Flying Free

Latest Episodes:

Understanding Reactive Abuse and Reabuse [214] Mar 14, 2023

Show notes

Annette Oltmans is here to help us better understand reactive abuse and reabuse. After having personal experience with an emotionally abusive husband and reabuse from her church and therapists, she is on a mission to help other women in similar situations. Let’s dive into the messiness surrounding reactive abuse, what we can do to protect ourselves from reabuse, and how we can heal.

Key Points From This Episode:

What reactive abuse is, what causes it, and why “reactive defense” might be a better term.
What mutual abuse is (and why it’s is actually a myth).
Why having a therapist who is an expert in the field of domestic violence is critical to your healing (and helps you avoid reabuse).
Different forms of reabuse, also known as “double abuse.”
Why reabuse can cause C-PTSD.
How to avoid reactive abuse and reabuse.
What Vietnam War veterans and you have in common.

Access the transcript, read the show notes, and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

Annette has some excellent articles on her site that you don’t want to miss, including “What Most Miss About Reactive Abuse,” “Overt vs. Covert Behaviors (Relationship Examples),” and the one she mentioned in today’s episode, “How to Choose a Therapist for Your Troubled Relationship.”
If you’re in a difficult or abusive marriage or relationship, gain the clarity to navigate out of the maze of confusion and experience healing by joining M3ND’s relationship conflict course. Use the code FLYINGFREE at checkout for 25% off!
If you are a Christian woman who thinks you may be in an emotionally destructive marriage, learn more at https://flyingfreenow.com
I'll send you (free!) the first chapter of my book, Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage, which has an assessment to help you figure out if your relationship is abusive or not. All you have to do is hop on my mailing list at https://flyingfreesisterhood.com/free-download
You can also find out about our online education and support program for women of faith at https://joinflyingfree.com
And finally, if you are a divorced Christian woman who wants to take back her life and get healthy, lose weight, have amazing relationships, get things done, build a business or career, and even find a good man (if you want one) - check out Flying Higher at https://joinflyinghigher.com

Annette Oltmans is a celebrated author, speaker and founder of The M3ND Project, (TMP), a 501c3 organization dedicated to educating victims/survivors, therapists, faith leaders, and other responders on hidden emotional abuse and double abuse. Her personal experience with prolonged emotional abuse in her marriage and double abuse by therapists and faith leaders, along with her extensive field research and journey toward recovery, led her to develop training curricula, tools, and resources that comprehensively address these topics.

Won't Abusers Get Away With Everything if We Believe God's Love is Unconditional? [213] Mar 07, 2023

Show notes

Are we unconditionally loved by God or not? How you answer that question will play a role in how you live your life.

Key Points From This Episode:

Why Natalie relates to our listener’s anxiety over this topic.
Why Natalie thought her own mother’s treatment of her was how God must treat her, too. Spoiler alert: This was not a fair comparison.
How spiritualizing everything can be detrimental to your emotional and mental well-being.
Why believing that everyone else who is in “authority” over you is speaking the words of God can lead to some serious spiritual abuse.
The difference in believing that God’s love is not unconditional versus believing that His love is unconditional, and the fruits that appear in our lives due to each belief.
How your programming about God determines what you will find in the Bible.
Our conclusion (another spoiler alert): God’s love is not weak, and you are not a problem that His love can’t handle. God is not like people, and His love isn’t, either.

Access the transcript, read the show notes, and/or ask Natalie a question here

If you are a Christian woman who thinks you may be in an emotionally destructive marriage, learn more at https://flyingfreenow.com

I'll send you (free!) the first chapter of my book, Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage, which has an assessment to help you figure out if your relationship is abusive or not. All you have to do is hop on my mailing list at https://flyingfreesisterhood.com/free-download

You can also find out about our online education and support program for women of faith at https://joinflyingfree.com

And finally, if you are a divorced Christian woman who wants to take back her life and get healthy, lose weight, have amazing relationships, get things done, build a business or career, and even find a good man (if you want one) - check out Flying Higher at https://joinflyinghigher.com

Setting Boundaries with Adult Children [212] Feb 28, 2023

Show notes

What does showing up for your children mean once they are adults? It is selfish to “let them go,” make mistakes, and struggle as they make their own way in the world? Also, why in the world would an abuser file for divorce from his victim? Isn’t it usually the other way around?

Natalie is back answering listener questions, and her insights will encourage and support you.

Key Points From This Episode:

Why you aren’t selfish for refusing to take responsibility for your adult children.
The differences between emotional childhood and emotional adulthood.
Strategies for how you can support and help your adult children while still maintaining healthy boundaries.
Why an abuser may file for divorce before you do.
Why disregarding your abuser’s motives and instead focusing on your own rebuilding is critical.

