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Connecting with Allie has been an absolute blessing. You may know her better as @patchesofot and the host of the Patches of OT podcast. Her content is super unique and deeply personally engrained. This engrained passion is what initially drew me to her. We discuss all things trauma and her experience she had through researching it through her doctorate. If you don’t already, jump on and follow Allie on insta and also give her podcast a listen! Look after yourself, look after others and always keep Occupied Brock@brockcookOTbrock.cook@me.com If you want even more valuable content join <<Occupied Plus+ on Patreon>> for bonus podcast episodes, resources, mentorship and much much more! Transcript Brock Cook 0:01Hi, and welcome to a brand new episode. This episode, I sat down with the wonderful Allie Watkins, you may know her on Instagram as patches of OT, her Capstone for her doctorate program was around looking at essentially the the vicarious trauma caused in a forensic nursing setting in an emergency department. And so we delve into that, and what lessons may be learned for Occupational Therapists from that as well. I will preface this by saying that we do talk broadly about a variety of different traumas that we’re seeing through that emergency department. If that is something that triggers you, then please feel free to skip this one and hang out for the next episode. But it is a very valuable learning experience. And I thank Ollie a ton for coming on and having the conversation with me. So let’s roll the intro. Get a My name is Brock Cook, and welcome to occupied. In this podcast, we’re aiming to put the occupation in occupational therapy. We explore the people topics, theories and underpinnings that make this profession so incredible. If you’re new here, you can find all of our previous episodes and resources at occupied podcast.com. But for now, let’s roll the episode. Allie Watkins 1:33That’s a great question. I started out at my bachelor’s degree studying Science Technology and Society, which is a degree pretty much for the unknown. And I was going to be a it is very, very broad. And so my goal and undergrad was to become a pediatric oncologist, a doctor. But I went through a lot of life events that made me reconsider. One was in high school. I helped a victim drown, and it was a friend of mine. And I thought it was a sign of that I need to get into the health field. And I developed PTSD. from that situation, I didn’t know that I developed PTSD. And so I went years having these symptoms and thinking that there was something wrong with me. And I was like, How can I be a medical doctor if I am triggered by saving someone’s life. And so I started reconsidering, you know, what I’m going to do for my career. And my aunt currently at the time was working at an OT program, and she’s like, you should do occupational therapy. And he said, I have no idea what that is. I am not interested. Brock Cook 2:56No, not like PT, Allie Watkins 2:57like I was the no one knows. And she said, You know, they work with kids, they work with adults. They even can work with cancer patients. And I was so interested in that. And I was like, Huh, so I started researching it my senior year of college. And, you know, I was like, wow, this is sounds exactly what I wanted to do. You can, you know, then I was considering at the time PT versus OT, and I really liked how ot looked at the mind. And, you know, mental health part of it. And so, you know, having PTSD and depression and anxiety, and going through all that I was like, oh T is more my route. And I can probably help people more with those mental health issues than their physical bodies in general. And so I applied for ot school, I had to take one year break to take like anatomy courses that I never took at my undergrad school because it was pa and pharmacy driven where I went to school and so I had never had the opportunity to take the anatomy courses. And so that’s where my ot journey kind of begins. Brock Cook 4:09So what was the Why would you find it? I’ve not heard of someone so young having such an interesting cancer was their experience that sort of drove you to that? Allie Watkins 4:27Yes, when I was really young, I have a younger brother and we went to daycare. And our friend My brother’s best friend developed leukemia. And that was the first time we’ve heard what they call the C word which is cancer. And, you know, we would go to his house and play with him and he would get sick and then we would go to the Children’s Hospital here in Indianapolis called Riley’s and we would make treats for all the families who were in the oncology department. And so, the weekend before he passed, we went and visited him. And I went to the room next to him what was a cancer patient and his sister, the, the child’s sister asked me if you want to play a board game, and I said, Okay, why not. And she looked really sad when I entered the room. And then once we started playing, I think it was Candyland. a board game. She was so happy, it changed her whole outlook of the day, just to have three little girls all in one room in her hospital bed playing a board game. And from there, I said, I want to make kids happy when they’re going through such a toll of cancer. And so that moment on I knew that that’s kind of what I wanted to do. Brock Cook 5:56That’s beautiful. Allie Watkins 5:59Thank you. Brock Cook 6:02This Yeah, thinking about it. I’m sorry. Yeah. Allie Watkins 6:07I said, Just thinking about it right now. I’m like, wow, I forgot about that, like story. You know, I don’t get to talk about it that often. But it’s like, oh, you know, it does, like, bring, it’s emotional. But definitely wasn’t one of the one of the most rewarding things in my life at a young age, especially to learn and develop empathy as a child. Brock Cook 6:31Yeah. And that’s, that’s a, that’s a pretty heavy experience for for any kid to sort of go through. That’s why I was, it’s, I’ve not heard of anyone straight out of the gate going, like, I want to work in oncology. I’m like, that spot didn’t even know what oncology meant when I was a kid. So I would assume there was some history there. But it sounds like it was a fairly pivotal moment in your development, if even if it wasn’t to do with your career, but Allie Watkins 7:03Oh, definitely, I would, you know, everybody asked when you’re growing up, what do you want be when you would be an IV, like pediatric oncologist and be like, what? Brock Cook 7:13fireman or Superman and you want a pediatric? Yeah. Allie Watkins 7:21And, you know, I’m, I’m very lucky that with OT, you can work with patients, it’s, it’s hard to get into, I will say, and, but you can work with people that have an oncology department, and I hope one day that I could do that. Brock Cook 7:37So that’s still the goal is to work in that field. Allie Watkins 7:44I think so, um, you know, now that I’ve been on rotations there, like I worked a lot in outpatient pedes. And so you see, I’ve worked with a couple kids that have survived cancer. And, you know, I still am very rewarded with that I feel when you are so compassionate or passionate about population, and then you get to work with them. And then your kind of cup is filled, and you’re not as burnt out. And so, I’m working with them. I’m like, okay, like this, I also had a placement in Hippotherapy, and I loved it, there was so magical to see the kids get on the horses, and with all different diagnosis, and they felt like they were included for the first time that they could do something that other people could do. That was hard and challenging. And so I think that is also something I could see myself doing. Brock Cook 8:40I’m sure there’s probably even areas we can bind to. I’d be surprised there wasn’t given the just how those caper theory how hypnotherapy works, etc. Allie Watkins 8:57Oh, sure, I was going to do my capstone on service animals and cancer. There’s a big research on how kids with cancer develop a high a score due to medical trauma that they are going through in all the mental health issues that they will continue to have if they survived cancer, because if you develop cancer at a young age, you’re always going to have that fear once they’re going to come back. Yep. And so being, you know, an OT, to help kind of work through that trauma. And usually when people are impacted at such a young age with trauma, they are they like lack social skills, they lack the ability to just have those developmental milestones meet. And so I think it would be super, super interesting to have an OT who specializes in animal assisted therapy and then oncology to help with that gap. Brock Cook 9:58So with the Just thinking about all what you just said then about how kids who develop cancer, when they, when they, when they’re kids, obviously, when they’re younger, tend to have this sort of constant fear about when it’s coming back. Was there any sort of, I guess, similar fear but vicariously for you going through the experience you had with your brother’s friend? Did you sort of develop this, like all it could happen to me kind of, I guess fear at a young age. Oh, Allie Watkins 10:31oh, totally. I like I constantly I actually have found cancer on my body. And so I’m a freckly girl. And so I have to get like my moles and freckles checked. And so I actually a couple years ago, they found cancer. It was like the first level. And so I was very lucky that they were able to remove it. But every time going, like, being involved in such a heavy case, at a young age, and seeing how the family grieved and dealt with their child having cancer, I always was concerned that, you know, I was going to get cancer or, you know, I guess I was traumatized by, you know, if I would ever get it myself or my brother. But then, you know, I still have the fear of like, Okay, I need to get my moles checked. It’s been about a year, and I’ve already had, you know, one incident. So I definitely, and I have severe stomach issues. And so my family has a history of stomach cancer and IBS. And so I. So I yeah, I guess I’ve never even thought about that, I guess I am a warrior that I will, you know, one day also get cancer. Brock Cook 11:48Because I get so many great questions. What I do. Now, I guess, like what what we’re planning to talk about, I’m kind of, I’m always curious about if there’s any sort of, or what the roots of those kinds of ideas are. And we want to have a look at your your Capstone, which is around sort of, essentially vicarious trauma of people in in emergency departments. Obviously, we can sort of have a look and see where you’re interested in