The Voices of War

Latest Episodes:

19. David Livingstone Smith - On Dehumanisation Aug 09, 2021

Show notes

My guest today is David Livingstone Smith, who is a Professor of Philosophy at the University of New England.

He has authored nine books with his more recent titles focusing on dehumanisation, race, and propaganda. His 2011 ‘Less Than Human: Why We Demean, Enslave and Exterminate Others’ won the 2012 Anisfield-Wolf award for nonfiction. David’s most recent book ‘On Inhumanity: Dehumanization and How to Resist It’ was published by Oxford University Press in 2020, and his tenth book, ‘Making Monsters: The Uncanny Power of Dehumanization’ will be published by Harvard University Press later this year.

David is an interdisciplinary scholar, whose publications are cited not only by other philosophers, but also by historians, legal scholars, psychologists, and anthropologists. He has been featured in prime-time television documentaries, is often interviewed and cited in the national and international media and was a guest at the G20 economic summit in 2012.

As many listeners will know, David is a leading thinker in this field, and has influenced much of our understanding of dehumanisation. We had a wide-ranging discussion and covered topics such as:

David’s motivation behind his research focus
Race as a cultural construct
The view one is ‘marinated’ in, is what one perceives as ‘real’
Different races vs. human variation
Race vs. Ethnicity
Assigning values to lives and the psychological cost of it
Overcoming the resistance to killing in war
Racilising and Dehumanisation as a protective mechanism in war
The cost of desensitisation to killing
Definition of dehumanisation
Psychological, political and social dimensions of dehumanisation
Why we’re all vulnerable to the process of dehumanisation
Dehumanisation is not a choice, but something that happens to us
The power of the environment and social forces
The need to assist soldiers ‘cleanse’ after killing on battlefields
The need to understand why atrocities in war occur
The ‘Essence’ of being human
‘Making Monsters’
The need to face our ‘past’ to understand our ‘today’

If you've enjoyed this episode, I would appreciate it if you could share it and tag @thevoicesofwar so that I can say hello.

18. Shannon E French - On ’The Code of the Warrior’ and Ethics of War Aug 02, 2021

Show notes

My guest today is Professor Shannon E. French from Case Western Reserve University (CWRU) where she is also the Inamori Professor in Ethics, and the Director of the Inamori International Center for Ethics and Excellence. Prior to her current role, she taught for 11 years at the US Naval Academy in Annapolis, where she was a tenured member of the Ethics department and Associate Chair of the division of Leadership, Ethics, and Law.

Shannon’s primary research field is military ethics, with a special focus on conduct of war issues, ethical leadership, command climate, sacrifice and responsibility, warrior transitions, ethical responses to terrorism, the future of warfare, and emerging military technology, including Artificial Intelligence. Her publications include ‘The Code of the Warrior: Exploring Warrior Values, Past and Present’, which we discussed today, as well as a number of edited volumes, book chapters and peer-reviewed articles on military ethics. You can read Shannon's full biography here.

Some of the topics we covered are:

Shannon's entry into the field of military ethics
Background to the 'Code of the Warrior'
Common 'codes' among warriors across cultures
The embodied identity of the 'warrior'
Our collective responsibility towards our 'warriors'
Given how we fight wars today, are 'war crimes' and ethical demise inevitable?
Issue of the 'Supreme Emergency'
The need to focus on civilians
Interests vs Values as reasons for war
Moral injury and 'death before dishonour'
How do we categorise 'terrorists'?
Should we fight 'evil with evil'?
Shannon's new project on military ethics and AI

I think this is one of the most important conversation I've had so far as it goes to the core of the reality of military service, particularly as it relates to the ongoing War on Terror. I would love to hear what you think so tag the show using the handle @thevoicesofwar on Twitter, Facebook or LinkedIn.

17. Will Yates and Joe McCleary - On Trial for War Crimes: A Soldier’s Experience Jul 26, 2021

Show notes

My guests today are Will Yates and Joe McCleary. Will is a freelance writer, documentary producer and investigative researcher for television, film and radio with more than 18 years’ experience producing factual programming for outlets such as The National Geographic, BBC and the History Channel. Throughout his career, he has spent many years investigating the war in Iraq and recently published his first book titled ‘War Trials: Investigation of a Soldier and the Trauma of Iraq’.

The book is a true account of Joe’s time serving in Iraq as a British soldier in 2003 and his role in the tragic death of a 15-year-old Iraqi boy, which lead to multiple war crimes court cases of which he was ultimately cleared. Throughout the ordeal, Joe battled with severe mental health issues and has tried to take his own life numerous times. This book is the first time that a British soldier accused of war crimes in Iraq has opened up in an unguarded and in-depth manner. As a result, the book is a deeply moving account of the true nature of war and explores themes of military conduct and responsibilities of those serving in war zones.

Will and Joe join me today to discuss the book as well as to dive deeper into some of the issues Joe’s war experience has brought to light. Some of the topics we covered are:

How and why the book came about
Details of the tragic incident
Reality of soldiering in Basra during the first days of the invasion
The importance of shedding light on soldiers’ experience in war
Gradual desensitisation to human suffering
Looting in Basra and second order effects of adaptability and initiative
Life as an accused ‘war criminal’ and ensuing mental health challenges
Investigations and the trial
Life after the Army

As you will hear, Joe’s descriptions of soldiering as well as mental health challenges he faced are very emotional and visceral. Hence, this episode may be quite disturbing to some listeners.

Lastly, for my Australian audience, military and otherwise, if you or someone you know are suffering, there is help available. Below are some of the many agencies offering support. For my audience around the world, please look for help. Even if there are no services in your area, the internet has opened up many previously unavailable avenues. As Joe says in the episode, you are important, so please take the necessary first step and look out for yourself and each other.

All-hours Support Line

(1800 628 036 / +612 9425 3878 if O/S)

1800 IMSICK

(1800 624 608)

Defence Community Organisation (DCO)

Defence Family Helpline

1800 624 608

http://www.defence.gov.au/dco/

Open Arms (VVCS)

1800 011 046

https://www.openarms.gov.au/

Lifeline

13 11 14

https://www.lifeline.org.au

Suicide Call back service

1300 659 467

https://www.suicidecallbackservice.org.au

16. Andrew Quilty - Perspectives of a Photo- and Investigative- Journalist Jul 19, 2021

Show notes

My guest today is one of Australia’s most-prominent photo/investigative journalists, Andrew Quilty. Andrew started his career in Sydney, then moved to New York City and eventually to Kabul, Afghanistan, after a two-week trip to photograph the Afghan cricket team turned into an odyssey now into its eighth year. He has worked in all but a handful of Afghanistan's 34 provinces, photographed for most of the world's premiere publications and won several accolades, including a World Press Photo Award, a Polk Award, several Picture of the Year International awards and the Gold Walkley, Australian journalism's highest honour.

More recently, Andrew has focussed on the written word. His 18-month investigation into a CIA-led Afghan militia, responsible for several massacres in 2019, for The Intercept, was recently the recipient of an Overseas Press Club of America Award. His most recent piece published in the April edition of The Monthly is titled, ‘The Worst form of Defence: New revelations of Australian war crimes in Afghanistan’, which is an investigation into alleged war crimes by Australian special forces in Uruzgan. This, of course, is separate to the 'Afghanistan Enquiry' released in Nov last year.

We covered many topics, including:

Andrew’s entry into photography
The craft of photography
The pull of Afghanistan
‘Seeing’ the people of Afghanistan
Danger of oversimplified narratives of conflict
Second-order effects of coalition operations
Foreigner’s (lack of) understanding of Afghanistan
Background to his award-winning photo “The Man on the Operating Table”
Andrew’s shift to the written word
The dangers of life as a war journalist
Andrew’s views on the future of Afghanistan

You can see some of Andrew's photographs via his webpage here, read Andrew’s article 'The CIA’s Afghan Death Squads' here, and his article ‘The Worst form of Defence’, here.

For recent updates on the situation in Afghanistan, you can follow Andrew on Twitter (@andrewquilty). If you'd like to comment on the episode, visit us @TheVoicesOfWar.

15. John Blaxland - Reflexions on Australian military operations and lessons learnt Jul 12, 2021

Show notes

My guest today is John Blaxland, who is a Professor of International Security and Intelligence Studies and former Head of the Strategic and Defence Studies Centre at the Australian National University.

Prior to his academic pursuits, John enjoyed an extensive career as an Intelligence Officer in the Australian Army including as the principal intelligence staff officer for the Australian infantry brigade deployed to East Timor in September 1999, an intelligence exchange officer in Washington DC, Director Joint Intelligence Operations at Headquarters Joint Operations Command and Australia’s Defence Attaché to Thailand and Myanmar.

John's full biography, along with his academic credentials and the extensive list of books he has published, can be viewed here.

As you will hear, we covered a broad range of subjects, including:

John’s Army career and journey into academia
Building the cultural knowledge of Timor Leste
When strategy and tactics don’t align—reflection on Australia’s involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq
Were Australia’s commitment to Afghanistan and Iraq strategic successes or failures?
Impact of operations in the Middle East on Australia’s understanding of Southeast Asia and the South Pacific
Understanding the human terrain and culture—critical to mission success
John’s proposal to create a regional maritime cooperation forum for Malaysia, Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia and Singapore—MANIS
Australia’s posturing towards China
Likelihood of war between US and China

You can access ‘Niche Wars: Australia in Afghanistan and Iraq, 2001 to 2014’ here. And, as promised in the intro of the episode, you can order ‘The Australian Army From Whitlam to Howard’, here.

14. Džemil Hodžić - Finding Light in the Dark Jul 05, 2021

Show notes

My guest today is Džemil Hodžić who was born in Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and was only nine years old when the war started in 1992. In this episode, Džemil describes in intimate detail the hugely traumatic and emotional experience of watching his brother, Amel, killed by a Serb sniper while playing in the street. As such, this episode may be quite disturbing to some listeners.

Having survived the war, his experiences inspired him to launch the ‘Sniper Alley Project’ in 2019. The mission and goal of the project was initially to find photos of his brother. However, since its inception, it has grown immensely and today, together with the help of other survivors, his aim is to establish a database to record and archive the life of his brother as well as the lives of thousands of children who experienced the war in Sarajevo. By collecting photos of the Siege and preserving the memory of survival through the eyes of children, Džemil seeks to tell those long stories that have been forgotten as a way of preserving the truth.

Some of the topics we covered include:

‘Normalcy’ of life under siege in Sarajevo
Coming to terms with death and eventually opening up about his own trauma
Murder of his brother
Remembering and memory
Life after tragedy
The ‘Sniper Alley Project’
The power of narratives
Importance of preserving history
On forgiveness

I was deeply moved and impacted by this conversation, and I thank Džemil for his openness and courage to be vulnerable.

13. Hasan Aygun - The Pragmatic Diplomat Jun 21, 2021

Show notes

My guest today is Hasan Aygun. He is a Turkish national, who has had an extensive career in international relations, global security and conflict management both as a diplomat and later as a political adviser. Hasan joined the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 1983, and since then, he has served abroad in various functions, including Vice-Consul, First Secretary, Head of Mission and Counsel General in several different countries including Iraq, Italy, Serbia (at that time still Yugoslavia), Austria, Azerbaijan and Saudi Arabia.

He later became a senior political adviser for NATO where over the years he provided advice to six different four-star generals. During this time, he supported NATO humanitarian operations in places like Pakistan during the Kashmir earthquake and in the US during Hurricane Katrina. He also actively participated in Operations in the Sudan and Somalia as well as in counter-piracy operations and support to the African Union.

Hasan is currently an Associate Director at Strategia Worldwide, where he advises multinational businesses, governments and NGO's on complex risk management in conflict affected regions with a geographical focus on the former Soviet states, the Middle East, Africa, the broader Islamic World as well as maritime and energy transportation.

We covered many different points, some of which are:

The life of a diplomat
The nuance of balancing national vs. local priorities in a war zone
Reflections on Hasan’s lunches and tea ceremonies with Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi
The importance of ‘interests’ in determining whether a conflict becomes local or international
Secondary interests as reasons why the West invaded Iraq
Helping Bosnian refugees as a Turkish diplomat in Serbia during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina
The importance of narratives propagated by ‘people you want to believe’ and ‘pack identity’ in starting and sustaining war
Why otherwise good people do horrible things
Post-conflict recovery as an industry
Difficulty and lack of incentives in finding a win-win solution in war zones
How national interests shape NATO interventions or lack thereof
50% of success in an intervention rests on understanding the culture of stakeholders in a conflict
Are all societies ready for democracy?
Why a war between the US and China is not likely

Finally, as you’ll be reminded in the introduction to the episode, here is the link for a short survey on the podcast. Thank you for taking two minutes to complete it.

https://forms.gle/HzBzMeDnGuSGUJi89

I hope you enjoy the episode.

12. Roger Noble - A Major General’s Perspective Jun 07, 2021

Show notes

My guest today is Major General Roger Noble, AO DSC CSC, who recently retired from the Australian Defence Force as a senior officer in the Australian Army. During his extensive career, he has commanded the 2nd Cavalry Regiment, the Al Muthanna Task Group in Iraq and was also Commander 3rd Brigade. Throughout his years of service, he has deployed six times on operations to East Timor, Afghanistan and Iraq.

Most recently, General Noble was appointed as Australia's Ambassador for Counterterrorism and is responsible for leading international engagement and representation at bilateral, regional and multilateral forums in the field.

As you will hear, we covered a range of topics, some of which include:

General Noble’s first deployment to Iraq in 1992 as part of the UN Special Commission to destroy Saddam’s WMDs
Reflections on his return to Iraq in 2005 and 2016
Context behind his three rules: ‘Be culturally aware, keep a low profile and stay in the corner of their eye’
Negotiating with the ‘enemy’
Importance of individual as well as organisational self-awareness
The need for an anthropological understanding of our own culture, then of our friends and finally of our enemies
Suggestion on how we improve our understanding of the human terrain in operational theatres
Importance of on-the-ground personal experience within senior leaders
Why the military is the go-to toolbox for Western democracies
‘He with the best narrative wins’
The nature of contemporary war
General Noble’s reflections on the true nature of war
The risk of resting on our laurels

Finally, as you’ll hear about in the introduction of this episode, here is the link for a short survey on the podcast. Thank you for taking two minutes to complete it.

https://forms.gle/HzBzMeDnGuSGUJi89

I hope you enjoy the episode.

11. Harry Moffitt - A Humble Warrior May 24, 2021

Show notes

My guest today is Anthony ‘Harry’ Moffitt, a recently retired veteran of the Australian Defence Force where he served for nearly 30 years. Most of that time, he has spent in the Special Air Service Regiment, more commonly known as the SAS. During his time, he completed 11 active service deployments amassing nearly 1000 days on Special Operations globally.

Since leaving the Army, Harry has become a registered psychologist and runs a human performance consultancy working with sports teams, the military and industry. He is also the Asia-Pacific Director for the Mission Critical Team Institute. He is also the lead singer and songwriter for the rock band The Externals.

Harry also recently authored his memoir, 'Eleven Bats', which is a book about his military service, the SAS and his love of cricket. Along with the book, some of the other topics we covered are:

Harry's journey into the SAS
The first years of the war in Afghanistan
How strategy translates into tactics or how it fails to do so
Importance of understanding the human terrain
Change in how the SAS came to be used
The price of war paid by those most-vulnerable
Selecting the right people for the SAS
The act of killing and its aftermath
Ethics of war and its link to mental wellbeing
The price paid by family members of those who serve
The power of cricket on deployments
The role of education in a soldier's life

This was a hugely satisfying and rich discussion and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did recording it.

Harry's book 'Eleven Bats' is available at:

https://www.dymocks.com.au/book/eleven-bats-by-anthony-harry-moffitt-9781760877842

Harry's podcast with Deane-Peter Baker that we mentioned is available as episode #18 at: https://missioncti.com/teamcast/

Finally, the Externals recently released their new single 'The Hell Beyond' on Spotify. You can find it at: https://open.spotify.com/album/5NNRcziDrTnwr6orAT6R3N

10. Cian O’Driscoll - A Philosopher’s Take on Just War Theory May 10, 2021

Show notes

My guest today is Cian O’Driscoll. He is originally from Limerick, in the Southwest of Ireland where he completed his schooling and undergraduate degree, before moving to Nova Scotia, and then Wales, for Grad School. He completed his PhD at the University of Wales, Aberystwyth, and worked at the University of Glasgow before joining the Australian National University, Canberra in 2020.

His principal area of research is the intersection between normative international relations theory and the history of political thought, with a particular focus on the ethics of war.

His published work examines the development of the just war tradition over time and the role it plays in circumscribing contemporary debates about the rights and wrongs of warfare. These themes are reflected in his two monographs: Victory: The Triumph and Tragedy of Just War (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2019) and The Renegotiation of the Just War Tradition (New York: Palgrave, 2008).

Cian has also co-edited three volumes and his work has been published in leading journals in the field, including International Studies Quarterly, the European Journal of International Relations, the Journal of Strategic Studies, the Journal of Global Security Studies, Review of International Studies, Ethics & International Affairs, and Millennium.

Some of the topics we covered today are:

Cian’s research on the narratives that the Bush and Blair administrations used to frame the 2003 war in Iraq
Reflections on the widening of the jus ad bellum (justifications for war) since the end of the Cold War and its consequences
Exploration of Gulf War 1 as a ‘just war’ and the potential irony of its aftermath
The inability of Just War Theory, try hard as it might, to sanitise war
The challenge faced by military leaders when wrestling with Just War Theory
‘Just War is just war’

I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion with Cian, and hope you do as well. I recently finished his book that we frequently mention, Victory: The Triumph and Tragedy of Just War, and can warmly recommend it to anyone contemplating the complexities of Just War Theory—the principle tool used by Western militaries to manage conflict.

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