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146. Using Anchoring in Negotiations, an Interview with Kwame Christian Apr 02, 2021

Show notes

Today I am so excited to have Kwame Christian back on the show. Kwame was first on the show back in July of 2020 in episode 107. There aren't a lot of repeat guests on the show because there are so many people out there I want to talk to and share with you; I am constantly trying to find new voices to bring on.

That being said, I had to have Kwame back for a few reasons.

For one thing, we have become friends over this past year and I know how much fun he is to talk to and such a wealth of information. When he came on the show we talked about having difficult conversations around race and inequality, which was influenced by the Black Lives Matter movement, the death of George Floyd, and other horrible events that started coming to a greater light in spring 2020. While Kwame quickly became a prominent voice in that space, it isn't his main focus or real area of genius. While prepping to have Kwame guest lecture for a class I recently taught on internal communication and change management at Texas A&M, I saw that he had a guide about using anchoring as a tool in negotiation and it was a clear opportunity to have him back to talk about his truest expertise – negotiation techniques.

Show Notes:

[00:06] In today's episode I'm so excited to have Kwame Christian back on the show, a rare repeat guest, to talk about using anchoring in negotiations.
[03:02] Kwame is the director of the American Negotiation Institute and host of the #1 negotiation podcast in the world, Negotiate Anything, which has over 2 million downloads in more than 180 countries.
[05:27] At the American Negotiation Institute they do negotiation trainings and business consulting.
[08:30] Kwame has a background in psychology.
[08:47] Kwame's philosophy for life is that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. His goal is to make these difficult conversations easier so you can live the best version of your life.
[09:04] Negotiation is a life philosophy that we filter every life conversation through. He thinks of every conversation in terms of a negotiation.
[11:39] There is a bias where we think that negotiation has to be adversarial. It doesn't need to be that way.
[12:00] Negotiation is any time you are in a conversation and somebody in the conversation wants something. The people that you negotiate with the most are the people closest to you.
[14:24] In every situation somebody wants something even if it is just to be heard or understood.
[15:14] If you think of a conversation as a negotiation then you are going to be more explicit with your desires and invite the other person to share what it is they want out of the interaction.
[17:31] Any interaction (even when money doesn't exchange hands), you are still trying to sell someone an idea that you need them to buy in on.
[18:06] Anchoring is the most powerful negotiation technique. You should always try to use it in some capacity.
[18:31] Anchoring with the most aggressive request that you can reasonably justify.
[21:02] If you have as much information or more information then you make the first offer because then you are in a position to create a competent anchor. If you have less information then you let them make the first offer and then you counter them.
[22:56] There are some glaring mistakes you can make if you anchor without having enough information.
[25:08] We need to be able to distinguish between rejection and resistance.
[27:58] The things you say have an impact. You want to calibrate that impact for maximum impact.
[29:57] Negotiation Genius talks about how to play defense when someone else anchors you.
[31:20] Anchoring plays a huge role in our psychology and if we don't recognize it we are going to do things that have a subtle impact on the subconscious of the person on the other side.
[33:37] Negotiating the agenda is one of the most important negotiations that does not occur.
[36:23] You have to be more mindful about what you are trying to accomplish.
[37:42] It is helpful to know what the person you are negotiating with cares about most.
[40:01] We have to ask questions and learn as much as we can so that we can try to solve the right problems.
[40:44] Assertiveness is taken differently depending on who you are. The way you frame something may be different depending on your gender.
[42:37] We have to play in the world we live in, but we can be doing things on the side to try and change them in the future.
[43:19] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[45:05] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially on presale and available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia. Buy today and be one of the first to receive a copy when it officially launches May 11, 2021.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let's connect:

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Preorder Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉
Apply now to join the book launch team (and read it before anyone else!)

Get the Books Mentioned on this Episode:

Connect with Kwame:

Past Episodes:

Check out (and preorder!) my upcoming book on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

145. The Power of Story, an Interview with Dr. Michelle Auerbach Mar 26, 2021

Show notes

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Michelle Auerbach. She and I met a few weeks back by an introduction from another podcast where we had both recently been guests, and it was clear we had a lot in common. When we had our "getting to know you" conversation I learned that Michelle's work was all about the power of story (while I happened to be working on the curriculum for my upcoming class on Creating BEtter Presentations using behavioral economics and story for Texas A&M University. (Register here)

During the conversation, we touch on several concepts that have their own past episodes, including those on the novelty and stories, nudges, framing, status quo bias, DOSE brain chemicals, and many more.

Show Notes:

[00:06] In today's episode I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Michelle Auerbach, author of Resilience: The Life-Saving Skill of Story.
[01:59] Emotion is needed to make decisions, and stories evoke emotions.
[03:48] Two days ago Dr. Auerbach defended her dissertation. (Congratulations!)
[05:08] Story has always been an enormous part of Michelle's life.
[07:14] She wanted to do change management in an organization because it is a place where all of the wisdom we've handed down shows up and helps people in their real everyday lives.
[09:09] Story does four really important change tasks.
[10:07] Story moves stuff from your short-term memory across to your long-term memory and allows you to hold on to information. It also allows you to see possibilities that you wouldn't see otherwise.
[11:40] Story is a biologically based mechanism for getting things done well.
[13:35] If you really focus on one great story, it has so much power behind it.
[15:16] Dopamine and Oxytocin create prosocial behavior.
[17:11] Hero's Journey is so complicated and has so many steps. If you do it right, you end up with the good stuff (but if you don't have the time or devotion it could be a jumbled mess).
[18:36] Michelle shares her three-part story structure: set the stage for what is going on, describe the trouble, what you did about it, and the benefits.
[20:54] Tell us what is going on, take us on a little journey where we explore the things that we need to know, and then tell us what you came to.
[22:53] Story matters no matter where you are and you can tell stories in different ways.
[24:19] Allowing diversity in the ways stories are told is fabulous.
[26:03] If you are on a team with people from more than one culture have everyone tell one of their favorite stories from childhood.
[27:44] Helping the audience participate in shaping the experience will make it so they are more invested and more likely to want to move forward (IKEA Effect).
[28:38] If you have a very strong why and you can bring that into the room in a very tactile way people will spend the rest of the day leading from that place.
[29:17] Melina shares about story cubes (get your own with the link below!)
[31:02] It is the details that evoke feelings that make the story work. Anything you can do to add visuals to storytelling is a really good idea because it helps to evoke feelings in another way.
[33:47] To be able to use a biological-based system for talking about it allows people to have better conversations, be more open, and feel more grounded while they are doing it.
[35:11] Story listening is important too. You can evoke good stories from people in a way that is healing to the people telling the stories.
[36:54] Decision making is impossible without feeling and stories evoke feeling. If you need people to make a decision in the room, you need to be telling stories along with the data you are giving.
[38:07] Storytelling definitely gets people over the hump of overvaluing their current state and undervaluing the change.
[39:03] Start by listening to other people's stories and hear what you like and what doesn't work for you. What is really possible for you?
[40:18] Ask the three story questions: What was going on? What did you do about it? What happened?
[42:23] If you say this is what was going on, this is what I did about it, and this is what happened to me, people wonder what would have happened for them and start to take it in more deeply instead of saying you're supposed to feel this way about this thing.
[44:53] Simple and positive nudges can have a huge impact on behavior.
[47:05] Everybody can be a great storyteller.
[50:01] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[51:32] Melina's first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially on presale and available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia. Buy today and be one of the first to receive a copy when it officially launches May 11, 2021.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Preorder Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Apply now to join the book launch team (and read it before anyone else!)

Get the Books & Tools Mentioned on this Episode:

Past Episodes and Other Important Links:

You Better Behave! - Melina is the MC for this free virtual masterclass - join us March 31!
Michelle's Website
Michelle on LinkedIn
Modaka Communications
Michelle on Instagram
Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab Certificate Program
Creating BEtter Presentations
Change Management
Framing
Novelty & Stories
Priming
Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals
Mirror Neurons
IKEA Effect
Interview with Kwame Christian
Availability
Overview of Personal Biases
Biases Toward Others – Including Groups
Status Quo Bias
Interview with Michael Schein
Expect Error
Give Feedback
Disney

Check out (and preorder!) my upcoming book on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

If you are outside the US, please complete this form to be first to know when the book is available near you AND to help show there is a presence in your country to speed along international agreements and get it to you faster!

144. Disney: A Behavioral Economics Analysis Mar 19, 2021

Show notes

It has been over a year since there was a company analysis episode on the show and they are coming back by popular demand! In addition to this episode about the happiest place (and perhaps the most magical company) on earth, there are behavioral economics analysis episodes on Apple Card, Costco, Peloton, and Starbucks (which quickly rose through the ranks to become the third most downloaded episode of all time) here on The Brainy Business. Links to all those (and so much more) below. Disney is such a massive company this episode could have gone in a lot of different ways (and I would guess it won't be the last time you hear me talk about Disney on the show). Today is mostly focused on traditional Disney: amusement parks, movies, and a bit about Disney+. I'll go through a whole bunch of concepts from behavioral economics that I see them using/leveraging in their work, and explain what you can learn from Disney in your business. Show Notes: [02:10] It is important to acknowledge that Disney is a massive organization with many, many facets and paths I could have taken this episode down. I would be willing to bet that there could be an entire podcast that is exclusively dedicated to the behavioral science of Disney and it would not run out of content. [03:12] Knowing coronavirus has impacted their numbers, before the pandemic, they were reported as having 210,000 employees and revenue of about $60 billion. [03:23] That is before launching Disney+, which has been the most successful launch of a streaming service to date. In a little over a year, Disney+ is over halfway to being the largest streaming company in the world. [05:38] Their focus on innovation and always working to be better makes them stand out. Among the 210,000 employees I mentioned earlier, there are over 20 behavioral scientists, along with hundreds of imagineers creating the amazing features and attractions around the parks and experiences throughout the world. [06:14] They have an incredible talent for balancing expectations with surprise and delight in this beautiful dance that works with the brain's bias for the status quo. [07:11] If any of the things you expected of Disney were to change it would be a letdown and a negative experience. You would have negative dopamine because your expectations weren't met and it can tarnish the brand. [07:57] These constant little tweaks and adaptations keep it fresh at Disney without being so different you lose the nostalgia factor and trigger ambiguity or uncertainty aversion. Enough remains the same to find that perfect balance of new and nostalgic. Because we have a bias for the familiar and love to share particularly great experiences with others, especially the next generation, it is important to keep some things static even over decades. [08:51] This embracing of nostalgia goes beyond the parks. Their movies and merchandise build on this concept as well. [11:12] Our brains love a little novelty and Disney incorporates theirs along with the IKEA effect. [11:36] Disney has little surprises throughout their parks. For example, the hidden Mickeys around Disneyland and Disney World–reportedly about 1000 per park. [12:19] Disney also does a great job of putting little "easter eggs" in their movies, particularly in its subsidiary brands. [13:36] Those little wins that help you feel smart also help you shape your experience with the brand. You look for little hidden gems and get to be part of the magic. [14:45] Being part of the fun and shaping the experience makes people like it more, and in Disney's case, it is also a great way to sell lots of other merchandise. [15:57] Scarcity creates buzz and excitement, we herding humans love to follow the crowd and if we see some social proof that an item is popular AND in short supply we can't help but get excited. [16:40] Having others spread the word about you and create their own fan version of your creations is another great reflection of how much people love Disney. [18:27] Really thinking through those experiences, caring that much, is a gift (reciprocity), and one that people repay Disney with by being loyal fans of the entire organization. [20:08] When there is something to DO it is easier to forget about how long you are waiting (combating idleness aversion). [21:19] Turning that line into a dopamine generating anticipation-building experience is a great way to make it so we end up loving the thing we probably would have thought we would hate! That anticipation is made possible by making the experience fun and getting people excited about what is to come. [22:35] Our brains love that little tease and waiting to see if something is going to live up to our expectations, we will hype it up in our brains while waiting to see what happens. [23:25] Some of the guiding principles at Disney include Mickey's 10 Commandments. Think of these as a handbook or a set of value statements. [24:58] When you expect error (a key concept of nudging) and think about all the ways to make it easy for people to not get stuck, it can make for a much better overall experience. [26:08] Consider the simple frame of being "the happiest place on earth" or "where dreams come true." This frame works as a prime for the experience people have with the brand. It's a very simple tactic, but hugely important. Not only does it shape the customer experience, but it can shape the employee experience as well. [27:21] Going through a process of making the impossible possible means a lot of variety from one project to the next, so they leave lots of room to let each project have a flexible approach. However, because there is some framework needed, they have a set of questions to help guide every project. [29:29] Asking great questions adds to that thoughtfulness and makes your entire brand experience different. [30:35] Disney starts with a great story and then says, "What can we build around that story?" It might be content or an experience or merchandise, but it is secondary to that tale we love. [31:57] Know what you are about, why you exist, and how you are creating value in the world, then look for ways to incorporate that brain friendliness to make the best possible experience. [32:25] Asking great questions adds to that thoughtfulness and makes your entire brand experience different. [33:19] My first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You is officially on presale and available on Amazon, Bookshop, and Barnes & Noble order yours today and be one of the first to receive a copy when it officially launches May 11, 2021. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show. I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let's connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Preorder Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants (And Can't Tell You) on Amazon, Bookshop, and Barnes & Noble 🎉🎉🎉 Master Your Mindset Mini-Course Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution - use code BRAINY to save 10% Get the Books Mentioned on this Episode: Ripple: The big effects of small behaviour changes in business, by Jez Groom & April Vellacott Choice Hacking: How to use psychology and behavioral science to create an experience that sings, by Jennifer Clinehens Past Episodes and Other Important Links: You Better Behave! - Melina is the MC for this free 6-hour virtual masterclass - join us March 31! The Psychology Behind Disney's "10 Commandments" for Experience Design The Science Hiding in Mickey's Pixie Dust Disney Proves That Profitable Marketing Is About Brand Stories Be Like Disney: Why You Should Embrace Imagineering Principles in Branding 10 Examples of Great Disney Marketing Campaigns Disney-Themed Celebrity Portraits By Annie Leibovitz How Disney Built An Empire By Designing Brand Experience 5 Reasons Why Disney+ Is Breaking Records While Making History Disney Plus to Increase Prices in Early 2021, Eyes Up to 260M Subscribers by End of 2024 9 Reasons People Keep Going Back to Walt Disney World Why are so many adults obsessed with Disney theme parks? Throwback Thursday: What a Disney Princess Used To Be Magic Moments: What can the retail industry learn from Disney? What Companies Does Disney Own? Disney says it now has 94.9 million Disney+ subscribers Experience By Design Is there a secret city under Walt Disney World? Here's an upside-down Mickey at the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad in Frontierland Starbucks: A Behavioral Economics Analysis A Behavioral Economics Analysis of Costco Apple Card: A Behavioral Economics Analysis Peloton: A Behavioral Economics Analysis Interview with Jennifer Clinehens Why Our Brains Love Nostalgia & Traditions Herding Social Proof Framing Priming Peak-End Rule Loss Aversion Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals Habits Surprise and Delight Status Quo Bias IKEA Effect Questions or Answers Scarcity Reciprocity NUDGES & Choice Architecture The Overwhelmed Brain and Its Impact on Decision Making Check out (and preorder!) my upcoming book on Amazon, Bookshop, and Barnes & Noble If you are outside the US, please complete this form to be first to know when the book is available near you AND to help show there is a presence in your country to speed along international agreements and get it to you faster!

Full show notes at the publisher

143. The Hype Handbook, an Interview with Author Michael F. Schein Mar 12, 2021

Show notes

Do you think that hyping up yourself or your business is a good thing, or does it feel a little shady to you? Join me in this episode of The Brainy Business as I interview Michael F. Schein, author of the book The Hype Handbook: 12 Indispensable Success Secrets from the World's Greatest Propagandists, Self-Promoters, Cult Leaders, Mischief Makers, and Boundary Breakers, who, among many other topics, discusses his take on that and how he personally believes hype to be a good thing.

After Michael featured The Brainy Business in Psychology Today as the #1 psychology podcast that every businessperson should listen to, he was also kind enough to send me an advanced copy of The Hype Handbook, which is full of great stories across history and different disciplines. I read the book and loved it and couldn't wait to talk with him on this podcast about the 12 ways businesses can use hype to find their audiences and create a dedicated following.

In today's episode, Michael offers invaluable tips and advice such as positioning yourself against ideas with which you disagree, packaging and branding yourself effectively, being confident in your own unique way, embracing theater and drama, using facts and figures in a way that is not boring, and so much more. We also touch upon topics that have been discussed in past episodes of The Brainy Business, such as herding, biases, framing, and many others.

Time Stamps

[0:00] – Introduction to this episode's guest, Michael F. Schein.
[3:15] – Michael shares his background, explaining how he got into the business he's involved in now and why he wrote The Hype Handbook.
[5:51] – Melina praises The Hype Handbook, pointing out that she loves the connections that it makes throughout history.
[8:29] – Melina and Michael comment on the problem with trying to copy what others have done in that it's not going to be innovative when you do it.
[10:48] – Michael explains why he used the word hype in his book title and what the word means to him, giving hip hop music as an example of something that has had to use hype to succeed.
[13:18] – Melina mentions her favorite TED talk and talks about the importance of appreciating your first follower.
[14:02] – Michael offers abstract art as an example of something that was generally hated when it first came out but is now so popular it's almost mundane.
[15:48] – Michael discusses the first strategy from the book – make war, not love – emphasizing that it's the foundation on which the other 11 strategies are built.
[19:04] – Michael suggests positioning yourself against an idea that a lot of people seem to share in your industry, which you fundamentally disagree with (there are followers waiting for whomever is first to speak up).
[20:10] – Michael shares Basecamp as an example of how positioning yourself against ideas works and is powerful.
[22:56] – Melina points out that even though Basecamp is user friendly, some people do still prefer more complex systems.
[24:15] – Michael expounds upon another one of his strategies – packaging and branding.
[26:18] – We learn that we should focus on our weaknesses rather than our strengths and see if there is a way to turn the weaknesses into strengths.
[28:47] – Melina and Michael agree that confidence in things such as pricing is crucial.
[30:55] – Michael mentions his Psychology Today article in which he named The Brainy Business as the #1 psychology podcast businesspeople should listen to.
[33:44] – Michael provides his insight on survivorship bias and the importance of hyping yourself up.
[36:24] – Michael offers Tony Robbins as an example of someone who fits his strategy of embracing theater and drama.
[38:14] – Michael explains his strategy of making things scientific and using facts and figures in an interesting way.
[40:16] – Michael provides an example of branding yourself as an expert by using scientific lingo.
[42:58] – Michael comments on behavioral economics and how Melina has made use of it using his first strategy: make war, not love.
[45:01] – We learn about how Simon Sinek has used a simple slogan to sell his ideas.
[47:27] – Michael further discusses Sinek and his video about millennials.
[50:00] – We discover how we can connect with Michael online by joining HypeReads (and many more links in the list below)
[51:28] – Melina encourages everyone to reflect on whether or not Michael's take on hype has changed how you think of it.
[55:16] – Melina shares an interesting story about Michael's serendipitous timing in reaching out as she completed her new book, What Your Customer Wants (And Can't Tell You). Now on presale – will you help spread the word?

Let's connect:

More from The Brainy Business:

Master Your Mindset Mini-Course
BE Thoughtful Revolution - use code BRAINY to save 10%
Get Your FREE ebook
Melina's John Mayer Pandora Station! Listen to what she listens to while working.

Get the Books Mentioned on this Episode:

Connect with Michael:

Past Episodes and Other Important Links:

Check out (and preorder!) my upcoming book, What Your Customer Wants (And Can't Tell You) on Amazon, Bookshop, and Barnes & Noble

142. Status Quo Bias: Why Change Feels Terrifying, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Mar 05, 2021

Show notes

Today is all about status quo bias. This is perhaps one of the most foundational foundations there is. It truly is at the center of so many biases and heuristics the brain uses to make decisions, which is why you have heard me talk about it a lot on the show.

Most recently, I talked about this on episode 139 on the endowment effect, and that is because these two are commonly combined with loss aversion to come up with a "trifecta" that keeps us stuck. In today's episode, I'll go beyond explaining what status quo bias and why it is such a foundational foundation...and give you tips for how to be more effective personally, with colleagues, and the two ways to use it with customers (if you get it wrong it can mean a huge loss in conversions!)

Show Notes:

[00:41] Today we will be talking all about status quo bias which is perhaps one of the most foundational foundations there is.
[02:34] First: a reminder of how the brain works. All our brains have a conscious and subconscious processing working concurrently all the time.
[03:07] The subconscious is in charge 99% of the time.
[03:52] The average person makes 35,000 decisions every single day.
[04:52] The subconscious decides what is considered "normal" by using biases and heuristics (or rules of thumb). Things that have worked in the past that it believes apply to that specific situation by a millisecond choice.
[05:29] Your brain wants to have as much as possible processed by your subconscious because it is more efficient. It uses less energy. It is faster and it thinks it knows best. Because the subconscious is a creature of habit and predictability, it isn't surprising that it has a very strong bias for the status quo.
[06:27] The status quo can change based on whatever we've become accustomed to and that can change greatly over time.
[07:56] Now that the change is upon you, the stuff you know and are used to looks pretty darn good.
[08:25] This feeling that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't is inherent in choices we make every day to maintain that status quo.
[08:55] Melina shares an interesting article in Psychology Today which talks about a thought experiment from two different angles.
[11:49] What would you choose in each case?
[13:13] Wanting to keep things the same or feeling immense stress or fear about the idea of starting something new doesn't mean the old thing is better or that the new thing is worse or a bad decision. It just means that it is new, and you know that already! That is probably what drew you to the opportunity in the first place.
[13:59] If you were looking to do something new and have done the due diligence, embrace that feeling as a good sign and move forward with confidence. It will become a habit before you know it and be a new status quo you can't imagine living without.
[15:36] The pandemic was a massive, forced shift in circumstance caused (essentially) everyone on earth to have their status quo bias shaken up in a way that we had to try new stuff to find a new normal. Solutions that were once unfathomable are now easy.
[17:05] There are ways to work with the biases of the brain so they will be less impactful when presenting change. If you do that well, people will generally adjust to the new norm and establish a new bias toward that status quo.
[19:12] It is very important to consider the context of your relationship with the customer when determining how to present information for them and which way to use status quo bias.
[20:26] The way you frame your message is really critical and a subtle shift in the way you talk about the status quo can be a huge swing in retention rates.
[21:42] Don't include too many choices or too much extra stuff, because, as I already said, when people get overwhelmed they are more likely to go with the status quo.
[22:34] Recap: The first most important thing to remember is that status quo bias is a foundation for a reason. It is firmly rooted in the way our brains work and it will always be present.
[22:58] When you are looking or planning for a change, know that the feeling of fear as you get close to pulling the trigger on it doesn't mean you are on the wrong track.
[24:27] I'm the closing keynote for the Y conference from the Insights Association taking place virtually on March 9 and 10. The tickets are very affordable and free to their members and corporate researchers, so go check it out with the link in the show notes.
[24:45] It was also just announced that I will be the MC for the You Better Behave! Virtual masterclass taking place from 12:00-6:00 Eastern on March 31. This is also virtual and has keynotes from Nir Eyal and Tim and Kurt from Behavioral Grooves, as well as confirmed speakers from Bayer, Reebok, Nestle, and more.
[25:37] My first book, What Your Customer Wants (And Can't Tell You) is officially on presale and available on Amazon, Bookshop, and Barnes & Noble so you can buy today and be one of the first to receive a copy when it officially launches May 11, 2021.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Preorder Melina's new book, What Your Customer Wants (And Can't Tell You) on Amazon, Bookshop, and Barnes & Noble 🎉🎉🎉
Master Your Mindset Mini-Course
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution - use code BRAINY to save 10%

Get the Books Mentioned on this Episode:

Good Habits, Bad Habits by professor Wendy Wood

Past Episodes and Other Important Links:

The Y Conference - Melina is the closing keynote on March 10! Sign up today!
You Better Behave! - Melina is the MC for this free virtual masterclass - join us March 31!
Anomalies: The Endowment Effect, Loss Aversion, and Status Quo Bias
Status Quo Bias in Decision Making
What is Status Quo Bias in Sales and Marketing?
How Powerful Is Status Quo Bias?
Endowment Effect
Loss Aversion
Change Management
Framing
Habits: 95% Of Decisions Are Habitual
The Power of Habit
Interview with Wendy Wood

Check out (and preorder!) my upcoming book on Amazon, Bookshop, and Barnes & Noble

141. Where CX and Behavioral Science Meet, interview with Jennifer Clinehens, author of Choice Hacking Feb 26, 2021

Show notes

Today I am so excited to introduce you to Jennifer Clinehens. She is currently CX Strategy Director at Havas CX Helia, London, where she uses behavioral science and psychology to improve the customer experience for brands like Lloyds Banking Group and Compare the Market. Jennifer has helped mold experiences with behavioral science for brands like McDonald's, AT&T, O2, and Adidas across the globe.

She is also the author of four books including the one we will be discussing today, Choice Hacking: How to use psychology and behavioral science to create an experience that sings, AND she has two different podcasts, Choice Hacking and Everybody Hates Your Brand. Wow, talk about a busy and productive person, amirite?

[00:40] Today I am so excited to introduce you to Jennifer Clinehens. She is currently CX Strategy Director at Havas CX Helia, London.
[03:05] Jennifer shares her background and how she got involved in behavioral science. She has been lucky to work for many companies across many countries.
[04:35] A lot of the work she has been doing lately has been about the intersection between behavioral science and psychology. She takes those principles and applies them to experience design.
[06:48] One of the big things Jennifer does is framing touchpoints.
[09:39] Crossing over from one medium to another is a difficult point where we often lose some potential customers. There are a lot of steps that happen in the customer journey process.
[10:28] Generally, when you design a customer journey you use a customer journey map: a visual representation of what the customer journey is.
[10:45] On a map the customer journey is linear, but in real life it is messy. Yes, we have a beautiful picture of what the customer journey should be, but in the back of your mind, you have to be pragmatic.
[11:49] The closer we can get to design touchpoints and customer communications with a scientific approach or foundation to apply it to the real world the better it is.
[13:08] The number one thing brands seem to get wrong (or miss completely) is peak-end and applying it across the customer journey. The emotional journey is the secret sauce.
[14:17] A lot of brands get their ending wrong. They don't know where the real ending is.
[15:41] Brands, in general, don't realize that the last mile (the true ending) is so critical in so many ways.
[16:17] Jennifer shares an example of Disney realizing the customer journey didn't end when you left their park.
[17:19] Making the very end of your experience even better and more exciting means your memory of the time you spent in Disneyland is even better. It is how you are constructing the memory, it is not about every single moment you had. It is that emotional peak and true ending that matter.
[17:57] "A brand is a memory." Peter Steidl (from one of Melina's "go-to" brainy books, Neurobranding, linked below)
[20:33] There are a few different ways you can look for that true end in your business.
[21:44] Part of the issue of finding that true ending also has to do with silos.
[23:56] The brands that measure on a journey-level versus a touchpoint level have much more value at the end of the day.
[25:32] Melina shares how an online mattress company handles its customer journey.
[27:16] It is important to think through all the moments in the experience: where there could be problems and frustrations and turning it into a really great shareable moment/story. Then you have different associations with that brand.
[28:30] Going that little bit extra and saying "Is that really the end of the customer experience?" is so important.
[29:14] Jennifer shares some of her favorite concepts. Peak-end is her favorite, but the most overlooked is visual salience.
[31:27] Melina shares her experience when she toured the Human Behavior Lab at Texas A&M.
[33:46] Jennifer encourages brands to have someone who is responsible for making sure effectiveness and emotion are being delivered on in the journey level.
[36:20] When you know what you are looking for then you can see if you are on track and put in those nudges. If you don't know the end game, it is not as effective as it could be. The quality of the work is in the quality of the brief.
[38:06] Making choices easy is so much of what they do. Getting brands to understand where to get people ready to buy is the first step.
[39:15] The first thing they do is think: "Where are the points we need to be nudging to action?" and "Where are the points we need to be inspiring people?" They are usually not the same place.
[39:23] The book Choice Hacking is a good first start for people to think about a framework to apply this at the journey level.
[40:11] Melina's closing reflections.
[41:46] Grab Melina's brand new book, What Your Customer Wants (And Can't Tell You), which is now on presale!

