Unchained

Latest Episodes:

Bits + Bips: A Perp Venue Asked Her to Trade Her Own Benchmark. She Said No Jun 30, 2026

Show notes

Carmen Li thought it was a joke when a perpetual futures marketplace asked her to become the market maker for her own index. It wasn't.

In this segment from Bits + Bips: The Interview, she walks Steven Ehrlich through the requests that alarmed her, a daughter analogy for why trading your own benchmark destroys neutrality, the manipulation risks she sees in crypto's index practices, and why she insists any perp venue on her index be regulated and guardrailed.

Host:

Steven Ehrlich - Host of Bits + Bips and Head of Research at Sharplink

Guest:

Carmen Li - CEO of Silicon Data and Compute Exchange

This clip is from a longer conversation on GPUs, compute markets, and crypto. Full episode here: https://www.youtube.com/live/rYDiPneJv20?si=fjS7bSd-bJ6c6tYb

We go live every Monday - subscribe to catch it live.

Sponsors

Cape: Your biggest crypto vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your phone number. Cape is America's privacy-first mobile carrier that rotates your SIM identity daily and blocks SIM swaps before they happen. Get 33% off your first six months at https://cape.co/unchained (use code: UNCHAINED).

Chapters

🤝 00:00 The perp venues circling her index, and the request that immediately felt off

🚩 01:27 The ask she thought had to be a joke: become the market maker of your own index

👧 02:47 Carmen's daughter analogy that nails why trading your own index breaks neutrality

🛡️ 04:47 The guardrails that keep it honest: external audits and hard internal trading rules

🔀 05:36 Why you can't just swap one index for another and keep on trading

⚖️ 06:26 Her one demand for any perp venue building on her index: regulated and ring fenced

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why CME Sued the CFTC Over the Kalshi Bitcoin Perp Approval Jun 27, 2026

Show notes

A regulated exchange suing its own regulator almost never happens. The hosts trace why CME did it, and why the CFTC may have better odds than crypto Twitter thinks.

Thanks to our sponsor!

👉 Fidelity: Fidelity has been building in crypto and DeFi since 2014 — now they're hiring. Explore career opportunities at one of the most forward-thinking names in finance here: ⁠https://crypto.fidelitycareers.com⁠.
👉 Cape: Your biggest crypto vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your phone number. Cape is America's privacy-first mobile carrier that rotates your SIM identity daily and blocks SIM swaps before they happen. Get 33% off your first six months at⁠ https://cape.co/unchained⁠ (use code: UNCHAINED).

CME has sued the CFTC, its own primary regulator, a rare move for a regulated exchange, landing the day after longtime CEO Terry Duffy announced he would step down. The trigger: the CFTC's approval of a narrowly tailored Kalshi Bitcoin perpetual, the first true perp cleared onshore.

Katherine Kirkpatrick Bos, Jessi Brooks, and Vy Le untangle CME's two arguments, that perps are swaps rather than futures, and that the agency acted arbitrarily by skipping notice and comment and reversing its own prior position in a single day. They weigh whether the case can win, and why the process may matter more than the outcome.

From there, the panel digs into Cboe's prediction-style S&P 500 contracts headed to Schwab's customers and the binary-option-versus-swap line. With a recent poll finding 43% of Americans believe AI could "literally end the human race," Jessi argues crypto can't afford to dismiss the people who become its juries, judges, and voters.

The conversation covers the CME lawsuit, prediction markets arriving on Wall Street, a viral $1 to $5 million crypto legal job, and the growing public backlash against AI.

Hosts:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Katherine Kirkpatrick Bos⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at StarkWare. Previously held senior legal roles across DeFi and centralized exchanges.
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jessi Brooks⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, General Counsel at Ribbit Capital⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Vy Le⁠ - Co-host of DEX in the City and General Counsel of Veda

Timestamps 🏛️ 01:59 Why a regulated exchange suing its own regulator almost never happens

⚖️ 04:38 CME's two arguments, and why "future delivery" could reach the Supreme Court

🧠 12:51 Why process and durability may matter more than the outcome

🚪 19:54 How the Kalshi order opened the floodgates for self-certified perps

📊 23:48 Cboe's S&P 500 prediction contracts head to Schwab, and the binary-option-versus-swap line

🛡️ 33:27 Cape: Stop SIM swaps and get 33% off your first six months with code unchained at https://cape.co/unchained

💙 34:22 Fidelity: Explore crypto careers that could change your future at https://crypto.fidelitycareers.com

💼 35:05 The Pump.fun chief legal officer job and its $1 to $5 million salary

🤖 37:02 Why the AI vibe check has turned bleak and why crypto should care

🐶 47:10 This week's good news: the Marlins hunt for the hot dog meme

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How the Strategy Empire Breaks, and Whether Saylor Can Stop It Jun 26, 2026

Show notes

Vinny Lingham warned 18 months ago that Michael Saylor would harm Bitcoin more than FTX. Now he maps how the Strategy empire breaks and the one move that could slow the bleed.

========================================================

Thank you to our sponsor!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Fidelity⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: Fidelity has been building in crypto and DeFi since 2014 — now they're hiring. Explore career opportunities at one of the most forward-thinking names in finance here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠crypto.fidelitycareers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Cape⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: Your biggest crypto vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your phone number. Cape is America's privacy-first mobile carrier that rotates your SIM identity daily and blocks SIM swaps before they happen. Get 33% off your first six months at cape.co/unchained (use code: UNCHAINED).

========================================================

Strategy's stock has fallen over 80% from its November 2024 high, its STRC preferred trades well below par, and a fresh $335 million raise has done nothing to restore confidence.

Vinny Lingham, co-founder of Praxos Capital, tweeted in October 2024 that Michael Saylor would do more damage to Bitcoin than FTX. On Unchained, he argues the collapse was always predictable, and that this is not a Ponzi but what he calls a 'Saylor scheme.'

Lingham maps how the empire breaks once MSTR trades at a discount to mNAV, why the 32-Bitcoin sale and the $1.5 billion buyback of 2029 converts blew Saylor's runway, and why $6.7 billion in convertible notes raises default risk by 2028. He also weighs a Soros-style attack theory and the switch to bimonthly dividends.

His fix is the one thing Saylor won't do: stop buying, stop diluting, wait it out. The question is who removes the biggest buyer of Bitcoin, him or the market.

Host:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained

Guests:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Vinny Lingham - Co-founder of Praxos Capital

Timestamps

📉 01:11 Strategy in free fall: why Vinny says the collapse was always coming

🪤 06:24 Why buying back 2029 debt blew Saylor's runway

₿ 07:36 The '32 years of dividends' claim and what a deeper bear market does to it

🏚️ 10:23 How the MSTR empire actually breaks: the discount-to-mNAV trap

🎯 13:35 Why is Strategy faltering? Is it leverage or a Soros-style attack on MSTR?

💙 16:38 Cape: Get 33% off your first six months with code unchained at https://cape.co/unchained

💚 17:32 Fidelity: Explore crypto careers that could change your future at https://crypto.fidelitycareers.com

📆 18:15 Why switching to bimonthly dividends makes the problem worse

⏳ 19:29 The $6.7B convertible-note overhang and the 2028 default risk

🛟 22:07 Can MSTR be saved, and the most likely outcome from here

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ex-Ethereum Foundation Researchers Launched Their Own Lab: Uneasy Money Jun 26, 2026

Show notes

An anti-MEV activist spent weeks building 66 fake contracts to trap the sandwich bot jaredfromsubway.eth. Then jared's operators did the one thing nobody expected.

========================================================

Thank you to our sponsors!

Cape: Your biggest crypto vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your phone number. Cape is America's privacy-first mobile carrier that rotates your SIM identity daily and blocks SIM swaps before they happen. Get 33% off your first six months at https://cape.co/unchained (use code: UNCHAINED).

========================================================

A new R&D lab called Ethlabs has split from the Ethereum Foundation, backed by Bitmine and Joe Lubin. Its first stated goal is solving a '15 minute finality problem' that none of the hosts can quite explain the point of.

Kain Warwick, Taylor Monahan, and Luca Netz ask whether a breakaway staffed largely by ex-EF people can really escape the EF's habits, or just rebuild a smaller version of them.

Then the conversation turns to fomo's $75M raise from non-crypto VCs, and why a trading app that never calls itself a wallet may have cracked the onboarding flow the rest of crypto keeps getting wrong.

The hosts also trace a CryptoPunks judge ordering a self-represented plaintiff to handwrite filings to stop the AI slop, the anti-MEV activist who trapped sandwich bot jaredfromsubway.eth with 66 fake contracts, and the WSJ's claim that Polymarket paid creators to stage fake winning bets.

Hosts:

Timestamps

🧪 02:06 Ethlabs breaks from the EF: what the new R&D lab is actually for

🤔 03:57 Why the 'fifteen minute finality' framing baffles the hosts

📈 15:40 fomo's $75M raise and why a no-token trading app pulled it off

🧱 21:45 The wallet lesson: why building for trading beats building for custody

💙 30:48 Cape: Get 33% off your first six months at https://cape.co/unchained

⚖️ 31:44 The CryptoPunks lawsuit where a judge ordered AI-slop filings handwritten

🥪 41:04 What a sandwich bot is and why jaredfromsubway.eth became infamous

🪤 45:34 How an anti-MEV activist trapped Jared with 66 fake token contracts

🏛️ 50:46 Why Jared running to the courts under the CFAA makes no sense

😤 56:36 Kain on the exploiter who cries foul when someone finally steals from him

📺 59:20 The WSJ claim that Polymarket paid creators to stage fake winning bets

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Chopping Block: Is Strategy the Luna for Suits?, ETH Labs Shakeup & CME vs Perps Jun 25, 2026

Show notes

The crew debates whether Saylor's STRC preferred shares are "Luna for suits," unpacks the ETH Labs spin-out and Ethereum Foundation layoffs, breaks down the CME's lawsuit against the CFTC to kill domestic perps, and weighs whether Meta's leaked prediction market Arena is a real threat to Polymarket.

Welcome to The Chopping Block – where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, Tarun Chitra, and Robert Leshner chop it up about the latest in crypto. This week, Saylor's STRC preferred shares, which have broken below their $100 target. Laura argues it's a confidence crisis, Tarun calls it "Luna for suits," and Haseeb pushes back — there's no death spiral, Saylor can just defer dividends and "burn the boat." Then the Ethereum Foundation shakeup: ETH Labs spinning out with seven senior EF members while the EF lays off 20% of its headcount.

The back half covers the CME suing the CFTC to block domestic perps — which Haseeb frames as "suing for the right to not compete" — and Meta's leaked prediction market Arena, where Tom reveals this is Meta's third or fourth attempt at prediction markets. Let's get into it.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pods, Fountain, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.

Show highlights

🔹 Saylor's STRC preferred shares break below $100 target — Tarun calls it "Luna for suits"

🔹 Haseeb pushes back: no death spiral, no margin calls — Saylor can defer dividends and "burn the boat"

🔹 Tom reveals Strategy execs are cold-calling crypto funds to sell them STRC — "very Luna"

🔹 ETH Labs spins out with 7 senior EF members as the Foundation lays off ~20% of headcount

🔹 CME sues CFTC to block domestic perps — Haseeb: "suing for the right to not compete"

🔹 Haseeb proposes 100-year futures as a workaround to route around the lawsuit

🔹 Meta leaks prediction market Arena — Tom reveals this is Meta's third or fourth attempt at prediction markets

🔹 Tarun argues prediction markets will be viewed as information social networks within five years

Hosts

⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly

⭐️Tom Schmidt, General Partner at Dragonfly

⭐️Tarun Chitra, Managing Partner at Robot Ventures

Guest

⭐️Laura Shin, Journalist, Author of ‘The Cryptopians,’ Founder and CEO of Unchained

Timestamps

00:00 Intro

01:10 STRC & Strategy: Saylor "Luna for suits"

12:33 No death spiral — burn the boat

17:06 Strategy execs cold-calling crypto funds

20:06 Ethereum Foundation shakeup & ETH Labs spin-out

27:33 ETH Labs is the ghost of Tomasz

35:20 CME sues CFTC to block domestic perps

44:44 100-year futures as a workaround

50:29 Meta's prediction market "Arena"

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bits + Bips: Are Perpetuals Swaps or Futures? The CME Picks a Fight Jun 24, 2026

Show notes

Three years ago, Chris Perkins sat across from Terry Duffy in Congress and made the case for perpetuals. Duffy pushed back — hard. Now Duffy's CME is suing the very regulator that finally allowed them.

The CME argues Bitcoin perpetual futures are really swaps and should carry far more collateral. Chris traces the Dodd-Frank history that created the swap-versus-future divide, and Austin Campbell lays out why picking this fight in a post-Chevron court could backfire on the incumbent. Is a perpetual a swap or a future, and who gets to decide?

Hosts:

Austin Campbell - Host of Bits + Bips, Founder of Zero Knowledge Group, and Adjunct Professor at NYU Stern
Ram Ahluwalia - Co-host of Bits + Bips and CEO of Lumida
Chris Perkins - Co-host of Bits + Bips and Head of Franklin Crypto

This clip is from a longer conversation on tokenization, the AI trade, and the CME's lawsuit against the CFTC. Full episode here: https://youtube.com/live/oSiOeWq_pKE

We go live every Monday at 4:30pm ET - subscribe to catch it live.

Sponsor

Cape: Your biggest crypto vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your phone number. Cape is America's privacy-first mobile carrier that rotates your SIM identity daily and blocks SIM swaps before they happen. Get 33% off your first six months at https://cape.co/unchained (use code: UNCHAINED).

Chapters

⚖️ 00:00 The incumbent sues its own regulator: what the CME is actually claiming

📜 01:22 Chris on Terry Duffy, and the testimony fight that set this up

🏛️ 02:12 The Dodd-Frank origin story, traced back to the 2009 G20

⏱️ 03:12 Why a 'swap' costs five days of margin and a future costs two

🌊 04:42 Constrain leverage onshore and watch it flee offshore

⚠️ 05:15 Austin: why the CME should be careful what it wishes for

🧨 06:26 The Dodd-Frank footnote where Congress admits it punted

🤝 08:20 ICE, OKX, and Kraken: where the dance partners line up

🎯 09:12 What the market really needs out of all this

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How Digital Credit Assets like STRC and SATA Differ from Bitcoin or DAT Stocks Jun 23, 2026

Show notes

Was Michael Saylor wrong to sell Bitcoin? Matt Cole breaks from his fellow critics on Strategy, S&P's junk rating on MSTR, and whether the model is breaking.

========================================================

Thank you to our sponsor!

⁠⁠⁠⁠Fidelity⁠⁠⁠⁠: Fidelity has been building in crypto and DeFi since 2014 — now they're hiring. Explore career opportunities at one of the most forward-thinking names in finance here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠crypto.fidelitycareers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠.
⁠⁠⁠⁠Cape⁠⁠⁠⁠: Your biggest crypto vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your phone number. Cape is America's privacy-first mobile carrier that rotates your SIM identity daily and blocks SIM swaps before they happen. Get 33% off your first six months at cape.co/unchained (use code: UNCHAINED).

========================================================

Strive's Matt Cole had just lived through what he called the most difficult day in the history of digital credit when he sat down to defend it. STRC had touched $82.50, SATA had slipped into the low nineties, and the Bitcoin treasury trade was suddenly the most argued-over corner of crypto.

Cole came from a pension background and built Strive into one of the largest Bitcoin treasury companies around a single conviction: that structured credit can solve an income problem fiat can't. The critics, he argues, can't even agree with each other on what is actually wrong.

Was last week a leverage liquidation or a crack in the model? Did Michael Saylor quietly change his story? And is wrapping Bitcoin in preferred stock a betrayal of its ethos or the bridge most people actually need? Laura Shin pressed on all of it.

Host:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained

Guests:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Matt Cole - Chairman and CEO of Strive

Timestamps

🎙️ 02:07 What Strive is, and why Matt calls SATA the company's main product

🏦 10:16 Could Strive cut SATA's 13% yield without breaking par?

👥 15:45 Who is actually buying SATA, and the one buyer Matt says he's never met

📣 25:15 Fidelity: Explore crypto careers and make the decision that could change your future at https://crypto.fidelitycareers.com

🔒 25:58 Cape: Use code unchained for 33% off at https://cape.co/unchained

💧 27:28 What Matt thinks really drove last week's STRC drop, and why SATA didn't follow

🏛️ 31:28 Why Matt won't fault Saylor for selling, and the S&P rating he calls a joke

⚖️ 50:53 Is buying SATA un-Bitcoin? Matt answers the Mallers vs Saylor critique

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why Kalshi's John Wang Says Perps Are 'the Most Pure Trading Instrument' Jun 19, 2026

Show notes

Kalshi just brought crypto perps to the US, targeting a $90 trillion offshore market. Its Head of Crypto, John Wang, explains the bet, the risks, and who Kalshi is actually competing with.

========================================================

Thank you to our sponsor!

⁠⁠⁠Fidelity⁠⁠⁠: Fidelity has been building in crypto and DeFi since 2014 — now they're hiring. Explore career opportunities at one of the most forward-thinking names in finance here: ⁠⁠⁠crypto.fidelitycareers.com⁠⁠⁠.
⁠⁠⁠Cape⁠⁠⁠: Your biggest crypto vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your phone number. Cape is America's privacy-first mobile carrier that rotates your SIM identity daily and blocks SIM swaps before they happen. Get 33% off your first six months at cape.co/unchained (use code: UNCHAINED).

========================================================

The $90 trillion offshore market for crypto perpetual futures just got its first US-regulated entrant. Kalshi — the prediction market exchange that raised $1 billion at a $22 billion valuation — launched the first CFTC-approved crypto perps, becoming the only domestic exchange approved on launch day.

John Wang, Kalshi's Head of Crypto, joins Laura Shin to map how perpetual futures work, why Kalshi's guarantee fund and segregated accounts differ from what offshore venues provide, and how the exchange plans to compete with Hyperliquid, Coinbase, and Kraken.

Wang pushes back on CME Group CEO Terry Duffy's claim that crypto perps are "a disaster waiting to happen," noting CME's own futures carry higher leverage than Kalshi's platform. He covers the ARCA and Galaxy block trades on Kalshi's prediction markets, insider trading protections built around athlete and congressional staff lists, and the regulatory filings separating Kalshi from perps on equities. Wang estimates only 0.2% of the US has adopted perpetual futures — the real growth has barely started.

Host:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laura Shin⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, Host / Unchained

Guests:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠John Wang - Head of Crypto at Kalshi

Timestamps

🎯 02:51 Why Kalshi chose crypto perps as its first product outside prediction markets

🔧 05:15 What a perpetual future is and why traders prefer it over options and standard futures

🤓 11:14 The metric that reveals real demand: Kalshi's ratio of trading volume to open interest

🛡️ 14:19 How Kalshi plans to onboard Americans, and how its risk model differs from Hyperliquid's auto-deleveraging

🏛️ 21:05 Wang on Terry Duffy's claim that crypto perps are 'a disaster waiting to happen'

🎓 23:17 Fidelity: Explore crypto careers that could change your future at https://crypto.fidelitycareers.com

📱 24:00 Cape: Get 33% off your first six months at https://cape.co/unchained

🤝 25:32 How institutions are pitching its perps to institutions — and which ones have so far done trades

🌐 33:09 How Kalshi plans to compete with Hyperliquid, Coinbase, Kraken, and Robinhood

🔍 41:14 How Kalshi attempts to prevent insider trading — and what John thinks about its rivalry with Polymarket

💰 46:16 Kalshi's roadmap after its $1 billion raise at a $22 billion valuation

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why Fable's Shutdown Is a Warning for Every AI Lab: Uneasy Money Jun 19, 2026

Show notes

The government export-controlled Anthropic's best model. Kain, Luca, and Taylor debate whether Dario talked his way into it and what the shutdown means for every AI lab.

========================================================

Thank you to our sponsors!

⁠⁠Multichain Advisors⁠⁠: Get help navigating TGEs, go‑to‑market, BD and partnerships, capital markets advisory, PR, media placements, KOL activations and more at https://multichainadv.com.

========================================================

A reported jailbreak of Anthropic's most powerful model, Fable, triggered US government export controls, and the Uneasy Money hosts argue Dario Amodei's response on the call with the administration made it inevitable. Kain, Taylor, and Luca dig into what Dario got wrong, why a company about to go public had no one in Washington who could speak the government's language, and what it means that the shutdown drew no public backlash.

Porter Stowell, CEO of W3.io and a Coinbase alum, joins for the first half with his read on the exchange's big announcement day: agentic payments on Base, tokenized stocks, and a ground-up trading rebuild. Midway through, Luca drops something unannounced: Igloo has built a financial instrument to list crypto tokens directly on the NYSE as securities, with protocol revenue flowing back to holders.

The episode closes on Strategy, and why Kain thinks selling 32 Bitcoin, then buying back 1,587 two weeks later, exposes the structural risk of a belief-based asset with one dominant buyer.

Hosts:

Guest:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Porter Stowell - CEO of W3.io

Timestamps 🏦 03:16 Porter Stowell on why Coinbase's announcement day signals a real shift in how the exchange competes

💬 06:26 Luca on why Coinbase's core trading product still lags: charts that won't load and page refreshes to buy Bitcoin

🤖 17:40 Porter on why agentic payments on Base is the real sleeper from Coinbase's announcement day

📋 25:10 What "real" means in Coinbase's tokenized stocks launch and whether the custody approach actually differentiates it

💡 34:15 Luca reveals Igloo's instrument to list crypto tokens directly on the NYSE as securities

📣 41:12 Multichain Advisors: Navigate TGEs, go-to-market, and capital markets advisory at https://multichainadv.com

🧠 41:54 What Fable was, why it scared security researchers, and how a reported jailbreak report ended it

⚠️ 48:36 Taylor on why Anthropic's communications with the government made the Fable export control inevitable

🏛️ 57:09 Kain on why the Fable shutdown is the 'first fracture' in AI, and what the lack of pushback means

🌍 01:00:18 Binance's EU license bid in doubt, and Kain's contrarian case that losing Europe is bullish

📉 01:07:32 Strategy sold 32 Bitcoin on June 1 then bought back 1,587: what the panic reaction revealed about Bitcoin's concentration risk

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bits + Bips: Why Pandl Calls Gold and Bitcoin Buys Here Jun 19, 2026

Show notes

Zach Pandl, Head of Research at Grayscale Investments, argues that speculative retail flows, not geopolitical fundamentals, drove the recent gold and Bitcoin selloffs. His read: momentum chasing built gold from $4,000 to well above $5,000, then rotated out to chips and pre-IPO trades. The underlying deficit-and-debt case for both assets hasn't changed, and he's calling the dip a buy for longer-horizon investors.

He closes with Grayscale's H2 DeFi revenue thesis. Hyperliquid is the clearest proof of concept: a protocol with a clear use case, real revenue, and value returned to token holders. Grayscale applied a discounted cash flow model to Aave and published a price target on the token.

Host:

Steven Ehrlich, Host of Bits + Bips: The Interview and Head of Research at Sharplink - https://x.com/Steven_Ehrlich

Guest:

Zach Pandl - Head of Research at Grayscale Investments - https://x.com/LowBeta

This clip is from a longer conversation on the Fed's hawkish pivot, the SpaceX IPO, crypto winter, and Strategy's preferred equity. Full episode here: https://www.youtube.com/live/WIlLtRQidQg?si=ONIIkcPElZFgpa8l

We go live every Thursday at 12:00pm ET - subscribe to catch it live.

Sponsors

Cape: Your biggest crypto vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your phone number. Cape is America's privacy-first mobile carrier that rotates your SIM identity daily and blocks SIM swaps before they happen. Get 33% off your first six months at https://cape.co/unchained (use code: UNCHAINED).

Chapters

🔍 00:00 Steve on gold and Bitcoin's worst quarter - what happened during the Iran war

📊 00:57 Why Pandl argues speculation, not fundamentals, drove both the run-up and the selloff

🥇 02:42 The buy case - Pandl on what to do when speculative excess washes out

💡 03:25 Steve asks about second-half assets and Standard Chartered's Uniswap call

💰 03:50 Why Hyperliquid and Aave anchor Grayscale's H2 DeFi revenue thesis

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices