3:16Stand firm tribunes of the plebs! Stand firm.Dr Rad 3:20Yeah. So, with that under our belts, let's dive in to 422 BCEDr G 3:32422 BCE! What are time to be alive for a Roman.Dr Rad 3:37Is it though? Do you have any source material?Dr G 3:42I mean, it's been thin on the ground for a while. Let's just say that the Fasti Capitolini has a little bit of information.Dr Rad 3:52Okay.Dr G 3:53I have a little excerpt from Valerius Maximus, which might be exactly the same excerpt as I had for the previous year.Dr Rad 3:59I was gonna say!Dr G 4:00Diodorus Siculus is missing. And Dionysius of Halicarnassus who can say who can say?Dr Rad 4:07Siculus is missing now?Dr G 4:08Well yeah, yeah.Dr Rad 4:10You know what, I'm starting to think that the sources aren't missing, you're just careless.Dr G 4:16I've decided to no longer prep for episodes. I'm just rocking up.Dr Rad 4:20Alright, well, with that in mind, shall we perhaps just start with the magistrates? And then I will give you what Livy has to offer.Dr G 4:28Yeah, yeah, I'm super excited. So what I've tried to do to compensate for my absolute lack of source material is, first of all, consult Broughton, who has the list of who's in what position is the year that we even have any idea about-Dr Rad 4:40Raunchy.Dr G 4:43Me and Broughton. I mean, it might be 1950, but I'm happy. And from that point onwards, I might just interject every now and then with a little bit of tidbit about names.Dr Rad 4:56You know, my Latin is subpar. So let's do it.Dr G 5:02Alright, so we've got some military tribunes with consular power.Dr Rad 5:06Okay.Dr G 5:07Sometimes you might hear if these, listeners, as referred to as “consular tribunes”, that's fine. Those two titles are interchangeable. We've got Lucius Manlius Capitolinus. We've got Quintus Antonius Merenda. And Lucius Papirius Mugillanus.Dr Rad 5:27You got my hopes that for a second there, Dr. G, when you said that we had military tribunes with consular power, and yet, I feel like every name on that list is patrician.Dr G 5:37Yes, yeah. Although Antonius is a plebeian name, so Quintus Antonius Merenda, “Antonius” is a plebeian gens,Dr Rad 5:46Right.Dr G 5:47But there is like problems with this because our literary sources – unreliable though they may be and controversial for their record rejections into the past, etc, etc, all the usual caveats. The feeling from the ground from those writers looking back at this period is that the first plebeian tribute with consular power doesn't get elected until 400 BCE, so we're a little ways away from that at the moment. Yeah, so who is this Antonius? I don't know.Dr Rad 6:18Hmm. I wonder if he's a distant relative of Mark Antony.Dr G 6:22Surely. Does he have the nose? Let's check for the nose. So they are our military tribunes.Dr Rad 6:30Yeah.Dr G 6:30Then we've got a nice little list of tribunes of the plebs.Dr Rad 6:35I thought you might say this.Dr G 6:36Yeah. Which is pretty exciting. We've got a guy called Tiberius Antintius, so we're expecting plebeian names in this section.Dr Rad 6:43For sure.Dr G 6:44Marcus Asellius. Tiberius SpurilliusDr Rad 6:49Sounds like a pastaDr G 6:49or Spurillus.Dr Rad 6:51Less like a pasta.Dr G 6:53And a name that may be familiar to you, Sextus Tempanius.Dr Rad 6:57Well, of course, I mean, you know, he was the hero of the previous year, of course, he's gonna wind up being a tribune of the plebs.Dr G 7:03The hero of the previous year now in charge on a political front, not a military front.Dr Rad 7:08There is a real pattern with these plebeians that rise to the top in our sources, and that is they have this moment in the sun and they always end up being a tribune afterwards.Dr G 7:19Yeah, it's a classic crossover. It's the – what would be the modern equivalent – the influencer to twitch host? I don't know.NiceI'm not sureDr Rad 7:30I didn't even know what half those words meant. So good job.Dr G 7:33I'm not going to pretend I understand any more than what I just said. There are other notables for this year, obviously, Gaius Sempronius Atratinus, consul of the previous year, is going to have a bit of a feature, and somebody called Lucius Hortensius. And you may think to yourself, well, you might know what's going on the narrative. I've got no idea what's going on with Hortensius in the narrative. But apparently, this guy is also a plebeian, or at least that's what the name suggests.Dr Rad 8:04It does. It does.Dr G 8:06But I'll go into the etymology of that later.Dr Rad 8:09Good. Good, because I also have something to say about that name. Okay, so the narrative of all of this, whilst the consuls are away, the plebeians decide to elect this array of tribunes, according to Livy. So this is where we get our Tempanius, our Asellius, our Antistius, and our Spurillus, okay. Now, all of these men, not just Tempanius had allegedly been chosen to lead the cavalry, when they had been forced to dismount from their horses and therefore quite frankly, become infantry against the Volscians.Dr G 8:43So all of these troops and some of the plebs are former cavalry leaders? Okay.Dr Rad 8:49YeahDr G 8:49Oh boy.Dr Rad 8:50In fact-Unknown Speaker 8:51The four horsemenDr Rad 8:51I was gonna say, the four horsemen.Dr G 8:53Is there an apocalypse coming to Rome.Dr Rad 8:55It was almost an apocalypse, let's be honest. So, I have actually looked into this a little bit. And the commentary that I'm consulting Ogilvie says that this is such a weird detail for Livy to have included it must be true.Dr G 9:12So strange.Dr Rad 9:13Yeah, I think I think he's referring to the whole idea of obviously them, you know, dismounting and being chosen to lead in some capacity. And that would make sense because Tempanius couldn't possibly I don't think have been the only person who was in charge of the cavalry that particular day.Dr G 9:29Ah, he was the only one who turns up in the story.Dr Rad 9:31Until this moment, Dr G. And he was surrounded by people anyway. The senate sensed – because they've so got their finger on the pulse of the people – but there's some negativity in Rome after the whole Sempronius affair.Dr G 9:47The vibes are offDr Rad 9:48The vibes are off. And they're like you know what? Let's just not have consuls. It'll make them feel better.Dr G 9:58I mean, we'll just put patricians in power. But not consular power.Dr Rad 10:03That would be an insult too great. Salt, wounds, bad idea. So they decide instead on military tribunes with consular powers and it's thus that we get the names that you mentioned earlier, some of which are very familiar like Capitolinus.Dr G 10:21Capitolinus is a pretty familiar name. We've come across those a few times. This is the first time I think we've come across an Antonius MerendaDr Rad 10:27Agreed, that is a weird name.Dr G 10:29But Lucius Papirius Mugillanus, he was consul in 427.Dr Rad 10:34Totally,Dr G 10:35And seems to have been related to a guy who was consul in 443 and another Papirius.Dr Rad 10:42Yeah, we've heard the name Papirius. We've definitely heard Mugillanus before.Dr G 10:46Yeah, so there is also a generational legacy here where it's like there is a flow through of patricians from certain famines coming into power, apparently, according to our sources.Dr Rad 10:56Yeah. And therefore, this makes it an entirely meaningless gesture on behalf.Dr G 11:03Put all our friends into power to keep you happy. Are you happy?Dr Rad 11:07We'll just label it differently. Anyway, so at the start of the year, one of the tribune of the plebs, who was not mentioned as being part of the Four Horsemen gang – Lucius Hortensius – decides he's going to go after Gaius Sempronius, the idiot of the previous year who had been such a terrible commander, take the floor, Dr. G.Dr G 11:30So Lucius Hortensius is also a tribune of the plebs?Dr Rad 11:33He is, but he's not from the original gang.Dr G 11:37Okay, so he's not one of these four horsemenDr Rad 11:40He is not.Dr G 11:42And this may explain why he's doing the prosecution, because he represents a slightly different political faction, maybe?Dr Rad 11:48Oh, he definitely does. Like there's a whole narrative around this, but I thought you might want to say something about his name.Dr G 11:54Yeah, I do. I do. Yes. So the temptation is always to be like, Hortensius, it must come from “hortus” “garden”.Dr Rad 12:03Ah!Dr G 12:04Yeah, a beautiful Latin wordDr Rad 12:06Didn't even occur to me because my Latin is so poor.Dr G 12:08But that is apparently not where this name comes from. It is thought to come from an ancient Roman town called Hortense or Hortenses.Dr Rad 12:18Okay.Dr G 12:20That is somewhere in central Italy. But, sadly, location unconfirmed.Dr Rad 12:26Typical. Well, I have a little bit more to add to that, which is that although the name Hortensius probably sounds very familiar to you, and I, because this family becomes quite well known in the later Republic.Dr G 12:41These – this family will make a reappearance. This particular Hortensius seems to be the earliest mention of a Hortensius we get in our sources, but scholarship generally discounts this guy as being real.Dr Rad 12:55I was gonna say, to say, I know how you feel when I say that these people aren't real. Is that to make reality? You know, bend. But yeah, there is no other Hortensius mentioned in the sources for hundreds of years.Dr G 13:09Yeah. So scholars tend to err on the side of caution here and be like, this guy might not be real.Dr Rad 13:17Well, I mean, especially because we know what the Romans are like with their names.Dr G 13:21Well, yeah. So the…

Full show notes at the publisher

Quo Vadis (1951) - Part One May 25, 2023

Show notes

This episode we return to the ‘Golden Age of Hollywood’ with a classic sword and sandal epic, Quo Vadis (1951). This film is available through many streaming platforms and we highly recommend revisiting it.In Part One of two episodes on Quo Vadis, we examine the context for the film and the plot. Quo Vadis (1951) helped to ignite Hollywood’s passion for ancient epics in this decade. It was a smash hit with some of the legendary stars of the era, including Robert Taylor, Deborah Kerr and Peter Ustinov. This film is not only epic in terms of length, but in terms of all the aspects that you could discuss in connection with it.Special Episode – Quo Vadis (1951) – Part OneResistanceThe tale itself has a lengthy backstory which takes us all the way back to 19th century Poland. Henryk Sienkiewicz wrote the book in a serialised format between 1894-1896. Poland had been going a through a tough time over the course of the preceding century, in the sense that it did not exist independently between 1795 and 1918. During this period, the Catholic Church was crucial in preserving Polish culture. Sienkiewicz often wrote historical novels that would lift the spirits of his fellow poles, and Quo Vadis was no exception. For Sienkiewicz, the triumph of Christian characters such as Lygia and Ursus (meant to be from Lugii, i.e. Poland) represent the ultimate triumph of Poland over its cruel oppressors, with Nero representing nations such as Russia, Austro-Hungary and Prussia. Sienkiewicz’s novel was well-received, and was therefore adapted into toga plays, operas, and several films. The earlier film versions were made in Europe, including the notable 1912 silent classic.Join us for the fascinating background of the 1951 film and stay tuned for Part Two!Quo Vadis – Roll Call!There are a LOT of characters to keep track of in a film of this length, so if you need a handy reference, check out the cast list on IMDB.The main people that you need to know for our episode include:LygiaFictional main lady love interest. Christian, hostage-turned-adoptive daughter of Roman general Aulus Plautus, and his wife, Pomponia Graecina.Marcus ViniciusFictional main manly love interest. Roman, not Christian (yet). Militaristic, aggressive to start, turns all moral as the film progresses.Lygia (Deborah Kerr) and Marcus Vinicius (Robert Taylor) in the courtyard of her adoptive parents' home in Rome.Source: FilmAffinity.Emperor NeroHistorical figure. Really was Roman emperor from 54-68 CE. Known as the last emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty. Really was terrible, although maybe not quite as unrelentingly awful as many suggest – including this film. Probably not as amusing as Peter Ustinov!A gold coin showing the obverse portrait of Nero.Bust of the historical NeroPeter Ustinov as Nero in Quo Vadis (1951)Poppaea SabinaHistorical figure. Elite Roman lady. Complicated love life. Winds up as Nero’s second wife. Called beautiful but awful in the surviving sources. We say – the jury is out on that one. Typical fun, adulteress type character used to contrast to the ‘good girl’, Lygia. Historically, she is murdered by Nero while pregnant with their child. In Quo Vadis, Nero strangles her. An awful demise in reality and in film.Statue of the historical Poppaea Sabina found in Olympia, GreecePatricia Laffan as Poppaea Sabina in Quo Vadis (1951)Petronius (Gaius Petronius Arbiter)Historical figure. Served as governor of Bithynia and was consul in either 62 or 63 CE. Did a decent job, but in his personal life seems to have made pleasure his main goal. Dubbed the ‘Arbiter of Elegance’ by Nero. Accused of being part of a conspiracy against Nero and suicided whilst chatting casually to friends. Thought to be the author of the novel, The Satyricon, which is a very unusual piece because it does NOT focus on the elite and is pretty … eye-opening. Possibly makes fun of Nero through the gross figure of Trimalchio, a freedmen who has become a wealthy show-off with no taste. Close associate of Nero. In the movie, Petronius is Vinicius’ uncle and an elegant, witty, intelligent member of Emperor Nero’s inner-circle. He also has a weird obsession with the enslaved Eunice…From left: Petronius (Leo Genn) attempting to advise Nero (Peter Ustinov) in a scene from Quo Vadis (1951). Image source: FilmFanaticUrsusFictional character. Bodyguard of Lygia, Christian convert. Super strong.PeterThat’s St Peter to you! Follower of Jesus Christ. Christian (to state the obvious). Supposedly was crucified upside down, making him a martyr, which Sienkiewicz worked into his novel. Has a very famous domed building named after him. Pomponia GraecinaHistorical figure. Elite Roman lady who was related to the Julio-Claudian dynasty. Mentioned by Tacitus for her ballsy behaviour. She wore mourning for DECADES after Julia was bumped off by Messalina, which could have led to her own downfall, but Claudius did not punish her. (Julia Livia, granddaughter of Tiberius, daughter of Livilla and Drusus Caesar – mother of Rubellius Plautus). Her husband was told to deal with her privately after she was charged for believing in an “alien superstition”, which some have taken to mean she dabbled in Christianity. Good choice to turn into a character with Christian leanings in Quo Vadis! Adoptive mother of Lygia in the film. V V Virtuous. Aulus PlautiusHistorical figure. Really was a Roman general who won an ovation for a campaign in Britain. Really married to Pomponia Graecina. ActeHistorical figure. An imperial freedwoman that teenage Nero fell for HARD, much to his mother’s displeasure. Suetonius reports that she was one of the few to attend the interment of his ashes, so her devotion in the film tracks. In the film, not a Christian but still a good woman as she is virtuous and loyal. As the movie is set late in Nero’s reign, it makes sense that he has moved on from her by now. Sympathetic to Christians, so that’s something. Is in love with Nero but keeps it real with him. Helps him to commit suicide when everyone else has abandoned him. A good choice, as Nero’s suicide was supposedly aided by his slave.EuniceFictional enslaved woman. For reasons that make absolutely no sense, she has a crush on her master, Petronius. He eventually loves her back – depends on the version of Quo Vadis that you consult as to how that happens. It's fair to say, we're not keen on her storyline.Sound CreditsThanks to the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.Our SourcesBabington, B.; Evans, P. W., Biblical Epics: Sacred Narrative in the Hollywood Cinema (Manchester University Press, New York: 1993).Cyrino, M., Big Screen Rome (Blackwell Publishing, Oxford: 2005).Elley, D., The Epic Film: Myth and History (Routledge and Kegan Paul, Suffolk and London: 1984).Joshel, S.; Malamud, M.; Wyke, M., ‘Introduction’, in Imperial Projections: Ancient Rome in Modern Popular Culture, ed. S. Joshel, M. Malamud & M. Wyke (John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore and London: 2001), 1-22. And this what Dr Rad was quoting in the episode!Malamud, M., Ancient Rome and Modern America (Wiley-Blackwell, Oxford: 2009).Mayer, D., Playing Out Empire: Ben-Hur and Other Toga Plays and Films, 1883-1908, A Critical Anthology (Clarendon Press, New York: 1994).Scodel, R.; Bettenworth, A. Whither Quo Vadis? (Malden, Massachusetts, Blackwell Publications: 2009).Skwara, E. “Quo Vadis on Film (1912, 1925, 1951, 1985, 2001): The Many Faces of Antiquity.” Clássica (São Paolo) 16, no. 2 (2013): 163-174.Solomon, J., The Ancient World in the Cinema (Yale University Press, Michigan: 2001).Wyke, M., Projecting the Past: Ancient Rome, Cinema and History (Routledge, London: 1997).Wyke, M., ‘Projecting Ancient Rome’, in The Historical Film: History and Memory in Media, ed. M. Landy (Rutgers University Press, New Jersey: 2001), 125-42.You Must Remember This (7 March, 2016). The Blacklist Part 5: The Strange Love of Barbara Stanwyck: Robert Taylor.The classic film poster for Quo Vadis, the Roman and Christian epic! Image course: Wikipedia.Rome on ScreenInterested in how Rome is depicted on screen? Check out our back catalogue where we cover films and television.Automated Transcript Edited for clarity! The AI does seem to have challenges with both Latin and Australian accents!Dr Rad 0:08Welcome to this special episode of The Partial Historians. I'm Dr. Rad and normally Dr. G and I discuss the history of Rome from the founding of the city. But today we begin a deep dive into Quo Vadis 1951. We ended up talking for so long about this epic that we have split the episode into two parts. This is part one of our coverage of Quo Vadis, in which we will examine the context and the plot. We hope that you enjoy this sword and sandal classic as much as we did.Dr G 0:54Hello, and welcome to this very special episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr. GDr Rad 1:03And I am Dr. Rad.Dr G 1:05And we are so excited because we're going to be talking about the film, the film,Dr Rad 1:12IndeedDr G 1:13Quo Vadis.Dr Rad 1:14Yes. And now we have talked about this on someone else's podcast before but it was years ago really a long time ago. We've never done it just the two of us. So we thought we would revisit because as our time of recording it is Easter.Dr G 1:29It is Easter. And we did have a special request come through from one of our supporters. So shout out to you.Dr Rad 1:37YeahDr G 1:38This is Quo VadisDr Rad 1:40IndeedDr G 1:40From us.Dr Rad 1:41So Quo Vadis is one of the biggest blockbuster films – sword and sandals – of the 1950s it really kicks off the decade.Dr G 1:53I was gonna say this is 1951.Dr Rad 1:55Exactly.Dr G 1:56And boy is the bar set high. Because this film is probably what just as long as “The Fall of the Roman Empire”. But better, like I didn't get bored.Dr Rad 2:04Ah, that's good to hear! Well see, I never know how people are going to respond to all these different ones. But yes, it was definitely I think the film that kind of set the tone for the decade you know, had Hollywood chasing the ruins constantly like this is where we're going to make money people. This is how we're going to save our industry. But it didn't just come out of nowhere, Dr. G. So I thought before we actually talk about the 1951 film, we have to acknowledge some of the background.Dr G 2:35Ah a true historian you areDr Rad 2:37Can't help myself, because this is actually based on a blockbuster novel.Dr G 2:44Yes. And the success of the novel is part of what engenders the film.Dr Rad 2:48Exactly, exactly. So it was written in the 19th century like right at the end, it was appearing in sort of a serialised version between 1894 and 1896. Originally written in Polish, because the author was Polish. And unsurprisingly, so far makes sense. Yeah, his name was Henryk Sienkiewicz. I think that's how you pronounce it anyway. And he he was known for writing quite a few novels, basically historical novels, generally ones that I think, showed the Polish people in a way that was going to lift morale for the people of his own time. And that I think, has a lot to do with what Poland was dealing with at this point in time. And I'll come to that in a moment. But essentially, in this particular book that he was writing, it's meant to be that the Christians kind of stand for, like the very earliest version of the Catholic Church, which had come to be very important for representing Polish interests against the other nations that wanted to control Poland at this point in time.Dr G 2:48Fair enough. Fair enough.Dr Rad 3:58Yeah. But I think also, it was also maybe sparked by the fact that there were large scale excavations going on in Rome at around the time that he was writing as well, from about 1870 to 1914.Dr G 4:14There's lots of things being uncovered. And lots of exciting finds being shared across Europe.Dr Rad 4:19Indeed, yeah, because Poland, Poland has such a sad history, there is no independent Poland between 1795 and 1918, essentially, but resistance continues throughout this entire time. And the Catholic Church is just crucial for trying to preserve Polish culture, when it's going through one of those classic periods of oppression where, you know, occupying powers are saying, “Hey, you can't speak your language. No, not even in school”, you know, so they're trying to preserve their identity and that sort of thing. So, one of the main characters of the novel is a girl called Lygia.Dr G 4:57And would I be right guessing that this is supposed to be a stand-in for Poland?Dr Rad 5:00Yes. As well as the blonde hair, yeah, as well as her kind of servant Ursus. So both of them are meant to be representing Catholic Poland and the Polish people.Dr G 5:15Nice. All right.Dr Rad 5:17And the fact that Nero does not end well in this novel is meant to be a bit of a threat, I think, against the various countries that are exploiting Poland at this point in time, namely, Russia, Austro-Hungary, and Prussia, not to be confused with Russia.Dr G 5:37All of whom would be utilising Roman symbolism as part of their regalia as part of their politics. So this is not a huge jump for the imagination of the Polish reader to be like, “Oh, I see where you're going here.”Dr Rad 5:52Yeah, definitely. So I just thought that was really interesting to note and Quo Vadis, did become an international bestseller was published in many different translations. So lots of people end up becoming familiar with this particular work. In fact, in 1905, Sienkiewicz, our author, was awarded the Nobel Prize for LiteratureDr G 6:12Well, but not for Quo Vadis? For something else?Dr Rad 6:15I actually feel like it was for Quop Vadis, but now I'm doubting myself. Maybe it's just the way I've organised my notes where I'm like Quo Vadis, international bestseller, awarded Nobel Prize. Either way, he's a good writer.Dr G 6:31He's doing well for himself.Dr Rad 6:32Yeah, people are captured by the story. And it ends up being adapted many times into plays into operas. And eventually, there are multiple film versions of this particular novel. I thought it might be a good point, however, to pause and talk a little bit about when this is supposedly set. The context.Dr G 6:54Yeah, so we've got – we're in the late period of Nero's reign, from what we can tell.Dr Rad 7:02Yeah.Dr G 7:03There is the story of Agrippina, his mother, already having been knocked off.Dr Rad 7:09Yes.Dr G 7:09He's also gotten rid of Octavia.Dr Rad 7:13First one.Dr G 7:13Yes. And he's now married to somebody called Poppaea.Dr Rad 7:19Yes. So Nero, Nero is someone who's pretty infamous. But just in case you don't know who the Emperor Nero is – and that's completely fine – he is part of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, draw their descent from well, I mean,Dr G 7:33Julius Caesar, ultimately, but most people leverage the connection to Augustus.Dr Rad 7:38I was going to say, it's really Augustus they're concerned about and one of the Claudian gens.Dr G 7:43One of those Claudians. One of them in there somewhere.Dr Rad 7:47That blended together in this amazing McFlurry of a family. And Nero when he comes to power in 54. See, he is a teenager, about 16 years old about to turn 17 when he comes into power. And if you're thinking to yourself, I don't think I trust teenagers with that much power. You'd be correct.Dr G 8:10Yes, you shouldn't. And we don't recommend putting them into power that young because, well, there's plenty of historical evidence to suggest they cannot handle the heady heights of power at that age.Dr Rad 8:21Yeah, particularly when you have a mother who, whilst amazing is extremely dominating, like Agrippina the Younger, who may very well have committed murder of her awn uncle slash husband, in order to make you emperor.Dr G 8:35Oft!Dr Rad 8:36Yeah. So in spite o…

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The Tenacious Tempanius May 11, 2023

Show notes

Welcome to 423 BCE and your introduction to the one and only Sextus Tempanius! You may not know his name just yet, but we're pretty sure you'll be as impressed with him as we are. Suffice it to say, 423 BCE is one of the more interesting and dramatic years of the decade. After a confusing tangent about the Samnites and Capua brought to us courtesy of Livy, we return to Rome and war with the Volscians. The Roman forces are led by the patrician, Gaius Sempronius Atratinus. However, Sempronius might be placing too much faith in the gods when it comes to war…With fortune seemingly turning against the Romans, a plebeian hero steps into the spotlight. Sextus Tempanius brings the cavalry to the rescue of their forces. Join us to find out how the Tenacious Tempanius made the Romans swoon.Episode 137 – The Tenacious TempaniusA re-enactor dressed as a Roman cavalryman. The gear is not necessarily historically accurate for this period, but it gives the vibe!Image courtesy of Jacqueline Ross via Flickr.My Kingdom for a Decurio!Sextus Tempanius is described in some of our sources as a decurio. In this context, a decurio is a commander of a decuria of cavalry. A decuria is the Latin term for a division of ten. So a decurio is a low level commander in charge of the ten riders that make up his decuria. Although we can't be precise about the exact scope of the Roman cavalry in this period of the early Republic, there is later thought to have been 30 lots of ten riders to a cavalry legion (300 riders). So for three hundred horsemen there were thirty internal leaders. The other important division was the grouping of 3 decuriones (3×10) horsemen together into a formation known as a turma. Depending on the battle situation, the Romans had the capacity to divide a legion down to collectives of 30 or 10 horsemen with their own command structure. Things to Listen Out ForSeveral theories about how Capua received its’ nameConfusion over places starting with VThe laziest Etruscan resistance EVERStandards left lying aroundRoman cheerleading practiceFriends turning on each other like real douchebagsWeird parallels to the Second Punic War Patrician trials – about time!Want to refresh your knowledge of 424 BCE? Check out our previous episode.Our Players 423 BCEConsulsC. Sempronius – f. – n. Atratinus (Pat)Q. Fabius Q. f. M. n. Vibulanus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 416, 414Tribune of the PlebsC. IuniusDecurioSextus TempaniusOur SourcesDr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnass Roman Antiquities 12.6.5; Val. Max. 3.2.8.Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.37-41.Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)Brill New Pauly entries for “Decurio” and “Verrugo”Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) Oakley, S. P. 2016. ‘Didactic Livy: Review of Livy’s Political Philosophy. Power and Personality in Early Rome by A. Vasaly’. The Classical Review 66:2, 431-433.Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). Smith, W. 1854. Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography “Verrugo”Sound EffectsThanks to the wonderful Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music. Sound effects courtesy of Fesliyan Studios and Orange Free Sounds and BBC Sound Effects.North face of the Mausoleum of Glanum, southern France, showing a cavalry battle, c. 40 BCE. This relief shows cavalry in action well after the period under discussion in this episode, but it does give you a sense of the movement and how Romans in the late Republic conceived of the cavalry.Source: Wikimedia Commons. Photographer: CancreAutomated TranscriptLightly edited for clarity!Dr Rad 0:27Hello, dear listeners, and welcome to another episode of The Partial Historians. I am one of your host, Dr. Rad.Dr G 0:36And I am Dr. G. And we have been tracing Rome's history from the founding of the city for years now. And we're many years into Rome's history as well. So that's exciting news. We're keeping pace with the events as they happen.Dr Rad 0:52We are I mean, the 420s are just like streaming by me. I can't I feel like I can't keep up with moving so quickly they are flying by I think this is a real indication of what happens when we lose some of our source material.Dr G 1:05Particularly Dionysius, who is, shall we say, more of a reverse somewhat of a gas bag? Indeed, I hope he does come back though. I'm looking forward to hearing from him again.Dr Rad 1:16It's been too long.Dr G 1:17Look, I suspect we've only got fragments from here on down.Dr Rad 1:22I know but whenever he pops in to say hello, you know, gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.Dr G 1:28Prepare to be excited because he might be popping in with a fragment in this very episode.Dr Rad 1:34Well, you know, what, if any years I wouldn't be surprised that it's this year that we're about to discuss, which is 423 BCE. But before we get into 423 Dr G., oo god, so rhymy. I think we need to pause and recap. And see what happened in 424 BCE.Dr G 1:53Well, I will really just be throwing back to you. Because 424. I had almost literally no evidence to the extent that I had to talk about what was Rome's history of founding colonies in the very early Republic as far as we can discern.Dr Rad 2:08Look, fair enough, fair enough. Look 424 It wasn't perhaps the most memorable of years we've had quite a few of these weird years in the 420s where it seems like kind of not a lot might be going on. But we did have a little bit of our old favourites, which was troublesome tribunes. There's nothing that we love more than a troublesome tribune.Dr G 2:31It's true. It's true. We do like troublemakers of the plebeian persuasion.Dr Rad 2:37We definitely do. So we had some tribunes that were complaining about the lack of plebeians that were earning themselves magistracies, even though technically, with this option of military tribune with consular power, technically, we should be seeing plenty of plebeians in power.Dr G 2:59And yet somehow they are absent. The concerns are real.Dr Rad 3:04Yes, exactly. And the tribunes were so fed up with the lack of plebeians even running for office, that they were threatening to say, You know what, let's just get rid of this whole idea altogether. And we'll just have the patricians forever, and that would maybe make you happy. Wouldn't it?Dr G 3:21It's such a typical patrician solution to a problem.Dr Rad 3:25No, that was the tribune.Dr G 3:26Oh no!Dr Rad 3:27Yeah, they were like, you wait, we're just so like, it's it's actually worse that we have the option. And yet nobody's doing it. Because then that seems to imply that actually, we're useless. But he is worthy? Yeah, exactly.Dr G 3:41Why are we even here, guys, if you're not going to make use of us?Dr Rad 3:45Precisely. And so they're proposing that and with finally, finally, they have got through to the plebeians. And we actually have some opinions allegedly running for office, and campaigning on the kinds of measures that we would normally see, plebeians run with so things like, I think that they're campaigning on some sort of land allocation policy, you know, that maybe we're going to share it out a bit more fairly than we have in the past. That there's also going top be a tax placed on the landowners, you know, classic, lower class kind of stuff.Dr G 4:18You know, we should tax the people that have money, not the people who don't have money.Dr Rad 4:23Yes, although, once again, I have to stop myself, Dr. G, I'm falling into that old pattern. We have to remember that some of the plebeians are very wealthy. It's just that they don't have a stranglehold on power, like the patricians seem to have.Dr G 4:38This is true. It does turn out that it's more about who you were born to, rather than how much wealth you possess.Dr Rad 4:47Exactly. And that opens up all sorts of doors like priesthoods and consulships and whatnot.Dr G 4:53Alright, so that's 424 BCE,Dr Rad 4:57That is 424.Dr G 4:57Okay, so let's let's hit the ground running With 423 BCE.Dr Rad 5:13All right for 423 BCE, Dr. G. And since I know that Dionysius is still breaking your heart with his broken pieces of source material, I'm going to let you tell me who the magistrates are for this year.Dr G 5:25Oh, well, thank you. There is a little bit of interest when it comes to who we've got in our sort of the players for this year. So we've got a couple of consuls, which are a nice change of affairs really, we haven'tDr Rad 5:40Well, that's sad to me though because it suggests that all that stuff I just talked about didn't come to pass.Dr G 5:47Those people put themselves up for election and did not get voted in.Dr Rad 5:51This is the thing. I get this is where our source material makes no sense. How would they be running for office? If it's not military tribunes with consular power? Yeah, can't run for the consulship. SoDr G 6:01Precisely. I mean, we do have real issues with the source material. There is no doubt about it.Dr Rad 6:07Yeah, we really do.Dr G 6:08Yeah, the plebeians not being allowed at this stage as far as we're aware to run for the consulship. So maybe the elections got a little bit messy, and maybe they changed their minds about what kind of elections they were having, you know, I'm just trying to paper over what are our gaping holes of logic and no material?Dr Rad 6:26Maybe, maybe there's no such thing as the consulship at this point in time.Dr G 6:32Horror. Shock.Dr Rad 6:34Blasphemy. Anyway, I'll skate over that.Dr G 6:37Well, okay. So