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

More from The Brainy Business:

Master Your Mindset Mini-Course
BE Thoughtful Revolution - use code BRAINY to save 10%
Get Your FREE ebook
Melina's John Mayer Pandora Station! Listen to what she listens to while working.

Get the Books Mentioned on this Episode:

Connect with Jennifer:

Past Episodes and Other Important Links:

Texas A&M Certificate Program
Inside the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab
iMotions (The main software the Human Behavior Lab runs on.)
NUDGES & Choice Architecture
Framing
Priming
Interview with Will Leach
Peak-End Rule
Surprise and Delight
The Overwhelmed Brain and Its Impact on Decision Making
Interview with Roger Dooley
Time Discounting
Reciprocity

Check out (and preorder!) my upcoming book, What Your Customer Wants (And Can't Tell You) on Amazon, Bookshop, and Barnes & Noble

140. How Simple Nudges Can Save Hundreds of Millions, interview with Dectech's Dr. Benny Cheung Feb 19, 2021

Show notes

Today I get the honor of introducing you to Dr. Benny Cheung, a director of DecTech. You may remember that company's name as Dr. Henry Stott, a cofounder, joined me on the show in episode 130 to discuss some of their other work.

This conversation digs deeper on a specific project that Benny worked on to reduce opportunistic insurance fraud. You'll get to learn all about it during the episode and I promise it is fascinating to learn how some simple nudges can help reduce a problem of, essentially, little white lies that were costing the UK insurance industry a billion pounds each year.

We also get to learn a little about Benny and the research he did studying creatures that may seem very different from humans, but whose behavior we can still learn quite a bit from. He completed a Ph.D. and a two-year postdoctoral research fellowship in the field of behavioural science at the University of Cambridge before joining Dectech. During his academic career, he was involved in commercial projects in the clinical research and biotechnology industries. His areas of expertise include retail, eCommerce, financial services, utilities, telecommunication, and advertising.

Show Notes:

[00:40] Today I get the honor of introducing you to Dr. Benny Cheung, a director of Dectech.
[03:11] Benny shares his background and how he got involved in behavioral science. He started in behavioral genomics.
[03:44] Benny joined Dectech in 2005 to apply techniques and technology in behavioral science in a commercial backdrop supporting clients to understand their consumers better. Now the mission at DecTech is to provide the tools that will allow their clients to make more accurate and cost-effective predictions about their consumer's behavior.
[05:08] A lot of behavior we can trace back to genetics, so you inherit a lot of behavioral traits.
[05:35] Nowadays his focus is more on the commercial backdrop and consumer purchasing commercial decision making.
[06:32] Benny shares about a study he did with worms in 1999 about genetics and how intricately genetics is related to the behavioral outcome.
[07:55] In that study, feeding behavior came down to a single gene. While not all behaviors are that simple, genetics plays a very important role in behavior. Your environment also has a very important role to play.
[09:48] Benny shares about his opportunistic insurance fraud project. They focused on everyday consumers that were giving into temptations of being less than honest at a specific point during their customer life cycle.
[11:29] The project was for the Insurance Fraud Bureau in the UK.
[12:42] Opportunistic fraud is different from high-profile organized fraud because it is often undetected. That is a challenge for the industry.
[12:54] The IFB came to them and asked them to come up with a solution to fight this kind of opportunistic fraud.
[15:27] This type of fraud is typically not planned, instead it is something people choose to do at the moment.
[16:14] Nudges only work well in certain situations. You really can only nudge someone if they are sitting on the fence.
[18:47] Coming up with the intervention messages was the first task. The second task was to come up with a testing paradigm where they could test their effectiveness.
[20:41] The five principles they picked to focus their intervention methods were: norming(herding), consistency, priming, framing, and reciprocity.
[23:10] They prompted in a covert way as customers verified they were not a robot.
[26:04] When you have to focus on the words like in the captcha it has a different impact on the brain.
[26:24] For these interventions to be usable they can't leave a negative perception or imprint.
[27:11] They tested using a randomized controlled trial. Recreating the realism of applying for motor insurance online was a very important aspect.
[29:24] By comparing peoples' responses collectively to those contentious questions in the different conditions they could see how effective the interventions were in swaying dishonesty.
[30:13] On average the interventions were able to sway 36% of the dishonesty. An intervention in the norming category was proven most effective and had a 55% impact of dishonesty swaying.
[31:21] Of the 18 interventions they tested only one of them didn't really work. All of them have shown some positive impact in swaying dishonesty.
[33:47] In behavioral science it is paramount to test. The Holy Grail of testing is doing a real-life trial, but they can be costly and risky to do, and hard to scale.
[36:01] It is beneficial to get out of your way and test things when it is a safe space so you can see what amazing things can come out of it.
[38:53] None of the interventions left a negative impact on the outcome of perceptions.
[40:58] Melina's closing reflections.
[41:39] In the case of opportunistic fraud, it was important to know that this is often a decision made in the moment instead of premeditated or otherwise planned. This is why the nudges were effective: they appeared right at the moment where someone was teetering on the edge. Where does that exist in your business and what are some nudges you could implement to help encourage behavior for your customers or employees?
[42:52] Grab Melina's brand new book, What Your Customer Wants (And Can't Tell You), which is now on presale!

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

More from The Brainy Business:

Master Your Mindset Mini-Course
BE Thoughtful Revolution - use code BRAINY to save 10%
Get Your FREE ebook
Melina's John Mayer Pandora Station! Listen to what she listens to while working.

Connect with Benny:

Past Episodes and Other Important Links:

Check out (and preorder!) Melina's upcoming book, What Your Customer Wants (And Can't Tell You) on Amazon, Bookshop, and Barnes & Noble

139. Endowment Effect: Why We Like Our Stuff More, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Feb 12, 2021

Show notes

Today we will be digging in on the endowment effect. This concept is similar to a few you have heard on the show before, including loss aversion, the IKEA effect and even a little bit of reciprocity mixed in there. While they are similar, they are not the same.

The endowment effect is super impactful for all kinds of businesses. Everything from physical products to services, online versus brick and mortar shops; all can use the endowment effect to improve sales. And, yes, this even comes up when discussing change with members on your team (which I won't really get into today, see the Change Management episode link below for more on that). Listen to this episode and download your freebie worksheet to get tips for how you can use the endowment effect in your business.

[00:41] In this episode, you'll learn what the endowment effect is, how it works, and tips on how you can use it.
[02:15] EXCITING NEWS! This week, an article came out in Psychology Today called 21 Psychology Podcasts Every Businessperson Should Listen To. I'm so honored to say that The Brainy Business made the list!
[03:04] In its simplest form, the endowment effect teaches us that we value things more when we own them (or have perceived ownership over them). To put it another way, we like our stuff more than other peoples' stuff.
[03:21] It is incredibly easy to trigger the endowment effect. Even a slight change in words can make a huge impact.
[04:00] By saying, "You will notice when you go to check out the article…" I am triggering the endowment effect. Making it personalized by using the word "you" makes a difference, but also saying, "when you do this thing" is really powerful for triggering perceived ownership in the brain (versus "if" you do this thing).
[05:07] One very simple language shift that makes a huge difference when applying the endowment effect is the swap from "if" to "when."
[06:08] The endowment effect is very closely linked to loss aversion, but as I said at the top of the episode, they are not the same thing. It makes the possibility of loss more apparent or clear in your mind. It makes it so you are more aware of losing something.
[06:47] When you are given something or interact with it, your brain takes some ownership over it. It can become a part of your identity as the endowment effect takes place. You don't need to have physically purchased it or technically own it for this to happen.
[08:07] The first thing you are given will act like the anchor that you are more likely to take ownership over and we aren't the only animals impacted by the endowment effect. Do monkeys prefer peanut butter or juice? It depends!
[09:34] Being given the item first and told it was yours made it so it was worth more to you and you didn't want to get rid of it.
[09:57] If you keep giving people things, there is no potential loss of the items they have so the endowment effect doesn't have much of an outward impact. It is only when that trade is presented and they need to give something up that we really see it in action.
[10:24] Many businesses are set up so you earn things like credits. They may keep accruing and if you ever stop paying you will lose them all. That little twinge will keep you paying often for things you don't really use.
[13:36] Building the endowment effect into your programs can keep people motivated to stay. Ideally, you are also providing great value for them when they use it, but the endowment effect can help carry them through the valleys where they might be less active because they don't want to lose out on the progress they have made so far.
[14:06] Physical touch has a big impact on the endowment effect.
[14:40] Great high-quality pictures and videos can trigger mirror neurons of someone else engaging with the product, which can help your business get the benefit of the endowment effect.
[14:52] Another way to really trigger the endowment effect, both for product and service businesses, is to use the word "imagine" or "picture this." I also use really strong questions to help someone see the experience and live it a little bit.
[16:24] Getting someone excited about the prospect of owning something can actually help them to enjoy it more when they do own it, which is a good thing.
[17:39] Help the right people to find the best products and services for them and make it an irresistible offer. Using the endowment effect can help you do just that, andl help them truly love you, your business, and that item after they've bought.
[18:01] Say you hear often from potential customers that your they're concerned about the price of your offer. If you know this is a common concern, it can be valuable to trigger the endowment effect to help them to see that as an expense that is worth it to them before they even voice the concern.
[19:50] One of the main reasons a money-back guarantee works is because of the endowment effect. If I know I can try the thing out and get a refund down the line no questions asked, I'm more likely to try it (and less likely to return it because of the endowment effect).
[21:15] Melina summarizes her tips about the endowment effect - download your worksheet to practice them!
[23:32] I'm excited to announce that my first book, What Your Customer Wants (And Can't Tell You) is officially on presale and available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble (links below) so you can buy today! The book officially launches on May 11, but buying now guarantees you'll be one of the first to receive this book in print when it's released.
[24:25] And, if you are interested in being part of my launch team to help promote the book (and maybe get a sneak peek!) send an email to melina (at) thebrainybusiness (dot) com. There will be a limited number of these spots available, so act fast if you're interested.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

More from The Brainy Business:

Master Your Mindset Mini-Course
BE Thoughtful Revolution - use code BRAINY to save 10%
Get Your FREE ebook
Melina's John Mayer Pandora Station! Listen to what she listens to while working.

Past Episodes and Other Important Links:

Check out (and preorder!) my upcoming book on Amazon, Bookshop, and Barnes & Noble

138. Why Cute Sells and Other Marketing Magic, interview with Patrick Fagan, author of Hooked Feb 05, 2021

Show notes

Today I am so excited to introduce you to Patrick Fagan, author of the book Hooked: Why Cute Sells and Other Marketing Magic That We Just Can't Resist. He is also the Chief Scientific Officer at Capuchin Behavioural Science.

As you'll hear on the show today, Patrick has done all sorts of interesting research over the years, including a study for eBay and some for social media. He has such a great knowledge of the mind and how it applies to marketing and behavior. You can definitely say we are cut from the same cloth so I truly enjoyed chatting with him and I know you'll love this episode as well.

