The Gray Area with Sean Illing

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What do we owe animals? Jan 05, 2023

Show notes

Guest host Sigal Samuel talks with philosopher and author Martha Nussbaum about her new book, Justice for Animals. Martha discusses several different ethical, legal, and metaphysical theories for how we humans should treat other non-human animals, and offers her own distinct new approach.

Host: Sigal Samuel (@SigalSamuel), Senior Reporter, Vox

Guest: Martha Nussbaum, author; Ernst Freund Distinguished Service Professor of Philosophy, U. Chicago

References:

Justice for Animals: Our Collective Responsibility by Martha Nussbaum (Simon & Schuster; 2022)
Drawing the Line: Science and the Case for Animal Rightsby Steven M. Wise (Basic; 2003)
Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved by Frans de Waal (Princeton; 2006)
Animal Liberation: A New Ethics for Our Treatment of Animals by Peter Singer (1975)
Fellow Creatures: Our Obligations to Other Animalsby Christine Korsgaard (Oxford; 2018)
Political Liberalismby John Rawls (1993)
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948)
"Ag-Gag" Laws in the United States (Animal Legal Defense Fund)
Zoopolis: A Political Theory of Animal Rights by Sue Donaldson and Will Kymlicka (Oxford; 2011)

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This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Best of: America's philosophy, with Cornel West Dec 22, 2022

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with Cornel West about the American philosophical tradition known as pragmatism. They talk about what makes pragmatism so distinctly American, how pragmatists understand the connection between knowledge and action, and how the pragmatist mindset can invigorate our understanding of democratic life and communal action today. Cornel West also talks about the ways in which pragmatism has influenced his work and life, alongside the blues, Chekhov, and his Christian faith.

This was an episode of The Philosophers, a series from Vox Conversations, originally released in May.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews writer, Vox

Guest: Cornel West (@CornelWest), author; Dietrich Bonhoeffer professor of philosophy & Christian practice, Union Theological Seminary

References to works by American pragmatists:

Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803–1882): "Self-Reliance" (1841)
William James (1842–1910): Pragmatism: A New Name for Some Old Ways of Thinking(1907); The Varieties of Religious Experience (1902); "Is Life Worth Living?" (1895)
Charles Sanders Peirce (1839–1914): "The Fixation of Belief" (1877)
John Dewey (1859–1952): The Quest for Certainty (1929); "Emerson—The Philosopher of Democracy" (1903); The Public and Its Problems (1927)
Richard Rorty (1931–2007): "Pragmatism, Relativism, and Irrationalism" (1979); "Solidarity or Objectivity?" (1989)

Other references:

Cornel West Teaches Philosophy (MasterClass)
The American Evasion of Philosophy: A Genealogy of Pragmatismby Cornel West (Univ. of Wisconsin Press; 1989)
The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald (1925)
Plato, Republic (refs. in particular to Book 1 and Book 8)
The Phantom Public by Walter Lippmann (1925)
Leopardi: Selected Poems of Giacomo Leopardi (1798–1837), tr. by Eamon Grennan (Princeton; 1997)
"The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus (1942; tr. 1955)
Democracy & Traditionby Jeffrey Stout (Princeton; 2003)

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This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Best of: The necessity — and danger — of free speech Dec 19, 2022

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with Washington Post media columnist Margaret Sullivan about his new book The Paradox of Democracy, which he co-authored with media studies professor Zac Gershberg. Sean and Margaret discuss the relationship between free expression and democratic society, talk about whether or not the January 6th hearings are doing anything at all politically, and discuss some potential ways to bolster democratic values in the media ecology of the present.

This was originally released as an episode of Vox Conversations in July.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

Guest: Margaret Sullivan (@Sulliview), media columnist, Washington Post

References:

The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasion by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (Chicago; 2022)
Ghosting the News: Local Journalism and the Crisis of American Democracy by Margaret Sullivan (Columbia Global Reports; 2020)
"Four reasons the Jan. 6 hearings have conquered the news cycle" by Margaret Sullivan (Washington Post; July 22)
Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan (1964)
Amusing Ourselves to Deathby Neil Postman (1985)
Newsroom Confidential: Lessons (and Worries) from an Ink-Stained Lifeby Margaret Sullivan (St. Martin's; Oct. 2022)

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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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The church of celebrity Dec 15, 2022

Show notes

Guest host Alissa Wilkinson talks with Katelyn Beaty, author of the new book Celebrities for Jesus, about how the dynamics of fame, influence, and new media are changing our experience of religious faith. They discuss how celebrities like Billy Graham set the tone for a lionization of celebrity in the Evangelical Church, why faith leaders cultivate distance from their congregations and build influencer-style social media presences, and share their thoughts on the future of the Church in our perhaps increasingly celebrity-obsessed culture.

Host: Alissa Wilkinson (@alissamarie), senior culture writer, Vox

Guest: Katelyn Beaty (@KatelynBeaty), author

References:

Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church by Katelyn Beaty (Brazos; 2022)
"Inside Hillsong, the Church of Choice for Justin Bieber and Kevin Durant" by Taffy Brodesser-Akner (GQ; Dec. 17, 2015)
"After Columbine, martyrdom became a powerful fantasy for Christian teenagers" by Alissa Wilkinson (Vox; Apr. 17, 2019)

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This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Men and boys are struggling. Should we care? Dec 12, 2022

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with author, researcher, and Brookings Institution senior fellow Richard V. Reeves about his new book Of Boys and Men, which documents the ways that males all over the industrialized world are struggling — and what to do about it. Sean and Richard talk about how this crisis among men has its roots in the progress societies have made toward gender equality, about what has been exposed as the playing field has become more level, and about how to challenge our traditional understandings of masculinity and fatherhood in order to address the crisis — which, Reeves says, will be to everybody's benefit.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Richard V. Reeves (@RichardvReeves), author; senior fellow, Brookings Institution; director, Future of the Middle Class Initiative

References:

Of Boys And Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do about It by Richard V. Reeves (Brookings; 2022)
"The State of American Friendship: Change, Challenges, and Loss" by Daniel A. Cox (American Survey Center; June 8, 2021)
Unbound: How Inequality Constricts Our Economy and What We Can Do about Itby Heather Boushey (Harvard; 2019)
"Gender Achievement Gaps in U.S. School Districts" by Sean F. Reardon et al. (American Educational Research Journal vol. 56 (6); Apr. 25, 2019)
"The GOP's masculinity panic: David French on the cult of toughness on the Trumpist right" by Sean Illing (Jan. 5; episode here or here)
"Infrastructure Bill Must Create Pathways for Women To Enter Construction Trades" by Marina Zhavoronkova and Rose Khattar (Center for American Progress; Sept. 20)
12 Rules for Lifeby Jordan B. Peterson (Random House Canada; 2018)
"Few Good Men" by Kathryn Edin (American Prospect; Dec. 19, 2001)
"Redshirt the Boys: Why boys should start school a year later than girls" by Richard V. Reeves (The Atlantic; Sept. 14)
"What might interrupt men's suicide? Results from an online survey of men" by Fiona L. Shand et al. (BMJ vol. 5 (10); Oct. 15, 2015)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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The power of attention in a world of distraction Dec 08, 2022

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with Michael Sacasas, an author and teacher exploring the relationship between technology and society in his newsletter, The Convivial Society. This conversation is all about attention: what it exactly is, what its purpose is, and how it is under threat by the technology of modern society and its ubiquitous distractions. Michael calls upon venerated philosophers (like Simone Weil and Iris Murdoch) as well as contemporary writers (like Nicholas Carr and Jenny Odell) to make the case that figuring out how to command our attention is a matter of great moral significance, and is a crucial component of living a good life.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: L. Michael Sacasas (@LMSacasas), author of the newsletter The Convivial Society on Substack; associate director, Christian Study Center of Gainesville

References:

The Frailest Thing: Ten Years of Thinking About the Meaning of Technologyby L.M. Sacasas (Gumroad; 2019)
"Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut (1961)
"Is Google Making Us Stupid?" by Nicholas Carr (The Atlantic; July/August 2008)
Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan (1964)
Blaise Pascal on Diversion, from the Pensées (1670)
"Reflections on the Right Use of School Studies with a View to the Love of God" by Simone Weil (1942)
"The idea of perfection" by Iris Murdoch (1964)
"Against Dryness" by Iris Murdoch (1961)
Simone Weil, letter to Joë Bousquet, Apr. 13, 1942: "Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity."
"On Two Ways of Relating to the World" by L.M. Sacasas (The Convivial Society, Nov. 22)
How to Do Nothing by Jenny Odell (Melville House; 2019)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

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This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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A veteran reporter on how to fix the news Dec 05, 2022

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with James Fallows, veteran reporter and editor at The Atlantic, about the state of political journalism in America. Fallows has been covering the relationship between media and democracy since the mid-nineties, when his book Breaking the News presciently documented the roots of a growing mistrust in news media. Sean and James talk about the dangers facing the political press today, why national political news is not useful to most Americans, and what can be done to regain the people's trust in journalism.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: James Fallows (@JamesFallows), author of the newsletter, Breaking the News: Dispatches from a Veteran Reporter on Substack

