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    Religion & Spirituality

    Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

    Welcome to our podcast!

    My name is Richard H. Ostler and I am a native of Salt Lake City, small business owner, married father of six with several grandchildren. I believe in and am deeply committed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and want it to work for a wider group.
    I am the author of three books:

    “Listen Learn and Love: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints” published in 2020 available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462135773)

    “Listen Learn and Love: Improving Latter-day Saint Culture” published in 2022. The book explores who we can do better to help all Latter-day Saints feel more welcome, needed and a feeling of belonging in our congregations. Available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462139566)

    “Listen Learn and Love: Building the Good Ship Zion” released in Sept 2023. The book explores additional topics to help all Latter-day Saint feel welcome and needed on the Good Ship Zion. Available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462145280)

    The purpose of all three books is to help us better create Zion by helping more feel welcome, a sense of belonging, and needed in our congregations.

    Proceed from the books go the Stockton Power Memorial Scholarship (www.standingforstockton.com) in honor of Stockton Powers a gay Latter-day Saint teenager who died of suicide in 2016. Everything I do is a self-funded labor of love ❤️

    I am the author of two Ensign articles:

    ‘How the Savior’s Healing Power Applies to Repenting from Sexual Sin’ (August 2020/YSA Digital Only) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/08/young-adults/how-the-saviors-healing-power-applies-to-repenting-from-sexual-sin

    ‘7 Tips for Overcoming Pornography Use’ (October, page 72) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/10/young-adults/7-tips-for-overcoming-pornography-use.

    This podcast is designed to discuss some more complicated issues in our church to help all of us better “listen, learn and love” so we can minister in a more effective way to all of our Heavenly Parents’ children.

    Podcasts are indexed by category at listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

    Thank you for joining us. You can’t donate to this podcast. There are no sponsors. But you can leave a review/rate the podcast on the platform you are listening and/or leave a review at Deseret Book/Amazon on my books.

    With love, Richard ‘Papa’ Ostler ❤

    Twitter: twitter.com/Papa_Ostler
    IG: www.instagram.com/papa_ostler
    Facebook: facebook.com/richard.ostler.5
    Substack: https://substack.com/@papaostler
    E-mail: richard@ostlergroup.com

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    Copyright: © All rights reserved

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    Latest Episodes:
    Episode 726: Liz and Ryan Giles, Two Gay Women, Same-Sex Marriage, Attending Church Dec 24, 2023
    Show notes

    My friends Liz Giles (from Yakima Washington, RM, BYU Grad) and Ryan Giles (from South Jordan Utah, RM, BYU Grad) join us to share their story. Liz and Ryan start with becoming friends at BYU, accidentally falling in love, and then* figuring out their sexualities. Ryan states, “You don’t fall in love with a girl unless you are wired for girls.” Liz talks about her decision to serve a mission and coming to terms with her sexuality during that time. Both Ryan and Liz served faithful and honorable missions. After Liz returned from her mission, Ryan and Liz share how they navigated their close friendship while at BYU, decide to begin dating a year later, and get married in 2021. They talk about the options they explored as queer Latter-day Saints and the personal revelation they received to walk a fourth option—being in a same-sex marriage and continuing to participate in Church (as much as they are allowed to). They talk about the love and support they are receiving from many church members. They also talk about their fears and what we can do as Latter-day Saints to lower their fears/anxiety so church attendance can continue and provide the hope/peace that worshiping Jesus brings. They finish with talking about a new Instagram account they started called The Forth Option @the.fourth.option and the need to give grace/support for queer Latter-day Saints and former Latter-day Saints walking other roads. Thank you, Liz and Ryan, for being on the podcast. You are a wonderful couple. I learned so much from you. Glad more are hearing your story. Liz and Ryan’ Instagram Account: @the.fourth.option Richard Ostler books/bio/etc.: www.papaostler.com Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

    Episode 725: Andrew Davis, SSA Latter-day Saint, Host of Podcast “Sons of God” Dec 20, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Andrew Davis (age 31, self-employed, active LDS, same-sex attraction, podcast host) joins us to bravely share his story. Andrew (who is a son of my awesome mission companion Jamison Davis) courageously talks about his growing up years navigating his attraction to men, porn use, anxiety, and fear—and his prayers for this all to be taken from him. Andrew talks about how his relationship with God and the Savior helped him find peace and hope in his life—including that his SSA attraction/thoughts are not a sin—but acting on them is. Andrew talks about his plans to live a covenant keeping life, how his primary label is a child of God, and his plans to marry a woman in the Temple. Andrews talks about the need for more stories of Latter-day Saints with SSA who have conservative views and are living lives within Church teachings—and the need to better support these members. This led to Andrew starting a podcast called “Sons of God: Conservative Views on Faith & Same-Sex Attraction.” I was deeply moved listening to Andrew and this commitment to the Gospel, faith, self-awareness and finding peace on a very difficult road. You are a good man Andrew—thank you for your courage to share your story—it helps reduce shame, gives hopes, and helps more feel belonging. Your work is helping so many! Links: Facebook page: www.facebook.com/sonsofgodpodcast Email: contact.sonsofgodpodcast@gmail.com Linktree: linktr.ee/sonsofgodpodcast Richard Ostler books/bio/etc.: www.papaostler.com Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

