What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

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061 - Let's Talk About Page 1 Of Your Script Dec 28, 2022

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Don't save your best stuff for last; start it off in a way that will grab the reader's attention and show that you've got something to say. In this podcast episode, Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson discuss the first page of your script and what you need to do to stand out.

060 - TV Writer/Producer Danny Zuker Dec 21, 2022

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Danny Zuker is a TV Writer and Producer known for Modern Family, Just Shoot Me, Off Centre, and Grace Under Fire.Show NotesDanny Zuker on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0958521/Danny Zuker on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_ZukerDanny Zuker on Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/dannyzukerDanny Zuker on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dannyzuker/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TranscriptsDanny Zuker (00:00):So like, the people interested on the podcast who are aspiring and whatnot. Yeah. I mean, it is, and you can attest to this, and everybody I know can attest to it. Is he getting punched in the face contest? I mean, and there's no shame in stopping. It's just how many times he can get punched in the face. Because you will continually, I mean, I recently been punched, you know, I did a pilot and it was like all the way and boom, punched in the face and it's like, it never stops hurting. And at some point you just decide not to get up. I'm just not there yet.Michael Jamin (00:26):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.(00:34):Hey everybody, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin. I got a special, very special guest today, Mr. Danny Zucker. You don't know who he is. You don't know who. I barely, we worked together on many for many years on a show called Just Shoot Me. But I want to, man, I want to, this guy is, you don't understand this guy in the industry. He's known as a joke machine. He is known as the guy who comes in and hits that home run joke that makes everyone just laugh out loud in every episode. And so, let me just talk about his credits and I'm gonna bring him in. He's got a ton of credits. So I guess we'll talk about this, but we, I guess he started out on the Arsenio Hall Show as a joke writer, evening Shade, which I didn't, I forgot about that cuz I was a PA on that show. But not when he was there. Roseanne, listen to his credits. Roseanne Grace Under Fire fired up. He probably, do you want, is it okay if I mention No, I guess I shouldn't mentionDanny Zuker (01:26):That one. No, you can totally mention all the terribleMichael Jamin (01:28):Ones. <Laugh> jhu Me. We were, we, we worked together. Jesse Off Center, which he created Coupling the Men's Room, another show he created Surviving Suburbia, the Unusuals modern Family, which you've just got off of. So he was there for many seasons. But then also God the Devil and Bob Norm watching Ellie Oliver Bean come to Papa Stacked. I mean, dudeDanny Zuker (01:54):Act I'm glad you finished on Stacked ByMichael Jamin (01:56):Though. Yeah, that was a, yeah, <laugh>. But what a man, dude, you have some, you have some you in in this podcast right now, I would say you have the second best credits.Danny Zuker (02:07):Who have you had who've hadMichael Jamin (02:09):<Laugh>? No, I'm talking about me. Oh, no, your, your, your credits are fantastic, dude. I mean, aDanny Zuker (02:14):Lot.Michael Jamin (02:15):Oh,Danny Zuker (02:16):But great memoir in me when I want to get out of the business.Michael Jamin (02:19):Oh, but also you do, well, you, well, you can start writing it now, I suppose. <Laugh>. How dare you. How dare. But also can I even talk about this? Do you have a famous book about where you, you and Trump? You got into a this is before he was president, right?Danny Zuker (02:34):Yeah, it was, it was I think 2014 back when everybody hated Trump. Not just people who could readMichael Jamin (02:41):<Laugh>, but, and so you just started trolling him on TwitterDanny Zuker (02:44):Just randomly and just a little, like, just a small little tweet. It was like, and then he exploded and then we went onto a month long with hundreds of tweets back and forth. And if you go back and look at it, cause it went rebal when he got the nomination. But if you look at it, he didn't like I was just a beta test. There's nothing he said about anybody else, whether it's like whoever he wants to talk about that he didn't first try out on me to no effectMichael Jamin (03:08):Really.Danny Zuker (03:09):And always bugged me when the Democrats would say like well it's so hard to fight against. It's like, no, just read what I did. It's not that hard. I feel like anybody could dunk on him.Michael Jamin (03:18):I remembered thinking though you, that he picked the wrong fight. You don't pick a, a Battle of Witch with professional comedy writer. That's not what you want to do,Danny Zuker (03:25):<Laugh>. It's all I do. It's, yeah, it's like, it's like me getting into a Dunking contest with LeBron. It's not gonna work out. I have one skill period. I can't do anything other than this. It's all I was trained to do.Michael Jamin (03:36):And this was at Modern Family where you were a writer, and did you, did you wanna, did you bounce off any jokes off of anybody?Danny Zuker (03:42):No, in fact, I mean, I would, he started to go after Modern Family, like when he would, you know, and that became like something he would pick out at that point that when he started doing that, I went and I talked to the cast and the other writers and the cre co-creator Steve and Chris, and I said, Hey, like, you know, my show, I would just go forward, but it's your show, right? And they were like, no, get him. It's like, fine. And it was like, I have to say, like back then, you just have to remember like, he was a, he was such a safe target. Like I would have to scroll for scroll and scroll and scroll to find one tweet that supported him. Like one reply that supported him. And I'm sure it came from somebody in his office. What was weird and why I knew like, oh, shit's different is it went viral again in like 20 16, 20 17.(04:31):At which point I got a lot of like, you are an asshole. Y O U R. I got like, it was like, there was a lot of hate. Like people were on his side all of a sudden. It was like, what? Because it was Republicans, he was a joke. Right. You know? Right. and, and so it was like, whoa. It was really weird. And it was yeah, I mean it was, you know, I, I continued, I continued to be a voice, but, you know, I I, I had threats. I was hacked. I had a lot of stuff go down that was like sort of yeah, it was like, it, you know, it, it got a little bit scary. I mean, it's scarier for women who went up againstMichael Jamin (05:05):Him. But at, at some point though, did he just block you?Danny Zuker (05:08):Oh, within the middle of that. And then by the end, after months, he blocked me and I stayed blocked all through his presidency. <Laugh>.Michael Jamin (05:15):And then how did that become a book?Danny Zuker (05:17):Well, I was doing it like at the 20, what was it? The the midterms, the 2018 midterms. I was part of like a democratic affiliation. Like there was some fundraiser. And they had asked me if I wanted to do like a live reading of my Twitter war. And like, you know, Tim Simons from a VE was there and he said he had an un enviable job of being Trump. And we did it. And then another friend of mine who does a lot of this stuff says we should put that out as a book. And, and then we just, I just wound up doing it.Michael Jamin (05:47):That's fantastic.Danny Zuker (05:48):Yeah. I mean, it's just a little, it's a hundred pages. It's like, it could not be sort of, and and, and I comment on the little tweets as they go along and Yeah. So <laugh>. But and then I gave it to ch Yeah. And then I gave it to charities like, you know, Uhhuh legal aid for people at the border and Planned Parent, like all the things he, ohMichael Jamin (06:04):Good. Oh, now tell me. So I don't, I remember, it's so funny cause we worked together 20 something yearsDanny Zuker (06:10):Ago. I know a lot,Michael Jamin (06:12):But I, you remember, just so my audience knows, you were the guy who all of us wanted to impress in the room to make laugh. You were the guy cuz it was your approval. Yeah, it was. Because if we could make Danny laugh then Paul Yeah. Because you were the home run hitter.Danny Zuker (06:29):But that, but that room had, I felt like that room had a lot of heavy hitters. It's very flattering to know that. I mean, I always thought, you know, I thought you and your partner Siever were like, it was just, everybody was good.Michael Jamin (06:40):We were, we were all baby writers. But it, I mean there were definitely, it was a really talented, I think that might have been one of the most talented rooms I've been in, to be honest.Danny Zuker (06:47):It was certainly one of the, it was one of those rooms where like, cuz Just Shoot Me was a show that really survived on jokes. Like, it was like, the way it was built, it was like, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't about like a lot of touchy-feely moments, you know, or we'd get to them occasionally. But it, what it was most successful at was like, you know, what are the s in that world? Yeah. And, and, and so, and we had a lot, you know, it was a lot of really good people. So,Michael Jamin (07:11):Man, and then, but you started, I forgot about this as a, as a joke writer on the Arsenio Hall Show.Danny Zuker (07:17):Yeah, it was weird. I mean, I got <laugh>, I mean, I was quite young. I was like, I think like 24 or 25, and I managed to get like a like a pa job on that show. Cause I'd worked on as a pa on another show with a producer there. And anyway, I got there and, you know, we're doing run through things and it, you know, writers there had 13 week contracts. And in the first 13 weeks that show became an amazing hit. Like he was on the Coming Time magazine and he wound up purging a lot of the staff on a Friday. And I just went home. This, you know, I went home that night and now long ago, and on a typewriter looking at newspapers typed up a bunch of jokes and on Monday handed up, you know, my submission to some of the other writers there to put it in with the packet.(08:03):You know, they, because I knew they were looking and they knew I wanted to write. And on Monday, like he did one of my jokes. And then like on Tuesday he did two of my jokes. And on Thursday I had a good amount of jokes in. And on that Friday, the following Friday, he hired me. Wow. So it was like, but I, you know, I'd been doing jokes, you know, I don't, I wasn't, it's funny, I was like, we were doing a move in our house, like we were remodeling, something had to move out and we get, so go through all of these boxes and in one box I found, oh, my Arsenio jokes, like a big book of my Arsenio jokes. And I thought, this is a gold mine. I can sort of recycle some of these and put them in things. And I started reading through them and they were also shit. It was like, it was nothing salvageable <laugh>, but I guess it worked for there.Michael Jamin (08:43):That's so, you know, cause I was a joke writer on the mic and Maddie's show for a little bit, and I had thisDanny Zuker (08:48):That's right.Michael Jamin (08:49):But I would go through my material. I, I have the same like a binder like gold. Right. And I looked at it recently, I was, was like, there's nothing in here. It's terrible. It'sDanny Zuker (08:57):Terrible. I would never hire this fucking guy.Michael Jamin (08:59):<Laugh>. But, but was it your goal, like in high school to be like a on to work, like late night or what? Or scripted?Danny Zuker (09:07):Yeah, it was. I mean, I really, you know, I wanted, I, I mean I, in high school I was doing some standup poorly, you know, cause I had nothing to say and, but I really did. I wanted to be on Letterman or snl. And and, you know, I got outta college and I did, like, I put together this reel that people seemed to like, and I got into Letterman it as like, you know, I talked to like Gerard Mulligan and a couple people there, and I mission and then, and I got my first rejection letter from them and the second one from snl. And and and I still have those. And they're, they, they, they're, because, you know, you go through that. I wound up getting a job with but glad up getting a job with Howard Stern, who was doing some box pilots.(09:44):He was gonna be the show that followed Joan Rivers Show. Right. And they never went, but it was, it was a couple months producing a week of shows, you know, practice shows. And well, a couple good things came outta that one. I've been friends with him for 30 something years as a result. Bob who was in my wedding, and right. But then, but then I also met a producer on that show who liked me, and he brought me out to, you know, he brought me out. He said, I have a a pa job out here if you want it. And, you know, so it all led from that. So,Michael Jamin (10:12):But you never decided to like resubmit to SNL orDanny Zuker (10:16):Letterman? I did. I mean, I was, you know, I was absolutely planning, but then I wound up getting an opportunity to be, you know, I, I got, I, I I wanted to. And then I came out here. It's funny because before I got the Arsenio Hall ugh, this is a really dark, like, horrible story. Before I got the Arsenio Hall show <laugh>, I got I was like up for like, to be a baby writer. If you remember Pat Sack had a late night talk show mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. That was Pat s Show. And was a lot of my friends, a lot of good people were there. Like, you know, Fred Wolf who went on to write a lot of stuff for all those movies for David Spade and Chris Farley. But like, so I was submitting packages and the head writer there, this guy Monty, I don't mind trashing him on this.(10:52):He, he he put me through the ringer. Like I kept submitting like over the course of you know, weeks of submitting to him and with notes. And I was like, fine. I was like young and prolific. Anyway, I wind up going in and I get there and there's another guy, there's writer Rob Young, who went on to write Forleo for many, many years. And he and Mon said, here's the thing, you're both baby writers, so if you don't mind, I'll make you a baby writer team. You know, you'll means splitting a salary and all that and you have to be okay with it. And we're like, I was broke and had gotten no credit card. We were like, yeah, let's do it. My family was in town, my mom and my two sisters and and my stepdad and we're like all getting ready to go out and celebrate.(11:34):And as I'm getting out the door, the phone rings and it's Monty. And he said, you know what? We've re he gave me a key to the office, by the way. We've reconsidered. We're just gonna go with Rob. Oh my God. Like, after offering me the job. And I literally like my knees buckle and it was like the darkest meal ever. So I was really depressed for exactly 12 hours. And the next day Marla, this woman who went up to Bruce, the Arsenio Hall show called me and said, I can't offer you a writing job yet, but if you want, you can come in here and be like, like a, like a segment pa. And I was like, yes. And so that's all I wanted was the opportunity. So it was like literally I had disappointment for 12 hours andMichael Jamin (12:14):But still that is crippling that disappointment.Danny Zuker (12:16):It was crippling. I've never forgottenMichael Jamin (12:18):The Yeah. I feel it just the way you saidDanny Zuker (12:21):It, it was really cruel. I mean, it was like I described, I mean, to like the people interested on the podcast who are aspiring and whatnot. I mean, it is, and you can a…

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059 - Dealing with Rejection Dec 14, 2022

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Rejection is a part of life. Many of us spend every waking moment finding a way to avoid rejection, failure, or negative feelings. As a writer, one of the best assets you can develop is the ability to recognize this process is coming up short and starting again until you finally get there. This week, we take a deep dive into the subject of rejection for writers.Show NotesMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMichael Jamin:I hear people all the time, like say, oh, it's too hard to break in, as I always say, break in as a pa because if to get the job you want, you wanna get as physically close to the job, to the person who has the job that you want. Whatever that is. Writer, director, producer, whatever. Physically close you're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, this is MichaelJamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters Need to Hear This, the podcast where we have screenwriters talking about things we need to hear. And I'm back with Philadelphia, Phil Hudson. Phil, welcome back.Phil Hudson:Thank you. It's good to be back. It'sMichael Jamin:Been good to be back.Phil Hudson:Many weeks of not being here.Michael Jamin:Um, yeah, there's been a lot going on. Lot going on.Phil Hudson:I had a baby.Michael Jamin:Brand new baby too.Phil Hudson:I personally, my wife did nothing. I did it all. Now my wonderful wife, um, we brought a baby boy into the world and we're super happy. And so we've been, he sleeps, which is great. And, um, yeah, dealing with a toddler now. The two year old is now immediately a toddler. Mm-hmm.Michael Jamin:<affirmative>. Wow. How and how, how's she taken him to this new kid?Phil Hudson:Um, it was interesting. She was really hesitant it first that we tried to do cute photos of her holding the baby brother and she just shoved him off immediately. Yeah. She, and wanted nothing. And now she like, will go over and give him kisses and try to give him little nozzles and she, she's, she's, uh, accustomed and loves it. So.Michael Jamin:See, that's nice. Yeah. Well, this brings us right to our topic we're gonna talk about today. It's dealing with rejection, which is what your baby son is now dealing with, with his sister rejection. Yep. And this is something all screenwriters have to deal with, not just aspiring writers, Phil, even people, my level and above. If there is above, is there an above? Yes. Which point?Phil Hudson:I think, I think it's, it's something everyone is dealing with, like rejection is that like dealing with rejection is a skillset everyone needs to develop. I think for riders, we're just putting ourselves out there so much. We're bearing our souls and what we do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that it feels more raw and vulnerable. And I think vulnerable, very important. We've talked aboutMichael Jamin:That before. Yep. And that's the first point is actually the fact that you are getting rejected means you are putting yourself out there. And so good for you, for good. For anybody who's getting rejected, it means they're trying. And then, which is already light years above people who are not, you know, who are not putting themselves out there. So I'm just gonna share, you know, my experiences of rejection and how I deal with it. And um, and maybe that'll help cuz I, I just want you to know everyone listening, like, I deal with a lot of rejection. This is the business <laugh>, I don't think of personally anymore. So just on a, on a, on a, on a macro scale, you know, when my partners shop a pilot, maybe one at a four they buy, which means, you know, three quarters or just failures. That's just how it goes.So, you know, I don't, I don't even take a pot. I I I don't take it personally. I was like, oh, okay. They didn't buy it. Well hopefully they'll buy the next one. Um, and, and even backing it up a little bit, you know, I hear people all the time, like say, oh, it's too hard to break in, as I always say, break in as a pa because if, to get the job you want, you wanna get as physically close to the job, to the person who has the job that you want, whatever that is. Writer, director, producer, whatever, physically close. This is just what you're doing, Phil. You are literally physically close to these people and a lot of people in that industry. And, um, but people say, well, it's hard just to become a PA and they start Yeah. You have to know someone.It's so hard. It's like, hold on. If you're complaining about how hard it is to be a production assistant, that's what PA stands for for, you can forget about being a writer. Cuz writer is way more hard, way harder than being a pa. I mean, so get that outta your head. Don't complain about how hard it's about being a pa. You know, that's, it's a hurdle you can achieve. It's just hard. So, um, and also another thing people don't even realize, and things have changed a little bit in the past, I don't know, probably 15 or years or so, but up until then, you could make a a, a professional screenwriter could make a really good living writing and getting paid to write screenplays that never ever get on screen. They never get made. And maybe things are a little different now, but it's also, it's not unusual to write something and not have it made. I mean Right. We sold two movies. It's a 20th century Fox. Neither got made. And when they weren't, they didn't get made. I wasn't like, you know, I was like, yeah, I didn't expect it to get made. That's how, this is how the industry works. As long as I get that, that check, you know? Um, yeah.Phil Hudson:I, I was gonna say that reminds me of like my uncle, um, he's just a small town guy, just super, he's not, he's not simple, but he just, he loves his simple life, if you will. And he was telling me that one time he bought this old truck from a neighbor mm-hmm. <affirmative> and went and bought it. He signed the bill of sale, he got the title, he drove it home and the next day the car wouldn't start. And I was like, oh, did you got sold a lemon where you're just so mad? And he is like, no, I bought it. It is now mine. It is no longer that person's responsibility. It's not my responsibility to figure out what's wrong with it. And it's like, oh, it's just a spark book. $6 car works just fine. Right. That person, you know, it's no longer that person's problem cuz they sold it to me. And this is the inverse of that. Once you sold it to them, you're done. And that's okay. I think you helped me wrap my head around through this podcast and the conversations we have is that, hey, I have exchanged a good or a service. I now have a check. I no longer have any ownership of it. I should worry about what happens to it from there on out, because I got what I got.Michael Jamin:Mm-hmm. <affirmative> some people. Yeah. Some people, they, they have asked me questions, well, if you sell a project and it doesn't get made and they don't get made, most don't get made, uh, can you buy it back? I'm like, why would I buy it back? You know how hard it's to sell that I got that money. I already spent that money. I don't wanna buy, I don't wanna buy it back. I will co I will create something else and work on that. Why would buy it back? That sounds crazy. That sounds,Phil Hudson:I think it's cause people are so tied to their ideas. Yeah. I think it speaks to maybe it's a little bit of scarcity mindset mm-hmm. <affirmative> where you feel like this is the best thing I have and I need, this is my last shot and nothing I do will be better than this or I don't have any, anything else. Um, and, and that's why they're worried about that. It might be one of the best ideas ever. Mm-hmm. But ultimately that's not your decision to make unless you want to be an indie filmmaker and then you should just go make your film.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So that's exactly right. So how then, like, I guess the next question would would be like, how do I define success if, if, if I get so much rejection, what does success look like? And to me, I think anyone listening to it, I think there's a couple. You just change your criteria. To me, success is getting, getting to do what I do on a daily basis for, you know, as long as I get enough money to pay the bills, success is like, okay, so I don't have to go to another job, <laugh>, I don't have to drive a, a cab or whatever it is. I get to do what I do in the field that I choose. And sure. Wouldn't it be great if I made 5 million? Yes, of course. But, uh, the fact that I don't have to do this other job. Okay. That means I'm successful.Mm-hmm. <affirmative> success could also just be mean. And, and for those people who are even not at that level, what does success mean? Success could mean just writing something that moves people. Like why is that, why, what's wrong with that? Like, okay, so I didn't sell mm-hmm. Did it move someone? Isn't that the goal? Isn't that why you're doing this? Is to write something from your heart that moves people? And if that's not your goal, then what are you doing? Why are you want to be a writer? What is it that you want? Do you want the parking spot that says write or on it? What is, you know, what exactly do you want?Phil Hudson:Yeah. And that's why you want your personal essays and you've, you've talked about that, right? Yeah. Is it's self pure self-expression from you without anyone else having any control over it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's not, you're not selling it to anybody. You are trying to compile it into your own book. Right. I think we've made that public, but you are ultimately doing it because it's your personal form of self-expression. And it gives you the opportunity to do that to move people, which is what Yeah. The reviews have said that people who've attended your live events, they, they said they, they've been deeply moved byMichael Jamin:It. Yeah. And that's that, honestly, that is an honor. The fact, and like one thing I, so I just did two shows in Boston and I'm trying to convince myself that I broke even, I didn't break even. Right. <laugh> <laugh> because I have expenses I had to fly and all that stuff. Um, but, um, but the, the, the gratification that I got, it wasn't even from like, like selling out or counting the tickets or hearing the applause. The, the gratification I got was afterwards, like meeting people in a lobby or outside and then getting the, just like hearing like, oh man, thank you. Like thanking me. They paid me to sit in a theater to listen to me. And yet they're still thanking me because I gave them this experience. Like, that is the gratification part. That's what I take the joy in, you know.Phil Hudson:That's awesome. Kind of backing up a little bit to this, and it's on the, the same subject you said, you need to redefine what success looks like, right? Yeah. Another thing that I think you've done really well, and it might have been a couple weeks ago, you put a post out on social media saying that, you know, if you are a writer and you have written, you are, you know, if you have written you are, or you are writing, you are a writer. Yeah. And that reminded me of this blog post I read back in 2008 or 2009. It might have been on John august.com. Um, but he talked about, someone talked about like, what is the definition of a professional writer? Is it someone who writes every day? Is it someone who gets paid for something they have written? Is it someone who has something done that you can, you can go watch in a theater? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you are writing, you are a writer.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Phil Hudson:So that is success in and of itself.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And that is, you know, someone, uh, so I let, there was a post that someone made on social media that I, I saw and, uh, not on my account. And they, they, some guy accused this other guy, uh, you're just a failed actor. You're just a failed artist or whatever. He's failed something. And I was like, man, that's such a dumb thing to say. Like, you're not failed. It's if you're doing, if you're trying, you're, how is that a failure? A failure is not trying, a failure is like just giving up before you even try. Like you're, there's no such shame as a failed artist or an artist. You're, you know, and it's like, and the, and the example that I used is like Van Gogh arguably the greatest artist of all time. You know, he died before, before he was known. He died, you know, in a, I think it was at a Mendel institution.He didn't like, he was known one when he died. So does that mean he's a failed artist? Van Gogh? Is Van Gogh a failed artist because he didn't make any money when he was alive? Like, that's crazy. You know? And so I think if you just have to have realistic, you just have to define not realistic, but you have to, to redefine how you see, uh, success and his success. If this time spent being creative, like, how, to me that's the time best spent. How is that not like what is there better? What? Well, no time spent shopping is, is more valuable. You know, time spent, stand watching tv. No, I think time spent creating, regardless of whether it gets made or shopping, you get paid. That to me is like, if you can afford that, if you have the life that can afford an hour a day or half hour a day just doing that, that's success.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, again, reframing that principle, this term we talk about in personal zone reframing, which is looking at your perspective through a different lens or mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, making a different story in your head about what it means. And I might be jumping the gun in here a little bit, but I, what I think you're getting to is one of the best strategies for dealing with rejection is reframing what success means. Because if I'm successful just for having finished a screenplay or a pilot that I love and I feel is representative of who I am today, not 10 years from now, or not my perfect myself, but who I am today, that's success. Passing it on to other people who ultimately don't like it or don't think it's works that might be rejection from a commercial perspective mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's all it is, is a litmus test for where I am today. And it doesn't expect me.Michael Jamin:And it's like what you're saying, like, to complete a screenplay, that's a big deal. That's a lot of work. You know, I I'm assuming you didn't write it in an afternoon. Like it's a lot. It's a big time commitment. A lot of thought went into it. And then when you finally finish it, that's a big deal. Most people only talk about writing a screenplay. Yeah. You know, they talk about it, but did you? And you did it. So that's success, you know?Phil Hudson:Yeah. It's huge.Michael Jamin:Um, what else did I wanna say about this? Uh, oh, there's another, it's funny, I, I had this years ago when I was writing a King of the Hill, uh, uh, another writer on a John Collier who went on to become the showrunner of bones many years later. John…

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058 - Writer/Producer Bryan Behar Dec 08, 2022

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Bryan Behar is a writer/producer known for Wilfred, Glenn Martin D.D.S., and Las Man Standing. Join Michael Jamin and Bryan Behar in this deep conversation, perfect for emerging writers or aspiring TV Writers.Show NotesBryan Behar on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0066864/Bryan Behar on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bryanbeharBryan Behar on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bryan_behar/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMichael Jamin:Someone said, well, you know, when are they gonna, are they gonna bring back multi-camera sick? They should bring 'em back.Bryan Behar:They exist Uhhuh. But they exist either for the very old or the very young. But there's been an entire generation that has been raised without them.Michael Jamin:Right? AndBryan Behar:Which infuriates me because as a historian of the, of the genre, I look back as recently as a couple years ago, and in the previous, I think 60 years of sitcoms, the number one sitcom on the air, uh, in terms of total viewers had been a multicam in 59 of the six first 60 years.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jam.Hey everybody, welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jam. I got a special guest today. But you know, the way, um, the Letterman show always opens with, you know, my next guest needs no introduction. Well, my next guest needs an introduction, but he's like, <laugh>. But, but you know what? All writers need introductions. No one's ever heard of any of us. But I'm here with Brian Behar and he is, dude, this guy's got a, he's a sitcom writer with a list of a laundry list of shows that he's worked on. I'm Brian. I'm gonna run through those cuz I'm sure you've forgotten half the credits. That's how many credits you have. AllBryan Behar:Right. I, I could name three, so please.Michael Jamin:<laugh>, we started his, his career with the illustrious teen Angel, and then we slowly move up to working. I remember that show. I'd forgotten you were on work. You had some,Bryan Behar:I started with Ned and Stacy, but that may not have appeared on the, on your laundry list.Michael Jamin:Uh, my researchers who basically just download imdb did not tell me that. But we're gonna go on the IMDB order. <laugh>, okay. That's accurate. Uh, then dag, remember that show with Andy and Eileen Baby Bob, you remember that show Baby Bob?Bryan Behar:The biggest hit I've ever been on <laugh>,Michael Jamin:Then a usaBryan Behar:And I still quit because I, as I told the Showrun my self-esteem can't handle running into anyone I went to high school with telling them I'm on Baby Bob. Sorry, Saltzman.Michael Jamin:Sorry. The, then a usa and then Andy Richter controls the universe. Guys, hang on. This guy's got so many credits then I'm with her. Although we're not sure if it's I'm with her or I'm with her.Bryan Behar:Brent Must Berger said I'm with her. So it was, I'm with herMichael Jamin:<laugh>, I'm with her. I'm coughing. Then eight simple rules. How many of the rules did you ever get to before they canceled the show, by the way?Bryan Behar:Uh, we were on the fourth rule.Michael Jamin:Fourth rule. I was on, by the way, rules of engagement. So, oh.Bryan Behar:And I've done three shows with the working of the titleMichael Jamin:<laugh>. Then, then the New Adventures of Old Christine. The, the old conventions of new Christine would've been better, but apparently that's okay. Then The Jake Effect.Bryan Behar:Yes.Michael Jamin:Weak shots. I don't even know what that is, to be honest.Bryan Behar:Oh, that was an, that was a highly touted one hour.Michael Jamin:Oh, so you can talk about some drama experience.Bryan Behar:I can talk about anything.Michael Jamin:It doesn't mean, doesn't mean what you're talking about, but you can talk aboutBryan Behar:Any Yeah, no, you're not gonna be able to stop meMichael Jamin:<laugh> then. Big. Okay. Big shots then. True. Jackson vp, which was on NickelodeonBryan Behar:One episode. I, I wrote a, I wrote a story. Let's not get carried away.Michael Jamin:All right. Let's not give you too much credit then. Wil, which we worked on together.Bryan Behar:Yes.Michael Jamin:Talking Dog Show.Bryan Behar:Oh, that's where's our other Talking dog show? That that should have been a, uh, oh,Michael Jamin:Getting there. Glen Martin dds. No one knows what that is, but that's when we first worked together.Bryan Behar:But if you love, uh, Canadian cable Claymation shows you might like GlenMichael Jamin:<laugh>. You might like it. Uh, last Man StandingBryan Behar:Like animation with a laugh track that isn't jaber. You're gonna love Glen. You're,Michael Jamin:That's how they promoted it. Then, uh, last Man Standing, which you were not one of the last men standing on that show.Bryan Behar:No, I was the first to go. ButMichael Jamin:<laugh>. Well, Jack, no, Jack was the first to go.Bryan Behar:That's true. GreaterMichael Jamin:Was the first to go.Bryan Behar:Then he came back and then he went again, and then he came back. So, yes,Michael Jamin:I didn't realize he came back. Sorry. Then saved me. I don't know what that is. Do you know what that is?Bryan Behar:Give me a moment.Michael Jamin:Was that just a letter that you wrote to your agentBryan Behar:<laugh>? Um, I did, I did write that letter from the writer's room of Save Me <laugh>. Um, that was a show about Ann Hay, uh, think she Can Speak to God. And that was the least crazy part of the show.Michael Jamin:Oh, I did not know that. We'll talk about that.Bryan Behar:Yes, please.Michael Jamin:Uh, then we'll talk about Kirsty, which we worked again on You guys brought, I mean, me and my partner in on to do a freelance of that. And I had the great Cogan on the show a couple weeks ago.Bryan Behar:Oh my goodness. Well, you, you've got to everyone before me. Oh,Michael Jamin:I I, yeah. This is the bottom of the barrel week. IBryan Behar:Know, I saw on the list. I was like,Michael Jamin:<laugh>. Really?Bryan Behar:So go ahead.Michael Jamin:Uh, I also have here Jennifer FallsBryan Behar:And does not get back up. Yes. All yes, I've heard them all. Uh,Michael Jamin:Ratings falls then Ned and Stacy we have on here. I don't know why it's, it's out of order here, but yes, that was 1997 N and Stacy there. And then finally, uh, you were the, you were the showrunner of Fuller House, the, the full House Free make.Bryan Behar:That is correct. I was,Michael Jamin:Now you,Bryan Behar:Is the first time you're hearingMichael Jamin:This. I had no idea. <laugh>, you've, now you're fond to say that I think you've, like, you've worked on 20, it's 26 shows. Is that what it is?Bryan Behar:21 shows in 26 seasons,Michael Jamin:21 shows. And think about, so this is a career, guys. YouBryan Behar:Are, this is a hard way to do it.Michael Jamin:It is the hard way.Bryan Behar:Apply for a new job twice a year.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And it's act I mean, to be honest, it was, um, it was more doable then than it is now. I mean, now it's really hard to do that.Bryan Behar:I have no idea what people do now. Yeah. Which is, which makes me a sort of, sort of a sham as a, a teacher of, of sitcoms as I'm trying to, um, encourage and promote people to take a, take the, the risk and, uh, and jump in. But, uh, I have no idea what a career trajectory, uh, looks like today. It was, it, it, it it was very, uh, understandable when we broke in. Yeah. Like, it, like there was a clearer path and you're like, oh, I can go from show to show and there's enough sitcoms and there's, you know, I can just, if I lose one job, I'll just walk to the next bungalow on CBS Bradford and knock on the door and hope somebody else lets us in. ButMichael Jamin:That's, that's what I say. I say maybe I wonder if you agree. I say that, um, I think it's easier to break in now, but it's harder to make a sustain a career. What do you think?Bryan Behar:Um, well, I'm, I'm certainly not gonna disagree with you on your own show. I mean, you, you <laugh>,Michael Jamin:Please, if you do, I just edit it out.Bryan Behar:You have your burgeoning media empire here and I looking to be part of it. Um, God, how many does it? Okay. Um, I think you're right. Um, and by that, i I, I don't know if it's harder to sustain a career. I see a lot more people not entirely willing to commit to putting a career together.Michael Jamin:What does thatBryan Behar:Mean? Which, I mean, there's been such, um, on social media and in the press, there's such a sort of hype surrounding the concept of like the celebrity showrun that, and, and sort of with the advent of streaming services, that there's this idea that anyone can get a show on the air at any time and immediately jump from like an unemployed, unemployable, aspiring writer to a show runner. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> without doing any of the work in between. Like, you know, I know I hate to sound old fashioned, but you and I, we definitely put in the time working up the rung, working up the ladder. So when we finally got that call to run a show, I, you know, we, we had the skill set presumably, you know, we had been learning, we'd been acquiring a certain set of skills. Um, and I don't know that that is really like, promoted as much,Michael Jamin:But are you seeing people with not, with not a lot of experience becoming share owners?Bryan Behar:No. Um, but I'm seeing, but I'm hearing a lot of that's the aspiration.Michael Jamin:Oh, oh, yes. That's for sure. I hear that a lot.Bryan Behar:You know, like, you know, because I know you talk to a lot of people, you know, who were, you know, aspiring TV writers. And I, you know, I was doing a lot of talks on, on Clubhouse, and a lot of ask me anything kind of talks on, on Twitter and, and the, the question always sort of circles back to how do I sell a pilot to Netflix? How do I get a show on the streamer? How do I become a show runner? And it's not like, oh, what samples do I need Yeah. To break in? What skills do I need to move up the ladder? You know, it's just a different mindset. Like, it never would've occurred to me. I didn't, I didn't even sell a pilot or even attempt a pilot until I had been on 12 networks at college.Michael Jamin:It's so fun, Brian. It's like, maybe we're just the old guys, but this is exactly what I say all the time. I mean, so I'm glad that I'm not the only one saying it, or thinking atBryan Behar:Least. No, there are, there are two old guys in the Yeah, we have become the guys from the puppets, butMichael Jamin:The cranky old guys Yeah. InBryan Behar:Waldorf and Staler.Michael Jamin:But, but you, so I wanna actually wanna mention this. I wanna jump around for a second. So yes, you are also teaching at Chapman University. You're teaching, uh, is it television writing? What are you, what's their course?Bryan Behar:Um, yeah. Um, I'm teaching, I, I just, I started last semester from, this was my first time. Um, and, and currently in this fall semester, I'm teaching two classes. One is a sitcom writing class, uh, for graduate students, uhhuh. And one is a pilot writing class for undergrads. And then I'm gonna do two, they've already asked me back, uh, for two sitcom classes, uh, in the spring semester.Michael Jamin:Wow, that'sBryan Behar:Great. Yeah. It seems to be what I do. Uh,Michael Jamin:So you're enjoying it then? I loveBryan Behar:It. I love it. And I, uh,Michael Jamin:You weren't sure if you were gonna enjoy it?Bryan Behar:No, I, it, it actually took a little bit of Mm, a little coaxing internally in the family. You know, my wife had a bit of a come to Jesus moment with me. You know how, I don't know if you've heard the old joke, but they say that in Hollywood, you're retired for seven years before you realize it. Well, I had been retired for three years, and my wife was certainly well aware, and I was, I was starting to get it. Um, and she really was, you know, she really sat me down and said, like, you know, is this what you wanna do the rest of your life? Just keep banging your head against the same wall? Or is there, is there a wall you can go around and find something that gives you joy? And this has been great. WhatMichael Jamin:Exactly do you like about it?Bryan Behar:Well, I like not being on a TV show, which apparently Hollywood, Hollywood and myself have the same, likeMichael Jamin:You do have the same goal for you.Bryan Behar:They both, my, my, uh, agent manager, Hollywood producers and teaching, I'll see it the same way. <laugh>.Michael Jamin:Um,Bryan Behar:No, I, I, I love, I mean, it, it, it's something so special to be around people who just are filled with nothing but hope and nothing but confidence. And, you know, it's really, I mean, if I have to spend my days around people who are positive and, and still love, have a love for the art and a love for the craft, and would give anything to be in television or be, you know, be by myself or be around a lot of bitter people complaining about why they're not in, you know, I'll take the four hours of driving down to Orange County anytime. Uh, it, it's, it's been great. And I didn't, I had no idea if I would like it.Michael Jamin:Well, first of all, it's not really a four hour drive.Bryan Behar:It's, it's two hours each way.Michael Jamin:Right. Okay. Um,Bryan Behar:So yes, for clarity's sake. Okay. It's not a four hour drive each way, but it is.Michael Jamin:But, and I'm sure what surprises you, cause it does surprise me, is just, is how much you actually know about how to do this. Right.Bryan Behar:That's the other fun part. I mean, that's is, I mean, and I don't mean it in like a smug, self satisfactory kind of way that like, wow, I'm, I'm smart, I've learned things, but when you're, when you're actually seeing it through the perspective of, of new writers and, you know, and new students and, and you're imparting knowledge on them, and, and it's, and like you said, it's not even knowledge that you're aware you have. Right. It's, we've almost picked it up by osmosis. But I mean, you know, me and I think you're a lot, you're really kind of the same way where, you know, we were both students of, of television, students of the TV history, students of the craft, you know, more than a lot of people who we did it alongside. I mean, so I think it makes sense. The, the two of us have found virgins of, of offering guidance and coaching and Yeah. And, you know, and trying to impart expertise. But it, it is, it is really satisfying and gratifying to, to realize like, wow, I, I actually did learn something. I actually have a certain level of skill. And, you know, all those years were not for, not, yeah. I'm spelling not differently in those two cases, butMichael Jamin:K nBryan Behar:O t not for nothing. Yes. <laugh>, I mean, I know you're from the tri-state area. I should, I should have said it more colloquial,Michael Jamin:But, um, and so, yeah. Good. So, and you're enjoying that and you, the class sizes are kind of small or what?Bryan Behar:Yeah, I had, uh, seven last semester. My grad student was, is nin…

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057 - Bob's Burger's Writer Greg Thompson Nov 30, 2022

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Greg Thompson is a writer-producer known for Bob's Burgers, Glenn Martin D.D.S., and King of The Hill.Greg Thompson on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0860188/Greg Thompson on Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregthompMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptionsGreg Thompson:Try to pay attention to the voices of the show. Know the show. Watch, watch every episode. Um, you know, when we were hired on King of the Hill, I, I'd watched King of the Hill, but I hadn't seen everything. But, you know, I methodically started plowing through hundreds of episodes at that point. I think maybe 200 episodes had happened by the time we, we joined it. So, and that's just kind of an education and you internalize the voices of the characters and, and it, it helps you. It helps you know what to pitch. You'reMichael Jamin:Listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jen.Hey everyone. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin and I got another special guest today. This is my old friend. I'm gonna, this is my friend Greg Thompson, and I'm gonna give you a proper introduction, Greg. So sit down, just relax. Let me just talk to the people for a second. Um, so Greg is a very successful TV writer and he started on bunk, a show called Bunk Bread Brothers. We're gonna run through some of, through some of the credits. I'm heard of Bunk Bread Brothers, then fired up, which was interesting. This was the heyday of nbc. This was when, uh, the character she lived instead of a clock. She was, she was a church mouse, wasn't she? GregGreg Thompson:<laugh>. Yeah, she was a church MassMichael Jamin:WhoGreg Thompson:Is second, second season. She moved into a shoe, uh,Michael Jamin:<laugh>.Greg Thompson:It was Sharon Lawrence with, uh, Leah Remedy.Michael Jamin:Ah, Sharon Lawrence with Leah Remedy. This was back in the heyday of NBC shows like, uh, musty tv. And then a show called, I'm gonna run through some of your credits. Maggie, big Wolf on campus, then one of your bigger credits. 30, uh, third Rock from the Sun. Great show, then Grounded for Life. Another great show. Everyone hates Chris. Everybody hates Chris. Everybody hates Chris. Another great show. I'm in Hell. We're gonna talk about that. King of the Hill. You were there for many years. Glen Martin, dds. I never heard of that one, but I was involved in it. <laugh> then Now, most recently you were writer, what are you executive, co-executive producer on Bob's Bergs.Greg Thompson:So I, I'm, I'm down to consulting producer. Technically I was we'll talk, I was co exec. I was actually executive, I was actually executive producer to be, to be most technical. Well, yeah, we all got promoted up to executive producer after aMichael Jamin:Certain And what happened? Why did you get bounced down to co exec? I mean, a consulting producer.Greg Thompson:I decided to rank fewer, fewer days a week. So I, I've, I've, am I, do you still want me on the show?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I'm, now I'm jealous of you. How many days a week are you working?Greg Thompson:I only work two days.Michael Jamin:Oh. And of those two days, how many days are you really working? <laugh>?Greg Thompson:I don't know. Probably four. Cuz it filters into other days andMichael Jamin:Yeah,Greg Thompson:It does over it also. Yeah.Michael Jamin:We're gonna talk about that. But I wanna get into the beginning, Greg. Cause I, I, I, so we met in the Warner Brothers Writers Program, writers workshop, or whatever it was called. Yeah, we did. And you were, were supposed to be you and your partner. Our Abrams were supposed to be the competition that me and Seavert were facing. And, but very quickly we realized we weren't, we weren't gonna, we weren't gonna make good enemies, <laugh> friends and love.But, but I gotta say, Greg, you've always been, and I know I've never, probably never said this to you personally, but you were, it may seem odd since we don't talk that often, but you were definitely one of my closer friends, closest friends in the industry, because I always feel like I, I feel like we're not in competition. I can always be, I can confide in you to tell you what's going on with my career. I never feel like I'm gonna get stabbed in the back. You always got my back. I got your back. So you, you've always been a great friend. And that's why as I thank, thank you for doing the show and helping everyone Oh, tell your story.Greg Thompson:You're, you're very welcome. You, of course, it's of course it's mutual. Um, and I'll just say at the Radcliffe or at the, uh, pardon me, the Writer's Warner Brothers Writer's Workshop, um, I was, uh, so intimidated by you and Seavert. I, uh, you like you, we were kind of sited. We were seated in kind of a big o and you were, you guys were like across the room and you already, you already had credit. You had a credit on Lois and Clark, which was like, you know, incredibly impressive. We didn't have credits.Michael Jamin:That's what you were, that's what you're, because there was no other reason to be intimidated by us. So we never said anything like, IGreg Thompson:Think, I don't know, you just, you looked, you looked the right part. Sea had this kind of scowl on his face all the time, which, which was very untrue to his personality. But he just looked, uh, super serious. Like, like heMichael Jamin:WasGreg Thompson:Interesting figuring it all out.Michael Jamin:Turns out neither of us. It was a prestigious program. And, and it didn't help either of us. It didn't help. It definitely didn't help. But it didn't help you did itGreg Thompson:Other than Well, it, it did get us, it did lead us to an agent, which then, which then led us to our first job. So it actually did help us, even though the Warner Brothers, the studio was not interested in hiring us,Michael Jamin:Right? So after,Greg Thompson:After watching us work,Michael Jamin:As I tell our audience to catch 'em up, um, so yeah, we worked together. So we never worked together. We were just, we became friends on that. And then later, then later we shared a bungalow. We both had overall deals at CBS Radford. And so we shared a bungalow. We'd have lunch together. Remember we'd hang out in your office and just talk about ideas. Bounce Yeah. Each other that think an overall deal's great. That was fun. And then later was, no, king Hill was before that.Greg Thompson:King Hill was beforeMichael Jamin:That. Right? And then later Radford, our overall deal. Then later we hired you guys on, on Glen Martin. And you guys saved our butts. You and your partner Aaron, saved our butts. And then how did I Thank you. I almost, I almost thanked you by destroying your career. <laugh>. I only remember you guys, you guys came in, was it, it was season two, right? Of Glen Martin.Greg Thompson:Yeah. Season two. Yeah.Michael Jamin:We, we brought you in. We had the money. We wanted very, we wanted season writers. And you guys came in, you always delivered great drafts, which is, is, I always say, this is all you want from a writer. Can you turn in a good draft? And you guys always did. And then there was talk of spinning off Glen Martin to a spinoff. And I remember we were like, Hey, we'll do this show. And then you could run the other show or which one, one or the other you guys could run. And you're like, eh, we got this other offer to go to this cartoon called Bob's Burgers. You don't wanna go to Bob's Burgers,Greg Thompson:<laugh>,Michael Jamin:You wanna stay here? <laugh>. And then, and thank God you took that offer, cuz I would've felt terrible like ruining your career. Cause that they spinoff never happened. <laugh>. And then Glen Martin was canceled and it jumped off just in time to go to,Greg Thompson:There was an idea that Glen Martin was gonna jump to Fox or something, andMichael Jamin:There was a lot of lies floating <laugh>.Greg Thompson:Yeah. It was probably Michael Eisner was planning these thoughts.Michael Jamin:Um, right. I forgot Fox. Fox didn't, Fox had no, had no knowledge of that. They weren't on <inaudible>Greg Thompson:<laugh>. But, uh, yeah. But yeah, I think we all thought the puppet animation genre was gonna explode. And, and I have to say, it's really funny. It's still, when I look at, I've dug up some old Glen Martin's. It is really funny. I mean, it is, it was an underrated show under watched certainly, but also underrated.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. It was, we did some good stuff. You guys wrote some great episodes. But then, so you got the offer because Bob's Burgers co-create by Jim Dore. We both work with on King of the Hill. So he reached out to you guys. How did you have this Bob about, and why didn't he reach out to us? <laugh>?Greg Thompson:I didn't probably You were working. You, you're busy. Um, weMichael Jamin:Were busyGreg Thompson:Developed by Jim DotR. I should make sure I say that properly. Created by Lauren Bouchard, developed by Jim DotR. Um, yeah, he was just staffing up. And actually he, he had hired two other guys, uh, before us. And then there, um, and gosh, I'm blanking blanket on their names. Sorry. Um, but they had a pilot going, and their pilot got picked up to production. So they had to drop out of Bob's burger's mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and then that opened up a slot and Jim, Jim called us to, to come interview for it. And we saw the That's been, and, and you guys, you guys let us out of our Glen Martin deal early by the way. You, you did us a favor that not everybody would've done.Michael Jamin:That's that is true. Now some people wouldn't. But, but I think most,Greg Thompson:I most, I think most would good, good people would,Michael Jamin:Good people let you out. Our contract. Um, and so, and how many that was 2008, you've been on that? Oh, no,Greg Thompson:That was 2000, 2010. We went over there, 10, I think we, we went over to Glen Martin. We were there for actually second half of the first season through most of the second season.Michael Jamin:Oh, that's what it wasGreg Thompson:Like Glen Martin. Yeah. So I think we wrote It'sMichael Jamin:A amazing song. You've been on Bob's Burgers. It's crazy. Like that's, that's job security.Greg Thompson:Yeah, I was thinking, yeah, it's, it's 12 over 12 years now. And I, I'm wearing, um, I'm wearing the first piece of swag we ever got on Bob's. I don't know if it's visible on camera or not. This, this, uh, old hoodie, which is now just in taters. It's 12 years old. AndMichael Jamin:Do you, is it hard coming up with stories that at the, for 12 years?Greg Thompson:Yes. Yes. Very hard. Um, also because unlike The Simpsons, which is kind of branched off into the peripheral characters, they'll do a episode about APU or whatever they used to. Anyway. Um, Bob's stays with the, the family. Right. And, and doMichael Jamin:You, how, how does the musical numbers work? How do you guys produce, you know, how do you write and produce that?Greg Thompson:Uh, well, I, Lauren is extremely musical. Lauren Bouchard very musical. So he always had, you know, a big interest in that. And he can, he can write and play. And then there are, you know, there are, uh, musical people, you know, uh, uh, on the show.Michael Jamin:Who writing the lyrics for that? Do you write some script or what?Greg Thompson:Well, we do, yeah. Yeah. Most of the writers will write some lyrics. I've written. Yeah, I've written some lyrics. And that's, you know, don't write the music occasionally. You might like take a stab at a tune for something silly, but yeah. And that's, that's like, and that's, that's like funMichael Jamin:For the music as wellGreg Thompson:Then. Yeah. Yeah. You do like the, um, yeah, we're like members of ASCAP or BMI or something. Yeah. And, um, yeah, there's actually been, um, two Bobs Burgers record albums that have come out. Didn't that sub pop?Michael Jamin:Were you with the movie as well,Greg Thompson:Though? Yeah, I mean, to a limited degree. It was, the movie was, was really written by, by Lauren and Nora Smith, who's also the, you know, his number two, she's also Show Runner. Um, and then, but all the other writers pitched in on Story and, and jokes and, you know, we looked at lots of cuts. And so we, we were, we were part of it. Uh, we're, we have credit, but, um, but they did the, uh, heavy lifting for sure.Michael Jamin:And, you know, you're kind of like the last writer, Guild of America. Cartoon <laugh>, one of the last, right. I mean, you're covered by the writer Guild, right? It's not ascap. I mean, notGreg Thompson:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's a, yeah, it's a, it's a writer's guilded show. Yeah. And I guess, like, I don't know, not to tell Tales Outta School. I think Disney is still trying to, you know, put shows on the air on, you know, Disney now owns 20th Century Fox Television. Um, still try to get, you know, II covered shows, which that's a, a guild with fewer, bene fewer benefits for your, your viewers.Michael Jamin:It's nonstarter now. It's like, it's, I, it's, it's the animation.Greg Thompson:Oh, is it really? Yeah. Okay. Things are tough. Okay. I didn't realize that.Michael Jamin:How did you, now you didn't start you, what was your career for the, for people who are listening, what was your career before you got into writing? I'll start from theGreg Thompson:Beginning. Um,Michael Jamin:Year was 1948.Greg Thompson:<laugh>. I was, I was 12. The, uh, that wasThe, I I would just say in brief that like, I always loved television growing up. I loved movies and television. Uh, and I, I became a writing major in college, uh, creative writing major, which wasn't, wasn't a good idea. Uh, but at all that time, it never occurred to me that there were people that wrote television <laugh>. I never looked at the credits. And so it never occurred to me that there would be a career doing screenwriting. Um, and so after I got outta college, I went into, I moved to New York and I got into, uh, book publishing and was a, worked in marketing for a few different publishers. Uh, book and magazine publishing. And that was go, that was my career. That was what I was doing. I was gonna be kind of a business person. And, you know, in, I wore a suit, uh, took the subway.Um, and then I went to business school to get an MBA thinking, well, that's the next step of my, my, uh, tremendous business career. And that brought me out to LA afterwards to work at the LA Times. Um, and, uh, uh, Aaron Abrams. So you bet you, before my friend, uh, had split up with his wife, he'd moved out to LA to be a screenwriter, and then his marriage had blown up. Um, so he had an empty bedroom. And I moved in with him to begin my job at the LA Times. And Aaron was trying to be a screenwriter. And so for the,Michael Jamin:From college,Greg Thompson:Uh, yeah, we kind of, we did an equivalent of the, uh, we, we did a little, uh, summer school publishing bootcamp kind of thing. Um, interesting. One summer after college, like a six week program, a little like the, the sitcom writing workshop in a way, but for people interested in publishing. Um, and so just like a summer school thing. S…

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056 - TV Writer/Producer Jay Kogen Nov 23, 2022

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Jay is an Emmy-winning writer and producer known for shows like The Simpsons, Frasier, George Lopez, Malcolm In The Middle, and School of Rock.Show NotesJay Kogen's IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0463124/Jay Kogen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaykogenJay Kogen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jaykogen//Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsJay Kogen:Improv helps this to be able to risk. You don't know what's coming. You don't know what you're gonna do. And you commit to a character and you commit to an idea and you take it and see where it goes. It's no different than when you sit down to write a scene and you're about to commit to writing a scene. You might know where it's supposed to go, kind of. But this is what really, when it's time to commit to writing it,Michael Jamin:You're listening to screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jam.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jam. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this today. I got a very special guest that none of you deserve to hear. You're just not good enough. But if you <laugh> <laugh>, But if you do wanna listen, pull over. If you're listening to your car, pull over. You gotta, because this is a big shot in the TV world. So with my guest, I have Jay Cogan and I have to, You gotta know who this guy, this guy's been around the block. Okay. He started at, I believe he started on the Tracy Allman show. He wrote on The Simpsons, the single guy, The Wrong Guy. This was back when he told his agent he would only do guy shows and everyone's like, This guy's out of his mind. But then he did Frazier. George Lopez. You did the first. I was in the other George Lopez.You're the one people think I run a Lopez. Nah, not that Lopez <laugh> or Malcolm in the Middle. And I'm leaving off half your credits. I'm just skimming through this. That class Happi divorced to Troop Wendell and Vinny Kirsty, which is where we worked together for 10 minutes. Cuz I was for the freelance episode that we did. But that was only 10, honestly. That was a real fast interaction. Then Ned and Stacy School of Rock. And then now you're doing, I guess oversharing and Renaissance. I wanna talk more about that and the new Punky Brewster. I don't know how that happened, I wanna know more about that. But, okay, so my guest is Jay Hogan and I gotta say, I never told you this, Chad, but my first job was on Just Shoe Me. And so I was a young baby writer and everyone that, on that staff, it was like Laan and Andy Gordon Con and Stephen Engel and you were one of these names that always came up. It was j Hogan said the funniest thing on Frazier. J Hogan did this. He came into the room, he did that and you were on, Honestly, in my mind, you were like this mythical character. And even at the time I was like, I don't know if it's j Hogan or Jake Hogan. And I don't want to ask because I don't.Jay Kogen:No one does. No one knows. It's true. No one knows. It's tooMichael Jamin:Bad. Just ask. TrueJay Kogen:<laugh>. I'm still mythical. By the way, just so you know, you're still, I may or may not be realMichael Jamin:Mythical. Right? Mythical, Okay.Jay Kogen:Yeah. Now you said I'm mythical. I don't know. So you don't know whether I'm real or not. SoMichael Jamin:I don't know. I don't wanna find out.Jay Kogen:I dunno.Michael Jamin:But we'll get to the bottom of this. PeopleJay Kogen:Who are driving, who pulled over, thank you for pulling over <laugh>, I appreciate it. I hope you're safe. Put your hazards on.Michael Jamin:I So Jay, I got a million questions for you, but I guess let's start with the beginning. Everyone wants to know, how did you break in to Hollywood?Jay Kogen:Oh, it was a really rough ride, man. My dad was a writer producer, and I asked him to introduce me to some of his friends,Michael Jamin:<laugh>. And let's talk about your dad. AndJay Kogen:I took it from there.Michael Jamin:But he wrote, and he wrote on a bunch of shows like Mary Tyler Moore show. What else did youJay Kogen:Write on? He did, he read, he wrote a Mary Tyler Moore, I believe. He wrote a Mash, he wrote A New Heart and The New Heart Show, Bob Newhart Show and Newhart, he wrote on The Covert Show and the Dean Martin Show and the Jim Davis show and the Donny Marie Show. And he worked on Empty Nest and he worked on a million shows and wrote one shitty movie,Michael Jamin:DidJay Kogen:Do it. It's called a soupy sales movie called Birds Do It. And my father was telling me that he can't bear to watch it <laugh>. He hasn't seen it since 19 causeMichael Jamin:Rewritten. Cause Soki re rewroteJay Kogen:It. No, he wrote it completely. No, it's his fault. He's saying he's, it's horrible and it's his fault.Michael Jamin:But you grew up around it. So I thought you were from Brooklyn, but you grew,Jay Kogen:I was born in Brooklyn and my dad moved from Brooklyn. He was working on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. And he moved out from Brooklyn to come work on the Dean Martin Show in 1968. Jesus. And that was my first experience on a sound stage, was on the Dean Martin Show on a Christmas episode. And it said, Ah, this looks like a fun job. Little did I know that writing is not a fun job. Writing is a really unfun job.Michael Jamin:People don't realize that. But what was it? So what was it growing around it? Did you talk shop with you? I don't know. TalkJay Kogen:About I, my talking shop was gonna be limited <laugh>. But even whenMichael Jamin:You got older, did he tell you how to write a script?Jay Kogen:No. I mean, here's the thing. You grew up in a family that I'm sure was a funny family. No question if you're funny. You grew up in a funny family. My father,Michael Jamin:My dad invented comedy <laugh>, he told me he made it up.Jay Kogen:So my father and mother are funny and if I try to make a joke at the table and get them to laugh, it was a great victory. So you'd hone your skills to make people laugh at the dinner table or on the living room couch. And that's kind of your writer's room training. And that's how you sort become the jokey guy in high school or junior high and become the jokey guy. So jokes, jokes were stock and trade in my house and my way to win my father's affection. So I tried to get good at it,Michael Jamin:But you still had to learn story structure, you had to write a script.Jay Kogen:Well that sucked. It took me years to do that because I was done. I had money. Most writers, we had jokes, but we didn't really understand story structure at all. We thought we knew it was funny and we thought, oh, just put funny stuff down and that'll be enough and that is way wrong. But that's what I thought. And I wrote some spec scripts and handed them to my dad and he said, This is terrible. Become a lawyer. He would say, Do not try to become a writer. This is awful. I wrote with some successful writers today who I work with in school. The Billy Ray who was at Academy Award and nominated writer and Robbie Fox and mm-hmm <affirmative>, Wally Wolodarsky became my partner at The Simpsons and Tracy Ownership. And we wrote all the time. And my father would read these scripts and go, These are terrible.Do not get into the business. And so eventually I started working on PAing, on TV shows, getting people delivering scripts at three in the morning and getting people lunches, <affirmative>. And if I got it wrong, they'd scream at me and mm-hmm <affirmative>, all that kind of stuff. But I would learn, sit in the writer's room and watch them work out stories and figure out how they did stories. So that process was really enlightening. And so my partner and I, I tried to write a script and we wrote a script with a, it's for it's Gary Channeling show. Mm-hmm <affirmative> worked out one of their stories, which were always strange. And we did that. They kinda liked the script but they didn't buy it. And then we wrote another one and they didn't buy that. But then that became a sample that we got a job at the Tracy Allman Show from. And that's how it worked. And at the Tracy Allman show, under Heidi Pearlman and Jim Brooks and Sam Simon and Jerry Bellson, I started to learn that drama had a big part in comedy. And so there wasn't just jokes, it was jokes and story and characters that you cared about and situations that had impact and stakes and all those kind of things that you know about when you're a kid. But you ignore it and go like that. What's funny?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. It's so funny cuz I talk about this all the time. I wanna say you're gonna confirm, I guess hopefully. Or maybe I'm just an old blowhard and I just sound like an old frank. But I have a feeling you're gonna confirm a lot of stuff that I say. Cause I'm always like, no, the story's the most important thing. Jokes cut. You can always interchange the jokes. And people don't quite understand that whenJay Kogen:You can be a blow heart and also be right. So <laugh>, those two things are not incongruous. But yes I will. When I talk to writers, I say that the story is first, character is second and jokes are third that you need the story is the hardest thing. Breaking a story is in writing is the hardest thing. Breaking a story, breaking it, making it sure that it pops, making sure that we're not going down stupid roads. That's the hardest thing. Everything else, the jokes are the easiest thing honestly. And the most replaceable thing, you don't like a joke, we'll cut it out and put a new joke in a character as they're very important. But sometimes you write something you realize, oh I have two characters that are the exact same person, <laugh> and I, I'm gonna condense them into one person. Or I have characters doing the same, serving the same purpose in the story. And that's not a good idea. And so the story has to come first and that's always the most difficult thing. I always recommend to all writers, <affirmative>, outline your shit. Outline what you're gonna do before you're write. Show the outline to somebody, <laugh>, get feedback on it before you waste your time writing a script <affirmative> on a story that's not gonna work.Michael Jamin:So that that's exactly right. I have to wanna bring this up cause I don't wanna forget this, but cuz my partner and I came in, we wrote, we did a freelance on the Kew Show, which we were on <affirmative>. And I have to say it was one of the most enjoyable experiences cuz it was like the last time, I mean I want to hear your thoughts on this. It was the last time I really was in a writer's room full of writers who had more experience than me because now it seems like I'm the old guy in the room now I'm the veteran guy and I really enjoyed working. YouJay Kogen:Made that in your brand, you were now that's your brand, you the experience guy <laugh>. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But it was so much fun cuz you get to hear other people's stories, you get to hear their wisdom. There was so many heavy hitters in that room.Jay Kogen:Yeah, that was a fun room. I mean I've had a lot of fun rooms. The rooms are still fun when I go and do them. So like and am the oldest guy in the room now maybe, but I'm not sure sometimes. Depends on the show. But I've certainly been around a long, long time. So I'm going on, it'll be 40 years soon. That's a long time.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is a long time. Yeah. So what do you accredit your longevity to? Is it you're getting your last three jobs basically?Jay Kogen:Well, the same way I <laugh> got my first three jobs. It's sort of praying, meeting the right people, saying the right thing, wandering into a stupid situation that you didn't know about. And suddenly they have job so not organized. And so this, they're these jobs and you should, you're going to audition for these jobs and this is how it's a much more hazardous, haphazard. There's a show here and they may need somebody and you should be developing something here and you have a million irons in the fire and we'll see what happens.Michael Jamin:So you're constantly hustling. So it's not like your agents just setting this up, Oh hey, they wanna hire someone that you fit the bill. Right? I mean it's not as easyJay Kogen:As that. No, rarely that rarely happens. And sometimes it does. But I mean honestly demographically, I'm not the key kind of person that they're looking for right now. <affirmative>. And there's a million reasons for that. I mean we should talk about that. There's a need, There has been a desperate need to make the playing field equal to all people from all different backgrounds and for many, many years, sort of Jewish white guys, <laugh> <laugh>Had a preference. So we're now the guy like me, Brooklyn Jewish, Brooklyn Encino Jewish guy is, there's a dime a dozen, there's a lot of us <affirmative>. And then there's a brand new writers coming from different areas of experience and worlds and different backgrounds and more women and more people of, of uh, LGBTQ and more bipo people. And they all need a chance. They're sort starting to get a chance. And that means there's less room for people like you and me. And there's shorter pickups and there's smaller rooms. And so it, it's become a lot harder.Michael Jamin:It's a lot more hustle. And so you're also developing, how are you going about developing? Is it your own ideas or what are you doing?Jay Kogen:Some are my own ideas, some are ideas that I have with other people that I meet and I think, oh that's a good idea. Let's see if I can fix that. There's a pilot we're working on called Oversharing that's based on a play that I saw at UCB about a year and a half ago. And so we took the characters and the lifestyle of the characters in the play. The actors were also the writers. So I went, worked with these two women in their late twenties about what it means you toMichael Jamin:Be. So you approach them, you approach them, you say, Hey, I wanna develop your show.Jay Kogen:Yeah. Yes. With the help of Naomi Odenkirk, who is a manager, not my manager, but had called me in to, had seen this and I wanted to work with her and she said this is a good thing. So she matched me with these people and we've been working on this together <affirmative> for a while. And now we wrote a pilot and we're sort of seeing where it goes.Michael Jamin:So, Okay. That's interesting cuz sometimes people, you write the pilot first you go out with a pitch but you decided to write it first.Jay Kogen:Well here's the thing, we had a couple different things going on. The writers who were the actresses who did this didn't have writing samples, but they wanted to be part of the show. So to prove that they are able to write, they wrote, so this is their first episode and they'd like to be in it too, but maybe we'll sell it without them in it. But this is to prove proof of concept. Here's this thing, we may not use it to sell the show, we may,Michael Jamin:And you kind of just oversaw it. You didn't help with the writing, you just directed them a little bit or noJay Kogen:<laugh>. Well we pitch…

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055 - King of Queens Creator David Litt Nov 16, 2022

Show notes

David Litt is the Creator and Showrunner of the hit TV Series King of Queens. He's written on shows like Aaahh!!! Real Monsters, Out of Practice, Big Bang Theory, and more.Show NotesDavid Litt on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0514439/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptDavid Litt:The lesson I'd like to impart if there is one. It really is fun to be a wise ass and funny and make everybody laugh. But you gotta bring something to the table or you're just gonna get fired. Yeah. Yeah. You've great to be funny and crazy and do bits and hopefully bring up the level of people's spirits in the room because it can get Yeah. It get arduous. Yeah. Yeah. But if that's all you do and you're not contributing, you're gonna be extraction and you're gonna get, so that, that's something that gets earned over time.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jam. Hey everybody, it's Michael Jam and welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I have a very, very special guest today. This is my old friend David Lit, who is the creator of perhaps one of the last giant hit multi-camera sitcoms. King of Queens. <affirmative> King of Queens. That's, there really haven't been too many multi-camera hits. There's been a couple, but not many. And so here he is, DavidDavid Litt:And not many that have run 25 years continuously.Michael Jamin:You mean still in syndication? You mean still running somewhere? StillDavid Litt:Never been off the air since 98.Michael Jamin:Wow. Well we're gonna get to all that. I want hear. Let me just give you a little bit of roll up. So, cuz I want people gonna wanna know what else you had done. So you actually wrote on Real Monsters, which is My wife was a voice on that show. I think we talked about that. She was DizzleDavid Litt:Dizzle, Yeah. Now that character may have left. I left to do a sketch show.Michael Jamin:What showDavid Litt:Was that? After? About six months. So I was there, but was I o uh and Crumb.Michael Jamin:Crumb. Interesting now. Okay.David Litt:Great place to work, by the way, for anybody who has the opportunity.Michael Jamin:What in KidsDavid Litt:Classy.Michael Jamin:What's that? Where you cut out?David Litt:I dunno, Classy Cupo. Oh yeah. A great place toMichael Jamin:Work. But they, Are they still making stuff though?David Litt:I don't know. They used to rug wraps. I don't know if they still do, but they're unbelievably opposite and really great to creatives. AndMichael Jamin:So, in other words, if we can build a timeDavid Litt:Machine, My first,Michael Jamin:So your advice,David Litt:My first job I got was on a Real Monsters and the earthquake hit the first day I started. Right. The North Northridge quite there. So to their credit, they paid everybody, even though they were closed for a couple of weeks. They paid everybody.Michael Jamin:Interesting. They were in the studio too. How well did you get that job? Cause okay, let's start from the beginning. You're from Queens. You live that life of King, right? And so we'll get there, but how did you get your first job On writing?David Litt:Yeah. I don't like to brag by telling people I'm from Queens, but Yep. You can't hide. I amMichael Jamin:<laugh>.David Litt:<laugh>. Not obvious.How did I get that job? Here's how I fast forwarding a little bit. I moved from New York to LA the first week or two I was there. I made a commitment. I was gonna go to every party I got invited to. Cause I'm not a party guy. I don't like going to these, but I felt like I had to make friends. I needed to meet people. So somebody, a friend of a friend said, Hey, come to this party out in the Palisades. I said, Okay. I meet this kind of diminutive little woman. Little girl. Very sweet. We chatted for an hour and I go home and I get a call the following day from her and my ego. I'm thinking, Oh ha, she's totally into me,Michael Jamin:<laugh>.David Litt:But she wasn't, as it turned out, she wasn't into me at all. But she had a job for me and wanted to know if I was interested in it or not. And of course, little did she know I was living on my credit cards. I was literally, I had four credit cards maxed. And I was taking cash off the fifth to pay the four. DidMichael Jamin:You have anyDavid Litt:Kinda, And she was going, Are you interested? It was, by the way, I still remember it was 2000. It was 2000 a week. And I was like, Yeah, I'm interested,Michael Jamin:But you wait. She and she worked for Klasky Shpo.David Litt:Her name was Laverne McKinnon. A shout out to her. She made my career, She made my life. I mean, she took a chance. She didn't know me from shit. She just thought, Oh, this guy's buddy.Michael Jamin:And you had a script ready. She must have read your script.David Litt:No, not at that point. She subsequently read something. But at that point it was like she was going on instinct. Like, Oh, this guy made me laugh. Wow. We have a comedy coming up and she, let's bring him in and meet withMichael Jamin:Him. And so she worked with in development at, SheDavid Litt:Was right underneath Arlene and Klasky and gpo. That's the Klasky and the Tupo.Michael Jamin:And they're the producers of that, the show that, But how long had you been in LA at that point? And how were you making a living before that at all?David Litt:Let me think. Yeah, she was okay. I had literally just gotten out here. I was living in New York and I was working in advertising and I was writing sketches sat, I was writing sketches for Saturday Night Live. They didn't know I was writing sketches for them, but I was doing it right. Somebody I knew and a manager named Barry Secunda. Okay. He managed Franken and Davis and another guy I feel like I owe a lot to because he didn't hang up on me. He didn't like, He said, Come in, let me read your stuff. He read all my shitty sketches that were, at the time I thought, this is genius. Now, when I read them now, I'm like, no. Yeah. So he hooked me up with a manager here in LA that he knew. And he was very encouraging.This is Barry <inaudible>. He said, Look, your stuff is great. You have the potential, but you've gotta get out to California. You cannot be a full-time comedy writer from New York. It's very difficult. And that's one thing when people call me for advice, I always ask them, A lot of people, the main thing, they don't wanna move away from their family, their home, their friends. That's the scariest thing you could do <affirmative>, but you've got to be ready to do it because you're very, very likely not gonna get a job if you're not in Los Angeles. I say this all the time, once you get good in Los Angeles, once you get Michael Jamin level, you can live anywhere in the world. Yeah. Not you a different Michael Jam. Yeah. That I have to.So I, at that point, I made the choice, I'm gonna move. And luckily I had supportive parents. They were like, Here's five grand, go move and chase your dream. They didn't make fun of me or tell me not to do it. Or I bought ps. It's not like I had much choice. I had one semester of Queens College <affirmative>. I had no other real alternatives. So you think not like I'm dropping at med school. <laugh>. So then I got here, and at that first, Let me think. Yeah, pretty much the first week I was here is when I met Laverne and got that job. Maybe it was two weeks.I don't know if I, Did I ever tell you the story of I moved from New York, I give up the most phenomenal studio rent. Anyone who knows New York, it's such incredible thing to get a rent controlled or rent stabilized apartment. I still remember $580 a month for a gorgeous studio. They had just redone it, knew everything. And I had to make a choice. Do I leave this and move? I mean, I would still be living in that apartment. So finally I got the guts to move. Okay. My agent, what happened is, I'll give a little secret, I don't even know if they do this anymore, but there's something they made back then called the Hollywood Created Directory. Right? It was a big green book and it had all the agents in it, their phone numbers, what agencies they were with. So what I would do every day after my day, my shitty day job, which made me wanna hang myself in advertising. I worked at CBS with a couple of very nice people. They were not the problem. I was the problem <laugh>, just get that outta the way.So I went out to a couple of agents in la, about three or four of 'em said, We really love your material. I was shocked. I didn't think I was going to get any agent. And as it is, I wound up getting my pick of about three or four, Not a level, but d plus level. Some pretty good agents. What we now would probably call boutique agents. The somebody at Broer was interested. Broer Carlin. Yeah. Yeah. So, right. Yeah. I mean, you of what I speak, but listen to this. It gets so great. I decide to load. I've never been to Los Angeles in my life. I load everything up on a truck. My buddy, I know one person in la he goes, Stay on my couch until you find yourself an apartment. It's fine. I said, Okay, great. I appreciate it. I get out here, The agent that decided to take me on, I don't know if I should give her name or not, but she says, I want you to meet me. There was a place called Cafe Fro. Yes. I don't know if you remember it. It was on Melrose. It was a big in West Hollywood. In West Hollywood. And I was, like I said, doing the multiple credit card thing. And I needed a job. So I had just applied there to Cafe Fro and they were about to start me on Monday. <laugh>. So here I am, meeting with my agent on a Wednesday, Thursday.So I'm right now, picture this, My stuff is still on a moving truck coming across the country with no destination because I haven't found an apartment yet. I'm going to look for an apartment and I'm gonna then call the moving company and say, Here's where you need to deliver to. So in the meantime, over lunch, as we're having lunch, this agent is acting kind of odd. And I'm like, Why is she acting so weird? So finally it comes out, she says, Listen, I need to let you know I'm leaving the agency. It was innovative artists. She goes, I'm leaving the agency. And I'm like, I'm not joking. I just got there. Hadn't been there 24 hours. Right? I'm like, Okay, well I'll go with you. Where are you going? She says, No, I'm leaving the business entirely and I'm suing them for sexual harassment. I, we'll have to get the name afterwards. Cause I think you may have had the same agent. <laugh>.So she <laugh>. I'm not joking. <laugh>. Well, I have to say that we turned out to be good friends as time went on. I don't wanna give too many specifics, but we'll talk after. Yeah, yeah. We'll talk off the air. But the good stuff is off the air. I don't want the four people listening to know <laugh>. But what happened is, and by the way, tapping this whole thing, when we get outside to get our cars, she goes, Do you have money? I don't have any money and I can't pay the valet part. <laugh>, I pay for her valet. But here's where the story turns into a positive. So I called all the agents back that I had that had been willing to take me on and that I had passed on. And I told them what happened. I said, I came out da da blah blah. Luckily I had left it on good terms. And I did wind up connecting with a great agent at Premier Artists <affirmative>. Her name was Susan Sussman. Okay. A great one of those agents that knows how to start people on their way to their first job. This is back in the days when people had actual patience with your career and would nurture you along and you know, remember that baby.And she was great. And that was when I fortuitously met this woman from Klasky, Cheapo and I, within two days or something, I called Susan Sussman and I said, Look, I think I may have a job. Can you negotiate this for me? <affirmative>. And the rest was history. She took me on. And that was that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But then why did you leave real monsters so quickly though?David Litt:I left Real monsters because I, It was a real Monsters was a Nickelodeon children show. And that wasn't, while it was writing and a great introductory job, it wasn't my dream. I mean, I didn't come out to write children's comedy and you who know me, that's not really my wheelhouse. Right. IMichael Jamin:Should go.David Litt:Yeah. I left because I had gotten through a friend a contact to do this show called The News. It was a takeoff of Saturday Night Live directed by the son of Don Wilson who direct Saturday Night Live. His name was Michael Wilson. He was the producer of the news. And it was sketch showsAnd we had so much fun. It was such a great gig. It was like everyone off in their offices writing sketches, <affirmative>. And then what would happen is every three weeks we all went down to Florida to Orlando for budget reasons and we shot on whatever that dolly would, or whatever it was. Some sound stages down there. Wow. It was such a great gig. So much fun. Now I would probably be a little snobby about it, but at the time it was just a great job. And we would write all the sketches in LA at Sunset Gour. Right. Some of the writers would write one or two sketches with each other, sell 'em alone. And the best sketches made it down to Florida and gotMichael Jamin:What became of some of those.David Litt:Got writing, got on the air.Michael Jamin:Cause a sketch writing is so specific. Did many of them go onto sitcom writing or are you in touch with any of them?David Litt:I'm in touch with a couple of them. Not many made the transition.Michael Jamin:Yeah.David Litt:I guess. What are they doing now? Trying to think. There's not a lot of sketch work for people. So if you can't do it, you're screwed. I mean, if you can't do something else, what are you gonna do? There's not a lot of work for, Yeah, I mean Sketch is a very, very specific art that you either get it or you don't. How to end the sketch. Right. Sometimes there is no end and you just chop it off in a very douchey, uncomfortable way. Right. I'm sure everyone is seeing those sketches where you're like, Wait, that's the ending <laugh>. But that said, it was the kind of job where you went in. You did as well as you let yourself do. There was no one looking at theirDavid Litt:watch.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jam.com/watchlist.David Litt:Okay. So were, I'm sorry. So you were saying you were working as a property manager? It was reaching a point though, where I was, it was so tempting to have free rent, but I was getting pulled in two directions. It was like I'm getting my sketches on the air and I'm getting a call. My toilet is Blo <laugh>. So I'm like running home from a table read to fix a toilet. So finally, again, much New York, I had to make a hard choice and get away from the comfortable, these look pretty good on me <laugh> and get away from the…

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054 - Indie Filmmaker Christina Beck Nov 09, 2022

Show notes

Award-winning, writer, director, actress Christina began her career acting in such cult films as Suburbia, Boys next door and Dudes. She was one of three women accepted into Fox Searchlights new director s program, her IFP nominated Best screenplay, debut feature, PERFECTION was part of their rough-cut labs, Independent film week and winner of The Adrienne Shelly female directing award.PERFECTION screened at The Oxford film festival where Christina won Best Actor and Best Narrative feature and also screened in the San Francisco International Women’s film festival, the USA film festival in Dallas, Texas, The Egyptian theatre in Hollywood, CA, premiered at the RIO cinema London, The Quad cinema, New York and screened at The Laemmle’ s Monica 4plex in Santa Monica, CA.Christina has sat on the juries for the London feminist film festival, the Eastern European film festival, the 100 word film festival, NC and has served head of the jury at the USA film festival, Dallas.Her upcoming projects include, EXPECTING GRACE set in Marseilles France, her short, HOOKER #2 and the punk rock pilot, POSEUR. Christina has lectured at The New York film academy, The Met School, London, Harvard Westlake, Cal State Fullerton and is an adjunct professor at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles in the film and television department.Show NotesChristina Beck's Website - https://www.christinabeck.comChristina Beck on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/cbrubylee_xtinabeck/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistTranscripts Are Auto-GeneratedChristina Beck:I always say to my students, Pick stories that you love. Pick stories that you feel like you have to tell because you're gonna be living with that story and pitching that story way beyond the script. You're gonna be pitching it for grants, you're gonna be pitching it for festivals, you're gonna be pitching it for people to watch it online. You're forever pitching these stories. But to say something visually is powerful. I think it can change minds and hearts.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need To Hear This with Michael Jen. Hey everyone, this is Michael Jamin and you're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This. We got a special guest for you today. If you are an indie filmmaker, an aspiring indie filmmaker, you're gonna wanna listen to this. You're gonna wanna meet Christina Beck, who I've known forever. She's an old friend, independent filmmaker, but she's you. She also teaches at Loyola Marmont University and the Fame Stella Adler Theater where she teaches screen screenwriting as well as film producing filmmaking, all that stuff. Well Christina, welcome to the big show.Christina Beck:Thank you. Thank you so much. I was gonna call you Mr. Jam and it's a habit. I can't help it.Michael Jamin:It's a habit. There it is. Cause cuz Christina briefly worked for me as an assistant for me and my partner on a show. And then I force you to call me Mr. JaminChristina Beck:<laugh>. it just kind of fell into this thing. Yeah, no, you did not force me. You didn't force me at all.Michael Jamin:I never did that.Christina Beck:But I will correct you Mr. Jamin. So I actually don't teach at Stella Adler. I teach at least Strassburg, but I could see where you would choose that. Oh, at least Strasberg. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Just I would think,Christina Beck:Right. Well, they're all,Michael Jamin:They're East Strasberg. Go to that one.Christina Beck:Yeah, <laugh> but sad. They're not around anymore. But the legacies are for sure.Michael Jamin:I haven't been to West Hollywood forever. Yeah. And you guys see, you got your one sheet from, That's from Perfection. Let's talk about what you're at, some of your movies that you've done, cuz Christina is an indie filmmaker. She's a hustler. She makes her movie, she writes your stuff. You also started as an actor, right? Where, let's take me back to the beginning. You basically started, you wanted to be an actress, right?Christina Beck:Yes, yes. Yeah. So I grew up here in Hollywood, actually not in Hollywood. I grew up in the Valley. Let's get real about that. So I like to call it the main streets of Studio City. And although it was very different back then, I know today it's a unaffordable, you can't even get in there. But back in the day it was the suburbs, basically. And my folks were in show business. My father was a screenwriter and an actor, and my mother was an actress, a model kind of actress. She ended up studying in New York with some very significant people. Sandy Meisner had a full scholarship for the Neighborhood Playhouse, which was a big deal back in those days. But my beginning with acting really started just as a kid. <laugh> being extremely bored in the valley and putting on shows. I was that kid. I was putting on shows, arranging the stuffed animals. If we ever had company, they were held hostage to my extravagant. Really? Yeah. It was Cabaret 24 7 and <laugh>. I know. Yeah. You didn't know that about me. Yep. I didn't know that. Yeah.Michael Jamin:I also didn't know your dad was a screenwriter. I didn't know that as well. Did he work aChristina Beck:Lot? Yes, he didn't work a lot as a screenwriter. He worked a lot as an actor. So when he came out to Hollywood, he's from Texas originally, and he came out to Hollywood and straight away got signed to William Morris, got put under contract at Universal and did a bunch of movies. But then he did westerns. I always played the bad guy on Bonanza andMichael Jamin:Yeah, Christina, I didn't know your Hollywood royalty Well,Christina Beck:A little bit, yeah. Yeah. Oh wow. Definitely the lineage is there. Yeah. But his real love was screenwriting. He didn't love acting. He really did fall into it. And he had a great look and he was a cowboy, so he played a cowboy, but he wasn't even really a cowboy. He's just from Texas. But yeah, there's this really great story. So Robert Blake, who some of us know strange stuff all around that guy. But that said, back in the fifties, he was friends with my father was friends with him, and Robert Blake had a part where he had to ride a horse. And my dad said, All right buddy, I'll take you out. And they went to, I think probably, well, I don't know what it's called now, but it used to be called Pickwick, which is in Burbank near Disney. They went out over there and not only did he teach him how to ride a horse, he helped him learn his lines. And because I heard this story later after my father passed Robert said, Your father, he really sat with me in this tiny little apartment and he had me drill my dialogue and I got the roof because of him and just very sweet old school. Wow. Hollywood, stuff like that. But that said, when my father wasn't working as an actor, he was always in his, it was dad's den type, type type, type type. He was always working on screenplays and he loved writing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Do you feel the same? Do you acting more, writing more for you? Well, are you like your dad orChristina Beck:Not? No. Yeah. No, I'm not like my dad. I, there's bits of me that I like him, but it's more acting was definitely the first bug. And like I said, putting on shows at home. But then I got kind of lucky, I was in the valley still. So on Ventura Boulevard near Vineland there was this place called Moral Landis Dance Studio. And my mother used to go and take a jazz class there. This is the late seventies. And next door was a place called the American National Academy of Performing Arts. So I kind of wandered over there and at this academy place, and I ended up joining an acting class. And my very first acting class, an acting teacher, was a man named Francis Letter. And I didn't notice at the time, so I'm like nine years old, 10 years old, and he is about 80 <laugh> or maybe seven in his seventies. And so I joined this acting class and then he asked me to be in the adult acting class, and I gotta play all the juicy, the bad seed and just fun stuff like that. Oh wow. And so it turns out that later on I found out that he was a big deal and he was in Pandora's Box, the silent film starring opposite Louise Brooks. And he's, and he did a ton of stuff for a long time. And then he was part of the actor studio in New York, and he was from Eastern Europe, but came over here right before the war, I think, <affirmative>. So that's when I really just was in heaven as a kid acting in this class. And then I also did some commercials with my brother. We were in some commercials. And then I became a teenager, <laugh>, and then I became really rebellious and mm-hmm <affirmative> got into the punk rock scene and completely fell in love with music and artistry. I mean, really at that time too, this was the early eighties when punk rock wasn't necessarily vi What's so funny,Michael Jamin:Cause I can't picture you doing being into punk rock. I guess it,Christina Beck:I got pictures. I got pictures, and I've actually written the whole <laugh> show about it. Yeah, I <affirmative>. But all that to say, yeah, I, I never wasn't like the punk rock chick. I more, I liked the artistry of it. I liked the right, And when I say that, I mean there were a lot of wonderful, cool artist people that I'd met mostly, much older than me at the time, but they were musicians and writers and actors. But they were on this kind of rebellious thing where we don't need permission to do anything, we just get to be creative. And that's what I loved mostly about that whole scene. And then there were different facets of it that were cuckoo and, and intense and lots of drugs and lots of alcohol and lots of inappropriate stuff. But then I got cast in a movie, so now it's my late teens.And my best friend, she was well there is a woman named Penelope's Theorists who has made films that we know of Wayne's World and different Hollywood films. But at that time she had made a documentary called The Decline of the Western Civilization, which is a really amazing film even to this day because she really got into that la punk rock scene at that particular time in space. And it was an incredible film. And she wanted to make a narrative film. So she wrote a script and got it produced by a furniture salesman guy. And I think Roger Corman of course. And so I got cast in that. And like I said, I was in my late teens and at that time I was kind of over punk rock and I was like, Eh, don't wanna, this is stupid. But I ended up doing it. And that is where I really was like, okay, this is the way I wanna spend the rest of my life.I loved being on set. And to answer your question, it's really tricky. I love in the realm of all that we do in terms of writing has its moments and then the pre-production, but being on set to me is definitely my favorite. And post is a whole nother exploration. But yeah, so it was from that moment on that I was just like, Okay, this is what I wanna do. And I did a couple more films with Penelope and then I moved to New York City and I wanted to be a real, I also felt like, okay, I didn't really, I need to be a real actor. I really have. And soMichael Jamin:A theatrical actor, is that why you moved toChristina Beck:New York? Well, yeah, I mean I love theater and my very best friend, you might know her, Cynthia, Man. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's Shannon. Familiar <laugh>. Yeah. So we wereMichael Jamin:Frozen. That's how I met my wife. That's how I met her. I met you through her. I met you honestly, Christina. That was the first time it was really, I met you really on real early on, but go on. When I was with Cynthia. Really? Yeah. Tour or something.Christina Beck:I know, it's so great. <laugh>Michael Jamin:But go on. AndChristina Beck:So Cynthia was in New York and at that time, for me, I felt like I really wanted to study and be a serious actor because I come from more of a film background. I did study a bit with Francis, but I really wanted to pay my dues as an actor. And I, I studied with a bunch of different great people. I auditioned for everything that was there at the time. AndMichael Jamin:Tell me, I'm gonna interrupt for a second, hold on. But tell me what your thoughts are, the difference between acting for film or television and acting for the stage.Christina Beck:Well, in my experience and what I'm also kind of revisiting lately, well when you're acting in film, it's very subtle. There's a camera and the camera picks up everything. And so when you're on stage, you are playing to the back row. People in the back need to see and understand what's going on. And it's just a very different, and I think most actors can do both. Some are, I guess more comfortable doing one or the other.Michael Jamin:But when you study and you train, do you sometimes study specifically or did you specifically for film versusChristina Beck:No, no, I didn't. No.Michael Jamin:Are are classes like that? Yeah. Just forChristina Beck:Fun. Yeah. Yeah. There's like on camera classes where people, it's for auditions I think, but also to get to practice how you come off on camera. Yeah. I never did that <laugh>. I never, yeah. Really did that. But here's a weird, maybe creepy thing. Ever since I was a kid though, I always felt like there was a camera on me. <laugh>, I would visualize, I could almost disassociate a little bit, this is a psychological thing here, but I felt, I would kind of imagine walking to school, what would it be if this character was walking to school? I almost was above myself a little bit watching myself. And that's a weird thing to say cuz actually when you're acting in a film, you really shouldn't be watching yourself. But that's where I am also a director. SoMichael Jamin:In other words, you were visualizing visualize how you would shoot yourself or is it more of Yeah. Was it more of a fantasy thing or how would I appear on, I wanna shoot myself if I was walking down the street?Christina Beck:Yeah, it's more the that one. And of course a little bit of fantasy, but it was escapism. But it was also, I was sort of able to take myself little Christina walking to school fifth grade out of it and see it from this other angle. And I don't know what that's about, but I do now I I see things that way all the time.Michael Jamin:Really How you would shoot it, where you would place the camera <affirmative>Christina Beck:Or where is the camera? Yeah. And it's such a funny thing cuz we live in a world now where everyone has a phone and everyone is documenting, everyone is shooting themselves. And that's a little different. But I guess it's similar in a way.Michael Jamin:Did you have film equipment when you were that Young? Christina Beck:I mean, Well my dad I none. We really didn't. My dad, no, my dad did my made some super great films and <affirmative> actually. Yeah, we did a lot of home movies when I was little. So I was usedMichael Jamin:To with sound.Christina Beck:No, no sound. No, it'sMichael Jamin:Interesting.Christina Beck:So yeah, yeah, being tied up on a tree and then my brother coming up on a horse and all sorts of me crying. Yeah, I got it. I got it all.Michael Jamin:Wow. Then so after New York, so how long were you in New York?Christina Beck:Three years. I was there for three years. AndMichael Jamin:Then what made you decide to come back?Christina Beck:Well, I wrote a…

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053 - Producer Jim Serpico Nov 02, 2022

Show notes

This week, Producer Jim Serpico joins the podcast. Jim's career has included shows like Lie To Me, Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll, and Maron, where he worked with Michael. Dive into his history and a deep conversation about writers from a producer's point of view.Show NotesJim Serpico on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0785351/Jim Serpico's Website - https://jimserpico.com/Bread For The People Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jim-serpico-bread-for-the-people-business-food-life/id1617829952Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsJim Serpico:We just, whenever we set up a project, we were on the set for the project and we, we started to do it so many times, we would learn what that meant. We would go on the location scouts we would do things that producers generally thought they were above doing.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. This is Michael Jam. And Phil is doing some more work today, but I got a special guest star and he's a, he's a producer. He's gonna ask a lot of, a lot of you wanna know how to become a producer. I don't even know what a producer is. We're gonna find out. But I'm very happy to have Jim Erko here. He was, listened to his credits cuz Hold on, pull over if you're in your car. All right. I'm just gonna mention some of your credits, Jim, and then I promise I'll give you a chance to talk or, or not. So executive producer of the job, a bunch of comedy central roasts can to Canterbury's Law, a bunch of Dennis Leery specials Rescue Me. He executive produced. And if you want, it's sirens as well.Benders. You're also the show owner and and writer you know, which is the head writer of that. And executive producer. Executive producer of Maron, which is how I met him. And then sex, drugs and Rock and Roll, a bunch of other comedy specials. You have a, Jim's got a big specialty, you know, his niche is comedy. And I gotta say, and I think I told you this Jim, years ago. I know I did. So, Cause sometimes people say like, How do I become a producer? Or, because it producers this vague catchall term and it can mean, it can, a manager can be a producer, a writer could be a producer. But when I honestly, when I think of producer, I, I, producers who do the job, who get their hands dirty, it's, it's Jim Sego and his partner Tom tti. And I, I, I'm sure I told you this, Jim, we were, we had a, Well say hi so people know you're here,Jim Serpico:<Laugh>. Hey, hey, I'm here. Thanks for, CauseMichael Jamin:I'm doing a lot, I'm doing a lot of talking <laugh>. But I wanna, I wanna kiss your buffer just a second cuz I, I think it's important people know this. Years ago, my partner and I wrote a spec script, and we wanted to get a, a producer attached. We sent it out. We, we had a meeting with a producer who had a production deal. And this person was an ex studio executive. And as part as their compensation, you know, part of their package was they got a deal to be a production deal. So we go meet with them, I wanna say who it was, and they're excited about the script. And they go, Oh, the script's great. You know, who will be the perfect star for this? And I, and they mentioned this actor, and we were like, Yes, that he would be perfect for the star.And then this producer said to me, the words that crushed me, the producer said, Do you know how to reach them? And I was just like, But that's your job. Like, what do you think you are doing? And the thing is, Jim, if if it was you, this is what you would've said. You would've said, All right, I'm gonna go to this costume store. I'm gonna get a, I'm gonna rent a pizza delivery costume, <laugh>, I'm gonna get a large pie and I'm gonna deliver it to them with the script inside. Cuz that's what a producer does.Jim Serpico:I I appreciate that.Michael Jamin:A producer's a hustlerJim Serpico:For, well, some are, some are not, not always required. But yeah, I have a lot of thoughts and I could say a lot about all this, but that's what I would do. I, I'd like to think that I am very resourceful in an honorable way. I have done things like I forget who was running HBO at the time, but I was, I was shopping a, a cookbook called the Mafia Cookbook with these recipes. And we wanted to do these short films tied around the recipes. And he was based in Los Angeles, It was Bob Cooper actually. And I had this $300 basket made with Italian pastas and homemade sauce and mozzarella copies of the cookbook and all this stuff. And I had it delivered to his home on the weekend. And I had never met him. And he called me on the weekend and he, he goes, I've never met you. I don't really know who you are, but I must say this was one of the most unbelievable presentations I've ever seen <laugh>. Right. And then the next time I talk to him, he passed. But at least I, I got the look, I got the look.Michael Jamin:But that's, but I, even when we met on Maron, like you were always very hands-on. Some producers will say, Okay, and then they pass it off. They, they order someone else to do it. This is what we need to do. Now you do it, you pick up the phone and you do it. Like, you're always very hands on, like, I will get this done. You know what I'm saying?Jim Serpico:Yeah. I mean, for better or for worse, I had to figure out this job kind of on my own and find mentors along the way that would show me like what to do as a producer.Michael Jamin:And then what do they teach you?Jim Serpico:Well, so, so going back, you gotta understand, like I, I started representing comedians, which is a way into producing for a lot of people, I guess. But also that I didn't learn from anyone. AndMichael Jamin:How did you get into that then?Jim Serpico:I was an assistant. Okay. This, this relates to what you were saying right from the very, very beginning. I graduated college, I got a job at a music booking agency. And I was an assistant, you know, what are what other jobs? But getting an assistant job is one of the best things you can do. If you wanna break into show business, you know, whether an assistant at a management company, an agency, a writer's assistant, whatever. I always, I believe in that. And I also believe in the philosophy while you're there, you don't have to worry that this isn't the exact thing I want to do. The person I'm assisting doesn't have the job I want to have, so then I'm gonna be miserable every day. No. Instead, you should still do the best job you can because that person as well as the others around are gonna really like you and root for you and help you in some way.But I was an assistant at a music booking agency that had Wilson Picket, Bo Didley, the Village people, Ronnie Specter, you know, these old, these groups. But they were credible people. And I said, I want to, I want to be a booking agent. Like who, you know. And I was vocal about it, and it was a small enough company. I could have those conversations with the owners. And they gave me three states to appease me and shut me up. They said, All right, you wanna be a booking agent? We're giving you bolded Lee and Wilson picket. You, you have North Dakota, South Dakota and Wyoming. Good luck.Michael Jamin:Three worst <laugh>. Yeah. Okay.Jim Serpico:And this was about 90, 90, 19 90, 91. And I literally would go and I went to the bookstore. I got this book on blues clubs and I would call information. And in 1990 when you dialed information, you would get a local operator. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I literally would have conversations and say, You, I represent Bold Didly. And they'd be like, What? And I'd be like, Yeah. Do you have any ideas on who I could call to try to book Bo Diddley? And I had no leads on where to book 'em. And I would call hotels and I would call bars. And I came up with a list of people and they were like, Are you telling me for real? You could get Bo Diddley here? And I'd be like, Yeah, I could get Bo Diddley here. And I remember we, we got a booking for, and my bosses were like, We gotta get the 50% deposit wired cuz I'd never heard of this place. Was it real? And we ended up booking a tour for Bo Didley in those three states. Wow. And and I had never met Beau at the time. And about six months later I met him and he goes, You're the motherfucker that booked me in North Dakota, South South Dakota in February. You know how fucking cold it is in February.Michael Jamin:<Laugh>. AllJim Serpico:Right. But he was joking and he was cool about it, but it was me being resourceful. Right. and then my next step was booking comedians. Not in those states, but in colleges. And I went to NA at convention and, Wait,Michael Jamin:What is that? That's the college convention, right?Jim Serpico:Was it? Yeah. I don't even remember. It's like the, I don't even remember what it, it's something College association. It's like all the people who run student activities at the colleges around the country. There's one big national convention where everyone, all the big players in college go and then they break off into these regional conventions. So I went, the first one I ever went to was the big one. And I was 22. I was barely older than the college kids. And I met these agents who had been in the business, they were five years older than me. And they were like, to me they were big shots cuz they worked at places like William Morris and apa mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but really within the company, they were like, it wasn't the the most prestigious thing to, to be known for as an agent. All right. You're gonna handle these college kids.Right. But to me, they were big agents at big agencies and they, they were selling people like Adam Sandler whatever anyone who's anyone as a standup comedian would want college gigs cuz they would pay $5,000 to 50,000 a gig. So, Right. I, I became friends with some of the agents who were there. We would hang out, we would have a couple beers. I actually threw a party in my hotel room for the student buyers and I had the agents there and I filled up my bathtub with beer. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I was networking with people and because they had fun, they would come down to my booth and book these comedians and magicians that I was selling for colleges. And those agents specifically at APA said, We are not going to these other 12 conventions. You are. Why don't you handle our comedians for us and be a middle agent and your company will get 10%, our company will get 10%.So that's what I did. And one of of those clients was Adam Sandler. And I started booking Adam on college shows around the tri-state area. And then I would drive Adam to the gigs that I booked. And that's when I got hooked on comedy and, and realizing that comedy and representing and working with comedians was a business. You know, cuz I had this personal relationship with the guy who was going on stage that night and he seemed to appreciate the fact that I was getting him these gigs for over 20,000 a night. Right. And he would then put, IsMichael Jamin:This before Saturday Night Live?Jim Serpico:This was right at right during it. Okay. D during it. But I remember he had Chris Farley call me from the set of Saturday and Night Live trying to convince me to take him on as a client to book him at colleges. And then I went into full on comedy representation at a small management company based on that. WhyMichael Jamin:Would you need to be convinced of that though? Like, what did you say, Yes or no?Jim Serpico:I did, but it never ended up working out. I think he was just like, you know who I am, I don't know if you know who I am. I do this guy De Bears and he starts doing the impression of <laugh> of the thing he's doing. And at the time I was also at a photo shoot with someone who became a client and ultimately my partner Dennis Leery, that's when that call happened. Right. Yeah. And then Dennis and I bonded and I went on the road with Dennis as a tour manager for six months with him and his band. And we became close, he started to take off. He had an opportunity based on heat to start a production company.Michael Jamin:Right.Jim Serpico:He saw something in me to ask me to do it and run it for him. I had no experience.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you had no experience inJim Serpico:That. Yeah. I think he just trusted me and none of us really knew what it was or what it meant.Michael Jamin:Right.Jim Serpico:He, he, he never had a tremendous trust in the typical Hollywood person. So I think, I think he felt better with kind of like a young person who we believed would be honorable not wrong and look after andMichael Jamin:Look out for his personism. Yeah.Jim Serpico:And, and well he was still surrounded by these other experts, you know, cuz cuz you know, at that point you know, he still, he had agents at the big agencies.Michael Jamin:But were you intimidated when you were in those early meetings with agents and other, and writers and producers and, you know, you're brand new?Jim Serpico:Yes and no. I think there's certain people that get off on trying to control the room and make people like me feeling intimidated. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it's weird because on one level I'm a very quiet, shy person. But in another, there's another part of me that's very confident. And like I could read the room and I could be tough when I have to be tough. And I don't know, I just kind of fit in. And the other thing that happened was, a pivotal moment in my career was Dennis did a movie and we got to see the movie before it came out. It was me, his agent, and somebody else.Michael Jamin:And at this point, you're working in, in the capacity of his, basically you're running his production company.Jim Serpico:Right. But also handling all his business. I was his defacto manager.Michael Jamin:Okay.Jim Serpico:But my role was, was officially, you know, partner in the production company.Michael Jamin:Right.Jim Serpico:And, and I saw the movie and I said, This movie is not good. This is gonna be a problem. And the agent said he doesn't know what he's talking about and said a lot of good things. Right. And the movie came out and did not do well.Michael Jamin:Right.Jim Serpico:And there was forever a bond in trust. And no, I didn't do it for that reason. I was just telling the truth of what I felt about the movie. And I wasn't trained, by the way, I have no training in writing or I didn't go to school for movie and film production or development. Right. I went to school for music.Michael Jamin:But did you, when you said it was no good, like what were you hoping to happen from that?Jim Serpico:Well, you got, you gotta immediately get into defensive mode and figure out what our stance is gonna be. How much press are we gonna do?Michael Jamin:Oh,Jim Serpico:Okay. You know, what are we gonna say to people? Your name's all over this <laugh>.Michael Jamin:Well, did he But he didn't write it. He just, he was just starringJim Serpico:At it. He did write it No,Michael Jamin:<Laugh>. And you had the boss to tell him it was no good.Jim Serpico:Yeah. I mean, wouldn't you want that if serious?Michael Jamin:Well, at the script stage, but I don't at that point, what are you gonna do other than I guess recut it. I mean, you can't reshoot it.…

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052 - Screenwriting Questions A Year In Oct 26, 2022

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It's our 52nd episode, which marks one full year of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. In this episode, Phil Hudson gets to ask Michael his questions after another year of progress in his Hollywood career.Show NotesMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistMichael Jamin:All writers en very few working writers that I know enjoy writing. We enjoy having written. So it's like, Oh, I just finished the script. That felt good cuz it was so hard. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jen.Hey everybody. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this, our podcast. I'm Michael Jam, and I'm here with Phil Hudson. Welcome back Phil. Thank you. It's good to be back. We, we have a special, It's good to be back. We have a special a special episode. Phil has been, you know, he's been doing co-hosting this for about a year now, and, you know, we've been handling a lot of stuff together and I guess these are your questions that you've had after a year of doing this. You know, I guess you have your own thoughts about what, what you wanna learn more, even though you're so close to, to me and we're doing it together. I guess you have more questions, so let's dig in. Yeah. Does that sound what I feel?Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's pretty close. I mean, I think it's, it's not even pretty close. It's basically what we're doing today. This thought came to me because, you know, I'm involved in the podcast. I go through the q and as with you, I hear all of these questions. I listen to a lot of your live q and as when you do them on social media. And then I look at where I'm at in my screenwriting world. I've taken your course, I've taken other courses. I got a bachelor's degree in screenwriting, you know, story development mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. and so it's really more the nuanced questions that I have about the craft and career and you know, looking at where I'm at now, six years into my Hollywood career, progressing from a pa doing an associate producer and mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, three seasons on a show, hopefully moving intoMichael Jamin:Yeah. You've come a long way in that time. Yeah. It's come a long way.Phil Hudson:I know. It's, it's it's humbling to look back on it because it doesn't feel like it at the time. A lot of time it doesn't feel like getting that coffee or going on that drive in LA traffic at 5:00 PM for, because someone forgot to send an email at 12 noon. You know, it's kind of hard to remember that. And even very helpful as a mentor and a friend to kind of guide me and be a sounding board and talk me off the ledge when I'm super stressed out about all the craziness happening.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:But it's been, it's been very helpful to, to have that opinion. And I think there are some of these questions that reflect where I'm at in my career. I think they'll be helpful to a lot of people at all stages. But for me, I think that, you know, you say there's no intermediate writing, it's all writing 1 0 1. This might be more career advice, I guess you could sayMichael Jamin:Career 1 0 1. Sure. Okay.Phil Hudson:Sure. So, we'll, you know, we'll dive in and, and, you know, just kind of jazz. I'm not a jazz fan, but we'll jazz it a little bit about some of these questions. I'm not looking for anything specific, it's just more your thoughts on these things. Okay. So, you know, as, as we've discussed on the podcast, I'm a big fan of personal developmentMichael Jamin:And Yeah. More than anyone I know. Yeah, yeah,Phil Hudson:For sure. Love it. I love growing and, and developing and, and books are my number way of doing, one way of doing that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, there's a really powerful book by a guy named Josh Waitzkin called The Art of Learning. And one of the things he talked about, he was the, you know, did we talk about him on the podcast? Does thisMichael Jamin:Don't, The name doesn't, it's not familiar. No.Phil Hudson:So, Josh Wakin was the premise, the, the child behind the, the book searching for Bobby Fisher, which became a movie. He was a chess prodigy at like the age of eight, like an International Grand Master by 17. And then he left that and he became a Tai Chi push hands world champion in his twenties. And then he became a Brazilian jujitsu black belt. And he coaches hedge fund managers on on high level performance. And he's a, he's a foiler, you know what foiling is?Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. Like fencing?Phil Hudson:No. So this is, this is a little bit different. It's like surfing, but then there's a, a fin Oh, that goes in the water. And so you're actually above the water, so there's less drag. So you're going super fastMichael Jamin:Hydrofoils. Right, Okay.Phil Hudson:So he is, he is a professional foiler now too. And he's constantly mastering different things. One of the things he talks about, you know, he starts with fundamentals. You know, he says most people start with openings in chess or in juujitsu or whatever it is you're doing. He likes to start at the end, at the end game and really say, Here's where I'm headed. What happens if I get stuck in this position where there's like three pieces on the board? And he talks about you have to learn the fundamentals, and then after you've done it enough times, you get enough volume of repetition in, you get to a point where you start looking at the, making what he calls, making small circles, big circles, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So you, you examine one position in chess or Brazilian jiujitsu enough, and then you can find a thousand ways out of that, where someone might only have one.And, and in this, in a world of screenwriting, I think about, okay, here's story structure. Here are the three elements of story. Those are kind of the fundamental things you have to know to be able to write a script. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But then there's improving dialogue, improving jokes, all those things. I'm just wondering from your perspective, where are places people can look for those circles? Like, you know, I said a couple of them, you know, act breaks, you know, making those pop jokes, whatever. Just wondering if you have any thoughts on that. What are those circles where we can spend more time and really develop? Or where have you spent time?Michael Jamin:Oh you know, sometimes you'll think of a, sometimes, we'll, my partner and I were writing, you know, we'll think of what's a bad story? How can, what's, what's a good version of a bad story? Or you'll see, you'll watch other shows and you'll, you'll see, okay, how are they doing this? And what don't I like about it? How could I, how could I do this? We do this all the time. We'll watch a movie or a show, and we'll talk about what we don't like about it and how we would've done it differently. It's just a thought experiment. We won't spend too much too long on it. And it's not because we're trying to bag on it. We're just trying to think, Okay, there must be another way around this. You know? It's very easy. I think it's very easy for new writers to think, Well, my first idea is that that's the one I'll go with. And that's so not often not the case. Usually before you start writing, you'll explore a number of different areas and go down and then, and then come back to the one, Even if it's the, the first one is the great one, you'll still explore other areas first just to make sure that you feel you're on good footing, That you haven't gone, that you're not just doing the first thing that came to your head. So that, I think that's one way to open your mind a little bit.Phil Hudson:That's awesome. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And you can watch bad shows too, and learn a lot from bad shows.Phil Hudson:Got it. Do you have any specific writing exercises you've done over the year to improve specific aspects of your writing? Like again, joked joke telling or things like that?Michael Jamin:Well, that, I talk, I've talked about this a little bit where when I was on King of the Hill, we just got there and I was in the joke room that day, so it was like five, five of us, and we were assigned to punch up like a, a scene. And I was eager to impress everybody. So I start, I pitched this joke and got a big laugh in the room and then, and so I was like, Oh, that's the winner, right? So they sent me off to the short runners, were in a different room, and I pitched in this joke and they go, Oh, everyone's laughing. They're all, they loved it. And they go, Great, come back with five more. And I was like, I don't understand. I just, I just pitched it in a room, got a big laugh, I pitched it to you, You guys loved it.You left. Why, why am I doing five more? I felt like busy work now. I was getting paid a lot, so I was like, I didn't say anything. I was like, Okay, I'll go back and do five more. But I was a little resentful of it. And I went back and I came up with 10 more. And of those 10, a couple of them were just as good, You know, they were just as good. I think I, I don't remember, I don't even remember which one we wound up using. That's how unimportant it is to be attached to one joke. It was, it really opened my mind to explore the fact that there's no one right way, and you can always do better and you can always top it. And all these jokes are disposable. And then I became really good at it. I really became good at joke writing when it was like, when I was less attached to any one of them. And then you really, and it was almost like, you know, showing off. You're like, Okay, I could do this again. I could do more. No problem, not a problem. I could do more.Phil Hudson:Hmm. Is that something that you drilled ever, or, I mean, that sounds like a drill almost, but does that something you ever said at home and just practiced?Michael Jamin:Not when I didn't do a practice, but I remember being in rooms with some of the staff writers, and we were in the joke room. This is at King of the Hill. And and they were on, so we're pitching on a joke. And then some of them, they were new, so they were pitching lines that weren't good yet. And I took it as a challenge. How can I make the line that they said, How can I make that funny and then use it and then give them credit? You know what I'm saying? It was more, it was like a, it really was just a test for me. Like, they'd pitch it and I go, Nah, that's not good, but what about this? And I twist their words around and I add it on a little bit, and then I get a laugh and I go, Good for you. So you did it. You know? And I give 'em credit for it. But that was part of me just I was really doing for myself. How can I, you know, it was more of a challenge.Phil Hudson:Got it. It, it seems to me from my conversations with you and the conversations on the podcast, that the real, and again, this is just speculation. It seems like the real place where you're getting in these repetitions and practicing this stuff is just sitting down with sea, your writing partner and just writing and writing and writing and writing. Would you say that's accurate? Is that,Michael Jamin:Is that the Yeah, I mean, we write so much. I don't even remember what we've written. Sometimes we'll revisit an idea from years ago and I forgot all about it. Or sometimes we're writing so much, I forget the names of the characters of a, you know, a pilot we're writing or, you know, Cause we do do a lot of it. You know, we're constantly working. And so yeah, you know, there's, there's always work to be done. There's always new stuff to come up with.Phil Hudson:I had that conversation with Steve Lemy. I was over at his house helping him with his internet and getting his stuff set up for posts for Tacoma fd. And I saw this stack of scripts just on his bookshelf. And I said, Yeah. Oh, are those your scripts? And he says, Yeah, that's, that's a bunch of 'em I've written. I said, That's fascinating. We started talking about where I'm at in my career and some of the other opportunities I've been offered to go down the producing route versus the writing route. And, and trying to get his feedback. And he said, You know, I'm gonna call BS on anybody who says that they took a producing job. And then that stopped them from being a writer. Because if you wanna be a writer, you can write and you can just write and you can just find time to write. Cause that's what you have to do. He said, You know, I used to work when I was waiting tables, I'd work two doubles so that I had five days of just writing time, and that's what I would do. Oh, wow. And he said, I wrote good 20 scripts. I've taken 10 out. Four of 'em have been made, says, so this, you just gotta keep writing and writing and writing, and if you wanna be a writer, you can make it happen.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. So that's, he's successful. So there you go.Phil Hudson:If you had to ballpark how many scripts you've made, how many do you think you've done?Michael Jamin:How many we've written?Phil Hudson:Yeah. You and c written just ballpark.Michael Jamin:Well, are you talking about ones that have been produced or like ones that haven't sold?Phil Hudson:It's just specs. You've writtenMichael Jamin:Specs. Geez. you know, dozens. He's, I mean, I mean more than dozens specs that we've, I mean,Phil Hudson:Yeah. I'm not necessarily talking about like you're on staff and you get a script, but I'm talking more like you and Seabert sit down and you come up with an idea. You're not on a show and you're just writing and you're riding. You take it out, you pitch. It doesn't go anywhere. Yeah. Maybe it goes somewhere.Michael Jamin:Yeah. you know, probably less than 50, but a lot. Plenty. Yeah. And, and some of them we've sold and some of them haven't. Most, well, most of them haven't, you know? Yeah.Phil Hudson:So just I think that kind of puts into perspective the amount of work you have to put out there to Yeah. Make it,Michael Jamin:Yeah. 50 may be a little high, but, you know, it's a lot. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. There you go. All right. So having known you and your wife for many years at this point, I think one of the things that I appreciate about you is that you really seem to have a really strong work life balance, Right? You talk about how you go on walks with your wife, you know? Yeah. You, you prioritize that alone time with, with her. You raised two daughters. You know, you've, you've got what, again, what I would say is pretty strong or significant work life balance. I'm just wondering how you prioritize things in your life, life.Michael Jamin:Well, I actually, I was thinking about this the other day myself, and I probably would've been a more successful writer had I worked the game, had I networked more, had I gone to more functions and soc been more social for sure. But it was just never my priority. I always want, I like being at home. I like being with my family. I think I'm extremely lucky that when my children were, were little, those, those years, you know, the, they go, they fly by those little, and I was alway…

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