References:

Breaking the News: How the Media Undermine American Democracyby James Fallows (Vintage; 1996)
Ashley Parker's tweet (Nov. 22)
"Exclusive: Naomi Biden On Her White House Wedding" by Chloe Malle (Vogue; Nov. 22)
Our Towns: A 100,000-Mile Journey Into the Heart of America by James Fallows and Deborah Fallows (Vintage; 2018)
Our Towns(HBO; 2021)
Local Independent Online News (LION) Publishers
"Leslie Moonves on Donald Trump: 'It May Not Be Good for America, but It's Damn Good for CBS'" by Paul Bond (Hollywood Reporter; Feb. 29, 2016)
Public Opinion by Walter Lippmann (1922)
"Correcting the Record; Times Reporter Who Resigned Leaves Long Trail of Deception" by Dan Barry et al. (New York Times; May 11, 2003)
"Weapons of Mass Destruction? Or Mass Distraction?" by Daniel Okrent (New York Times; May 30, 2004)
"3 Truths About Trump" by James Fallows (The Atlantic; July 13, 2015)
The Paradox of Democracy by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (U. Chicago; 2022)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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The end of social media Dec 01, 2022

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with technology writer and philosopher Ian Bogost about the state of social media — especially in the wake of Elon Musk's recent acquisition of Twitter. They discuss the recent but surprising history of the platforms that have come to dominate the lives of so many, and note a crucial shift that made social media what is today. Sean and Ian also talk about how Silicon Valley views "scale," whether Twitter should be treated as a public utility, and how — as a society — we might be able to quit.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Ian Bogost (@ibogost), contributing writer, The Atlantic; professor and director of film & media studies, Washington University of St. Louis

References:

"The Age of Social Media Is Ending" by Ian Bogost (The Atlantic; Nov. 10)
"The Madness of Twitter" by Ian Bogost (The Atlantic; Nov. 22)
"People Aren't Meant to Talk This Much" by Ian Bogost (The Atlantic; Oct. 22, 2021)
"Facebook Is A Doomsday Machine" by Adrienne LaFrance (The Atlantic; Dec. 15, 2020)
Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan (1964)
The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasionby Zac Gershberg & Sean Illing (U. Chicago; 2022)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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If society is making us sick, how can we heal? Nov 28, 2022

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with Dr. Gabor Maté, a physician, speaker, and bestselling author who has written on subjects like addiction, stress, and attention deficit disorder. In Maté's new book, The Myth of Normal, he argues that the Western paradigm of health is fundamentally flawed in its attempt to separate inner, emotional well-being from bodily health. Sean and Dr. Maté discuss how our society and culture can contribute to illness. They also talk about the adverse effects of trauma, the therapeutic potential of psychedelics, and parenting.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Dr. Gabor Maté (@DrGaborMate), author; physician

References:

The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture by Gabor Maté, MD, with Daniel Maté (Avery; 2022)
"Mothers Are the 'Shock Absorbers' of Our Society" by Jessica Grose (New York Times; Oct. 14, 2020)
"'It's Life or Death': The Mental Health Crisis Among U.S. Teens" by Matt Richtel (New York Times; Apr. 23)
Scattered Minds: The Origin and Healing of Attention Deficit Disorderby Gabor Maté, MD (Jan. 2023; Avery. Previously published as Scattered, 2000)
"The brutal mirror: What the psychedelic drug ayahuasca showed me about my life" by Sean Illing (Vox; Feb. 19, 2018)
"How to discipline your child and toddler, without hitting - Jordan Peterson" (YouTube; Mar. 15, 2018)
Hold On to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté, MD (Ballantine; 2006)
"A Theory of Human Motivation" by Abraham H. Maslow (Psychological Review vol. 50; 1943)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

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Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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The free-market century is over Nov 21, 2022

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with economic historian Brad DeLong about his new book Slouching Towards Utopia. In it, DeLong claims that the "long twentieth century" was the most consequential period in human history, during which the institutions of rapid technological growth and globalization were created, setting humanity on a path towards improving life, defeating scarcity, and enabling real freedom. But... this ran into some problems. Sean and Brad talk about the power of markets, how the New Deal led to something approaching real social democracy, and why the Great Recession of 2008 and its aftermath signified the end of this momentous era.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: J. Bradford DeLong (@delong), author; professor of economics, U.C. Berkeley

References: