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    Religion & Spirituality

    Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

    Welcome to our podcast!

    My name is Richard H. Ostler and I am a native of Salt Lake City, small business owner, married father of six with several grandchildren. I believe in and am deeply committed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and want it to work for a wider group.
    I am the author of three books:

    “Listen Learn and Love: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints” published in 2020 available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462135773)

    “Listen Learn and Love: Improving Latter-day Saint Culture” published in 2022. The book explores who we can do better to help all Latter-day Saints feel more welcome, needed and a feeling of belonging in our congregations. Available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462139566)

    “Listen Learn and Love: Building the Good Ship Zion” released in Sept 2023. The book explores additional topics to help all Latter-day Saint feel welcome and needed on the Good Ship Zion. Available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462145280)

    The purpose of all three books is to help us better create Zion by helping more feel welcome, a sense of belonging, and needed in our congregations.

    Proceed from the books go the Stockton Power Memorial Scholarship (www.standingforstockton.com) in honor of Stockton Powers a gay Latter-day Saint teenager who died of suicide in 2016. Everything I do is a self-funded labor of love ❤️

    I am the author of two Ensign articles:

    ‘How the Savior’s Healing Power Applies to Repenting from Sexual Sin’ (August 2020/YSA Digital Only) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/08/young-adults/how-the-saviors-healing-power-applies-to-repenting-from-sexual-sin

    ‘7 Tips for Overcoming Pornography Use’ (October, page 72) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/10/young-adults/7-tips-for-overcoming-pornography-use.

    This podcast is designed to discuss some more complicated issues in our church to help all of us better “listen, learn and love” so we can minister in a more effective way to all of our Heavenly Parents’ children.

    Podcasts are indexed by category at listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

    Thank you for joining us. You can’t donate to this podcast. There are no sponsors. But you can leave a review/rate the podcast on the platform you are listening and/or leave a review at Deseret Book/Amazon on my books.

    With love, Richard ‘Papa’ Ostler ❤

    Twitter: twitter.com/Papa_Ostler
    IG: www.instagram.com/papa_ostler
    Facebook: facebook.com/richard.ostler.5
    Substack: https://substack.com/@papaostler
    E-mail: richard@ostlergroup.com

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    Copyright: © All rights reserved

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    Latest Episodes:
    Episode 746: Cameron Staley, Ph.D. – New Book “Confessions of an LDS Sex Researcher.” Mar 25, 2024
    Show notes

    This episode is guest-hosted by my friend, Tonya Miller. Tonya was on episode 501 and wrote the third chapter in my most recent book, called “Ministering To Those With Church-Generated Pain or Trauma.” Tonya interviews Dr. Cameron Staley, Ph.D., who talks about his most recent book: “Confessions of an LDS Sex Researcher.” Cameron is a clinical psychologist who is currently working in private practice. He is an active member of the Church, and he and his wife have 4 children. Cameron talks about his research, discovering that unwanted pornography viewing may be more of a compulsion rather than an addiction. The implications of this led him to create self-directed programs including “Life After Pornography” and the “Life After Pornography Coach” app, based on research supported treatments for reducing compulsive pornography viewing. Cameron talks about how he hopes his book will help shift views around sexuality and its intersection with religion. He also describes his experiences navigating his psychology training while maintaining his religious beliefs, even at times when these two spaces seemed to be incompatible. He talks about recognizing the benefits that both of these perspectives bring to informing our understanding of sexuality and mental health. He has seen the challenges associated with working through gender and sexual identity issues, pornography concerns, and shares ideas about how working through these experiences can exist while also growing our testimonies and efforts in being disciples of Jesus Christ. Cameron also describes how his work as a psychologist has helped him develop a greater love towards God, his “neighbors,” and himself, and shares examples of ways that diversity enriches our opportunities to develop Christlike love. I am grateful to Cameron for his expertise, as well as his openminded and openhearted approach to teaching us more about these topics. You can learn more about his counseling services and free resources on his website, listed below. As a side note, I’m focusing on stories associated with the Queer-LDS experience now. However, if you would like to share your story about a different Church- or gospel-related topic on Listen, Learn and Love, please contact Tonya about the possibility of working with her as my guest-host (e-mail Tonya at tonya@cottonwood.care). Richard 'Papa' Ostler Links: www.cameronstaley.com https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CTSPNGSD https://www.lifeafterpornography.com/sales-page33509805 https://getyourmarriageon.com/life-after-pornography-coach/

    Episode 745: Jacob Guy, Gay Latter-day Saint, New Book: “The Scorpion Unit” Mar 21, 2024
    Show notes

    **Warning: This podcast talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Jacob Guy (RM, age 23, Senior at Weber State, shared his story on Episode 613) joins us to talk about his new book “The Scorpion Unit” a story that Jacob hopes will help people considering suicide. In the podcast, Jacob talks about why he wrote the book, who he hopes will read it, and what how he hopes it will help people. Jacob shares his plans for future books. Jacob also talks about his road as a gay Latter-day Saint, what he is learning, how he is feeling about his future, and how people help him (please listen to Episode 613 for more of his story). I honored to have Jacob back on the podcast to connect listeners with his new book. I encourage everyone to read/share Jacob’s book and consider what we can do to better support our LGBTQ friends and family members. You are a good man, Jacob. So talented. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Jacob’s Book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0CWXMS923 Jacob’s earlier podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-613-jacob-guy-age-22-gay-latter-day-saint/id1347971725?i=1000599213707

    Episode 744: Stacie Proctor, Survivor of Mental Health-Related Trauma. Mar 17, 2024
    Show notes

    This episode is guest-hosted by my friend, Tonya Miller. Tonya was on episode 501 and wrote the third chapter in my most recent book, called “Ministering To Those With Church-Generated Pain or Trauma.” Tonya interviews Stacie Proctor, who joins us to talk about her life as a mom, wife, business executive, and active member of the Church, who also lives with bipolar disorder. Stacie was diagnosed in her twenties, when she experienced an episode of psychosis that resulted in her being hospitalized. Stacie describes these events, and others associated with it, that set the stage for a fundamental shift in her worldview and testimony. She gives us a glimpse into what she learned about acceptance of limitations, and ways that this can lead to heightened perspectives and deep peace that would have been unimaginable had she not gone through the frightening experiences surrounding her diagnosis. She talks about a period of time during which she knew she needed to take some space from full activity in the Church, and discusses the stigma associated with mental illness that still often exists within LDS culture. Stacie describes the ways she has been able to reconcile this fact with her faith, and how this paved the way for her to return to active participation in the Church with a renewed sense of identity and purpose. Stacie is very dedicated to the process of fostering community connections, not just within the Church, but also within families, government, and business, and has developed a variety of platforms to promote these ideas. For example, she is the founder and CEO of Gathrd, and is currently serving as Mrs. Vineyard, Utah; she utilizes these positions as way to spread her message: “It Takes a Village: Restoring Community & Connection Through Collaboration”. Stacie also talks about motherhood and ways that living with mental health challenges can impact those she loves most. I am so grateful for Stacie and her willingness to talk about these subjects. It takes a lot of courage to give voice to mental health issues, especially when we dialogue about them as lived experiences, rather than in an academic way. Most people agree that mental health is an important topic but still find it an incredibly uncomfortable thing to talk about. Stacie’s story is brave and compelling, and I am grateful for her willingness to be candid about topics that can be confusing. I believe listeners will feel more hopeful about whatever they are facing after listening to Stacie’s story. As a side note, I am focusing only on sharing stories associated with the Queer-LDS experience now. However, if you would like to share your story about a different Church- or gospel-related topic on Listen, Learn and Love, please contact Tonya about the possibility of working with her as my guest-host (e-mail Tonya at tonya@cottonwood.care).

    Episode 743: Dale Schafer, Convert, RM, Same-Sex Marriage, Deep Testimony of the Church/God Mar 12, 2024
    Show notes

    My friend Dale Schafer (California Convert, Adelaide Australia ’79-81 RM, Twice Excommunicated, Lives with his husband in Hudson Valley, NY) joins us to share his story his life as a gay Latter-day Saint. Dale starts with his childhood of feeling like an outcast/not belonging because of his sexual attraction to men. Dale talks about his conversation story followed by his desire to serve a mission (good experience). Dale talks about trying to be honest/live with integrity as he did his best to move forward (came out to mom, mission president, BYU counseling center, broke off an engagement, and his bishop). Dale talks about being excommunicated but then rebaptized while at Utah State and then moving to Boston where he stepped away from the Church—but always felt it was his spiritual home. Dale talks about these years including becoming HIV+ and how his testimony kept him alive. Dale talks about finding his husband (been together for over twenty years) and also attending his local LDS branch (positive experiences with branch president and missionaries). Dale talks about being excommunicated for the second time when the November 2015 policy and how he wishes that had turned out differently. Dale talks about his deep testimony of the Church, God’s love, his wish to take to sacrament—all with a personal feeling this will all work out and “follow me, and all will be well.”. I wish I could include more of Dale’s story shared on the podcast in this brief description. I was so moved listening to Dale’s story and grateful for his courage to share it with our listeners. You are a good man, Dale. All my love and support. Your story will help so many! Links: Dale’s e-mail: daleschafer@gmail.com Dale’s Instagram: @daleschafer

    Episode 742: Scott Grover, Gay British Latter-day Saint, Left Church for 18 Years, Returned Mar 08, 2024
    Show notes

    My friend Scott Gover (late 40’s, lives north of London, left church in his 20’s, returned 18 years later, active for last 11 years) joins us to share his story. Scott starts with his growing up years having a deep testimony of the Church and also realizing his was gay. After many unanswered prayers to change his sexual orientation, Scott concluded “I was so evil, that I was beyond God’s love and the atonement” and was going to end up somewhere between “outer darkness and the telestial kingdom.” It’s heartbreaking to hear Scott’s conclusions—which are logical conclusions for a closeted gay Latter-day Saint. Scott talks about eventually leaving the Church for 18 years—even with a testimony of the Church all those years. Scott talks talking to Elder Murdock and Cuche and deeply spiritual experience including Elder Murdock’s testimony that led Scott back into the Church. Scott talks about a disciplinary council (positive experience) that returned him to full fellowship, a Stake that put him to work (Elder Quorum President, High Councilor, etc), and a loving a supportive Ward family including his lifelong friend Lillian. It is a beautiful story of belonging and creating Zion. Scott talks about living “without all the answers” for queer people in the Church and his hope for more light and understanding. Scott talks about his Stake Conference talk (see show notes) being led by the Spirit to talk about being a gay Latter-day Saint—and all the positive/supportive comments he received. I was so moved listening to Scott. His spiritual maturity, his ability to survive his early years, his journey out and then back into the Church, his support system, and all the good he is going to help others feel God’s love and the healing powerful of the Atonement. Scott is helping expand the boarders of Zion and bring more hope, unity, and healing." Links: Stake Conference Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsM3SvNqFTs&t=3660s E-mail: uther2006@yahoo.co.uk Blog: http://www.thebookofgrover.co.uk/ Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

    Episode 741: John Gustav-Wrathall, Same-Sex Marriage, Believes In and Attends Church Mar 04, 2024
    Show notes

    This episode is guest-hosted by my friend Steven Kapp Perry from the “In Good Faith” podcast. He interviews John Gustav-Wrathall (a dear friend and mentor) who appeared in an early episode—Episode 49—which we’ll link to below. John shares some of his earliest spiritual experiences, which gave him a solid faith in God, and then describes his journey of listening to and following the clear promptings of the Spirit, even when that inspiration surprised him and was not what he was expecting. That included a life-saving impression to step away from the church for a time, and then, surprisingly, a call to return to it. We’ll also hear how John’s patience in certain painful situations at church later led to growth and change in the very people who had caused that distress. Thanks, John, for your courage to continue to share your story. I learn so much from you. Links: Episode 49: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-49-john-gustav-wrathall-same-sex-marriage-affirmation-executive-director Link to Emmaus Ministry: http://www.emmauslgbtq.org Link to the In Good Faith podcast: http://www.byuradio.org/ingoodfaith Link to Episode 586: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-586-steven-kapp-perry-gay-latter-day-saint-byu-employee-israel-tour-director

    Episode 740: Jacob Troxel, Recently Retuned Gay Missionary Mar 01, 2024
    Show notes

    My friend Jacob Troxel (who recorded this podcast three weeks after his successful mission in Canada Edmonton) joins us to bravely share his experiences as a gay Latter-day Saint and one of the first openly gay missionaries in the Church (which is noted on his Facebook profile). Jacob (who grew up in Camarillo) talks about realizing he might be different around age 12 and then came out to his Bishop and parents at age 16. Jacob talks about how he probably wouldn’t have stayed in the Church without the loving first response from his Bishop. Jacob talks about a powerful spiritual experience where his belief in God shifted from “having a testimony that He doesn’t love someone like me—to God is perfectly loving and loves me.” That is the anchor knowledge that has given Jacob peace as a gay Latter-day Saint and his burning desire to serve a mission so others could know that important gospel truth. Jacob takes us on his mission and shares the both the difficult experiences and the positive ones—ones where lives were changed. Jacob talks about the importance of proximity with stories of how companions did a “180” to full love, understand and support Jacob. These stories give me hope. Jacob also talks about how investigators and members concluded from Jacob’s example that “if there is room for Elder Troxel in the Church, maybe there is room for me.” Jacob is honest the positive experiences—made possible because he was open—and how those were matched by deeply wounding experiences which reminds me of Zechariah 13:6 “…. wounded in the house of my friends.” Jacob talks about boundaries, being honest with his pain, and finding grace for others. Jacob talks about his supportive parents as he makes his way forward. This is one of the best podcasts we’ve done as I was so moved listening to Jacob—a very mature soul. If you are considering a mission, on a mission or want to better support queer Latter-day Saints, this podcast will help you. Thank you, Jacob, for your serve in Canada and helping many feel the love of God and a home in our restored Church. Thank you for your courage to serve—you are a trailblazer for others who will walk this road. Thank you for helping us expanding the boarders of Zion so more feel welcome, understood, and needed in our Church and beyond. You have a great life ahead of you! Lists: Jacob’s e-mail: jacobrtroxel@gmail.com Facebook: www.facebook.com/jacob.troxel.18 Instagram: www.instagram.com/jacobrtroxel/ Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-Day Saint FB Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

    Episode 739: Lindsey Sais, Same-Sex Marriage, Believe in Savior/Church, Overcoming Addition Feb 26, 2024
    Show notes

    My friend Lindsey Sais joins us to share her powerful story. Lindsey (early 40s, married for 5 years to her wife Connie, lives in Raleigh NC) joins us to bravely share her story of being divorced at age 23, coming out as gay that same year, working through addiction, being an ex-felon, and suicidal ideation. Lindsey talks about how addiction is not a moral failure—but rather a human reality from taking drugs/alcohol—which often starts to escape pain. Lindsey shares the process she took (along with God’s help) to become sober on Feb 13, 2013—it is a moving story that gives hope to others. Lindsey talks about how Christ’s love/atonement is not earned—it is just there for all of us—and how she accesses that love in her darkest days to feel hope and healing. Lindsey shared many lessons, perspectives, and insights for those in dark places to find a way forward—and the positive role of her parents on this long road. Lindsey talks about finding her soulmate in her wife Connie and how that relationship (based on trust, communication, and loyalty) has helped her become a better person and have more stability. Lindsey, who had her Latter-day Saint membership withdrawn in 2022, talks about her constant testimony of the Church and attending her supportive Ward. Thank you, Lindsey, for your courage to be on the podcast and share your story which helps so many find hope, healing, and peace. Honored to have you on the podcast and feel such a strong Sprit as you share your story. Links: Lindsay on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/palomas.gris https://www.instagram.com/kantyoudigit Lift and Love Story: https://www.instagram.com/p/CVA-1laBcnh/?igsh=MWc2NXNxM2hrcmQ3eA%3D%3D Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-Day Saint FB Group: Ministering Resources to support LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints

    Episode 738: Josh and Jen Rollins, LDS Parents of 3 LGBTQ children Feb 22, 2024
    Show notes

    My friends Josh and Jen Rollins (married for 26 years, parents of 5, live in Riverton Utah, active LDS) share their story of their middle child Aiden coming out as gay, then their oldest children Jace coming out as gay and later transgender, and then their second-oldest Chelsea coming out as bisexual. Josh (who was serving as Bishop during much of this time) and Jen share how their family went from fitting the perfect Latter-day Saint mold to where they are today—a beautiful family united in their love for each other and creating space for the lived experiences of each family member. Jen and Josh are honest that their journey has been difficult as their LGBTQ kids didn’t find it possible to find a place in the Church—and how they needed to reconstruct their hopes/dreams. Jen and Josh talk about their constant reliance of prayer and direction from Heavenly Parents. Jen and Josh talk about how having LGBTQ kids isn’t a “trial”—because their kids are great human beings doing much good in the world—that there is nothing wrong or that needs to be fixed with their sexual orientation/gender identity—but rather the “trial” is for their LGBTQ kids to find a place in the Church full of hope, support and understanding. I was so moved listening to Jen and Josh—two wonderful parents who have been on this road for 5+ years. If you are a new to the blessing of being a parent (or family member/ally) to a LGBTQ child, please listen to this episode—it will give you insights to walk your road and love your LGBTQ loved one. Jen and Josh conclude on why they stay members of the Church. Thank you, Jen and Josh, for being on the podcast. Your story will help so many. Links: Jan 2024 Leading Saints Story: leadingsaints.org/the-portrait-of-an-lbgtq-family-he-is-at-the-helm/ April 2021 Lift and Love Profile: www.instagram.com/p/COQIkF3h2ku/?img_index=1 Nov 2020 Human Stories Podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/77-human-stories-jessica-and-josh-rollins/id1468623842?i=1000500809211 Ministering to LGBTQ Latter-Day Saint FB Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

    Episode 737: Lily Prisbrey, Powerful Missionary Homecoming Talk Feb 18, 2024
    Show notes

    My friend Lily Prisbrey—who recently returned from both a proselyting mission (Philippines) and a service mission (Utah). She joins us to give her farewell talk. In this talk, Lily bravely talks about: Her journey with scrupulosity and faith-related guilt. Finding a loving, accepting, and NOT “ever-disappointed” God. Finding God in the Filipino people. Finding God through a Mission President who listened to doubts without judging and supported Lily’s decision to end her proselyting mission early. Finding God through failure. Inviting others to serve missions who don’t fit the mold. Lily concludes her talk with her powerful testimony of a loving God with 1 John 4: “God is love” and these words: “I am not a black and white, fit the mold, perfect kind of person. But I served as a missionary—and I hope that through what I’ve shared today—you all can see that if I can be a missionary, you can too”. We conclude with a discussion about her talk. Lily brings powerful insights into how to help everyone feel loved, accepted, and that there is room them. Lily is so brave and vulnerable—a sign of strength and discipleship that pattens how to help others feel welcome, safe, and needed. Thank you for being on the podcast Lily. I was so moved by your homecoming talk. Honored to provide a platform where more can hear your inspiring message. Links: Lily’s homecoming talk: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/to9a1bqw6btrihsj7dd67/Lily-Prisbrey-Homecoming-Talk-Feb-2024.pdf?rlkey=80xppy4jibj9np2kwjhyfob6e&dl=0

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