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    Education

    The Gray Area with Sean Illing

    The Gray Area with Sean Illing takes a philosophy-minded look at culture, technology, politics, and the world of ideas. Each week, we invite a guest to explore a question or topic that matters. From the the state of democracy, to the struggle with depression and anxiety, to the nature of identity in the digital age, each episode looks for nuance and honesty in the most important conversations of our time. New episodes drop every Monday. From the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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    Copyright: © 2019 Vox Media, Inc. All Rights Reserved

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    Latest Episodes:
    Even Better: Activism when you don't know where to start Aug 04, 2022
    Show notes

    Every Thursday in August, you'll hear Even Better on Vox Conversations, a special series focused on helping people live better lives individually and collectively.

    In this first episode, host Julia Furlan talks with activist, writer, and organizer Brea Baker. Brea's career has included student activism at Yale University, national organizing for the Women's March, and continues today through action-oriented work on behalf of progressive causes. Brea talks about how her work is informed by radical love, how she confronts obstacles in the movement on both personal and organizational scales, and how we can push back against despair and dread, and come into our power — no matter where we're at.

    Host: Julia Furlan (@juliastmi)

    Guests: Brea Baker (@Brea_Baker), activist; writer; Chief Equity Officer, Inspire Justice

    References:

    • "bell hooks Taught Us To Both Practice and Preach Radical Love" by Brea Baker (Elle; Dec. 20, 2021)
    • The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindnessby Michelle Alexander (New Press; 2010)
    • "Yale Announces a New Center for Race Studies. A Yale Senior Asks, Now What?" by Brea Baker (Elle; Feb. 23, 2016)
    • "Why I Became an Abolitionist" by Brea Baker (Harper's Bazaar; Dec. 10, 2020)
    • We Do This 'Til We Free Us: Abolitionist Organizing and Transforming Justice by Mariame Kaba (Haymarket; 2021)


    Even Better is here to offer deeply sourced, actionable advice for helping you live a better life. Follow Even Better at vox.com/even-better.

    Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

    Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

    Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

    This episode was made by:

    • Producer: Erikk Geannikis
    • Editor: Amy Drozdowska
    • Engineer: Patrick Boyd
    • Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

    The Supreme Court's power grab Aug 01, 2022
    Show notes

    Sean Illing talks with Harvard Law professor Nikolas Bowie about the U.S. Supreme Court's recently-concluded term, which produced landmark opinions restricting the power of the EPA, expanding gun rights, and overturning Roe v. Wade. They discuss how the conservative court's arguments are structured and why they are in fact quite radical, what "legal liberalism" is and whether it has just been decisively repudiated, and whether there are any reforms that could stop the conservative majority from reshaping American jurisprudence.

    Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

    Guest: Nikolas Bowie (@nikobowie), Louis D. Brandeis Professor of Law, Harvard Law School

    References:

    • Presidential Commission on the Supreme Court, Public Meeting, Panel 1 (C-SPAN; June 30)
    • "How the Supreme Court dominates our democracy" by Niko Bowie (Washington Post; July 16, 2021)
    • A Twitter thread on the repudiation of legal liberalism, by @nikobowie
    • Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health (SCOTUS; June 24)
    • 42 U.S. Code §1983 - Civil action for deprivation of rights
    • 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (1868)
    • New York State Rifle & Pistol Association Inc. v. Bruen (SCOTUS; June 23)
    • Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey (SCOTUS; June 29, 1992)
    • Private Government: How Employers Rule Our Lives (and Why We Don't Talk about It)by Elizabeth Anderson (Princeton; 2017)
    • "A new Supreme Court case is the biggest threat to US democracy since January 6" by Ian Millhiser (Vox; June 30)


    Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

    Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

    Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

    This episode was made by:

    • Producer: Erikk Geannikis
    • Editor: Amy Drozdowska
    • Engineer: Patrick Boyd
    • Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

    How middlemen took over the economy Jul 28, 2022
    Show notes

    Vox's Emily Stewart talks with Kathryn Judge, professor at Columbia Law School and author of the new book Direct: The Rise of Middleman Economy and the Power of Going to the Source. They discuss how middlemen — which include real estate agents, stock brokers, but also Amazon and Walmart — came to assume such an outsized role in our economy, the pros and cons of middlemen in different market contexts, why Prof. Judge sees a fundamental difference between Etsy and Amazon, and how we consumers can change how we decide what to buy in order to help push the economy in a radically different direction.

    Host: Emily Stewart (@EmilyStewartM), senior correspondent, Vox

    Guests: Kathryn Judge (@ProfKateJudge), Harvey J. Goldschmid Professor of Law, Columbia University; author

    References:

    • Direct: The Rise of the Middleman Economy and the Power of Going to the Sourceby Kathryn Judge (Harper Business; 2022)
    • "So Much for Cutting Out the Middleman" by Kathryn Judge (The Atlantic; June 9)
    • "What Is Web3?" by Thomas Stackpole (Harvard Business Review; May 10)
    • "The awful American consumer" by Emily Stewart (Vox; Apr. 7)


    Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

    Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

    Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

    This episode was made by:

    • Producer: Erikk Geannikis
    • Editor: Amy Drozdowska
    • Engineer: Patrick Boyd
    • Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

    The necessity — and danger — of free speech Jul 25, 2022
    Show notes

    Sean Illing talks with Washington Post media columnist Margaret Sullivan about his new book The Paradox of Democracy, which he co-authored with media studies professor Zac Gershberg. Sean and Margaret discuss the relationship between free expression and democratic society, talk about whether or not the January 6th hearings are doing anything at all politically, and discuss some potential ways to bolster democratic values in the media ecology of the present.

    Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

    Guest: Margaret Sullivan (@Sulliview), media columnist, Washington Post

    References:

    • The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasion by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (Chicago; 2022)
    • Ghosting the News: Local Journalism and the Crisis of American Democracy by Margaret Sullivan (Columbia Global Reports; 2020)
    • "Four reasons the Jan. 6 hearings have conquered the news cycle" by Margaret Sullivan (Washington Post; July 22)
    • Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan (1964)
    • Amusing Ourselves to Deathby Neil Postman (1985)
    • Newsroom Confidential: Lessons (and Worries) from an Ink-Stained Lifeby Margaret Sullivan (St. Martin's; Oct. 2022)


    Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

    Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

    Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

    This episode was made by:

    • Producer: Erikk Geannikis
    • Editor: Amy Drozdowska
    • Engineer: Patrick Boyd
    • Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

    Hacking coral sex to save the reefs Jul 21, 2022
    Show notes

    Vox's Benji Jones talks with marine biologist Hanna Koch about her team's efforts to repopulate the planet's coral reefs through cutting-edge scientific intervention. They discuss what makes coral so unique as organisms, how scientists understand their reproductive behavior, and how they are working to respawn corals and repopulate reefs. Hanna explains why this work is so imperative — not just for the diverse array of marine life that coral reefs are home to, but for the sustainability of human communities, as well.

    Host: Benji Jones (@BenjiSJones), Environmental reporter, Vox

    Guest: Hanna Koch (@DrHannaRKoch1), Marine biologist; postdoctoral research fellow, Coral Reef Restoration Program, Mote Marine Laboratory

    References:

    • "How to resurrect a coral reef" by Benji Jones (Vox; Apr. 22)
    • "Restored Corals Spawn Hope for Reefs Worldwide" by Hanna R. Koch, Erinn Muller, & Michael P. Crosby (The Scientist; Feb. 1, 2021)
    • "Herbivorous Crabs Reverse the Seaweed Dilemma on Coral Reefs" by A. Jason Spadaro & Mark Butler (Current Biology 31 (4); Feb. 22, 2021)


    Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

    Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

    Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

    This episode was made by:

    • Producer: Erikk Geannikis
    • Editor: Amy Drozdowska
    • Engineer: Patrick Boyd
    • Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

    The price of keeping secrets Jul 18, 2022
    Show notes

    Sean Illing talks with professor Michael Slepian, author of The Secret Life of Secrets. This new book explores secret-keeping behavior and its consequences, as well as how secrecy relates to trust. Sean and Michael talk about what things we keep secret, why we're so worried about keeping them secret, and the toll that secret-keeping can have on us. They also talk about how the issue of secrecy relates to authenticity, and our fears of being judged by others.

    Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

    Guest: Michael Slepian (@michaelslepian), author; professor, Columbia Business School

    References:

    • The Secret Life of Secrets: How Our Inner Worlds Shape Well-Being, Relationships, and Who We Are by Michael Slepian (Crown; 2022)
    • "Why the Secrets You Keep Are Hurting You" by Michael Slepian (Scientific American; Feb. 5, 2019)
    • "Spill the Beans" by Olga Khazan (The Atlantic; July 8, 2015)
    • "Keeping Secrets Isn't So Bad for You After All — With One Exception" by Olivia Campbell (New York; May 3, 2017)


    Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

    Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

    Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

    This episode was made by:

    • Producer: Erikk Geannikis
    • Editor: Amy Drozdowska
    • Engineer: Patrick Boyd
    • Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

    Does China control Hollywood? Jul 14, 2022
    Show notes

    Vox's Alissa Wilkinson talks with Wall Street Journal reporter Erich Schwartzel about Red Carpet, his new book detailing the myriad ways that Hollywood movies are affected by China. They discuss how Chinese markets are essential for the budgetary math of big blockbusters, the role of the Chinese Communist Party's censors play in shaping the content of American films, and what this complicated global relationship might for Hollywood's future — and the future of movies in general.

    Host: Alissa Wilkinson (@alissamarie), film critic and senior culture reporter, Vox

    Guests: Erich Schwartzel (@erichschwartzel), reporter, The Wall Street Journal; author

    References:

    • Red Carpet: Hollywood, China, and the Global Battle for Cultural Supremacy by Erich Schwartzel (Penguin; 2022)


    Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

    Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

    Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

    This episode was made by:

    • Producer: Erikk Geannikis
    • Editor: Amy Drozdowska
    • Engineer: Patrick Boyd
    • Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

    Steve Bannon is still at war Jul 11, 2022
    Show notes

    Sean Illing talks with Jennifer Senior, the Pulitzer-winning staff writer at the Atlantic, about her recent piece on Steve Bannon called "American Rasputin." Through incredible firsthand access and detailed reporting, Senior shows how Bannon is still an effective media manipulator through his popular "War Room" podcast. Sean and Jennifer discuss what Bannon's true political beliefs might be, the role he played in plotting the January 6th attack on the Capitol, and the role he might already be playing in setting up the next insurrection.

    Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

    Guest: Jennifer Senior (@JenSeniorNY), staff writer, The Atlantic

    References:

    • "American Rasputin" by Jennifer Senior (June 6; The Atlantic)
    • UPDATE: "Bannon, Facing Jail and Fines, Agrees to Testify to Jan. 6 Panel" by Luke Broadwater and Maggie Haberman (July 10; New York Times)
    • "Steve Bannon's 'We Build the Wall' Codefendants Plead Guilty" by Bob Van Voris (Apr. 21; Bloomberg)
    • "Steve Bannon and U.S. ultra-conservatives take aim at Pope Francis" by Richard Engel and Kennett Werner (Apr. 12, 2019; NBC News)
    • "'Flood the zone with shit': How misinformation overwhelmed our democracy" by Sean Illing (updated Feb. 6, 2020; Vox)
    • The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasion by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (2022; U. Chicago)
    • American Dharma, dir. by Errol Morris (2019)
    • The Fourth Turning: What the Cycles of History Tell Us About America's Next Rendezvous with Destinyby William Strauss and Neil Howe (Crown; 1997)
    • "The work" of George Ivanovich Gurdjieff (d. 1949)
    • "What I Learned Binge-Watching Steve Bannon's Documentaries" by Adam Wren (Politico; Dec. 2016)
    • "McLuhan would blow hot and cool about today's internet" by Nick Carr (Nov. 1, 2007; The Guardian)


    Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

    Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

    Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

    This episode was made by:

    • Producer: Erikk Geannikis
    • Editor: Amy Drozdowska
    • Engineer: Patrick Boyd
    • Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

    The Fortress of Solitude saw it all coming Jun 30, 2022
    Show notes

    Vox's Constance Grady talks with writer Jonathan Lethem about his 2003 work The Fortress of Solitude in this recording from a live Vox Book Club event. They discuss the prescient and still-relevant themes of the novel — like the issues of appropriation in art, gentrification, and superheroes, how Lethem approaches "realism" in his writing, and the role of music and comics in both his own life and the lives of his characters.

    Vox Conversations will be on summer break the week of July 4th, and will return on Monday, July 11th.

    Host: Constance Grady (@constancegrady), staff writer, Vox

    Guests: Jonathan Lethem, author

    References:

    • The Fortress of Solitude by Jonathan Lethem (Vintage; 2003)
    • "The Fortress of Solitude is a fraught and uneasy love letter to a vanished Brooklyn" by Constance Grady (Vox; May 20)
    • "The Author Looks Inward: A Conversation with Jonathan Lethem" by Brian Gresko (LARB; Sept. 8, 2013)
    • Another Country by James Baldwin (1962)
    • Buddenbrooks by Thomas Mann (1901)
    • Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison (1977)


    Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

    Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

    Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

    This episode was made by:

    • Producer: Erikk Geannikis
    • Editor: Amy Drozdowska
    • Engineer: Patrick Boyd
    • Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

    The Philosophers: Stoic revival Jun 27, 2022
    Show notes

    Sean Illing talks with author Ryan Holiday about Stoicism — a philosophy with roots in ancient Greece and which flourished in early imperial Rome — and how it can help us live fulfilling lives today. In addition to explaining what Stoicism is and how we can practice it, Holiday addresses the critical idea that Stoicism is a philosophy for elites, unpacks some of the parallels between Stoicism and Buddhism, and explains how being in touch with our mortality can relieve some of our modern anxieties.

    This is the fourth episode of The Philosophers, a monthly series from Vox Conversations. Each episode will focus on a philosophical figure or school of thought from the past, and discuss how their ideas can help us make sense of our modern world and lives today. Check out the other episodes in this series, on Albert Camus, Hannah Arendt, and pragmatism with Cornel West.

    Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews writer, Vox

    Guest: Ryan Holiday (@RyanHoliday), author; creator of Daily Stoic

    References to works by Stoics:

    • Zeno of Citium (c. 334 – c. 262 BC) (about whom much is known from Diogenes Laërtius, c. 3rd c. AD, in Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers, VII)
    • Epictetus (c. 50 – c. 125 AD): The Encheiridion (or Handbook) of Epictetus; The Discourses of Epictetus
    • Seneca (c. 4 BC – 65 AD): Dialogues and letters
    • Marcus Aurelius (121 – 180 AD): Meditations (Penguin Classics ; MIT Internet Classics Archive)


    Other references:

    • The Daily Stoic podcast with Ryan Holiday
    • Lives of the Stoics: The Art of Living from Zeno to Marcus Aureliusby Ryan Holiday and Stephen Hanselman (Portfolio; 2020)
    • Courage Is Calling by Ryan Holiday (Portfolio; 2021)
    • Courage Under Fire: Testing Epictetus's Doctrines in a Laboratory of Human Behavior by James B. Stockdale (Hoover Institution Press; 1993)
    • "Self-pity" by D.H. Lawrence
    • The Stoic Life: Emotions, Duties, and Fate by Tad Brennan (Oxford; 2005)
    • How to Be a Stoicby Massimo Pigliucci (Basic; 2017)
    • Stoic Wisdom: Ancient Lessons for Modern Resilienceby Nancy Sherman (Oxford; 2021)


    Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

    Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

    Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

    This episode was made by:

    • Producer: Erikk Geannikis
    • Editor: Amy Drozdowska
    • Engineer: Patrick Boyd
    • Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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