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071 - Mom Writer Chandra Thomas Mar 08, 2023

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Michael Jamin sits down with good friend Chandra Thomas who was also one of the writers for the TV show series Mom. Learn about her experience working in Hollywood and on the show.Show Notes:Chandra Thomas IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1817889/Chandra Thomas Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chandrathomas/?hl=enMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TranscriptMichael Jamin (00:00):Is the hustle never ends. ItChandra Thomas (00:02):Never, it never ends. Right. That's why I'm so not into the, the phrase break in, because I think sometimes people think like, once you break in, right? It's like glass. You break in the glass, no long, the glass no longer exists. You're in the space, it's over. But like, it's not <laugh>. You have to carve is how I say. You have to carve in. Like there's constantly more material in front of you that you have to sort of, you know, make your way through.Michael Jamin (00:30):You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin.(00:38):Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear the, I don't even know the name of the podcast. I screwed it up. Screenwriters need to hear this. It's, I'm gonna roll with it. And I got a great guest today. This is, this is Chandra Thomas and she's the, she was a writer for two Seasons on Mom before the show, before the show got canceled. It's not her fault though. Don't blame her. And then, and then I met her last year on, on Tacoma FD and she's amazingly talented. She's wonderful. And and she was also an actress. And you, if you, you should be wa everyone should watch this cuz you look at, oh yeah, she's beautiful. She's an actress. You could, you could see why she'd be an actress and, and, but she's gonna talk about her journey. Chandra, thank you so much for joining me on the showChandra Thomas (01:21):Chairman, on the ones, thank you for having me,Michael Jamin (01:26):Chandra. You don't know this, but if we were, because last year we were on Zoom, so all the writers were on Zoom, but if we were in person, I would've probably made you sit next to me. Every, every <laugh>Chandra Thomas (01:37):<Laugh>.Michael Jamin (01:38):I'd be like, Chandra, what's going on over that guy? Or that, you know, we would be whisper like passing notes to each other.Chandra Thomas (01:43):I love that. It would've been like high school all over again. <Laugh>. It would've been great <laugh>Michael Jamin (01:49):Ass. It couldn't do it. And I,Chandra Thomas (01:50):So one thing I just do wanna clarify, I was on the final season of Mom, so just one season, unfortunately on that show. But I absolutely loveMichael Jamin (01:57):Two season, so you definitely, yeah. So you was def definitely your fault then in this show? Oh,Chandra Thomas (02:01):So not my fault. I would've had that show run for another 300 seasons.Michael Jamin (02:05):You wanna keep that gravy train rolling. But I wanna talk about, I got so many questions for you.Chandra Thomas (02:10):Okay.Michael Jamin (02:10):And I know some of the answers, but most of 'em, I don't know. Cause I know, okay, I remember, I know you went, you graduated Vanderberg College. Was there always your ambition to be a writer or actor even in college?Chandra Thomas (02:20):So when I started at Vanderbilt university in Nashville, Tennessee I was like, not sure what I wanted to do, but probably law because I am a first gen, my parents are immigrants and like, if there's anything in immigrant parents gonna tell you is you gotta do law medicine, own a business or being engineer. And I didn't, I did not like the idea of like, somebody could die on my watch. So I was like, not a doctor <laugh>, like, definitely not that. Engineer physics was a little rough for me, so I was like, no, thank you. And maybe would own a business at some point, but it sort of ended up being law was where I was sort of drawn to. AndMichael Jamin (03:03):Then what did you, who did you major in?Chandra Thomas (03:05):So then in my first year, in my first semester at Vanderbilt, I I was into theater just like mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. I had done theater in high school and in middle school, and my parents had taken me see a ton of plays. I'm from New York, so we, you know, go to Broadway and see plays. And I just had this like, sort of like Thanksgiving revelatory moment where I was like, oh no, I, I wanna like be in theater. I wanna just be on stage and write stage and make plays happen. And so I came home and had to tell my immigrant parents that like, I was gonna do this theater thing, which they were like, what <laugh> what does that even mean? That's not why we came to this country. You know, at first, now they're like literally the co-chairs of my fan club. They are incredible.(03:49):But so then I decided to double major in theater and sociology. So I got two bachelor degrees from Vanderbilt. And then when it was time to graduate, everybody was like, cool, let's go get jobs and do stuff like that. And I was like I know how to go to school, I'm gonna keep doing that. So I went to Columbia university in New York and got my M F A in acting. And so started working as an actor pretty immediately and very consistently. But at the same time was always writing, was always producing, especially in theater. Transitioned pretty quickly to sketch and improv was at the U C B A ton and then transitioned into indie film, indie short form content, digital shorts, and just really was like about storytelling. Most people sort of in immediately sort of knew me in front of the camera, but I was sort of always working on the other side as well. And soMichael Jamin (04:41):Were you writing for yourself inChandra Thomas (04:43):The long,Michael Jamin (04:43):Were you writing, say again? Were you writing for yourself when you were acting or were you just doing other people's work?Chandra Thomas (04:48):At first I was writing for myself, and then I think as like most theater practitioners do, I was like, I need to start writing for other people too. <Laugh>. Yeah. So I wrote a whole bunch of solo shows. I have a, like, ton of solo shows that I was doing all over theMichael Jamin (05:02):Place. And who were you staging theseChandra Thomas (05:05):Different places? Sometimes in somebody's living room, sometimes in the theater, you know, a lot of New York off Broadway, off off Broadway spaces,Michael Jamin (05:13):But So were they, were they one man show or like one woman show? Or is it, or youChandra Thomas (05:18):Know Yeah, solo a ton of, I did several solo shows. Yeah. I have one that's called A Rhyme for the Underground, which is, I play 17 and a quarter characters and it's set in the subway, the New York City subway system. So yeah, I was doing solo shows. Yeah, yeah,Michael Jamin (05:31):It's interesting. But then, okay, so then when you're even theater, were you booking because people miss this part? Like were you booking the, the theaters yourselves or were you pitching it to theaters? Like how, how did you put 'em up?Chandra Thomas (05:44):I, a mix of things like, so once I got sort of plugged into the sort of indie theater producer circle, we were putting up each other's work. I was putting up the work, I was submitting it to theater companies that were putting it up in some who'sMichael Jamin (05:57):Putting up the money forChandra Thomas (05:59):Ways,Michael Jamin (05:59):Who's putting up the money?Chandra Thomas (06:01):We, you figure <laugh> you figure it out. <Laugh>, you're not, you figure it out. I mean, and who's putting, you know, sometimes for some of the who's, who'sMichael Jamin (06:11):Putting, who's putting all the butts and seats, who's selling, who's getting people to show up,Chandra Thomas (06:17):That becomes the artist's job. That's the big thing. Right? So in some theaters we'd be able to do like port, like proceeds from the ticket sales, right. You know, sort of split the box office is essentially sort of like the way people sort of shorthand it. And so that would be one way in terms of getting bus in the seats though, that would always fall on the artist. So you know, this is before sort of social media was as like readily hot as it is now to like, sort of share those kinds of things. So it became postcards and flyers and putting up posters in storefronts and Absolutely. Emailing friends and texting people to come. And so yeah, it was like a lot of literally gorilla marketing in the most purest form.Michael Jamin (06:58):How many seats are you talking about in these theaters? How big are they?Chandra Thomas (07:01):So most of these theaters are 99 and under, which is part of theMichael Jamin (07:06):Right equity waiver.Chandra Thomas (07:07):Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, well, different in LA they call 'em waivers in New York, they're just theaters. Okay. so you can work under an equity contract. I know in LA these sort of like wave, like working under the union. That's not how we do things in New York. So it would be a special showcase contract is what it's called. And so you'd be able to sort of like, you know, like folks most, again, it was, most of us were like in each other's shows, so we would just sort of do the showcase code and, and and do the show. Yeah. And we'd do it under union rules, you know, as a showcase codeMichael Jamin (07:41):Production. What do mean, what, what does that mean under union rules?Chandra Thomas (07:44):Under equity actors equityMichael Jamin (07:46):Rules? Yeah. Well, what kinda rules are we talking about?Chandra Thomas (07:48):Oh, like, just making sure that like, there's a place for you to change your clothes <laugh>, like, you know, put on makeup, essentially a green room or, and like <laugh>, I'll come back in a second. And, you know like if you're being asked to do something that's way above sort of like the standard expectations of an actor that you would be under that's either under a different agreement or you'd be compensated appropriately for those things that we don't, you don't get paid necessarily at the minimum rate. Like, you may get paid in hugs or you may get paid in like, you know, a few dollars. So, you know, it's a, it's just sort of like very basic, just treat, you know, treat them like human beings, you know, treat us like human beings. Something. And the thing I was gonna say to come back to is like, for example, the like having a space to change our clothes. Like sometimes those were basements, like literally basements, just dank places. There are people now who are in, who are literally a lists on a lists for production, for studio features and like, people names that people would know that like me and them were doing basement theater. Like we're in between. During the intermission we had to go plunge the toilet cuz it was flooding in the middle of our shows.Michael Jamin (09:04):This is so important that people hear this because like, this is what, this is what breaking in looks like, you know, doing, starting from the bottom. People wanna start at the top. People was like, how do IChandra Thomas (09:13):Literally, the bottom art atMichael Jamin (09:15):The bottom,Chandra Thomas (09:16):<Laugh> literal bottom.Michael Jamin (09:17):So like, so for one show, let's say you put up a show, how many nights would you, would you have put it up for? Or just once?Chandra Thomas (09:24):If I were putting it up, it depends on what the show was. And depends on under what umbrella, because I was producing independently, but I was also producing because I had co-founded a nonprofit with teen girls who wrote and created their own productions, ro own shows speak from their authentic voices. And so if I was producing their work, we would usually have maybe or two to four night performance. Right. If I was producing sort of other work, the showcase code allows for 16 up to 16 performances. Okay. and so sometimes they'd be one-offs and other times, you know, they would have like a little bit of longer run. And if they were outside of the showcase code, if they were like the next tier up then, you know, you, we'd run for maybe four weeks,Michael Jamin (10:13):Four weeks. And then how many, there must have been times where you put up a show where, okay, you got a full house and then you only have a couple people sitting in the theater. Is that that, did that happen?Chandra Thomas (10:23):Absolutely. Very often as an actor, you know, whether it was something I was producing or somebody else was producing and I was an actor in one of those little tiny, tiny theaters. And often Friday nights were often rough nights to get people in. Because I guess like, sort of the, the, the thought is people are like not ready. Like, you know, they're, they like wanna unwind. They're not ready to be like outta play necessarily, or small theater play. Saturday nights were often our strongest nights. And there were definitely times where there were more people on the stage than there were in the audience. There's no <laugh> that's like question.Michael Jamin (11:07):But that's great that you're saying all this. So how does this, this very humbling beginning, like how did, how did it help you? Because a lot of people would think, I'm not doing this. So how did it actually help you?Chandra Thomas (11:17):I am incredibly grateful for that time and mm-hmm. <Affirmative> used so many of those skills now that I didn't even realize I was developing at that point. First of all, being able to work outside of, of a, a corporate structure to let people know what the ideas, what the message is, what the story is, is something that I like, I use all the time. Having to engage people, just even as simple as like getting a shop owner to hang a poster in their, in their storefront Right. Requires a, a sales pitch, a way to engage them that is a skill that I use now multihyphenate, which, you know, I sort of, I really proudly embraced is something that I learned and built then. And like, you know, still capitalize on those things now as an actor, being able to pivot in the moment and then taking that kind of skill into a writer's room. Like hearing things, being able to see what's the direction that everybody's got, you know, mo helping to move that train forward. Those were all things that like the, the, at least the groundwork for that was so laid during that time period.Michael Jamin (12:23):Right. So none of this is wasted experience. All of it was good. No,Chandra Thomas (12:26):None of it. One of one of my favorite mentors, she says none of it is wasted. It's all story. And so yes, it is like, like if nothing else, it's story for sure. Right,Michael Jamin (12:36):Right. And then, and then you said you had people you work with o other people in your circle and you're at bottom of this, the people, the bottom of the basement in your circle who went on to much better things, right? Oh,Chandra Thomas (12:47):Absolutely. Yeah. People who are serious regulars now, folks who are in, you know, movies that we're going to see in the movie theaters, in the Marvels, in the dcs and the all. Yeah, absolutely. No question.Michael Jamin (12:59):See, it's so interesting cuz people say to me, you know, on social media, they reach out and they, they think the goal, they think maybe y…

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070- Kung Fu Panda Writer Jonathan Aibel Mar 01, 2023

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Michael Jamin sits down with one of his good friends (and former bosses) Jonathan Aibel who was a movie writer for Kung Fu Panda 1-3 and has worked on other greats like Trolls, Monster Trucks, The SpongeBob Movie: Sponge Out of Water, and Monsters vs Aliens. If you dream of being a movie or TV writer, you won't want to miss this podcast episode!Show Notes:Jonathan Aibel IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0008743/Jonathan Aibel EMMYS: https://www.emmys.com/bios/jonathan-aibelJonathan Aibel Rotten Tomatoes: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/celebrity/jonathan_aibelMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated Transcript:Jonathan Aibel (00:00:00):We knew storyboards, we knew how to read storyboards. We knew what happens in an editing room and how actors perform, right? So we came to it with production skills or an, an understanding of the process that that helped us come in and say, oh, I think you can, you can cut a few frames there and actually know what we were talking about.Michael Jamin (00:00:23):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin, and I got a great guest for you today. This is my, this is one of my, this is one of my first bosses, actually. And yeah, yeah, John, it's true. I am here with John Abel one of the partner, he, his partners Glen Berger. I'll have him on in a future episode. So tell him to just relax. I know he wants toJonathan Aibel (00:00:51):Be, let's see how this goesMichael Jamin (00:00:52):First. Yeah, he'll, exactly. So yeah, and this guy's got a ton of credit. We, he's a real life movie writer. So let me give, I'm gonna sell you a, I'm gonna sell you, John, and then I'll let you talk for a second. But first let me talk, let me sell you up.Jonathan Aibel (00:01:04):That's fine.Michael Jamin (00:01:04):Proof everyone knows, like, I'm a, people say I'm a good creative writer. Wrong. I'm gonna prove it by selling you here, by building you up. So he's written on a u s a, he wrote run on King of the Hill for many years, including he was the showrunner, season five, cos Showrunner Mar. He also worked on Married to the Kelly's. That was his tv. That was his run in TV, I think. And then he went on to write Kung fu Panda, Kung fu Panda two, Kung fu Panda three proving like, you know, milking that thing, just milking that Kung fu panda thing. And then trolls, monster Trucks. And you've had a couple, couple upcoming stuff I want to talk about. Jonathan Abel, welcome to the show.Jonathan Aibel (00:01:46):Thank you. That was okay.Michael Jamin (00:01:48):What wasn't good? What should I have said?Jonathan Aibel (00:01:49):Well, you, king of the Hill is six years and like, that was six six. That was great TV. And then, and then you kinda mentioned some things. I was on six weeks with the same,Michael Jamin (00:01:59):Yeah,Jonathan Aibel (00:02:00):The same emphasis.Michael Jamin (00:02:01):I'm pretty sure, but I'm pretty sure. So they're not equal, you're saying, you're saying, well,Jonathan Aibel (00:02:07):You know, some, some are hits and some are are learning experiences. I'mMichael Jamin (00:02:12):Wearing my shirt for you by the, my King of the Hilter. But let, lemme tell you something. Let me tell you let me tell you something else. So will you, you guys, you and your partner Glenn hired basically, hi. You and Richard Pell hired us to be on King of the Hill. I think there was an opening because of Paul Lieberstein who left. And we literally took his office. So I credit I thank you for that. Oh, you'reJonathan Aibel (00:02:30):Welcome.Michael Jamin (00:02:31):When we got, when we joined the show, it was like, you know, it's your responsibility to get up to speed. So I asked for every script that was written or every, you know, anything on DVD that was already shot. And I distinctly remember reading all your guys' scripts, you and you and Glen Scripps, and just thinking, man, every script you wrote was just tight. It was so tight. And you'd come outta the box with a big joke. And it was just so well written. And like, you know, I didn't, there was 20 writers in the show, but I remember that your, your scripts always stood out like, man, these are always,Jonathan Aibel (00:03:02):You know, IMichael Jamin (00:03:03):Appreciate that. Always good. Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:03:04):I also appreciate your your diligence.Michael Jamin (00:03:07):My diligenceJonathan Aibel (00:03:08):Well, to come into a job and say, let me read everything. Lemme seeMichael Jamin (00:03:12):Everything. Oh, is, I didn'tJonathan Aibel (00:03:13):Think that was, it was a bit of a challenge with a hundred episodes.Michael Jamin (00:03:16):Always dreadful. The whole thing was a horrible experience. It's a lot to, but I remember. But you have to do it. You have to. That's how you get the voice of the characters and but the, to like, what kind of show episodes are being told. I remember, I dunno if I ever told you this, but I remember we had just, we were on just Shoot Me, you know, for the first four years. And I remember after the first season, king of the Hill was up against to shoot me. And I remember I was actually house-sitting for Steve Levitan for some reason. And and we were watching, I, we threw a big party. He, he wasn't in the house. And, and we were watching King of the Hill. It just came on. It was the, it was, you know, the Bobby's falls in love with the, with the dummy. And I, and I remember watching thinking, oh no, this is the competition. <Laugh>, this is really good <laugh>Jonathan Aibel (00:04:01):That we used to watch. Just shoot me all the time in the writer's room feel that same way.Michael Jamin (00:04:06):Is that right? I didn't know that. I don't, I don't think so,Jonathan Aibel (00:04:08):But I, I just feels like it would, it should be.Michael Jamin (00:04:11):Yeah. You, you actually used to reciprocate.Jonathan Aibel (00:04:13):That'd be a nice thing to say.Michael Jamin (00:04:14):It would've been. But yeah, so Damn, Michelle was, and I still get, I, even today I get a ton of compliments on, on King of Hill. But tell me more. Tell me how you broken. How did you guys even get on King of Hill Hill?Jonathan Aibel (00:04:28):We were very lucky in that before we even moved to California, we, Glen and I met, we were management consultants and we met someone at this consulting firm who was college roommate with Greg Daniel's wife. And when we first started thinking maybe we don't wanna be consultants and would prefer to be comedy writers, she said, you should talk to Suzanne. Give her a call. So we called Suzanne to say, could we, we know you're Frank, could we talk to you about writing? And she said, you really wanna talk to my husband? So she put Greg on the phone. He didn't know who we were. We, he then I, whatMichael Jamin (00:05:11):Was Greg doing at that time?Jonathan Aibel (00:05:13):He had moved to la I think he was doing Seinfeld at the time or had done the freelance, the parking spot on Seinfeld. Oh, I didn't, yeah, he'd come off of snl.Michael Jamin (00:05:24):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:05:25):And he gave the most basic advice that now you would probably give people, or you'd Google this. And it was, and Glen wrote it down, it was moved to Los Angeles. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Okay, okay. What else do we need to do? Like the how do you become a writer? And just super helpful in that regard. And then we moved to LA and never ran into him until King of the Hill. We had our first meeting and Glenn, I think he may have brought the pad and said, it's your fault. We're here.Michael Jamin (00:06:00):But how did you get the meetingJonathan Aibel (00:06:02):That, that it was just through our agent. There's this new show starting up, it's animated. I don't wanna do animation. I know, I know. And it's non gild. Yeah,Michael Jamin (00:06:12):I know aboutJonathan Aibel (00:06:13):That. And you're gonna work in a full year for 12 episodes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Well, this sounds terrible, but it's Greg, it's Mike Judge who's coming off of Beavis and Butthead. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you will learn a lot whether it's a hit or not. And we thought, well, that's probably the best reason to, to take a job. There's nothing to see. There was no pilot even, there's just a script. Right. There are no voices to listen to. It had been cast. So it was really just going under the assumption that, well, anytime you think something's gonna be a hit, it never is. So let's take a job just based on the people. And I don't think at that moment we had there, it wasn't like, do we take this or do we take this? It was, well, do we take this or do we just hang on? And, but you had no, I think maybe we hadn't,Michael Jamin (00:07:04):You didn't have any other credits before that, did you?Jonathan Aibel (00:07:06):No, we had done, we started off, oh, we did an episode of the George Carlin show. We had done, youMichael Jamin (00:07:13):Were right down the hall from me. I didn't know that. Cause I was a pa.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:15):Right. Well, we had done a freelance. A freelance,Michael Jamin (00:07:17):Doesn't matter. You were in the Warner Brothers building, building 1 22 or something. Cuz that's where it was.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:21):Well, here. No, cuz here's our great George Carlin story is that we wrote this script for Sam Simon. Right. We turned it in. We get a call a few weeks later from someone at the studio who said, great episode. And we said, oh, you read the script. Well read the script. Did tape last night.Michael Jamin (00:07:42):<Laugh> <laugh> just slapping the face. Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:47):We were not invited to our own tape. So we watched, we had a party, we watched it at home. Look, our first, our first big creditMichael Jamin (00:07:54):That, but that's amazing too. How did you get, how did you pitch that? You're skipping all this good stuff.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:59):Ah, our agent just back then we were, we were new. I think we had a couple, we've done a, a sketch show on Nickelodeon that got us in the guild that got us an agent. And interesting. He just put us up for stuff. So one of them was this freelance of of Carlin. And one of the other things is we went to pitch Sam mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, who it was, it was a hazard. Like he had a deadly sharp throwing stars on his table. So you'd go to like, oh, what's the paperwork? Don't touch those. They were razor sharp. And he also had a couple vicious dobermansMichael Jamin (00:08:42):In the office. Yeah, I remember that. I remember that.Jonathan Aibel (00:08:44):Then he also had, what we assumed was his story editor sitting at the table as we pitched him some story ideas. And then we left and realized, no, that was his next meeting. The next writer who's gonna pitch story idea sat at the table while we pitched ours. And then we left. And he stayed and pitched his,Michael Jamin (00:09:02):That's a littleJonathan Aibel (00:09:03):Unusual. It was a very, it was, it was a very odd thing. But that worked out in the sense that we got the freelanceMichael Jamin (00:09:10):Your scripts must have been very good then. I mean, cuzJonathan Aibel (00:09:13):I don't think they, I don't think so.Michael Jamin (00:09:15):It must have been if you would've got an agent that easily and got to be able to pitch these shows.Jonathan Aibel (00:09:19):Well, the, the agent, I don't know if it was easy. We, well, what happened was what Mo what happens to most people is you come out and you think, we need to find an agent. We need to get an agent. We're not gonna get a job without an agent. Right. And then you meet all these agents, they love you, they love your stuff, and they say, get a job. I'm happy to sign you.Michael Jamin (00:09:37):Yes.Jonathan Aibel (00:09:38):And we realized we're not going to get work, but just an agent. We need to get work somehow. And just by knowing people, talking to people, we wound up at M T V. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> doing a game show.Michael Jamin (00:09:54):Which show was that?Jonathan Aibel (00:09:55):It was called Trashed. Think It finally Made it there. We just worked on the pilot and then got to know people on the, on the hallway. We share, we were in damn TV buildings. And next door were some writers on this Nickelodeon show. And a couple of the writers had just left. And someone said, oh, I hear they're, they're looking to hire. Wow. So we said, Hey, we, we've got sketches. Can we, can we meet? We the executive producer read our stuff, met with us, and said, yeah, I'll hire these guys. We went to our agent, the, the potential agent, and said, we just got offered a guild job. Do you wanna represent us? You, there's no negotiation other than you say, yeah, I think I can get my boss to sign you. Sure. And that was it. And then we were in the Guild. We were having fun writing, and I had had credits, but I, I wouldn't say we necessarily knew how to write. We knew how to be funny and come up with gags mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But the idea of how do you write a scene, how to you write a script was right. Was a little bit mysterious.Michael Jamin (00:11:01):But, and so you, I so you met Glen, you were just, you were, he was a coworker at when you were in your consulting firm. And then how did you both, like, did you, so you never even dreamed as a kid of being a writer. It was ne like, how did this come out of, where did this come from? This writing thing?Jonathan Aibel (00:11:14):I don't think I had any idea that people wrote for a living.Michael Jamin (00:11:20):Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.Jonathan Aibel (00:11:22):Like, you didn't, you'd watch shows and you wouldn't think, I don't, I don't really know what I was thinking. Like, if I went to see a play on Broadway, I knew a human had written it, but there's something about TV where you would think like, I don't know, those are characters who would say these words and you don't think of 10 people in a room writing those words. So it wasn't until Stimson's and Seinfeld started breaking through that, I started feeling like, whoa, there's TV here that I'd wanna write. And later I found out it was because people just a few years ahead of me at Harvard,Michael Jamin (00:12:01):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:01):Were writing those shows. So I was sort of thinking like, why does this feel like it's my sensibility without realizing I was kind of swimming in the same waterMichael Jamin (00:12:09):They had? You weren't on the Lampoon then. No.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:11):You didn't have a no idea that this is something,Michael Jamin (00:12:14):How did you know you were funny then? Like, you know, IJonathan Aibel (00:12:18):Mean, I, I think I always had a sense of humor and was known for being funny slash maybe sometimes disruptive, but cleverly disruptive in school. Right. Like, I was, I'd done musical theater, so I was okay fam like, I, I wasn't like unfamiliar with entertainment.Michael Jamin (00:12:40):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:42):But that was different from thinking, you know, that's something you can make a living at. And then it was right around that time where these articles started coming out about the number of people wh…

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069 - How Do I Sell the Rights to My Book? Feb 22, 2023

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Would you like to have a book you write turned into a movie or TV show? This week, Michael Jamin explores this topic on his podcast. Check it out!Show NotesMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin (00:00):Write about what? You can make it really well written. The more personal, the more interesting it'll be. I think a lot of people think if I make it personal, I'm narrowing my audience. You know, I'm because of my, but no, you're actually making, you're making your audience specific and you're actually, that's what's so interesting to get a glimpse in someone's life like that. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this, the podcast where we're branching out. We're talking about other things not even that are only also the screenwriters need to hear in other areas. What am I talking about Phil? Phil? I don't know. Talking.Phil Hudson (00:40):We're talking about a lot of things. I think you've got a breadth of knowledge. And I think this is a topic that, although it may not be directly related to screenwriting, even though it kind of is tangentially, I think it still applies to writers, which I think, yeah, all of us are thinking about medium, just not just tv, but we're thinking of otherMichael Jamin (00:55):Things. So today we're talking about how do I sell the movie writes to my book cuz people ask me this question a lot on social media and you know, everyone writes a book wants to write a and, and most people I ask, you know, like, whoa, well, is your book a is, you know, who's publishing it? And it's so often it's self-published, which is okay, that's fine. But it's, it seems like it could be a, a very ego-driven question. They're like, how do I, they're asking, how do I sell my book as a movie so that I can become a screenwriter and I can make a lot of money? It's, that's what they're asking. How do I make a lot of money the easy way or something. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And obviously no one really cares. Like what, you know, what you want the, if you wanna sell something, you gotta give the buyer what they want, which I've said over and over again.(01:39):And so I think a better question is asking, what do studios look for when optioning the rights for a book? And that's, you know, that's a whole different question. And what they're looking that way, you can give them what they want. If you ask the right question, you could give the studio what they want instead of saying, how do I sell you my book? And so what they're looking for in my experience is they're looking for a New York Times bestseller. They're looking for a well-written book with a built-in audience. They're looking for you know, for example the movie I just, the, the show I just watched Fleischman Isn't In Trouble, right? That was based on a bestselling book. And, and, and so that's how it became a TV show. And that's how so many projects become, movies are based on books, but the books were hit books.(02:28):They were bestselling books. They had a built-in audience because the studio knows that people are gonna wanna go see the movie when it comes out. They recognize the name of the book, they're gonna wanna see it, even if it gets ruined as a movie, they're like, oh, okay, I'll go, I'll sample it. At the very least, same thing with a television show. It'll be turned into something else. Maybe, maybe it'll be better, maybe it'll be worse, but at least people will know about it. It'll be it'd be easy to market. And that's all it's about. It's about marketing, it's about money. And marketing is such a, a big battle. It's like, you know, these invest a lot of money into a TV show, into a movie. And it's, they're not looking for the best written or the, you know, they're not looking, if that were the case, it would be nonstop Shakespeare, because that's free and public.(03:13):It's in the public domain. They can make all these, I think it's, it must be in the public domain. They can make Shakespeare o over and over. There'd be the channel running nonstop. Shakespeare, the guy wrote, I don't know, something like 30 something plays. Why not just do Shakespeare all the time? It couldn't be better written. Because it's marketability. No one wants to watch Shakespeare, unfortunately. <Laugh>. So it's, it's why do they wanna watch? So, and I think a lot of people are gonna say, yeah, but okay, you're telling me now to write a best a New York Times bestseller? That's too hard. You're damn right is hard. I, oh yeah. Did you think any of it was gonna be easy? Yeah, for sure. But if you can make something that has a built-in audience, and it doesn't even have to be a bestseller. It just has, it could have a huge following on social media.(03:54):It could have, but it has to be easy to market. So here's what you need, in my opinion, the book has to be well-written and it has to find its audience. And you don't have control over the second part, really. You, but you do have control over the first part. You can make it well-written. And so the only thing you have control over, once again, is your writing is how good your writing is. But people don't wanna focus on that, even though that's the only thing they have control over. They'd rather focus on, how do I sell it? You know, how do I make money? How do I get on the best sellers list? How do you just focus on the only thing you have control over? We don't have control either. Either start. And then a lot of people, of course, feel like they don't have time.(04:33):And I'm inspired by the, the movie made. I mean, it was a big, it was, it was a little bit wild ago, but Stephanie Landro wrote this movie Made, and she wrote about her life, her life as a young single mother fleeing in abusive relationship. And she had to work as a maid, as a cleaning woman to get by. And so, you know, that's not fair that she had to do that. That's not fair. But she turned it into gold. <Laugh>, she turned her a horrible experience into gold. And then I think a lot of people were gonna say, well, yeah, but she had an interesting life to write about. My life is boring. That's not fair. Like, I, I like, okay, I don't know. It's not fair that she wasn't abused. That you weren't abused. And she was <laugh>. You know, I don't think she saw it that way. <Laugh>.(05:19):and so, yeah, I mean, but this way I say right about write about what you can make it really well written. The more personal, the more interesting it'll be. I think a lot of people think if I make it personal, I'm narrowing my audience. You know, I'm because of my, but no, you're actually making, you're making your audience specific and you're actually, that's what's so interesting to get a glimpse in someone's life like that. And then some people of course say, well, I'm too busy to write a New York Times bestseller. Well, that's, that's good. It's good that you're busy. You have something in that means you probably have an interesting life that you can write about. If you're, if you're not busy, you're boring. You're not doing anything. Have nothing to write about. So make yourself busy. Take notes, and then start writing about it.(06:01):Get, you know, open your mind to offer the opportunities and start writing about it. Put yourself as a fish outta water in whatever opportunity it is. Write about it, because that's always interesting. Yeah, that, that, that's just my advice. That's my advice. And I be, and I, and by the way, I've been involved in many projects where a studio says they'll buy the rights to the book and they'll seek writers to, Hey, do you wanna develop this into a TV show or a movie, or whatever. And sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes no. But there are people in development that we call it, and they're looking for books to option the rights to, that's their job. That's all they do. So you don't have to find them. They'll find you and they find you, if, if it has a big enough splash, if your book is made a splash, they'll come out for, they'll come seeking you. So you don't have to raise your hand. They, they're looking for you.Phil Hudson (06:55):Yeah. Immediately comes up in The Martian, right by,Michael Jamin (06:58):Yeah. The MartianPhil Hudson (06:59):Right, was a seriesMichael Jamin (07:00):That was self-published. BlogPhil Hudson (07:01):Series. Series of blog posts. He was just publishing on a regular cadence on his website mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And it generated enough attention because the storytelling was so good that it compiled it and put it out.Michael Jamin (07:11):Well, he, he compiled it as a, as a, as his own book. He, he self-published and then it became a hit, right?Phil Hudson (07:16):Yep, yep. But it was a, it had a huge following on the blog, just people were looking forward to reading this thing. And then he put it out so,Michael Jamin (07:24):Well, there's a guy who built something and so everyone's asking for permission. How do I sell? How do I, and he wasn't asking for permission, he was just doing it. He put something good out there, and then people, you know, like fill the dreams. If you build it, they will come. He puts something great out there, and people came. Now, they don't always come, but if it's great, you have a higher chance of people coming than if it's, if it's bad. I think we agree on that.Phil Hudson (07:46):Yeah, absolutely. I think he you know, I think they, like, he was in negotiations on the contract and it was like getting past, and Ridley Scott said he wanted to make the movie mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so he was like, oh. He's like, well, I don't know if I can make it cuz I'm, I'm worked. We still had his job. And he'd sold the rights to that because he's still riding in away, still riding, still working on other stuff. But he also has like a whole series of like shorts. And for, you know, I remember my friend Alvi, who is he's like a head of development at a pretty well known company, you know, production company out here in LA now. He did a short on Andy, we are and apologies if I'm pronouncing your name wrong, Andy Andy, we short story that he made free to students to make without any needing permission. And it was just stuff he'd had written prior to that.Michael Jamin (08:37):Right. And then some students made it andPhil Hudson (08:39):Oh, I was just saying like, he has a list of things, projects you can just go make without having to ask him for permission. And my buddy Avi went and did this. He went and made a short based on one of these projects that he'd already written. But the point is, he already, it wasn't the first thing he'd written. He had written other things. That was the thing that hit. But he had, you know, sharpened his ax, if you will, on other projects mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, he'd gotten so good at the craft that that's the one that hit. And he became an overnight success, but he still had probably hundreds of thousands of hours of writing behind him behind that book. Right,Michael Jamin (09:12):Right. It's so interesting though, when people you know, they, they really, they're, they're trying to break down the door to Hollywood. They're trying to, how do I get through the door? And it's like, dude, there's no door and you can open it yourself. You know, <laugh>, I know this doesn't make any sense, but you could just do whatever you want. Just make it, put it out there. And I know you don't feel like, well, I don't have that kind of money. You could shoot everything on a, on a, on a shoestring budget. You don't need to, you know, raise a ton of money, start small and then work your way up, like, like we're talking about. And so, yeah. I mean, write a book. That's a great way to do it. If you write a book and it's a bestseller, it'll, they'll turn into a movie and they'll ruin your book and you'll, that'll be fine. You'd be happy. <Laugh>.Phil Hudson (09:54):Right. Well, a couple things that came up as you were talking about this, you know, cause the question is like, how do I sell the movie rights to my book? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And what you're saying is you need to have a good product that people want to buy. And this sounds oddly similar to what you talk about when we talk about how do I sell my pilot? Right. Something so good. You can't, it's not indeniable how good it is. And people will back up trucks full of of money for you to take it from you. Yeah. Cuz they want it.Michael Jamin (10:20):But it's interesting when people say like, they, how, how do I turn my book? And then, then you say, well, has anybody read your book? Yeah. Five people bought my book. What, what? Like why would you th why would they want to turn into a movie? Why would any, because you think there's no, I mean, you understand like, there's only so much money that can go around and they're only gonna make so many projects. They're gonna choose the projects that are easiest to get high eyeballs on. They're not looking, they're not looking for your, you know, for, for a script issue. There's tons of scripts in Hollywood. Correct. They're looking to make money.Phil Hudson (10:51):Yeah. So you say that the one thing you have control over is the quality of her writing. Yeah. So let's say I write something amazing and it truly is amazing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and five people are like, this is great and I have no connections to Hollywood and I start putting it out on TikTok and it doesn't go anywhere.Michael Jamin (11:09):Right.Phil Hudson (11:10):Was that, was that worthless?Michael Jamin (11:12):Of course not. I would say, you know, it's interesting exercise and, and growth. I mean, did you enjoy the process? If you didn't enjoy it, then you shouldn't be doing any of this. If you didn't enjoy the writing part, then forget about making money. You're not, you know, what's the point? But, you know, and it's also, and not everything, of course, lends itself to being turned into a movie. It's, if it's not written in a visual way with kind of, that you can imagine with scenes, it's like there's great literature that is not would, it's not, you can't imagine how they would turn it into a movie. It would, it's not easy. So yeah, it's internal and that doesn't mean it's not beautifully written, but it's also hard to, how would you turn it into a movie?Phil Hudson (11:50):Right.Michael Jamin (11:51):And Yeah. And by the way, if there's something which is a giant hit and they go, well, they don't know how to turn into the movie, but the name is worth something, they'll hire a writer to figure it out. I mean, take like even Maurice Sandeck where the Wild Things Are, which I thought spike Jones directed it. Like I thought the, his adaptation, cuz the book is whatever, 20 pages long, there's not much the…

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068 - Ask Me Anything About Screenwriting Part 2 Feb 15, 2023

Show notes

Hollywood Screenwriter Michael Jamin sits down with Phil Hudson to discuss questions asked by fans and future screenwriters. Questions such as, "Is there plagiarism among screenwriters? How do you prepare for a general meeting with a large production company with a development exec as a screenwriter? When you're a writer's assistant, should you ask for an episode, wait until one is offered, or send the showrunner a draft?"Autogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin (00:00):In terms of stealing ideas, often in a writer's room, someone will say, oh, they, I just saw that episode two weeks ago on whatever show. And then usually the writers will go, Ugh, we won't, we'll kill the idea. So that's not plagiarizing, that's coming up with the idea independently and then killing it because you don't want people to think you plagiarized. You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, welcome back. It's Michael Jamin. You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear this. I'm here with Phil a Hudson.Phil Hudson (00:33):What up,Michael Jamin (00:34):What up? And we're doing part two of the ask me anything if Phil has some more questions. These are designed for, what kind of questions are these called?Phil Hudson (00:41):Yeah. So ton of questions came in, so we're moving into professional questions. What I kind of grouped that way, aspirationalMichael Jamin (00:49):Part one, if you missed it, we're, if you missed it, that was questions about CRA or craft. Craft.Phil Hudson (00:54):Right. Craft.Michael Jamin (00:54):Yeah. And these are about questions about professional and what else?Phil Hudson (00:59):Aspirational questions. Aspirational, like breaking in and then some general stuff. So, yeah. All right. You ready for this?Michael Jamin (01:06):I'm ready.Phil Hudson (01:07):All right. Professional.Michael Jamin (01:09):Oh, and by the way, the way these people just, if you're new to the podcast, the way people ask these questions is on my social media profile on Instagram @michaeljaminwriter, every couple months we post a blue tile that says, ask me anything. And so if you have questions that I haven't answered, that's, that's where you do it. Put it up there and we'll talk about it.Phil Hudson (01:26):Yep. Awesome. Professional question number one from Give, give Shrimp a chance, which I think is probably one of the best Instagram ta names I've ever heard. I That's good. I will give them a chance actually, Michael, you're vegan, pescatarian, vegetarian. What are you, technicallyMichael Jamin (01:43):I say I'm a vegan, but I do eat fish from every once in a while for protein PEs, but I don't eat any, somePhil Hudson (01:47):PescatarianMichael Jamin (01:48):Then don't, I guess you could say that, but, cause I don't eat any dairy.Phil Hudson (01:51):Got it. Yeah. So you're vegetarians are vegetarian, pescatarians are vegetarians who eat fish. You're not that cuz you're vegan, but you eat fish. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Cool. Good question here. I thought, I thought it was interesting. When you are a writer's assistant, can you ask for an episode or wait until one is offered or draft possible story areas and send them to the showrunner just in case asking for a friend? Well,Michael Jamin (02:17):Good question. Well, you definitely wanna put in your time. You wouldn't, if you're, if you got promoted to writer's assistant, you don't want to, in season one start asking for an episode. You gotta earn the right to be there. So you gotta be there for a full year. And then it's, this is how I feel. And then after, once you're there for, you know, full year or two or whatever, then you can approach your boss and say, Hey, I'd love to be considered for a freelance episode. I'd love to be able to pitch you an idea. And you should have all these ideas on the ready. I mean, you're, you're there. So I don't, you can do, you can come up with ideas season one, but I I I kind of, you wanna make it so that they owe you so that the writer showrunner owes you one so that you're, you're loyal and you've put in the time this is the least they can do is to repay you by giving you an episode.Phil Hudson (03:02):There's also a very clear level of trust displayed if you come back for a second season. Right?Michael Jamin (03:07):Yeah. It means they like you. Yeah,Phil Hudson (03:08):Yeah. So that, so it means that they are looking at you for those opportunities are already considering you. I do. And this is, I, I apologize. I want to say we brought this up last year, so forgive me if this is a little redundant, but I do know that in screenwriting Twitter, there was some conversation about how sometimes you get staffed as a writer's assistant and then your show gets canceled and then you move to another show and you're a writer's assistant there, and then that show gets canceled and that's a process. And so there are people who have been writer's assistants for like five seasons and they may not have ever been on a show for two seasons. What about in a situation like that where you'reMichael Jamin (03:45):Sucks people Yeah. Sucks for you. I mean, it's just, what are you gonna do? That's just the, that's just the way it goes. Yeah. That, that requires luck. What are you gonna do?Phil Hudson (03:54):Okay, here, here's a political question in regard to this subject, which is I'm a writer's assistant below me, right? There's a writer's pa and above me there's a script coordinator. And the script coordinator wants to write freelance episodes probably as well.Michael Jamin (04:12):Yeah.Phil Hudson (04:12):How do you navigate that? Cuz you've got someone else, technically, in my opinion, this is just my experience, they have seniority over you cuz they've probably been working with them longer.Michael Jamin (04:23):The same thing. I mean the, but the bottom line is it's, it's very hard. But getting a freelance episode really isn't like, it's not like it's gonna make your life, it's going to make you feel good about yourself. You're gonna, it's gonna be a, a badge of honor. But after that freelance episode, you're, you're kind of back where you started from. You're still a writer's assistant. You still have to break in as a staff writer to get full-time employment. So, and, and often it's not uncommon for a writer's assistant to get their shot and kind of blow it. It's just not, they don't do a good enough job. It's, it's hard. And so you really wanna be ready you know, the pressure is on. I I get it. So, but that freelance episode is probably not gonna make your career. It's just gonna feel good. It's gonna feel good. And that will help. And that might get you by for, that might be enough to, you know, encourage you to keep at it for a couple more years, but it's not gonna set you up for life. So,Phil Hudson (05:23):So don't celebrate too early.Michael Jamin (05:27):I mean, or don't be crushed too early if you don't get one, in other words.Phil Hudson (05:30):Yeah. Gotcha. Alright, cool. Ivan g Garcia, oh, apologize guys, this is old my eyes. I'm getting old. Michael, my eyes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Ivan Garcia 66 22. What are the basic things any screenwriter should know? I know it's a really broad, but I thought it was a really interesting conversation to have.Michael Jamin (05:51):Yeah, well, okay, first of all, do you know what a story is? And most people do not know how, what a, a story is, right? I mean, honestly,Phil Hudson (05:59):Let me interject there too. I had a class in college at a screen at a film school where I was taking a screenwriting class and the teacher asked us to define what a story is. And I knew, cuz you had given me your answer. And I sat around and looked at the room and no one, no one raised their hand. And a couple people said something and the teacher kind of brushed it off. And then I gave your answer to them and he just like had this aha moment. And he literally went and changed his slides to include your answer to this.Michael Jamin (06:26):Yeah. So the teacher that important, no,Phil Hudson (06:27):And you can get that free at michaeljamin.com/free. That's so the first lesson in Michael's course he gives away for free. Go get it. It is absolutely important.Michael Jamin (06:38):I like how, how are you gonna write a story if you can't define it? You know, and you think you know what a story is or, or it's such a weird question like in your gut, you, I must know what a story is, but honestly, if you can't define it, you might get lucky once or twice, but you're not gonna be do it on a consistent basis. You're just not. Yeah. So there's that and don't Yeah. And most people don't know. And including some screenwriting teachers don't, don't knowPhil Hudson (07:02):That <laugh>.Michael Jamin (07:02):Yeah. So,Phil Hudson (07:03):Yeah, so story stories of us know and the definition of story. And if I recall from conversations with you from years back, you told me that that's something you often, when you get lost in a story, it's because you're missing one of those elements of story and you have to go putMichael Jamin (07:17):It back in. Absolutely. I I, we were, you know, I talked about this before, but when I was running my partner running Maron first season we did a, it was the first day of shooting and we did a rewrite on a scene and we, and, and then Mark was in the middle of the scene and he's like, what am I doing here? What am I supposed to be playing here? What's going on? And he starts yelling at me because the scene wasn't working. And, and he was right. The scene was not working. And it was because in the rewrite I had dropped or we had dropped one of the elements that we needed required. And he was right. The scene did not work. And so I had to go back and rethink and we, I i, we threw another line that fixed everything.(07:53):But yeah, it's like, it's that important. It like, the actors, without it, the actors are gonna be lost. The audience is gonna be lost. You're gonna be lost, you're gonna struggle when you write, you're gonna be like, what, what am I, why am I getting bored with my own piece? Which is so common that people get bored with their own writing, which is why they lose motivation, which is why they don't you know, they feel like the writing's all over the map, which is why like they do too much rewriting cuz they don't, they still don't know what's good. All this comes, I there's really no screenwriting 1 0 2. It's all screenwriting 1 0 1.Phil Hudson (08:26):No learnMichael Jamin (08:26):1 0 1.Phil Hudson (08:27):All right. So you need to know story.Michael Jamin (08:30):Yeah.Phil Hudson (08:31):Formatting comes to mind. But that can be done software, right? Yeah.Michael Jamin (08:35):Right. The least important thing.Phil Hudson (08:37):But that, that's a place people get so bogged down. And I know this was true for me. I probably spent a year reading books on formatting. They're on the shelf back here behind me of just, here's how you format this, here's how you do this, here's how you do that. What I've found now is that I've absorbed and simulated a lot that just from reading scripts, like right up here, that's printed scripts that have just printed off you, you learn how other writers, you like how they do things. But also you can literally just Google this as you go along. If you get stuck in there. Plenty of things that kind of explain it to you. So don't get too bogged down in formatting, but you have to know formatting cuz it is one of the things people are gonna look at and they'll judge right away whether or not you're a professional.Michael Jamin (09:19):Yeah. It should be. You should, you can learn it. And just to be clear, like sometimes my partner will make it up. Like if we're writing something, a scene that kind of, the the formatting is, is is unusual with like, it, it's a phone call within a phone call or something odd. We go, well, let's just write it like this. As long as it's clear for the reader, it's fine. No one's gonna, you know, and if the ad has a problem with it, okay, fine. We'll change it when the at, like, I don't fine if the ad one or the writer system wants to change it. Okay, fine. This is how we're gonna do it though,Phil Hudson (09:45):<Laugh>. Love it. Love it. Okay. So for, is there anything else that comes to mind? Like, is there anything else that a writer and again, basic thing a screenwriter should know?Michael Jamin (09:54):Well, you know you should know that your first sample, everyone writes a script and they wanna sell it. And I always say, you're not gonna sell it. You should just write it, write it as a sample. It's a calling card to get you work. And so look at it that way, which means you're gonna be, it's a, as a writing sample, you're gonna be judged on the quality of your writing. And so don't get so hung up on, on you you know, I wanna sell it, I wanna make a million dollars. It's, that's like starting at the, the mountain at the top. You gotta start the mountain at the bottom and work your way up.Phil Hudson (10:23):Yeah. Got it. Anything else?Michael Jamin (10:26):I don't think so. Okay.Phil Hudson (10:27):Maybe I, I will say that you cover a lot of this stuff in the course, so again, if anyone's interested in that michael jam.com/courseMichael Jamin (10:34):Go get how fi how to actually sit down and do it. Yeah. That's what we cover.Phil Hudson (10:37):Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did hear someone, because structure is the other thing that comes to mind and you cover that extensively in the course as well as the writing process professionals use. I will say, I did hear someone recently say that what you teach can be found in other places, but the way you teach it and the way you label specific things is just kind of a duh. Like, oh duh. Yeah. It's like, you can't misunderstand that. And I think that's beautiful from like a just getting information across perspective and a teaching perspective. I mean, that's why some of the early, early testimonial you got from the course where that you're not only a great writer but a great teacher. I think it's because it's, it's a no-brainer way You explain these things that are very convoluted and confusing.Michael Jamin (11:20):Lot of times, writer, screenwriting teachers, I think make it harder than it needs to be is like, no, just make it simple. It'sPhil Hudson (11:27):Try to make it smart. I got like 20 screenwriting books on the shelf back there, and it wasn't until I took your course and again, we, you'd been mentoring me for a while, but it wasn't until I took your course that I was like, yeah, that's just a no duh. Like I should just be doing it that way. I should think about it and conceptualize it that way cuz it's not, you know, inciting incidents and it's not convoluted, deeper mythical structure, which I totally am not knocking. I'm just saying it's a, an easy way to think about that process. Yeah. So make it easy. I'm beating the dead horse. I apologize about that, but I do think it's absolutely worth. It's a good, check it out. Yeah. All right. I has a follow up question. Should I always feel c…

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067 - Ask Me Anything About Screenwriting Feb 08, 2023

Show notes

Occasionally, I open up my social media to questions from aspiring writers. This week we're tackling the questions you asked. Make sure you follow me @MichaelJaminWriter and look for the post asking for submissions.Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMichael Jamin (00:00):When I got hired on King of the Hill, I watched, I got hired on season five. So I watched all see all season four, or either read every episode or watched every episode of King of the Hill so that I could get the voices in my head of all the characters. They have a specific way of talking, and it helps to really, to imitate them on King of the Hill. When in when you're in the writer's room, you always imitated Hank or Bobby. You'd say it the way you, you know, you talk the way Bobby would talk and you know, dang it, you talk the way Hank would talk to get the rhythm so that you could you know, embody the character you're listening to. Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin. I'm here with Phil Hudson. Hello, Phil.Phil Hudson (00:45):Hey, everybody. Good to be back.Michael Jamin (00:47):Phil is back, and today we're doing an Ask Me Anything, and I thought it, all the questions were gonna be personal and intimate, but instead they're all screenwriting, so, all right. That'll, that'll do.Phil Hudson (00:58):They're a couple general, you're good. We'll, we'll, we'll get into what kind of underwear you wear, which is one of the questions we get out.(01:05):Yeah, no, no, no one asked that, I promise. Okay. yeah, so what I've done today, so it's a little bit different format than what we've done in the past, is I broke the questions out into kind of three or four sections. So we'll get through everything we can. If it merits enough time to do and split this into part two, we'll do that. I think one thing for everybody is listening. Just make sure you're, you're subscribing to Michael or you follow him on Instagram, because whenever we post the blue screenwriters need to hear this tile. That's so, you know, that it's opportunity to get your questions asked. And we get a lot of repeat questions from people, which is great. But it is an opportunity for you to get your questions asked directly from Michael right. On the podcast. So make sure you're following him there and look out for that tile. Let's start it off with our, with our homeboy, Dave Crossman. He's been around the og. He's actually, and I think we talked about this, he was literally the first person to buy your course.Michael Jamin (01:52):Yeah, I a screenwriting course and yeah, Ooz wasn't even on sale. We hadn't even, we were just like, we were testing tinkering or testing. We got a sale and it was crossman.Phil Hudson (02:01):Yeah. So been around. He's a super talented writer. So always good questions. I thought this was really interesting. So a little bit long. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna go through it and if I need to repeat, let me know. I've been told that half hour sitcom page links determine the intended distribution, for example, 30 pages is appropriate for broadcast, while 40 pages is appropriate for streaming. And that the intended distribution also determines the kind of content that is preferable. So, for example, broadcast requires broad humor like Brooklyn 99, while streaming preferred scripts with a more specific content and humor focus, not like heavier emotions like Barry. Is there any merit to this kind of advice or is it just complicating the process?Michael Jamin (02:43):It's probably complicating things. First of all, when you say 30 pages, he's talking about single spaced mul, single camera a single camera formatting. Yeah. And so even 30 would be long, even if it was a multi, even if it's a sorry a network TV show, you'd, you'd want to, your script should be shorter than longer. Cuz the first thing anyone who reads your script is gonna do is gonna flip to the back page and how long do I have to read this thing? So shorter is definitely better. So, you know, I'm talking about mid to upper twenties, probably, depending on the show you, you know. And then in terms of and, and yes, you could have more time, like on a network, there are more time constraints because they have to run commercials, whereas a streamer, there's, they usually give you a window that you have to hit, and so you can go a little longer and a streamer.(03:29):But to be honest, again, it's a writing sample. No one wants to read longer, even if it is intended for a streaming service, a net Netflix or whatever, it's still just a writing sample. No one, whoever, no. Who, whoever's reading it doesn't want to, would write, just get the, they wanna get it over with, or <laugh>, they just, it's a sample to see if you can write and, and they bring you in for a meeting and hopefully, you know, maybe hear a pitch on something else. So I always say shorter is better regardless of what, whether it's intending for streamers or network. And the second question is does the, I guess the content have to be a little more focused or less broad? Yeah, I suppose. I mean, you know, broadcast is for a, a, a broader audience, whereas on a streamer you can have, it's more niche and, and generally they generally look for edgier content. You know, I hate the word content, but j edgier material. And so, yeah. But does that determine the amount of the, the way you write it? You know, I don't know. I mean, I guess it's just a little more specific, you know, I wish I had a better answer for that, for Crossman over here, butPhil Hudson (04:37):I, I can cite some feedback you gave me, so mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, episode 33 last March. If anyone wants to check it out, you gimme notes on, on a pilot that I wrote, and you can go read that pilot and your notes were, this is a b plus, and this would play on cbs, but if you want to be on cable mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you need to be less specific. And I guess it was, it was less on the nose, maybe less, less tell, more show <affirmative>. So I don't know if that's nec necessarily speaks to tone, however, for example, you know, including language, including violence, including you can do a lot more with a cable type script than you can. Yeah. And I, I get the feeling that the perception is that type of writing is more demonstrative of your capability as a writer. And good considered good writing than just writing something that would show up on broadcast, would you?Michael Jamin (05:27):Well, I, I don't, I don't think broadcast is bad or anything. I just think it's, it's edgier to be on non-broadcast. And when broadcast, you gotta think of it, a lot of these shows are intended to be watched with your family. So fa the whole, everyone can, even the children, they can all sit down and enjoy it together. Right. And when you're writing for a streamer, you don't necessarily have to worry about that. And so you, you want, you can, you can make your content a little edgy content, your material a little edgier. You can make it a little grittier. And it doesn't have to be so neat. And it doesn't have to be, I mean, there's a little more freedom in the way you can write. You know, I was watching a I mean take, like, take like goodwill, Goodwill hunting, so we talk about writing directly and versus indirectly.(06:06):And so that's a really good example. Like Matt Damon's character never comes out and says what his problem is or what he doesn't you know, why he doesn't want to be in therapy or why he, why he's fine. Like, he doesn't come out and say, I don't want wanna do, I don't wanna be here. I don't, he never says it. He, he says it without saying it. So instead he goes into Robin Williams office, he kind of screws with him a little bit and he doesn't answer his questions. He evades it by being a smart ass. And so you're saying it without saying it, whereas often if you're doing a more of a broadcast show, you kind of want to say it so that, so that junior could follow along as well. <Laugh>,Phil Hudson (06:43):You know. Gotcha, gotcha. That's our like, third reference is Goodwill Hunting, by the way. It'sMichael Jamin (06:48):Oh, it's such a fantastic movie.Phil Hudson (06:50):So impactful, so impactful for me personally. Okay. anything else you want to add to that in terms of you know, thinking about writing for those other platforms? I mean, there's samples and I think one thing you do talk about in your course that I think was really helpful for people is you talk about having different samples of different styles. So right, you want to write, if let's say you're writing adult animation right here, you're gonna be really broad, like family guy, or gonna be really specific, you know, more chip, BoJack, horseman, like mm-hmm. <Affirmative> real world just happened to be set in the world with animals. So you talk about like, having different samples in your, in your, yeah. Cap, if you will,Michael Jamin (07:29):Is that, and one thing I talk about in the course really is that like, you'd break both stories the same way, whether it's for a network or for a streamer, you'd really break it. It's just a matter of how you execute it in terms of how you write it after the outline, you know, once you get to the outline stage. But on the board, they're kind of, the way I do it, they're pretty much identical.Phil Hudson (07:48):Got it. Cool. moving on. And again, these are crafts questions. 51 Lego underscore. How necessary is it to establish main characters in the first episode? Is it problematic to wait a couple before focusing on who the story is about as the audience doesn't get as connected with the characters yet?Michael Jamin (08:06):Yeah, it's a huge problem. I mean, in your pilot, you're, you're establishing the world and the character's in it. And if you want to, you can't wait until episode three. What are people watching and what happens to the old characters? No, no, you gotta come right out of the gate. These are, this is the world. These are the characters in the world that's like non-negotiable, non-negotiable.Phil Hudson (08:28):Well, I think it also speaks to, and, and I don't know if it's necessarily bad exercise, but your job is writing pilots to sell a pilot. I think it, I'm kind of learning that it's a mistake to invest eight episodes of a fake series that will never be made. And so if it's part of your practice, tell, make sure you understand how to tell a complete story. Sure. But you're not gonna go out of the gate and sell 3, 4, 5 episodes of this thing. And it could happen, I shouldn't say not, but it's most likely not gonna happen. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So the very exercise is kind of an act of futility because you should be riding other pilots. You should be giving yourself moreMichael Jamin (09:06):At that. It's funny you say that, cuz I was gonna do a whole, someone mentioned this had a question about this a couple of days ago, and I was gonna do a whole post on it because like, I think this person was an author and they were hoping, you know, they have the pilot ands all the way through the end of the series written, and it's like, you're wasting your, I feel you're wasting your time. Just write one episode, one pilot episode, and then move on to write another pilot episode. Because if it sells, don't worry. You'll get a whole writing staff and you'll be able to figure out the whole season. You don't need to do it now.Phil Hudson (09:33):Yeah. I, I think I've seen in produce shows where they do introduce a character in like episode two, and my feeling is, and maybe, you know, my feeling is that that's because the network or the studio, whoever decided to put it on air, said, we need this type of character, or we need this. They found a problem with the pilot, and this is the way to fix that by introducing some other characterMichael Jamin (09:54):Later. I mean, it happens for sure. You take like lost. I mean, the, there was, there were the characters, you know, in the first episode and then you discovered, oh, here's other dynamics work better, and these characters aren't really yet great. And then you find it. But you know, the intention is to introduce everybody. And then of course you have to build up as you run out of stories and you have to create more plot, plot lines. You have to bring more characters in. But now your characteristic should be in the, in the pilot episode.Phil Hudson (10:17):Perfect. saved underscore. Dan Chaz it's not a misspelling by the way. Is it acceptable to write morning or afternoon in the slug line? Or should the general day and night be used to indicate the time is also, is it better to use same or continuous when you, when using multiple slug lines for one long scene?Michael Jamin (10:36):All right, so these are formatting things, but you write whatever you need to write. I mean, if you write interior or what, just say, you know, exterior street morning is not the same thing as exterior street day in the morning. The extras are gonna be sipping coffee. They're gonna be holding a paper, they're gonna be walking, you know, to the, to their office places. If it's lunch, if it's day, the sun is gonna be higher in the sky, people aren't gonna be sipping coffee. They're gonna be, you know, whatever background's gonna be different. The lighting's gonna be different. So you gotta write, you gotta describe the scene, however, whatever the scene is, you know, so don't worry about Yeah. You know, the, the,Phil Hudson (11:12):TheMichael Jamin (11:12):First morning make a morning, thePhil Hudson (11:14):First Eighty's gonna solve that problem for you when he goes, when he or she goes through the script and they make decisions about what day we're in and what time it is mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and what, how, what her shooting schedule is. So you don't need to worry about that. Like, they'll, they'll take care of thatMichael Jamin (11:25):On the text, but you gotta put it in the script, whether it's morning or afternoon. What, what's up to you as the writer? What's the second part? What's the second part? Phil Hudson (11:34):Is it better to use the same, you saying we're continuous when you're, you describing one long ZMichael Jamin (11:41):It just, it's whatever, it's convenient to you, you know,Phil Hudson (11:45):Stylistically, right? This is stopping.Michael Jamin (11:46):Yeah. yeah. Interior house the same. I mean yeah, there's no passage of time, so you could might as well write the, the same if there's no passage of time.Phil Hudson (11:54):Yeah. And I would also say think it's your job as the writing to be as clear as possible. And so if it, whatever you put should make it. So there's, it shouldn't be confusing to the reader. Yeah. So make it easy. As long as we understand what we're doing, you're doing your job. Yeah. Or what we're seeing. Cool. Yeah. All right. Uhs Taylor, if you out, if you outline at all how detailed you go into outlining your planning, whatever you're working on before you start riding,…

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066 - Impressionist/Comedian Frank Caliendo Feb 01, 2023

Show notes

Impressionist and Comedian Frank Caliendo is this week's guest on the podcast. Join Michael and Frank as they discuss Frank's career and his advice for emerging comedians.Show NotesFrank Caliendo's Website - https://www.frankcaliendo.com/Frank Caliendo on Twitter - https://twitter.com/FrankCaliendoFrank Caliendo on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/frankcaliendo/Frank Caliendo on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/frankcaliendoMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TanscriptsFrank Caliendo (00:00:00):So I thought put Seinfeld on drugs and the d the, the bit was why do my fingers look like little people? Who are these people in the door and they're talking to each other? They're probably talking about me when I say it. Talking. I, oh, Jerry, oh, I somebody. Hey Jerry, you look like you've been seeing little people on your fingers. It's, you just let that camera and then the end, it was Newman and Newman's like, hello Jerry. And she, we've lost a sort of Jerry Garcia Grateful Dead commitment of stamps. You would see <laugh>. So he'd lick the stamps. You know, that was the,Michael Jamin (00:00:33):You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.(00:00:41):Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. And I got another great guest today. I'm really racking up the guests. Everyone. before we begin, make sure everyone to get on my my watch list is my free newsletter, by the way. Goes out every friday at michaeljamin.com/watchlist for tips for screenwriters, actors, and directors and all that. And now let's bring him on. Let's bring on my next, my next guest who I met actually many years ago when I was running a show. He's, the show was called Glen Martin. And we, we, this is how it works. And, and Frank, don't worry, I'll give you a minute to talk. I know you're talking about the bit here.Frank Caliendo (00:01:15):No,Michael Jamin (00:01:16):I love it. This is how, this is how it works in animation. It's actually a fun job for, for actors. So basically the casting director, we don't even audition. Can't we say this is what we need and the cast director just bring somebody in and, and and if they're terrible, you know, we just get somebody else to replace them. And so in this role we needed this is we needed someone who could do an impression. And I don't remember what the character was. There's probably some politician. It might have been Obama, it might have been George Bush, someone like that. And so she had our casting director was Linda Lamont, Montana. And she goes, I have just the guy. And she brings him in. And it was, it was Frank, Frank Callo, thank you so much for being on the, my podcast, Frank.Frank Caliendo (00:01:55):And now I'm back. How about that? Huh?Michael Jamin (00:01:57):Now you're back. And he killed it. Now Frank, is this your, Frank has got Frank, you know, the, and, and, and the Game of Thrones. There was like the the man of, what was it? The god of many faces. Is that what it was? You're, you're the man. You're the god of many voices.Frank Caliendo (00:02:11):I'll take it. Yeah, I'llMichael Jamin (00:02:12):Take, take it.Frank Caliendo (00:02:12):It it's like six and then I just kind of do variations on it.Michael Jamin (00:02:16):I don't think so. Dude, you are amazing. You are amazing at how you do that. I want to get into like how you actually do that.Frank Caliendo (00:02:23):Well, there, there, okay. So let's, let's get into, first of all, I didn't believe you that I did the show that you said I did, cuz I kind of remember Glen Martin. D d s I remember getting the sides for it. I remember getting an email about it, but I don't remember doing it cuz we talked at some point that you were doing a live a live stream. And you're like I think that's where it was. And I was like, you said, oh, Frank, you did a thing with me. Or maybe we just instant message back and forth. I'm like, you're crazy. I don't remember doing that. I just looked it up on I mdb and I did do it. You did do it. It was George Bush and I guess John Madden. Go figure. You probably Madden happy for Georges Bush. So you wrote in the John Madden thing, I'm guessing. Michael Jamin (00:03:09):It's so funny. It's so funny that you chose to forget that you were on Glen Martin. How, howFrank Caliendo (00:03:13):She, I don't remember a lot of stuff and I don't even do any drugs, but it's like, I don't, I don't remember. I remember it was like a declamation kind of thing, right?Michael Jamin (00:03:19):Yeah. Yes. Right. And it was, that was Kevin Neen. He, he the, he the guy. So, yeah. And you, you crushed it and you did. No, it wasn't John. John.Frank Caliendo (00:03:29):I crushed it so much. I've never worked with you again. That's butMichael Jamin (00:03:32):I haven't done not have animation since. No,Frank Caliendo (00:03:34):That's true, jerk.Michael Jamin (00:03:35):I did Barry for 10 minutes though. But youFrank Caliendo (00:03:38):Know, it's funny. Here's a funny thing though. This is a funny thing, is that I haven't done a lot of animation. So you think of me as animation because of the voices. And that's the thing that's always weird. And that's why one of the reasons I didn't do a ton of voice acting. One, I wasn't as good at it as some other people. But two, it was like, because once you do that, it's amazing how people think of you in like, I'm in a couple of different tunnels for pi. It, it's, you know, the pi, the holes of the pigeon. I am a, people think of me as a sports guy and an impressionist. So it's like, oh, we, that's all he can do. So they never, so I, it's so funny because recently people have been like, ah, you wouldn't do this little partner move.(00:04:19):I'm like, yeah, I would, I do, do I have to do an impression? No. Oh good. Are you gonna rewrite the part? So I do impressions? No. Perfect. Interesting. That's what I wanna do. Now I do this, the impression stuff to keep the lights on. I mean, that's what I do on TikTok and Instagram and stuff like that. It's, there's some fun with it too. But that's the amazing thing is people start to get, I think I saw you do something recently where you said, you know, beat the dead horse. Right? You're like, it can Oh yeah. Do the thing. Do the thing you're known for <laugh>. Yes. Keep doing it. Keep doing. I did it for 20 years andMichael Jamin (00:04:52):Well, I'm telling, and I'm talking about beginning people, but Yeah. But for you I can understand.Frank Caliendo (00:04:55):Absolutely. It's, it's, it's, and then you, you then you get to that point where you're like, I gotta do some other, some other stuff. And it's so funny because then people don't want you for anything else. Right. And then you go back and do some of the stuff again. But there's like two careers. And I've heard David Spade talking to those other people. Probably talked about it too. But I used to say this until I heard David Spade say it too. And then I'm like, oh, people think I was just taking it from David Spade. But it was, you spend the first career, you have two careers, the first career pigeonholing yourself, getting known, doing something, Uhhuh <affirmative>. And then the second career is being able to do something else, right? Like getting outside of that. So I had the first one. So I'm fighting in that little bit of that second one.Michael Jamin (00:05:33):Well, you know, so I, I wrote for Spade twice on just Shoot Me. And then later on Rules of engagement. So I'm just curious, what does he think is, what is his second career? What was he talking about?Frank Caliendo (00:05:41):Well, I I I just saw it in a, you know, I, I worked with him recently and didn't bring it up because I was scared of him. No. Why would you be scared of David SP's scared of David? Like, I tower over David sp five, six. No I'm trying to think. It was just something I saw him talk about on a talk show. And I, you know, it was one of those things I'm like, ah man, somebody much more famous than me is talking about this. So I don't know whatMichael Jamin (00:06:07):Thing you'd like to do. Well, I mean, you're amazing at pressure. I can see why you might wanna do something up, but what is it acting? I mean, you know,Frank Caliendo (00:06:13):It's just acting in small parts, you know, just small things because one, people think you want to only do big things and carry a show. Right. I don't really even have any interest in that. I don't even, I, I don't even wanna carry a show Uhhuh. Cause that's, I I I don't feel like my acting is at that level where I, anytime I've ever wanted to do something in Hollywood, I've always wanted to surround myself with good people. And they get confused when you try to do that. Yeah. They're like, why would you want somebody else to Well, cause I want it to be as funny as possible. I grew up, I grew up playing sports. When you have a good team, you do your part on the team. When I had Frank tv it was my show that came after Mad tv. It was shortened by the writer strike and it had some struggles and stuff like that. But it was one of those things where and it wasn't that good. And when it was finally put together, I was amazed. Cuz we had great writers and they would do it. They would pieces John Bowman that were Bowman and Matt Wickline.Michael Jamin (00:07:09):Yeah.Frank Caliendo (00:07:09):Great writers. Brenda Hay king and Lance Crowder. All these guys, like people Rachel Ramas, there were really great people Yeah. Involved in the show. But then by the time it was cut and put on tv, all the air was taken out. It was boo boo, boo boo boom. And you know, when that happens, there's no setups. It's all punchlines and you look like you're trying too hard. Yeah. That's, you know, you and I just didn't have, I'm, I'm not enough of a fighter. You need somebody who's gonna fight for you and do somebody who's gonna have the vision and fight for the vision and has been in that spot before to fight. And I just, I mean, I was doing like 15, 20 pages a day cuz I was playing all the parts until I got them to get other people on the show. So it was one of those things where I was just like, I was exhausted. I didn't even get to see edits. I didn't, I didn't like watch myself. Cause I was also too fat at the time. Yeah. I was like, I'm so fat in these things. I, it looks like South Park episodes. Michael Jamin (00:08:08):But how did that come part about, did you have a development deal at a studio orFrank Caliendo (00:08:11):Something being fat?Michael Jamin (00:08:13):No. You a lotFrank Caliendo (00:08:15):Exercise. It was, I had a d I went in, I, I went in and after I was at Med TV for a while there for five years I had the Fox stuff, the n NFL on Fox things, which was actually bigger for me than anything else. Right. being on the Sunday stuff and Super Bowls. So I went inMichael Jamin (00:08:35):And that's cause you do a killer. Madden give, give us, give us the taste of the Madden so people knowFrank Caliendo (00:08:39):What you're trying. I'm mad here for the quick pop popcorn pop. And I turned him into a character too. Like, like I was ta talking. This is, I know I go off on tangents. Just stop me. Go back. But one of the things with the Madden, you know, the, the realistic John Madden voice was this kind of voice where you, you say the things and you do the things. But I found this thing in him that was the excited little kid. Right? The <laugh>. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when he would get that, that going, it was like, I was on Letterman and he had me come on as, get me come on as John Madden didn't say it was a some, I was the lead guest over Ben Stiller, I think it was. Wow. Fake John Madden Wow. Was the lead guest. And I came in and I wasn't really the lead guest, but it was, you know, I tell people, but it was a, it was so I pulled a chicken wing out of my pocket.(00:09:29):I had them get me a chicken wig with sauce on it and everything. I gave you hungry. He was like that right now. <Laugh>, how funny, can you believe this? But it was one of those things where it just, stuff would happen and the, you create the character with it. And it becomes, the funny thing is to me, that that stuff doesn't work the same on social media like TikTok or Instagram, but it might work on some YouTube stuff. Cause there's more longer form. It's, it's more of a longer form, you know, the, the platform is Right. I just didn't like that I said more and longer right. Together. I'm, I'm weird with grammar. I'm very, some things I just, like, if you noticed, I texted you, I didn't like that I put different tenses tenses in my texts and you like, you just stopped talking to at that point.(00:10:14): But when you, I dunno what they really like and on TikTok and these you know, shortform ones platforms is exact replication. They want the, what I would call more of an impersonation, right? Like they want the the, they want you to sound exactly like the person. There's no element of caricature it really, or going what I would call Dana Carvey on it, cartooning it Right. And making it bigger. They're like, ah, that's not like it. Well that's the point. That's the comedic element, right? Right. That makes a good exaggeration after. Yeah, exaggeration after the initial what's the, what the word I'm looking for, the when you, when you recognition, when you get the recognition, laugh on the sound, and then you have to do something with it and make it bigger, right? You have to have more fun with it.Michael Jamin (00:11:09):But you did a post, I thought it was fascinating. I think it was on TikTok, excuse me. I think it might have been like how you do Robert Downey Jr. Or something. And you, you walk through the stages of how you approach the voice in, in pieces and then how you getFrank Caliendo (00:11:26):There. So let's, let's start with this. And this is something that you'll identify with completely as a writer and a creator. You have to find the cadence and the voice of the person not speaking in terms of tone, but the cadence, right? Yeah. How many Christopher Walkins have you heard, right? You've heard low, you've heard, hi, you've heard in the middle, in, in, in the old days, it was William. You knew who it was just by the pauses, right? So you could tell from those voices how you would write for that character. You put the point of view into those, into the song, right? What those of the, you know, into you put the lyrics into the melody. So with Robert, Danny Jr, I found that this is with other characters too. That counting can help you do it. It's better for the audience. It's not a full way to teach somebody how to do it, but it's entertaining while you do it. So Robert Downey Jr. Is after you find the pitch, or you don't even have to have the pitch first, but I'll go to the pitch cuz it's what I do. But it's one, two, pause, burp 5, 6, 7. So you find that it's 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7. And then you can just figure it out, you know? So that's, that…

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065 - Friend's Actress Maggie Wheeler Jan 25, 2023

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This week Friend's Actress Maggie Wheeler is on the podcast discussing how she broke in, her career, and advice for aspiring actors.Show NotesMaggie Wheeler on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggie_WheelerMaggie Wheeler on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0923909/Maggie Wheeler's Personal Website: https://maggiewheeler.net/homeMaggie Wheeler on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maggiewheeler_official/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMaggie Wheeler (00:00):Yeah. But you know, I'm so blessed because working on friends was just the most incredible creative understanding and agreement that that existed between, you know, from all angles. Yeah. And so the actors had a lot of free reign to, to, to work things out, to suggest things, to offer things. I had come from a show before that where I used to joke that they should cl in the credits. They should call me Clay Pigeon because, you know, a clay pigeon that you throw up and shoot at. Right. Uhhuh <affirmative>. Because every time I would say the slightest thing, I would say, would it be okay if overhear instead of if I said and No, no.Michael Jamin (00:37):You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.(00:45):Hey everyone, this is Michael Jamin. You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got an excellent guest today. Now hang on you. I know her as the mom from the parking lot at the school that our, both our daughters go to <laugh> because that's who we, we, that's when I first met her. And we used to hang out and talk and smoke cigarettes while the kids were getting ready to come outta class. But you know her probably so many things, but probably maybe most famously as Janice from friends. We're gonna talk all about her amazing career. Maggie Wheeler. Maggie, thank you so much for doing the show. Thank you. A round of applause, Mike. We'll put that in post <laugh> <laugh>.Maggie Wheeler (01:24):Thank you so much for inviting me to do your show.Michael Jamin (01:27):Oh, I'm so happy because you, you, I, I wanna hear about screenwriting basically from your end, from the, cuz you're a, a very successful working actor. Let me talk about some of the things you've done. I'm gonna roll through your credits to refresh you. Okay. Because you've been doing it so long. You've forgotten all these things. Remind me, I guess, right? Remind you of Archer, the Adams family. I didn't know you did the Adams family. Shameless Marin. I remember that because we worked together on that. You were Mark's ex-wife, Kung fu Panda. I'm just skipping around. There's so much I can't mention all Hot and Cleveland. Californian. I didn't know that. We'll talk about that. Curb your enthusiasm. Glenn Martin. I remember that one. Cause we worked so much. How much fun? That was fun. Cuz you can do, you're amazing with voices. Don't I'll let you talk Mary Maggie. I'm talking now. Okay. Sorry. I'm going through your credit.Maggie Wheeler (02:14):<Laugh>. I'll be quiet. Forgive me. Speak for speaking. I turn Please continue discussing StopMichael Jamin (02:20):Talk. I'm done talking about your credits here. How I met your mother. What a er. Dr. Doolittle. Three. I didn't know that. And obviously friends. You did a ton of those. Fat actress. Everyone loves Raymond. Listen to this. Credits. Csi, will and Grace. This is crazy guys. The parent Trap where you were the mom on that one. You Ellen? X-Files Dookie Hauser Seinfeld. Dreman. Which I love Dream on. I didn't know you did that. I mean, you have the to Okay, now you can say something.Maggie Wheeler (02:49):<Laugh>. Okay. I did not play the mother in the parent trap.Michael Jamin (02:51):Who were, were you Lindsay Lohan?Maggie Wheeler (02:53):I was Lindsay Lohan. Correct. <laugh>. I I'm very versatile. No, I played the camp counselor Marvin Junior. Oh. Who gets covered into chocolate and feathers. AndMichael Jamin (03:03):Tell me about what everyone wants to talk about for probably first your, like the most of the famous the Janice. Tell me like when you auditioned for that. Yeah. Did, did you know that was gonna be a recurring go recurring role?Maggie Wheeler (03:14):No, it was a one shot deal. It was one episode, single episode. And and this, yeah, it said Fast talking New Yorker and I just thought I know her. She's she's in me all the way. So I just went and I did what I thought I should do.Michael Jamin (03:28):<Laugh>. See, that's the, that's the thing. Cause I'm gonna tell you this from a perspective of the writer. Even though I didn't write, have friends, this is what I imagine what happened, you, the audition, if if they had known it was gonna be a recurring part, they would've gone out to a big a-list celebrity, right? Correct. And so you came in, you auditioned for it, you were at the table read, which is the first day of rehearsal. And it's not uncommon for the regular guests, for the regular stars to not phoning in, but to save it a little at the rehears at the first day of the table. Cuz they don't want to bring it. But I'm certain you brought it 110% and this is what happened. And I wasn't there, but I've worked on another show. So this is what happened. The writers after the table read, they go back to the room and they talk about the, the story, but they also talk about the guest cast because I wanna make sure the, do we need to fire this person? Do we need to replace this person? And I'm sure they came back. Oh, she killed it. She killed it. And then I'm certain after the tape, after the show night, they'd like, okay, we're bringing her back.Maggie Wheeler (04:26):Because amazing. I mean, you know, I wasn't behind the scenes, so I can't say how the magic happened, but I, I'd love to think that that's what happened.Michael Jamin (04:33):I'm certain that's how what, because, and, and this is another thing, it's very rare to find from my, from where I sit an actor who really can do comedy that well. And so, and you killed it so much that they brought you back. I'm sure, like I said, I'm sure they didn't think it was a reg a recurring. They, they wrote No, they go get her back. Let's think of how we can bring her back.Maggie Wheeler (04:55):19. No, I think I, yeah. Nine, however many times all throughout the rest of the show. But, you know, I remember one of the writers telling me somewhere along the line, maybe after the fact, he said, you know, we used to sit there on those late nights when we couldn't break a script and something just wasn't working. And by two in the morning we'd be sitting there kind of, you know, tearing our hair out. And somebody would just say, what about Jan? Bring me back Janice <laugh>. And that's how I kept coming back and coming back. You know it, which was amazing.Michael Jamin (05:20):What about Janice? That's perfect. That's per, yeah. And so when you, so when you audition for it, like how do you approach a script? I guess I wanna know also from the comedy point of view, how do you, like what do you, what's the first thing you do when you read the part?Maggie Wheeler (05:33):I think I hear life in a and in through my acting work and, and in my life as well. I think I hear a little bit through a musical lens. Like the music of language, the rhythm of the character. That's what I, you know what I find? That's how I find the person that I'm playing.Michael Jamin (05:47):The musicality. Cuz you're also a sa I know you're big on music. We'llMaggie Wheeler (05:50):Talk about that. Yeah, I mean, I love music and I love, I love singing. But I, you know, but, but I just feel like also because when, in my earlier days of studying acting, I was very fortunate to work with Anna DRA Smith. And Anna works in this incredible way. If, you know, she, she's, she's a genius and she, I think she won the MacArthur Genius Grant. But she's really so extraordinary and, and her process in all of her one woman shows, which are based on real interviews she kind of gave a little bit of that to me as a student of hers in a show that we did early on before she started doing her own big pieces. And so she said, she sent a bunch of us out. She said, go, I want you to go interview somebody that you know, and then tape it.(06:35):We all had our little cassette recorders. And then she said, and listen to it. And you'll see that. You ask them to tell a story. Some something that happened to them in their life. I asked my sister at the time, and they, and she said, you'll notice that there'll be a moment in the story where the pedal hits the metal. You know, just the, the, all of a sudden the gas is on and their, their cadence will change and their rhythm will change and it will accelerate. And that's the moment I want you to pick. And that's the moment I want you to do. And then from there, we did this process of, you know, writing it down word for word, finding a way for our ourselves to notate those rhythm changes, et cetera. And then really to recreate that character's kind of awakened moment. And I feel like that affected the way that I work a little bit too.Michael Jamin (07:16):But, so you, you even did that, like when you got the sides to audition for, like, let's say Janice, you do that for every role you like? Well,Maggie Wheeler (07:23):I don't know that I do it in such a laborious way. But I just think it's an instinctive way. Like, okay, so here are the lines and here is the thing. And she's saying, you know, the audition scene was, oh, I got you these socks and I don't remember the exact lines, but I got you these socks, you know, they're Winkle socks, you know, you have them, whatever she says, you can wear them however you wanna wear them. Mix and match moose and squirrel, squirrel and moose. And that just, that is just in me that moment. And I think it was that, it was just the, the hook for her. And then the, oh my God, stuff came later and the laugh came once I was on set. That was an organic thing that just developed itMichael Jamin (07:59):<Laugh>. I, you know,Maggie Wheeler (08:00):This moment with Matthew,Michael Jamin (08:02):You really made her an iconic character. You really did. You really Thank you. You know, and it's so, I, you, you know, when, when an actor does that, it's such a relief. A lot of people don't realize. It's like when we're auditioning, it's different now, obviously cuz everything's on tape. But Yeah. When an actor comes into the room and you've done this plenty of times, you audition for producers and the producers are like this. Right? Yeah. <Laugh>. And, and it's not because we're one trying to intimidate you. It's because please save us. I know that. Please just hit it outta the park so we can stop this fucking process and go home.Maggie Wheeler (08:35):I know that. I tell that to young actors. Like when I go to talk to acting students and stuff, I tell them mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, they just wanna know You've got it. Yeah. Yeah. Now the problem is, as an actor, it's like there are moments, there are days where you just, you wish you had it bottled and you wish you could just kind of toss it back and walk in the room and like, I've got it. But so many factors can interrupt that, that flow. You know, if you want it to badly, that can be an issue. <Laugh>, you know mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, somehow you have to kind of wrangle that desire and desperation, like wrap it up and leave it outside the door because people smell that and feel that mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and that feels, doesn't feel safe to the people on the other side of the desk. You know, there just has to be that kind of perfect alchemical embodiment of the character plus like your own ease that allows the mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, the, the folks on the other side of the table to go to do that thing that you just illustrated. Which is like, oh, thank you.Michael Jamin (09:30):Yeah, thank you. But how did you get into, like, even before that, cuz you have a lot of ma many credits before friends. Like, how did you get into, how did you get into act? Like how did you start? You wentMaggie Wheeler (09:42):I was a teenager in New York City and I really wanted to act badly. AndMichael Jamin (09:48):<Laugh> and your mother couldn't talk you out of it. <Laugh> my mother,Maggie Wheeler (09:50):She tried <laugh>, please let me go to professional children's school. No, <laugh>, please let me go to an acting camp. No. so, you know, I tried everything I could. I, in, in high school, I joined an afterschool musical theater troupe called the Mary Mini Players that did musical theater for kids, original musical theater by children, four children. Oh wow. And we performed in the basement of the Broadway theater or Broadway hotel. I can't remember where the hell we were. And he was crazy. And so that was sort of my first sort of feeling like I was getting somewhere. And then I used to buy the trades Uhhuh, really. And in high school I would cut school and go stand in line behind a bunch of 20 somethings and audition for something. I had no business auditioning for a, I wouldn't have been able to do it. I mean, they were industrials and, you know, silly things like that. Dance auditions things. I was, I mean, I was, I did not belong there, but I was just trying and trying and I was brave and bold and a little stupid. So, you know, that, that was good for me. And then I found a manager when I was in high school andMichael Jamin (10:52):Really in New York?Maggie Wheeler (10:53):In New York, Muriel Carl Talent Management. And and I went in there and I had to audition. I had to read copies, sing a song, do a thing. And you know, it was like, if Chris guest made a movie about, you know, children in, in, you know, performing children, this management company would be, you know, the illustration of what he would, he would create. So anyway, Muriel Carl, I had to audition for her, but I was the only person there without a parent because my mother said, no, f and a, no, I'm not going, I'm not taking you. I don't give it shit <laugh>. Whatever, whatever you, you're on your own. And so all these mothers were in there with like multiple children and matching outfits, you know, sing from your reel, read from your reel, still louder. Do it louder. So anyway, I started auditioning professionally and got rejected for every single possible thing. Yeah. And then my first professional job was in radio doing voiceover for CBS Records. And I got pulled out of a little, I got, I got booked in a crowd of kids and people just saying, Ooh, the Rubens for some musical group in the, in the seventies. Ooh, the Rubens. Ooh, the Rubens. And they said, the guy, you know, the engineer said, who's the kid with the low? With the low voice? And I was likeMichael Jamin (12:05):Oh,Maggie Wheeler (12:05):<Laugh>, I'm out.Michael Jamin (12:07):AndMaggie Wheeler (12:08):They gave me the spot and then they kept hiring me back. So I started in radio and doing extra jobs. You know, I was in, I was an extra in commercials and a couple of movies and justMichael Jamin (12:18):Seeing. But then how did you make the jump to come to California?Maggie Wheeler (12:21):So I I, when I was 20 som…

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064 - Comedian Taylor Williamson Jan 18, 2023

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Taylor's Website: https://taylorwilliamson.comTaylor's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/taylorcomedy/Taylor on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2743976/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsTaylor Williamson (00:00:00):They could have gone way harder on me. These real, these reality show contracts are insane. Like lawyers tell you, don't sign them like they have the rights to like, own your soul forever and things you make for the future and stuff. You can find the contracts online. It's really, really bad.Michael Jamin (00:00:13):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone. It's Michael Jamin and you're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This. I got a special guest today. I always say that when I have a special guest, but this time we have a world famous comedian. And now what does comedians have to do with screenwriters? Well, comedy writing, it's a form, it's a form of writing. Taylor. So we're here with Taylor, Taylor Williamson, who was, let me get you, lemme make sure I get this right. You runner up on America's Got Talent. What, what, how long, what, what year was that? BecauseTaylor Williamson (00:00:48):We, we just say recently, fairly recently. Recently in the spectrum of time, you know,Michael Jamin (00:00:52):Yesterday. And the how I met you was because, so we've been friends Taylor, we've been friends for a long time, but which means I'm probably not gonna be as nice to you as on this podcast as if we weren't friends. So you're just be far warned.Taylor Williamson (00:01:08):No,Michael Jamin (00:01:09):No,Taylor Williamson (00:01:10):<Laugh>, you're not gonna be as ni you're gonna be less nice to me cause we're friends.Michael Jamin (00:01:14):Yeah, it's the chat. It's all cordial. You're on our podcast. So that's how, I mean, it'sTaylor Williamson (00:01:18):Not cordial,Michael Jamin (00:01:20):But I wanna tell everyone how we met. So we, we met, I guess a few years back. It was, it was a w it was a little bit.Taylor Williamson (00:01:27):Sure, sure.Michael Jamin (00:01:28):And you had, you had just, I guess you had just won or, you know, runner up to America's Got Talent and comedian and you were, you were poppin. And so I don't remember exactly how, but you, our manager's teamed us up and you had an idea for a TV show based on your life. You were looking for writers. My partner and I met, we met our managers, teamed us up. We we met in kind of conversation. We liked what you had to say. And we thought, yeah, let's, let's try to develop a show and see if we can get it off the ground. And that's kind of how it works, is like, some people say like, well, I'm a comedian. Make a show about me. No, no, no. You don't understand. You were having this moment. You were, you know, you were, you were meaningful to the network because of your appearance on the, your, your success on that show. And that's how we went about it.Taylor Williamson (00:02:13):Right? No one else even wanted to meet with us. And then you guys seem so excited. I was like, are they playing a trick on us or are they terrible? <Laugh>, why? No, I'm, I'm have, I'm slightly, I mean, I'm joking about the mean part. Unlike you being serious about the mean part. Yeah, <laugh>, there was one other fancy showrunner guy who was attached, I think, while you were also attached. And I was confused. What was hap like, why we have,Michael Jamin (00:02:37):We, we couldn't have both been attached. That's not possible.Taylor Williamson (00:02:40):I don't know. There was a guy, I'm just, I'll, I mean, obviously I'll tell you, we, you already know this stuff from years ago just to remind you. But like, there was another like, executive producer guy who was attached and then you guys, when we met with you guys as well, and everyone was gonna be a part of it in different ways. And I guess you would've been theMichael Jamin (00:02:59):Sure.Taylor Williamson (00:03:00):I guess. But then I thought he was, I didn't, I don't know what's going on. I, you know, I'm the, I'm the dumb comedian who's just all these, these, these Jewish people are telling me what to do. And I'm Jewish, by the way. I don't wanna sound like the new Kanye West. I was making a, I was playing along with Kanye. Wait, I playing against You're Jewish. Can you say me Hebrew Happy Hanukkah <laugh>,Michael Jamin (00:03:20):Hebrew <laugh>. Dude, I wanna know, I wanna know. So Taylor's a, you know, com touring comedian. You work all the time. You tore the country. But I wanna know, I guess I wanna know how you broke into the business. Like how did you go from open mics to getting paid to do this?Taylor Williamson (00:03:38):We'll, we'll cut out the last 12 minutes. That I said so far, right?Michael Jamin (00:03:42):If you No, I, that's we're gonna lead with that. <Laugh>Taylor Williamson (00:03:45):<Laugh>. I feel like you have like real writers, those people that say, let me just say that. Well, are we just gonna talk more about that? I think that's interesting. WeMichael Jamin (00:03:52):Could talk about anything you wanna talk about.Taylor Williamson (00:03:54):I don't mean I, like, I made jokey answers to whatever, but yeah, we, I, it was, I think it's important to share this stuff. And I, I came up, I had to show idea that I liked and then my, my friend is I'm taking over the show.Michael Jamin (00:04:08):No, no. Okay. I'll get back to what we have. We got some time to fill here, so we'll get back to my questions.Taylor Williamson (00:04:13):Well, so no, I'm taking over, I'm answering your question, buddy. Yeah,Michael Jamin (00:04:16):I know, but I was steering the conversation away from your answer.Taylor Williamson (00:04:19):So then Jillian Bell, who's a great comedian, actress, writer person and mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, she was interested in the show and and then she wanted to produce the show. That's right. Signed. It's a fun facts show business. I used to be with the management company that, that she was with, and I was no longer with them. And I brought this idea to them and my reps were not enthusiastic about it. Yeah. But then, so I, and I stopped working with them, but then a year later, Jillian Bell was interested in the idea, same show, then me go into their office with Jillian and then they're like, Jillian, this is a great idea. <Laugh>, I'm like, the show. ThisMichael Jamin (00:04:55):Is funny. She, I totally forgot that she was involved in it, but that's an, but that's right. Cuz she brought another piece to the puzzle. It was like, yeah. And you did, which was like, it's all about how many pieces of this puzzle can you, like, how much more can you bring to the table? And her involvement, the fact that you had this other, you know, she was a, she's an actress, actor, producer she's trying to get into the producing field and that was another piece of the puzzle, which made it more meaningful. So that's how Yeah. You weren't just like some random dude, you know, you kind of put these pieces together.Taylor Williamson (00:05:24):Yeah. And then obvi, I mean, she helped tremendously and I wouldn't have gotten to you and Siever if if it was not for her. And then we met with you guys and it was such a joy and we could talk about it as much as you want. But but anyways, but how did I start comedy? I, I was 17. I was like, I got into STEM comedy in high school. I never liked comedy as a kid. I remember being at the airport and the, as a child and some guy was like, I'm a comedian. Ugh. And he is like so obnoxious. And I've always hated that kind of comedy. Like, people are like, look at me, I'm a comedian. I got some jokes. You know? So I think that that scarred me for life. So I was like, I don't like, and my brother liked comedy stand up comedy, so I said, I don't like stand up comedy cause like dumb sibling ri sibling rivalry stuff. And it makes no, I'm not proud of anything. So I'm saying I still stand by hating those obnoxious comedians who like, tell it when the com Hey, I'm a comedian, nice to meet you. Like, you know. Yeah. I don't need that. And then then,Michael Jamin (00:06:19):But that's funny cause I always say like, people who have to advertise that they're funny, <laugh> not be funny. You know what I'm saying? They have to put it on their business card, you know? Funny guy.Taylor Williamson (00:06:28):Yeah.Michael Jamin (00:06:29):But, okay,Taylor Williamson (00:06:30):Go ahead. And for the record, I've been saying I'm not funny. This entire, I've this entire convers we believe, I believe you <laugh>. Fair. Good. I'm glad that's clear. Yeah. And then in high school I got into standup a lot as a being a fan of it. And then and then I'm from San Diego and rest in Peace. Her name is Sandy Seashore, Mitzi's daughter from the comedy store. Polly's sister had a comedy workshop in San Diego. And I'm, I'm 17. And I'm like, oh, that seems like a way to start, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I don't necessarily encourage comedy classes.Michael Jamin (00:07:08):Why not?Taylor Williamson (00:07:10):At first standup comedy, improv sketch. Yeah, standup fine. It helps you get your feet wet and you learn structure and stuff. But generally you're learn. I learned what not to do really. I don't, you kinda, there'sMichael Jamin (00:07:24):No structure though. What do they teach you there? You get comfortable learn on the funny, on the funny word.Taylor Williamson (00:07:29):Yeah. It's just like helping dissect. I don't know. Everyone has, there's no curriculum for comedy classes, but I learned a lot of things, what not to do. And I watched things being rewarded. Everyone should be like, this is not what I want to do. This is not right. And you're in the class with a bunch of crazy people too, honestly. You know? AndMichael Jamin (00:07:47):What kind of things do you learn that you, you're not supposed toTaylor Williamson (00:07:50):Do? I, as I was saying that I was like, that's gonna be a, a follow up question. I can't think of one, but like, rule of threes all this, I don't, I don't like the, I don't like these. It's just like, yes, those are things, right? But then also it doesn't have to be as such, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> I'm trying to think of like better examples of that. But here's the positive that I got out of it is if you're fat, talk about it. If you're skinny, talk about it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and the, this is what I got out of the class that's invaluable, is that everything I got picked on in school was things that were like my superpower as a comedian or a writer. So like, all the bullies were like, Hey, you talk weird or you walk weird or you're a dork. And I, and I, I was able to spin all of those into, I go on stage, hey, so I'm weird and I, I talk weird and I walk and then people are like, we like you. And it's just kind of a beautiful thing to do comedy writing. It'sMichael Jamin (00:08:45):So funny. Yeah. This is what I say all the time to people, which is talk to talk about your vulnerabilities. That's what you want to talk about. And, you know, in screenwriting. But it's the same thing with standup. You know,Taylor Williamson (00:08:55):If that's, yeah. And I guess it's a standup that I, I, and I, I don't have better answers than this at the, off the top of my head cuz it was so long ago. But I remember like, it's like you learn to go like, oh, I'm half Jewish and I'm half Italians, so that means I like pizza that's on sale. You know? And then they go, right, great. Like, no thanks, come on. So it teaches you that kind of, but it, it does teach you what a joke is and it teaches you to get comfortable on stage and it teaches you what's out there. But I don't know, it can make a hacky hack comedian, you know?Michael Jamin (00:09:32):And then what came next? So it open mics after that you put together a five minute act orTaylor Williamson (00:09:36):Something. So I was k very tenacious and ridiculous. And I knew I was very, I did very, I was very good for my age. And this is also the time when not everyone's on Instagram and TikTok and all this stuff. So like, I was maybe one of the three 17 year old standup comedians out there, Uhhuh <affirmative>, like, you know what I mean? So I was probably the best music quotation of fingers. 17 year old com, I don't know. So I got all, I got attention and I was really good, especially in front of that supportive body. It's represented by their friends and stuff, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I didn't invite anybody, but like in that safe space, I, I don't know, I was very good at my age. I don't know, this probably sounds douchy, but, so I moved to LA to for college, but really for comedy. And it was very humbling doing an open mic that was not that safe space. And then the crowd wasn't so supportive. I'm like, what, what's wrong with you people? Oh wait, that's not real. This is real. You know? Yeah. But I got really good video footage, videotape, footage b you know, BCRs, those things. And who,Michael Jamin (00:10:42):Who brought the camera?Taylor Williamson (00:10:43):So the comedy workshop, you pay like four, 4 billion and then you get to do the eight weeks, then you get a tape at the end. So I got a killer tape. So I sent that to the, the producers of the Tonight Show, <laugh>. I sent it to the last comic standing producers. I sent it to Eddie Brill, who booked David Letterman. So like, I was 18, I was, gosh, was it before I was 18. And didMichael Jamin (00:11:08):They they write back? Yeah. Did they reach out? What'dTaylor Williamson (00:11:10):They say? Yeah. Every time.Michael Jamin (00:11:12):<Laugh>, what'd theyTaylor Williamson (00:11:12):Say? These guys, every time I remember I never got, I don't believe I ever got them on the phone. Eddie Bri Letterman guy called me. I remember, I remember being in college 18 in the hallway. I had a voicemail from the booker for Letterman. Nowadays I would've recorded it and saved it. You know, this is like flip from time. So, and he was like, thanks for the tape. Funny jokes. Cause I remember reading somewhere that he responds to every bird, everyone who submits. And I remember he said, yeah, you can't do the AIDS joke on the show, <laugh> the aids. It was like, you g it wasn't a AIDS joke, but it was like, the joke was, I was trying to be Bitch Hedberg at the time, you know, like brilliant one-liner guy. I'll show me one of those guys. So like, I remember being like, all these people are walking for aids, so I'm against aids.(00:11:59):I don't know. You know what I mean? Right. Some dumb joke like that. And he's like, you can't say that. You can't say that, but keep working at it. Whatever. And the Bob Reedit Tonight Show was so sweet and he seemed accessible to me cuz he was a judge on last comic standing, the first few, few seasons. Uhhuh <affirmative>. So he would send me the tape back, say, thanks for the tape, keep wor…

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063 - Ideas Are Worthless Jan 11, 2023

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062 - How Do I Know When My Script Is Done? Jan 04, 2023

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How do I know when my script is done? Is there a definitive moment when you become aware that it is finished? In this episode of Screenwriters Need To Hear This, Phil Hudson & Michael Jamin discuss how professional writers can know they've finished their screenplay or TV script.