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156. From Marketing Mess to Brand Success, with Scott Miller Jun 11, 2021

Show notes

Today I am so excited to have Scott Miller back on the podcast to talk about marketing and branding, some of my favorite things! I really love the way Scott puts his books together, broken into 30 chapters with great, brain-friendly tips that you can begin implementing one day at a time. Essentially, the thought is that you can take a month and learn one lesson each day to uplevel in that particular area.

As you'll hear more in the conversation, this is the second book in a planned series of 10; the first of which Scott discussed Management Mess to Leadership Success last time he was on the show. Today is about going from Marketing Mess to Brand Success, plus a funny story about a popular product that was originally called the "I-Suck" – can you guess what it is? Hear the answer and learn more about Scott and his work in the show.

Show Notes:

[00:06] In today's episode, I'm delighted to bring back Scott Miller of Franklin Covey.
[01:17] Today is about going from a marketing mess to brand success.
[04:15] Scott shares more about who he is and what he does. He is a 25 year associate of the Franklin Covey Company.
[05:00] Today, we focus on Marketing Mess to Brand Success – the second of a ten-book series.
[05:56] If you have something to say, write a book. Your book has not been written until you have written your book.
[07:44] Scott's books are very practical and they all follow the same format with 30 challenges. The chapters are very intentionally breezy and short.
[09:14] There is enormous power in teaching through your messes.
[10:38] Scott shares his favorite marketing messes from the book.
[12:51] A lesson he learned is that you can't control all the outcomes of a marketing campaign. He shares some of the lessons he has learned in his book.
[14:49] Melina shares her own funny story from a marketing campaign she was part of.
[17:25] It's The Customer, Stupid is the first challenge in his book. As a marketer, you have to be the voice of the customer.
[18:55] The best salesperson isn't the person who has committed their third-quarter goal to memory, they've committed their client's third-quarter goal to memory.
[20:07] We tend to market the way we like to be marketed to. Don't always do what you like and know best. It may not always be the right vehicle.
[22:34] Marketers need to be close to the cash.
[23:27] A marketer's number one job is to generate revenue-paying clients.
[26:38] There is a massive difference between facts and your feelings, emotions, and opinions.
[27:48] As marketers have you done your research? Do you know what circumstance your client is in or are you guessing?
[29:38] What you say are the facts might just be your own biases creeping in because you are so passionate about your idea.
[30:22] 93% of organizations achieve success with an emergent strategy, not their deliberate strategy. They often have to pivot and search for new opportunities.
[32:02] It is important to speak your customers' language.
[33:15] The biggest messaging mistake people make is that they tell their story. They don't tell a story that their client can find themselves in.
[36:01] Never forget you have two buyers. You have an internal and external buyer.
[37:58] Marketing is very reactive. Branding is this touchstone and is proactive.
[39:35] You have to build a brand and earn a brand with some of the outcomes of your marketing efforts. You need to have a strong marketing strategy that helps you build revenue and a brand.
[40:07] Your brand is a result of this: did you make and keep a promise? Brands are hard to build.
[41:19] Scott shares his story about a brand being a memory with Ralph Lauren.
[44:51] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[45:47] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
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Melina on LinkedIn
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Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Marketing Mess to Brand Success: 30 Challenges to Transform Your Organization's Brand (and Your Own) by Scott Miller
Management Mess to Leadership Success: 30 Challenges to Become the Leader You Would Follow by Scott Miller
Speed of Trust: The One Thing That Changes Everything by Stephen M. R. Covey
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey
You're Invited: The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence by Jon Levy
The Life-Saving Skill of Story: The Life-Saving Skill of Story by Michelle Auerbach
Building a StoryBrand: Clarify Your Message So Customers Will Listen by Donald Miller
Marketing Made Simple: A Step-by-Step StoryBrand Guide for Any Business by Donald Miller
Neurobranding: Strategies for shaping consumer behavior by Dr. Peter Steidl

Connect with Scott:

Past Episodes & Other Important Links:

155. What is Behavioral Baking? Jun 04, 2021

Show notes

Today I am excited to share a favorite analogy I came up with while writing my book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You. It has also been awesome to see how well this is resonating with readers, at speaking engagements, and in the interviews I've done so far. It is one of those great comparisons that people just get. Which I love!

I know a lot of people have been asking questions like "How do I start applying behavioral economics in my business?" or "What is the best approach?" or "Where do I start?"

This idea of behavioral baking is my answer. Because it has resonated so well, I felt it needed its own dedicated episode, so here we are.

Show Notes:

[00:06] Today's episode is all about behavioral baking.
[02:21] Once you have an understanding of some key concepts in behavioral economics, it is time to start combining them for application.
[03:18] Understanding the ingredients is important as you get started. A very basic knowledge can get you ready for some easy recipes. You will probably start out with something simple like a boxed mix as you establish a comfort zone.
[04:56] Each new step presents another opportunity to learn, but you will grow as you rise to each challenge.
[05:19] Lesson: even when you are trying to copy something, it is harder than it looks and will take a little practice to master that new technique.
[05:52] The ingredients you learn about individually at first are the concepts. They are your butter, sugar, flour, and eggs.
[07:28] You don't need every single ingredient every single time, and you don't need to be too heavy-handed with any ingredient. What you DO need to know before you jump in is…what are you making!?
[08:04] This is the part where most businesses go wrong, not spending enough time really understanding the problem before jumping into solution mode.
[10:23] An example where I used this in my corporate work.
[11:53] Choices are relative and heavily context-dependent.
[12:25] Working with the brain will make it easier to understand and solve problems in your business. But if you don't take the time up front to understand what you are trying to accomplish, you will still be throwing noodles at the wall.
[13:49] With the consequences so distant, it is easy to ignore and not change behavior. And still, your logical brain's approach would likely be to go with logical arguments for why this matters.
[15:50] Your brain is programmed to wonder what could be (optimism bias) and fear for what might happen if you choose to leave it there and it was a winner (loss aversion).
[17:12] Change doesn't have to be hard. Changing the natural rules of the subconscious brain that have been developing for generations is hard. Understanding them and working with those habits can make seemingly insurmountable changes become easy.
[18:38] The result is often more important than the path to get there.
[19:56] Understanding the result you want to help your customer, member, or client experience is so important.
[20:29] Remember that your brain will want to educate and feel like throwing in some extra logic "couldn't hurt," but it absolutely can.
[22:02] Trying to force education can actually backfire and cause people to make worse decisions in multiple areas of life. Once their brain is calmer they may have the bandwidth to learn more and build on the foundation.
[24:03] Behavioral baking is a way of thinking that can help you use behavioral economics to get to that outcome.
[26:25] I've been a big baker my whole life. Listeners have suggested it might be fun to have me share recipes from The Brainy Business and what I'm baking (to keep the behavioral baking concept going)...what do you think? Good idea or weird? Let me know using the links below.
[27:21] The result is often more important than the path to get there.
[30:19] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Past Episodes & Other Important Links:

Get What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

154. Failure is an Opportunity not Ending, with Madeline Quinlan May 28, 2021

Show notes

Today I am honored to be joined by Madeline (Maddie) Quinlan, co-founder of Salient. Just like last week's guest, Nuala Walsh, you've heard Maddie's voice when she was part of the contingent who came on to discuss the Global Association of Applied Behavioral Scientists, or GAABS, when it first launched in the fall of 2020.

In addition to being head of membership and a co-founder of GAABS, in her role as a director of Salient, Maddie works as a behavioral scientist and has expertise spanning private, public, and not-for-profit organizations. She focuses primarily on the areas of finance, energy, and risk management. I also love that her bio states that she believes in "relentless betterment and radical authenticity" – great word choice!

Show Notes:

[00:06] In today's episode, I'm very delighted to introduce you to Maddie Quinlan, co-founder of Salient.
[01:01] In addition to being head of membership and a co-founder of GAABS, in her role as a director of Salient, Maddie works as a behavioral scientist and has expertise spanning private, public, and not-for-profit organizations.
[03:11] Maddie shares more about who she is and what she does. She has been working exclusively as a behavioral scientist for the last three years and prior to that, she worked a lot in finance.
[04:26] She shares more about her leap from finance to behavioral science.
[06:07] She ended up leaving her job in finance to go from Canada to England to obtain her master's degree in behavioral science from the London School of Economics.
[06:46] Melina shares her (very similar!) story about the moment she knew her destiny was in behavioral economics.
[08:52] Maddie met her business partner through the program in London and they started Salient in the middle of doing their dissertations.
[11:38] If you are really pursuing something that rings true to you or something that you are incredibly passionate about...something that really embodies who you are...it becomes so much more. When you live and work that way, you end up attracting others with the same perspective and interests. Then, you can all work together to elevate that common passion over time. You find your tribe.
[12:24] Any individual behavioral scientist can still move things, but if we all band together then that is where really fundamental and impactful change can happen.
[13:59] Salient was created to bridge the gap from the academic side and practical application side and be able to take them to different sectors.
[15:32] In the world of behavioral science and behavior change, we know that some things work and we know that a lot of things don't.
[16:59] She shares one of her favorite projects in the pension space.
[17:33] If you want somebody to do something you must make it easy.
[18:57] What people think and say they want is very different from how they actually behave and show up.
[21:12] Context definitely matters when deciding if you start with questions or just jump into testing. In an ideal world you can do some qualitative testing to inform your more large and widespread quantitative work.
[22:12] They suggest piloting a lot. It is beneficial for clients, project owners, and behavioral scientists.
[25:10] Just because something didn't happen the way you wanted it to, doesn't mean that it is bad. It can be a good opportunity to dig in a little bit further.
[25:27] The biggest mistake businesses make when they go to apply behavioral science or behavioral economics is they start working on the wrong problem and jump straight into "solving" mode.
[27:10] The insights on what doesn't work are just as valuable as what does.
[28:39] In her dissertation study, they found that the meditation group had a measurably higher rate of temporal (time) discounting than the control and the jazz condition. People were actually more likely to consume in the present and choose that smaller "sooner" reward over a larger "later" reward.
[29:50] We as a field need to embrace the results instead of feeling like there is a failure in a null or negative result.
[32:01] We would never have more questions if we didn't run into roadblocks with intended results.
[33:42] You really want to shape your experiments for everything you want to find out and how you can minimize your confounding variables as much as possible.
[35:28] If we were to publish all of the behavioral insights that companies are actually using, we would all be able to do a lot better. There is a way for us to come together and share working techniques to help everyone.
[37:31] When we are changing human behavior, the risk of doing it properly is really high in some cases. Attention to the quality and rigor with which we are conducting ourselves in this field is going to be even more important.
[39:22] Maddie shares what else she is looking forward to in the next five years.
[41:06] She thinks the next phase of behavioral science will have a bigger focus on personalization. The next frontier will be tailoring individualization in behavioral science.
[43:01] Remember, there is a person behind every decision.
[45:02] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[46:41] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Save More Tomorrow: Practical Behavioral Finance Solutions to Improve 401(k) Plans by Shlomo Benartzi

Connect with Maddie:

Past Episodes & Other Important Links:

Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

153. Only 1% of People Blow the Whistle at Work—How to Fix That, with Nuala Walsh May 21, 2021

Show notes

Today I am very honored to have Nuala Walsh join me on the show. You have heard her voice before as she was part of the contingent that came on to discuss The Global Association of Applied Behavioural Scientists or GAABS when it first launched in the fall of 2020. In addition to her work to get that started, she is the founder of a consultancy called MindEquity, which specializes in reputation communications, conduct, culture and behaviour change. She is the former chief marketing officer at Standard Life Aberdeen and also previously worked at Blackrock, Merrill Lynch, and PA Consulting. In addition to her consulting work and research (some of which we discuss today), she is also the vice-chair for UN Women (UK), a member of the Inclusion Advisory Board at The Football Association, on the Gender Taskforce at World Athletics, and more.

Nuala is a smart person doing amazing things to be sure and also just a wonderful human. She was kind enough to be a guest lecturer in my Internal Communications and Change Management course at Texas A&M talking about how to apply behavioral economics into mergers and acquisitions. It was truly a fascinating discussion the students loved. Today we are talking about some research Nuala conducted that ended up as an article in the Harvard Business Review. This research is about blowing the whistle at work and she has made some really important — somewhat surprising — discoveries and recommendations.

Show Notes:

[00:07] I'm very excited to introduce you to Nuala Walsh, to share about the behavioral science of standing up and blowing the whistle at work.
[01:02] In addition to Nuala's work to get GAABS started, she is a founder of a consultancy called MindEquity which specialized in reputation communications, conduct, culture, and behavior change.
[03:45] Nuala is a repeat guest on The Brainy Business podcast. She made her first appearance on the GAABS episode.
[04:22] Nuala shares about her background and who she is.
[05:46] She does a huge amount of work for sports in the discrimination space. The purpose is to level the playing field for athletics.
[08:01] Nuala shares how she got into the diversity, equity and inclusion space.
[09:47] Nuala shares her experiences working with the UN women's Association, World Athletics, and Football Association.
[12:38] Melina reflects on a point from Jon Levy's interview: in business, most hire for competence first, then honesty, and benevolence at some point. Benevolence is actually most important.
[14:13] Diversity starts with actually hiring diversity (not just have them included in the slate of candidates).
[15:09] One thing that companies can do is to listen to the recruitment agencies. The change really starts at the top.
[16:54] Companies should take the outside view and listen to the other groups that have independent objectivity more than themselves.
[19:02] Nuala shares her research about speaking up at work when seeing wrongdoings. Too many people witness the wrongdoing and stay silent.
[19:56] Her work really focused on how to get bystanders to act.
[21:17] 82% of whistleblowers suffer harassment. 60% of those lost their jobs and 17% lost their homes. 10% of those people attempted suicide. That is a high price to pay for speaking up.
[23:47] In her study, only 10% of people even took the first step of figuring out how to report the problem.
[26:14] It is only estimated that 1.4% of employees blow the whistle and actually do something.
[28:24] With a zero-tolerance policy people are not going to be very keen to speak up.
[31:34] The thing that struck Nuala most in her studies was the number of people that found whistleblowing as an act of courage.
[33:41] If somebody prevents some kind of disaster you can make a hero out of that story and celebrate them. It recognizes their work without putting anyone else at risk.
[34:51] When the environment changes, like working from home, people are more likely to report something (or at least say they will)
[35:21] Using the courage stories as evidence-based tracking is key.
[38:38] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[40:11] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

You're Invited: The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence by Jon Levy

Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life by Kwame Christian

Connect with Nuala: (MAKE THIS COLUMN 1)

Past Episodes & Other Important Links: (MAKE THIS COLUMN 2)

Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

152. A Surprise Guest... May 14, 2021

Show notes

Today there is a very special interview taking place on the show, in that the person being interviewed is…me! And, no, it isn't me asking myself questions. I guess that is kind of like every solo episode I've done or much weirder where I would speak about myself in the third person.