[00:41] Today I am so excited to introduce you to Patrick Fagan, author of the book Hooked: Why Cute Sells and Other Marketing Magic That We Just Can't Resist.
[03:16] Patrick shares how he developed his love for behavioral science and got into the field.
[04:55] Now Patrick is the Chief Scientific Officer at Capuchin Behavioural Science. They do behavioral science consulting and research.
[07:07] Patrick shares about the priming study he did for eBay. He looked at the effects of background noises on online shopping.
[07:54] He found that classical music makes people more likely to buy. He shares his findings on different types of music.
[10:32] Patrick shares about the papers he co-authored on Facebook psychology and facial expressions. His studies showed that Facebook can raise or lower your self-esteem depending on how you're using it.
[11:56] Technology is not completely a force for good. It is harming our attention spans and our abilities to think and be conscientious.
[13:39] Patrick shares more about their study on facial expressions. On average, they found that people tend to lean back if they are bored.
[14:42] He gets excited to work on projects where he can understand people, why people behave a certain way, and how behavior can be influenced. He loves doing segmentations.
[17:42] Generally speaking when working with millions of people you have to segment them into groups.
[19:33] Heretics are important for society; they are generally quite influential.
[20:03] Melina shares some of Wendy Wood's work with habits on running.
[22:35] Fitness seekers are influenced by commitment and consistency. Doing in the future what you have done in the past.
[24:10] Patrick shares about a study in Poland about traditionalism. He had a hunch there was a third group and this was completely validated with the data.
[26:01] He shares how you can send different messages based on the group of people. This approach helps you to be able to speak your customers' language better.
[28:20] You can be marketing exactly the same product and if you're talking to one audience you would use different imagery than if you were trying to appeal to another group.
[28:56] He wrote the book Hooked because he thought it would be good for the world. He also thought he saw a gap in the market for how to use psychology for messaging.
[29:33] His book shares how to make messages work by grabbing attention, how to engage people, and how to nudge behavior.
[29:53] There are three steps that a message needs to take. First, it needs to grab attention.
[31:46] The second part is that a message needs to engage people emotionally.
[33:17] If you present people with puzzles, riddles, or anything where they have to think about it they will be more likely to engage with it or remember.
[34:16] The third thing is how to nudge behavior. You have to motivate people.
[35:04] Passion or emotion is the steam in the engine which drives behavior. If you want people to act you have to fire them up and get that energy going to drive them to act.
[38:10] Grab your copy of Patrick's book Hooked (and all the other books mentioned on the show today) in the links below..
[40:17] Melina's closing reflections.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

More from The Brainy Business:

Master Your Mindset Mini-Course
BE Thoughtful Revolution - use code BRAINY to save 10%
Get Your FREE ebook
Melina's John Mayer Pandora Station! Listen to what she listens to while working.

Get the Books Mentioned on this Episode:

Connect with Patrick:

Past Episodes and Other Important Links:

Check out (and preorder!) my upcoming book on Amazon, Bookshop, and Barnes & Noble.

137. Using Ethnography to Understand Your Customers and Staff, an interview with Felicity Heathcote-Marcz Jan 29, 2021

Show notes

Today I am so excited to introduce you to Dr. Felicity Heathcote-Marcz. I know you'll learn a lot from this conversation with Felicity because…I did too! As you'll hear throughout the episode, I'm not worried about asking the "dumb" questions like "what does that mean" or "what's that term you just used?" I'm here for you dear listener! And, I figure if I haven't heard of something, there's a good chance there is at least one other person out there who would benefit from a definition as well. I hope you enjoy learning with me in today's fascinating discussion with Felicity.

You will get some ideas for tests and observational research you can do in your business to get an edge into the minds of your staff and customers. I hope you enjoy learning with me in today's discussion with Felicity.

[00:07] I'm excited to introduce you to Felicity Heathcote-Marcz an ethnographer at Atkins Global.
[02:54] Felicity shares about being the point of contact in her organization for ethnographic research. She leads many ethnographic projects all to do with the transport industry.
[03:57] She shares about some of the traditional ethnography projects she has led.
[05:44] Ethnography is a methodology that originates from anthropology. The method began by studying cultures and trying to understand them from the ground up.
[07:33] Now ethnography is at a place where the practice has matured and there are many networks for sharing knowledge and evolving.
[09:46] It is up to the organization's ethnographer to study the spaces and to understand the concerns and realities of different organizational stakeholders and then provide a narrative back to the organization.
[12:39] The Hawthorne Effect is when people know they are being observed and consequently they change their behavior (often without realizing it).
[14:56] In long term projects the Hawthorne Effect quickly melts away because it is not possible to keep up a pretend display of performance. You become part of the culture the longer you are there studying a group.
[15:31] One of the key challenges of ethnography in business is time. You always want as much time as you can have in the field.
[16:59] If you don't have a long period of time for a project, try to spend as much continuous time with the group as possible.
[18:38] She reassures the people she works with that her studies are completely anonymous and none of it will come back on them as an individual. It is really an opportunity to tell their story.
[20:14] Ethnography is more about understanding in generalities that you can only obtain on an individual level.
[21:10] Felicity shares about the behavioral science piece of some of the work she has done. Nudges have become very popular as a policy tool.
[23:35] Historically traveling in private vehicles was the most dangerous because of accidents but since COVID it has shifted completely.
[25:27] Three-quarters of respondents want to accept the nudge to walk, but didn't (based on the weather that day).
[26:15] Active travel nudges might be more effective in the summer when people are more likely thinking about walking anyway. In the winter months, nudges are not enough to move people out of their private cars.
[27:58] Melina shares about Colu and Littery and their use of nudges for social good.
[29:33] It is easy to incentivize people when they have the possibility to win something.
[31:45] It is interesting how some countries might need to set up schemes to incentivize adherence to things like mask wearing in the pandemic, and in other social contexts people do it as an automatic and penalize anyone that breaks that code.
[33:58] As ethnographers we have to take our ethnography seriously. It is not about us or what we think. It is about being present in a space for a long enough period of time to be able to understand the people you are researching.
[35:11] It is important that research is not done in a way that is biased or coming in with our own assumptions of why people are behaving a certain way.
[37:50] All ethnographic work is completely unique.
[39:07] Melina's closing reflections.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

More from The Brainy Business: