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    Religion & Spirituality

    Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

    Welcome to our podcast!

    My name is Richard H. Ostler and I am a native of Salt Lake City, small business owner, married father of six with several grandchildren. I believe in and am deeply committed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and want it to work for a wider group.
    I am the author of three books:

    “Listen Learn and Love: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints” published in 2020 available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462135773)

    “Listen Learn and Love: Improving Latter-day Saint Culture” published in 2022. The book explores who we can do better to help all Latter-day Saints feel more welcome, needed and a feeling of belonging in our congregations. Available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462139566)

    “Listen Learn and Love: Building the Good Ship Zion” released in Sept 2023. The book explores additional topics to help all Latter-day Saint feel welcome and needed on the Good Ship Zion. Available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462145280)

    The purpose of all three books is to help us better create Zion by helping more feel welcome, a sense of belonging, and needed in our congregations.

    Proceed from the books go the Stockton Power Memorial Scholarship (www.standingforstockton.com) in honor of Stockton Powers a gay Latter-day Saint teenager who died of suicide in 2016. Everything I do is a self-funded labor of love ❤️

    I am the author of two Ensign articles:

    ‘How the Savior’s Healing Power Applies to Repenting from Sexual Sin’ (August 2020/YSA Digital Only) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/08/young-adults/how-the-saviors-healing-power-applies-to-repenting-from-sexual-sin

    ‘7 Tips for Overcoming Pornography Use’ (October, page 72) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/10/young-adults/7-tips-for-overcoming-pornography-use.

    This podcast is designed to discuss some more complicated issues in our church to help all of us better “listen, learn and love” so we can minister in a more effective way to all of our Heavenly Parents’ children.

    Podcasts are indexed by category at listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

    Thank you for joining us. You can’t donate to this podcast. There are no sponsors. But you can leave a review/rate the podcast on the platform you are listening and/or leave a review at Deseret Book/Amazon on my books.

    With love, Richard ‘Papa’ Ostler ❤

    Twitter: twitter.com/Papa_Ostler
    IG: www.instagram.com/papa_ostler
    Facebook: facebook.com/richard.ostler.5
    Substack: https://substack.com/@papaostler
    E-mail: richard@ostlergroup.com

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    Copyright: © All rights reserved

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    Latest Episodes:
    Episode 696: Chris Rich, Active LDS, Find Peace and Hope After Family Left the Church Sep 15, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Chris Rich (married mother of three, husband and all three children stepped away from the Church, grew up in SLC, lives in Western Massachusetts, professional life coach) joins us to share her story. Chris talks learning to process the emotions (worried, angry, disappointment, resentment, and grief) of having family members leave the church and learning how to get through those emotions to find peace. Chris talks about the constant thought of “this isn’t what I signed up for” but learning to get past that perspective into a more healthy and sustainable mindset. Chris talks about her efforts to get her husband back to church—but then deciding “my job is to love, Jesus job is to save”. She talks about moving beyond “the only way to be happy is if my husband comes back to church.” Chris also talks about “clean pain” and “dirty pain” and how dirty pain can result in getting stuck (like a hamster wheel) and how to move beyond that pain. Chris talks about loving and supporting her family now. Seeing the good in their lives and contributions to society. Chris talks about how “fear is a hard emotion to parent from” and her end goal now with her family is “connection”. This is one of the best podcasts we’ve done to find peace, hope, and love when family members leave the church. I was so moved listening to Chris’s insights—including gospel insights, scriptures, talks and the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Thank you, Chris, for being on the podcast. I hope your episode is shared far and wide. Your work is so needed in our community. Thank you for being on our podcast—you are awesome! Links: a) Chris Rich’s coaching site: https://www.chrisrichcoaching.com/ b) Chris’s podcast (The Mixed Faith Relationship Podcast): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mixed-faith-relationship-podcast/id1627333149 c) Elder Uchtdorf talk: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2011/11/general-relief-society-meeting/forget-me-not?lang=eng d) Richard Ostler Books: papaostler.com e) Index of Podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

    Episode 695: Matt and Heather Robertson, Navigating Marriage Through Changes in Faith Sep 13, 2023
    Show notes

    My dear friends Matt and Heather Robertson (married 30 years, three children) join us to share their story of family unity, love, and respect for all family members in the various Church paths they are walking. Matt and Heather talk about Matt’s long journey which eventually led to Matt no longer participating in the Church and then resigning in October 2022. Matt and Heather (who still attends and holds a calling) talk about how they learned to talk about difficult subjects, listen, hold space for different perspectives/conclusions/experiences, and be united in their love for each other and their children. It is a beautiful love story based on principles of love, respect, communication, and grace. Heather talks about how her dreams/hopes for her family changed as her husband and all three children (two of which are LGBTQ) have stepped away from the church—and how she finds peace and hope. They talk about “let heaven take care of heaven, we will have no empty chairs now”. Matt talks about a wonderful local Bishop—who was curious, listened, and validated his feelings. It is a wonderful ministering insight into preserving the relationship—even if a ward member steps away or resigns. Matt is clear he is not inviting others to take his path—just sharing his story. Part of that story is a desire expressed in his resignation letter to his Bishop to stay involved with the ward community and help as needed. Matt feels that support as he is often asked to help (such as substituting playing the piano in primary). This one of the most powerful podcasts about how a mixed-faith marriage can and does work—and how Matt and Heather have learned new skills to make their marriage even stronger. If you are in a family where some are not participating in the Church and want to preserve the family relationship and have “no empty chairs” this podcast will help you. But it takes work on both those staying in the church and those stepping away. Thank you, Matt and Heather. I was so moved hearing you share your story. Your story will help so many. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Books: papaostler.com Index of Podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

    Episode 694: Richard Ostler New Book: “Listen, Learn and Love: Building the Good Ship Zion” Sep 10, 2023
    Show notes

    This episode is the launch of my new book called “Listen, Learn and Love: Building the Good Ship Zion”. The “Good Ship Zion” represents The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and all the good it can bring into our lives. But not everyone feels welcome and secure in the boat. Instead of putting the responsibility on others to get comfortable—or to figuratively stop rocking the boat—we can all work in our circles of influence to improve the Good Ship Zion for everyone, as we journey together to the safe harbor of God’s presence. Chapters: Loving members who are “foyer sitters” Is it okay to turn down a calling? Ministering to those with church-generated pain or trauma How should we treat those who leave the Church? Supporting members dealing with death Better support for single Latter-day Saints Supporting couples in their decisions about children. Much of the content of the book are Latter-day Saints sharing these perspectives. They are some of my heroes. I encourage everyone to read the book and share it with others. And please leave a review on Amazon and Deseret Book (there in a month or two). All my love, Richard Book Link: amazon.com/dp/1462145280 Introduction: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3dxpofy8u5e9jw9c446d/Introduction.pdf?rlkey=ksmzm0wcytnafl2hqln6fotvu&dl=0 Stockton Powers Memorial Scholarship: standingforstockton.com/

    Episode 693: Adam Maughan, Gay, Age 31, PhD Student Sep 07, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Adam Maughan (from Avon Utah, Indy RM, not active in the Church, conversion therapy survivor) joins us to bravely share his story. Adam starts with realizing he was attracted to men prior to his mission but believed exercising his faith through increased religious behaviors would make him straight and acceptable to God. However once on his mission, it became apparent to Adam that his feelings for men had not gone away. He felt that God was displeased with him, and that his sexuality was to blame for difficulties he and his companions faced in their work. That false conclusion (along with the reality of being gay) led Adam to a dark spot resulting in coming home from his mission to a loving and supportive family. Adam talks about how his road got darker after difficult church experiences, conversion therapy, and missing the community/safety of Church. That led Adam to suicidal ideation/plans resulting in an inpatient stay at UNI at the University of Utah. This experience became a turning point as the Maughan family met at the hospital and talked about Adam’s future, including their support if he dated men/stepped away from the Church. Their constant love and support gave Adam hope for his future and helped him move out of his mental health crisis. Adam talks about stepping away from the Church (super painful to leave a community he felt so much connection to) and keeping God in his life. Adam talks about making his way to the University of Tennessee where he is pursuing a PhD in Counseling Psychology. As part of his dissertation, Adam is doing research on Latter-day Saint Allies who live in Utah (see show notes for the link). I was so moved listening to Adam as he navigated being gay and wanting so badly to belong and serve in our church. I was also moved how Adam found hope and healing in his life—a story that helps others in a dark place. And so much respect for Adam for working towards a PhD because of his goal to bring hope and healing to others—and to reduce divisiveness. You are a good man, Adam. A warrior. A survivor. This world is a better place with you here. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: a. Learn more or sign up to participate in Adam’s Dissertation Study at: https://tiny.utk.edu/LDSAllies b. FHE Facebook Group link: https://instagram.com/fheforall_cachevalley?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== c. Previous study by Dr. Lesli Allen on LDS Parents of LGBTQ+ Youth: https://www-proquest-com.utk.idm.oclc.org/docview/2596920889?pq-origsite=gscholar&fromopenview=true d. Adam’s email: amaughan@vols.utk.edu

    Episode 692: Brian Pedersen, Gay Former Latter-day Saint, Atheist Turned Christian Sep 05, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Brian Pedersen (age 34, University of Utah English Graduate, Lives in Utah) shares his unique journey. Brian starts with growing up in Sandy, Utah, realizing he was gay at around 11, living his life as an anti-Mormon, but then opening the door to a different path. I'm 2020, at the beginning of the pandemic, Brian started to read Christian/Religious authors in an honest attempt to make sense of the world and find more peace and hope in his life. That door of extensive reading, listening, and meditation led Brian to a deep belief in God and Jesus and their character and teachings to bring us together as the same human family. Brian shares some of his thoughtful personal writings titled “what is the contemplative mind”. I was deeply moved hearing Brian’s journey of self-awareness, humility, and thoughtfulness to open new doors. I was also deeply moved hearing Brian’s broad and expansive view of a loving, kind, forgiving, and welcoming God. This podcast is unique and less of the story about Brian’s journey to navigate his sexual orientation—but more about Brian’s personal journey of understanding and connecting with God. If you are no longer connected with God and/or Jesus and are thinking about re-opening that door, Brian story may help you. And if you are looking for additional insights into God’s love for you and all of humanity, Brian’s words may help you. You are a good man, Brian. Thank you for being on the podcast and sharing your story. You help us come together as the same human family. Brian can be reached at: tober04@gmail.com

    Episode 691: Zach Tucker, Gay Latter-day Saint, Dear Family Friend Sep 03, 2023
    Show notes

    Our family friend Zach Tucker (age 26, Russia RM, University of Utah Finance Grad, Current MBA Student at University of Minnesota) joins us to share his story. Zach (who is no longer active in the Church and plans to marry a man) shares his journey to accept his sexual orientation (mostly after his mission) and eventually come out to family and friends (lots of love and support). Zach talks in-depth about coming out to others (a close *girlfriend*) and then his family (via a group video) which led to a dinner around his mother Pam’s table. Zach talks about the love, good questions, and family support he received that night (which continues today). Zach talks about supporting his active LDS mother Pam as she finds joy in the Church and the family's love and support as Zach moves forward in the path he feels is best for him. Zach talks about his family’s unity and love—even with differences. It is a beautiful family love story that follows the principle taught by Elder Quentin Cook in his October 2020 General Conference Talk: “Unity and diversity are not opposites. We can achieve greater unity as we foster an atmosphere of inclusion and respect for diversity.” Zach then talks about the group he was the most nervous to come out to—his “sports-loving, jock, republican, straight” friends that he considers as brothers —his boys that he grew up with—boys that he hopes being gay doesn’t change their friendship and brotherhood. Zach talks about the positive experience coming out to his bros and their love, support, humor, and interest in Zach. I was happy to hear these specific examples and wish I could go back in time and say the same for a couple of my high school classmates who came out as gay. Zach talks about being “guided by love” for others in everything he is doing and invites others to do the same. I was so moved listening to Zach and honored to have him on the podcast. You are a good man Zach—loved by so many—and someone who has blessed many lives. Your story will help so many. You have a great life ahead of you. Links: Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Book: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: Deseret Book: deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints?variant_id=189035-paperback Amazon: amazon.com/dp/1462135773 Index of Podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

    Episode 689: Christi Davis, LDS Author, Mixed-Faith Families Aug 30, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Christi Davis (married mother of seven, certified life coach, author, podcaster, lives in Gilbert Arizona) join us to talk about her new book called “The Power of a Faithful Mother: Parenting in the Latter Days with a Faith-Filled Mindset. Christi shares some of her own story including her husband Jeff stepping away from the Church and how they worked to maintain a strong and healthy marriage (Jeff has since returned to the Church). So many wonderful principles and insights to maintain a strong marriage with different beliefs. Christi also talks about having children who are no longer participating in the church and the advice she gives her clients to help ease their pain, find peace today and hope for tomorrow, not feel like a failure, and not compare outcomes to other Latter-day Saint families. I wrote down so many unique and helpful insights from Christi and she brings her own story, clinical training, and gospel insights to help others. I encourage everyone to listen to this podcast and check out Christi’s work. I was deeply moved by Christi—her words will help you find more peace now and more hope for the future. Thank you, Christi, for being on the podcast and your personal ministry to help others. Links: Christi’s book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0C9KM8TMY Christi’s website and podcast: christidaviscoaching.com Christi's Instagram: @christidaviscoaching Facebook support group for LDS parents with children no longer participating: www.facebook.com/groups/1139458306236720

    Episode 688: Dan Neumann, Gay, in a Mixed-Orientation Marriage, Father of 2 Beautiful Girls Aug 28, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Dan Neumann (Pediatrician, age 36, married father of 2, RM, lives in Roy Utah, no longer active in the church) joins us to share his powerful story. Dan talks about growing up in Elgin, IL, being very active in the Church, and knowing he was attracted to boys — but always expecting it would go away. Dan talks about silently suffering during these years with depression and suicidal ideation, while trying to compensate by being an overachiever. Dan talks about how, because of his same sex attractions, his relationship with God struggled greatly. He felt that God is “not pleased with me”, that he “never could measure up”, that “God is mad at me”, and that he “never felt acceptable to God." Dan asks, “if I hate who I am, how can God love who I am?” These are sobering insights into how the things we say about queer people deeply affect how they feel about themselves as well as how they believe God must feel about them. Dan talks about the work he is doing to take away shame, to be honest and authentic, and to move forward in his life. Dan also talks about being open about his sexual orientation while dating women, including with his wife, Anna, as they were dating. Dan talks about being very active in the Church during med school and residency in Chicago and in the first few years in his pediatric practice in Utah, but eventually deciding (about 2 years ago) to no longer be active. He was open and transparent with his Bishop who reacted positively and has a very good relationship and ongoing communication with Dan. Dan talks about supporting his wife and kids in being active in the Church, and he also accepted a calling as a ward choir pianist. If you are feelings shame about your sexual orientation or gender identity, please listen to Dan’s story. It will help you. And if you are looking to better support queer Latter-day Saints, Dan’s story will open your heart to how we can do better. No one should feel shame for who they are. We need to learn to proactively say kind things about queer Latter-day Saints. You are a good man Dan. Respect for concurrently navigating your sexual orientation, getting through medical school/becoming a pediatrician, and starting a family. You are one of my new heroes. Thanks for all you do to make this world a better place. Links: Dan’s e-mail: dneumann87@gmail.com Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Book: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: Deseret Book: deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints?variant_id=189035-paperback Amazon: amazon.com/dp/1462135773 Index of Podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

    Episode 687: Braden Duncan, Gay Latter-day Saint Aug 26, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Braden Duncan (married father of 4, Active LDS, Therapist, Lives in Arkansas, age 40) joins us the share his remarkable story. Braden talks about growing up in Midway Utah and coming out to his Bishop (good experience and the good advice he received). Braden then talks about the “wise counsel” he wishes he been given before entering into his mixed-orientation marriage to his wife Jessi. He talks about how not talking about it before they married took away Jessi’s right to make a more informed decision. Braden and Jessi are now working hard to increase the strength and health of their marriage. Braden talks about his OCD and how this was more of a coping mechanism to have control while not addressing to the core which was his sexuality. In one of the most moving segments of any podcast, Braden shares what he has learned about the character of God and Jesus and their “passionate love”, “complete trust, and “underserved forgiveness”. The God that Braden describes is the God that I believe in—the God that loves us and wants us to feel hope, peace, and their grace. This isn’t theoretical for Braden—but personal from the hard work done to know and worship this God. Bradon also talks about the loss of their son Ben to leukemia and how he is learning to “hold onto your faith in a new way” and what we can do to better support families dealing with death. This is a powerful podcast that will help all Latter-day Saints. Thank you Bradon for your courage to share your story. You are brave. You are a good man! Links: Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Book: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: Deseret Book: deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints?variant_id=189035-paperback Amazon: amazon.com/dp/1462135773 Index of Podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

    Episode 686: Richard Ostler Advice for LGBTQ Allies Aug 23, 2023
    Show notes

    In this episode, I do a solo podcast for Latter-day Saints who want to better support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints in their area of influence. Links: Stockton Powers Memorial Scholarship: www.standingforstockton.com/ Elder Rasband Quote: www.thechurchnews.com/2021/9/1/23218781/elder-rasband-finding-answers-to-questions-california-institute-devotional Link to Books: listenlearnandlove.org/books Steve Young Book: www.amazon.com/dp/1639930310 Facebook Group Ministering Resources to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Chapter on Pride (Chapter 5, False Statement 9): listenlearnandlove.org/embracing-lgbtq-latterday-saints

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