Access the transcript, read the show notes, and/or ask Natalie a question here

If you are a Christian woman who thinks you may be in an emotionally destructive marriage, learn more at https://flyingfreenow.com

You can also find out about our online education and support program for women of faith at https://joinflyingfree.com

An Adult Child of Divorce Answers Survivor Questions [211] Feb 21, 2023

Show notes

Have you ever wondered what divorce would be like from the perspective of a teenager? The members in my private program, Flying Free, asked my daughter, Aimee, a ton of questions about her experience with divorce as a teenage girl. We’re here today to answer all of them: the awkward, the hilarious, and the intense.

Aimee was fourteen-years-old when my ex and I separated and seventeen-years-old when we were (finally) officially divorced. She was in her teenage-prime. But she made it through to the other side and is now a thriving, mildly successful young adult (her words, not mine). She knows a thing or two about being a teenager living through divorce, things we might not know as moms of kids. Listen as we riff about what this experience was like for her as she grew up.

Just a few of the questions you’ll see in today’s episode:

My adult daughter says she feels shame over her parents' divorce. Would you agree? Did you feel shame over your parents' divorce?”
When adult children know deep down that their father was emotionally abusive to their mother, why do they tend to blame the mother for dissolving the marriage?
Do you think you were treated like you were too fragile to handle the truth of divorce, or do you think you weren't shielded enough?
Have you been in any kind of therapy, and if so, what kind and did it help?
Did you side with one parent over another, and if so, what influenced that decision?
How did your parents' separation impact your relationship with your brothers and sisters at the time that they first separated, and then how has that changed over time?
When should a parent start putting teens into counseling?
Do you still grieve the divorce as an adult, and do you think your siblings do?
What do you do when you know your father's behavior is wrong, but you still love him?

Access the transcript, read the show notes, and/or ask Natalie a question here

If you are a Christian woman who thinks you may be in an emotionally destructive marriage, learn more at https://flyingfreenow.com

You can also find out about our online education and support program for women of faith at https://joinflyingfree.com

A Man Who Admits to Being Abusive Asks "How Do I Fight For My Wife?" [210] Feb 14, 2023

Show notes

It’s not often that we get a listener question from a man, and less often that we actually answer it. But today’s question of, “Should I continue to hold out hope for my marriage after abusing my wife? Should I fight for my wife? And what, in your opinion, does that look like?” struck me as being a question that we could all benefit from, so I’m going to give you my honest answer and hopefully help all of the women in this community as well as this seemingly well-intentioned man.

Let’s talk about what taking responsibility looks like, why advocates and victims of emotional abuse using sarcasm and satire to make their points, how abusers who want to change and actually love their wives can do that well (hint: it isn’t by trying to stay in power and control over the wife), and why my book may help you figure out if you are in an abusive marriage.

Key Points From This Episode:

What taking responsibility for your actions may look like
What triggers abusers and how an abuser’s mind thinks
The best way an abuser can “fight” for their marriage (if they truly have changed)
What the secret ingredient to a healthy marriage is
Why giving your wife an amazing divorce may be the best way to show her that you love her
A run-down of my book and why it may be helpful for you as you figure out if you are in an emotionally abusive marriage

Access the transcript, read the show notes, and/or ask Natalie a question here

If you are a Christian woman who thinks you may be in an emotionally destructive marriage, learn more at https://flyingfreenow.com

You can also find out about our online education and support program for women of faith at https://joinflyingfree.com

A Groundbreaking Therapy that Fosters Healing and Connection with Self, God, and Others [209] Feb 07, 2023

Show notes

Learn about one of the fastest growing and most effective healing modalities in the therapy world right now—and how it can change YOUR life!

Internal Family Systems (IFS for short) may change the way you think about yourself, God, others, and your whole life (in a good way!)

Professional therapist Jenna Riemersma and I talk about IFS, how it ties into our faith, where we can find IFS in the Bible, and why IFS can be incredibly helpful as we learn how to break free and move forward from emotional and spiritual abuse. IFS changed the trajectory of Jenna’s life, and it can do the same for you.

If you are looking for healing, a deeper connection with God, a deeper connection with yourself, and a deeper love for yourself, this episode is for you. Let’s learn more about ourselves, others, and God as we explore the precious “family” that lives inside of us.

Key Points From This Episode:

What Internal Family Systems is and where it originated from
What job each separate part of us has, and why they are important
Where we can find IFS in the Bible and how it ties into our faith
How IFS can not only help us connect with God, but can help us find God inside of ourselves
How IFS can help us heal from emotional and spiritual abuse

Access the transcript, read the show notes, and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

Read the book that kick-started this interview, Altogether You.
Jenna’s web site has all kinds of incredible resources, including meditations to help you explore different parts inside of you, IFS apps, books, and workshops
My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming.
Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse.
Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay well in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you!
Support the Flying Free podcast AND get in on monthly deep-dive discussions with podcast guests by joining the Flying Free Podcast Club for a $5 monthly donation HERE. (Members of Flying Free and Flying Higher can join these discussions FREE. Just reach out to me, natalie@flyingfreenow.com, and we'll get you set up!)

Jenna Riemersma is a Harvard-educated innovator and therapist, and is the founder and clinical director of the Atlanta Center for Relational Healing. By bringing together the best of cutting-edge neuroscience, clinical treatment and spirituality, she’s created a dynamic paradigm shift from mental illness to mental fitness, and is on a quest to make spiritual and emotional wellness widely accessible. Jenna’s #1 best selling book, Altogether You, integrates spirituality and a parts-based awareness of human suffering that offers compassionate, practical hope for today’s skyrocketing rates of overwhelm, anxiety and depression.

Nine Codependency Behaviors Religious Communities Reward in Christian Women [208] Jan 31, 2023

Show notes

There’s a lot of confusion surrounding the term “codependency.” Is codependency bad? Am I codependent? How do I know? And what can I do differently if I want to break some of my codependent habits?

In this episode, I break down eighteen different codependent thoughts and beliefs that many Christian women are taught. I also explore nine codependent “rules” that abusers and abusive religious communities hold us to that create codependence in us, and then I systematically explain why they are flawed and how we can change our thoughts surrounding them.

We are not stuck in codependency. Let’s learn how to break free from the rules and regulations that keep us in codependent cycles.

Key Points From This Episode:

Eighteen codependent behaviors or beliefs, and how I have related to them in the past (and why you might, too)
Nine crazy codependent rules that oppressive systems force on their victims
Why those rules are flawed and how to think about them through a different lens
Why we shouldn’t beat ourselves up if we find ourselves stuck in codependence

Access the transcript, read the show notes, and/or ask Natalie a question here

If you are a Christian woman who thinks you may be in an emotionally destructive marriage, learn more at https://flyingfreenow.com

You can also find out about our online education and support program for women of faith at https://joinflyingfree.com

Help! My Husband Twists Words to Confuse Me, and I Feel Guilty and Full of Shame [206] Jan 17, 2023

Show notes

Have you ever wondered what Genesis 3:16 really means? Or perhaps your abuser is accusing you of forcing him into a transactional relationship simply because you’ve set down some boundaries he doesn’t like? How do we deal with these tough questions? In this episode, Natalie answers these questions by getting into the nitty gritty of Genesis 3:16, why we can trust ourselves, how not to get hooked in our abuser’s little game, and more. Let’s get out of the guilt and shame loop together.

Key Points From This Episode:

Our first listener question: “What does Genesis 3:16 really mean?” (4:01)
The revelation that the Bible is a starter log of a fire, but the actual fire is… listen and find out!
The Holy Spirit lives inside of YOU. He gives YOU wisdom too!
Why men probably don’t want to let go of their power and control in the world just yet.
Listener question number two: “Does setting a boundary now mean we have a transactional relationship?” (20:58)
How to not get hooked back into the crazy game abusers like to play (and what that game is).
What do we do with comments that are designed to trigger our guilt and shame?
Remember, just because your abuser says that you're mean doesn't actually mean you're mean. (But what DOES it mean?)

Access the transcript, read the show notes, and/or ask Natalie a question here

If you are a Christian woman who thinks you may be in an emotionally destructive marriage, learn more at https://flyingfreenow.com

You can also find out about our online education and support program for women of faith at https://joinflyingfree.com

Where Does My Help Come From? [205] Jan 10, 2023

Show notes

Modern Christianity tends to champion Bible worship over Christ worship, and in this episode, we are joined by Keith Giles to discuss the implications of essentially replacing Christ with the Bible.

Keith is a former pastor who “left the pulpit to follow Jesus.” He is the author of notable books such as Sola Mysterium, Jesus Unbound, and Jesus Undefeated, the podcast host of Heretic Happy Hour, Apostates Anonymous, and Second Cup with Keith, and is the Founder of the Square 1 Community. Having been self-taught, Keith has insight into what isn’t being taught in seminary school, and in our conversation, he explains the difference between education and indoctrination, as well as that between faith and certainty. He breaks down the Jesus-centric approach to scripture and what it truly means when it’s said that scripture is God-breathed.

Tune in to hear Keith’s take on the fallibility of humans and the Christ-centric way we should approach the Bible.

Key Points From This Episode:

The implications of the Bible becoming the modern Christian’s God.
The danger of indoctrination in seminary school.
The difference between education and indoctrination.
The undeniable mystery of God.
The difference between faith and certainty.
The heresy of replacing Christ with the Bible.
Keith breaks down Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed…”
The importance of considering human fallibility when approaching the Bible.
The Anabaptists’ Jesus-centric approach to scripture.

Access the transcript, read the show notes, and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

A few of Keith’s books: Sola Mysterium, Jesus Unbound, and Jesus Undefeated.
Keith’s numerous podcasts: Heretic Happy Hour, Apostates Anonymous, and Second Cup with Keith.
My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming.
Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse.
Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay well in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you!
Support the Flying Free podcast AND get in on monthly deep-dive discussions with podcast guests by joining the Flying Free Podcast Club for a $5 monthly donation HERE. (Members of Flying Free and Flying Higher can join these discussions FREE. Just reach out to me, natalie@flyingfreenow.com, and we'll get you set up!)

Keith Giles is a former pastor who left the pulpit to follow Jesus and started a church 12 years ago with his family that gave away 100% of the offering to the poor in the community. He has authored numerous books, including Sola Mysterium, Jesus Unbound, and Jesus Undefeated. He is also the co-host for the Heretic Happy Hour Podcast. (Their slogan is “Burning Questions, Not People” )

Why We Get Stuck and How to Unstick Ourselves [204] Jan 03, 2023

Show notes

Are you ready to deal with the things you’ve been avoiding and find out how to get unstuck? Joining us today on Flying Free is the incredible speaker, therapist, and author of The Science of Stuck, Britt Frank. Through Britt’s abusive relationship, substance abuse, and spiritual challenges she has learned that mental health is a commitment to reality. In this episode, we discuss why Britt wrote her book, the role of anxiety in our lives, why we have to be distinguished about our language use when talking about anxiety, fear, and worry, and why so many people choose to stay in abusive relationships for the benefits. There’s no such thing as an overreaction, only mismatched reactions, and Britt talks us through how to handle freeze response, manage panic attacks, and acknowledge shadow intelligence to become conscious decision-makers in our lives. Finally, we discuss why forgiveness is not essential to healing. Don’t miss out on this incredibly informative conversation!

Key Points From This Episode:

An overview of Britt’s book and why she wrote it.
The unique summaries, dos and don’ts, and five-minute challenges Britt included at the end of every chapter and why.
Why Britt believes that we need anxiety in order for our lives to work.
The differences between anxiety, fear, and worry, and why we need to identify when we are experiencing them in order to access our choices.
Why the uncomfortable truth is always better than a shiny lie.
The rewards and benefits of staying stuck and why you need to rescue yourself.
An example of one of the five-minute challenges in Britt’s book.
What shadow intelligence is and how we can make our unconscious conscious.
What Britt would say to survivors who have given up and why they are not unmotivated; their brains are stuck in a freeze response.
Why forgiveness is not required to heal trauma and create new brain pathways and why it’s not possible when you are in fight or flight mode.
Emotional adulthood vs. emotional childhood and why your reactions need to be matched to the action and situation.
Britt’s beautiful reframing of panic attacks.

Access the transcript, read the show notes, and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

Britt’s book, which is one of my top three books I read in 2022: The Science of Stuck.
Britt’s website, The Science of Stuck.
My newest book, All the Scary Little Gods, is a spiritual memoir about healing from religious trauma and toxic programming.
Are you wondering what is happening inside your own painful and confusing marriage? I wrote another book just for you called Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage: A Christian Woman’s Guide to Hidden Emotional and Spiritual Abuse.
Flying Free is my online membership program designed for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. Whether you want to stay well in your marriage or leave, we want to equip and support you through this program.
Flying Higher is my online membership program for divorced Christian women. Come rebuild your life after divorce with women just like you!
Support the Flying Free podcast AND get in on monthly deep-dive discussions with podcast guests by joining the Flying Free Podcast Club for a $5 monthly donation HERE. (Members of Flying Free and Flying Higher can join these discussions FREE. Just reach out to me, natalie@flyingfreenow.com, and we'll get you set up!)

Britt Frank, MSW, LSCSW, SEP is a clinician, educator and trauma specialist. She speaks and writes widely about the mental health myths that keep us stuck and stressed. Britt received her BA from Duke University and her MSW from the University of Kansas, where she later became an award winning adjunct professor. She is a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner and Level 3 trained in the Internal Family Systems therapeutic model. Britt was a primary therapist at a drug and alcohol treatment center, an inpatient therapist at a children’s psychiatric hospital, and now owns a private practice. You can find Britt on Instagram or on her website www.scienceofstuck.com.

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