there are two men who are more in charge than anybody else. One of them is Gaius Sempronius AtratinusDr Rad 6:46Hmmm, welll I recognise these names.Dr G 6:50Well, Atratinus is an interesting name, because that raises the question about whether patrician and plebeian as it happens, because Atratinus, in the later centuries of the Republic is an exclusively plebeian name but, in this early period, we're pretty sure that this is a patrician name only.Dr Rad 7:15Dashed my hopes Dr G., how will I carry on for the rest of the episode?Dr G 7:19Well, I hope you can pick yourself up and continue on but if you can't, I'll just keep going through the roll call sheet. That will be the whole episode. Please save yourself. So Atratinus definitely has plebeian flavour about it, which might explain some of the narrative choices of our analysts historians for the previous year, we like this guy, plebeian. And the scholarship seems to fall down on the side of probably not at this stage. But later on, we'll get the reemergence of this name under a plebeian gens. So that will happen. So our second console is Quintus Fabius Vibulanus.Dr Rad 8:10YeahDr G 8:11And so this family has come up quite a bit. So one of the fabulous Fabii is back. And we've seen quite a lot of the Vibulanii as well. But this guy doesn't appear to have held any positions as yet. So this seems to be his first foray into the consulship. So that's exciting news for him.Dr Rad 8:30It is indeed.Dr G 8:31Go Quintus! We also have a named attribute of the plebs, a guy called Gaius Iunius. Who I suspect you might have more to say about, and we also have a prefect. So a military position, a guy called Sextus Tempanius.Dr Rad 8:54Yes, I have much to say about this young man. Very, I'm very excited to talk about him. But I love the fact that he's named as a prefect because it gives me images of him in a very sharp navy blazer with little badges on it. Maybe that's just because I'm a school teacher.Dr G 9:11He also is apparently a decurio, more specifically of the cavalry under Sempronius. So this roll call sheet hints to me that there is some military action that happens in 423 BCE. But realistically, all I've got are a couple of fragments, one from Dionysius of Halicarnassus – praise be – a little snippet from Valerius Maximus. And then I'm basing all the rest of my knowledge from a little bit of extra scholarship research that I've done.Dr Rad 9:45Well, allow me allow me to step in because this is a banner year for Livy. I mean, we haven't had this much detail and I don't even know how long honestly, who knew that 423 room was the place to be.Dr G 9:59I'm excited now. Livy does tell a good story. So I'm going to strap myself in.Dr Rad 10:03He does so you can jump in with your fragments when appropriate, but not a moment earlier.Dr G 10:09Noted.Dr Rad 10:11All right. So, as you've noted, I have the same consuls that you do. So this is good. So we start off our story with an Etruscan city, Dr. G. In fact, one I don't really recall us talking much about in its original form, and that is Volturnum.Dr G 10:27Ah, okay. So in contrast to you already, I have reference to a Volscian city called Verrugo.Dr Rad 10:36Oh, okay.Dr G 10:37And this, they may be the same place.Dr Rad 10:39Well, okay, so Volturnum actually is now Capua. When I say now, I mean, obviously in the Roman sense later on,Dr G 10:52Capua is in Campania, isn't?Dr Rad 10:55It is, yes.Dr G 10:57Okay, that's much further south than the hypothetical Verrugo that I have reference to, which is to the south east of Rome, but past the Frascati sort of region. So you've got to go beyond the hills. There's those volcanic hills to the southeast of Rome, and you go a little bit further past them. Keep going southeast, and then you hit Verrugo, which today, we think, is in the location of modern Colle Ferro, and Sacco. But it's not as far as Capua.Dr Rad 11:32I'm so glad that you have travelled so extensively in Italy because I'm just sitting here going I know nothing about geography.Dr G 11:40Look, I wishDr Rad 11:40Just as well I'm a history teacher!Dr G 11:44Maps, schmaps, maps,Dr Rad 11:45Maps, schmaps, colouring pencils, don't need them. Anyway, no offence for any geography teachers out there actually love colouring pencils. So apparently, this now later in time, like Livy's time, is Capua. And the reason why Livy kicks off with this account is because this city is captured by the Samnites, Dr G.Dr G 12:08Hmm, all right, I'll hold on to that detail.Dr Rad 12:11Indeed. Now Livy goes on a bit of a tangent explaining how this city gained the name of Capua and he has several theories. Typical Livy so the first is that it's from “cappis”. Oh, sounds bad. Oh, catDr G 12:28Is it from cat piss because that's a bit-Dr Rad 12:30No no, I'm going to try that again. Cap piece. Still sounds bad. From its champagne country, and that's not champagne, like the drink. But basically,Dr G 12:42Just sparkling cat-pissDr Rad 12:43It's sounding more and more appetising every time. I really should have tried saying this out loud before I tried to explain it to you. But apparently, what Livy is trying to get at here is some sort of word which means like open country or some sort of plain or battlefield, something like that, okay,Dr G 12:54I suspect then we might be talking about very different places then. Because Verrugo comes through in the Latin from “verruca” which, which is not what you might suspect that is a wart on the side. But like it's yeah, like, almost exactly the same. But from this idea of a “locus editus asperque”, which is a “high-lying rough place”. So this kind of like mountainous rocky outcrop. So it almost sounds like the very opposite.Dr Rad 13:41Yeah, could not be more different. Because I also have other p…

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How the Plebeians Got Their Groove Back Apr 13, 2023

Show notes

In this episode we dig into the details (or lack thereof!) of 425 and 425 BCE. Good news for the plebeians is that when there's not much going on in Rome, they get a chance to just live life a little!Episode 136 – How the Plebeians Got Their Groove BackWhat's in a tribune?What’s the deal with military tribunes with consular power? We consider the etymology of tribune (the Latin tribunus) to better understand this facet of the political structure. This also means tackling the big question of: who were the magistrates in this period of history and how much can we take from our later writers like Livy and Dionsysius of Halicarnassus?Games, glorious games!The time is ripe for Rome to hold games in honour of the gods. There's no battle to be had and diplomacy in the local region seems to be taking a turn for peace. What better time to invite everyone over for some sport and festivities?Jean-Léon Gérôme 1876. Chariot Race. This is an imagined scene of a Roman chariot race at the Circus Maximus at the height of Rome's power (we're not up to that point in Rome's history in this episode!). The Circus itself is thought to be significantly old – dating back potentially as early as the kings.Things to listen out forThe horrifying lack of detail from the sources Dr G has to studyLivy writing a history of peace rather than warShocking revelations about Igor's (our resident eagle) paycheckThe return of the Claudii.Our Players 425 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular PowerAulus Sempronius L. f. A. n. Atratinus (Pat) – Cos 428bLucius Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat) (Broughton Cin. *3) – Cos 428b, military tribune with consular power 438Lucius Furius Sp. f. – n. Medullinus (Pat), Military tribune with consular power in 432Lucius Horatius M. f. M. n. Barbatus (Pat)Our Players 424 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular PowerAppius Claudius Ap. f. Ap. n. Crassus (Pat)Spurius Nautius Sp. f. – n. Rutilus (Pat)Lucius Sergius C. f. C. n. Fidenas (Pat) – previously cos. 437, 429; military tribune with consular power 433Sextus Julius – f. – n. Iullus (Pat)Our SourcesDr G reads Diodorus Siculus 12.81.1, 12.82.1Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.35.Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)Drogula, F. K. 2017. ‘Plebeian Tribune and the Government of Early Rome‘ Antichthon 51: 101-123Sound EffectsThanks to the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music. Additional sound effects from BBC Beta.Greek black figure vase of a charioteer with four horses. This Athenian vase is obviously not a Roman artefact, but it's thought to date to c. 410-400 BCE which is very close to the period we explore in this episode. Gathering together for games and chariot racing was common across the Mediterranean. The Roman were likely inspired or influenced by ideas for games and races from the Greeks and the Etruscans.Automated TranscriptDr Rad 0:16Welcome to The Partial Historians.Dr G 0:20We explore all the details of ancient Rome.Dr Rad 0:23Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.Dr G 0:34And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.Dr Rad 0:43Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I'm Dr. Rad and this intelligent, ravishing creature next to me isDr G 1:06Dr. G. Yay, I feel very complimented. Is it my sequined dinosaur t shirt?Dr Rad 1:12I mean, if that doesn't scream, intelligent and ravishing, I don't know whatDr G 1:16Ah, you're so kind!Dr Rad 1:19So I'm thrilled to be back that back again, in the studio, talking about Ancient Rome with you.Dr G 1:26Yeah we've been exploring Ancient Rome from the foundation of the city. And we are well into what is the early republic at this point, it's a roundabout 425Dr Rad 1:38It isDr G 1:38BCEDr Rad 1:39I feel like we've really raced ahead suddenly, like for a while, it was just like moving through slow setting cement. So I didn't feel like we could get out of the middle of the fifth century BCE. And here we are, we are getting so close to a new century.Dr G 1:55Things are speeding up. And I think we have to thank our missing source material,Dr Rad 2:00I was gonna say, probably not a good thing. It's the fact that everything seems to be a little bit blancker.Dr G 2:07There are a lot of fragments. But before we get into 425, and maybe what we could possibly know about it, let's do a little bit of a recap of where we're up to. And just think a little bit about 426. And where the land lay at that point.Dr Rad 2:23Well, it's a difficult one, because to give a recap of 426, Dr G, is but to give a recap of a 437 as well.Dr G 2:33It's a tough time in our Roman source material. And it's centered around this guy, all this Cornelius Cossus, who is most famous in all of Roman history for being one of the three Roman generals to achieve taking the spoila optima.Dr Rad 2:50I feel like that should have been a sign to them that they were maybe making it too high.Dr G 2:57All of Rome, only three men, well, maybe. But it's really challenging because it has to be somebody who is in the military in a significant position, taking down the enemy leader directly. So it's a commander taking out a commander, basically in single combat in amongst a whole other battle going on around them.Dr Rad 3:20And it makes it even more difficult because technically, he may not be that person, because he doesn't seem to matter, potentially, when he did this.Dr G 3:30Awkward awkward, like 426 is one of the years. He also could have done it in 428 when he was actual consul that would make narrative sense to me. Yeah. And that's the that's the date I would hone in on. But it could also have been as early as you say 437 – 438 as well. Yeah, so everything's a little bit hazy.Dr Rad 3:49But the bigger context for who all is Cossus. Sorry. Aulus Cornelius Cossus was fighting is Veii.Dr G 3:57Yes. Yeah. He's fighting the Etruscans. Yeah. And Rome at this point in time, the big picture is that Rome is sort of finding its way with its neighbors, like, how does it sit within the broader Italian landscape? Where do they do their strength lies? Who are their allies? Who are they against, and they're now butting up really closely against the Etruscans. And the city of Veii is the southern most Etruscan city we know of, and it is a mere 15 or 20 kilometers from Rome itself. And, you know, a good day's march – hard and fast – and you'll get there and you'll be ready to fight them by the next breakfast.Dr Rad 4:34Absolutely. And it also that conflict was they seem to be pivoting on the question of Fidenae, I think in whatever you're talking about. But in this past decade, it seems to be a real sore spot that this colony of Fidenae really wants to be sided with the Etruscans and every time they decide they're going to make the switch to room conflict ensues.Dr G 5:00Yeah, it's a tragic time Rome has convinced that Fidenae is theirsDr Rad 5:04YupDr G 5:04And Fidenae is apparently a Roman colony from way back, depending on how you look at it. And Fidenae has defected they've thrown their lot in with the Etruscans. And Rome is less than pleased.Dr Rad 5:17Absolutely, they're not gonna take that. So as a result, we had a lot of military action in 426 BCE, rightly or wrongly, this is how it's come across to us with the Romans after having a difficult start pulling through Yeah,Dr G 5:35Whoo.Dr Rad 5:39Yeah, so that's kind of weird. Sarcasm may not be detected. So that's kind of where I think we ended up at the end 426, which is actually refreshing. Because the early 420s BC were a little dull. I'm not gonna lie.Dr G 6:01They were but as as 426 concludes, it feels like we've maybe reached the conclusion of a certain level of the combat because if the king of Veii, Lars Tolumnius has not died up until now. We think he must be dead by this point in time. Yeah. So that brings us toDr Rad 6:23The extended deadline. Sorry, that brings us toDr G 6:29425 BCE.Welcome one and all. Roll up, roll up for 425 BCE.Dr Rad 7:18Oh, yeah. Yeah.Dr G 7:22Dionysius of Halicarnassus is missing.Dr Rad 7:25Party on, Livy is not!Dr G 7:28The Fasti Capitolini are missing.Dr Rad 7:31Oh, really?Dr G 7:32They are. They've been missing for a little while now. And that?Dr Rad 7:34Well, you kept that quiet.Dr G 7:37I mean, there's there was no point to mention them. So this year, I have four military tribunes with consular power.Dr Rad 7:44Now, I would love for you to tell me their names, Dr G. But before you do that, I would like to pause because I was talking with a learned gentleman the other day, who asked me to explain where the title of tribune actually comes from.Dr G 8:03And it's a good question because it does have “tri-” in it. So a group of three, but we can already see with the plebeian tribunes that, maybe it depends.Dr Rad 8:13Sure. And I think it also has this link to the fact that Rome, that having at least according to their own history, Rome was organized into tribes. And so “tribune” was often a title given to someone who was the leader of some sort of group that had something to do with the tribal organization. And if we think about what you were saying in terms of the number and that idea of where does the word tribune comes from? Romulus originally divided the population of Rome up into three tribes, correct?Dr G 8:42Yes, correct. Yes.Dr Rad 8:44And so this is a title that a lot of people get in some form or another. So for example, obviously, we've got the tribune of the plebs. Now, we don't think that the tribune of the plebs have a particularly strong connection to the tribal structure to the ancient tribe. Yeah, no, we don't think so. But it makes sense, obviously, that they are presiding over a body where people are organized, it is a tribal assembly, essentially, that they presiding over as well. So there's a connection there. It's also just a say a word that the Romans start to use for these people who are leading some sort of tribal group. And I'd say it's also something that therefore, the more they get into the habit of using that for these people, the more that the practice of using that term, obviously, continues on. And then obviously, when we've got military tribunes and military tribunes refer to leaders, obviously, of a particular army group. Again, probably very early on in Rome's history, there was probably some sort of tribal organization to the group that they were commanding, but eventually it doesn't have anything to do with that, but the title stays.Dr G 9:49Yes, yeah, the meaning changes, but the would remain where it lives on.Dr Rad 9:53And so obviously military tribunes with consular power is, you know, apparently the Romans putting this idea of well plebeians they don't have the auspicium to be, you know, they can't be a consul like the patricians can, we have the auspicium we you know monopolizing all the auspicium that's out there, so you can't hold that position and therefore they give it they've used this position this military tribunes and given it the you know the authority or the power of the consul without giving it the actual consulship. So yeah, it's a very fine line isn't so complicated try and explain.And yet for all of the explanations that are put forward for the idea that these military tribunes with consular power should open up the position to people who aren't necessarily patrician, what we tend to find is that they're largely patrician.Yes. And see, I was really it's really interesting article the other day, which puts forward this argument that at this point in Rome's history, this idea of consuls, praetors, military tribunes with consular power, it's just nearly allies, because this person was saying that it seems as though Rome, obviously, is, as we've been talking about as much of the stuff that we've been talking about, I suppose, but taking it a little bit further, that Rome has this narrative that they got rid of the kings, and then they seamlessly transitioned into this Republican system, which is suspiciously similar to the late Republic.Dr G 11:33YeahDr Rad 11:33Yeah. And that, in this in this particular context, in early Rome, this person has suggested that actually, there are no senior magistrates, so consuls, praetors, military tribunes with consular power, it doesn't exist at this point in time. It's something that exists a bit later, probably about if we're at 425 right now, probably, what about 80 years, that's when we start to see the appearance of these sorts of things. And that really, we've just got patricians, which is much what we've seen monopolizing power. So because they are wealthy, they have resources, they have clients, they've been able to monopolize power in the countryside. And if we look at the names that the tribes have been given out in the countryside, like outside of the pomerium, outside of the city of Rome itself, they kind of reflect the power that these people hold. So like they might be named after a particular gentes. So like, Aemelia, or whatever. And then if we look at the tribes within the city, that's not the case. It's the tribal names are more reflective of like, where you live, you know, it's like the Palatina or something like,Dr G 12:40Yeah, look, I think it's pretty fair to take the position that the way that state structures form is slow. And it's a process. And things are not necessarily set in structures that make sense. And structures have to alter and change.Dr Rad 13:01YupDr G 13:02And adapt to situations. And part of the challenge for historians is that there is very few ways for us to get closer to what actually may have happened in the past than we already are.Dr Rad 13:18Yeah, for sure.Dr G 13:19And so these written sources that we're relying on, whether it's the fasti, whether it's Dionysius or Livy, these people are doing the best they can, I like to give them the benefit of the doubt – doing the best they can with the information that they have at hand. But the way that information is kept and conveyed over time is problematic. Yeah. And it's not rigorous in the same way like we live in this internet age where we have an overabundance, if you like of information, yeah, that doesn't mean that it's easy to access the information that is actually useful, and, and good and true. Yeah. And we know that truth is a multiplicity, depending on your subjectivity. So if we take all of those ideas that we understand into account, the complexity of what's at play here is far beyond what we're going to be able to discern from the source material. Yeah. And there's lots of things that we don't know. So the best that we can say in this sort of case is that, yes, you know, something like the name “tribune” has a couple of different sort of etymological connections that it could draw upon to make it make sense. But at the same time, it's clearly in use, and when language is in use, meanings change and adapt to the necessity of the moment.Dr Rad 14:33Absolutely.Dr G 14:34Not holding true to the etymology of how it originally came about.Dr Rad 14:39Yeah. And I think this is the thing I a…

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