No woman wants to face the horror of her husband’s betrayal. Or have to recover from the emotional, physical & financial trauma and never-ending consequences. But these courageous women DID. And we’ll walk with you, so YOU can too. If you’re experiencing pain, chaos, and isolation due to your husband’s lying, anger, gaslighting, manipulation, infidelity, and/or emotional abuse… If he’s undermined you and condemned you as an angry, codependent, controlling gold-digger… If you think your husband might be an addict or narcissist. Or even if he’s “just” a jerk… If your husband (or ex) is miserable to be around, this podcast is for YOU.
How To Survive a Narcissistic Husband: 5 Tips
Aug 13, 2024
Show notes
A narcissistic husband can make marriage a nightmare. Below you’ll find expert advice for women married to a narcissistic man. If you need support dealing with your narcissistic husband, check out our daily online narcissistic abuse support group. Why Dealing With a Narcissistic Husband Feels So Hard A narcissistic husband doesn’t just behave selfishly. He often: Rewrites events to avoid responsibility Blames you for his behavior Minimizes your concerns Expects emotional access without offering emotional safety Over time, this creates a dynamic where you feel responsible for fixing something you didn’t break. That’s why typical relationship advice often fails. 5 Tips for How To Deal With a Narcissistic Husband If you’re living with a narcissistic spouse, these strategies can help you stay grounded and protect your emotional well-being. 1. Recognize He Is Unlikely to Change One of the most painful realizations is also the most freeing. Knowing that he is who he is can help you make decisions about how you want to protect your peace. To see if he’s using any one of these little known emotional abuse tactics, take my free emotional abuse test. 2. Avoid Arguments That Go Nowhere Arguments with a narcissistic husband are rarely about resolution. He’ll often: Shift topics mid-conversation Turn into personal attacks End with you apologizing Focus on conserving your energy. 3. Have Realistic Expectations Sadly, if he’s incapable of empathy or concern for you, it’s important to expect it. Adjusting your expectations isn’t giving up. It’s seeing clearly. 4. Have Compassion for Yourself Many women blame themselves for staying. But the truth is, there are often complex reasons: Children Finances Fear of escalation Hope things will improve Self-compassion helps you move forward to do what’s right for you without judgment. 5. Invest in Safe, Healthy Relationships A narcissistic husband isn’t emotionally safe. That’s why it’s critical to build connection elsewhere: Trusted friends Support groups, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Online Support Group Women who understand what you’re experiencing Safe relationships remind you what reality actually feels like. “If you choose to stay in proximity to your narcissistic husband, the safest course of action is to keep things very surface level. Talk about the weather, talk about your new lawn mower.” Anne Blythe, M.Ed. – Host of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Transcript: How to Deal With a Narcissistic Husband Anne: I’m so honored to have Dr. Ramani with me on today’s episode, she’s a licensed clinical psychologist. You’ve most likely seen her on YouTube. She’s a professor of psychology at California state university, Los Angeles, and the author of lots of books. One of them, should I stay or should I go is amazing. The link is available on our books page. Later in the episode, I’ll be calling out Dr. Ramani’s five tips for dealing with a narcissistic husband. So stay tuned for when I start calling those out for you. Anne: Dr. Ramani received her ma and PhD degrees in clinical psychology from UCLA, and her research on personality disorders has been funded by the national institutes of health. At BTR, we’re talking a lot about how addiction is abusive to a spouse. What Tools Can A Woman Use To Survive A Narcissistic Husband? Anne: So my first question for you is, while narcissistic behavior patterns seem to be a hallmark of addiction, those who get into and maintain recovery tend to cease those behavior patterns, indicating lasting change is possible, at least for those who choose to do the hard work required to get into and maintain recovery from their addiction. Yet for some, no amount of recovery work seems to bring change on. Maybe they’re not doing it right. Anne: I don’t know, but short of investing years to wait and see, are there indicators that wives can look for to determine if their loved one with narcissistic abuse patterns is capable of change? Dr. Ramani: It’s a great question because when you have something like addiction, tangled up with narcissism, just like if it’s addiction, substance addiction. Survive A Narcissistic Husband: Learn To Recognize Manipulation Dr. Ramani: That’s an entanglement of two patterns. Now, if you had someone, addict for example, but not narcissistic, then those are the clients where, whether it’s 12 step, trauma wor. Ongoing therapy, that’s going to work well. They’re going to commit to whatever they’ve promised to or promised to themselves in terms of their growth, in terms of distancing themselves from these patterns. Dr. Ramani: When you have both patterns present, The addiction and the narcissism, you’re not going to see as much change. You got to remember that the addiction pattern is very much focused on the other patterns. The, the lack of empathy, the entitlement. I have a right to do this, I have a right to five orgasms a day. I need lots of people who tell me I’m attractive like a spoiled child. So, I would then argue that the addict, who also has significant co-morbid symptoms of narcissistic personality, is not going to get much better. What you might be able to do is less time spent on exploitative content. They may be less likely to engage in another infidelity, especially if the stakes are high. For example, an expensive divorce, potential loss of custody of a child, a financial hit, shame in the eyes of their community. So dealing with both a addict and a narcissistic husband is a real double whammy. A Narcissistic Husband Has A Barrier To Treatment Dr. Ramani: But when you have that narcissism, because that tends to be what’s driving the compulsive behavior and the compulsive need for validation, that’s often going to be the reason treatment doesn’t work. So I would view narcissism as the barrier to it working, because there’s very little evidence, other than in the most rare of cases, that narcissistic patterns are amenable to significant change in treatment. And please note the use of my word significant. So a narcissistic husband has a real barrier to treatment. Empathy and Narcissism Dr. Ramani: What you might get is a partner who actually stops cheating, or stops going to other women, or stops going to massage parlors, or stops watching exploitative content. But, they are still un-empathic, they are still entitled, they are still full of rage. So it’s sort of like, choose your poison. Some people might say, okay, the addiction part’s gone, but this is still a really not nice person. That’s where it starts to get complicated. https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco Anne: Was that from Epstein? The quote, the five orgasms a day? Dr. Ramani: Now that you’re saying that, yeah, I guess I read something and he said, I’m a great guy, I’m a hard working guy, king of the world, I have the right to five orgasms a day. I’ve heard that before. Anne: Exactly. Yeah, entitlement. Recognizing Narcissistic Traits Anne: So, is there any way that a woman can see if he has those narcissistic traits while he’s using or does he need to stop using for a little while and then see if it’s related to the it. How can you kind of figure this out while surviving narcissistic abuse? Dr. Ramani: If you’re going to try to determine whether you have a narcissistic husband, then you’re looking for things like, are they non-empathic? Are they entitled, grandiose, superficial, arrogant, prone to rage, or controlling? That’s what you’re looking for. Anne: So what they’re looking for is do they have the ability to empathize with me? Dealing With A Narcissistic Husband: Don’t Cut People Into Parts Anne: Now, when women are looking for that, how can they separate grooming from actual real true empathy, because so many of these men, they seem like they’re very empathic. They can say the right things and do the right things, but that’s just grooming. So what would you say to women who are like, man, he really is empathic and kind and generous. Like my ex, for example, he did the dishes and he helped out with the kids. And he was what I would say amazing person. Then he’d fly off the handle and rage. Over and over again. What would you say to women who are like, well, there is this part of him that is so empathetic. Dr. Ramani: We don’t cut people into parts. It’s holistic. Judging People on Their Abuses Dr. Ramani: What I’m about to say is going to sound incredibly cynical and I apologize for it, but sadly I do judge people on their abuses and not on their virtues. Because you’ve now shown me what’s in your wheelhouse. I have heard the saying hurt people hurt people but that doesn’t qualify me or anyone else to be your punching bag. So the first time somebody goes off into a rage it’s time to go. I mean, it’s that simple and yet it’s that complicated. So no doing the dishes doesn’t obviate going into a rage. The rage always be more important than emptying the dishwasher. We’re 10 years from a robot emptying a dishwasher. Dr. Ramani: The other thing a lot of people confuse is generosity. They’ll say, but he took me to so many nice dinners, and he bought me an airplane ticket, and he took me on a vacation. Any fool can do that. Anyone who has enough money in a bank account, that’s just pulling money. That’s easy. It’s the heavy lifting. It’s how does this person cope under conditions of stress or frustration? Generosity vs. Genuine Care Something at work doesn’t go the way they want, you’re running late, you take a trip with them and things aren’t going right. How does this person handle themselves under those conditions? That kind of stuff shows up in the first four to six weeks of a relationship. If you find yourself making excuses for this person be very careful because those excuses at four to six weeks are the excuses you’ll be writing in 40 years. Anne: I love how you said a robot will be doing the dishes in 10 years when things were really devolving in my relationship right before my ex’s arrest. He said, I just want to connect with you and I said, well, what do you do to connect with me? He said, I mow the lawn. Dr. Ramani: See, there’s all those books out there, the Men from Mars and Women from Venus and the love languages and all that. I’m not a fan because those books run the danger of writing off as an excuse like, well, his love language is doing the lawn. I think doing the lawn is perfectly fine, but only if it’s embedded in a larger framework of empathy, kindness, compassion, respect, mutuality, patience, serenity, and compromise. And you know what? I’ll cut my own lawn if I can have all that other stuff. Co-Parenting with a Narcissist Anne: So talking about co parenting, let’s go that direction for a minute. How do we help the child of a narcissist? When co parenting with a narcissistic individual, what measures can a healthy parent take to reduce the risk of the behavior traits being passed on to the next generation? Raising Healthy Kids with a Narcissistic Co-Parent Dr. Ramani: The one thing that’s most important to note is that it takes one good healthy parent to raise a good healthy kid. We know that. A lot of parents panic thinking, Oh my goodness, I really chose a bad person here. I’m going to pay forever. But what it means is that good, healthy parent now has to do the work, not of two parents, but of three parents. Because you have to do the work of you being a good parent. And then you have to do the work of dodging the bullets of the bad stuff that the unskilled parent is doing and then step into their role. That’s like a third job here. And I tell people that the key is, is to stop waiting for justice, but they should be doing this. They’re the other parent. It’s not fair. No, it’s not fair. And sadly, the only thing that many people can do is look in the mirror and say, I made a lousy choice, but this is not this child’s fault. And so I’ve got to step up. The Role of a Healthy Parent Dr. Ramani: I’ve got to do right and not get caught up in what’s fair, what’s not fair, but to do the heavy lifting of parenting. Which means teaching your child how to tolerate frustration and disappointment, teaching your child empathy, allowing your child’s emotional vocabulary to develop and grow. Never shame them or humiliate them for feeling anything for engaging with them being mindful with them. You have to be everything, you have to be the one that the soccer game, you have to be the one teaching them to wash the dishes. Do their chores and compromise and play nice and all of that. You have to be super person if this is the case if you’re co parenting with a narcissist. I have worked with many clients who had one deeply narcissistic parent and one very loving parent and the loving parent saved them. The only downside to this is if a child grows up with a very narcissistic parent, even if they have that very loving parent. Something I do often see in is that these people grow into rather anxious adults. Parallel Parenting and Exhaustion They still live under the specter of, I’m not good enough, or what could I do to win them over, or the tension or anxiety that a angry parent brought into the home. Even if they had that loving parent, it may not translate into narcissism in that person that when they turn into adult, it may turn into anxiety. Anne: I can’t be super person. So that is a little bit discouraging, but I will try. Anne: I think about that and I’m like, Oh, I parallel parent so that I hold a no contact boundary and that helps. But I still get exhausted. Being a super person is impossible. Dr. Ramani: It is impossible in some ways. It’s also having like those standards of like being the good enough parent, but also also. Validating Children’s Emotions Dr. Ramani: Never gaslight your own kids, and by that I mean, you don’t have to say, well, dad’s your hero, and that’s great. Like, if dad humiliates, for example, that child showing an emotion, then you can say, sweetie, that wasn’t okay. Emotions are wonderful, but some grown ups don’t always understand them. What’s amazing about you as a little person is that you’re actually brave enough to show your emotions. So you don’t have to say, dad’s a jerk who doesn’t even have one emotional bone in his body and is a narcissist. You don’t have to do that. What you can say is that what’s amazing about you is you’re able to do something and actually dad’s not able to do that. And that’s hard for him. Acknowledge it and it’s a struggle as it is, but also that it’s not okay to ever have their emotions shamed. Never let your kids say, Oh, that’s okay. Dad didn’t mean that or that’s just how dad is. Dad did mean it. That’s why dad did it. That doesn’t make it okay. You don’t, again, it’s that fine balancing act of not throwing dad under the bus because that’s not good parenting, but also not signing off on it and saying, that’s just how dad is. Charm, Charisma, and Confidence Anne: So, you refer to charm, charisma, and confidence as the three C’s of narcissism, yet acknowledge not all who possess those are narcissistic. In the early stages of dating, before the traits which comprise the pillars of narcissism begin to reveal themselves, are there other clues to watch for which might indicate whether the three C’s are red flags rather than positive traits? Dr. Ramani: I actually talk about this in the new book and I hinted this and should I stay or should I go? If you can find someone who’s charming, charismatic, and confident, and also empathic, kind, reciprocal, serene and patient and all of those things. You just won the human being lottery is what you did. Because I think that somebody may be very charismatic because they’re telling you a story of what they do for a living or about their life or something like that. Early Red Flags Of A Narcissist You can get so caught up in that story that what we don’t pay attention to is are they listening to other people or are they merely holding court. Acting as sort of like an entertainer rather than as a human being. The fairy tale. I’m not a…
My Husband Says I’m The Problem. Is He Right? – J.R.’s Story
Aug 06, 2024
Show notes
“My husband says I’m the problem, so I went to therapy for years. But things are still bad.” J.R. spent nearly a decade trying to improve herself so her marriage would improve. She didn’t realize she was never the problem in her marriage. To know if you’re the problem, take our free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse. If you are, it’s unlikely you have anything to do with the problems in your marriage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKes84VS8GE Many victims may blame themselves because that’s how a master manipulator will continue to exploit. Convincing her that she’s the problem is part of psychological abuse. Signs You’re Not the Problem You’re not the problem if your husband does any of the following: Uses gaslighting to contort your perception of reality Betrays you, including secret exploitative content use Blames you for his choices Transcript: My Husband Says I Am The Problem, Is He Right? Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her J.R. She’s a mother of four. She spent almost a decade of her life, married to a psychologically abusive man. Welcome J.R. J.R.: Thank you, Anne. I’m so happy to have this opportunity. Anne: You said you attribute your healing to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Do you want to start there, and then we’ll circle back to the beginning? J.R.: In 2020, I discovered the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. To be honest, I was trying to rack my brain to figure out how I found the podcast. I can’t remember, I feel like it’s a God thing for me anyway. I had known about his use throughout our relationship. We had been through a lot regarding his addiction at that point. But I never would have been able to classify it as emotional abuse. I didn’t have the terminology. At that time, we lived in Washington state, and I was driving through gorgeous Oregon countryside, like mountains, just a really beautiful landscape. Listening to episode after episode of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast, and I remember this feeling, like, this is me. I heard a description of what I was going through for the first time. I think in the past I had seen myself as the villain, because hearing some women talk on the BTR podcast. And hearing you Anne talk about safety, gaslighting, and emotional abuse. It became clearer to me that was my situation. Because my husband says I’m the problem. So yes, there was the relief in like, my husband says I’m the problem. But I’m not alone. I finally feel understood. I finally feel seen. When J.R. Discovered The BTR.ORG Podcast, She Still Thought She Was The Problem J.R.: I had no idea what I was going to do, and dreaded that. I wasn’t that far yet. There was a sense of dread. And like, I’m driving right back into this situation. I hear a lot of the women on the podcast talk about their husband’s anger, whether it’s verbal assault or even physical, but with my ex, I didn’t see a lot of those signs, I didn’t see anger. I didn’t see any sort of violence or undertones of agitation. It was so covert. From the beginning of a relationship, my husband gaslit me. And creating this alternate reality for me. My husband says I’m the problem. And I believed him right away. So I was immediately hooked. I feel like maybe he didn’t need to go to another tactic as far as being more aggressive, or maybe that’s just not his flavor of abuse. I’m not sure why. But I didn’t see him as an angry person. I just thought I was the problem. We would get into these fights, but he wasn’t actually fighting back. It was just me basically fighting with a wall, because I knew there was something going on. I knew he was lying to me, but I could never prove it. He just capitalized on that and made me believe I was crazy. So from the beginning, I started therapy and have gone to multiple therapists on and off over the past decade or so looking for what’s wrong with me. How do I change me to make this work? He Took My Honesty, And Used It To His Advantage Anne: Would you define his behavior as like problem solving? He seemed reasonable and that you just had some serious problems that you needed to work through. Had he manipulated you to that point? Is that kind of what I’m hearing? J.R.: Yes, that’s accurate. When you said manipulating, that stirred something in me to remember when we started dating. I have a keen self awareness, and I told him flat out. I’ve struggled with jealousy in the past. And it is something that I am trying to work on and move through, but I just want to be upfront that is a struggle of mine. So I think right there, he took my honesty and used that to his advantage. Anne: So in that way, he weaponized your vulnerability against you, but you were not aware of this at the time. J.R.: Right. I had no clue. Because of my spiritual background and upbringing, I saw him as this tool in my life that God used to bring about sanctification in me. So I just really was like, okay, this person is like a mirror pointing out the things in me that need to change, the ways I need to grow. And I was thankful for that. Anne: Was he using spiritual abuse? So was he like quoting scripture? The effects of spiritual abuse are so intense. J.R.: I think it was mostly coming from my own values and convictions. And what was ingrained in me. I don’t know he was explicit about it, but I think he definitely capitalized on that. He was on staff at our church. So the spiritual abuse, it did come from him, but I would say, trickled down from our pastor. Clergy & Therapists Enable Emotional Abuse, When They Say I’m The Problem J.R.: It seemed like the perfect cocktail that just worked in his favor. Against me to keep me right where he wanted me. Anne: So because you spent so many years in therapy, thinking that it was you that had the problem. Rather than realizing what was going on. What are your thoughts about all that time you spent in therapy now? J.R.: I’ve been able to do a lot of personal work that has made me a better mother, friend and person in general, so I don’t regret it. But when I started, I would not talk to any therapist who wasn’t Christian based. And had a religious, specifically Christian background. That was something important to me. And now when I look for someone to confide in or get advice from, I’m very wary of Christians. This is sad, because I still have a strong faith, and my spiritual journey is important to me. But I lost a lot of trust in the church community and in Christians who are in positions of influence. Because I saw so many that could have helped me, and not only didn’t help me get to safety, but actually very firmly rooted me deeper into the abuse. Anne: Yeah, that’s so hard. Did you experience that layer of spiritual abuse where they blame you by asking you, if you’ve prayed hard enough, or if you have enough faith or submitted? Were you in the type of Christian Church that wanted you to submit to your husband? Was that a thing in your faith? J.R.: Growing up? Not so much. I didn’t grow up in what I would consider complementarian, male led, spiritual atmosphere. I Was Drawn In To Complementarian Views J.R.: Once I met my husband, he swept me away with many of these toxic patriarchal teachings. They used those against me saying I’m the problem in our marriage. Anne: For people unfamiliar with complementarian views, or that paradigm of gender roles, can you talk about that? J.R.: It’s this hierarchical structure that God put in the Bible that puts husbands as heads of their wives, but then in a church structure, it would put men in positions of authority. In many areas, it completely disqualifies women for even holding a leadership or authority position in the church. Anne: When you were first introduced to it, what spoke to you about it? Now with where you are in your life, my guess is that you wouldn’t be drawn to it. Back then, what ideas did you find compelling about it? J.R.: I wasn’t interested when it was first introduced. It was John MacArthur who… Anne: I have no idea who that is. J.R.: Oh, good, bless you. I’m glad you don’t, because it’s terrible. My ex, we were at his Bible college. And we were sitting in an empty room on campus, and watched this sermon. By the end of it, I was just bawling. I had never heard someone be so cruel, ruthless, and just not compassionate at all from the pulpit like that. He talked about women and our roles. And why we’re made the way we’re made. I hadn’t even started my journey of being a wife or motherhood. So I didn’t have personal experience. But I just sat there feeling like if I was a woman who either didn’t want to have children. Maybe I wanted to be married, but didn’t find the right person. Complementarian Influence & Coercion J.R.: Or maybe I was struggling with infertility, hearing this would feel like a slap in the face. That God designed you for these things, and basically apart from these things, you’d don’t have worth. The way he framed it, I wasn’t fulfilling the purpose of my life. I remember crying. I remember resisting, but I loved Jesus. My faith was sincere, very important to me, and between my ex and the pastor. I just felt like they’re using scripture. That’s what it says. I guess that’s what it means. I guess I need to conform to this. And so I did it reluctantly, to be honest. I mean I’d just be asking him about his day and my husband always thinks I’m attacking him. Anne: It’s not like it spoke to you. You’re saying, I resisted it, but I was coerced, maybe? J.R.: A hundred percent. I would use that word, especially now that I’ve done a lot of my own growing and reflecting. Yes. I would say coerced. Because there were instances where I’ve always been involved in things like music, musical theater, and different things. I signed up to audition for The Voice, okay. Anne: Ooh, sing for us now. J. R.: Ah no, no, no. But it was like this fun thing I was going to do with my mom. It was right when I first got married. I remember my husband and pastor at the time, talked at our dinner table in our home. Scripture was used against me. I was told I was being selfish. I was using worldly wisdom instead of seeking godly wisdom, because you’re not singing worship. So why would you even do this? I would be in the secular world. I was basically guilted and shamed out of auditioning. My Husband Says I’m The Problem, So I Had To Give Up My Dreams Anne: Coerced, did your fiancé have a job? J.R.: Fancy that you would mention that. Anne: I just want to bring up the misogyny here, right? Did the pastor say to him, You should not work at this job because it’s in the world. J.R.: That’s the thing. My fiance was the only other staff member on the staff at this church. This upset my family. And it caused a huge argument and rift between me, my parents, and my sister. Because they were like, what are you doing? This is your passion. This is what you want. Why are you not pursuing this? And I pretty much parroted all the scripture back to them. Personally, what I experienced in this complementarianism bubble. I needed to protect my marriage, because I wasn’t my own autonomous person. We were one, but I had to defer to him. So there was no me, there was only him. Because if there’s one and I don’t have a say, well, who’s the one? It’s him. So I parroted all this back to them, and they were concerned. But I was newly married, and I thought, this is my husband. I need to respect him. So I bought into everything my husband and pastor told me. I didn’t like it. But I believed it was what the Bible said. And that was enough for me to be like, okay, I guess this is what I do now. Anne: Are you surprised and shocked to find out that it was psychological abuse? That it wasn’t God, because God created you, and he gave you these amazing talents. Don’t hide your candle under a bushel. So I guess the scriptures only apply to men. Realizing Psychological Abuse Anne: They don’t apply to women, because you’ve got this candle, and they’re telling you to hide it under a bushel. J.R.: Right, until it came to leading worship in the church, which they used me for and didn’t compensate. It was very, yeah, yeah, oh yeah. Honestly, it was until I started listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. It took a long time to use that word and see it for what it is. Anne: Many women love truth and love God. They want to do the right thing so much that they’re willing to sacrifice themselves. I’m like, wow, women are brave, strong and powerful. They’re making these decisions because they’re such courageous, incredible people. There’s nothing about sacrificing everything about yourself that is weak. Then to realize that your husband and pastor coerced you. To unknowingly sacrifice it to wickedness is devastating and heartbreaking. J.R.: They inundated him with this type of theology and doctrines, and fed all that to me. And I was so excited and passionate about Jesus. I wanted to find what is God’s will? And if that’s God’s will, then I’m going to do it. I flipped 180 degrees from what my parents taught me growing up. I grew up around strong women, women who were opinionated, loud. And then I flipped over to, oh, the only good type of Christian woman is a submissive one. I need a quiet spirit. I need to be timid, I need to be meek. And I struggled with that. Because it didn’t resonate with who I felt like I was. Who I felt like God made me to be. But I just latched on and believed that was my role in life, and that I wasn’t good at it. You’re So Good At Being You & He’s The Problem Anne: That breaks my heart, because you’re so good at being you. We’re so good at being ourselves. And that’s who God made us be. So it breaks my heart when women try to contort themselves in this misogynistic view of who they are. What gets lost is God loves us, God loves you. He created you for you, not to be subservient to someone else. That is lost when spiritual abuse comes into play. You’ve talked about how you went to therapy. You talked about how your husband manipulated you to alter the way you viewed yourself and religion to try to survive this situation. Thinking because my husband says I’m the problem, this would make things better. J.R.: It wasn’t until I discovered the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast that I finally realized it didn’t matter what I did. It wasn’t going to “work” because he was the problem. And I was believing for so long that I was the problem. So I really spent so many years adding child after child into this mess, banging my head against the wall. When I was a stay at home mom for the beginning of my children’s lives. I remember just saying things to him. It’s hard to do all the things in a day that you want me to do in the house. Like, make the meal, keep the house clean, do this and that with the kids. And I said, I can’t do it all, but what is one thing that would mean a lot to you? When you come home from work, it’s like, Oh, I’m so thankful that this thing is done. I would ask him things like that, because I knew it wasn’t working. Discovery & My Husband Lies And Says I’m The Problem J.R.: I wanted it to work, and I am convinced I am the problem. Because my husband says I’m the problem. And it was so ingrained in me that divorce is wrong. Divorce is not an option. So I was like, it’s got to work. If it’s not working, I’m not doing the right thing or I’m not trying hard enough, because if I put it on him, then I feel hopeless. If it’s up to him. He’s not willing to change. So then I’m stuck in this horrible marriage forever. It made more sense to take it upon myself, because at least then I had some control. Anne: Did you ever discover infidelity? J.R.: I found exploitative content on his phone and I can remember it so clearly. I was sitting in his car. He had run back into the house to grab something. He came back out to the car, and I was sitting there staring. And I showed it to him. Didn’t even say anything. Just showed it to him, and…
5 Stages: How to Leave a Toxic Relationship When You Have Kids
Jul 30, 2024
Show notes
Are you wondering how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids…maybe even part of you is still hoping things will change…for the kids’ sake. That makes sense. In fact, here’s the five stages most women go through when thinking about leaving a toxic man. THE 5 STAGES OF How to Leave a Toxic Relationship 1. Things Get So Bad That You Wonder If There’s Something Better Sometimes, things have to get really bad before you even start thinking about how to leave a toxic relationship when have kids and you realize things need to change. Maybe something big happens or things just keep getting worse and worse until you can’t ignore it anymore. It’s like waking up one day and realizing, “I can’t do this anymore.” Maybe you even discover he’s emotionally abusive. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. 2. You Start to Do Something About It After you decide you can’t take it anymore, the next step in how to leave a toxic relationship is, to do something about it. This might not fix everything right away, and that’s okay. Trying to do something, even if it’s small, means you’re learning and getting stronger each time. It’s like practicing for a big play, trying different things to see what works best. 3. Commit To Protect Yourself (No Matter What) This step is when you decide to make a big change and stick with it. It could be deciding not to do something for the person hurting you anymore, or maybe even moving away from them. It’s like crossing a bridge and making sure you can’t go back to the way things were before. 4. DEVELOPING NEW Protective Strategies Even after you’ve made the change, it might feel strange for a bit. You’re getting used to a new way of living where you’re in charge. This time is for healing, finding out who you are, and starting to build a happy life. You might pick up new hobbies, make new friends, or work on your career. Little by little, things start to get better. 5. You Can See A Clear Path To The Peaceful Life You Want In the last step, you start to really believe you can have a happy life without being hurt. It feels like seeing the light at the end of a dark tunnel. You think about having a safe home, doing things that make you happy, and being with people who treat you well. This step is all about going from just getting by to living a great life, finding out who you are, and doing things you love. Thinking about a happy life helps you make good choices for yourself as you move away from being hurt. It’s like a light guiding you to a future where you’re happy and safe. Transcript: How To LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Janet. As we describe the processes we went through in determining how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids, listen for how you can protect yourself from his emotional abuse. As you’re listening, if you can’t quite visualize this. There is a map embedded in this transcript below. And you can see that map. I’ll share part of the story of how I discovered The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop Strategies. The strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced. Before I discovered these strategies. I was trying to leave a toxic relationship with kids, becasue my ex-husband, even eight years after divorce, was being emotionally abusive almost daily. He was messaging me all the time. And was counter-parenting. He cancelled my kids’ medical appointments. He was trying to manipulate the situation so my kids wouldn’t take sports, so he didn’t have to pay for it. It was just constant stress and trauma. And I got really, really angry because I was like, I’m so good at boundaries. I was doing everything “right”. And the court wouldn’t help me, and clergy wouldn’t help me. I thought like, is there no way to actually live free from abuse? And people often said things like, well, you got to move on with your life. Why don’t you just get over it? You got divorced eight years ago, they’re thinking the abuse happened eight years ago, and I’m like, it happened today. When he messaged me today, he lied to me, and he tried to undermine my children. So I wondered how to stop emotional abuse from husband? The Communication Trap With Abusive Ex-Partners Anne: Janet before you enrolled in The Living Free Workshop. Can you talk about all the things you tried, in knowing how to leave a toxic relationship with kids? Janet: A lot of us have gone through counseling, marriage therapy, or 12 step for wives of pornography addicts, and most of the time they focus on our communication skills with our husbands or our exes. I felt that I could change the outcome if I could just communicate and explain it in a way that he could understand, treating him like he just didn’t know. We catch him in a lie, in real time, and we have full evidence. And we think if I point out, you just lied to me. He’s going to have an aha moment, own it. Hey, I’m so sorry. I totally just lied to you. And maybe do differently. So if I told him and explained it to him, it would stop. And the opposite happened every single time. In the Living Free Workshop, one lesson talked about when he has access to communication to continue to abuse us. The problem is that communicating with them is a trap. Right in the beginning, when we started to share the kids 50/50 from both of our houses, and things were falling apart at dad’s house. The Temptation To Argue & Communicate With Abusers Janet: And then I would get the kids back, and they would kind of unload all the things that had happened at dad’s house. I call him and say, hey, I can help you. You know, the mornings are chaotic. Can you set a timer? Wake yourself up at six, so you can wake the kids up at six thirty. the lunches pre-made, or teach the kids how to make their own lunches if you’re busy getting ready for work. And I thought it would help. Guess what happened? It just got worse, more chaos. Then he stopped waking the kids up altogether. They were late almost every day to school. If the kids would say anything, their dad would start to cry and say how sorry he was that he is trying his best. This is so hard, he’s working so hard, and he can’t seem to do anything right. His manipulation was so bad, so communication just doesn’t work. Anne: Yeah, and The Living Free Workshop explains why. So I’ll leave that to Living Free, because it does a really good job of explaining why communication doesn’t help. And then what to do. Luckily, the Living Free strategies can protect you from his emotional abuse in knowing how to leave a toxic relationship with kids without communicating anything to him. Strategies for How to Leave a Toxic Relationship With Kids Anne: It will teach you how to do strategic communication. So that if you communicate with him, the communication is protective. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is not a religious organization for many reasons. One of them is that we have clients from all over the world. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery team is interfaith, inter paradigm. We have women from different Christian faiths, other religions, agnostics, and atheists. Everybody is welcome here. I always hesitate to share my own religious experience, because their husband and clergy have spiritually abused so many women. Many women are still experiencing the effects of spiritual abuse. So they find scriptures or scriptural references to be very triggery and I absolutely do not blame them. So for women who find religious things to be a little triggery or for my agnostic or atheist or Muslim friends. If you can bear with me as I talk about deliverance in the context of Christianity, because this is how I discovered the Living Free strategies. If you take The Living Free Workshop, all of it is secular. It’s not in the context of religion, and the principles work, no matter what your religion or paradigm is. If you’re interested in reading more about my study, you can see some of it at the back of the Living Free Workbook. If you’re not interested in learning more about my study, you can just disregard those last few pages. I realized the court could not answer stop the emotional abuse from my husband? Or would not, they probably could, but they refused to do anything to help me. I went to my clergy and said, hey, our church does not tolerate abuse. What are you going to do to not tolerate this? Anne Blythe’s Personal Journey Toward Deliverance From Abuse Anne: They literally just stared at me and blinked their eyes and didn’t know what to do. So I started praying. Everywhere in the scriptures, Christ is the Deliverer. He is the Savior. He delivers people from their enemies, saves people. So I thought, through my Savior, Jesus Christ, I should be able to get delivered. I didn’t have language for it at the time, but I was desperately trying to understand how to leave a toxic relationship and still protect myself and my children. In part of my study, I read a bunch of deliverance books from various religions. And the best story we have of deliverance is Moses delivering the children of Israel out of Egypt. So after studying deliverance for a year and continuing to pray. I decided to take a trip to Egypt. And Jerusalem with the specific intention of studying deliverance. In preparation for the trip. I wrote a bunch of prayers, and I put them on tiny pieces of paper. And while I was there, I prayed at the west wall in Jerusalem and stuck those prayers in the wall. And one of them was that I would be delivered, and then I could help deliver women all over the world. Within six months of returning home from Jerusalem, after implementing the strategies I had discovered. I was delivered and my children were delivered. Without going to court. Anne: I had a legal document written up, and I used strategy to send it to my ex, and he signed it, but there was no court involved. So now they do not have to go with him if they don’t want to. And the parent time schedule is only one weekend a month, from Friday at six to Sunday. The Israelites’ Story As A Metaphor FOR HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH KIDS Anne: With no midweek and only two weeks in the summer. And only two holidays ever, period the whole year, only two holidays. So basically, we get to do whatever we want now. I no longer need to protect myself from from my husband’s emotional abuse. I’m free now. I have this map of the children of Israel delivered, so Janet, you can see this. All right, so when I went to Egypt, I’m going to make up numbers here. But let’s say 500 feet on either side of the Nile is the most luscious, beautiful farmland because the water’s right there. And you can see when it changes from farm land that’s easy to water, bordering the Nile river, to a crazy absolute scary desert. We were on the Nile, and I looked out and it was like green and then like sand. So, if you look at a map of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Israel at that time. Where the children of Israel were captive by Pharaoh. They were actually in the Nile delta, where there was a good farmland, lots of water. They weren’t living in a hole. And they’ve been there for hundreds of years. They were born there. So the Israelites at that time didn’t know anything else. They had never been to the promised land. They knew nothing about it. So even though they were enslaved and oppressed, it’s the only thing they’d ever known. So when Moses is commanded to deliver the Israelites. They ask Pharaoh to let them go. And he says, no. So then God sends frogs and fire from the sky and turns the Nile into blood. All of those plagues. STAGE 1: Things Get So Bad That You Wonder If There’s Something Better Anne: Now everyone sees this as God’s way of forcing Pharaoh to let them go. But I actually think. It was for the Israelites. Because when these things happened to Pharaoh, when the Nile turned to blood and all the frogs and the fire from the sky. It wasn’t just happening to Pharaoh. It was also happening to the Israelites. So even though it’s the only thing they’ve ever known. It got so bad. They started thinking. Maybe there’s something better. So for all abuse victims, this is stage one. When things get so bad, you start wondering. If there’s something better out there. STAGE 2:You Start To Do Something About It The second stage, I’ll talk about in a story of Moses in just a minute, is you start to do something about it. Now many women are trying to figure out what’s going on. They start to try to find out how to leave a toxic relationship with kids. They’re resisting the abuse by getting help. So many women will try pornography addiction, recovery or couple therapy. Janet. What did you try during this stage? How To Leave A Toxic Relationship Janet: I tried anger management, sex addiction therapy, CSAT, couples therapy. All of the above. Anne: Yeah, because that’s what everyone tells us to do. We don’t understand it’s abuse, we try to get help for betrayal trauma in marriage. We go for help. In the case of the Israelites. Moses starts by trying to negotiate with Pharaoh. I wonder if some Israelites wondered if they could maybe strike a deal with Pharaoh, where they had to work a little bit less. Where they got a little more food. The land, there is goodness there. How To Leave A Toxic RElationship With Kids: Overcoming Fear Janet: This is the man that I built a family with, I love him. He isn’t horrible a hundred percent of the time, because I’m still in the fog of the abuse. So I haven’t even gotten the chance to feel relief enough to realize how much abuse is going on. Anne: Right, at this point, the Israelites like legit might think more about the frogs, the fire from the sky, and the blood of the Nile. Than they are about Pharaoh’s oppression. Thinking that some of it is good. Not realizing that the good was also bad. It was grooming to keep them stuck, to keep them oppressed. The Living Free Workshop explains this really well. So finally, after all these plagues, Pharaoh was like, fine. I think we underestimate how difficult it was. For an entire group of people to pack up and leave. They’re going out into the desert, they’ve never left before. They don’t know anything else. So I imagine them getting out their carts. And putting everything they own in these carts. And I’m wondering if Pharaoh’s like, hold on no, no, no. You can’t take all those animals. You can’t take this cart. So there’s this period of time of figuring out who’s going to take what. And finally, they can actually move out. And they’re making their way out of Egypt. Now, if you look at a map, you’ll notice that the Jerusalem is up near where the delta is of the Nile,. And they could’ve just walked across the top of the Sinai peninsula instead of going south. Navigating The Exodus: A Journey Of Survival Anne: Assuming they’re led by God, he wants them to go this very hard way. That has a massive body of water in between Egypt and the Sinai peninsula. What are they going to do? Like build boats, you know? When I was there, I was like, what in the world? Why wouldn’t you just walk from point A to point B? That does not have a giant body of water. In between. But instead, they go south to the Red Sea. And they get stuck. By this time, Pharaoh has changed his mind. He sent his armies after them. They can’t go forward. Or they’ll drown. And maybe some of them wanted to go back, but chances are, if they did go back, Pharaoh would take it up a notch and oppress them so that they could not escape again. And a miracle occurs. Moses parts, the red sea. Aside from the absolute awe of being completely blown away by this incredible miracle. Let’s think about the practicalities of this situation. The Red Sea was not parted until this point. Water had covered the bottom of the red sea for thousands of years. There’s no well-worn path at the bottom of the red sea. So, if you start down this path, you’re…
Surviving Narcissistic Abuse – Diane’s Story
Jul 23, 2024
Show notes
As Diane shares her devastating story of surviving narcissistic abuse. She empowers women to become educated about abuse and trauma and start seeking safety. If you need support check out our Group Support Schedule. He just became increasingly mean to me, to the point where I thought something was seriously wrong with me. I started going to a therapist because I thought, ‘What is wrong with me? I am nothing.’ Every day, he found something wrong with me. He would tell me how horrible I was, just horrible things. Diane, victim of narcissistic abuse Transcript: Surviving Narcissistic Abuse Anne: I randomly met an old friend from college. I was so excited to see her. And I learned that she had been surviving narcissistic abuse, the same thing that all of us who listen to this podcast have been through. I’m going to call her Diane. I said, don’t tell me anything, come on the podcast. So I have not heard the whole story yet. Welcome Diane. Diane: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here with you. Diane’s College Years & First Marriage Anne: So in college, you had a one-year-old daughter. And you married, and then you divorced. Diane: Yes, well, she’s 23 now. Yeah, right after I graduated from college, I had another child, and then we divorced. Anne: And when you divorced, you didn’t know why the divorce was happening. And then, because you didn’t understand who he really was. You ended up remarrying him. Diane: I remarried him because he returned to me, and then we were together for another 17 years. And in the last two years, I found everything. So for that entire 17 year period, he was a sex addict, and he had multiple things going on. Surviving Narcissistic Abuse With First Divorce Anne: Let’s talk about the first divorce. What did you think was the cause? Diane: What’s so hard about all this is, I thought it was me. And for so many years, I thought it was me and needed to be better, and I wasn’t enough and was always trying. And now going through all the things, that’s why I saw you and I was like, I’m so happy. I wish I had found your podcasts and your website a year ago, because it’s been this journey of hardship for a long time just surviving narcissistic husband. But that first time he actually had an affair, but I didn’t know that, so I just thought it was me. And so then when he came back to me, I was like, “Oh I’m changed, I’m better”. I’m good. https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco Anne: So he says I’m leaving you. I’m just not happy in this marriage. You’re not good enough, and he takes off. Meanwhile, he lies to you, manipulates you and abuses you. Because the things he’s telling you aren’t true. And he’s putting you down on purpose to hide his own stuff. You don’t know any of this. Two years after the divorce, he returns and says I messed up. You are amazing. Remarriage & Continued Struggles Surviving Narcissistic Abuse Diane: And honestly, now I look at it and it was like love bombing. Totally like I love you, you’re the best thing that ever happened to me. I want to be a good dad to our kids. And so of course I was like, yes, I want to save my family. I want him to be the dad, he can be in my kids lives. So I thought, Oh yes, he’s changed. I’ve changed. We’ve grown up a little bit. So then we got back together, and we had two more kids. Throughout this time, it was always that word line of, I need to be better. If I was thinner, if I’m cleaner, then he’ll be happy. And so I look at it now, and I’m like, what was wrong with me? But I was in this cycle of trying to make him happy, while giving more and more. And taking less and less from him. Anne: So not knowing the details of your story. There’s the abuse that everybody recognizes as abuse, physical violence. And then there’s the abuse hidden: the narcissistic abuse, lying. Was it covert narcissist traits, physical violence? What types of abuse were showing up? Surviving Narcissistic Abuse & Realizing The Truth Diane: He was never physically abusive to me. But he would get in my face and make me feel like, why is the house so messy? Belittle me in front of our kids, and I look at it now, and I’m like, how did I not know? It’s crazy to me. Anne: Well, you didn’t know because he was lying to you and hiding everything. You were resisting abuse the entire time. Doing everything you could to try and resolve it. Surviving narcissistic abuse is no small feat. You’re crazy smart. Diane: Well, I would think so, right? I have two master’s degrees. I should be smart enough to see this, but you don’t. And that’s one thing I really, whenever I talk to people, I’m like, you don’t realize because they’re master manipulators. He makes the world fit his needs. And I was totally okay with that. I just went along with it. The Second Divorce Diane: My ex is military, we had moved to a new duty station. And, I thought, oh good, this is our starting over, we’re gonna renew, we’re gonna be a better family. And at that point he started dating somebody else. So he just became increasingly mean to me to the point where I thought something was seriously wrong with me. I started going to a therapist at that point, because I’m like what is wrong with me? I am nothing, and every day he found something wrong with me. He would tell me how horrible I was, just horrible things. And it wasn’t until my daughter, who the daughter we talked about, she looked at me and she said, “Mom, is Dad having an affair?” Then I started looking and then that’s when I found out. When I first found out, he told me it was an emotional affair because I looked at the text messages and I found text messages. So he told me there was nothing physical. So then I thought, okay, well, I’m going to be better. I’m going to love him better. And then about a month later, I found he had been using a different app. There was a text from the girl who said, “I haven’t woken up next to you. I can’t wait till we do it again.” Narcissism & Trauma Anne: How did you find out about the additional abuse and betrayal from the whole 17 years? You are not alone in finding out you’ve been betrayed. Did it just start coming out, or was it something that you started piecing together, that you had been surviving narcissistic abuse? Diane: Both actually. I just became super detective, like looking through emails, looking through everything. And I started to see this pattern of things where he’s been on these sites. But I had never believed that was happening, I guess. And then I found that he’d been on dating sites. He’s military. So every time he was away from me, he was dating, he was sleeping with other people. So I confronted him. And then the world fell apart. Because he was going to be better, he was going to love me, blah, blah, blah. I fell apart for a while. At one point, he was for lack of a better term, verbal diarrhea, everything. I still think there’s probably stuff I don’t know, which I’m good not knowing. But definitely from their first divorce until this divorce, he had been with multiple partners, multiple people. Doing whatever he wanted to do. When you said “I fell apart.” What did you mean by that? I’ll tell you what I did. I sat on the couch. And I ate buckets of popcorn. I watched a ton of Netflix. I watched every episode of every season of the good wife. Which, by the way, is the perfect show to watch when you’re going through this. Also, I gained weight. What did your falling apart look like? The Impact Of Trauma Diane: Actually, I went the other way. I did not eat for probably four months. Like I lost 30 pounds. I again internalized that it was me. That abuse had been such a cycle. I’m not enough, so I’ll be better. I’ll show him how much better I am. I’ll show him that I’m better than anybody else, he would choose kind of thing. On top of all this. So there’s one extra component there. I found out my mom had a brain tumor three days after I found out the full affair he’d been having this time. My whole world exploded. I could not sleep. And couldn’t eat. I would just be like, Oh, I need to do this better. And I need to do that better. I did not read a book for like six months. And for me, that was crazy. You know, I’d get two sentences and it’s a cycle again. And so, it was hard. Anne: That’s not crazy. There is this myth that marriage is supposed to be hard, and I just don’t think that true. That’s totally normal. Diane and I graduated in English teaching. We’re both readers and writers, and the same thing happened to me. I could not read for a long time. I’d try, but I just couldn’t do it. I was like, if anyone is like me. They’re not going to be able to read articles I write when they are surviving narcissistic abuse. But they can listen. So that’s why I started a podcast. Diane: You’re so brilliant. That was exactly what is necessary. Anne: So yeah, you’re losing weight, you can’t read. What happened with your mom? Surviving Narcissistic Abuse After Mom Died Diane: So my mom actually passed away. So this all came out March 3rd, and my mom died May 2nd. It was just trauma on trauma on trauma. This is my least favorite story to tell. I have to tell you. So my ex was careful. He didn’t want anyone to know about what he’d been doing. One of the reasons is he’s military, but he was also very manipulative. If you go through narcissistic betrayals, he obviously wanted everyone to believe how good he was, who he was. So he came to my mom’s funeral and acted all the part, loving and everything else. And then literally we buried my mom. It had been two hours. He came to my house. And asked if we could discuss the terms of our divorce. Okay. In front of my children, two hours after I buried my mom. That one was the icing on the cake. I was like, no. As much as I am hurt, this is my boundary. You need to leave. Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry. That is awful. All of that is awful. Time and time again, women come on the podcast and share their stories. They’re like nightmares, horrifying, like the jaws of hell were gaping after you. And it feels like there is just no way to help wives or children of narcissists. Diane: So, so much. That phrase came into my mind many times. Anne: Mine too. I just felt like hell was trying to swallow me whole. And I was just like holding on by like a piece of dental floss. Diane: So true. Any amount of just staying alive every single day, just making it through. Anne: I’m so sorry about your mom. I’m so sorry. Be Patient With Yourself Diane: I’ve said many times, the divorce was fine. Just losing my mom was so difficult at this time. If you lose your spouse, you know, you lose a marriage. Usually you have your mom to go to, or vice versa. You lose your mom. Usually you have somebody to depend on. And I kind of felt like everything was gone all in one. I’ve learned so much in this year. I tell people all the time, and people come to me and they’re like, everybody has a story. We all have these traumas, and I just say be patient with yourself. How many times I’m like, I just want to feel better. I want to be better today. Just be patient with yourself and be kind to yourself, because it’s going to take a while. Anne: Yes, of course, like take as much time as you need. We all need a rest, right? Realizations & Clarity Anne: When did you start realizing it wasn’t you? When did you start thinking? Wait a minute. He’s been an abuser the entire time. Diane: I think when I really did is when my mom was sick. So my mom, she had the brain tumor, but what happened is called carcino motor meningitis. She had cancerous meningitis. So she was fine on April 1st and she passed away May 2nd. So it was like four weeks really fast. And so I had come back home. I was trying to help. It was still about him. I’m going through this trauma and all of this, and he was still trying to protect his image. And at that point I was like, wait a second. Yeah, this isn’t me, you know, and it wasn’t about my kids losing their grandma. He had to protect himself from anybody thinking badly of him. And so that was my first indication, but it took me a long time to really just go, wait, I have worth. I’m okay with who I am. And he’s been trying to destroy me for so long, but I’m not going to lie. Even like some days I just still feel like. Wait, what’s wrong with me? And I’m like, wait, no, that’s manipulation. I need to stop and be okay. I’m okay. Anne: Yeah, how would you describe your clarity now after a year’s gone by? Diane: My ex is with his girlfriend that he left me for And I think about it. Manipulations Continue Diane: I’m like, I just want to grab her and be like listen, this is gonna happen. This is what he’s doing, he’s love bombing you. He’s gaslighting you. He’s gonna use you till there’s nothing left. And then I have to step back and be like, that’s my clarity. I can see that, but there’s no way she could see that. And she would just say, Oh, she’s some crazy ex wife trying to form me here. But I can see that for me and I can see it for my kids. And that’s what’s so hard, because he still does it to my kids. He manipulates them. And so I just have to step back and be like, they’ll have to realize it for themselves. That they are experiencing narcissistic abuse. But it still hurts. It still hurts. Like I can see it, it is clear. But there are still those elements that sometimes it still affects me and bugs me. But I’m happy that I am where I am now Effects On Children Anne: So your oldest daughter, she was the one that tipped you off and said maybe dad’s having an affair. How does she feel about it? Diane: We actually just moved out of state. She is also trying to escape the cycle, because she’s finally realized. But the reason she saw it is because she saw how changed he was. Because she’d grown up with this dad who was so genuinely interested in her, and then suddenly, she didn’t mean anything to him either. She wasn’t enough. And so he started to change on her. And so she wondered why, and now she’s not part of the supply because she doesn’t believe any of his lies anymore. So he is just mean to her. And so she wanted to escape where we were. That’s why she moved out of state. Cause she wants to be away. It’s totally affected her, because she questions her worth, but she knows she’s good, but she still loves her dad. And that’s what’s so hard is he’s still my children’s father and they want a dad. I mean, that’s the weird thing we’re working through right now too. Anne: What the kids mean to him is they make him look good. They make him look good at church. When he goes to the grocery store, everybody smiles and says, Oh, you must be such a good dad. When the kids don’t mean anything outside of himself, and they are surviving narcissistic abuse too. The Aftermath & Healing Diane: Exactly, that’s exactly right. My older kids can see that. So my eldest is 23 and then my next daughter is 20. And then I have a son who’s 16 and a daughter who’s 12. My 12 year old is still in it, but my older kids can see that. They kind of accepted that fate. So hard, I needed somebody who had been there. And that’s why I was like, I wish I had your site because I would have loved it. One thing that I tell people all the time is when you have trauma, it’s like breaking the glass. Those little pieces of glass go into every other memory. You’ll see a Coke can, and suddenly you have this trauma memory. So, understanding that the trauma we face is like PTSD. There are parts of us so broken. It’s not just like fixing this one little memory. There are so many memories. There are so many pieces of glass embedded somewhere else. You have to go through this. Anne: Yeah, that’s a really good example about the glass and how traumatized we feel. And I also wish that you would’ve found Betrayal Trauma Recovery earlier. Cause then maybe we would have connected sooner. But at least we have each other now. The Importance Of Support Systems While Surviving Narcissistic Abuse Anne: Are you still teaching? Diane: I am teaching…
Healing From Emotional Abuse Quickly Depends on These 3 Things
Jul 16, 2024
Show notes
Three factors determine how long does it take to heal from emotional abuse. If your husband betrayed you, here are the strategies to speed up the healing process so you can feel peace again. 1. Has His Emotional Abuse Stopped? The first factor that affects how long it will take to heal from emotional abuse is to ensure that the emotional abuse has stopped. Emotional abuse includes various behaviors that come out of his exploitative privilege. If he thinks his “needs” and “rights” are more important than yours, chances are he’s emotionally abusive. Is he currently doing any of the following? Lying Blaming you for things that aren’t your fault Stonewalling Criticizing Gaslighting Using pornography / infidelity If the emotional abuse is currently happening, whether you’re still married, separated, or divorced, if his emotional abuse hasn’t stopped or you haven’t put enough distance between you and his abuse, your healing from it can’t begin. To determine if the emotional abuse has stopped, take our free emotional abuse quiz. 2. Have You Learned How to Separate Yourself From His Emotional Abuse? Healing from emotional abuse takes as long as you learn how to separate yourself from the abuse. If you have the right information, healing time can be significantly reduced. The good news is, you’re strong and capable. The only thing holding you back has been having the correct framework for what’s been happening to you. It’s not your fault. No one teaches the public how to separate from emotional abuse. The other good news is, you’ve come to the right place. Betrayal Trauma Recovery specializes in teaching women how to recognize emotional abuse and exactly what to do if you’re experiencing it. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop teaches victims of abuse exactly what’s going on and exactly what to do to make her way to emotional safety. It also includes 13 incredibly healing meditations. 3. Do You Have the Appropriate Support to Heal from His Emotional Abuse? Healing from his emotional abuse takes time, but the duration of the healing process can be significantly reduced when you have appropriate support. Appropriate support comes from women who have experienced their husband’s emotional abuse and developed emotional safety. It’s validating and empowering. You’ll heal faster if the support doesn’t blame you for any abuse or suggests you somehow caused it or enabled it. Betrayal Trauma Support Group, a daily support for women who want to heal from emotional abuse, is the safest place to both learn about and heal from emotional abuse. On the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, emotional abuse expert Anne Blythe shared her insights on how she developed specific strategies to heal from emotional abuse as quickly as possible. How to Recover from Emotional Abuse: The Evolution of My Workshop Let me give you some background about the origins of my workshop. I had been divorced, and he was still emotionally and psychologically abusive, like post-divorce for eight years. My life was very difficult. Every day. I lost a big court case to him. He got more custody. I mean, things were just hard. He was counter parenting. He was cancelling my kids’ medical appointments. Anne: Many of you have listened to the podcast for a long time, you’ll know my ex wasn’t paying half of what he was supposed to pay from the divorce decree. He justified it through constantly undermining me and our children. Emotional Abuse Post-Divorce So those of you who are married, when we were married, he was difficult the whole time, but I didn’t realize it. I thought back then that boundaries meant telling him clearly how upset I was with his behavior. Also, maybe giving him an hour long lecture, which didn’t help me be safer. He never changed his behavior. We’d go to a lot of therapy. We’d do a lot of addiction recovery stuff, so that didn’t help. As I started BTR, I started thinking, how do we really get to safety? What is the path? Anytime any woman experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, if her husband uses exploitative material or if he’s having affairs. If you try to go the therapy route or the addiction recovery route. Why This Workshop Helps Heal Emotional Abuse Over the years, dealing with thousands of women who come to BTR, and just my experience helping people, that doesn’t tend to get us to safety. In fact, we end up being more and more unsafe. Especially because we’ve been vulnerable with someone who’s just weaponizing our emotions against us. As I’ve been the executive director at BTR for eight years, I’ve been podcasting forever. I thought, we need clear action steps. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop has examples of men who will have the same facial expressions that your husband is giving you. So you can actually see the concepts and process them a little better. I worked with women over two years personally writing their messages, helping them so that we could see does this work? Yes, it does. I know it works. Any effort we take to get to safety is awesome. We could resist it in ways that are effective. We can resist it in ways that aren’t effective, but resistance in and of itself is great. Testing and Proving How To Heal Emotional Abuse As we try to think, how can I resist abuse more effectively? That’s where strategies come into play. In the upcoming months, I’m going to have the women I helped write their messages on the podcast, so that you can listen to their stories and the experiences they had. It was an incredible time to be with them on their journey to safety. The messages they received were traumatizing. I sort of got secondary trauma from being like, wow, how are we going to get you to safety? So it was through their help that we developed this, and so many women are so brave to experiment to try new things. Effective Resistance Against Emotional Abuse They tried everything. The therapist had told them they had tried everything that clergy had told them, and there wasn’t anything else to try. This is that. It’s totally different than anything else, because it’s strategic. I, along with my kids, achieved complete liberation from my ex outside of court, proving it works better than anything else. The other issue is that whenever any woman starts to make her way to safety, the abuser will not like it. https://youtu.be/VZx2WaCVvQg No matter what type of strategy you use to resist abuse, the abuse will escalate slightly. The only way it doesn’t escalate is if you’re not actually getting to safety. If he feels like, oh, this is the same thing, I’m still able to exploit her, then it’s not going to escalate that much because you’re not actually getting safe. He’s still actually just exploiting you. So for many women who think he’s not so bad, he’s good, and then they keep having things happen over and over, and then we start using the Betrayal Trauam Recovery Workshop strategies. Abuser’s Reaction When You Start Healing From Emotional Abuse They see a bit of escalation, like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I actually can’t exploit her anymore. The women feel better because they’re actually getting to safety. It is a delicate dance at that point to continue to use those safety strategies through that phase until he finally is like, oh, I’m never going to exploit her again. These strategies are effective while you’re in a marriage. They are effective after divorce. They are effective if you are separated, and the good news is they’re all in line with just general good person principles. So they’re kind, I want to put kind in quotes. They don’t involve violence. They don’t involve behavior that society would frown upon. It’s all upstanding behavior. If you have in writing or if they recorded it or somehow documented it, you would look great in court. Applying the Strategies Across Different Situations So that’s also really cool. I so appreciate your patience. So many of you have been waiting for this. I just wanted to get it right and so that’s why it took so long. It matters to me that they are tested, that they are proven. It mattered to me that they would actually work. I know the principles are correct and true principles. My job is to educate you in a way that makes sense. And then there’s the second part, which is application. The application always gets tricky, because it might be different for everyone in their own situation. Application with any principle is an experiment. As you enroll in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, you’ll have a base understanding of these safety strategies, keep in mind that the way you apply it will make a difference. If you’re having trouble applying it in a way that’s working, then please schedule a session with one of our coaches. Educating and Applying Workshop Principles Coach Jen is specifically trained to help women with messages, and then any of the coaches can help with the workshop strategies and in BTR.ORG Individual Sessions. If you have enrolled in the workshop and would like to come on the podcast to share your experience, or if you enroll and have questions, you want to talk to me about it. I would love to talk to you about it on the podcast, so that we can keep an open discussion about how to apply it and learn as a group as you guys start applying this stuff. So please email my assistant at podcast@btr.org if you’d like to talk about it on air with other people, and I can answer your questions. We can talk about your specific situation, enroll, and then email her at a podcast at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and then we can talk on air, and that will help everybody. Anne’s Journey from Emotional Abuse Crisis to Expertise You can go to btr.org/workshop to get more information, and I cannot wait for you guys to enroll. You’ll love it. I also want to talk about social media. When I started BTR, I was crying in my basement. I just felt so much pain, and I was so scared and worried. In the process of the last eight years, I’ve become an expert on emotional abuse through reading and studying, but also experimenting and applying the principles to my own life, delivering myself and my kids from the abuse. It’s been so fun to help the other women with their messages. I decided, okay, I’m going to be the one that does the social media videos and start posting. It’s hard. I don’t want to post about what I ate for breakfast. The Mission to Reach Women Who Need Help Healing From Emotional Abuse That just doesn’t interest me. I don’t want to share stuff I’m doing personally in my life, apparently besides the most personal parts, haha. This is serious stuff, I want to reach women who need help. That’s what I’ve always wanted to do for eight years. It is my personal mission to ensure that every woman who cannot figure out what’s going on, who is praying, who is concerned, who is thinking, what therapist do I go to or what program can I get for my husband. How can I heal my marriage, so they get correct information about what’s actually going on? My heart is heavy. Thinking about all the incorrect information floating around about emotional and psychological abuse. Especially coercion, especially in the addiction recovery community and couple therapy community, and how they approach this in a way that they just do not recognize the abuse. Challenges in Addressing Emotional Abuse (10:52): So I’m on social media doing these videos. If you’re on social media and wouldn’t mind following and sharing the stuff, I would appreciate it. If not, that makes sense. Social media stresses me out. It’s a little scary, but it has been an awesome opportunity to interact with women all over the world and hear their stories. It’s very humbling to know that there are so many women who need help. I’m grateful that you found BTR. I’m grateful when any woman shares the message of truth about abuse, about how abusive exploitative materials use in a marriage is, so that we collectively reduce the suffering of women throughout the world. I would love to save marriages, and make families whole. I used to refer to some men’s programs for abusers. In seeing the aftermath, they weren’t solving that root cause of his abuse, and in so many cases, the men were weaponizing the stuff they learned in these programs. Anne’s Reflection on How Men’s Programs Don’t Stop The Emotional Abuse (12:00): You’ll see that if a man wants to change, this is what he’ll do, and you can see it in the workshop clearly. He will of his own free take action after eight years of witnessing women and talking to them about how it went in this men’s program? How did it go in this type of therapy? How did it go? Usually at first, they think it’s great. Usually at first they’re like, oh, it worked well. And then I talked to him a year later, and they’re like, oh, my word. I didn’t know he was still lying to me. The therapist said I could trust him and I couldn’t, or in some cases he did a polygraph and passed the polygraph, but they still felt uncomfortable. Then later found out that he lied well because he passed the polygraph, but he was still lying. Women’s emotional and psychological safety is my absolute top priority. Disillusionment with Men’s Recovery Programs (12:56): I just don’t recommend men’s programs anymore. It’s just not something that I think a victim of abuse should ever even consider. Rather than think about how I can help my husband be a better person, I need to focus on their emotional, psychological, and sexual safety. Hopefully, due to her safety, she can observe from a safe distance, and he will realize as he wants to change. That’s the only route, I wish there was another one. I tried to figure it out for a few years, I did., I thought, can a program do this? I tested it out. It didn’t, and I feel bad about that, but probably all of you were curious too, right? Marriage vs. Pre-Marriage Counseling Discrepancies (13:52): All of us were. If I could go back in time, I was hoping so much for a program to save my family, and now I don’t think that ever would’ve existed. The hope is, I hope he figures it out, because when it comes to these behaviors, like, don’t lie to your wife, is pretty low bar. It drives me crazy when people are like, oh, well, you’ve just set the bar too high. All men use exploitative material, and if you want to be in a marriage, then you have to deal with abuse. I don’t think that’s the case. I don’t think all men are abusive. It’s not too high of a bar to expect your husband doesn’t lie to your face. I don’t think it’s too high of a bar that you expect your husband genuinely cares about you, and that he’s not just manipulating you to exploit you. Programs for Emotional Abusers Don’t Work I mean, that’s the lowest bar to think that these men haven’t heard it somewhere before, like church or therapy or their work harassment training. Really, do we think these men are that ignorant, and if they are, you see the concern there? I’ve been thinking a lot about how, at least in my faith, they would be like, okay, if he doesn’t treat you well, if he lies to you, if he uses, do not date him anymore. Break up. But if you are in a marriage, then they don’t give the same advice. They’re like, well, he’s a good guy and he’s trying to get help, or he’s going to get better. I’m wondering why the difference in counsel between pre-marriage and after marriage is mind boggling to me. Before you’re married, does this guy know that lying is wrong? They’d be like, well, if he doesn’t know it’s wrong, or if he knows it’s wrong and does it anyway, you should not date him anymore. Dealing with Abusive Behavior Without External Programs But after marriage, oh, he didn’t learn that anywhere. No one’s ever told him that lying is bad, so he needs to go to a program that’s just not true. He knows, and he’s choosing to do it to exploit you. These issues are complex. They are long-term. I feel like the strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop accurately describe what’s happening, and will give yo…
Our online group sessions eliminate the need for extra time to travel, park, extra money for gas or child care, or lengthy appointments or round-trip drive times.
You can attend a session from your bedroom, garage, or closet – whatever works best for your situation.
3. Do the support group professionals understand the true cause of betrayal trauma?
If you don’t know the cause of betrayal trauma, it’s impossible to heal. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches validate victims’ experiences and help women give language to their experiences.
One woman said, “After years of therapy, I was hopeless. Nothing was improving my marriage. My husband was using and lying to me.
“Then I discovered The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. It was a revelation. I began attending Betrayal Trauma Group Sessions soon after that. So the Group Sessions opened my eyes. I wasn’t alone! I’ve felt seen when I couldn’t see myself. I felt heard and empowered. I finally started to make progress toward emotional safety and healing.”
4. Is the betrayal trauma support group safe?
Because victims of abuse and betrayal deserve a comfortable and compassionate space to work through the difficult emotions and memories that accompany trauma.
Betrayal Trauma Support Group Sessions have logical, safe guidelines, crafted carefully from years of experience dealing with betrayal trauma victims. Our Support Group ensures women feel protected and safe as they participate.
5. Does the betrayal trauma support group provide accurate, high quality resources?
In addition to the betrayal trauma support group, Betrayal Trauma Recovery has:
The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop will teach you thought, boundary, communication, and message strategies to begin to make your way to emotional, and psychological safety. It also includes 13 meditations to heal you without having to make any effort. Victims of betrayal are often overwhelmed and stressed. Some aren’t able to even get out of bed some days. Feeling peace is almost impossible when you feel like your entire world is falling apart. These meditations in the workshop were written specifically for women who need immediate peace and healing.
Transcript: Women Share How They Found The Best Betrayal Trauma Support Group
Betrayal Trauma Victim #1: Even though my husband had been unfaithful and had a problem with viewing exploitative content. Therapists looked at our issues as a “couple problem.” The multiple therapists we saw had years of experience, but they knew nothing whatsoever about betrayal trauma, integrity issues or addiction, or the emotional abuse involved.
In fact, my husband was able to successfully gaslight one therapist to the point where he told me that if I would become a, quote, safe person, my husband would quit lying to me. I bet you can guess the result
Yep, my husband lied to me again, and again, and again. It was never about me. So when I finally found BTR, my husband and I had spent over 10 years and 10,000 in and out of couples counseling. Thankfully, everything turned almost on a dime the day I read an article on gaslighting from BTR. This was one of the biggest aha moments of my entire life. It was almost as if I could hear the angel singing in the background as 26 painful years of fog began to lift.
I immediately set up a coaching appointment with one of the BTR coaches and for the first time ever found someone who got it immediately. It’s the best support for betrayal trauma. I didn’t have to convince her, educate her, or prove a thing. She knew exactly what I was going through because she had been there, too. After years and years and thousands of dollars spent on traditional therapy, I finally found someone who understood exactly what I was going through, named it, educated me, and provided the support and contagious courage needed to become empowered to stop the abuse
Why Should I Attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Group Sessions?
Betrayal Trauma Victim #2: I remember the day that I first found BTR.
I was sitting on my back porch listening that day, desperately seeking some kind of help for my soul. I listened to Anne calling Betrayal what it really is, and acknowledging the pain and trauma that it really causes to us women. That podcast changed my life. I burst into tears of healing, validation.
Finally, someone was calling exploitative content use as betrayal. The harm that it actually is. Someone was seeing how abusive it is. Finally, someone had put together all the pieces of the puzzle and so many things finally began to make sense. It was my first moment of validation and clarity. Anne set me on my path of strength and healing right that moment because she was brave enough to share her own strength and healing.
BTR group is the most healing place a woman can possibly be after experiencing betrayal of any sort. It’s a safe, sacred, and healing space. The abuse informed and trained coaches are amazing, loving and wise, and they all remind us there is healing to be found as you navigate through this experience of betrayal trauma.
I just want to give a beg forever thank you to Anne, the Betrayal Trauma Coaches, and to BTR.
This Betrayal Trauma Support Group Changed My Life
Betrayal Trauma Victim #3: I’m very thankful for BTR. I feel that God led me to the website when I watched my first video
on exploitative content and betrayal trauma in relationships. I am a firm believer that this is infidelity. BTR group sessions have been so instrumental in my life. I’ve been going the last four months. I can get on every day and feel immediate. Love and support and validation from the coaches .
I just can’t thank the coaches and Ann and BTR enough for helping me through this journey. I feel very positive about my life, my future. Because I know I’ll always have BTR and I know they’re gonna help me get through it.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #4: Betrayal trauma recovery has helped me. Put the appropriate names to what I was experiencing and that would be abuse. In this group, The coaches help you feel like you are not the crazy one.
It’s So nice to know that like I’m not the only one. I just really appreciate the viewing exploitative content is abuse period because it’s so easily pushed to the side as a non-issue and it’s affecting so many really pure, noble women.
It helps me feel empowered to take the next step in my journey, whatever that step might be. I just want people to know that they’re not alone, they can listen to their intuition and by coming to BTR and sharing in a safe way, you feel more empowered after you leave the session every time.
Betrayal Trauma Support Group Sessions Helps Victims Create Safety
Betrayal Trauma Victim #5: BTR has been a group that has completely changed my life. It was something I didn’t even know was out there, didn’t even know that I needed, but has been a godsend. It’s life changing. The coaches are just your sister and they walk with you.
They help you all along the way. It’s also been good just to be able to watch the other ladies in here, to know that you have a group of people that completely understand where you are, what you’re going through, and even to see the progress you get inspired by their walk. To see the growth that they’ve done to now have the knowledge that we need to move forward to heal.
Whether we decide to stay or goal, BTR just really helps to heal us one step at a time and from the inside out. So I’m so appreciative of this group. It’s the best betrayal trauma resource.
Betrayal Trauma Victim #5: I am more than 10 years post-divorce and I discovered BTR within the last month,
I’m now hearing words that my soul has longed to hear for many decades as I walked, this journey without the resources that I needed. So I’ve experienced more healing that I just needed at this point in my life. The podcasts give me vocabulary and tools and affirmation by attending the group sessions.
I feel affirmed. I feel clarity, The BTR coaches are so professional. There are safeguards in place, so I feel like it’s a safe place to come. BTR coaches love us and they’re so well trained. I’m very, very grateful for BTR.
What is a Betrayal Trauma Support Group Like?
Betrayal Trauma Victim #6: I was desperate for help and search the internet for answers. I came across info on gaslighting. So this is what I’d been experiencing in my marriage for 26 years. And there’s a name for it. It was literally a mind blowing revelation for me that led me to the BTR website where I went on a podcast binge.
And listen to everything I could get my hands on. The fog of gaslighting began to lift and with the help of one of the coaches, I gained the courage to set some significant and appropriate boundaries. Her sessions were very informative and practical with examples, in a safe situation with feedback and encouragement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb13E7gmufs
Are Any Betrayal Trauma Support Groups Online?
Betrayal Trauma Victim #7: The BTR community is amazing. The support groups, everyone gets it.
There is no judgment. There’s no feelings of being victimized like with some therapists. I truly feel that everyone who participates validates our experience. the coaches Offer very helpful feedback and suggestions. A wealth of information. And I appreciate that people will share what has worked and also what hasn’t worked for them.
I really appreciate the ease of use. Many different times during the day that you can connect with the coaches. You don’t have to wait, and you don’t have to travel. You can do it from your computer. Especially for people with kids, the ability to quickly get an appointment and not have to find a babysitter. You can, you know, toss a movie in for an hour and get your needs met.
Get that validation and that help that we’re all searching for. So I strongly suggest people try it. The fee is nominal. It’s much less than you’re ever going to find anywhere else. You can use as many groups as you want during the month, it’s the best investment you can make in your recovery.
I’m a huge fan. I love the style, the program. I love the model
What are Betrayal Trauma Support Group Sessions Like?
Betrayal Trauma Victim #8: I was really desperate because therapists, like three of them in a row, didn’t work out. I was very blessed to find BTR. The BTR coaches are just wonderful.
The group meetings. are fulfilling in themselves, but the individual coach meetings are also wonderful. Everybody is so kind and helpful and gives me a lot of hope about what I’ve been going through. Thank you.
Feel Safe and Validated in a Betrayal Trauma Support Group
Betrayal Trauma Victim #9: In the midst of Finding out my spouse had been lying and cheating. Again, actually number six that I know of. The deepest, darkest moment of my life. I just happened to find the BTR podcast Words can’t express how listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast truly saved my life.
It made me feel like there are others out there. I wasn’t alone. The words of encouragement, education, support, and knowing that The situation is for real, and I wasn’t crazy, it was so comforting. After searching the BTR site, I noticed services were offered that could help even further. I decided now was the time and signed up for Group.
Words truly can’t express how this experience helped in my life. Each story and experience touch my life in so many ways. The encouragement, education, and knowledge received from coaches and other women will forever be a part of my life.
I wish I would have found BTR sooner, but I know it was simply in God’s timing to bring this organization into my life. I look forward to continuing individual sessions. Thank you, BTR and Anne for everythinG.
What is Marital Coercion? – Karen’s Story
Jul 02, 2024
Show notes
What is marital coercion? It can take many forms, but maybe the most common is when a husband uses pornography and hides it from his wife. Karen, a victim of betrayal trauma (and a therapist), joins Anne on the to explain why this is sexual coercion. To find out if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional coercion in your marriage, take our free emotional abuse test. If you are experiencing marital coercion, we’re here for you. Learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. Transcript: What Is Marital Coercion? Anne: I have Karen on today’s episode, she is a member of our community. She’s also a therapist. She’s going to use a pseudonym today to separate her professional work from her personal story. Welcome Karen. Why don’t you just start wherever you feel comfortable. Karen: Sure, basically, my husband was unfaithful. And what happened to me was what happens to so many partners. It was a very slow, leaky discovery. Whereas I initially thought there was one affair. And just as I was ready to move on from that discovery and had actually handled that well, I began to discover, of course, the rest of it. There was addiction involved, including multiple affair partners and acting out. As well as exchanging photographs and so forth. That was the beginning for me to discover what was actually going on for probably eight years before my discovery of it. Anne: You mentioned you handled it “quite well.” I want to point out that I’ve had so many victims at the beginning who feel they have to deal with it in an “appropriate way.” Like somebody told them, they can’t react with anger, sadness, or depression. And so if you could talk about your experience dealing with it “quite well.” And then also maybe why women are pressured to deal with it. In a way that a therapist, their church or society would be acceptable. Rather than allowing a victim to respond in any way that would be helpful to her. The Extent of Coercion in Marriage Karen: I think what is involved, at least for me. Is that I didn’t know the extent or depth of what was happening. And in fact, did not have the awareness of the emotional abuse and the depth of that either. Even though I knew something was wrong, I was in the dark. But it made sense to me that my husband at that time and stage in his life had taken a wrong turn and made a bad choice. That people make mistakes and we are all flawed, and that now he was back on track. And he was very motivated to heal the marriage. That was the information I first responded to. Even though that was extremely painful, I was able to walk through that with a bit of dignity and grace. So I was able to move through that rapidly, and to a place of acceptance and possibly moving forward. When I began to find out more information. Not realizing that it is coercion. So once I learned more information, I was in shock, just absolute shock. There are so many levels to this question. I think we want to appear like we can handle it? Why do we want to look good while we’re hemorrhaging to death? It’s because there’s some shame in being a victim. And I think that’s societal, and that’s about where we blame the victim, we distance the victim from ourselves. So we can look at the victim and say, “Well, I’m not like her, or I’m not like them. And that will never happen to me.” It’s a really difficult thing to identify yourself as a victim. Marital Coercion Supported By Soceital Pressure Anne: That makes so much sense, especially when it comes to a husband’s use. I went through that exact same thing too. And I thought I was dealing with his addiction recovery with grace. I wanted to be like the most supportive, helpful wife. So many victims go through that, you are not alone in dealing with betrayal. So you have a unique perspective, because you’ve been a therapist your whole life. And of course therapists are supposed to know about abuse. Likely before you found out you were abused, you thought I can recognize abuse. Can you talk about that? Karen: Yes, you can be in a situation where you’re being emotionally and psychologically abused, and you don’t identify it. It’s a slow awakening. I had been in freeze for many years, and freeze is paralysis. But I wasn’t aware that I was in freeze. So it’s like a slow thawing out of recognizing what’s been happening. And I think part of that is because It’s so insidious when it’s not real overt. I minimized it because there wasn’t physical abuse going on. About six years into our marriage, I confronted him about it. He would have an explosion verbally, he became critical, and so forth. And I basically told him at that point that I would not engage. So that actually was part of his rationalization and justification for acting out. In his twisted distorted thinking, that’s what he uses to justify himself. He will twist and distort reality into whatever shape he needs it to be, to explain and rationalize what he’s doing and why he has a right to do that. The Myth Of Sexual Needs Anne: That’s so common. All abusers blame their infidelity and abuse on something the victim did, because he’s not getting his “needs met.” And so he was justified in having an affair. Karen: Yeah, I was not rejecting him. This was to keep myself safe. In my attempt to keep myself safe, he wasn’t getting his way. He continues escalating further to the point where he is caught. And all this comes out. I have heard these kinds of comments on Facebook and social media. And it’ll often be women who are having affairs with married men and saying, “Well, his wife doesn’t give him it.” All of that is insane. And what’s going on is that it is not a need like food. There’s a myth that it is something that we have to have and cannot live without. I am totally for it. I understand at this stage of my development and evolution that it is not something that I have to have, like, for example, food. We do have to eat, or perish. We do not have to have it or perish, but we have a myth in society that that is the case. Anne: And that it’s like a legitimate “need.” Karen: Yes, and that it must be met. And so this feeds into the entitlement that men have. Pornography Is Marital Coercion Karen: Because if you think about toxic masculinity, what men have is toxic. We don’t want it. Feminism is not about imitating what men do, but about being able to completely fulfill who we are as women. To me, what that looks like is acknowledging that we have desires and can honor those. It does not mean we imitate toxic masculinity. Anne: Or use something extremely toxic, like pornography, to pattern our healthy intimate life after. If you’re viewing it and thinking that’s what a healthy intimate life is, that’s not. It’s like the farthest thing from it. Karen: Right, if you want to talk about healthy intimacy, it is a byproduct of intimacy and relationship. If we want to separate it out and use it as we use alcohol, drugs, and other experiences in a way that separates us from intimacy and relationship, that’s abusive and toxic. https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw Anne: Just like you and I were coerced for years, many people who participate don’t think they’re coerced. But they might actually be, and they’re abused in the process. Karen: Yes, and I believe many people who do it and believe in it are in coercive situations. The sex positive movement can be a form of bypass. free love, rock and roll, and drugs and all that stuff. People actually believe it’s a spiritual thing to be that way. It’s just bypass in general. Anne: Yeah, which I think is just abusive and ridiculous. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I have the luxury of saying this is my podcast, and what I think is it’s a bunch of bull crap. Pornography Is Exploitive Karen: But see, then that makes us uptight. So then that means I’m sex negative. Anne: I don’t even play games with that. I say, no, it is wrong. It’s always wrong, it’s always going to be wrong. It’s always abusive. I don’t make apologies for that, which makes it nice here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. All the women who listen to our podcast have been victimized by marital coercion. And so any semblance of saying it’s healthy is so triggering and harmful to victims. Karen: It’s exploitive. I don’t understand how that can be anything except part of enabling toxic masculinity and the abuse of women and children. It’s abusive. I don’t see it as consensual. Abusiveness is one major component of not only addiction, but all addiction. And in addiction, it is especially harmful. People who use substances abuse the substance, rather than other people. And so they’re harming themselves in that sense, but in the addiction taking control and driving their behavior. They end up being abusive to the people around them, because they lie, deceive, and manipulate, and that’s abusive. With the addict, it goes even further. And so to me, I see in the treatment industry, it’s like the elephant in the room. So they are not addressing the abuse component of addiction. Anne: Yeah. Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Mission & Workshops Anne: That’s why I started podcasting. I didn’t want one other woman in the entire world to go through this and not understand that she was experiencing marital coercion. And so that’s why, rather than recommending treatment. We developed the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Before it was a workshop, I used these strategies to deliver myself and my children from this type of coercive abuse. We know these strategies work. They’re incredible. Teaching victims about strategies and how to get to safety is so much more effective in terms of emotional and psychological abuse which is marital coercion in the form of secrets and affairs. Karen: Yes, it’s absolutely beautiful work and I appreciate it. And thank you so much, because you are on the leading vanguard. Anne: The lone voice of reason on the internet. Karen: The treatment industry doesn’t want to address this and is not addressing it. Anne: No, from what I’ve seen, men’s treatment programs, whether for abusers or addictions, are all about protecting him. And the victim is further abused in the process. Karen: Yes, it is. It absolutely is. In the addiction industry, you are basically enabling the addict to continue to abuse. But you feel satisfied that you’ve done some form of harm reduction. That’s where it fails. It doesn’t go far enough to understand the abuse component. Why, why are we sacrificing children and most often women to protect the addicts? To save face. How can you have these clients come in and say, not only are you an addict, but you’re an abuser? Is It Marital Coercion? Critique Of Men’s Treatment Programs Anne: Like that’s just too much for these poor guys, apparently. We don’t want to push them over the edge. And I’m like, what about the victim? He already pushed her over the edge. He’s like abandoning her out there. And so are the therapists. To me, it’s a subtle, actually not so subtle, a very obvious and insidious issue of misogyny. Karen: That is the true crux of it all. We’re in a patriarchal system. It seems obvious to me at this point, but it was not obvious to me before. This has been going on forever, but we are only now beginning to face it. It’s such a horrific tragedy. My husband went to an intensive treatment program. And when I went for the week, the way I was treated for one week in this intensive treatment program was at the expense of me on behalf of the abuser. Anne: Yeah, again, that’s why we never recommend men’s programs for addiction or abuse, because they don’t stop the abuse. But the abuser tends to become more abusive. I know that because I used to recommend a few, and then the victims would come back, and I would hear horror stories. I mean, he is an abuser. He’s going to weaponize anything at his disposal, including a treatment program against his victim. Karen: Yes. And I believe that. Marital Coercion In Relationships Anne: Let’s talk about the marital coercion in the form of men secretly use and lie to their wife about it, knowing that that is outside her boundaries. Karen: I personally am clear about it. In fact, I told my husband early on that I am not okay with it, that I’m not comfortable with it, that I don’t want it in my life or in our environment whatsoever. And asked him if he would respect that, and he said yes. Anne: Exactly, so then at that point, if he is using it secretly, lying to you and soliciting prostitutes. If he’s lying about any of that, it’s marital coercion to keep you in the relationship. Karen: Yes, by going ahead and engaging in that without telling me, he’s altering my reality. He’s actually robbing me of agency. It’s not about “Hey, I like it and I’m going to use this for me over here.” It’s like women have the right to say, “No, I’m not comfortable with that. I don’t want that in our relationship. And I don’t want you to do that.” That doesn’t mean they’re not open minded. The Impact Of Deception Anne: If he was honest and said, “I hide who I really am. So people will continue to think that I’m a good person. I, for sure, don’t want to tell anyone that I view it and masturbate all the time. Sometimes I have hookups with people I barely know. I solicit prostitutes. Sometimes I’ve had affairs with married women.” “If I ever get caught, me like blatantly saying that will make me look like a bad person. So I’d rather pretend like I’m a little bit sorry and I might want to change. Even though I have no intention of doing that. I just know it’s not socially acceptable to admit this. So I act like I’m ashamed and embarrassed. But I’m not really. I highly doubt I will ever stop.” That’s not marital coercion. Because then you can say, “Oh, okay. Thanks for letting me know, have a nice life.” Marital coercion is when he lies about it. So, if you tell him, “I am not comfortable having it with a man who uses it.” Then he lies to you and says he doesn’t use it. Karen: Yeah, it’s deception. When Women Suspect Marital Coercion Karen: Women are perfectly allowed to have our own preferences and boundaries. There’s nothing that we should do outside of what is comfortable for us and what we ourselves desire and want to be part of. I had my boundaries before any of this happened. My boundaries were monogamy, no exploitative material, that we would both be faithful. They were very, very clear. And I did not equivocate about those whatsoever. My husband agreed to all of them. And that’s my understanding of our relationship. Until I find out one day that none of those parameters are honored and all that is violated. Anne: Oh, it is so heart-wrenching. Then when you tell people about it, they act like, “Oh, well, sometimes relationships don’t work out.”. Karen: Women in this society are abused, like it’s just part of life. Anne: Yeah, abuse should definitely not be dismissed in that way. You think about a rape victim, who’s raped by a stranger. Everyone knows. They should never say, “Oh, some people just get raped. It didn’t work for you to walk down that street. Hopefully, you can just move on and stop being so bitter about it.” They would never say that. But marital coercion is rape. And they literally say that to rape victims. Betrayal Trauma victims have been coerced. And so it’s just as harmful to say something as flippant to a woman raped by a stranger. As it is to a woman who has been coerced continuously by her husband for years, years and years. This is years of abuse. Systemic Issues & Patriarchy Karen: And I think all of it comes down to toxic masculinity. And a patriarchal system in which men are privileged and entitled, and everything in our culture encourages that. The victim is blamed on every level and corner of society. So this is not a matter of an individual man. It’s not a matter of your husband or mine. This is an entire systemic issue that is at the heart and at the core of all this. And if you want to look at a betrayal trauma victim and sa…
Types of Exploitation – A Conversation with Anne Basham
Jun 25, 2024
Show notes
Whether it’s objectifying one human being through domestic abuse or many through trafficking, dehumanizing women is a despicable act. One of the types of exploitation is so common most people don’t know how harmful it is. Anne Basham, CEO of Anti-Trafficking International (ATI), joins Anne to dive deep into the correlations between pornography use, domestic abuse, and human trafficking. Do you need support? Learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. Transcript: Types of Exploitation Anne: We have Anne Basham on today’s episode. She understands the connection between trafficking and domestic abuse. has worked in both the legislative and executive branches of the federal government, as well as government relations in the private sector. Where she advocated on behalf of human rights such as violence against women, child welfare, human trafficking and genocide. Most recently Ms. Basham was the senior advisor at the Department of Justice for Victims of Crime. Anne B. helped develop strategies to help victims of human trafficking, assault, and violence against women and children. This is why she is passionate about empowering children, parents, and frontline responders to effectively recognize and respond to human trafficking. Welcome Anne Basham. Anne B.: Thank you so much for having me. Anne: Before this episode, we talked a little about how trafficking and grooming intersect with narcissism. And the type of abuse that I talk about on this podcast all the time, all day long, every episode. So as we talk about trafficking, where you see some overlaps. I would like you to bring that out of the woodwork for our listeners. Since all of our listeners marry, men who exploit women. So I want both of us to remember that. So we can always bring it back to our listeners, and what they can do, and even how it can help them in their own situations. Intersection Of Types of Exploitation Anne: Let’s talk about how men groom women to exploit them. Because I talk about grooming on this podcast about what men do to their partners, trying to make them look like a good guy. Talk about grooming in this context Anne B.: Yeah, so there’s definitely a lot of crossover. So grooming really is conditioning someone to do something that is not within their nature. This can obviously happen in a marriage, as well as in trafficking. That’s one of the crossovers. In human trafficking, there’s a big misconception that human trafficking is mostly someone coming and kidnapping a child off your front lawn. That is not how trafficking usually happens in America. Usually it’s grooming. It’s a boyfriend at a high school who appears like a wonderful guy. He may appear like a wonderful guy to the parents, he lures her in. And conditions her slowly over time to either do things she doesn’t want to do through coercion or force, or then he threatens her. Coercion In The Context Of Trafficking For example, it’s video recording sexual acts and then threatening to put them on the internet, or show them to peers. It could be physical threats of violence against her or her family. It’s really through coercion, fraud or force. But it happens through the mechanism almost always of grooming instead of straight kidnapping. Anne: That’s super important for our listeners. I have talked to many women in our community who have been filmed by their husband and experienced marital coercion. For example, he put a camera in the shower and then uploaded it to the internet for money. Or filmed them secretly. So if she never finds out about it, is that still considered trafficking? https://youtu.be/Cnda4Lcrb0A Legal Definitions Of Exploitation Anne B.: The definition of trafficking is, it involves money. Trafficking uses fraud or coercion, then attaches money to it. For example, you can be groomed in different situations. But when it’s trafficking, you’re exchanging goods. The underpinning of trafficking is greed. Think of it like drug trafficking, it’s very similar. How can we monetize a person as a product and get money for them, and that’s what’s underneath. Anne: So if a man secretly films his wife in the shower or in other private moments, and puts it on the internet and sells it as mainstream pornography. That would be trafficking? Anne B.: That’s a really interesting question. If he films it with the intent of making money, that can cross the line into trafficking. Trafficking by definition has to do with an exchange of money. Legally, for it to be trafficking, there must be a sexual act. So if she’s in the shower and he videos her, puts it on the internet and sells it, it’s probably illegal. But it’s not technically trafficking. If however, he videos her in an act with him, and then puts it on the internet with the intent to make money, it’s trafficking. Anne: So if I were a trafficking husband’s defense attorney, I would say “Well he didn’t mean to make money. That wasn’t the intent”, and I would get off. Anne B.: I don’t know if you’d get off or not. It’s up to the attorneys. It’s definitely a gray area, but if it can be proven that it was videoed and then intended to make money off of it in any way. Then that crosses the line. And the legal definition is coercion, fraud or force. Exploitation and Domestic Abuse Anne B.: So if that video is used in a coercive way, it’s also crossing a line. Anne: Interesting. So it sounds like we need a little stronger laws on the books in terms of men filming their wives and putting it on the internet. Many women come and say my husband filmed me, he put it online. I don’t know what to do. And they’re trying to figure out if I save my marriage or not. I want to be like you’ve got a serious abuser on your hands if that has happened to you. Anne B.: Oh yeah, absolutely. The issue is, if I can just go down that road, is that it primes someone to think exploitation is acceptable. There’s a huge link, and it’s not discussed enough. Fortunately, people are talking about it much more. But it used to be, oh no pornography is something innocent. If people willingly exploit people to make it or exploit people they view, what’s the issue? The answer is in the question. Just to give you a quick understanding of trafficking: there are the traffickers, and those are the people selling the victims. And then there are people called recruiters, who could be teenagers in high school. Think of it in terms of drug trafficking. You have people who sell the drugs, you have the supplier who gives them the drugs. They think of usually girls the same way. So the target age I should say of a person who’s trafficked is actually 11 to 15. But it goes up to 25. Exploiter’s Mindset Anne B.: The mindset is similar to a narcissist. I worked at the Department of Justice, I met with a man who spent his life working on reforms in the criminal justice system. He writes books. He’s a leader at a college. And he said to me point blank on the phone that the connection between an abuser in a domestic violence relationship and a human trafficker are the same. Exploitation and men who use coercive control are linked. It’s just in one case they do it with one person, and in the other they do it with many people and for money. So that was interesting to hear from him, because he said that to me at the beginning of a meeting. But I will tell you that traffickers target their victims. It’s a lot of mind games. So that’s a lot of similarities that you’ll see with some of your listeners. You don’t see many people who are purchasing the victims. Exploitative media conditions your brain and what you see on the screen. It’s even more violent, it’s not always consensual. And every time someone consumes it, their brain has a dopamine hit. So when their brain gets that dopamine hit, what happens? They want the next. There’s a woman on our board of directors, and she is an expert in addiction. She explained to me that it’s more difficult to break a sex addiction than any other addiction, because you carry your sexuality everywhere you go. Exploitation: The Motivation Of Domestic Abuse Anne: I think the thing that’s hard for wives of these men to wrap their heads around is that this is an abuser, their husband is toxic. So even if he has an “addiction”, it’s domestic abuse to you. His addiction is an addiction for him, he has the addiction. What you have is an abusive man. It’s important to know that this is directly tied to domestic abuse. Someone willing to lie, manipulate, narcissistic abuse or covert abuse. If someone is that type of abuser, and he’s a man, then he is likely to use exploitative media. So many women will say he didn’t use exploitative media, but he lied, he manipulated, he did all these other things. In the back of my mind, I’m always thinking, it’s so easy to hide. You can use it on your phone. It doesn’t smell. It’s not like a drug or like alcohol, where you can smell it on your breath. It’s very easy for someone to hide this from their spouse forever, and they never find out about it. Anne B.: Oh absolutely, I completely agree. Anne: There’s this sense that a human being is not really human. That they’re a drug. That they are bought or sold and can be manipulated. In the case of a husband, it’s more like she’s a tool. She can do my laundry, do my dishes, and give me it. These are the things that she is good for. And I’m going to use her for those things. Rather than actually seeing her as a partner. Coercion: How Abuser’s Exploit Anne B.: Absolutely, that’s the core of it. That was what I think this man at the Department of Justice was trying to get at, is that the core mindset is objectification of the person. They objectify the person they marry, or they objectify the victim through trafficking. That’s the similar element. It’s a piece of property. Exploitative men who do it are modern day slavers. Because it’s slavery. People can’t get out. They’re literally trapped. They’re stuck in that situation that always starts with seeing someone as property and not seeing them as equal to yourself in value or worth. Anne: Something you said reminded me of our listeners. You said traffickers play mind games with their victims. To get them to the point where the victim is willing to do something they normally wouldn’t be willing to do. Exploiters play mind games with the victim to manufacture her consent. She would say, “Yeah, I gave consent.” She doesn’t realize all the mind games she’s experienced, manipulation and all the coercion. She actually thinks she gives her consent, when she is manipulated and coerced. Is that accurate? Anne B.: Yes, absolutely. Anne: When I say this relates to our listeners, there’s nothing more consensual than saying yes to getting married. People don’t realize she was manipulated and coerced. And says yes, but she is to, manipulated, and coerced. People think that if you give your consent, it’s not abuse. They don’t realize that people are abused into giving their “consent” when they’re actually not giving consent at all. Trafficking Victims’ Security Anne B.: Oh absolutely. Coercion can happen in any form. It may not fit the legal definition of trafficking, because there may not be an exchange of money, but people can be coerced. Previously in my career, I worked in violence against women. That is often the case, that it actually kept them literally trapped in the relationship. We also see that in trafficking. Interestingly, victims oftentimes are in safe houses and have not just normal locks, but real security at these facilities. I remember when I first visited, I thought, oh this must be to keep the traffickers out. No, it’s not to keep the traffickers out. It’s usually to help keep the victims in, especially if they’re under 18. They don’t want to be trafficked. They’re glad to be out. But simultaneously, there is this feeling that they have to return. Because there’s enormous fear, and I see that all the time with the commonality of narcissism. Anne: Let’s talk about the types of exploitation in your community. Because many people think of trafficking as if your child got trafficked, so you never saw them again. But from what you’re saying, your child is trafficked right under your nose while they’re still living in your home. Anne B.: Yes, the woman who actually heads up our parent coalition, her daughter, was trafficked right out of her own home. So here in wealthy Fairfax County, one of the wealthiest counties in the country, right outside of Washington D.C., parents were married in all of those circumstances. Anne: So what you’re saying is that this is not who you imagine as trafficked. Trafficking: Exploiters Are Deceptive Anne B.: No, this is not who you may imagine being trafficked. And I will tell you this woman has come forward and is public with her story. But I know of plenty of these scenarios that are not public and will never be shared publicly for the protection of the daughter’s identity. You know who is involved in the family. Let me tell you there are names that your listeners would recognize, and their children have been victims even out of private schools. Which is shocking to people, like how could this happen to people with intact families? The profile of what we think fits a trafficking victim isn’t always there. I will say that victims can be compassionate and kind. And actually, some of the greatest strengths are some of the things perceived as weaknesses. Anne: When you say the victims aren’t always what you think or not what you think at all, that’s also true of the traffickers I’m assuming. But you’d think, oh a trafficker is supposed to look this way. He’s not supposed to wear a white shirt and tie. He doesn’t go to church and he doesn’t have a good job. And I don’t think that’s the case either. Right, so many traffickers look like an upstanding member of society. Anne B.: So there’s the traffickers and especially the recruiters So sometimes they are gang related but not always. And the recruiters often are very charming, I will say most of the time these people are very charming. Love Bombing, Trafficking, and Recruitment Tactics Of Exploitative Men Anne B.: They can do a lot of the love bombing, which I’m sure your listeners are familiar with. What love bombing is, where they shower them with gifts, flattery, and attention and fill all those needs. And through the love bombing, the victim just says this person is so wonderful. They’re getting all their dopamine hits, wow, this person’s just checking all my boxes. Unfortunately, the trafficker or recruiter knows this. And so absolutely, they don’t fit a certain profile. And I will say with that, to the buyers, one of the most interesting things to me is that you have the people selling it. Who’s buying these girls? Who is the consumer of exploitation? That’s what I feel the focus should be. I don’t have the source of the statistic in front of me, so I’m not going to state the statistic explicitly, but it’s a real statistic that a large percentage of the buyers. And so I don’t want to say the number, because I don’t have it in front of me. But a large percentage of victims’ buyers are white evangelical males, and I believe that’s because there’s a huge link to exploitative media. And so I would encourage your listeners, because I know most of them are coming out of some form of abuse. If there is abuse in your marriage, I would really have your wits about you. Religious Abuse & Maintaining Control Anne: This is a scary thing. I would say most of our listeners are women of faith. But some of them aren’t. We have agnostics that listen, and atheists that listen, and we’re interfaith and inter paradigm. So everyone is welcome here. But I think the thing that shocks the Christian listeners is that they thought they were a righteous man because he attends church, and because he can quote the Bible and other things. And wrapping their heads around the fact that those are grooming tactics that he is using to maintain power. Because…
When Your Husband Uses Spiritual Abuse – Coach Sharon’s Story
Jun 18, 2024
Show notes
If you’re wondering if you’re experiencing spiritual abuse, Sharon shares how her husband’s spiritual abuse affected her. Although spiritual abuse can be subtle, sometimes it can be extremely intense. If you’re wondering if you’re experiencing spiritual abuse, take our free quiz. Effects Of Spiritual Abuse Anne: I’ve invited Coach Sharon, part of our BTR coaching team to come on today’s episode. Sharon and I have been sharing our innermost feelings about the work that we do. How it really feels so urgent to share the truth with women about spiritual abuse and what they may be facing. Welcome, Sharon. Both of us have gone through quite a lot lately, and sometimes when we’re faced with this level of evil, really. I mean oppression and people really trying to harm other people, it gets a little overwhelming at times. As we share today, I want all of you to know that everyone is always welcome here. We are interfaith no matter what religion you’re a part of, and no matter if you don’t have a religion, you are welcome here. Sharon and I are going to be sharing from our faith perspective today. This is our own personal experience, not necessarily to proselytize to you. We hope that you find it helpful and just wanted to let you know that. Again, everybody’s welcome. One of the things Sharon and I talk about is that bringing the light in the light of our savior, Jesus Christ. Well, Sharon and I are Christians, helps us do this work and sort of push out the darkness when we’re feeling overwhelmed. Sharon, in your experience being a BTR coach, she facilitates BTR Group Sessions as well as BTR Individual Sessions. Emphasis On Interfaith Inclusivity When Talking About Spiritual Abuse As you have the opportunity every day to help women. They’re in the darkness, they don’t really know what’s going on. Can you talk about that and how that feels? Coach Sharon: Yeah, coming into light is important. I mean, when you’re living in darkness and you don’t know the truth, it’s a difficult place to be. When you don’t know what the truth is, when you don’t know what the diagnosis is, when you don’t know what the problem is. Then you don’t know how to keep yourself safe. You need to know what the truth is in order to come to a place of safety. Women come into BTR not knowing what truth is, feeling like their truth, even though there’s something on the inside, I think you call it the internal warning system, that internal navigator, it will direct you. https://youtube.com/shorts/GcKBBYifx2I It will show you that there’s something going on. But knowing to trust that internal truth is difficult, especially when you don’t have words for it, when you don’t know how to define it, when there’s been no basis forever making you aware that there could even be evil. You feel crazy, you feel like this is just me. I must be alone. There must be something wrong with me. A lot of women come into BTR feeling that way, like I’m just in the dark and there’s no light. It takes so long to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse. It’s hard to navigate in darkness. It’s hard to perform any task. The Impact Of Light & Truth In Healing From Spiritual Abuse Well, if you’re doing it in darkness. BTR turns a light on and exposes abuse. It exposes emotional harm and psychological harm and spiritual harm and so forth, and helps women to get to a place where they can actually get safe. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, you referenced that darkness in terms of living in that dark space, the workshop calls it the shadow and living in that shadow or living in that dark place or that cave. It’s a hopeless existence. So coming into light, coming into truth helps you to bring your life into a better place. I was thinking about that scripture that says men prefer darkness rather than light because their ways are evil. Now, I mean, I don’t think the Bible was specifically just referring to men, but at the same token, the principle is true. Darkness is the preferred way because evil can live in darkness, right? There’s no evil in light where there’s light, there’s truth, and truth comes in a variety of different forms. But if we don’t expose ourselves to truth, then we stay in darkness. For example, I think in scripture, but I was thinking about the text that says, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. But if you don’t access truth, financial truth or physical truth in terms of nutritional truth or there’s lots of different truth that we need to expose ourselves to, but my people perish for a lack of knowledge. Truth Overcomes The Effects Of Spiritual Abuse If you don’t have the knowledge, then you don’t have the truth. If you don’t have the truth, then you don’t have safety. So coming into truth is really important. Anne: For women of faith. Truth is important in general, just like in their bones. My guess is truth is important to agnostics and atheists as well. Logic or just reality. I think for all of us, truth is important for women of faith. When we think about truth coming from God maybe or truth coming from scripture or something. It’s so important to interpret for yourself what the Bible says about abuse. Can you talk about how so many abusers twist that so that it keeps the victims in the dark? That they are trying to stay married after infidelity and not tell the truth. They weaponize victims true desire to know truth or to know God in order to exploit them or harm them. It gets really confusing, I think for women to think like, well, I went to scripture or I went to my faith leader to get help. It didn’t really help me and I was truly seeking help. It’s not because the word in and of itself is inaccurate or the word in and of itself is harmful, but it’s because so many of the evil interpretations of it or the evil applications of it have harmed victims. Can you talk about that for a bit? Coach Sharon: Yeah. I love that you say that. That was my experience when you consider scripture was firmly rooted in my heart as a child. I grew up knowing that scripture was good. It was how we were taught to live our life. The Power & Misinterpretation Of Scripture Scripture being firmly rooted in my heart root, my thoughts governed my actions. It’s how I lived my life, but it cultivated not abuse, but a soil for faith like that foundation created in my life, a rich soil that was faith. I had something planted in that good soil with something that was evil, it grew mindsets and strongholds and things in my life that God never intended to be there. It’s not that the word was bad, the word was always good, the teaching was always good, but the seed was a negative seed. It produced negativity in my life opposed to what God intended to be able to grow in that part of my life. I heard this quote I want to read. Can I read this really quickly? Yeah. It says the word is God and God is his word. The word of God, scripture is God. It’s who He’s, and God is his word. It’s his character. We come to know God by what is read in the Word, and if the word is poorly translated, then God is poorly known. So it’s just we come to know who God is by his word. I mean, think about everything the Bible says in terms of God’s word. What does the Bible say about divorce? Weaponizing Faith Against Victims He said his word over everything. Proverbs says that a good name is of great riches and he has exalted his word over everything. So the word is who God is, right? So if you have a word that is poorly translated, then God can’t be correctly known. I lost God when I said I do. I didn’t have a God because the God that was being portrayed to me was one where there was classes and I was in the second class seat. In this new position that I was in, I didn’t have a voice in this space. I was expendable in this space. My thoughts, my feelings, my value were all secondary in this space. It made me feel as if I had no God, which was very damaging in terms of my life because it was the foundation in my faith. Those words can be really detrimental in terms of how women process. Anne: Can you share what you thought back then? Because guessing back then you didn’t think, God doesn’t love me, I’m a second class citizen. I’m guessing that that type of articulated thought wasn’t there. Were there ways that you kind of did some mental gymnastics to kind of be in that space? Coach Sharon: Yeah, so my thought process was this was part of the cross. This was suffering. It was the way of suffering. We’ve been called to suffer and sometimes suffering and marriage is what God calls us to, that we’re called to a life of suffering. Mental Gymnastics In Spiritual Abuse The suffering wasn’t extensive. It wasn’t like anyone was abusing me, especially since I had no definition of what abuse was. So this was just godly sorrow. This was my cross. That’s that song. Must Jesus bear the cross alone and all the world go free? No, there’s a cross for everyone and there’s a cross. For me, that was my cross. I would submit to things that I knew were harmful and that were wrong, but I would justify them. This is what God wants for me, and I can show him my love through my obedience, through me not complaining, by me, forgiving by me overlooking. In that I’m showing God my love. Because there are so many scriptures that speak to the truth of being obedient, which I think is a godly principle, is being obedient. Because everything is not rightly divided, when we are talking about scripture, we’ll take one scripture and that’s it. Wives are to obey their husband in all things, and that covers everything. There’s never any more dialogue or anything that goes into unpacking that. Then those things can be used as a weapon against women to silence them or to make them believe that this is correct. Anne: At the time when you silenced your own internal warning system, God’s telling you something’s not quite right here. You’re feeling it. Well, I want to say he’s kind of reframing it for you, right? Do you feel like the abuser reframed it in terms of this is your suffering, or because you had no other context for it and it wasn’t your fault, right? The Challenge Of Recognizing Spiritual Abuse Because you hadn’t been educated about abuse, the light had not been shined on it. Do you think you were the one that reframed it? Sorry, I don’t mean to blame the victim in that sense. None of it was your fault, but I’m just trying to figure out how we can help other women who might be grappling with this. Women who are reframing it in a way because they have no light, they have no ability to reframe it any other way because there isn’t any other context for it. Do you know what I mean? Coach Sharon: Absolutely. I think it was a combination of things. I mean, it was me preferring to stay in what was comfortable. It was easier. It was familiar. I wanted it with all of my being. It was easier for me to redefine it, reframe it, call it something different. Then I didn’t have to move. It allowed me to stay where I was comfortable, even when I knew that there were things that there’s no way when I would think about concepts of grace. Isn’t God a God of grace, of compassion, of love? How are you reasoning this out? It was just like, ah, you can find a way. You can find way to make anything fit if you really wanted to. I think a lot of it was me refining it and not wanting to really see it for what it was. Of course, I think that my husband at the time wanted me to believe that as well. I think that it served a purpose for him, for me to believe that I was rebellious. Internal Conflicts & Rationalization That this was really me, that it was all me. He played a part in that, but I also just believe that evil is always there. Let’s take away the chuck. Let’s take away Sharon. I think that there’s always that internal evil trying to speak voices that influence us to go in the wrong direction. I don’t think that that is always, it can come through the voice of a person, but I think that evil is always right there. You’re not good enough. You’re not this, you can’t do it. God doesn’t love you. Those evil voices are always there. So I think it was a combination of things all working together as a perfect storm to keep me stuck. Anne: It’s interesting when you said I was comfortable, I was stuck. Guess what else it came from? You are really, really good character and your pure nature, because the thing you really wanted wasn’t to be comfortable in abuse, but the thing you really wanted was a peaceful family. It was coming from this place of goodness, and I think all victims who are trying to figure this out. It’s not like we hear every day victims being like, oh, my family and marriage doesn’t matter to me. I don’t care. I’m just comfortable here. I like my pillow and I really like my couch, so I’m not doing anything. No, no, no, no, no. That’s not where they’re coming from. They’re like, this is hard and I’m suffering, but my family is important to me. The unity that I feel, the kind of life that I want is a life of wholeness and goodness, and I want to get there with my family. Desire For Family Unity & Spiritual Abuse Sorry, I’m not trying to invalidate what you said, but I know you really well. I’m just thinking of comfort. I don’t know if that is the right way to describe it. Coach Sharon: I wanted my marriage. It’s just like I had a vision for what my life was supposed to look like in terms of my family and so forth. When I say comfort, I’m not talking about the luxuries of life. I’m talking about the purpose of life. I’m talking about what I gave myself to and believed in. I wanted, wanted to hold on to what I felt like my destiny was, and my destiny was connected to a unit. It was connected to a person. When I say the person, I’m talking about my family. Anne: Do you mean like the church because he was a pastor. Coach Sharon: Just metaphorically my family, but yes, the church as well. I felt committed to what will this look like to others? How will this harm others? What will this mean if I walk away from this in terms of the people that will be hurt to see that this has happened when we’re supposed to be something that represents what a good marriage is supposed to look like? What will that mean to them? So all of that played a part with me staying and feeling like, no, I need to try to do this. It was an uphill battle, and I begged God to change circumstances that just never changed. Shattered Dreams & Seeking Spiritual Safety I knew at some point, there’s no way this will ever get better, because there was no enlightenment. I am in no way stating that I didn’t have a role in the harm that was played in it. I did, but it wasn’t a systematic denial of personhood. It wasn’t like I wasn’t allowing a person to be a person, that there was a continual determination to not allow a person to be heard. Or to have an opinion in so many different areas where they stopped having the ability to weigh in or be a part of their own life. To not have the ability to weigh in on your own life is to rob you of your identity. Faith doesn’t even do that. God gives you the ability to choose even when the choice is a bad choice. I set before you life and death. No, don’t set anything before me. Just give me the good thing. You can choose me or you can choose not to choose me. No, just make me choose you. He gives us the gift of choice. When that’s taken from us in a relationship where you can’t choose what you want to do or to have a voice in your parenting or to make a choice about what you like or dislike, what’s important to you, your values, that’s taken away your personhood, and that’s not a holy thing. How Spiritual Abuse Effects Choice Anne: In my experience, that never occurred where I felt like my personhood was taken from me or that I didn’t have a say. I always felt like I for sure had a say. What I felt like was that I couldn’t do anything. It doesn’t matter. I can’t make progress in my own life. The th…
The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma
Jun 11, 2024
Show notes
The picture book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is the best way to explain betrayal trauma to someone who doesn’t quite “get it”. If you’re feeling ignored, dismissed, and blamed for your husband’s infidelity, you’re not alone. Trauma Mama Husband Drama Is The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma The term “betrayal trauma” is not knows or misunderstood in many circles. Anne knows this and wanted to help women give a name to the mental, physical, and emotional symptoms that women suffer when their partners abuse them through betrayal. Using Trauma Mama, Husband Drama to understand and give a voice to the emotions they are experiencing may be helpful to victims of betrayal trauma. Trauma Mama, Husband Drama Uses Illustration When Words Don’t Work Victims of betrayal know that the devastation of betrayal can surpass any attempt at verbal description. When words are too hard, illustrations can help victims process pain. It was a lot harder than I thought to illustrate some of these concepts visually. One of the pictures is of Dad, and it’s this vortex of abuse where sometimes he’s sweet and sometimes he’s on a rampage. We were trying to figure out how to do that, and it was a difficult concept. A friend of mine said, ‘What about a tornado?’ so we did a tornado. Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery Furthermore, by making it a picture book, Anne made it easier for women in trauma to understand its contents and more accessible to clergy, family, and friends who might be less inclined to read a lengthy book about abuse. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Empowers Victims Of Betrayal At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we will never stop finding new ways to help victims of betrayal find safety and healing. We know that women need a safe space to process their trauma, share their stories, ask questions, and make connections with other victims who get it. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets daily in multiple time zones, offering victims the validation, support, and compassion they need. Join today. Transcript: The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma This episode follows Jenna’s Story:1: Is It Wrong To Check Your Husband’s Phone? – Jenna’s Experience 2: The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma (THIS EPISODE)3: How To Recognize Victim Blaming – Jenna’s Story4: When He Lies About Small Things, This Brilliant Analogy Offers Insight Anne: So today, a member of our community, I’ll call Jenna is with me. She follows me on Instagram, where we interact quite a bit. She’s amazing, I’m so grateful for her. Welcome. Jenna: Hi Anne, thanks for having me. Anne: I wrote the book Trauma Mama Husband Drama, because all the abuse books are thick, big old books. And if you hand somebody, one of these books, like clergy or a therapist, or your mom. It’s so overwhelming. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is very simple. It is the best way to explain betrayal trauma to someone who doesn’t get it, because it’s pictures and then there’s infographics in the back. I sent one of these books to Jenna. You can a copy of my book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama on Amazon. Jenna: I first saw the cover, and the illustrations are beautiful. And of course, I read the title Trauma Mama Husband Drama. I kind of chuckled to myself, because I’ve read the Llama Mama, Pajama, whatever that book is, to my son a million times. And I liked the simplicity of the text, but also the accuracy of everything. I felt like it portrayed exactly how I felt in my experience of betrayal trauma. I felt like it was a clear explanation for going through how infidelity and betrayal trauma felt as the wife of an addict. Traditional Abuse Books Are Not The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma Anne: So because I interact with thousands of women on Facebook and Instagram, YouTube and Tik TOK, women share their stories with me. They also obviously come on the podcast to share their stories. So I hear thousands of women’s stories. I continue to hear new stories every day. So I have both a very broad overview of what it’s like to go through betrayal trauma, and then I understand it on a very specific intimate level because I went through it. But then I also hear all the details of other women’s stories. So my goal for this book was to explain betrayal trauma to somebody who might not understand it. Jenna: Absolutely, because you interact with so many women every day, you hear the stories of women with so many experiences and backgrounds. And I felt like this book captured the themes. I know that women with different experiences can still relate, even though the stories themselves can be so different. There’s so much overlap. Anne: So I gave one of those big old abuse books that explains all the details about abuse to my ecclesiastical leader. And my big chunky non-fiction book will be coming out soon. And I love reading books about abuse, and I love writing books about abuse, and I want everyone to read my non-fiction book. But I find that people who haven’t been through it aren’t like super excited to spend 10 hours reading a big nonfiction book about abuse. Trauma Momma Husband Drama Is The Best Way To Explain Betayal Trauma, It’s Short & Simple Anne: This book is so different, because it’s immediately inviting. You want to open it up and look at the pages. And I hope women will want to purchase multiple copies for their clergy, maybe for their therapists, maybe their local library. Because I think a book like this that actually illustrates the emotions with pictures. Is so much more motivating for people to read than a 400 page nonfiction abuse book. Jenna: I definitely think it will make a difference. Just being able to physically hand someone a book you can read fairly quickly. And like you said, you see the visual story happening, and the text is simple. Having a tool that’s simple and direct will make it easier to share with our friends, with our family, our clergy. And it will make it more likely that they’re actually going to read the book and understand what we’re going through. It’s a simple message, and we just hand it over, and it makes it clear and concise for the reader. Anne: This type of abuse is complex. When you explain it the first time, most people are like, no, no. They kind of roll their eyes and shake their heads. And they’re like no, no, this is not abuse. Pornography use is not abusive, whatever, and then maybe they think about it, and then maybe they come back. In fact, all of us went through that same thing where we were like, “No, he’s a good guy, he just has this problem. I don’t know what you’re talking about.” So this book enables people to suspend their disbelief enough to let it sink in a little bit more than perhaps a conversation might. The powerful truth is this is emotional abuse to his wife. Explaining Betrayal Trauma Useing Illustrations & Infographics To Make The Content Easy To Understand Anne: This book includes a bunch of infographics at the end about why it’s abusive, really illustrating in visual ways this type of abuse. Like there’s one infographic specifically on coercion and what that means. There are infographics on the four pillars of abuse and the abuse cycle. Those educational pieces help tie it together in logical ways. Due to that, II think it kind of sidesteps what happens maybe in a conversation. When people hear the word abuse and put their guard up. Jenna: Yeah, I agree. It’s like a tool that they can pick up and read, put down and think about. And then go back and look at the infographics and think about them some more. And put it down, pick it back up. It’s like an ongoing process, because like you said, we all go through that phase of thinking, well, it’s not actually abuse. There’s no physical abuse happening here. It must not be abuse. But then when you break it down, when you look at the core of what’s happening, it starts to shift and you start to realize, oh, this is abuse. And I am being abused. It’s just a great tool. Anne: So I did not intend it to be a children’s book. I intended it to be a picture book for adults to help teach this complex issue. It’s been out at my house, and my kids love it, and they think it’s amazing. Of course, as the author of it, I’ve had the storyboard out and different versions of it. It’s A Picture Book, Is It Appropriate For Children? Anne: As the iterations progressed, my kids really, really genuinely love it. They love looking at the pictures. For me, this is my job. This is what I do all the time. And my kids, they’re familiar with this because I’m talking about it all the time. So for me, is it appropriate for my kids? I think yes. For women wondering, is this a book for kids or a book for teenagers? What are your thoughts? Jenna: I definitely think it depends on the situation, and I think each parent needs to decide if it is appropriate for their child specifically. Because every situation is different. I think that there is value in talking about our experiences with our kids. So the amount of detail shared may differ from one person to another. But I do think our kids are in tune with what’s going on. https://youtu.be/126Il6pSQPI They know that something is wrong when we are going through betrayal trauma, and when we’re going through abuse. They can sense that something is off. Even at a very young age, I think there is value in acknowledging that and maybe sharing some experience with them, so that they can make sense of what’s going on. Why Would It Be Appropriate For Children? Anne: If someone shares it with their children, the cool thing about it is that it’s appropriate. There are no graphic pictures. There’s no graphic language. Everything is kid friendly. There’s nothing explicit in it. Is it appropriate for children? Absolutely, is it a book for children? I don’t know. Parents will have to get it. They’ll have to look at it, and decide for themselves. I think kids will really like it regardless. So if they picked it up, I think they’d think, Oh, these pictures are pretty. Jenna: Now that we’re talking about this, I’m realizing you typically interview. And I’m just thinking, Wait a minute, we’re sitting in the wrong seats. Maybe we need to turn things around, and I need to interview you and ask you questions about the book. What do you think? Anne: Okay. Jenna: I just have questions that come to mind from my experience. What was it like to write this book? Anne: Well, it was hard at first because I wanted to show every scenario that could ever happen. The first versions were really, really long. They were too long. In the beginning, there were lots more illustrations. And so trying to pare that down was hard. Explaining Betrayal Trauma with Illustrations Showing The Vortex Of Emotions Victims Feel Anne: One of the reasons why I picked Cristalwolf as the illustrator is that I sent one page to several illustrators, and some of them sent back pictures that actually had exploitative material on them. Like someone was looking at an iPad, and the iPad had it on it. And I didn’t want anything like that. I didn’t want it explicit. I wanted it to be friendly and feel wholesome. When Cristalwolf sent hers back, I was like, “Oh, she gets it.” She didn’t include anything like that. It was clear. But then as we created the storyboard and went through, it was a lot harder than I thought to illustrate some of these concepts visually. How does an illustrator explain these concepts through art? So there’s Trauma Mama, right? And then there’s Dad. It’s sort of this vortex of abuse where sometimes he’s sweet and sometimes he’s on a rampage. And we were trying to figure out how to illustrate that difficult concept. A friend of mine said, “What about a tornado?” Anne: So Every single one of the illustrations Every single one went through multiple, multiple, multiple iterations. And then the words on every single page went through multiple, multiple, multiple iterations. Trying To Capture & Make Clear That Betrayal Trauma Is Abuse Anne: I wanted it to rhyme, and I wanted it to have a certain rhythm, and to explain betrayal trauma. I had this criteria that we had to use. So making everything fit within those parameters was a lot longer process than I thought. And I’m pleased with the result. I didn’t want to write a crappy book, I just didn’t. I wanted it to be good and help people immediately, because I thought if this isn’t clear, it’s not going to be helpful. The main problem with betrayal trauma, and trying to explain betrayal trauma and this type of abuse. Is it so difficult to understand what’s happening? Jenna: I think you achieved that goal. I can’t stop looking at the pictures. The pictures are so pretty to look at, but it’s so validating to read. And it just hits home. Like it feels so accurate. Really good job. You did great. What was the hardest part of writing this book for you? Anne: I think the process of writing this book was the same process that we all go through, in that we’re trying to figure out what’s happening and then trying to communicate that to someone else. So I’d say the hardest part of writing the book parallels, the hardest part of our experience of betrayal trauma. Which is that it’s difficult, even when you know what’s going on, to communicate it to someone else. The Journey Of Trauma Feelings & Emotional Abuse Illustrated Anne: Probably getting the emotions, right? The fear, the anxiety, and the worry. There’s a section where she sets boundaries, and figuring out the visual metaphor for what that would feel like took a long time. The process of writing the book explaining betrayal trauma, and the process of iterating these illustrations, helped me go deep into what I felt. It was almost like explaining to myself what betrayal trauma felt like. Throughout this whole experience, I had to close my eyes and remember how I felt. And then having to actually illustrate what that looked like for me and for all of us was like going back in time, emotionally. Jenna: That makes sense. And the nice thing is now that we have the book, it helps all the women who are having a hard time communicating their experience to other people and what it’s like. Now they have this great tool that they give someone and say, Please read this book. This is how I’m feeling. This is the best way to explain betrayal trauma. You’re helping other women go through that same experience. Many of the women you interact with daily are just discovering this addiction, or many have been in it for many years. But many of them are just now learning that they’re not crazy, and that there’s something called betrayal trauma. They’re just now learning some language, and they’re just realizing that there are other people experiencing this. And that there’s help and hope ahead. Trauma Momma Husband Drama Gives Women Relief & Validation, They Aren’t Crazy Jenna: And so this book would give them language, like the simple language, to narrate their story to explain what’s happening. When you read something that describes your experience, and you’re like, that’s what I’m feeling. I remember the first time I heard the term betrayal trauma, and I read a brief description of it. And I thought, wait, this is exactly what I’m feeling. This must be what I have or what I’m going through. But I remember feeling. Like this wave of relief that like there’s a term for it. There are others who feel this way, there is hope, because that’s one thing that the book describes. Like the pain of the betrayal trauma and the pain of people not believing you. Then it does more than that, because it takes it to the next level of saying, “Okay, that happens. But look what happens as she sets boundaries and establishes safety in her life.” For the women in our community going through this. I think that that could give them a lot of validation that what they’re going through is real, that they’re not crazy, and that there are other women who experience it. And it reminds them that this isn’t the end. They get to est…
Our TOPPODCAST Picks 
Stay Connected