    Episode 724: Jessy Markowitz, LDS Convert, Sexual Assault Survivor, Finding Healing Dec 16, 2023
    Show notes

    ** Trigger Warning: This podcast discusses suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988 ** My brave friend Jessy Markowitz joins us from Las Vegas to share her story. Jessy starts with the realities of her life resulting in immense pain and, at times, loss of hope. Jessy talks about her father’s death at age 4, being sexually assaulted, and then her brother Dennis’ death from suicide in Feb 2017. Jessy was very close to Dennis and talks about the pain of his death. Jessy, now a married mother, talks about feeling so much darkness and lack of hope in her life following Dennis’ death. Jessy talks about the deeply spiritual experiences that led her to Jesus and to membership in the Church (and later her husband). Jessy talks about the dramatic contrast between her life without Jesus and her life now with Jesus, the Church, and the healing power of His atonement. It is a remarkable story that gives hope to everyone. Jessy talks about her love of the temple (including her husband Mitch doing the proxy work for her brother and father). Jessy concludes with her testimony of the Church, Jesus, BYU-Pathways, and her plans to write a book. I was so moved listening to Jessy’s powerful story and testimony. Thank you, Jessy, to being on the podcast and your work to help everyone feel the love, peace, and hope of Jesus. You are a remarkable woman and help make this world a better place. Links: Instagram: @mychallengehisstrength E-mail: markowitzjess@gmail.com Richard Ostler books/bio/etc.: www.papaostler.com

    Episode 723: Dallin Patton, Gay Latter-Day Saint, Mid-20s, Utah State University Dec 13, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Dallin Patton (from Tucson, Kansas Wichita Mission RM, Senior in Social Work at Utah State University) joins us to bravely share his story. Dallin discusses the years before his mission (navigating his identity, some conversion therapy, and mostly putting it in a “box at the back of his head”). These were difficult years for Dallin. Dallin talks about his decision to serve a mission (spent most of his time in Wichita, Kansas) and often being filled with anxiety that someone would discover his sexual orientation. Dallin talks about how his mission was both incredibly hard and amazing—and how the anxiety and depression led to him coming home after about 17 months of service. Dallin then talks about attending Utah State and dating women as that was his “only hope for a normal life” and “being gay was like a death sentence”. After not being able to make it work with a woman, Dallin talks about how he moved out of the dark space to more light and hope including personal revelation stating “Dallin you are gay and that is OK”. Dallin talks about starting a chapter of the “Queer Christian Initiative” at Utah State and the need for safe spaces for those that are queer and Christians. Dallin concludes talking about how his emotional health and hope for the future “has never been better”. If you are queer and trying to find hope, Dallin’s story will help you. If you are a parent, friend and/or ally to queer Latter-day Saints, Dallin’s story will help you. Thank you, Dallin, for being on the podcast. You are a great man with a wonderful future. This world is a better place with Dallin Patton in it! Links: Dallin Patton’s IG: @dallin.patton Richard Ostler books/bio/etc.: www.papaostler.com Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

    Episode 722: Margaret Olsen Hemming & Fatimah Salleh: Book of Mormon for the Least of These, Vol. 3 Dec 10, 2023
    Show notes

    My friends Margaret Olsen Hemming and Rev. Dr. Fatimah Salleh (who was on Episode 710) join us to talk about their latest (and final) volume of “The Book of Mormon for the Least of These, Volume 3: Helaman-Moroni.” Margaret and Fatimah share some of the behind-the-scenes story of working together to write these books, their personal journeys with the Book of Mormon, and what they hope to accomplish with their books. Their work helps us read the book from a social justice perspective that speaks to issues of racism, sexism, immigrations, refugees, and socioeconomic inequality—and then consider what we can do in our circle of influence to be better disciples of Christ. I was so moved listening to these inspiring scholars, authors, theologians, and disciples. I will be using their books as I study the Book of Mormon in 2024 and look for things I need to change in my world view to better love, see, and support those walking a harder road. Thank you, Margaret and Fatimah, for your wonderful work. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Book of Mormon for the Least of These (published by my friends at BCC Press): Volume 1: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1948218232 Volume 2: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1948218585 Volume 3: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1948218992

    Episode 721: Sofia Jones, Convert, Lesbian, Asexual Dec 08, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Sofia Jones (from Bakersfield California, joined Church in March 2021, mid-20s) join us to share her story. Sofia (who grew up Christian) talks about changing her initial assumptions about Latter-day Saints and being willing to meet with the missionaries, read the Book of Mormon, and be baptized. It is a beautiful conversation story with insights on the added gospel understanding unique to our restored Church—which brings peace, hope and perspective. Sofia then talks about being willing to consider her sexual orientation and how her YSA Ward is a safe place to be LGBTQ—including her ward member Adam Garrett (episode 508) who shared helpful insights. Sofia talks about how she never considered that being LGBTQ would be OK to God and compatible with being a Christian. She talks about her journey to find acceptance within herself—and the role of personal revelation—of being asexual and a lesbian. Sofia talks about how “God still loves you and God is still for you”. This is a wonderful podcast for someone considering joining the Church (or trying to stay in) and/or someone trying to find peace/acceptance with their sexual orientation or gender identity. Thank you, Sofia, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are a wonderful disciple of Christ Our Church and world are a better place because of you. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Sofia's Instagram: @sofiamjones Richard Ostler books/bio/etc.: www.papaostler.com Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

    Episode 720: Dr. Heidi Hastings, Understanding and Navigating Betrayal Trauma Dec 03, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Dr. Heidi Hastings joins us to talk about her research around betrayal trauma for women in marriages (largely around a husband’s pornography use) She is married, LDS, mother of 4, lives in Frisco, Texas, sex and marriage researcher/educator, teaches Family Stress and Coping for BYU-Idaho online, Master’s and Ph.D. degrees in Human Development and Family Studies from Texas Woman’s University. Dr. Hastings vulnerably shares some of her own story, as well as her research, which includes a model she developed as part of her Ph.D. dissertation called “Stages of Betray of Self-Development.” The five stages (innocence, crisis, aftermath, healing, and transformation) are so helpful to those walking the road of betrayal trauma and those working to help them. Dr. Hastings concludes with important takeaways, including the role of God, how Jesus is “relief,” women need women to heal, the need for couples to communicate about pornography and sexuality, and the unhelpful role of shame in keeping pornography use “underground.” This is one of the most helpful, insightful, and powerful podcasts we’ve done on seeing, understanding, and solving betrayal trauma and how it is possible to move forward with peace, hope, and healing. I encourage everyone to listen to this podcast for the insights and principles Dr. Hastings shares that can help each of us have better/more healthy relationships. It also provides tools and ideas to help others in our areas of responsibility. Thank you, Dr. Hastings, for your groundbreaking work, which is so needed in our community. Honored to have you on the podcast! Richard "Papa" Ostler Links: Dr. Hastings' email: dr.heidihastings@gmail.com Jesus is Relief talk based on her research: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjfGurwMl9g Google Form for submitting your story to help influence the direction of Dr Hastings' new book: https://forms.gle/Ffkg6h483ewzptBK8 Mood Log exercise to help change distressing thought patterns (see https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/s6cdjhdoumzqijgx198ur/Mood-logs-Dr-Hastings-Podcast.doc?rlkey=35zxda71dwbqh5065kxrd6hei&dl=0). For details about how to implement this form, check out the full book, When Panic Attacks by D. D. Burns (2006).

    Episode 719: Meagan Skidmore, Parent of Trans Child, Life Transitions Coach Nov 22, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Meagan Skidmore (lives in Texas, LDS parent of a transgender son, life coach, podcaster) joins us to talk about her 4+ year journey of parenting a LGBTQ kiddo. Meagan, in one of the most heartfelt podcasts we’ve done, talks about what parents can do to support their LGBTQ child and what parents can do to take care of themselves. Meagan talks about her own journey to educate herself, separate political rhetoric from facts, being curious, practical ways to listen better, importance of stories, mourning, and personal revelations from God. This is a beautiful family love story. If you are looking for the voice of a thoughtful and seasoned parent in this space, I encourage you to listen to Meagan’s podcast and check out her work. I learned so much from Meagan. Thank you, Meagan, for being on the podcast and all your heartfelt work to bring more understanding, love and support. You are making a huge difference for good in our community! Links: Meagan Skidmore Web Page: meaganskidmorecoaching.com/ Meagan’s Life and Love Story: liftandlove.org/stories/the-meagan-skidmore-story Podcast: Beyond the Shadow of Doubt™: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beyond-the-shadow-of-doubt/id1641584986 Social Media: Instagram: instagram.com/meaganskidmorecoaching Facebook: facebook.com/profile.php?id=100064267982984 TikTok: tiktok.com/@meaganskidmorecoaching LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/meaganskidmore Additional podcast interviews where I share my story, starting with most recent: 10/26/23 Become a Trauma Informed Coach podcast, episode #53: More inclusivity for the LGBTQIA+ community with Meagan Skidmore (lindsaypoelmancoaching.com/blog/episode53) 08/01/23 Latter-day Life Coach Directory podcast, episode #136: Real connection through vulnerability with Meagan Skidmore (ldslifecoaches.com/episode/136-real-connection-through-vulnerability-with-meagan-skidmore/) 03/21/23, Not Your Mama's RS podcast: Choose Love: parenting children who are LGBTQ+ with Meagan Skidmore (podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/annie-carter/episodes/Choose-Love-Parenting-Children-who-are-LGBQT-e20s9dt/a-a95on4s) 12/13/22 Latter-day Life Coach Directory podcast, episode #103: Faith-filled questioning with Meagan Skidmore (ldslifecoaches.com/episode/103-faith-filled-questioning-with-meagan-skidmore/) 02/24/22 Coaching Your Family Relationships podcast, episode #37: Love and peace with your LGBTQ+ child with Meagan Skidmore (podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/love-and-peace-with-your-lgbtq-child-with-meagan-skidmore/id1575423161?i=1000552084613)

    Episode 718: Katherine and Jeff Wise, LDS Parents of a Gay Son, Founders of The Hearth Nov 19, 2023
    Show notes

    My friends Katherine and Jeff Wise (parents of six sons and one daughter, living in the Bay Area ) invite us into the sacred space of their tender story of their youngest son Talmage coming out as gay at age 17 in 2013. Katherine and Jeff (who was serving as a Bishop at the time) talk about their fears, reactions, things they wish they did better, how to find resources, and the personal revelation they received to love and support Talmage. It is a beautiful family love story. They update us on Talmage’s life (he has a wonderful boyfriend and is living his best self in New York) and their continued love for Talmage and his partner Matt. They talk about how they don’t have fears of “empty chairs” in the next life. Katherine and Jeff talk about doing a one-time fireside in their home in March, 2015, focused on supporting LGBTQ members and how that led to The Hearth—a monthly gathering in the Wise home that continues today. They talk about the importance of creating a community of support and love where we can share in each other’s journeys. Katherine and Jeff talk about why they stay active members of the Church—even with the pain of the “dark corner” of this space within our Church. It’s a moving part of their story seeing the aggregate good of the Church while living with the reality of the pain of many LGBTQ members and their families. This is one of the best podcasts we’ve done with parents of an LGBTQ child. Katherine and Jeff have been on this road for 10 years and have mature insights, principles, and perspective to share with others. They also have the long-view of improvements being made over the past ten years—while acknowledging we still have much work to do. This is also an excellent podcast for anyone considering putting together a support group in their area of influence. Thank you, Katherine and Jeff, for opening your hearts and sharing your beautiful family story! Links: The Hearth: www.ldshearth.org/ Elder Daines Conference Talk: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/13daines Richard Ostler books/bio/etc: www.papaostler.com Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

    Episode 717: Sean Stansberry, Convert, Age 21, SSA, Preparing for Mission Nov 15, 2023
    Show notes

    My friend Sean Stansberry (living in New Bern, North Carolina; college student, joined the Church in April 2021) joins us to share his story. Sean starts with joining the church during coronavirus and getting baptized 2.5 weeks later. Sean talks about receiving the priesthood, blessing the sacrament, and attending the temple and being part of young men’s and the youth group for a few months before switching to elders quorum/adult sunday school. Sean talks about the blessing in his life from Church membership. Sean continues with His love of the temple and receiving his endowment and the peace and no-judgment that is part of his temple experience. Sean talks about coming out publicly on social media and in church being SSA and how that was with both positive and difficult experiences at Church in his home ward and his local YSA branch and some experiences that he has had with his church leaders both present and past church leaders. Sean talks about how he navigates the difficult experiences and why he stays a member of the church. Sean concludes with his plans to serve a mission and attending the temple and how the spirit is his constant companion. Thank you, Sean, for being on the podcast. I was so moved hearing your story of courage and faith. You are brave. You are a good man and make this world a better place. Thank you for being on the podcast! Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sean.stansberryy Instagram: https://instagram.com/fypsean Twitter: twitter.com/fypsean Richard Ostler books/bio/etc: www.papaostler.com Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

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