The interviewer today is Michael Bartlett. He is the Director of Experience Innovation at JMARK and also trains people to pass the Certified Customer Experience Exam (CCXP). We got connected because he is hooked on books. As an avid book junkie, he reviews many of them on his YouTube channel, called the "CCXP Exam Simulator."

As he was prepping to do a review of my new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, for his YouTube channel, he asked if I had considered having someone turn the tables a bit to interview me here on The Brainy Business. I said why not! As I've always found it much easier to answer questions about myself and an experience, than to just talk about it. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did!

[00:38] Today there is a very special interview taking place on the show, in that the person being interviewed is…me!
[01:03] The interviewer is Michael Bartlett. He is the Director of Experience Innovation at JMARK and also trains people to pass the Certified Customer Experience Exam (CCXP).
[04:24] If you want to understand customers you have to understand how their minds work.
[04:52] Melina shares her journey and interest in behavioral economics.
[07:28] Fun fact: She is a classically trained opera singer and enjoys singing – this led to a big realization about a tendency toward perfectionism in life and business.
[09:58] It can really be one piece that is throwing everything else off just a little bit.
[11:47] Our brains will limit us and feel like you pushed too far. Your body can keep going but your mind feels like you should stop.
[12:34] How our brain can hold us back psychologically in sports also translates into business.
[12:46] Michael shares about his journey.
[14:13] Melina shares how and why The Brainy Business came about. She was writing blogs for entrepreneurs and editing books as a side hustle.
[16:32] When they moved, she had a unique opportunity to really just focus on school for her master's degree and building a new type of business around behavioral economics.
[19:04] On May 19, 2018, after encouragement from a mastermind, Melina started to rebrand her company and launched the podcast with its first three episodes on July 6, 2018.
[20:13] Melina always knew she would have a book.
[21:53] She ended up finalizing her publisher in late May 2020 and the full manuscript was due at the end of August – a summer of writing!
[23:30] When reading the book, you can focus on the areas that really interest you or learn more about a particular subject. She also includes corresponding podcast episodes.
[25:03] She had an idea of some topics that needed to be in the book. She created it similar to a "choose your own adventure" book in the way that you can follow the parts that interest you most. Interconnectivity is so critical to how the brain works and that was important to reflect in the book's format.
[26:06] She gives her readers the opportunity to make connections to jump around in a controlled environment. She is creating a course that will be available to purchase and go along with the book and go even deeper.
[28:24] At the end of the book, Melina gives a really good example of how you can chain these techniques altogether.
[30:01] Melina really wants her readers to use, apply, and do what they set out to do with the book.
[30:50] The most important thing for when you are going to get started is spending more time thinking about the problem. Taking the time to know what you are doing, why you are doing it, and why it matters is paramount.
[31:42] You can go and use behavioral economics and have a good impact within your business if you take the time to understand the concepts and how they can work together. Everything is a learning opportunity to grow.
[32:21] There are times when you should reach out and find a partner, especially if it is a really big and critical project.
[33:32] Test small and test often.
[35:18] Melina shares the books that have inspired and impacted her.
[38:02] Melina shares her two recommendations of books to really dig into behavioral economics.
[39:23] First nugget Michael really liked from Melina's new book was when she reminded everybody about the importance of first impressions and the mode people are in when they first encounter your business.
[39:46] Michael shares two quotes that were huge takeaways from Melina's book.
[41:35] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[42:49] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is now available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! PLUS, get the free Companion Workbook for What Your Customer Wants within the community!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Connect with Michael:

Michael on YouTube

Order your copy of What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

151. How To Change, an interview Dr. Katy Milkman May 07, 2021

Show notes

Today I am very excited to have Dr. Katy Milkman joining me on the show. She has done so much amazing work over the years, some of which you have heard me share in episodes already, including the fresh start effect and temptation bundling, which as mentioned in last week's episode with Jon Levy, is the most downloaded episode of the year to date.

I love her research and the insights she has been able to share with the world so far. As you'll hear in today's episode, Katy is an amazingly smart person who has a knack for finding links others may not have seen yet. She leads amazing teams of students at Wharton and works with Angela Duckworth on the Behavior Change for Good Initiative, she is also the host of the Choiceology podcast, and her brand new book, How To Change, just came out this week.

Show Notes:

[00:07] In today's episode I'm very excited to introduce you to Dr. Katy Milkman, author of the new book How To Change.
[01:18] She leads amazing teams of students at Wharton and works with Angela Duckworth on the Behavior Change for Good Initiative. She is also the host of the Choiceology podcast, and her brand new book, How To Change, just came out this week.
[03:34] Katy shares about her background and who she is.
[05:35] Melina and Katy discuss the foreword of Katy's new book written by Angela Duckworth (you won't believe what she said!).
[07:53] Katy shares about her fresh start research and how it all started.
[09:11] There are moments throughout our lives that feel like new beginnings. New Years' feels like a new beginning, but you can also have other new beginnings.
[10:34] Their research on fresh starts and the power of those moments to change our motivation and therefore our ability to make an impact for the better on our lives is the biggest ah-ha for Katy from her research.
[12:44] The fresh start research took about two years from the first conversation to the publication. It was quick because the findings weren't subtle. (Katy and Melina discuss the differing timelines in academia and business.)
[14:33] They had some results and it was clear what they had learned within a few months, but the insights and documenting of the results usually takes the longest.
[15:45] Katy shares another favorite research project she was part of about making people grittier.
[17:38] Instead of giving poorly performing students advice, they flipped the script and put them in the position to be the advice-givers to underclassmen.
[19:01] When people are asked for advice, it improves their motivation to achieve in that domain.
[20:56] There is this huge power in recognizing that when you coach others you are helping yourself.
[23:21] Too often we don't take the time to figure out what is the actual barrier to change.
[24:10] It is important to make sure you are not solving the wrong problem before you deploy your solution.
[25:53] 9% of premature deaths in the world are due to inadequate physical activity. If we can figure these behavior change problems, we can really save lives.
[26:48] 40% of premature deaths due to decisions that could be changed. This is a really big opportunity for impact, but it all starts with recognizing one of the challenges any individual is having.
[28:41] If I have this problem. I know a lot of people struggle with this as well. I am going to figure out the why for all of us and how we might change it and make it better. It can help you change everything by looking at it in a positive way.
[30:26] Katy shares one of the most frustrating findings of her career. A ton of things did work, but it didn't create lifelong change.
[33:23] It is important to have a reasonable goal with behavior change.
[34:52] If you want to create durable change, it has to be a durable commitment and durable solutions instead of something temporary.
[36:42] It can be really disruptive to have a fresh start if things are going really well. It is really hard to hold on and keep making progress.
[38:46] If we want to change we have to remain vigilant.
[39:27] Katy and Melina share their love for Harry Potter.
[42:30] Check out the Harry Potter audiobooks. They are SO amazing!
[44:09] Mindset has a huge impact on what we can achieve.
[47:05] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[48:31] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially on presale and available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia. Buy today and be one of the first to receive a copy when it officially launches May 11, 2021. (NEXT WEEK!!!)

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

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Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be by our guest, Katy Milkman
Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance by Angela Duckworth

Connect with Katy:

Past Episodes:

Check out (and preorder!) What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

150. Using Behavioral Science to Build Connections, an interview with Jon Levy, author of You're Invited Apr 30, 2021

Show notes

Today I am very excited to have Jon Levy and I am also very excited for our big milestone. This is the 150th episode of The Brainy Business podcast. Can you believe it? We now have well over 350,000 downloads in more than 170 countries (thank you, everyone, for tuning in and sharing with your friends!).

You are going to learn so much interesting stuff from this conversation, I absolutely loved chatting with Jon. It's no wonder with all the practice he has had amazing interactions with some of the most accomplished and diverse people on the planet: Grammy award winners, Nobel laureates, editors in chief, Olympic gold medalists, actors. You name it and they have probably accepted an invitation to dinner at Jon's place. You can learn all about how he has done this and the true genius behind these fantastic interactions and getting to really know and trust people in our conversation today.

Show Notes:

[00:06] In today's episode I'm very excited to introduce you to Jon Levy, author of the new book You're Invited.
[02:07] The most downloaded episode of the year so far was episode number 136 on temptation bundling (fitting, since Dr. Katy Milkman will be here next week to discuss her new book! Link below).
[04:39] Jon and Melina's books are coming out on the same day, May 11th. Funny bundling ideas. :)
[06:40] Jon shares about his background and some of his favorite studies.
[08:41] He spends most of his life on the application of research. There is so much we have learned about human behavior, but we very rarely use it.
[09:46] Jon shares his experiences with inviting accomplished strangers to his house for dinner.
[12:01] His objective was to bring people together and bond them in hopes that it will improve their lives and hopefully they could have a larger impact on society.
[14:16] The more novel something is, the more we are enticed to explore and understand it.
[15:33] Because of the IKEA effect, they knew if they could get people to assemble, build, or work together on something, they will bond more with each other and care about the company.
[17:23] Applied behavioral science and academic behavioral science both have their places and they are both really important.
[20:07] You don't want to be a sponsor. You want to be a partner.
[21:20] Be a partner on two things that people will really remember instead of 10 random sponsorships. It is going to be so much more valuable and impactful over time.
[24:07] In the beginning Jon started by inviting the people he knew that were very impressive and then he kept asking for recommendations. After some time, he did hire a research team to find people to invite.
[25:37] The key is understanding what are the behaviors or interests of the general group you want to invite.
[28:26] If you can curate an environment with other high-profile people they will go far out of their way to attend.
[29:18] It is this opportunity to meet interesting people, a novel experience, and something that is generous so they don't have to be worried that you are after anything.
[31:34] As a general rule, they have one person per industry, a maximum of two.
[32:37] At the dinners, they can't talk about their work so they end up having the kind of conversations that you have with your best friends. These conversations are a bit more vulnerable or intimate in your life.
[34:14] Researchers in general view trust as being made up of three things: competence, honesty, and benevolence. Though they are not equally weighted. We value benevolence more than honesty, and honesty more than competence. (Unfortunately, businesses hire people the exact opposite way - shift this practice to stand out and have a better team.)
[36:27] By leveraging the IKEA effect these vulnerability loops happen quickly. We need to be on the lookout for people sending out vulnerability loop signals.
[37:07] Trust does not precede vulnerability. We have to be willing to put ourselves out there if we want to have profound trust.
[38:45] Because of loss aversion we feel twice as much pain for when something doesn't work out as the pleasure of when it does.
[41:09] Networking evokes feelings of being dirty because it is not a natural way for people to connect. Instead, we want to look at how we make friends.
[41:57] Usually, shared interests or connections cause people to be friends. Participate in joint activities you actually enjoy.
[44:27] Melina share's about quarantine activities with her family. Fun quips about Mjolnir. (Bonus points if you know what that means without looking it up! Hint: Marvel.)
[45:38] Relationships will really define the quality of your life. Be willing to be a little bit vulnerable.
[47:33] When you have an activity as the social catalyst, it feels significantly less awkward.
[50:44] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[52:16] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially on presale and available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia. Buy today and be one of the first to receive a copy when it officially launches May 11, 2021.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Preorder Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

You're Invited: The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence by our guest, Jon Levy
Speed of Trust: The One Thing That Changes Everything by Stephen M. R. Covey
The Life-Saving Skill of Story: The Life-Saving Skill of Story (Resilience) by Michelle Auerbach
Influence PEOPLE: Powerful Everyday Opportunities to Persuade that are Lasting and Ethical by Brian Ahearn
The Behaviour Business: How to apply behavioural science for business success by Richard Chataway
How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be by Katy Milkman

Connect with Jon:

Check out (and preorder!) What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

149. Familiarity Bias: Why the Devil You Know Feels Safer Than the Devil You Don't, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Apr 23, 2021

Show notes

Today we will be talking all about familiarity bias. Sometimes on the show, I share concepts with you that are a bit foreign. Like one of my all-time favorites in hyperbolic time discounting or even something like "choice architecture" which can sound a little intimidating. Others are like the topic of today's show. Familiarity bias is less scary because...it's familiar!

It's a term that is a bit like a warm hug, but that doesn't mean there aren't things for you to learn. This is a bias that can serve you well in life and business but it also often steers people wrong. So it is important to know how it works, and what to be on the lookout for on both the positive and negative sides.

Show Notes:

[00:07] Today's behavioral economics foundations episode is about familiarity bias.
[02:30] The subconscious brain makes decisions using rules of thumb based on predictability. It likes to know what is coming next so it can keep the reins which means it has a strong bias toward things it is familiar with.
[04:03] What matters is knowing that the more people become familiar with things, the more likely they are to prefer them; to have a bias toward them.
[04:22] Studies have shown that our bias toward the familiar can make it so we make worse bets, that we invest in the wrong things, that we will be more likely to hold out in jobs that we have outgrown or keep pouring money into projects we should have let go of.
[05:49] That new job opportunity or relationship or project or apartment or whatever else is presenting itself will probably be scary at first, but that doesn't mean it is bad or wrong. Embrace the feeling and jump in knowing that soon it will be like that song you hated the first time you heard it.
[07:54] Eventually, and much faster than you think, this will become familiar—the new normal. You will adjust. Look at how so many people adjusted to working from home or wearing masks during the pandemic.
[09:07] Is there a "way you've always done things" that feels like you can't change it but might just be familiarity bias?
[09:48] Awareness of familiarity bias can help you ask that question when you feel hesitant to take a step in a new direction.
[11:59] Don't be afraid to reuse an ad a few times, people might like it more as they continue to see it.
[13:47] You don't have to constantly feel the pressure to reinvent the wheel.
If something worked, keep doing it! Maybe you want to do a slight tweak to see if you can improve on a good thing, but if it ain't broke, don't throw it out and start on something new.
[15:43] It's ok to prioritize an important project now and let something else that is doing fine sit on the shelf a little longer. It may be becoming familiar and making your customers like it (and you) even more with time.
[16:58] Some things are not going to benefit you if you change them up. They could actually be a detriment.
[17:40] When you are feeling like you've done something a few times so people must be getting bored with it and they'll leave if you don't do something new and fresh, remind your conscious brain that people like familiarity!
[18:09] If you have anyone, customers or team members (or family members!) who hate the idea of a change and fight or resist at first, give it a little time to let familiarity bias set in.
[19:21] What do you have in your business that is best to keep familiar for your customers?
[19:48] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially on presale and available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia. Buy today and be one of the first to receive a copy when it officially launches May 11, 2021.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Preorder Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Apply now to join the book launch team (and read it before anyone else!)

Past Episodes and Other Resources:

Check out (and preorder!) my upcoming book on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

148. The Speed and Economics of Trust, an Interview with Stephen M.R. Covey Apr 16, 2021

Show notes

Today I am very excited to have Stephen M. R. Covey with us on the show today. In case his name sounds familiar, it's because his father Dr. Stephen Covey wrote The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People—one of the best known and most highly acclaimed business books of all time.

And his son (our guest) has done some very amazing things in his career as well, living on that family legacy of greatness. As president and CEO of Covey Leadership Center, Stephen nearly doubled revenues while increasing profits by 12 times. During that period, the company expanded throughout the world into over 40 countries, greatly increasing the value of the brand and enterprise. The company was valued at $2.4 million when Stephen was named CEO, and, within three years, he had grown shareholder value to $160 million in a merger he orchestrated with Franklin Quest to form FranklinCovey.

His book The Speed of Trust: The One Thing That Changes Everything, has sold more than 2 million copies and is a fantastic read. While it isn't specifically naming concepts of behavioral economics, as you'll hear in the episode it is very well rooted in that space. Today Stephen will share his "economics of trust" equation plus a bonus qualitative measure of trust that didn't make it into the book. (Stick around until the end to hear that.) He also touches on some of the 13 behaviors that lead to great trust, so it is all about the behavior and economics of trust.

Show Notes:

[00:08] In today's episode I'm very excited to introduce you to Stephen M.R. Covey to discuss his book, The Speed of Trust.
[02:35] Stephen will share with you his "economics of trust" equation plus a bonus qualitative measure of trust that didn't make it into the book
[04:47] Stephen shares about himself and his father.
[06:25] He has a feeling of stewardship and responsibility to try to carry on his father's legacy and the great work he has done. He is very proud of his heritage.
[08:41] In his case there was somewhat a transference of trust from his father to him, but not completely. He had to earn it as well.
[10:20] Stephen shares his experience with a large group of naysayers in the merger and how trust made it work.
[11:49] There is a risk to get real and be transparent, but there is a greater risk of not doing it.
[12:31] The power of going first—of being transparent and vulnerable—invites reciprocity back. The vast majority reciprocate and that is powerful.
[15:40] The key to influence is to first be influenced. In the words of his father, "Seek first to understand and then to be understood."
[16:27] Understanding is not necessarily agreement. If people feel understood they feel much more open to your influence.
[17:29] Trust affects everything. Trust is also learnable as a skill.
[18:50] Trust always affects two measurable outcomes: speed and cost. When the trust goes down in any relationship in an environment you will always find that the speed goes down with it and the cost goes up. That is a low-trust tax.
[19:56] When the trust goes up in a relationship, the speed goes up and the cost comes down. That is a high-trust dividend.
[22:34] Stephen shares a few illustrations of the speed of trust from his book.
[23:24] Client referrals offer a transference of trust.
[26:31] Nothing is as fast as the speed of trust. Nothing is as profitable as the economics of trust.
[28:21] The cost of distrust is very real. The speed goes down and the cost comes up.
[31:19] Smart trust is having your propensity to trust and balancing that with your analysis. Start with the heart and you will see possibilities you would never see otherwise. Then balance that with your head.
[33:46] The vast majority of people respond well to being trusted and they rise to the occasion. They perform better, develop capabilities, and reciprocate by giving the trust back to you.
[36:02] Most leaders can be far more trusting than they are being. Our big challenge is that we are not trusting enough.
[37:47] There is actually more control in a high trust culture than there is in a rules-based culture.
[39:02] Two great practices are to declare your intent and assume positive intent as a starting point. Be trusting as well as trustworthy.
[41:19] It can help you build trust enormously well and fast to have a process for accountability upfront.
[43:01] Energy and joy are the two keys on the qualitative side. When the trust goes up in a relationship, the energy and joy in all forms go up with it.
[45:01] In high trust cultures people are more energized, more engaged, less stressed, and less burned out.
[47:13] Inspiration is the new engagement. Inspired employees are far more productive than engaged employees.
[47:49] To be trusted is the most inspiring form of human motivation. It brings us the very best in all of us.
[49:44] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[51:01] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially on presale and available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia. Buy today and be one of the first to receive a copy when it officially launches May 11, 2021.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Preorder Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉
Apply now to join the book launch team (and read it before anyone else!)

Get the Books Mentioned on this Episode:

Connect with Stephen:

Past Episodes:

147. What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You: All About Melina's First Book Apr 09, 2021

Show notes

I can hardly believe the topic of this episode! It has been such a long time in the making and I'm so honored and overjoyed to be able to share this with you. My first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, is coming out and will be available in the world starting May 11, 2021 in the US and shortly thereafter around the world. This book has been a labor of love and I am so unbelievably ready for it to be out in your hands!

In this episode, I will let you know what to expect when you get your copy of the book, why I wrote it, and some behind-the-scenes details from the process.

Show Notes:

[00:08] Today's episode is a sneak peek at my brand new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You.
[02:29] I've known for a long time that I want to write a book (many books if I'm honest...so expect more in the future!). I would say that I have been pretty actively pursuing the process of getting an agent and a publisher since late 2018 when the podcast was really gaining some good traction.
[04:04] A behind the scenes look of how I found my publisher.
[04:47] The next step was to finalize the best approach to my first book, and it was determined that going with a format that is very much in line with what you have come to know and love here on the podcast: what behavioral economics is, why it matters, and how to start applying it in business.
[06:29] Smart brands work with the subconscious mind of the customer, and can uncover things people didn't even know how to articulate for themselves. These are our favorite brands, the ones that change the world because they are so perfect people can't help but fall in love with them.
[07:30] Now with the power of behavioral economics we can understand the science of why people buy. There are business case studies and academic research among many fields and two Nobel prizes paving the way for businesses to use a recipe of sorts to begin applying this themselves.
[09:08] Existing books from the field were either too mainstream or too focused for people in business to use for application. I saw this space in the middle (and knew it existed from the thousands of you around the world who love The Brainy Business podcast).
[10:04] There was a gap, and so I have filled it with this book. That's why I wrote What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You. To give a practical how-to guide that you can actually use to start applying behavioral economics in business and uplevel your career. It is backed by tons of research, interviews, and my own experience over the years as an applied behavioral economist.
[11:31] It is conversational and fun to read so you will retain what you learn and keep going through the material while giving you the insights you need to start using the information.
[11:50] This book is not meant to sit on a shelf collecting dust. It isn't a one and done. It is created to make it really easy for you to use again and again, project after project.
[12:03] There is a free PDF workbook that goes along with the book you can download off my website (which will come out when the book does in May) with all sorts of tactics and ways to use the insights beyond what could fit in the book.
[13:05] It matters to me that everyone around the world has access to the awesomeness that is behavioral economics AND that they can start using it in a way that will get them results.
[13:54] This book was carefully curated into four parts, which are intentionally presented in a specific order.
[14:01] Part one helps you see your brain differently, to know how it really works, and be open to learning.
[14:33] Part two is dedicated to the concepts that are most applicable in business.
[15:34] At the end of each of these chapters you will find some tips and a prompt to start applying the information yourself. There is also information on the corresponding episodes of the podcast so you can go learn more about each concept, AND there is a section letting you know where you will see that particular concept come up again in part three of the book.
[16:14] The concepts you will find in part two of the book are framing, priming, anchoring & adjustment, relativity, loss aversion, scarcity, herding, social proof, nudges and choice architecture, the paradox of choice, partitioning, the pain of paying, surprise and delight, the peak-end rule, habits, and reciprocity.
[17:38] Part three builds upon the foundations (concepts) from the previous section and shows how they can be combined in various ways to get incredible results for businesses.
[19:00] Similar to the experience in part two, each chapter ends with a list of the concepts that were included within the stories or information in that chapter, so you can easily reference back to them as you begin the application process using the prompts provided.
[20:30] Part four is what helps this book be more than an interesting read. It shares some of your brain's biases and tricks that are there to keep you feeling safe but keep you stuck when you actually want to change.
[21:22] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially on presale and available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia. Buy today and be one of the first to receive a copy when it officially launches May 11, 2021.
[23:02] Thank you so much to everyone who has already preordered. It has been awesome to see traction already. The book has hit #1 new release status in multiple categories on Amazon including market research business books and business encyclopedias, many weeks before it is even available which is so cool. At one point so far it was in the top 25,000 books selling on Amazon of the nearly 50 million they have there, which is amazing.
[23:39] Thank you to the early readers and supporters.
[24:11] What an amazing ride it's been getting this book ready. I can't wait for you to receive yours and to hear what you think!

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

More from The Brainy Business: