The Modern People Leader: Forward-Thinking HR

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(05:21) Joy’s origin story: from hospitality ops to finding a home in HR

(07:48) Early career breaks, sponsorship, and a philosophy of giving people a chance

(09:59) Layoff, comeback call, and stepping into the top HR role

(10:33) Boundaries after a career shock and sustaining a healthier pace

(14:51) Omni in 2025: brand position, ownership model, and high-touch service strategy

(18:39) “You have a culture”: balancing the guest–owner–associate “trilogy”

(21:00) Crisis choices: 9/11 vs. COVID, service tradeoffs, and rebuilding momentum

(23:13) Betting big during downturns: PGA Frisco and major openings through COVID

(24:31) Tenure, recognition, and lessons from being let go after 18 years

(26:26) Returning with boundaries and perspective

(27:54) The “Gung Ho” boardroom moment and trusting your convictions

(30:20) Dusting off the classics: reviving core Omni programs and cross-functional buy-in

(32:28) Power of One 1.0: empowerment and 19 service points

(34:32) Power of All detour and the case to simplify

(35:34) Power of One 2.0: three plain-English principles that everyone remembers

(36:29) Stories that stick: macaw video, the Herman Miller chair, and solving what you see

(39:55) Wedding saved: saying yes and training teams to own outcomes

(41:28) Why this sticks when other initiatives do not

(43:42) “Training that sticks” playbook: ops partnership, writers, pilots, and scorecards

(46:10) Logistics at scale: 8,500 front-line learners, 90 trainers, monthly reporting

(47:58) Mantras with teeth: Elevate Service, Elevate Revenue, and tying bonuses to usage

(49:48) Ownership, accountability, and why ops should teach service

(51:17) Rapid Fire: advice for new HR, “culture warrior,” and borrowing Chewy’s playbook

(54:06) Who’s next: Will Guidara and the craft of unreasonable hospitality

(56:00) A quick story about Milk Bar cookies and influence

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Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Build - How to stress-test your business case with Jessica Zwaan Sep 29, 2025

Show notes

Jessica Zwaan joins MPL Build to show HR leaders how to craft business cases that CEOs actually approve, using BLUF, the So What test, and clear links to revenue and savings. We walk through conservative projections, objection handling, and a live role-play on adopting a performance platform in today’s fiscally skeptical environment.

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(05:19) Jessica’s hierarchy: make money, save money, then time

(08:45) Jessica’s shift from words to numbers and data

(12:20) Tying HR work to revenue in practice(13:52) Choosing revenue vs savings and building the argument

(15:42) “I cracked it” moment: McCann Worldgroup restructuring win

(19:16) The “So What” Test explained and how to run it

(21:57) Anticipating objections inside the deck

(24:20) Role-play setup: $50k performance platform after HR Tech

(25:32) Start with the problem: talent density and revenue leakage

(26:08) Connecting performance signals to revenue and savings(28:31) From messy data to leading indicators leaders can use

(30:23) Pitch format preferences(31:12) BLUF: Bottom line up front

(32:39) Estimating impact and why to lean conservative

(34:30) Standing behind numbers with board scrutiny

(36:10) Is budget still tight and what fiscal skepticism means

(37:43) Why rigor matters in an AI-saturated vendor landscape

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257 - Decoupling performance from compensation: Kim Minnick (Code Traveller HR) Sep 24, 2025

Show notes

Kim Minnick, Founder of Code Traveller HR, joined us on The Modern People Leader.

We dug into why performance reviews often fail, how companies can decouple performance from compensation, creative ways to reward employees beyond pay, and the importance of transparency, choice, and designing programs that reflect company values.

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(11:26) Why Most Companies Get Performance Management Wrong

(15:59) The Noise & Confusion Around Rethinking Performance

(19:44) Building Programs Unique to Your Company’s Mission & People

(21:18) Decoupling Performance from Compensation

(24:06) Why Performance Management Has Low Credibility with Employees

(28:29) Shifting Rewards Beyond Pay & Limiting Overwork

(32:57) Keeping Compensation-Driven Employees Engaged

(34:04) Evolving Compensation Models & Budgeting Differently

(40:26) Why Transparency in Compensation Matters

(43:29) Defining Company Values to Drive Rewards & Recognition

(45:30) Giving Employees Choice in How They’re Rewarded

(50:30) The Risk of Turning Rewards into a “Feature Comparison”

(52:34) Why Letting Employees Choose Could Be a Good Thing

(55:33) HR Tech Limitations & Building Custom Solutions

(57:57) The Economics of DIY vs. B2B SaaS Tools

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256 - Leading Through Layoffs & Constant Change (Mita Mallick, Shelby Garrison, & Kelly Lohr) Sep 19, 2025

Show notes

This episode of The Modern People Leader dives into the realities of leading through constant change, featuring guests Mita Mallick, Shelby Garrison, and Kelly Lohr.

We discussed how HR leaders can navigate layoffs with transparency and humanity, the importance of supporting both exiting and remaining employees, and how to build resilience and adaptability into workplace culture.

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(07:13) Why Layoffs Feel Like a New Normal

(09:25) Shelby on the Disconnect Between Job Reports and Employee Reality

(14:27) Kelly on Building the Muscle to Adapt to Change

(18:31) Mita on Transparency Before Layoffs Happen

(21:27) The Shift in Employer Branding Conversations

(22:37) Mistakes Companies Make During Layoffs That Damage Brand

(25:04) Moments That Matter Most When Communicating Change

(28:29) Shelby’s Two-Audience Approach to Layoff Planning

(32:05) What Modern Support for Exiting Employees Looks Like

(35:33) Balancing Empathy and Clarity in Layoff Conversations

(38:58) Supporting Remaining Employees After Layoffs

(45:17) Mita on Allowing Space to Acknowledge Those Who Left

(47:11) Shelby on Bringing a Human-First Approach to Change

(51:00) Q&A: The Problem with Silent Layoffs and How to Rebuild Trust

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255 - DEI’s New Reality: Yemi Akisanya (Head of Justice, Equity, Diversity, & Inclusion, Axon) Sep 16, 2025

Show notes

Yemi Akisanya, Head of JEDI (Justice, Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion) at Axon, joined us on The Modern People Leader.

We talked about how the DEI conversation is evolving post-2020, why quotas are being replaced with performance-aligned strategies, and how Axon is making inclusion measurable and mission-critical.

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(06:24) Yemi’s Life & Career Update: From Groupon to Axon

(08:51) What is Axon? Tech That Protects Life (Explained Simply)

(11:46) The Current State of DEI: Legal Risks, Compliance, and Backlash

(13:04) How 2020 Changed the DEI Landscape—And Where It Went Off Track

(15:28) The Rise and Fall of Quota-Based DEI and Legal Pushback

(17:53) The New DEI Mandate: Must Be Performance-Driven and Legally Sound

(19:30) Title VII and the Legal Boundaries of Hiring Decisions

(22:49) Axon’s Hiring Funnel Strategy: Focus on Top-of-Funnel Diversity

(24:17) Why Diverse Input Without Inclusion Breeds Tokenism

(26:48) Stephen’s Experience as a Diversity Officer (2009–2011)

(29:39) The Unintended Consequences of Quota-Driven Metrics

(32:26) What’s Changed? Not the Law, but the Enforcement & Tone

(34:06) Clarifying What Legal vs. Illegal DEI Looks Like Today

(38:29) Expanding the Talent Funnel: Tactics Axon Uses to Diversify Without Quotas

(41:44) Events, Job Boards, and Global Outreach to Source Talent

(42:59) Applying a Funnel Mindset: DEI as Performance Marketing

(45:10) Did DEI Practitioners Go Too Far? Owning the Missteps

(48:03) Why Bias Isn’t Bad—But It Must Be Checked and Understood

(50:30) Inclusion Surveys as Strategic Input: Measuring What Holds People Back

(51:15) Daniel’s 2020 ERG Experience: Culture Celebration vs. Business Impact

(53:43) Evolving ERGs into Performance Assets (Not Just Event Groups)

(56:47) Performance-Driven DEI: Monitoring Ratings, Promotions, Engagement

(58:47) Training for All, Cultural Context, and Blending Communities

(01:01:13) Localizing DEI Efforts Globally: Lessons from Groupon

(01:03:32) Axon’s Inclusion Programs, Pay Equity Audits, and Cross-Cultural Equity

(01:08:20) Who Should We Have Next? Shoutout to Elizabeth Hart at Axon

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Build - “AI Abstinence” & Why Your HR Team Needs an AI Fair Use Policy Sep 05, 2025

Show notes

Jessica Zwaan, Author of Built for People & COO at Talentful, joined us on The Modern People Leader.

We talked about AI adoption in HR, from policy design to hands-on building. We explored the “Wild West” of AI use, tool selection, overcoming the stigma of ‘cheating,’ and practical frameworks like the 4Bs (Bot, Build, Borrow, Buy) to guide adoption and innovation.

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(07:07) Kicking off the AI Wild West discussion in HR

(09:10) “AI abstinence” vs. open use – two ends of the spectrum

(12:00) No new ideas – why blocking AI is like banning books

(17:05) Stigma around AI use and feelings of ‘cheating’

(20:18) AI as an Iron Man suit, not Ultron – decision-making analogy

(22:29) Org-wide vs. departmental AI policies

(24:20) Jessica’s HR AI stack: Sana, ODA, BrightHire, ChatGPT

(26:11) Why GPT was chosen over other LLMs

(29:37) Functional flexibility in AI tool adoption

(31:58) Privacy, disclosure, and “don’t be dumb” rules

(33:15) The 4Bs framework – Bot, Build, Borrow, Buy

(36:51) Different levels of “build” – from zaps to full applications

(41:59) Why not to fear losing custom AI knowledge when employees leave

(46:43) Borrowing vs. buying – making smart investment decisions

(48:41) Avoiding “hire first” thinking – the Mythical Man Month

(53:28) How to start: planning, tool exploration, and playful learning

(56:05) Voice note + walk workflow for AI productivity

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253 - The AI Vendor Checklist Every HR Leader Needs: Pilar Muner (VP of People & Talent, ChartHop) Sep 02, 2025

Show notes

Pilar Muner, VP of People & Talent at ChartHop, joined us on The Modern People Leader.

We covered:

- Why fractional work isn’t always the burnout cure-all it’s made out to be

-How ChartHop is using AI to power HR workflows in-house

- The AI vendor checklist every HR leader needs — what to ask, what to watch for, and how to cut through the hype

If you’re evaluating AI tools for your people team, this episode will give you a practical lens on security, data integrity, and what to prioritize in vendor selection.

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(10:56) Pilar’s Journey: From law aspirations to falling into HR

(13:07) Career Philosophy: “Just say yes” and the path through early-stage companies

(15:07) Why Pilar Went Fractional: A health-focused shift, not burnout

(17:18) Accidental Fractional Life: A few lucky client handoffs snowball

(18:46) Is Fractional Less Stressful? The importance of boundaries

(20:45) HR for HR: Why burnout doesn’t disappear without behavior change

(23:39) Boundary setting and designing your own career

(25:09) ChartHop Time: The magic of internal and external facing people ops

(26:37) Product Deep Dive: ChartHop’s back-end data architecture explained

(28:36) Why ChartHop is Built for AI from the Ground Up

(30:30) Empathy in HR Tech: ChartHop’s internal culture surprises

(32:27) ChartHop for Builders: Why it clicks for HR innovators

(35:42) Pilar’s AI Takeaways: Sophisticated people analytics—even at 25 people

(37:22) AI + HR Data: Beyond dashboards into contextual intelligence

(39:30) The Risks of Uploading Data to Public LLMs

(41:47) What ChartHop Does to Keep Client Data Secure

(44:51) Questions HR Leaders Should Ask AI Vendors

(47:21) Is HR Ready for AI? Why sitting on the sidelines isn’t safe

(49:08) Use Case Example: AI-powered performance review feedback

(51:09) Human Judgment Still Required: Don’t rely solely on AI

(52:52) The Importance of Judicious AI Prompts in HR

(53:19) ChartHop’s View on AI Front Doors & Model Context Protocols

(55:37) Internal Testing: ChartHop dogfoods its own platform with Salesforce, NetSuite, and Gong

(58:38) Favorite Use Case: Performance reviews written with AI accuracy

(01:02:21) Engagement Survey in 3 Hours Instead of 50

(01:04:46) ChartHop Use Cases: The AI-powered HRBP assistant

(01:07:09) Treating AI like your own HRBP: Macro-level strategy

(01:11:38) GenAI as HR for HR: Scenario planning and internal insights

(01:15:04) Weekly Check-Ins: AI helps prioritize which employees need attention

(01:16:13) Rapid Fire: Pilar’s one big takeaway—just try

(01:18:22) Superpower Nickname: The Force or The Inspirer

(01:20:12) Strategy to Steal: Zapier’s AI-first approach

(01:21:54) Shoutouts: 5 emerging HR leaders you should know

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252 - What HR can do about revenue problems & flipping the HR pyramid: JooBee Yeow (Learngility) Aug 29, 2025

Show notes

JooBee Yeow joined us on The Modern People Leader to talk about why HR must stop overfunctioning and start diagnosing real business problems—especially when revenue is on the line.

We discussed how HR leaders can step out of their silo, challenge assumptions, influence revenue growth, and flip the HR pyramid to prioritize high-impact, strategic work.

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(06:23) JooBee’s Career Journey: From Systems Engineer to Strategic HR Leader

(08:34) What JooBee Learned from Partnering with CTOs over CHROs

(11:48) Stephen’s Experience Managing Engineers as a CEO

(14:07) Preferential Treatment or Strategic Blindspots in Tech-Heavy Teams

(18:08) What JooBee Is Building: Bootcamp, Community, and Mini MBA

(24:31) Why HR Gets Stuck at 50 Employees: Common Traps at Growth Stage

(29:33) Same Problems, New Labels: From Headcount to AI Adoption

(30:33) The Two Questions Every People Leader Must Ask

(32:25) Strategic Planning ≠ Strategic Thinking: Escaping Operational Loops

(34:26) The HR Hierarchy of Needs & Flipping the Pyramid

(44:46) Stop Playing Admin: Behaviors That Keep HR Operational

(47:29) Writing in Anger: The Story Behind JooBee’s “Drive Revenue” Newsletter

(50:57) What to Do When You Won’t Hit Revenue Targets This Quarter

(54:17) Where Is Revenue Leaking? 4 Common Scenarios

(56:09) Don’t Start with “How”—Diagnose First

(59:26) Tactical Advice: How to Be Curious and Find the Right People to Ask

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251 - The CHRO’s Toughest Chapter Yet & What HR Brings to the Boardroom: Tiffany Stevenson (Former CPO @ WeightWatchers & Patreon) Aug 27, 2025

Show notes

Tiffany Stevenson, former Chief People Officer at WeightWatchers and Patreon, joined us on The Modern People Leader.

We talked about this being the CHROs toughest chapter yet, how AI is reshaping HR, and what HR brings to the boardroom.

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(09:35) Tiffany’s career story: From Mirage Resorts to Sephora, Box, Patreon, WW

(14:34) First career break & adjusting to downtime

(16:59) Learning phase: Board readiness program & executive compensation course

(19:01) Why being a CHRO is harder now than during the pandemic

(23:49) Reframing today’s challenges as opportunities

(25:11) Stephen’s thoughts on AI transformation as a once-in-a-generation shift

(28:51) Finding focus amid economic, policy, and AI noise

(31:36) Tiffany’s current purpose: Leading people through transformations

(33:19) Defining individual purpose & aligning with business transformation

(35:21) Why she chose to invest in human-centered board skills

(37:48) What board service training looks like

(39:34) Realizing CHROs often undersell their impact to boards

(42:46) How to position yourself for board service

(46:20) Typical board makeup & where CHRO expertise fits

(49:21) Misconceptions about board work & time commitment

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250 - In the age of AI, managers are still the glue: Priscila Bala (CEO, LifeLabs Learning) Aug 22, 2025

Show notes

Priscila Bala, CEO of LifeLabs Learning, joined us on The Modern People Leader.

We explored how AI is transforming learning, the enduring role of middle management, and why the most impactful leadership skills are more human than ever.

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