oncology sort of stems from, but I also wondered whether there was some kind of root of interest in sort of vicarious trauma. And it sounds like that possibly might be a couple of instances where that may have stemmed from, Allie Watkins 12:41oh, yes, I have a very high a score. And if you’re not familiar with a scores, I’m sure you are, it’s adverse childhood experiences. And so if you have a higher a score for you are more likely to develop cancer, you know, chronic illnesses as you get older, or just unable to emotionally regulate. And so, I, Alli cannot emotionally regulate that well, when I come in tact with stimuli that I think is defensive. Or that, you know, my fight or flight system goes into action, which it happens frequently, due to my high a score in the past. And so I have to constantly be working on Take a deep breath in and out before I react to a situation because sometimes I react and it’s kind of overreacting. And so I have to really work on my social awareness and emotional regulation. And, you know, that’s taken a lot of time. But that’s just how my brain was wired as a child, and you know, it was going to my flight or fight system, my central nervous system, rather than my prefrontal cortex as a child. And so I’m still working on it. Brock Cook 13:54Did you do is this all stuff that you’ve like, taught yourself, or did you see any other profession during your childhood or more recently to help develop those sort of regulation skills? Allie Watkins 14:14Oh, yeah, um, I, you know, I feel like trauma, if you have a high a score, it usually, I don’t know, I feel like trauma follows you everywhere it goes, or you’re more sensitive to the world, or maybe you have a low resilience score. And, you know, I feel like I’m building I’m constantly rebuilding my resilience, because I started off very low. And so, around college, I didn’t really have a social support system, meaning like my family, we did not have a close relationship at all. I just felt really alone in the world. And so I started listening to Renee Brown, and on her research on connection, empathy and vulnerability, and I will tell you, her work was Life Changing, I would listen and re listen to her TED Talks into her audio books, I even ran a marathon. Just listening to all her work, and I would start to practice those things. And now I’m starting to listen to her podcast and every person that she has on there, I’m like buying their books and doing all the self help situations. But when it comes to neuro, I’ve definitely felt like I taught myself with like, the neural pathways and why I am the way I am. And with my capstone, now, I, you know, wanted to learn about trauma informed care. So honestly, I could about myself and how I deal with things. And so yeah, I guess that’s kind of why I went that way. Now that I think about it, Brock Cook 15:53thinking it’s good. That’s what we’re all about here. Looking is great. So let’s dive into it. So what what, what is your Capstone about? Allie Watkins 16:09So, I originally was supposed to do a capstone on pediatric oncology, working with kids and service dogs in working on social participation, that did not happen due to COVID. Um, this participation piece kind of knocked that out. So I had to kind of dig around last minute in order to graduate on time. And so I was between racial injustice, since that is a huge problem, especially here in America. And I was going to maybe go to a police academies and talk to the police officers about implicit bias, how to work with kids or adults that have sensory issues, or that may have autism. Then I was going to do a more love on the spectrum kind of thing on that. It’s a series on Netflix, on like, bits with disability dating. That was already taken, though, and I was like, dang it, I want to be original, and then go to the place of I’m like, oh, OTS really do a lot of work in human trafficking, or that’s a new spike that’s coming up, I guess you could say trend. And so I was really interested in that. So I looked at the hospitals around me. And I saw that there was a hospital that had an organization that helped victims or patients who, with domestic violence, sexual abuse, or if they their child was going through something, and they suspect something, and so they are called forensic nurses. Now, ooh, I could do something that, you know, could help me learn more about this population, and bring something to them. So I talked to the site mentor, and she says we are burnt out with the COVID pandemic, and the rise in quarantine, domestic violence cases, because people are stuck at home. We are experiencing tremendous turnover. We’re mentally fatigue, we’re seeing somewhat reading these cases, multiple cases over and over again, we’re seeing deaths, adults and kids, and we need help. And so it’s like, well, let me try. So I am currently creating a educational series on burnout, vicarious trauma and occupational balance to help with burnout in the with the forensic nurses in the emergency room. Brock Cook 18:44Your interest areas, just shock me this. So out there. So while a little bit human trafficking, where did you get that interest area? Allie Watkins 18:59I know. Um, so I think it kind of all stems back from, you know, I created patches of ot because a…
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