The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Latest Episodes:

The value of being a "hater" Feb 13, 2023

Show notes

Guest host Rebecca Jennings talks with Justin Charity, cultural critic and senior staff writer at The Ringer, about what it means to be dubbed a "hater" on the internet. Rebecca and Justin talk about the role of criticism and the evolving ways in which critics and fans clash online. They discuss how a bad review (or a review seen as bad) can spark a far-ranging backlash, how the meme-ified cry of "let people enjoy things" has been taken from its original context, and what — if anything — might change the dynamics between fans and critics.

Host: Rebecca Jennings (@rebexxxxa), senior correspondent, Vox

Guest: Justin Charity, senior staff writer, The Ringer; co-host of the Sound Only podcast

References:

"'Hater' doesn't have to be a dirty word" by Rebecca Jennings (Vox; Jan. 18)
"2022 Was the Year of the Metaverse — Until It Wasn't" by Justin Charity (The Ringer; Dec. 29, 2022)
"Why Did Everyone Claim to Enjoy Kendrick Lamar's 'To Pimp A Butterfly'?" by Justin Charity (Complex; Nov. 3, 2015)
"Jake Paul Exposed as $2.2M Serial Crypto Scammer" by Robert D. Knight & Levy Prata (Beincrypto; Mar. 8, 2022)
"Taylor Swift Super Fans Are Furious About a Good Review" by Gita Jackson (Vice; July 31, 2020)
"The YouTubers are not okay" by Rebecca Jennings (Vox; May 10, 2022)
"How 'let people enjoy things' became a fight against criticism" by Constance Grady (Vox; May 16, 2019)
The original "let people enjoy things" webcomic, by Adam Ellis (Feb. 3, 2016)
"Like This or Die" by Christian Lorenzen (Harpers; Apr. 2019)
@talialichtstein on TikTok
"Meet the most obsessive Bill Simmons fans online" by Luke Winkie (The Outline; Jan. 2, 2020)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Behind the blue wall Feb 09, 2023

Show notes

Sean Illing speaks with Rosa Brooks, a former reserve police officer and current law professor at Georgetown University. Brooks wrote Tangled Up in Blue: Policing the American City about her experience going through the police academy and becoming a cop on the streets of Washington, DC. They discuss what she saw during her time on the force, some of the differences between how cops see their jobs and how things are, and what could be done differently to fix American policing.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Rosa Brooks (@brooks_rosa), author; professor of law and policy, Georgetown University

References:

Tangled Up in Blue: Policing the American City by Rosa Brooks (Penguin; 2021)
“Any situation can turn lethal in an instant, and other lessons I learned at the police academy” by Rosa Brooks (Los Angeles Times; Feb. 21, 2021)
"New Perspectives in Policing: From Warriors to Guardians" by: Sue Rahr and Stephen K. Rice (PDF; NIJ and The Harvard Kennedy School)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Best of: Imagine a future with no police Feb 06, 2023

Show notes

Guest host Fabiola Cineas talks with author, lawyer, and organizer Derecka Purnell about her recent book Becoming Abolitionists. They discuss Derecka's journey to defending the idea of police abolition, and what that position really entails. They explore questions about the historical and social role of policing in society, how to imagine a future where we radically rethink our system of criminal justice, and how we can acknowledge and incorporate current data about crime — while still rethinking our inherited assumptions about police.

This was originally released in Jan. 2022 as an episode of Vox Conversations.

Host: Fabiola Cineas (@FabiolaCineas), reporter, Vox.com

Guest: Derecka Purnell (@dereckapurnell), author

References:

Becoming Abolitionists: Police, Protests, and the Pursuit of Freedom by Derecka Purnell (Astra House; 2021)
Police shootings database 2015-2023 (Washington Post)
The Black Jacobins: Toussaint L'Ouverture and the San Domingo Revolution by C.L.R. James (Vintage; 1989)
Black Reconstruction in America 1860–1880 by W.E.B. Du Bois (1935)
"One American city's model of policing reform means building 'social currency'" by Nathan Layne (June 12, 2020; Reuters)
"The Camden Police Department is Not a Model for Policing in the Post-George Floyd Era" by Brendan McQuade (June 12, 2020; The Appeal)
"Murder Rose by Almost 30% in 2020. It's Rising at a Slower Rate in 2021" by Jeff Asher (Sept. 22, 2021; New York Times)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Engineers: Patrick Boyd & Paul Robert Mounsey
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Is America broken? Feb 02, 2023

Show notes

Sean Illing speaks with Alana Newhouse, the editor-in-chief of Tabletmagazine. They discuss her recent essay on "brokenism," a term she coined in an effort to redefine political divisions in America. Newhouse argues that the most salient divide right now is between those who want to fix the institutions we have and those who want to burn it all down and start fresh.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Alana Newhouse (@alananewhouse) editor-in-chief, Tablet

References:

“Brokenism” by Alana Newhouse (Tablet, Nov. 21, 2022)
“Everything is Broken” by Alana Newhouse (Tablet, Jan. 14, 2021)
"See Workers as Workers, Not as a College Credential" by The New York Times Editorial Board (Jan. 28)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The creator of Fargo is done with good guys vs. bad guys Jan 30, 2023

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with Noah Hawley, the creator and showrunner of the anthology drama Fargo on FX, as well as a celebrated novelist whose newest book is Anthem (2022). They discuss themes stemming from Hawley's recent piece in the Atlantic about myths, stories, and tropes from the Old West (and Hollywood) that are still powerful and active in shaping American society. Hawley also talks about why we're drawn to shows like Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead, what to expect on the forthcoming fifth season of Fargo, and what his new novel says about the future.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Noah Hawley (@noahhawley), novelist; tv/film director

References:

"It's High Noon in America" by Noah Hawley (The Atlantic; Dec. 19, 2022)
Anthem by Noah Hawley (Grand Central; 2022)
Slaughterhouse-Five, or, The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death by Kurt Vonnegut (1969)
"'Duck Dynasty' vs. 'Modern Family': 50 Maps of the U.S. Cultural Divide" by Josh Katz (New York Times; Dec. 27, 2016)
"The sex-trafficking investigation of Matt Gaetz, explained" by Amber Phillips (Washington Post; Jan. 27, 2022)
The Trial by Franz Kafka (1925)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Revisiting the "father of capitalism" Jan 26, 2023

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with Glory Liu, the author of Adam Smith’s America: How a Scottish Philosopher became an Icon of American Capitalism. Smith is most well-known for being the “father of capitalism,” but as Liu points out in her book, his legacy has been misappropriated — especially in America. They discuss his original intentions and what we can take away from his work today.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Glory Liu (@miss_glory), author; lecturer, Harvard University

References:

Adam Smith’s America: How a Scottish Philosopher became an Icon of American Capitalismby Glory Liu (Princeton; 2022)
Adam Smith: An Enlightened Life by Nicholas Phillipson (Yale; 2012)
Free to Choose: A Personal Statement by Milton & Rose Friedman (Harcourt; 1980)
“Adam Smith’s ‘History of Astronomy’ and view of science” by Kwangsu Kim (Cambridge Journal of Economics v. 36; 2012)

Works by Adam Smith:

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Can effective altruism be redeemed? Jan 23, 2023

Show notes

Guest host Sigal Samuel talks with Holden Karnofsky about effective altruism, a movement flung into public scrutiny with the collapse of Sam Bankman-Fried and his crypto exchange, FTX. They discuss EA’s approach to charitable giving, the relationship between effective altruism and the moral philosophy of utilitarianism, and what reforms might be needed for the future of the movement.

Note: In August 2022, Bankman-Fried’s philanthropic family foundation, Building a Stronger Future, awarded Vox’s Future Perfect a grant for a 2023 reporting project. That project is now on pause.

Host: Sigal Samuel (@SigalSamuel), Senior Reporter, Vox

Guest: Holden Karnofsky, co-founder of GiveWell; CEO of Open Philanthropy

References:

"Effective altruism gave rise to Sam Bankman-Fried. Now it's facing a moral reckoning" by Sigal Samuel (Vox; Nov. 16, 2022)
"The Reluctant Prophet of Effective Altruism" by Gideon Lewis-Kraus (New Yorker; Aug. 8, 2022)
"Sam Bankman-Fried tries to explain himself" by Kelsey Piper (Vox; Nov. 16, 2022)
"EA is about maximization, and maximization is perilous" by Holden Karnofsky (Effective Altruism Forum; Sept. 2, 2022)
"Defending One-Dimensional Ethics" by Holden Karnofsky (Cold Takes blog; Feb. 15, 2022)
"Future-proof ethics" by Holden Karnofsky (Cold Takes blog; Feb. 2, 2022)
"Bayesian mindset" by Holden Karnofsky (Cold Takes blog; Dec. 21, 2021)
"EA Structural Reform Ideas" by Carla Zoe Cremer (Nov. 12, 2022)
"Democratising Risk: In Search of a Methodology to Study Existential Risk" by Carla Cremer and Luke Kemp (SSRN; Dec. 28, 2021)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The roots of homelessness Jan 19, 2023

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with writer and reporter Jerusalem Demsas about the causes of homelessness in America. They discuss our ideas of home ownership, and how our country’s cultural expectations and policies are working against us.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jerusalem Demsas (@JerusalemDemsas) staff writer, The Atlantic

References:

“The Homeownership Society Was a Mistake” by Jerusalem Demsas (The Atlantic; Dec. 20, 2022)
“The Obvious Answer to Homelessness and Why Everyone’s Ignoring It” by Jerusalem Demsas (The Atlantic; Dec. 12, 2022)
“The Billionaire’s Dilemma” by Jerusalem Demsas (The Atlantic; Aug. 4, 2022)
“Stuck! The Law and Economics of Residential Stagnation” by David Schleicher (Yale Law Review; Oct. 2017)
“Black Americans And The Racist Architecture of Homeownership” by Alisa Chang, Christopher Intagliata, and Jonaki Mehta (NPR; May 8, 2021)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Can race be transcended? Jan 12, 2023

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with author Thomas Chatterton Williams about race and identity in America. Thomas has analyzed racial identity through the lens of his own upbringing, and the performativity and pressures he experienced. In conversation with Sean, Thomas speaks about how he sees these identities as restrictive connections to the racial oppressions of the past, whether it's possible to achieve liberation without sacrificing solidarity, and on the complex interplay between race and class.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Thomas Chatterton Williams (@thomaschattwill), author; contributing writer, The Atlantic

References:

Self-Portrait in Black and White: Family, Fatherhood, and Rethinking Race by Thomas Chatterton Williams (W.W. Norton; 2019)
Losing My Cool: Love, Literature, and a Black Man's Escape from the Crowd by Thomas Chatterton Williams (Penguin; 2011)
White Fragilityby Robin DiAngelo (Beacon; 2018)
"Camus' Stance on Algeria Still Stokes Debate in France" by Eleanor Beardsley (NPR; Nov. 7, 2013)
The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky (1880)
Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehisi Coates (One World; 2018)
South to a Very Old Placeby Albert Murray (Vintage; 1991)
"The limits of anti-racism" by Adolph Reed (2009)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Editor: Amy Drozdowska
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Is ethical AI possible? Jan 09, 2023

Show notes

Sean Illing talks with Timnit Gebru, the founder of the Distributed AI Research Institute. She studies the ethics of artificial intelligence and is an outspoken critic of companies developing new AI systems. Sean and Timnit discuss the power dynamics in the world of AI, the discriminatory outcomes that these technologies can cause, and the need for accountability and transparency in the field.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Timnit Gebru (@timnitGebru), founder, Distributed AI Research Institute

References: