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"Everything Everywhere All At Once" Jun 19, 2023

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're analyzing the Oscar-winning film "Everything Everywhere All At Once." We discuss how the main plot line of jumping between different universes could be interpreted as representing themes of trauma, immigration, midlife crises, and parent-child relationships, particularly if one or both parties are suffering from a mental illness like depression. We hope you enjoy!InstagramTikTokWebsite[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fiori, a psychiatrist.[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyzed Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend.[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.[00:32] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. Hi.[00:56] Portia Pendleton: So welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts, the podcast. Today we will be talking about the Oscar winning awards, you know, receiving all star cast again.[01:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think we could call this a film.[01:10] Portia Pendleton: Film. Yep. Iconic, interesting, curious.[01:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Can you guys guess what we're going to talk about?[01:17] Portia Pendleton: Or it starts with an E. We're just, like, really teasing it everything, everywhere, all at once.[01:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's also a lot of every word starts with a vowel. It's just interesting.[01:27] Portia Pendleton: I actually used the title in therapy a couple of times, just talking about how an intrusive thought feels or someone experienced anxiety.[01:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it being like, everywhere, everything, everywhere all at once. Oh, my God, porsche, that's a genius. You are a good therapist.[01:47] Portia Pendleton: That's really fitting because that's how it feels.[01:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Especially I could imagine people with OCD with these intrusive thoughts and trying to resist the compulsive behavior. That's how it feels. Wow. Good for you.[02:01] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And so I don't know, what does that say about the film? Or how did they pick that title.[02:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: And what do they mean by that? Is that like, a reference to all the dimensions? I will say I watched this movie one and a half times. I tried to watch it again, but I just couldn't get through it before we recorded this. And I'm like, is this what it feels like to do acid, this movie? Or weren't you just sort of, like, really like, whoa, what is going on? At least that's how I felt watching it the first time, just kind of confused.[02:36] Portia Pendleton: I felt like it was confusing until I had the storyline with Joy and her mom to latch onto and mom trying to help or save her daughter. And then I was like, okay, now I'm in the movie. Now I get it.[02:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: So do you think there really are all those dimensions or that's, like, some say there are? Oh, you mean like some real people say they are? Oh, tell me about that.[03:04] Portia Pendleton: I don't know. I just think that a lot of people maybe it's even a little bit similar to spirituality, like, helping you view the world from a different perspective that's less pressurized. Or there's all these different versions of you. There's all these different universes. What could be happening? It's not that serious.[03:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, wow.[03:24] Portia Pendleton: I think it's just like a way of thinking about yourself. And some of my clients, when they're experiencing intense emotions or something that is irrational but feels really hard, it's like, okay, and we're just floating on a rock. Let's kind of shift the perspective a little bit, if you can, not to diminish your problems and feelings. But sometimes I think it's helpful to think of things like that. Other times, for me, I think it's overwhelming and a little scary.[03:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I feel, like, really anxious about that idea. That's really fascinating.[03:57] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.[03:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think we were trying to think about how to structure this episode, and we were struggling, which I think also just reflects the film.[04:06] Portia Pendleton: Right.[04:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: That it's so all over the place. You really can't predict what's going to happen next. She pushes those little headphones, and you're in the next place, and you're jumping from here. You got to be a gymnast to go here. And it's just, like, all over the place. But I think it's really fascinating, and I would like to watch it multiple more times, because I bet it's the kind of film where the more you watch it, I bet you get something different out of it every time. And I think from a mental health perspective, there's so many different lenses that you could analyze it through, which is just really interesting to me.[04:43] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, I think looking at it just from the storyline, I was laughing about just, like, the IRS looking so accurate. It's just so bland.[04:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: It just makes such, like, a headache.[04:55] Portia Pendleton: Right.[04:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think we can all relate to taxes. And Jamie Lee Curtis, as Deirdre did such a good job in her costumes. And the second time I watched it, I noticed she has all of her little IRS awards lined up on her desk, and they all look very phallic.[05:11] Portia Pendleton: Yes.[05:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'm just like, that makes sense because she's just, like, ******** people over left and right. It was just like those little details. And then when she eats the donut or she eats something, and it's really messy and all over the place, and it's just I don't know, it's just really interesting.[05:30] Portia Pendleton: And it's like she's the villain, but she's also the villain in their tax story. So it's like, is this even real? Is this all just a dream that Evelyn's having? Because Deirdre is the bad person and Joy is struggling. Joy is detached, and it's like, again, another lens to look at it through. Was this a dream? Is this a trauma response?[05:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is she disassociating? Did she take drugs? Is she having a midlife crisis? Yeah, you're right. Like, Deirdre is the clear villain, but then also, it's like Joy becomes the villain, and I think probably a lot of mothers feels that toward their teenage daughters, perhaps, or that you really get the sense, like they are just at odds, like they are just butting heads.[06:20] Portia Pendleton: And Evelyn, I think you get like they really feel disconnected. Evelyn's having a hard time understanding Joy or Jobu, and vice versa, like the depression, the drive, the relationship that Joy has with her girlfriend. And I think it's interesting. So, again, there's another storyline.[06:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is this just all about the mother struggles relationship? And also there's a clear cultural dynamic. And so I also thought, is this a commentary on immigration?[06:54] Portia Pendleton: Right?[06:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because we see they're, like, trying to have this big celebration for Chinese New Year, I think, in their Laundromat. And you see through flashbacks how Raymond kind of convinced her to come to America with him. And then her parents, it sounds like, disowned her. And I don't think they would, like, answer the phone and all this stuff. And then somehow now her dad, I think his name is Gon Gong, is that right? Is visiting or living with them in his older age. It's not really clear. And you just see her so flustered trying to please him. Like, he likes his rice this way, don't overcook it. And, oh, no, now he's awake and he's going to criticize this. Raymond, stop with the googly eyes on the laundry. You just get the sense that she has felt so criticized for making her choices. And then she in turn is very critical of Joy.[07:44] Portia Pendleton: Yes.[07:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And even like, in that early scene when Joy and the girlfriend are, like, leaving the laundromat and her mom, Evelyn, comes up to her and is like, you need to watch. What do you read? You're getting too fat. You're just like oh. Ouch. Yeah, ouch. And like, why did she say that?[08:05] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, and I think she, like, afterwards didn't like that.[08:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: She said that, right? Yeah. And I think, like, at least what I interpreted from the film is like, at the beginning, you really see those struggles between Joy and Evelyn, and you see how Joy is really struggling to introduce her girlfriend to the grandfather and their native language. And Evelyn steps in and introduces the girlfriend as a friend. And that's, like, again, really damaging to Joy. But then it feels like by the end, evelyn has come to this place of better understanding and more acceptance. And in that way, I was like, this could also be a commentary on intergenerational trauma or even just like the way you communicate in your family and how you can shift that for the next generation if you're willing to be open and understand where your kids are coming from and work on it.[09:00] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, the theme through it a lot was like, nothing matters. And that's a common feeling when you are experiencing depression.[09:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: And maybe for teenagers.[09:12] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, no, absolutely. And so one of the lines in the movie is, if nothing matters, then the pain and guilt you feel goes away when they're like universe hopping. Some of the other things that they say, you're so capable of everything because you're so bad at everything. What else? You're not unlovable. There is always something to love. Joyce says I'm useless and alone. Evelyn we're all useless and alone. There's just a lot of again, that perspective taking.[09:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's being like we all feel this way times. I think she's out of high school. She's I would say, like, early 20s.[09:54] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, maybe.[09:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: But still in that early adulthood phase, which can be so hard and scary and isolating. Especially if you feel so different from your parents or from your family of origin, which I think a lot of second generation Americans might feel. Right. Like if your parents are trying to assimilate into American culture, even, like, the language in the house or with Joy having to come to the IRS to translate and all this stuff, I feel like I do hear this from a lot of my patients whose parents immigrated but who've been in America since birth, that there is this tension. And of course there is.[10:37] Portia Pendleton: And there's also an inappropriate parentification, almost.[10:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Of the child because you can navigate the culture exactly, language in a different way. And even, like, in the clothing they chose for the characters and stuff like that. Joy, before she's, like, the evil person and all dressed up, looks more like, quote, unquote American in her jeans and stuff like that.[11:09] Portia Pendleton: How long would you say the first time you watched it? Did it take you to kind of get in and connect with any storyline?[11:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like I had this reverse thing where I felt connected and in it more in the beginning. And then as we kept jumping from universe to universe in the middle, I was really confused and having a hard time following it. And then near the end, like, when Evelyn and Joy are really coming back together, I was like, okay, now I'm back. But it was hard for me to follow, I think, just because it's such a different movie than I'm used to watching. And it's cool. It's just different. Really unique.[11:47] Portia Pendleton: Which, I mean, I think also speaks to why they won. I mean, what a concept. How do you come up with that? And I'm curious about the writers. Are we close or are we way off?[11:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: What was the message they were trying to send? Yeah, I don't know. And I loved the actor who played Raymond Gosh. Now, of course, from The Goonies and from Indiana Jones. And then, I guess, at the Oscars. Harrison Ford gave him his Oscar, which is like, what a full circle moment.[12:19] Portia Pendleton: So beautiful.[12:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Really cool. And, yeah, he was just really great in his role, too. Yeah, he did a great job.[12:32] Portia Pendleton: So one of the moments that I actually cried at was when they were rocks. Do you remember that?[12:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And how they kind of held hands as rocks.[12:42] Portia Pendleton: Yes. And they kind of, like, rolled over to each other. Yeah.[12:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think Joy was like, mom, you don't have to be so close. Am I remembering that right?[12:49] Portia Pendleton: The commentary between the two of them while they were rocks was, like, so beautiful. And I'm wondering if it was because there was nothing, right. It was devoid. So it was a universe where there was no light, there was no culture. Yeah. There was no barrier, no pain, just literally like, you're rocks, you're a rock. And is that why they were able to have the conversation that they were.[13:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Have they just connect?[13:14] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, because there was just nothing in the way. There were no barriers. There were no expectations. It was just so beautiful. And then I was like, I can't believe I'm crying at rocks, but that's how powerful the writing or the context or what kind of put that up to that moment for me. I was laughing after.[13:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, I agree. I had forgotten about that till you brought it up. But I did really love that moment, too. And then it's like, did all of that or any of that actually happen? Or was that like a journey Evelyn was going through in her mind, in a way, to try to connect with Joy? And was there something about Evelyn's dad being back in her life that sort of rocked Evelyn and made her rocked Evelyn? We were just talking about rocks and made her realize, like, it's now or never, like, I have to figure out how to connect with my daughter. I'm going to lose her, like, the way I lost my dad or, I don't know. Portia, what do you think? Do you think they really were in these universes, or is it a metaphor?[14:21] Portia Pendleton: I think it's got to be a metaphor just because some of it's so unbelievable and in a good way. Like when they have the hot dogs for fingers in one of the universes, in that universe, Evelyn and Didro together. Yeah, like romantically. And then they're playing out all these other interesting things that Evelyn does get a little caught up in someone in some ways. Like, one, she's this actress. Another one, she's an opera singer. Another one she I don't know, had stayed with her family. And then in another way, Waymond is like,…

Full show notes at the publisher

"Succession" Season 4 Jun 12, 2023

Show notes

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we analyze the final season of "Succession" with a focus on the (lack of) psychological development of the adult siblings (initially we wrote "children" - Freudian slip!). We also discuss the masterful portrayals of grief related to Logan's death, as well as the expert depiction of ecalating attachment issues and maladaptive externalizing behaviors in the face of such significant loss. We pay homage to some of our favorite supporting characters, including Greg, Caroline, and Willa, and the amazing music. We hope you enjoy!InstagramTikTokWebsite[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend.[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.[00:31] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. Gosh, Portia. I don't know about you, but I'm really going to miss this song.[01:26] Portia Pendleton: I know.[01:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: I really want to make it my ringtone for When You Call me. But then, like, what will other people.[01:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, they'll be like, who's calling you sociopath?[01:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, but it's such a good.[01:39] Portia Pendleton: Song, a raging narcissist.[01:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I don't know if you noticed, but somewhere, like, halfway through season four, when Kendall's, like, amping himself up to go into the office, the intro song was a little different. It had more of, like, a rap undertone. And I just thought that was so fascinating. I just think the music in this show is so good. And even, like, near the end with the Meal Fit for the King, they're sort of playing it, but in a more playful, childish way. It's just so good, and I'm really going to miss the song.[02:09] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, you hear it, like, softer, more sad, more exciting throughout, especially season four. I don't recall hearing it differently prior.[02:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: To and the other season, it's just so, so good. But we have a lot to talk about with season four. I don't even know exactly how to get started because so much happened.[02:28] Portia Pendleton: I know. Yeah. At the end of season three, right. We talked about Tom and kind of the whoa. Like wolf and sheep's.[02:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, for you, not for me. I knew it. I knew it.[02:40] Portia Pendleton: Tom just still feels like I don't even know. Like, I'm still not mad by him. I don't know why.[02:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think because he's charismatic. Like a true sociopath would be.[02:51] Portia Pendleton: He could be, like, a cult leader.[02:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'd be like I'd be, like, 100%. He reminds me of Tom Sandoval in the whole Vanderpump Rules scandal. Another Tom. Oh, my God. You're right. Never name your child Tom. If there's anything we can warn you against from this podcast, do not name them Tom. That's so funny. But yeah, I think he's such a snake. He is so slimy. He is so narcissistic. However, he's also charming, and he's definitely, like, more of a covert flavor where you might not pick it up as much as, like, Kendall, like, throwing himself a big party, just being ridiculous l to the OG. Stuff like that is way more obvious. But I think that's what makes Tom so freaking dangerous. And the fact that he can really just plow over anyone to get what he wants at the end of the.[03:46] Portia Pendleton: Day, and why he's successful 100%, and why the kids, which we will continue to call them, are not the children.[03:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: The adult, fully grown, forty s. Thirty.[03:58] Portia Pendleton: S, like fully adults.[04:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: But they are children. The kids ultimately aren't successful. It's so funny, right? Because I feel like everyone in the world has been waiting for the season finale of succession to see who finally gets waste arm Royko, who gets it, and then it's Tom. And of course it is, right?[04:19] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.[04:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: But we all thought one of these.[04:21] Portia Pendleton: Kids would finally or no one at all, right?[04:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: That all of them. It would just be Matson or something like that. But of course it's Tom. And it's so, I think, scary because I bet this is how it really works in politics and in the world. I bet people who are like the figurehead of power probably have these underlings that report to them and do their dirty work, right?[04:51] Portia Pendleton: Like Hugo.[04:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Hugo carl. Frank. Right. We saw them all kind of unravel a little bit with the threat of losing their job or with Matson taking over, like, again, trying to play the field, to hold on to their own power. But then we really see it with Tom and Matson and, like, that dinner conversation they had.[05:12] Portia Pendleton: And it seemed so, like, crazy to me when Tom was talking to Carl Frank and Jerry in the pantry, right, at the small funeral, after part, after party party, after reception at Logan's residence, where Tom's like, well, I'd like to throw my hat in. And I'm like, yeah, whatever, you sound crazy.[05:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then there you go.[05:39] Portia Pendleton: And they're all bowing down to him in the last but he can do that. I was thinking if Kendall got it, I think they all know that Kendall.[05:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Is a little tapped.[05:50] Portia Pendleton: Like, he's unwell, he's unstable and impulsive.[05:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Risky, and he's not smart. What business savvy does he have to be in charge? Like, none. Right. Again. And even, like, earlier on, wondering with Kendall's name underlined or crossed out? Underlined or crossed out.[06:09] Portia Pendleton: I saw some people got, like, tattoos of that. Yes.[06:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: What?[06:13] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I saw it online. Like, couple people got, like, tattoos of because I didn't know what the line because I was like, oh, the line's off.[06:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And I was like, that's a bad tattoo.[06:22] Portia Pendleton: But it was not.[06:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was a perfect tattoo, I guess. Wow.[06:26] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.[06:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Gosh. Wow.[06:27] Portia Pendleton: Getting tattooed committed, really session.[06:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's also, I think, what just fascinates me about the writing of this show, because they get it so right. I think we've talked about some other shows like you, where they get it really good, really right. They can really nail down these dynamics. But this show is, like, in a different stratosphere of accuracy, and not just with the dialogue, but the body language, the interactions. Every time those kids are around their mom, it's just perfectly acted and written, and it's like, I feel so bad for whoever on this team has a mother like this, because that's the only way, you know, I think, honestly, how to get it so spot on, and it just translates so well. You just feel it through your screen. And I think that's why we end up rooting for these kids, even though they're also awful. Yeah, it's wild to me, you're on.[07:23] Portia Pendleton: This ride where it's just like, I don't know, the highs and the lows. You hate, and then I'm rooting and then I hate, and then I'm rooting for them over and over and over.[07:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: And over and over. And also, the show is so intense and hilarious. It's so good with the wasabi in the eye on election night, and then.[07:41] Portia Pendleton: The lemon salts are burning.[07:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: And was this the season where Tom and Greg were the disgusting brothers? Is that starting at the end of season three?[07:52] Portia Pendleton: I don't remember.[07:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: But it's just so good.[07:56] Portia Pendleton: It is.[07:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's just so good. And I think, again, we end succession, and I feel like every single character is still exactly who they were at the beginning of season one. There's been no psychological growth, personal growth. If anything, they're all like a more externalized, ickier version of themselves, all the way down to, like, Jerry, Frank, Carl. I feel like the only ones who grew a little is, like, Jess, the assistant who quit, rava, who left, and maybe the girl with the bangs who was like, Logan's girlfriend.[08:35] Portia Pendleton: Carrie.[08:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Carrie, yeah.[08:36] Portia Pendleton: Maybe she's doing well. Maybe she's in therapy and, like, doing some work.[08:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I could see that she was the like, what? I know we're jumping around a lot, but at Logan's funeral with the four women in the front, like, what did you think of?[08:49] Portia Pendleton: I thought that was so unexpected and just, like, such a fabulous scene. I love that. Obviously, Marcia was so cruel to Carrie, and you get it. And then Caroline being like, this was.[09:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: My Carrie, and then they all kind of bond over it, and they're sitting in the front row altogether again. All those spectators can see all of those women together, and they can figure out what's going on. But then Marsh just like, lucy's not going to snort. Right. And they can all bond over it. It was just, like, so icky, but perfect and so humanizing and just like, wow, really interesting that they could all bond in that way. Yeah.[09:34] Portia Pendleton: So I think we should start with Kendall.[09:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay.[09:37] Portia Pendleton: He and the other two siblings are kind of working together post betrayal with Tom with their $3 billion and just trying to come up with all these companies and these ideas. The 100.[09:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God, what a lame idea.[09:52] Portia Pendleton: It was kind of comical to me.[09:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because I was just like, just take.[09:57] Portia Pendleton: The money and go live on board, start a little business. Why do you guys have to work together?[10:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Don't just go live your life. Right?[10:08] Portia Pendleton: And they still want so desperately to get back at their dad at this point. They're going to somehow kind of come in the back door and make the offer. They're working with that family to buy that other news station, and they're kind of going back and forth about it. Kendall seems to be trying to sabotage that deal. So Kendall's already starting to backstab Sharon and Shiv so they can't work together. And it's like, really?[10:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, it's like they always get in their own way. Yeah, right. But again, that is exactly what happens with people with these personality traits. Like no, Kendall is a raging narcissist. He can't be on a team of three, even if it's his siblings, even if it's in his best interest, even if that's what will lead to further generational for his children. He cannot he has to be number one. He is the eldest boy, after all, right? That is who he is through and through. So even here again, and it's notable that the only time the three siblings are like the Three Musketeers is when.[11:06] Portia Pendleton: They are totally.[11:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Ousted by their dad or totally exiled on the outside. That's the only time.[11:14] Portia Pendleton: And even with that, I would say they're only really on the same page when it's an intense emotion that they can all share. Right, so it's like betrayal. They are all betrayed by their dad, who sold is selling their company and their mom, and then they are all together in grief when dad dies.[11:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's such a good point, Portia.[11:36] Portia Pendleton: But it's like these little moments they're all together for when at the end, Shiv finds out that Matson is betraying her. And then they are like, no, we're going to vote. We're going to take it back. We're team Kendall. They're all together in that moment, but it's like such short lived. And then one of them can't do that, can't tolerate for whatever reason, but it's like something always happens. They can never be on the same page, actually.[11:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, Portia? And what a good observation that they can only align when they're each feeling the exact same emotion almost in the exact same way. But once sort of like that wave of an emotion starts to crash down or subside, and maybe other emotions start to bubble up or it becomes less black or white, and they're not totally seeing it and feeling it the exact same way, that now they can't be aligned, and it's very extreme. That's a really good point because it's.[12:31] Portia Pendleton: Like someone always sabotages it for whatever reason. And it's just like you guys can't ever just get it together. You can't ever get it. They can never either be empathetic towards the other one and do something without personal gain involved, which we know why, but there's no empathy.[12:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, it's so extreme. They are all such extreme. They have such extreme flavors of narcissism that you're right. They really can't like, Roman and Shiv cannot tolerate Kendall being the leader. They've never been able to from the beginning. That has been their downfall. You got to just pick one, right? And they just can't it has to be even like, when they were at the moms and Shiv was like, quote unquote, joking about murdering Kendall, I thought they might I would not have been surprised if they had. I really was like, they're going to do it. And I don't think she was joking. I think that's, like one of those.[13:26] Portia Pendleton: Times where she's already in slip in.[13:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: The waters to see, like, will Roman go along with that? I bet if he was going to go along with it, they would have done.[13:36] Portia Pendleton: Or if it would look good for the board, it would do something for Shiv and Roman, like, and maybe they, in that moment, were like, no, that would be like, another crisis and that would be bad.[13:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, I think, like, what they realized was it'd be really it's really hard to clean up a dead body. So unlike Goldberg, they did have that forethought. Right?[13:54] Portia Pendleton: So let's think about Kendall's reaction to grief.[13:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: That episode, I think it was episode three, where Logan dies on the plane, like, of all places, with Tom, of course.[14:06] Portia Pendleton: I know. So he gets to be there, right? Like, he gets to be a part of that. The chaos which all of his siblings, I think, would die to be a part of.[14:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: I have to say that was the only tim…

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"Shutter Island" Jun 05, 2023

Show notes

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are thrilled to be joined by Dr. Tobias Wasser, a forensic psychiatrist from Yale University, in analyzing the 2010 film "Shutter Island." Dr. Wasser explains how forensic psychiatry bridges the gap between the criminal justice and mental health care systems. He describes what it's really like to work on a forensic psychiatry unit and compares his experience to that depicted in the film. We also ask him to explain the difference between competency to stand trial and the NGRI (not guilty by reason of insanity) plea. He also shares his opinions about our favorite narcissistic psychopaths - Joe Goldberg, Logan Roy, and Tom Wambsgans. We learned a ton and hope you enjoy!InstagramTikTokWebsite[00:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Our channel.[00:10] Portia Pendleton: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist. And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend. There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts. And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn and your DSM Five and enjoy. Welcome back to Analyze scripts. Portia and I are super excited to be joined today by Dr. Tobias Wasser, who is an associate professor of psychiatry at the Yale School of Medicine. He completed all of his psychiatry training at Yale, including the psychiatry Residency program and two fellowships in forensic psychiatry and public psychiatry. He currently serves as the Deputy medical Director for Community and Forensic Psychiatry for Yale New Haven Hospital and the Assistant Chair for Program development in the Yale Psychiatry department. He's previously held leadership roles in Yale psychiatry residency program and for five years served as the chief medical officer of Connecticut's State Forensic Hospital. And most importantly, he was my chief resident for a whole day at the very beginning of my intern year. So welcome, Tobias. Thank you so much for coming and joining us today.[01:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, thank you so much for having me.[01:49] Portia Pendleton: So interestingly. I'm sure you don't remember this, Tobias, but I remember my very first day of psychiatry residency. I was on the inpatient psych unit. You were observing me do, I think, like, my very first interview as a resident, and I was interviewing a patient with a psychotic disorder. I don't think I'd ever really interviewed someone with one of those before. And afterwards you told me something that has stuck with me ever since, and I think is really pertinent to this movie you were telling me. And you were so nice in the way that you would tell me this criticism, but it's very kind. You were saying, you did a great job, but when you're listening to someone talk about their delusions, try really hard not to nod as they're talking. It's like a very natural thing to do. But if you're nodding, you're kind of confirming for them, like, yeah, this is true. This is true. What a perfect sort of clinical pearl to think about as we talk about Shutter Island today, right?[02:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, you're right that I don't totally remember saying that to you, but I guess maybe it'll make you feel better to know you're not the only individual to whom I've given that feedback.[03:05] Portia Pendleton: Good.[03:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: It is a common aspect of people learning how to practice psychiatry and mental health. So as you said, I think it's a natural reaction. So clearly it helped you.[03:17] Portia Pendleton: I'm glad it's but I just like that sort of popped in my mind as I rewatched the movie today, knowing you join us because in this movie, they do this whole weird experiment, right? And so I think before we dive in and really pick your brain on what it's like to be a forensic psychiatrist and what you think about this movie, portia is going to give us just a really quick rundown of the plot.[03:43] Dr. Tobias Wasser: So the movie came out in 2013 by Martin Scorsese, all star cast, all star director. We have Teddy Daniels, who is played by Leonardo DiCaprio. And then we have Chuck, played by Mark Rafalo. And so we see these two people kind of heading to this island where there's apparently this mental institution where the criminally insane are being held. And it opens up with vomiting, which we talk about this a lot.[04:12] Portia Pendleton: I was like, great, portia hates vomiting.[04:16] Dr. Tobias Wasser: And so they are going to kind of investigate someone who's missing.[04:20] Portia Pendleton: And they are state marshals.[04:23] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Yes, marshals. And so you kind of see them exploring the island. It looks really scary. And there's a few different kind of living arrangements, it seems like. One where more, I would say, like, peaceful patients are housed. And then another one that feels really gross and dirty and more jail like. And the movie does take place in 1954. So it's like post World War II, which I think is interesting with the differences in how we treat mental health. So we kind of see them investigating this crime or this person who's missing, as we have some questions of Teddy's mental status. So he has these migraines. There's some flashbacks to his time during World War II at some concentration camps. Really, really traumatic, it seems like some experiences that he's had. And then also these kind of flashbacks to this family, but then to this other wife without kids. And it's confusing. So I was kind of confused watching it at first. And then we see him kind of continuing to investigate and believe that there are these inhumane trials going on or.[05:41] Portia Pendleton: Clinical trials or like experimentation, almost experimentations.[05:46] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Kind of going on that we see, and he doesn't find any. And so the movie kind of arcs all of a sudden to where I initially thought, so this was the first time that I saw it, that he was being kind of like, pushed into insanity, quote, unquote. He was being given some medications. All of a sudden there's this part where it's like, well, have you been eating the food? Have you been taking medications from them? Have you been smoking your own cigarettes? And he starts to kind of feel.[06:14] Portia Pendleton: Like he was poisoned or something.[06:15] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Yeah. And so then all of a sudden, we find out that he is the test subject of this really immersive. I don't want to say well done, but well done.[06:30] Portia Pendleton: Well executed.[06:31] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Maybe set up for him in order to help his psychosis or delusions in order to kind of have him kind.[06:40] Portia Pendleton: Of come back, snap out of it.[06:41] Dr. Tobias Wasser: Which is his wife killed his three children and then he killed her.[06:46] Portia Pendleton: And so he is actually a patient.[06:48] Dr. Tobias Wasser: To make someone potentially have a psychotic break or experience some psychosis. So I will say that I'm probably going to take a little bit of a backseat to this episode. I think the only experience I have with psychosis is, like, drug induced. So it's not my poor kid. I don't think I've ever interviewed or come across a patient with non drug induced psychosis. So that's kind of the story of the movie. And I think it leaves off with two questions. Did they trick him? And that was a whole trick to kind of get him to stay there, or was he really a patient?[07:23] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I think he was the 67th patient that he was looking for the whole time. And then at the very end, I felt like the whole premise, once you figured out what was going on, was they were trying to restore his sanity once and for all with this elaborate hoax in hopes that he could avoid a lobotomy. Right? And then at the very end, you see him sort of slip back into his delusional way of thinking and go off to get the lobotomy. And I think actually he knew what he was doing. I think he sort of didn't actually slip back into that delusional frame of mind. I think he finally realized what had happened and didn't want to live with it. So it was really fascinating movie. I always love Leonardo DiCaprio, especially with a Boston accent. I'm just like, anytime. But one thing that hit me right away was just like, there's like this big, scary mental hospital in the middle of the ocean where you can't get to and we're going to play this big scary music, and there's rocks everywhere, and there's like, police everywhere. And just like this. It reminded me of Alcatraz in San Francisco, which was just a jail, I believe, not a forensic psych hospital. But I was just like, oh, my God. Just like, yeah. It's like, oh, God.[08:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.[08:39] Portia Pendleton: The mentally we're so scary. It just really right away really knocked you over with that intensity. What did you think, Tobias, about sort of the way they started off.[08:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So I think you're right about the ending. I saw Capri a really extreme form of denial, almost like choosing an extreme form of denial that once he knew what he had done, he didn't want to live with it anymore, and choosing surgical interventions to try to keep that out of his mind as far as the depiction of what the place looks like. So I definitely think you're right. It played into all of our worst stigmas about psychiatric hospitals. It's criminally insane and this scary island in the middle of nowhere, and that it has to be surrounded by miles and miles of water to prevent anyone from escaping. And I think also, Portia, your point about this is post night. This is in the 1950s, and so it's a very different understanding of what mental illness is at the time in any case. But I'll say as someone who, as Katrina you mentioned in the brief bio, someone who spent many years running a current forensic hospital, it's a very different experience than how it's been depicted in the movie. I think we often imagine these really horrible, scary places. And I will say there are aspects of it that align with my experience. But for the most part, we've come a long way in the 50 years. If that's what it really was like 70 years ago, we've come a long way. But I definitely agree that it was trying to really I think it was trying to immerse the viewer in experience of being terrified. And I think it succeeded in that.[10:26] Portia Pendleton: Yes, it did. So what parts of it sort of matched with your experience working in a modern day forensic hospital?[10:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, so I think part of it is what Portia alluded to with this idea that there might be different parts of the hospital. So that continues to be true today. So not all forensic hospitals are like this, but many of them will have what we call different services. So in Connecticut, for example, the hospital that I was a chief medical officer for, for five years, we did have two different services. We had what we called a maximum security service, which was for patients who are at a higher risk for violence or who may have engaged in more violent behavior before they came to the hospital or currently were engaging in unsafe behaviors. And that is more like a synthesis between a typical hospital or typical psychiatric hospital and a correctional setting. At least on the one in Connecticut. The walls are cinder block and in order to get in, you have to go through multiple layers of security and double locking doors. We call a Sally Port, like you're entering a prison facility. So there are layers of security to it that are similar, and the structure is somewhat similar. When you get on the unit, though, it looks more as opposed to in the movie where people are in jail cells and they're locked up, and it really looks like a jail facility. Once you actually get into the physical space where the patients are living, it's more like an inpatient unit. People have bedrooms, they don't have cells, they don't have bars on the doors. They can enter and exit as they wish. There are group rooms in which therapeutic activities occur. There's a shared dining space, there's television. So there are some aspects that are similar, but hopefully it's a little bit more humane when you actually get onto the unit. The one in Connecticut is a much older facility. It was built in 1970. So actually not long after this movie supposedly takes place. And there are a couple of much more modern facilities that have been built, one in Washington, DC. And one in Missouri, that are really picturesque, very aesthetically pleasing. They really focus on things that are supposed to enhance individual recovery, like access to natural light spaces and all those things. So the more modern facilities have really come a long, long way and they look nicer than some typical psychiatric hospitals. Not for forensic patients. And then the other aspect is going to say, so there is a second service, again, even in our own hospital, for safer patients, patients who have engaged in less serious violence, but for some reason have engaged in some kind of behavior that got them involved with the criminal justice system. And they require psychiatric treatment. And those settings, at least in Connecticut, looks much more like a typical hospital that you'd expect. And those patients actually are given grounds privileges. They can walk the ground, sort of like we saw in the movie, that they can walk around.[13:17] Portia Pendleton: Are they handcuffed like we saw in the movie? People would be like in shackles, walking around, but like their feet shackled up.[13:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's a great question. So no, they're not modern day because there's been so much emphasis on patients rights and advocacy movements for all patients, not just these kinds of patients. And maybe I should just take a step back to define what does it mean to be a forensic patient. So forensic really refers to in mental health or in psychiatry. It's talking about the intersection of psychiatry and the law. So when we talk about forensic hospitals or forensic patients, sort of like in the movie, they are typically places where individuals who've been found not guilty by reason of insanity. So they've committed a crime. They've pledged what's anecdotally called, colloquially called the insanity defense, meaning that they're saying they're not criminally responsible for their actions because at the time of the crime, they either didn't appreciate that what they were doing was wrong or they couldn't control their behavior because of a mental illness. They're found not guilty by reason of insanity, which is a horrible stigmatizing moniker, but it's still what we call it. And then they're sent for long term psychiatric treatment in a hospital setting.[14:30] Portia Pendleton: And then is the goal. We just released an episode about the movie side effects. I don't know if you ever saw that movie, it's also an older movie, but in that movie it seemed like the goal was to restore the character who was found not guilty by reason of insanity to sanity, so then she could go back to them, be tried. Doe…

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"Succession" Season 3 May 29, 2023

Show notes

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're analyzing the third season of "Succession" on HBOMax. In this episode, we continue exploring the evolution of the adult siblings with a focus on different manifestations of a "wounded narcissist" in Kendall and Roman. We also spend time exploring the theme of the Roman and Shiv being drawn to romantic partners who are psychologically similar to their parents. We unpack various betrayals that occured throughout the season, culminating in Tom showing his true colors. We hope you enjoy!InstagramTikTokYouTubeWebsite[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriend.[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.[00:31] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy. All right. Porsche, season three of succession. What a doozy.[01:02] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.[01:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow. Wow.[01:05] Portia Pendleton: Watched it really fast. And then I and then I tried to kind of rewatch it again because there was so much good content and character development and character crumbling and character everything.[01:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And some of the lines were so funny, but perfect. I think it was episode five where Logan has the UTI. I think that might be, like, my favorite episode of television. Ever.[01:28] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, ever.[01:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was so funny. Like, I'm going to watch it again after this.[01:33] Portia Pendleton: I need to I think you had sent me a text, and we're like, oh, my gosh, have you seen episode five yet? And I was like, no, I haven't, and just kind of, like, seeing all the different shenanigans take place. And even so funny as, like, yes, that he thinks that there's a cat underneath his seat, but then them having to keep running back and forth, giving Frank notes, he's like, stalling the shareholder, and they're just talking nonsense, and Greg's the one running back and forth with the notes.[02:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: So funny.[02:02] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I know.[02:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: I want to watch it again because it's so ridiculous. I feel like that must have been a fun one to film. And I feel like they were owed that. They have a lot of intense scenes. It was nice to see this. And just as a plug, perfect depiction of how UTIs can affect someone's cognitive function. So I had no idea.[02:25] Portia Pendleton: So please share.[02:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Why my gosh. So UTIs, urinary tract infections. As a psychiatrist, whenever you are evaluating, like, anyone, but especially an older person with rapid onset cognitive change, you check a UTI. Most of the time, it's honestly a UTI. It's some kind of infection. It really can affect them cognitively. I can't tell you how many times in training in the emergency room, we would get a consult for an 85 year old with, quote, unquote, new onset schizophrenia. Spoiler alert. That is not a thing. That is, like, less than 1% chance of someone getting schizophrenia for the first time at 85 years old. 99.99%.[03:04] Portia Pendleton: It's a UTI. So is it the age?[03:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I mean, when you're older, your system is just more fragile, like, more vulnerable to things. Oftentimes when you're older, you're on a lot of medications for, like, blood pressure, cholesterol, diabetes, bladder issues, all these other things which all the medications can have side effects, they can interact, and your system is just more susceptible to an infection. And that's one of the ways it can present. So it's super important to keep that in mind if you have older family members and they start acting differently. I mean, it can also have things like paranoia or hallucinations. Like he displays the cat and all this stuff. I was just like, this is perfect. This is so perfect. And you just need to start some antibiotics. But I just thought that was so just what a funny detail. And I love that episode.[04:00] Portia Pendleton: And that woman with the long, dark, dark brown or black hair and bangs.[04:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Who we see Logan, who's like her new secretary or something.[04:08] Portia Pendleton: She knows, right? She had she was also like, is she a nurse? Because she seemed so quick and on it with the medications and having them and knowing the side effects. I was like, what is her role? So maybe she has maybe that's a requirement, his assistance or maybe like medical training.[04:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, or maybe like, she's the only one who knows about his medical stuff.[04:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, she said he didn't want anyone else to know.[04:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And again, because I think this show is such a fascinating depiction of a narcissist aging where it's so threatening to your sense of self to be weak or vulnerable or inferior. And again, it's like, yes, he feels that way because of his personality traits, but also there is truth in that, like, in his role as head of this huge company that's, like, having a lot of financial issues, sort of having a hard time keeping up with the times and with streaming and all this stuff. He can't hear weak or vulnerable. We saw that in season one when he tries to go give a speech, and now we're seeing it here where he wants to, again, give a speech, but he's got a UT. And they're like, oh, you can't do that. Literally, I just loved how even then, the siblings are all like, well, dad has to agree with this. And so then Shiv calls off the deal, and then they're like, oh, no, dad is not in his but they.[05:34] Portia Pendleton: Like, almost I was surprised at how long it took them to get there.[05:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: To figure out that he wasn't okay.[05:40] Portia Pendleton: It was like multiple things were happening. And I was like, hello. Hello. Who's going to pick it up? That he's acting very strangely. And Tom is the one who's like, I think there's something wrong with your dad.[05:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe that's because Tom is removed enough where he can tolerate again, because it probably hasn't been safe for them to question their dad or be like, hey, dad, are you okay? You know what I mean? That's not like a safe thing to do. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, just a little plug UTIs. Can have significant cognitive effects, especially when you're older. Always get checked for UTI or make sure your family member is if they're older and have new onset cognitive changes. Like, we could save lives with this. PSA.[06:27] Portia Pendleton: That was news for me.[06:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, yes. Hooray hooray. This psychiatrist is so proud of that depiction. Anyway, getting away from urinary tract infections and back to season three. So quick plot recap. End of season two, I found myself, like, cheering from the balcony when Kendall did a total reverse and my jaw.[06:52] Portia Pendleton: Was on the floor, right? Yeah.[06:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: And you were like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I really didn't see it coming. I thought he was going to take the fall. He was going to be the blood sacrifice, as Logan says. How sick was that, too? In season two, they were all trying to decide who should be sacrificed.[07:07] Portia Pendleton: I know, but at the end of.[07:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: The day, I was like, I know it's going to be Kendall. Why are we even pretending? What's this?[07:12] Portia Pendleton: I think he was waiting for Kendall.[07:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: To step up or something. That's a good point. That's interesting to think about, too, now that in this season, tom stepped up to say he would take the fall to jail. It's interesting. I was so proud. And then I was like, why am I so proud?[07:31] Portia Pendleton: This is all so and we both kind of think and agreed that it seemed like Logan, even though he was being royally screwed, he seemed proud of Kendall.[07:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Because remember, Kendall was like, just be real with me, dad. You are never going to give me the company. Right? And he's like, you're not a killer. You could do everything you want, but you're not a killer. And again, it's like Kendall will never be good enough for his dad no matter what. So in a weird way, even though Kendall's saying he's trying to do good, he's not. I think he's trying to win his dad's approval by being like his dad. And in a way, I feel like Logan respects it, but can't tolerate it because there's no room for him. Right?[08:15] Portia Pendleton: Right. I think it has to be that way. It just fits the personality traits. We see Kendall then kind of doing more and more things in season three that just feel so different right. From season one. Kind of see his arc of turning just into seemingly more like grandiose delusional, detached from kind of a reality, in a way.[08:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. But I feel like that's probably who Kendall really is. I feel like in season one, it started off with him getting out of rehab. He was probably at his quote unquote best, like, trying really hard.[08:53] Portia Pendleton: He was clean during season.[08:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: He was clean. He was about to take the reins. He looked anxious a lot of the times, but I think he was doing the right thing. And now that hasn't gotten him anywhere. And in fact, his dad's like, you're never going to get the business because you're not a killer, right? So now he's like, fine, here you go. And I think he's sick of being this taking the fall for everything.[09:20] Portia Pendleton: And I think Kendall, if we think of him receiving treatment and being his best self, I don't think, as we have said before, it's safe for him to be his best self. So I think he's coping right now with substances because that's honestly what's safer. Unless he wants to totally estrange himself from his family, get out the shares, be bought out, take his money and go somewhere else and do whatever and do the work. Right? Then have the therapy, then kind of reestablish himself, then do the skills if he thinks he needs it, maybe some medications. But it's like, until that happens, if it ever does, which I doubt, I.[09:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Think this is his best this is how he survived. Yeah.[10:01] Portia Pendleton: This is how he's like, okay, right.[10:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: And just what? Mixed messages from Logan. Right? Because it's like, okay, I go to rehab. I'm clean. I'm doing all the businessy stuff. I'm showing up on time. I'm responsible. You say you're going to give me the company, then you don't. Okay, that's confusing. Like, why not? What am I not doing? Oh, I'm not ruthless enough or vengeful enough or things like that. Okay, so now I'm going to do that and still not getting right. What is it, dad? What do you want from me?[10:31] Portia Pendleton: And then I accidentally kill someone. And then you give me a hug and you call me your son and you bring me in, and then you abuse me and use me. And it's like he's reached this kind of breaking point where he's just I was himself in the best ability that he can be under substance use.[10:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think he feels so low and so insecure and so hopeless. I was worried this whole season that he was going to kill himself.[10:55] Portia Pendleton: So we didn't talk about this, but.[10:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: In season, I think it was two. I think I know where you're going.[11:00] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So he's up on the roof. There's a couple of scenes where he's on the roof and just looking over. And then I think it's the end of season. It's the end of one of the seasons, not three, where he finally goes back up there and there's this long right, clear wall put up, and it's like, who did that watching him? How did they know.[11:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: He'S thinking about it? I wonder, though, do we pick that up because we're therapists and stuff? Would the average person watching, seeing him look out, think like, I think you're thinking about suicide here.[11:38] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I feel like some yeah, just because I mean, it seems intentional. Like, it seems like we're supposed to.[11:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then they show you with the plexiglass or whatever it is. When I used to work for Yale, I remember actually, I didn't know this till I worked there, that in college. Mental health balconies and stuff like that are like a hot topic because they pose such a serious suicide risk for people being able to jump off the roof or jump off of this balcony or that balcony that people go around and measure the height and put up those plexiglass things and lock the doors to the roof and all these things that I never knew, but which make a lot of sense. So I don't know. It was interesting. Yeah, I definitely thought of that. And then the whole season, I was just like, again, he has narcissistic personality disorder. Kendall. I mean, they all do to some degree, but definitely Kendall. He has substance use disorder. Those co occur very frequently. He probably has some anxiety, which often co occurs. He might have depression, which often co occurs with all this stuff. His risk for suicide is so high.[12:47] Portia Pendleton: Given all of that and all of the environmental triggers. Right. It doesn't seem like he sees his kids much. It seems like he is aware that there's a lot of people using him. He's totally estranged in a very dysfunctional way from his family, even though he.[13:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: Feels that would be, like, the healthiest thing. But he keeps getting ostracized, and it's like, with each season, it's more and more and more, and this season it's really intense, where Logan tells the secretary, block his number for good.[13:17] Portia Pendleton: The birthday card.[13:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: The birthday card where he's like, Take your shares and **** off. But then that was all a ruse. That was all manipulative, right? Because then finally, at their mom's wedding, kendall sits down with Logan and is like, okay, I want to take you up on this. I want to get bought out and leave. Right? And, like, you're saying, Portia. I was like, Why didn't he do this earlier? Just get out already. And then he won't let him. I know he won't.[13:46] Portia Pendleton: I want to keep you close. Or what if I want to keep you close?[13:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: It was, like, so chilling, that scene between them, and even with Logan making his grandson try the food because he thought Kendall maybe poisoned him, when really the kids thought that earlier in the season. With the donuts, it's just like that degree of mistrust and danger they grew up with that constantly.[14:16] Portia Pendleton: Th…

Full show notes at the publisher

Side Effects May 22, 2023

Show notes

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we analyze the 2013 psychological thriller "Side Effects." Did ya'll remember that Channing Tatum was in this movie becauwe we didn't and it was a nice surprise! Too bad he died. In this episode, we explore Rooney Mara's portrayal of what we initially believe is major depressive disorder but then discover is actually manipulative behavior more consistent with malingering of a sociopathic level. We also discuss all sorts of medications and their side effects, including antidepressants, mood stabilizers, and antipsychotics. We hope you enjoy!InstagramTikTokYouTubeWebsite[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.[00:31] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy.[00:57] Portia Pendleton: Today we're going to be talking about side effects, which I had never seen before, which I think some people might find, like, shocking. This is like a movie about a lot. Therapy, mental health, medications.[01:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.[01:11] Portia Pendleton: So we're going to be talking about that today. I'm really excited, and I kind of just wanted to say briefly, wow. Like, Channing Tatum was in it, and I was like, is this why everyone watches the movie? Hello, Andrew Law?[01:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.[01:27] Portia Pendleton: How long did it take you to figure out who was running the show?[01:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: So I've seen this movie several times. The first time not till the very end. I remember being really surprised. What about you?[01:41] Portia Pendleton: Same.[01:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, right. I didn't get it the first time I watched it, I thought I think I thought this was supposed to be a medication side effect. And that was like the whole premise. And then when they got into the insider trading and all this stuff, I was like, oh, whoa. Yeah, I didn't see that coming at all. And then when I rewatched it before recording this episode, I remembered the plot. And so I was really watching Rooney Mars character a lot more closely to see if I could pick up on sort of subtle things that would suggest she was malingering. And they even used that word correctly, which is kind of feigning symptoms for what we call secondary gain, which means, like, to get out of work or to get money in a settlement or to stay out of prison or stuff like that. What did you think about Rooney mara's portrayal of what we think at first is a woman with depression?[02:41] Portia Pendleton: I thought it was great. I thought it also shows how we can be, like, functional.[02:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.[02:48] Portia Pendleton: So she's working, she is dressed well, but behind the scenes, like someone who's really suffering with kind of it appears, maybe more like major depressive disorders. She's having these episodes versus kind of more persistent depressive disorder, which would just be like persistent depressive depression with periods that you can also have major depressive disorder popping into.[03:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And they allude to again, I think we'll talk about her before the twist. So when we think she's just depressed and I'm saying just depressed, not to minimize the depression, but because there's more that comes out later, but I thought her eyes. She just looks subdued. She looks sad. She looks flat. She's not really super joyful. Even when they get him out of prison, she hugs him and stuff, but there's not a lot of animation there. And again, maybe that's just her personality, but she does have this suicide attempt where she rams her car into a wall in a parking garage, and when Channing goes to the hospital, he's like, oh, I thought we moved past this to suggest, like, this has happened before. And that's where she meets Jude Law's character, Dr. Banks, in the Er as the psychiatrist evaluating her.[04:08] Portia Pendleton: So what did you think of that?[04:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Who was he evaluating before her?[04:12] Portia Pendleton: Oh, the man who was kind of delusional. No, I'm sorry. He was not delusional.[04:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: He was Haitian. Yes.[04:18] Portia Pendleton: And so he had seen the ghost of his father driving a cab, and so he kind of attacked the cab.[04:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm glad I brought that up, because I remembered that's a good portrayal. I think that's something we do learn about in our training is putting the symptoms of various mental health conditions within a cultural context, because sometimes what we might think of in the American culture as delusional, like seeing ghosts of relatives who have recently died in other cultures, is not it's, like, normal in those cultures. So that was an interesting depiction of that. And again, an interesting depiction of a black man in New York City coming in and speaking a language the officer can't understand and wanting to sort of restrain him or punish him or take him to jail. And the doctor, in this case, being able to apparently speak French or Creole I think it was French and get a sense for what's really going on and keep him out of jail. So that's an example of not malingering. That's not malingering. That's like the law psychiatry or mental health interface, like, working appropriately.[05:32] Portia Pendleton: That was really great, and I thought it was just, like, a good check mark for him, for his character.[05:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And then now that we're talking about it, like a really interesting juxtaposition to him then moving next door, wherever, and evaluating Emily. Again, a white woman, someone later calls her, like, a fragile bird, attractive and just I guess you're right. I do pick up a lot on the background or the setting. I didn't love that. He didn't close the curtain right away. He starts the interview standing over her. I didn't love that. Just, again, like, a man towering over you and you're feeling really emotional and vulnerable. I don't love sit down so you're level. Don't get too close, though. I like that he didn't get too close. I think eventually he sat. Eventually he closes the curtain. I thought his line of questioning was pretty good in the way that she was saying, like, oh, my head hurts. They said I might have a concussion. And he's like, well, we got to wait for the CT scan. How's your head been lately? That's kind of weird. That's kind of a clunky thing to say. He didn't introduce himself as a psychiatrist right away. I'm not sure why or if that was intentional to see again. Maybe he already suspected she'd withhold things. If he did so, maybe he wanted to see if she'd reveal anything before she knew. That. That, to me now that I'm saying it should have been his first sign that something was off here. He says to her, usually when someone's in a car accident, there's skid marks. You try to avoid hitting the wall, but you went right for the wall. So to us, that suggests a suicide attempt. I can't believe she wasn't hospitalized.[07:27] Portia Pendleton: Well, that was what I was thinking. I was like, she didn't come in with kind of a thought of suicide and now is presenting, after waiting in the air for many hours as safe and has a caregiver or a partner and is evaluated and is sent home and non hospitalized. That happens a lot. Maybe sometimes it shouldn't, but this was an attempt, and this was a really serious attempt.[07:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like she rammed her car into the wall. I thought, though, that they did a good job portraying what we sometimes look for, which is called future oriented, like having plans for the future. Like, oh, no, I can't be outside. I have to go to work tomorrow. My husband just got home. I can't do that. At the same time, when I was working in Ers with evaluating patients like this, I don't care how future oriented you are, when you ram your car into the wall, you need to be hospitalized. And the fact that she was able to talk him out of it when that was his first instinct to me is, like, in retrospect, red flag number one. Yeah, right. The fact that she's like, you have an office, right? I'll come see you a handful of times.[08:33] Portia Pendleton: And to me, that was red flag number two, because I don't think that that happens often. I don't know of the ethics behind it, but I just don't think that that's typically available.[08:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: No. Right.[08:47] Portia Pendleton: Like, you'd be referring to, like, a PHP partial hospitalization program, tense about patient program through your hospital. You know what I mean? That would be the treatment exit.[08:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not just like, I just ran my car into the walk. I'm going to go see an outpatient psychiatrist. That's not an appropriate level of care for that severe thing that just happened. I think you need at least a couple of days. But again, unfortunately, this should always happen, right? Unfortunately, there's not enough hospital beds. Patients wait and wait and wait in the Er forever. Sometimes insurance won't cover it, even after something like that. I'll never forget my training, working on the inpatient child unit and being told by insurance it was my job to do the peer to peer review because they were denying ongoing a hospitalization for like a twelve year old girl for suicidal thoughts and depression because she hadn't actually attempted anything. So they thought we should discharge her. And it was like, unreal that they told us they're not going to pay for it because she hadn't made an attempt drives me nuts. But anyway, she had made an attempt. She should have been hospitalized. So the fact that she was able to manipulate him into going against his better judgment by appealing to well, I'll see you in your practice. I couldn't tell if he was affiliated with the hospital. It didn't seem like it. It seemed like he was like what we call moonlighting or like picking up.[10:11] Portia Pendleton: Side shifts, which he does talk about later because he's working all these multiple jobs.[10:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly. So maybe he's like, oh, a patient, oh, a couple of times a week maybe it seems like he needs the money. And then we sort of start seeing her meeting with him. And again, the boundary crossings just continue our favorite. So, yeah, we see her starting to open up to him. He starts talking about medication, which again is is warranted. Yeah. When someone presents with significant symptoms of depression status post a suicide attempt, I think that's when she brings up Dr. Seabird's name, which is played by Katherine Zeta Jones, and she gives consent for them to talk to each other about her case, all of which is normal. And then somehow he sees Dr. Sebert at, like it looks like a pharma. By pharma I mean pharmaceutical company, like dinner or talk or something. And Dr. Sebert like, very casually mentions, oh, oblixa, I did write down, being a psychiatrist, the medications Dr. Sebert said she had tried Emily on, wellbutrin, Prozac affects her, and she apparently had problems with sleep and nausea. So that's interesting because those can be common side effects. And we have medications in different classes. We have Prozac, which is an SSRI, effects are an SNRI, and then Wellbutrin, which has a different mechanism of action in which we think of as sort of in this category of medications called like, atypical antidepressants, which just means, like other they work in different ways. So looking at that, my thought as a psychiatrist is did she have adequate trials on any of these? Like, could she tolerate them long enough to see did they really work because these medications take several weeks to kick in? Or did she stop them pretty early because of side effects? Problems with sleep and nausea are really common early side effects that usually go away if you can stay on it and you can prescribe things to sort of help with that in the early stages. It's weird to me that she was only on one SSRI. Then we jump and again, I'm assuming we started with Prozac because that's typical practice, but maybe we didn't. But then you jumped to an SNRI then you jumped to this other thing. It's pretty atypical to jump around so quickly. And then it sounds like she was taking, as prescribed by Jude Lav's character Zoloft, 100 milligrams, which is a pretty high dose. So pretty high to get to 100 so quickly. Those are kind of my thoughts.[12:47] Portia Pendleton: Is that dosage more like along the lines of an OCD patient?[12:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not quite. That's a great question. So usually, like with Zoloft, you start around 50. You could start lower if you've never been on medication before to help ease the side effects as you're starting them, or if it's like, a young person or really thin person, you might start lower. 100 is, like, a pretty good dose for depression. I think the way it was depicted in the movie, I just felt like they got there really quick, which, again, you might want to given the severity of her suicide attempt, but usually you might go a little slower. But maybe again, I'm just assuming this was, like her first dose was 100. OCD definitely responds to higher doses of SSRIs compared to things like anxiety and depression. So for Zoloft, the therapeutic windows anywhere from 50 all the way to, like, 400 milligrams for OCD. Oftentimes people with OCD end up somewhere between two to 400, depending on the situation, but 100 could do it. Okay. Some other early boundary crossings that we see between Emily and Dr. Banks first, not hospitalizing her. The second, I would say, is when she found him. It looks like in it looks like maybe like some common area. So his office must be near the hospital or something. Almost gave me the vibe of, like, a cafeteria or something like that atrium that's right where he was sitting with his wife, who was preparing for a job interview, and he gives her a Pranal, and I thought, oh, gosh, he doesn't have great boundaries. You should never prescribe for your spouse or for someone you know? I mean, do do doctors do that sometimes? I'm sure proprietary is a pretty benign medication, but I think it just speaks to his own poor boundaries and why a patient like Emily might be able to sort of sniff that out and use it to her advantage. So all of a sudden, he gets a call with Emily kind of rambling on the phone, I think after she had tried to maybe jump in front of the subway train. And then the officer saved her at the last minute. But then she shows up as he's.[15:09] Portia Pendleton: Trying to his wife staring at a poster of oblixa right in the train station for a while, just like looking at it. And then she kind of walks over.[15…

Full show notes at the publisher

"Succession" Season 2 May 15, 2023

Show notes

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're diving in to season 2 of "Succession" on HBOMax. In this episode, we explain the core features of narcissistic personality disorder and discuss how these traits show up in different ways in each of the main characters. We also use the main characters to compare and contrast overt vs covert narcissism, and explore the connection between narcissistic traits and early childhood trauma (particularly abuse and neglect). We hope you enjoy!InstagramTikTokYouTubeWebsite[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.[00:12] Portia Pendleton: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.[00:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.[00:23] Portia Pendleton: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.[00:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.[00:32] Portia Pendleton: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.[00:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.[00:39] Portia Pendleton: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM Five and enjoy.[00:55] Portia Pendleton: So here we are today kind of talking about succession season two, and I have a million words, and none like, I yes, very, you know, we we had to kind of meet and break down.[01:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: You know what's interesting? That's very black or white, all or nothing. And a lot of what we're going to be talking about today is narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder. That's how people with these traits tend to feel things and see things. Just as I'm analyzing us analyzing this show, I just want to point that out.[01:24] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. I think the most helpful way that we kind of tried to think about.[01:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: How to talk about all of the.[01:31] Portia Pendleton: Things that happened in season two is, like, kind of sticking to some bigger themes.[01:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.[01:35] Portia Pendleton: So we're assuming that if you are listening to this episode, you've watched the season, so you don't need a recap. You don't need to know our thoughts on financial information. That is not our specialty.[01:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't really have a lot of thoughts. I'm still trying to figure out what is a shareholder and why do they fly to all their private islands? But we're not going to figure that part out.[01:56] Portia Pendleton: Right.[01:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: So just to give a quick recap in season two, it opens with Kendall and some fancy pants hot tub, which we're assuming is like some kind of rehab, right? Yes. So his dad offered to kind of COVID up the deaths at the end of season one and return for Kendall sort of backing off the hospital takeover publicly. And he says, I'll cover your rehab. Like, go and get well. And then, oh, just kidding.[02:22] Portia Pendleton: I need you to come 48 hours.[02:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Later to a press conference and sort of tell everyone that you made a mistake. And actually, I am all good. Right. And then the way the rest of the season kind of unfolds is Kendall's arc with addiction, and we'll get into that a little bit more as well as the waste star, Royco tries to sort of make a deal with Pierce Global Media because they have that huge billion zillion dollar debt. And then the scandals at the cruise line come out, and we see them sort of facing a reckoning.[02:55] Portia Pendleton: So we thought it was helpful to kind of just think about Logan, and we were kind of commenting on why didn't we talk about him as much in season one? We spent a lot more time just talking about the kids chicken, I mean, I think makes sense. But Logan we see in this season, just like he makes me feel a lot of different feelings.[03:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: I have a hard time watching him. A lot of the times I think Brian *** is a really wonderful actor, but I kept being worried about Brian *** acting in this role and wondering, is he okay? Because he's having to do some really awful things, like physically hurt people, get one over on people. He screams all the time. That just must be a hard set.[03:41] Portia Pendleton: To be I'm just thinking of his internal, I guess, brian and Logan, the character, like, how high is his cortisol level? Right? He's constantly screaming. Screaming and stressed. And it's so intense. And every decision he makes is worth probably bazillions dollars. It's very stressful.[04:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Very stressful. And so I always wonder about this in Hollywood on sets and stuff like this. Do they have massage therapists on staff? Or, like, a quiet room you can go to to decompress or, like, therapists on set to just be like, how does that feel for you? That was a really tough scene and yeah, I'm just always curious about that.[04:20] Portia Pendleton: I imagine they must you think? I think so.[04:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like that's a better use of money than craft services. All the food.[04:28] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.[04:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Sorry, I interrupted you.[04:31] Portia Pendleton: No, I think I've heard somewhere about some show or movie that was pretty disturbing and maybe it was even, like, something more along the lines of, like, a sexual assault. And there were therapists on there to kind of pull people out and be like, how are you feeling right now? And ground them in the present that this isn't really happening. Right. Because I think I never thought about that until this podcast of just, like, the really intense scenes for actors and how they manage to cope with them.[05:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: And even I'm thinking the writers, like, someone, if not all of the writers, have got to have a parent like this or something to get it so right. Get it so right. The dynamics and the ickiness and someone's got to have some sort of personal connection there because it is just so right. And the way that we see the relationship between Logan and his children and the relationship amongst the children sort of evolve and develop over time is so nuanced, but spot on.[05:31] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.[05:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I wonder if that has contributed to why this show is so wildly successful. Again, because it's not a lot to look at. It's a lot of white men in suits.[05:42] Portia Pendleton: It's a lot of just, like, jargon that I think most people are super familiar with every single thing that they're saying.[05:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly. And so I think it is successful because of those dynamics and the emotions. The characters are portraying. And as well, I think, stirring up in the viewer. Yeah.[06:03] Portia Pendleton: So one thing that we did not talk about, which both of us now are analyzing of ourselves, is seeing Logan in the pool in season one with pretty significant scarring on his back.[06:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I know. I thought that was fascinating. As we were preparing for this episode, we were like, okay, let's jot down some thoughts. And that turns out to be like five pages of thoughts because it is a lot to keep track and we really want to focus on our take rather than sort of a recap of the season. And I just thought it was interesting that neither of us brought that up last time. Right. So one thing we've talked about before, specifically in our episode about incanto, again, very different vibe from this show, but this is a different type of portrayal, I think, of intergenerational trauma and the way that gets trickled down from one generation to the next. Right. And so we're seeing Logan, the patriarch of this family, who I think meets criteria for what we would consider like a malignant narcissist. What do you think, Portia?[07:04] Portia Pendleton: I think so.[07:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: And we'll talk a little bit about narcissism. When we think about narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder, there's the way we kind of use it in our culture, like, oh, I'm such a narcissist. I love to take selfies, or things like that. But what it really means clinically is something different. The way I kind of think about it is people with narcissistic traits or narcissistic personality disorder have a really insecure sense of self. At the end of the day, that's sort of like the core wound, and they're constantly relying on external feedback and validation to boost themselves up and feel good. So, again, getting back to that black or white way of thinking and feeling, people with these traits have a really hard time sitting in that gray zone feeling good about themselves and remorseful for maybe things they've done simultaneously. It's really one or the other. And a lot of times these people put down everyone around them to keep themselves kind of up on a pedestal. Right.[08:06] Portia Pendleton: And what better even way to do it than being the chairman of a board? You see it play out in his business role. You see it play out in his family, in personal relationships that seem to kind of go hand in hand with business. But wherever he goes, he is the best guy out there. Everyone wants to shake his hand. Everyone wants to know him. People are afraid of him. He just has so much power.[08:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: So much power. And again, it might not come as a surprise that there is a high degree of people with narcissistic personality traits or disorder in positions of power. Right. That's how you get there. And there is some thought about even like a subtype of people with these personality traits as being high functioning and using that unconsciously, I'm pretty sure, to their advantage to get where they are. Right. So these are people who, like you said, like Logan, always has to be number one, always has to win, no matter the cost, has very superficial relationships personally and professionally, and really only sees people like his children, like his colleagues, as means to an end. So they're really like chess pieces that he's playing to get what he wants in the end. And we really see that unfolding in this season. And the way he manipulates and plays the kids off of each other for his own game, that's really painful for me to watch.[09:27] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. I think it can make you have, like, a physical reaction. I mean, some of the things that he does with Kendall, I think specifically, it's like you almost think about it if you put it on paper, it's like, okay, this father is covering for his son, and it's like, okay, but.[09:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Why not the goodness of his heart? Because he loves him, to protect him, but because that's how he's going to get what he wants. Right. And you see that unfold in such a sick, sick way.[09:55] Portia Pendleton: And you see Kendall throughout season two just really be a shell of himself. And I think, again, like, thinking of the narcissistic traits, it's like Kendall has lost his position of power entirely, I think. I thought it was so just like a really good scene where he comes back from making that TV appearance and he hits the nosebleed. He makes the TV appearance, then he goes back to New York and he holds the door for everyone, leaving a meeting. He's just standing there holding it, and no one's really saying thank you. And he would never do that before. Right.[10:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's a less than.[10:32] Portia Pendleton: He's nothing. And I just thought, like, wow, and.[10:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: How quickly it can shift. I know, it really gives you chill.[10:38] Portia Pendleton: It's hard to watch.[10:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's why I just think I wish I could interview the creators, the writers, the actors. Like, how did you guys get this so well? Because it flips on a dime for Logan. Right. And that is exactly how people with narcissistic personality disorder view people is. It flips on a dime depending on whether they're sort of on the good side of the split or the bad side of the split. And if they're doing what you want them to, then they're good, and you're showering them with attention, and if they're not, they're nothing. And that competitiveness between Logan and Kendall is just so intense. We really see that Logan, I think, is really threatened by Kendall, and yet Kendall just can't take it to the finish line. No, that's like his Achilles heel. He always gets, like, close and then it falls apart. Yeah.[11:32] Portia Pendleton: And I think it's almost like his I thought Kendall was the character more intelligent right away in season one.[11:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.[11:44] Portia Pendleton: Like, I thought that he was very, very smart.[11:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, he was the one who maybe had experience compared to, like, Roman and Shiva honor. But now you're like no, I mean.[11:53] Portia Pendleton: Really, throughout this season, I was just, like, really surprised about how some of the decisions that he makes and I think even more in other seasons, maybe season three, he just came. Across in season one and two. At times, like, really poor at taking feedback while he's not being absolutely crushed by the guilt that he has. But he doesn't really seem that intelligent, actually, to me. Seems like he's just kind of makes decisions quickly. Another kind of narcissistic trait. You don't take feedback well. You don't like people telling you what to do. I think you need to to a degree, which I think Logan, in a way, has figured out a way to have the best of the best around him. And I think maybe he takes not feedback, but ideas from others and then claims them as his own.[12:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, exactly.[12:41] Portia Pendleton: And I don't think Kendall is smart enough to do that.[12:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And so I think, again, narcissism is hard to break down. I think it can be hard to explain to people. It's really hard when you're relating to someone with these traits because you really feel like you're in the Twilight Zone and your sense of reality is so warped. And I feel like that just reflects the actual person with these traits sense of reality. But I guess the core features would be this sense of grandiosity, this sense of specialness uniqueness that you're kind of above everyone else and you can only associate with other special, unique people this excessive need for admiration, again, to sort of build up your own sense of self worth. Very superficial and exploitative relationships. People are really just objects, again, that you're moving around as a chess piece.[13:28] Portia Pendleton: And we see that multiple times. Like season one, the baseball game, all the employees there when Kendall fires that whole falter.[13:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. And a true lack of empathy. However, some people with narcissistic traits, and I think Logan fits this, can display, like, fake empathy, where they make you sort of feel like they're understanding you, when really it's more like this data collection that they're figuring out who you are and what makes you tick in order to then use it against you later. And that's the kind of stuff that gives you the X and sends a chill down your spine. Some other pretty common features of narcissism th…

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Wellmania May 08, 2023

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we're analyzing the Netflix series "Wellmania." We love how this comedy portrays various forms of toxic wellness culture. In this episode, we explore everything from gurus to sexual liberation. We also plug Dr. Pooja Lakshmin's new book "Real Self Care" as a resource to explore authentic self care practices, rather than expensive, ineffective "quick fixes." We hope you enjoy!

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"Succession" Season 1 May 01, 2023

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Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we analyze the first season of the hit HBO Max series "Succession." We spend most of this episode getting familiar with each of the main characters and the toxic Roy family dynamics. We explore themes of covert vs overt narcissism, attachment, substance use disorders, personality disorders, and toxic entitlement. We also explore the expert portrayal of ineffective family therapy, as well which behaviors of the adult children stem from child abuse and emotional neglect. We hope you enjoy!Analyze Scripts InstagramAnalyze Scripts TikTokAnalyze Scripts YouTubeAnalyze Scripts Website[00:17] Portia Pendleton: Hi, welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. Today we are so excited to finally be talking about succession.[00:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Finally. Oh, finally.[00:25] Portia Pendleton: Succession. Season one, which is on HBO, max, huge show for them, like big time. Their last season is currently being released right now. Every Sunday, I think, right?[00:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think every Sunday. And we are such journalists that we are watching all four seasons this month. And we will be releasing one episode a week per season, every other week with some movies and other things thrown in. But boy, oh boy, I don't know how I've been sleeping on this show.[00:56] Portia Pendleton: It's so I know I have had so many people personally and then even on our Instagram page be like, you need to do succession. You need to do succession. And I really will say at first I didn't think I was going to like, me too.[01:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: The first two to three episodes, I was like, oh, snooze yeah.[01:11] Portia Pendleton: Feels a little dry. Feels like a business, small political, a.[01:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Lot of navy and black and a lot of boring. And it also just left me feeling icky right away. Like, this is capitalism and I don't really need to see this anymore. And I already suffer the consequences of capitalism.[01:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So I can say we're not going to talk about season two, but now I'm like, I just finished season two and I'm obsessed with this. I really am trying to slowly watch it because it's so good and pick up on all the characters and all the storylines and all of the kind of like real life things. I was thinking kind of automatically in the first couple episodes when I wasn't that into, it was like, okay, in real life, who owns what, right? Like, this is a big conglomerate of a media corporation and you see that different. A couple of people own everything. So we were both kind of saying it reminds us of like Disney and who? Disney. And all of the things that they do. Their Hulu partnerships. Discovery partnerships.[02:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: ESPN. Yes. Lucasfilms with like Star Wars. How there's the theme parks, the cruise line.[02:23] Portia Pendleton: Right.[02:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I kept wondering, is this based on some big time media family?[02:28] Portia Pendleton: Right.[02:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: I didn't get a chance to look into that. But Portia, I think you looked up some interesting facts.[02:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So unsurprisingly. There are about 15 billionaires and six corporations who own most of the US. Media outlets. So the biggest ones are at and T. What Comcast? The Walt Disney Company National Amusements, which includes Viacom, CBS News Corp. And Fox Corporation, which are both owned by the Murdochs. Not the same Murdochs.[03:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Who are the Murdochs from that South Carolina documentary? Not those ones, but the other ones. Yeah, it's a toss up.[03:09] Portia Pendleton: It's a similar name. It's an interesting name. Yeah, so I thought that was interesting. And then Sony and Hearst, I guess they're smaller.[03:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Wow. I feel unwell learning that. So much of the media that we see is owned by a handful, two handfuls of people.[03:33] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.[03:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: That's kind of scary.[03:35] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.[03:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm curious what you thought, Portia, but as a psychiatrist, I was really fascinated by the family dynamics. And I was so thrilled when they showed them doing family therapy at the end, which we'll talk about in a little bit, but just getting a sense of what are these long standing dynamics that are really coming out as we see Logan, the patriarch of the family, maybe retiring, but maybe not. And like, who's going to get the company, right?[04:05] Portia Pendleton: Right.[04:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: So Logan has four children. I kept wondering, what is their birth order? Did you figure this out? I think Connor is the oldest, and I wonder if he has a different mom. I think he does because he's kind of more aloof. And then we have the three other children, kendall, Roman and Siobhan. I kept wondering if Roman and Siobhan were twins or like, I think Kendall's second oldest and like the first oldest of his nuclear family. And then Roman and Shiv, I couldn't figure out who's third, who's fourth. Are they twins?[04:41] Portia Pendleton: I feel like they are probably very close in age, if anything. I got the vibe that Roman was younger, but I think it's just his personality and maybe a defense mechanism that he uses. But, yeah, I think it's definitely like a patriarchy family. Logan, it seems like, came from nothing and kind of started this entire company himself, so has a very different view of the world.[05:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Kids do.[05:11] Portia Pendleton: I mean, in the wealth depiction is extreme. You are only flying private. You have 20 homes, you call it. You don't have to when you water for yourself ever. I mean, it's like that.[05:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're doing well. Real.[05:27] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.[05:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: No, this is this crazy rich. And again, probably on par with the people, the families who own these media companies.[05:34] Portia Pendleton: I think that he still, to a degree, has an awareness of the world that his children do not. That they are kind of silver spoon fed and have really no regard in.[05:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: A lot of ways for people.[05:47] Portia Pendleton: I mean, the baseball scene, right?[05:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: It made me disgust.[05:53] Portia Pendleton: Me too.[05:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like, I don't know if I'm going to like this show.[05:56] Portia Pendleton: Yes. Because it was early on and I was like, I don't like this.[05:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: That was disgusting what Roman did with that little boy. And then you see them paying them off, and you see that a lot throughout season one is when they've had bad behavior. They pay people off, get them to sign an NDA. I thought Kendall really hit the nail on the head sort of like midway through season one when he was telling his dad, like, you're so jealous of what you've given your children. I think there's a lot of truth to that. So these are people who are like, uber wealthy. They're in a different stratosphere they all have these insane apartments in New York City.[06:35] Portia Pendleton: Huge egos.[06:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Huge egos.[06:38] Portia Pendleton: No awareness.[06:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: No very limited awareness.[06:40] Portia Pendleton: Even.[06:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, at first I thought Shiv might have some, and then as we got to the end, I was like, no, not her.[06:46] Portia Pendleton: I feel that way back and forth with everyone. And one of the characters that I don't feel that much like he is just out of this world is Kendall. And I'm wondering if it's because of his substance use issues. I feel like that really humanizes him for me. And maybe whether it's through I don't know if he's had any substance abuse treatment or it sounds like he's been.[07:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: To rehab a time or two.[07:12] Portia Pendleton: And even his fellow substance use comrades, it's just something that affects everyone, regardless of your socioeconomic status. So I think I don't know if that gives him just some little extra viewpoint of the world that I don't think anyone else appears to have of his siblings.[07:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, no, probably. I think yeah, you hit the nail in the head. It does humanize him. I was so sad when he relapsed and I was really sad he relapsed with Smirnoff and then went right to math. I was like, oh, wow, it's really ratcheting up very quickly. And that is a good point, Portia, that substance abuse can affect anyone from all walks of life. And actually the rates are higher in licensed professionals compared to the general population, which most people are shocked to find out. That's something I used to tell a lot of people when I'd see them in the Er. And maybe they're a fellow mental health worker or a doctor or an attorney or a social worker or a teacher or physical therapist or what have you, that the rates of substance abuse are higher in people who hold some sort of professional license. So it isn't that more education, more socioeconomic resources necessarily shield you from that. And I think we see a lot of that in teenagers who maybe grow up in really affluent communities with less supervision. Like I'm imagining these four had growing up. I don't know. I just wonder what their attachments were like to anyone. Did they have a nanny or they must have had nanny, something that they felt connected to. We haven't met that person yet.[08:58] Portia Pendleton: And I don't think I mean, in my opinion, based on me making up their childhood, I feel like they probably didn't have as good as an attachment they could have with a nanny. And maybe it's because nannies were fired regularly or like there was a high turnover because the expectations were so unreasonable. Because I know people who have nannies and opairs come in, have strongly attached childhood, don't turn into kind of how this family is and then other families who have opairs nannies do.[09:32] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And I would imagine that the mom who we don't meet till the end, I kept wondering where's the mom where's the mom?[09:39] Portia Pendleton: What is she like? Yes.[09:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought that was an important choice not to show her right. Until the wedding. I bet that's just how she's related to all the kids the whole time.[09:49] Portia Pendleton: I bet.[09:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: This is what I'm imagining. Their childhoods. Were they're, like, living in a castle or whatever? Very fancy place in New York City. Dad is working all the time, doesn't really care about them, except as sort of, like, bolstering his own image. And then Mom, I don't think would have worked, but also probably wasn't hands on or invested in them. And so they probably did have nannies. But I would imagine that then mom maybe felt competitive with the nanny and would fire her. Or if the kids did start to grow attached to the nanny and not her, I could see that creating issues and leading to a lot of different caretakers coming in and out, which I don't think is good for the kids. Right. That's my hypothesis about what their upbringing was like. I have no idea if we'll see any more backstory to that or not, but they all certainly are displaying traits, at least of various personality disorders in the cluster B range, from borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, to antisocial personality disorder.[10:56] Portia Pendleton: Well, I guess who should we start with? Do we want to just maybe, like, quickly we talked a little bit about Kendall. Anything else you want to add? So it seems like he's separated or divorced from his wife.[11:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think they're separating. Yes, you're right.[11:10] Portia Pendleton: Because they talk about it later at the wedding.[11:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: So at first I hated him. The first couple of episodes, I just hated him. I thought he was such a douchebag. Like, sorry to use that word, but I think he is in the way. He's so rude and aggressive to all the business people. Maybe that's how business is done. I don't know. I don't do business. He's so rude and gross and vulgar, and he really thought really highly of himself and would get so offended when someone would mention, like, do you want to call your dad? Or should we run this by your dad? Which is, like, the only reason he's in that position.[11:43] Portia Pendleton: I love when he said back, though, to one of one, do you want to call your dad? Yeah. I was like, that's funny.[11:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: So at first, I hated him, and then as I saw the dynamic between Kendall and his dad play out, I felt so sad for him. And then those I just got chills thinking of the final scenes after. So they're at the wedding. He's trying to get drugs. He goes for a ride with a waiter or something, and he's the one driving, and he even says, like, it's been a long time since I drove. And the waiter is like and they're on the other side of the other.[12:18] Portia Pendleton: Side of the road, right?[12:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because they're in, I think, they're in somewhere in England. And the waiter is like, oh, really?[12:23] Portia Pendleton: Like, why?[12:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: And he's like, Well, I'm insanely wealthy, so people usually drive me around. And then again, the car accident. The guy dies and he leaves.[12:32] Portia Pendleton: And he tried to go back twice. So I count yes, because I thought that that was, like, an important moment. He did demonstrate some empathy and compassion and regard for humanity.[12:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Shame and regret.[12:49] Portia Pendleton: Back two times to try to get to him. It appears like it's cold. I mean, this isn't pleasant. It's life or death. And then he kind of comes to realize that he can't get to him and just I mean, then he's in shock. Interesting, because he kind of then immediately shuts down. He walks back. He's just like he gets inside. He takes that bath.[13:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God.[13:11] Portia Pendleton: Cleans off.[13:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. He has to break in to get inside because he lost his room key. That was just so chilling, that whole portrayal. But I thought it would spot on portrayal of what it must feel like to be in shock and just sort of going through the motions and trying to cover your *** by showing up to the after party and the brunch the next day and all this stuff. I was kind of surprised that the authorities or his dad or whoever was able to piece together that he was there by his room key. I was like, would they really find the room key? Whatever. So they did, right?[13:48] Portia Pendleton: And why was it his room key? Why wasn't it just, like, a room key to the house? So somebody who was working right at the property had that seems strange that they right.[13:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: That seems like a detail that realistic.[13:59] Portia Pendleton: That is.[14:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: But okay, fine, we'll give it to you. And then the way the dad uses oh, my God. Masterfully.[14:04] Portia Pendleton: As soon as that happened, and I just assumed that this person was dead, and as he's kind of walking home.[14:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, this is going to happen.[14:13] Portia Pendleton: His dad gets him back under his 100%.[14:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: S…

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"Black Swan" Apr 24, 2023

Show notes

TRIGGER WARNING: This episode discusses potentially triggering topics including suicide, self-harm, and eating disorders.Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. As two dancers, Dr. Furey and Portia were thrilled to revisit the 2010 psychological thriller "Black Swan" starring Natalie Portman, Mila Kunis, Barbara Hershey, and Winona Ryder. In this episode, we analyze the masterful depiction of Nina's first psychotic break and wonder if the character Lily was real or a hallucination. We also discussing toxic dance culture and discuss the differences between anorexia, bulimia, and binge eating disorder. We hope you enjoy!Analyze Scripts InstagramAnalyze Scripts TikTokAnalyze Scripts YouTubeAnalyze Scripts Website[00:17] Portia Pendleton: Hi there. So, yeah, before we get started today, I just kind of wanted to give a little trigger warning for some of the content. We will be discussing the film Black Swan. And there are some themes of suicide, self harm and eating disorders that we're going to discuss. So if that is something that is triggering or might be upsetting to you.[00:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Please feel free to skip this episode.[00:36] Portia Pendleton: And catch us next time. Thanks.[00:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi. Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist, and I'm joined by my friend and colleague.[00:50] Portia Pendleton: Portia Pendleton, a licensed social worker.[00:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: We are just going to dive right in today. We're talking about the 2010 psychological thriller Black Swan. There's so much to talk about. So we just got to dive right in. Portia oh.[01:04] Portia Pendleton: So I saw this movie in theaters when it came out.[01:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think I had a couple of times.[01:08] Portia Pendleton: Yay. Like dance movie.[01:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think I went with some of my dance friends.[01:11] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, it was supposed to be I actually don't think I knew that it was like a psychological thriller.[01:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you think it was going to be like center stage?[01:18] Portia Pendleton: Yes. I was expecting it to just be kind of like toxic ballet culture and some relationships. I went with my at the time boyfriend and now current partner. And I think he was traumatized from it. He was very confused. And I left that movie feeling like gross. Oh, yeah, I can remember it.[01:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: I remember you told me when I recommended this, you shuddered. And you were like, well, I'll have to watch it during the daylight hours.[01:54] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I don't know. And maybe we will talk about this a little bit. Like if it's because it hit on stuff for me. But oh my gosh, there were just so many moments that I feel like physically make my skin crawl and make me feel so uncomfortable and shudder almost.[02:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. It's a beautiful movie, period. I think it was nominated for a bunch of Oscars. I think Natalie Portman won an Oscar for best actress, rightfully so. But even like the physical stuff, like her scratches and skin peeling and all of those things. Exactly. And I think it's meant to make.[02:36] Portia Pendleton: You feel that way. Yes. I feel like I'm very.[02:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Visually impacted.[02:43] Portia Pendleton: I guess in previous episodes, I talked about vomit a lot. Like, seeing actual vomit makes me crazy. But I work with people who sell farm and we've all seen, I'm sure, especially you in your training, like scars and even fresh cut wounds and things like that. That is just not bothersome to me at this point. But seeing someone peel their skin back, that literally makes me shudder. I feel like it's meant not, but.[03:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think it's totally meant to there when she's washing her hands on that scene. I think we all know what we're referring to there. But so to give a recap of the plot if you haven't watched it in a while. So this movie focuses on Nina, who is, like, prima ballerina, I think, in New York City Ballet. It seems like they're implying. And she really wants to be the lead dancer, the principal dancer in her company's production. She sort of goes back and forth with another character, Lily, who's played by Mila Kunis. A lot to say about her. And then her mother, nina's mother is played by Barbara Hershey. That dynamic. And their home is fascinating. I'm sure we'll get into it. And then there's, like, this gross director. We'll talk more about him, too, and.[04:11] Portia Pendleton: Then I totally forgot about her. But Winona Ryder makes his parents as Beth, like, the retiring maybe on being forced to prima ballerina.[04:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly. And so I believe this movie really amazingly predicts, nina's first psychotic break. Is that how you interpreted it, too, or did you see other things?[04:35] Portia Pendleton: No, I mean, I don't know what else I would call that. Yeah, I think throughout the movie, we see the really the final push right into that. But I have many questions, as I'm sure many people do. It's like, how did you get here and why? So I think the movie just starts off right away. We see this kind of relationship with mom. It almost feels a little bit like Mommy dear.[05:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, I was going to say the same thing 100%.[05:09] Portia Pendleton: It feels real icky.[05:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, even Nina, she looks like she's meant to be, like, in her twenty s, I would guess, right. She alludes a couple of times to Beth being, like, 27 or 28. So she's, like, too old now to dance. So I think she's in her early 20s, maybe mid 20s. Like, maybe she's getting there. But she's, like, so infantilized, very childlike. Like, her room still has, like, pink flowers everywhere. Her mom tucks her in, brushes her hair. What did you think about when the mom fed her breakfast of a big old grapefruit and egg white?[05:45] Portia Pendleton: I was like, oh, that's pretty spot on, I think, for, like, I'd say, right, like, toxic ballet culture to kind of remain very small in your body. Which is, I think, kind of a crazy feat because the amount of work that it takes to be a ballerina a ballerina. I mean, it's you are so strong, even though you look so small, like crazy.[06:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.[06:11] Portia Pendleton: I mean, your entire body physique is just muscle and strength.[06:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. But I thought it would depicted it so perfectly that they're so thin. They're, like, scary thin. I felt uncomfortable watching them. I remembered back then they had talked about Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis had talked about how much weight they had to lose. And they are already petite, period, like, just by themselves. But they both and I looked it up after I rewatched the movie, lost, like, at least £20 following these crazy, restrictive diets. And on the one hand, I'm like, that's really accurate for the roles they're playing. On the other hand, I feel really gross about that, just like in our society. And it makes me worry for them that they were able to sustain that, to play these roles and train.[07:00] Portia Pendleton: Right.[07:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Mila Kunis said that she survived on carrots and cigarettes, which is shocking. But yeah, I mean, they both looked so gaunt. And there's that physical therapy scene where someone's working on Nina and you just see her ribs, and it's just like, again, talk about feeling, like, visually uncomfortable, right?[07:22] Portia Pendleton: I mean, it's like you're all kind of bones and so even kind of stepping away from the story a little bit. Like when she gets dropped on her knee, like, her ankle kind of snapping. At one point, I was so worried.[07:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: About her bone density, just even from.[07:39] Portia Pendleton: Being a dance, I guess. Specific ballet. I feel like I have a lot of physical.[07:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: How do I say this?[07:48] Portia Pendleton: Physical trauma from the act of dancing. Bleeding toes. Or I have knee problems. And so I think a movie like this, for me, again, really hits me in a physical sensation when she's on.[08:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Her know what that feels like.[08:05] Portia Pendleton: Oh, my gosh. Definitely my body tightened up exactly how that feels. Her getting the physical therapy, like you were just saying, it's brutal. The amount of training and pain that people at this level, I do believe and will say exist 100%.[08:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I did appreciate in this movie that they really did show that. Especially, like, the dancer's feet, because, of course, when you're on point, your feet are disgusting. You have all these blisters, your toenails break. There's such physical trauma to your body and your feet. And they really displayed that in this movie. And I also was so curious. All of the ballerina's outfits, like their leotards, the shrugs they were wearing. All this stuff is just so accurate. And I also feel like now, looking at it as a physician, I'm so worried about all their labs. They probably all have labs suggestive of anorexia. They're probably all freezing all the time.[09:08] Portia Pendleton: They probably all have a mennorrhea, so they are not getting their period.[09:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: They probably every time she fell, I was so worried she was going to break something because I don't think I bet she has osteoporosis because she's not fueling herself. Like how gleeful she was at how pink that grapefruit was. So perfect. Like, such a good scene. But she clearly has an eating disorder. And then when her mom gets her the cake what did you think about that scene and the mom's reaction?[09:38] Portia Pendleton: I thought it was interesting because I feel like the mom, on the one hand, really wants her right to be this, like, prima ballerina. And I feel like, you know what?[09:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: The mom could never be, it sounds like because she got pregnant with her.[09:47] Portia Pendleton: And so she serves her typically because, again, she is treated like a child, typically, like, pretty low calorically, dense food. And then it's like, you get her.[09:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: This cake for a party size.[09:58] Portia Pendleton: You're cutting her this big piece. Nina right.[10:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: To celebrate that, she was chosen to be a Swan Queen.[10:05] Portia Pendleton: So Nina is like, oh, I want a little smaller. And mom immediately is, like, so hurt.[10:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.[10:12] Portia Pendleton: Puts it right back on Nina. I'm going to throw it away. Makes Nina feel bad. Nina then apologizes and then eats it anyway. I'm sure she probably threw it up, but it was, like, a very strange moment besides Mom's mental health issues. But just like, you want your daughter to be this person. Let me back up a little bit. I felt like through the movie, the mom comes across as Mommy dearest. Like, kind of like abusive, weird, like manipulative, narcissistic.[10:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: And we did see that dynamic. Remember, in center stage with that ballerina and her mom.[10:49] Portia Pendleton: That's interesting too.[10:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you remember that? I forget that ballerina's name. But that mom was also really involved in calling around and also involved. It's really similar. And I wonder if that's again, part of the ballet culture, if that happens.[11:02] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So mom, in some ways, is trying to protect Nina. And it's almost like at the end, she sees Nina literally falling apart and losing her mind and doesn't want her to go through the role, obviously. Then Nina feels like then she ends up going to perform. That is later in the movie. But I thought that that was different. At first, mom comes across as just really inappropriate.[11:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.[11:30] Portia Pendleton: Just the paintings of Nina all over.[11:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: There's some things in the movie that I'm sure we'll get into more that I really wondered about Nina's perception of it. And I wondered, are those paintings of her or are those examples of her hallucinating? But certainly the mom, it's just weird. It's just weird. They're very enmeshed. Mom strips off her clothes and brings her to clip her nails because she sees her scratching. It's just icky.[12:01] Portia Pendleton: It gives me the ick.[12:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: It's a really dysfunctional relationship.[12:05] Portia Pendleton: Mom emerges from the dark of the apartment. At times. It's always like it's startling. It's scary. It feels like the mom is coming in to be mean. And I think you hit the nail on the head with what I was trying to allude to is, like, it's hard to know if mom is really as bad as she is or if it's Nina's perception paranoia. Right. Like, all kind of coming out throughout the movie. And I think initially, it seems like, really clear mom has all these issues. She's not a good mom. She's, like, making Nina to be this way, in my opinion. Then by the end of the movie, I'm really questioning, was she really that bad? Was she even really in the room? Was she really even coming in? I mean, right?[12:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: 100%. Like, when she finally got that stick of some kind to keep her door shut when she was masturbating and turns over and mom's right there. Those kinds of scenes are just, like, no boundaries. But, yeah, I think it's a really interesting depiction of a toxic mother daughter relationship. But again, I think, like, Ford Nina's story and thinking about her first break. So we know that first psychotic breaks most often occur in that time frame for women. Like, between your twenty s and thirty s. For men, it's a little younger. It might be like late teens into your twenty s. And again, so you're like, okay, so let's rewind. And how did she get here? Like you were saying? So she has this relationship with her mom where she feels like she's supposed to be this prima ballerina her mother never could be. And she even said that thing to her about at one point. Nina is like, what career? To her mother and her mom's like, well, I would have had one if it weren't for you kind of thing. That's really toxic. But just thinking about the stress of that relationship, there's no dad in the picture or even alluded to. So we don't even know what kind of stress was there. What kind of stress was Nina under as a child growing up with this huge expectation on her? Who even knows if she wants it? So that's like A, and then B, we see that she seems to have a very neurotic personality. And I'd love for you to speak more to that, especially in your line of work.[14:22] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, it seems like, right? Like, one, it's not a causation, but it's often a correlation. Right. So it's narotic a little bit Type A, I'd say, or a lot Type A compulsive. Again, there are a lot of rituals that kind of come out in just like I think the job right. It's like tying your point shoes a certain way. It's like you do all these things that are very ritualized and rich and rigid, and I think it's like a perfect opening for I think there's a lot of ballerinas, in my opinion, who probably do have OCD, probably are perfectionistic, 100%. And I think all of these traits and symptoms really…

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"Inside Out" Apr 17, 2023

Show notes

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we chat about the adorable 2015 Disney/Pixar animated film "Inside Out." We love all of these characters and were so impressed at how well this movie depicted the development of psychological ambivalence in a pre-teen. In this episode, we comment on the humorous portrayal of various cognitive processes including memory, dejavu, and dreaming. We also touch on neuroplasticity and resiliency as it relates to trauma experienced in childhood. That leads us to reflect on what it's been like to work with patients of all ages through the COVID-19 pandemic, and our plea to Disney to release a sequel about Riley living through the pandemic. We hope you enjoy!Analyze Scripts InstagramAnalyze Scripts TikTokAnalyze Scripts WebsitePortia Pendleton: Hi.Dr. Katrina Furey: Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. I'm here, as always, with my co host, Dr. Katrina A. Fury, a psychiatrist. And I am Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker practicing as a therapist. Yes, we're really excited to dive into today's episode. We both watched me for the first time, you for the first time at the movie Inside Out. Yeah.Portia Pendleton: Disney Pixar movie. Yeah. I've seen this movie a bazillion times, but I love it every single time. And I remember I first saw it when it came out a couple of years back. I was just going into my second year of psych residency at Yale, and me and a couple of my co residents went to the movie theater together and watched this all together. And it was so great. And I thought it was such a great depiction of emotion and development, and we'll totally get into all of it, but I just really love this movie.Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you remember talking about it or what you guys thought right after? Did anything stick with you? Anything that anybody said or like?Portia Pendleton: I think so much of it. I think we loved the depiction of the different types of memory. And when they're on the train trying to get back to Riley's what do they call it? The control center or something. Just, like, going through the different lands of the brain. And it was so well done. One thing I remember we all talked about was, like, I wonder how they came up with the five main emotions because they were anger, disgust, fear, sadness and joy. And I always thought disgust. That was the one where I was like, I wonder how they came up with that. I remember we sort of spent some time talking about that.Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So just like a little premise. If you haven't seen it, I do recommend it's. Like, short it's silly. I feel like you can pause it and put it back on. But it's about a child who yeah, most of the story takes place when she's in that age range, but you first kind of see her as a baby and the movie kind of goes through her experience with really, I'd say, like, innate basic emotions to developing more complex emotions. Right.Portia Pendleton: All in the context of a big move, a major life transition when Riley and her family moved from Minnesota to San Francisco. And it was just, like, so well done and just so amazing. I thought even picking her age was spot on. I feel like we go from seeing her have these five primitive, very separate emotions to being able to start integrating different feelings and hold on to them at the same time. And that's, like, exactly around the time, I think, psychologically that would be able to happen. And just throwing in the move and how that sort of disrupts her feelings and showing the tension between her own inner feelings and what she thinks her parents want her to feel and then rebelling a little bit at the end.Dr. Katrina Furey: It was just so great.Portia Pendleton: I really loved it. It was such a unique concept, an interesting premise and way to depict psychological development in childhood as you move into adolescence.Dr. Katrina Furey: And what really does I think it just gives kids and adults, like, a really good picture of what happens in your brain. I like to think of it, and I feel like it would be nice to even explain maybe to some people, maybe, I guess a little bit younger, but I think adults, too, that this is what happens. It's more like technical and it's not as pretty. Our brains are like, gray, but the control center with the emotions kind of working together or sometimes in conflict.Portia Pendleton: Right.Dr. Katrina Furey: And then how our memories are stored and them directing each way. That is what happened.Portia Pendleton: Right. And I think it does give language and imagery to little kids about this stuff. And I've heard children say depict their.Dr. Katrina Furey: Anger, their turning red, just like that guy.Portia Pendleton: And I just think it's so great. I just loved it.Dr. Katrina Furey: So, Inside Out also has a pretty all star cast. And I think some of the voices I recognized but couldn't place. And now that we kind of took a deep dive into that, I'm like.Portia Pendleton: Oh, my gosh, I love them. We have Amy Poehler, who plays kind.Dr. Katrina Furey: Of the main lead, which is Joy, which is perfect.Portia Pendleton: Like, what a perfect casting.Dr. Katrina Furey: Her voice, her cadence, her tone. I feel like it's very joyful. Very joyful.Portia Pendleton: She was great.Dr. Katrina Furey: And then we have Mindy Kaling, who did the Disgust characters. Her I didn't place at all. If I listened back, I probably would. And she did a great job, too, right? It was perfect.Portia Pendleton: And then we have bill hader as fear. That one I didn't place till I looked it up and I was like, so great. They're just so perfect. And Louis Black is Anger, who is, like, one of my favorites. Again, I really love the depiction of Anger, and I'm so curious about how different creative people put Anger into imagery and words and everything. Whoops.Dr. Katrina Furey: You liked angry man. Shrink too.Portia Pendleton: That's interesting. Yeah, I like that. And then who else did we have for Sadness? We had the woman from The Office that you were really excited about.Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay, if you have seen The Office, you know how her voice is. And so, please, if you have not seen Inside Out, like, just picture her character and her tone and how she talks just as this little short blue blob of sadness.Portia Pendleton: I know.Dr. Katrina Furey: Walking around and, oh, I didn't mean to do that. She's perfect for the role.Portia Pendleton: And also, the way they drew these five main emotions were also perfect. We have joy. He's, like, taller and wearing this bright blue dress, and I think she's got, like, blue hair and she's, like, bopping around all zoom. Zoo, zoo, zooming. Everywhere we have sadness. The little blue, your blob with glasses and a turtleneck. And then we have discussed who's green and kind of like, sassy and wearing jewelry, and her hair is a little flippy. And then anger is like a big red square. And then fear is just this little string bean. String bean of something that could just.Dr. Katrina Furey: Melt into the floor, right?Portia Pendleton: And I was just like, It's so great.Dr. Katrina Furey: I love it.Portia Pendleton: And then the human characters were also really interesting and pivotal. So we have Diane Lane, who voiced Riley's mom. We had Kyle McLaughlin, who voiced Riley's dad. And then Riley herself was played by an actress named Caitlin Diaz. And they've all been in a lot of different movies and TV shows themselves. So it really was an all star cast.Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.Portia Pendleton: Oh, and how could I forget Bing Bong? What did you think about Bing Bong?Dr. Katrina Furey: So Bing Bong was the imaginary friend, right? So I thought his character was so sweet. The only time I got a little teary eyed was in the movie where I think Bing Bong kind of realizes that he's supposed to kind of fade into your childhood experience and not kind of follow you to adolescence. So he helps Joy get back to the main switchboard so she can help Riley help Riley out.Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I know. So beautiful. So Bing Bong was played by Richard Kind, who is an actor that I wouldn't know that name off the top of my head, but I know him. Like, when I look at him and he voices all these different funny characters, like on Curb Your Enthusiasm, Mad About You, he's just really a funny comedian. Yeah. So where do we start?Dr. Katrina Furey: So I liked the first scene a lot because I feel like it's really kind of accurate with what babies see. So it's like the first emotion that kind of shows up as Joy, right. And it's like you're kind of awe at the world. You don't see very well, but you can see your parents faces. Right. They're really close to you and they're really happy. They're smiling. And then I think that was just like a really beautiful moment. And then very quickly yeah. I think sadness comes in.Portia Pendleton: I thought it was anger, like, when she starts crying, maybe it was sad and I don't know which one of those.Dr. Katrina Furey: And it was just like, a lot. Someone took over, right? Changing my diaper. I'm hungry. That's how I get my need met. I don't know how to speak.Portia Pendleton: It was so funny and how they showed I'm taking over so quickly, like, at the switchboard, I just loved. And I love the parents reactions, too.Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So I just really liked that scene in general. I thought it was really accurate again, and kind of a good introduction to all the characters and how the emotions kind of show up at different stages of early early development.Portia Pendleton: Right? Early super early development.Dr. Katrina Furey: Total fear, right? Like, fear is really appropriate because it does keep us safe. It helps kids. I think she was like hopping over a cord, which again, is like, safe.Portia Pendleton: But to a child that age.Dr. Katrina Furey: Was like, warning her. And then Disgust came in and was like I think it was funny about the broccoli. What is this? It's green. I can't take this. She has a temper tantrum.Portia Pendleton: Then also like, yeah. And then how that carries over to when they're in San Francisco, they thought like, oh, let's go get some pizza. This will be safe. Riley brings that up. She can tell her parents are stressed because the moving van doesn't show up and there's fighting, and she's like, let's.Dr. Katrina Furey: Go get some pizza.Portia Pendleton: Then they show up and it's like, San Francisco probably like vegan broccoli pizza. And I remember Anger was like, they.Dr. Katrina Furey: Can'T even get pizza right here. Yeah, it was so sweet. So I think just knowing about child brain development, I think we could go off on a really long tangent here that I will try to shorten. But I really wanted to kind of just talk about child brain elasticity and why children can be so resilient. Their brain is still forming. They're still making all these connections in their synapses.Portia Pendleton: They're all fire science words.Dr. Katrina Furey: So I think that was really cool. And then when we see later on in the movie, we see the long term memories, like shapes, and it looks like yes, it looks like a brain.Portia Pendleton: The sulci and the Gyrie of the brain. Exactly.Dr. Katrina Furey: I know.Portia Pendleton: And then when they had all the memories, there as these beautiful little glows that all had at the beginning, like one color. It was like one main color. It was like yellow for Joy, blue for Sadness, green for Disgust, red for Anger, and then purple for fear, I think. And then as we progress into adolescence, they start being multiple colors. And that's at first when Joy was like, sadness, don't touch this. You're going to ruin the core memory. And sadness is like, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. And that tension between Joy and Sadness the whole time. Chefs kiss moi. Wow. And then the fact that at the end, sadness was the hero of the day. Being able to sit with your authentic feelings in this big move and missing your friends and approaching adolescents, it was so beautiful.Dr. Katrina Furey: There was a powerful moment with Sadness comforting. Was it Bing Bong?Portia Pendleton: I think so.Dr. Katrina Furey: And Bing Bong was really upset, crying. And then Sadness sat down and offered her ear. And it was just like, yeah, that's really sad. And Joy, up until this point, was really trying to avoid right. Like, any uncomfortable emotions, specifically Sadness feeling. It like, as unhealthy.Portia Pendleton: It's going to hurt Riley.Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And so Joy at that moment was like, whoa, how did you do that? Because Bing bong is like, be able to regulate himself after sadness helps him. And sadness was just like, yeah, I just sat with him and I was sad.Portia Pendleton: And again, that's what we all need to learn, right, is that it's okay to feel sad or any of these other authentic feelings and a big mix of all the emotions and to sit with it and validate. Even when she got on Bing Bong's level, it's like, such a good depiction. And again, Joy, I feel like if Riley developed with Joy still steering the ship the whole time, you could totally see her turn into a toxic, positivity type of person. Can't acknowledge any sadness. Like, has to turn away from it all the time. It's just so beautiful. I really loved it. And I loved the depiction of the different types of memory we have, like, long term memory, short term memory facts. I loved the bubblegum jingle, how it just pops into your head even if you don't want it. Do you have a jingle in my head?Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Do you have a commercial or like, a song?Portia Pendleton: Because I totally have, like, five. Yeah.Dr. Katrina Furey: What are yours? So the JG. Wentworth commercial call JG. Wentworth. Don't you ever forget that.Portia Pendleton: Yeah.Dr. Katrina Furey: And then the one from a long time ago that was like, education connection, connected for free education. Oh, yeah. Yes.Portia Pendleton: About, like, connecting you to colleges and stuff.Dr. Katrina Furey: It's a song that I'm sure I knew the entire thing at one point, but I'm such a music hook person where I think that's too, why they Make US, which this made me think of it when they were in Long Term Memory, and the cleanup crew comes in and they're throwing away some of the presidents. Let's keep Lincoln. Let's keep George Washington. I was like, that's so relatable. But I learned a song when I was little to remember the presidents, so I remember probably like, the first ten. It's like washington Adams, jefferson madison Monroe, jackson moon veron. And then I don't remember.Portia Pendleton: Right.Dr. Katrina Furey: But songs are helpful in memory, for sure.Portia Pendleton: That's so funny. And I love that depiction of how certain songs and things like that get stuck in your memory and how they were thinking about getting rid of that, but they didn't, and it would come.Dr. Katrina Furey: Up at other points. A little cleanup crew thinks it's funny. They're like, we'll send up this jingle to Main Central office, and they all of a sudden get that memory up to it. It was just do you see, like.Portia Pendleton: The parents also hearing it in their own version of The Emotions? I love the parents having their own versions. Like when they were at the table, like, in their first night in their apartment, or not the first night, b…

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