How can Leaders Support Schoolwide Direct Instruction? with Bonnie Grossen and Kurt Engelmann
Jul 13, 2025
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Direct Instruction Podcast. I’m Dr. Zach Groshell, and today I’m joined by two outstanding leaders in the DI community: Bonnie Grossen and Kurt Engelmann.
Bonnie Grossen has supported schoolwide Direct Instruction implementations across a wide range of settings—from urban districts to rural communities, both in the U.S. and internationally. In this episode, she shares key lessons from supporting Direct Instruction at the Arthur Academy Charter Schools.
We’re also joined by Kurt Engelmann, returning from Episode 1, who brings sharp insights into the real-world execution of Direct Instruction.
Together, Bonnie and Kurt walk us through what full-immersion, schoolwide DI really looks like. We explore how the model originated, how it adapts across grade levels, how it aligns with Multi-Tiered Systems of Support (MTSS), and the critical role of leadership in sustaining success. We also talk about realistic expectations and the most common mistakes schools and districts make when implementing DI.
This podcast is brought to you by NIFDI, the National Institute for Direct Instruction. NIFDI partners with schools around the world to support high-fidelity DI implementation. I’ll be bringing this podcast to their annual conference in Eugene, Oregon, summer 2025—and I hope to see you there! Visit www.nifdi.org for details.
If you find value in these conversations, help us spread the word by leaving a 5-star rating on your favorite podcast platform. And now, let’s roll the tape on my conversation with Bonnie Grossen and Kurt Engelmann.
Results of Implementation #1 and Graph of Implementation #2 that were analyzed at the start of the episode.
The Administrator Leadership Institute at the National Direct Instruction Conference:
This five-day institute is designed to help leaders develop a clear roadmap for implementing DI successfully for all students in their school or district.
Much of the content of the Administrator Leadership Institute corresponds to the second section in the handbook, which provides additional background on the goals of DI, the research evidence in support of DI, and other topics.
The short film, Why is Reading so Hard? explains the structure and method used in teaching Reading Mastery.
It is less than nine minutes long, but it is jam packed with useful info and compelling graphics. See: https://youtu.be/gBFC1keuJIg
Bonnie is the chair of the board of directors of the Arthur Academy Charter Schools, https://www.arthuracademy.org, six small elementary schools in the greater Portland, Oregon area that use DI programs for core instruction for all students.
If you love the DI podcast, please help me spread it around, and give it 5-star rating on the platform of your choosing.
This podcast is brought to you by NIFDI, or the National Institute for Direct Instruction. NIFDI supports schools all over the world to implement Direct Instruction with fidelity, and it has invited me to bring this podcast to their conference in Eugene OR in the summer of 2025. You can find more information about how NIFDI kickstarts and enhances Direct Instruction implementations by going to www.nifdi.org, and I hope you register for the conference and come see me do my thing at my sessions.
Can’t Get Enough Content?
Kris Boulton is a teacher who became inspired by Engelmann and Theory of Instruction. Listen to him talk about how he thinks about DI principles in this insightful episode of Progressively Incorrect.
Contact Zach Groshell for speaking and consulting here
How Can Direct Instruction Strengthen an MTSS Framework? with Stephanie Stollar, Diane Kinder, and Marcy Stein
Jul 01, 2025
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Direct Instruction Podcast. I’m Dr. Zach Groshell, and today I’m excited to share a conversation with three leading voices in education: Stephanie Stollar, Diane Kinder, and Marcy Stein.
In this episode, we dive deep into how Multi-Tiered Systems of Support (MTSS) can align with Direct Instruction to create more effective, scalable systems for all learners. From implementation challenges to the critical importance of fidelity, this trio brings insight, experience, and clarity to questions that often get muddied in theory but matter immensely in practice.
If you love the DI podcast, please help me spread it around, and give it 5-star rating on the platform of your choosing.
This podcast is brought to you by NIFDI, or the National Institute for Direct Instruction. NIFDI supports schools all over the world to implement Direct Instruction with fidelity, and it has invited me to bring this podcast to their conference in Eugene OR in the summer of 2025. You can find more information about how NIFDI kickstarts and enhances Direct Instruction implementations by going to www.nifdi.org, and I hope you register for the conference and come see me do my thing at my sessions.
Videos from Project RTI
Side by Side Coaching
Partnerships
Can’t Get Enough Content?
I highly recommend listening to this VERY popular episode of Progressively Incorrect with Stephanie Stollar, and considering getting in touch with her to join her excellent Reading Science Academy.
Contact Zach Groshell for speaking and consulting here
How do Direct Instruction and Behavior Work Hand-in-Hand? with Geoff Colvin
May 14, 2025
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Direct Instruction podcast. My name is Dr. Zach Groshell, and today I am excited to be bringing you an interview with another DI legend, Geoff Colvin. Geoff will take us through the functions of student behavior, and the intersection of a well-managed classroom and a well-designed lesson.
If you love the DI podcast, please help me spread it around, and give it 5-star rating on the platform of your choosing.
This podcast is brought to you by NIFDI, or the National Institute for Direct Instruction. NIFDI supports schools all over the world to implement Direct Instruction with fidelity, and it has invited me to bring this podcast to their conference in Eugene OR in the summer of 2025. You can find more information about how NIFDI kickstarts and enhances Direct Instruction implementations by going to www.nifdi.org, and I hope you register for the conference and come see me do my thing at my sessions.
Watch celeb mom Kat Von D use the program: Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons https://t.co/YArpFEZVOY Get hands-on training in the proven Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons method!#NIFDIConf2025
In addition, I wanted to share with you this recording of the Progressively Incorrect podcast with Laura Stam. Laura found out about Direct Instruction through this podcast, and has found success using Reading Mastery and Connecting Math Concepts in her elementary classroom.
Contact Zach Groshell for speaking and consulting here
How does Direct Instruction Support Special Education? with Randi Saulter and Ann Baum
Feb 20, 2025
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Direct Instruction podcast. My name is Dr. Zach Groshell, and today I am excited to be bringing you an interview with Randi Saulter and Ann Baum. Randi and Ann are two passionate special education teachers who will take us through what Zig Engelmann called the “picky, picky” details of implementing DI in special education classrooms. This episode was probably my favorite of the podcast so far. It’s chock full of insights, bursting with humor and common sense, and I hope it brings you a lot of joy today.
If you love the DI podcast, please help me spread it around, and give it 5-star rating on the platform of your choosing.
This podcast is brought to you by NIFDI, or the National Institute for Direct Instruction. NIFDI supports schools all over the world to implement Direct Instruction with fidelity, and it has invited me to bring this podcast to their conference in Eugene OR in the summer of 2025. You can find more information about how NIFDI kickstarts and enhances Direct Instruction implementations by going to www.nifdi.org, and I hope you register for the conference and come see me do my thing at my sessions.
Can’t Get Enough Content?
In addition, I wanted to share with you this recording of the Progressively Incorrect podcast with special guest, Doug Carnine.
Contact Zach Groshell for speaking and consulting here
How do Fluency and Direct Instruction Improve Literacy Outcomes? with Jan Hasbrouck
Dec 01, 2024
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Direct Instruction podcast. My name is Dr. Zach Groshell, and today I am excited to bring you an interview with Jan Hasbrouck, the keynote speaker at NIFDI’s 2025 National Direct Instruction Conference and Institutes. Dr. Hasbrouck is a renowned researcher and author with a distinguished career dedicated to improving literacy and educational outcomes. Dr. Hasbrouck’s expertise in reading fluency and her involvement with Project Follow Through and Direct Instruction have been pivotal in improving results in schools across the country. Dr. Hasbrouck is also a founding member of Read Washington, a nonprofit organization dedicated to providing professional development based on the science of reading.
Speaking of the National Direct Instruction Conference this summer, I should mention that this podcast is brought to you by NIFDI, or the National Institute for Direct Instruction. NIFDI supports schools all over the world to implement Direct Instruction with fidelity, and it has invited me to bring this podcast to their conference in Eugene, OR, in the summer of 2025. You can find more information about the conference by going to www.nifdi.org, and I encourage you to register for what is the most comprehensive DI training available anywhere.
Can’t Get Enough Content?
In addition, I wanted to share with you recordings of presentations that Marcy Stein and I did in Chile to a packed auditorium of over 1,000 educators. Both talks speak to the power of Direct Instruction.
Zach Groshell’s Talk
Marcy Stein’s Talk
If you love the DI podcast, please help me spread it around, and give it 5-star rating on the platform of your choosing.
How Can Higher Education Better Prepare Future Educators? with Kathy Madigan
Nov 03, 2024
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Direct Instruction podcast. My name is Dr. Zach Groshell, and I am excited to be bringing you an interview with Dr. Kathy Madigan all about Higher Education and Direct Instruction. Kathy has been a teacher, principal, college professor and curriculum coordinator. She co-founded the American Board for Certification of Teacher Excellence and served as the Executive Director for the National Council on Teacher Quality. Previously, she has worked as the Vice President for Advantage Schools where she was responsible for curriculum, behavior, staff development and principal supervision in 16 schools the US that used Direct Instruction.
This podcast is brought to you by NIFDI, or the National Institute for Direct Instruction. I think this is the perfect time to announce that I will be bringing my talents and the Direct Instruction podcast to Eugene, OR in the summer of 2025 for NIFDI’s National Direct Instruction Conference and Institutes. You can find more information about the conference by going to http://www.nifdi.org, and I encourage you to register for what is the most comprehensive DI training available anywhere.
Can’t Get Enough Content?
In addition, I wanted to share with you recordings of presentations that Marcy Stein and I did in Chile to a packed auditorium of over 1,000 educators. Both talks speak to the power of Direct Instruction.
Zach Groshell’s Talk
Marcy Stein’s Talk
If you love the DI podcast, please help me spread it around, and give it 5-star rating on the platform of your choosing.
What are the Components of an Effective DI Implementation? with Tamara Bressi
Sep 22, 2024
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Direct Instruction podcast. My name is Dr. Zach Groshell, and today I am excited to be bringing you a glimpse into my classroom for an unscripted coaching session with Tamara Bressi. Tamara is an experienced Direct Instruction teacher, trainer and instructional coach. I had the honor of working with Tamara over the course of multiple training sessions to develop my implementation of Corrective Mathematics for a middle school intervention context. This episode is structured so that you first hear a recording of me teaching prior to receiving any training, followed by some feedback from Tamara. Then, we will listen to a “post-training” recording, where Tamara and I discuss some of the shifts I have made in implementing Direct Instruction with greater precision. This episode is brought to you by NIFDI, or the National Institute for Direct Instruction. Our guest today is one of the trainers for the Academy on Becoming an Effective Direct Instruction Trainer, which is an integral component of the National Direct Instruction Conference held in Eugene, OR. You can find more information about the conference by going to http://www.nifdi.org, and I encourage you to register for what is the most comprehensive DI training available anywhere.
If you love the DI podcast, please help me spread it around, and give it 5-star rating on the platform of your choosing.
How Has DI Impacted Reading Proficiency in Indigenous Communities? with Casey Sovo
Jun 16, 2024
Hello, and welcome back to the Direct Instruction podcast. My name is Dr. Zach Groshell, and today I am excited to be bringing you a fantastic episode about the role of Direct Instruction in teaching kids to read in indigenous communities across America. I will be interviewing Casey Sovo, a member of the Comanche Nation, a 20-year educator, and a Bureau of Indian Education program administrator. Casey will speak to the incredible improvements in performance of schools that he supported when DI was implemented with fidelity, as well as the obstacles or barriers that he had to address when implementing DI. We will also talk about the times when DI was discontinued in the schools he supported, the dramatic dip in performance that followed, and the return to positive growth when schools decided to restart with DI. Overall, I was inspired by Casey’s passion to eliminate the achievement gap for indigenous students through a data-informed, all-hands-on-deck approach to teaching reading, and it was an honor to have him on the Direct Instruction podcast.
This episode is brought to you by NIFDI, or the The National Institute for Direct Instruction. Registration is open for the National Direct Instruction Conference in Eugene, Oregon this summer, where, in 2024 when this episode was published, Casey Sovo will be the keynote speaker! I’ve provided the links to register in the show notes, and I encourage you to sign up for what is the most comprehensive DI training available anywhere.
If you love the DI podcast, please help me spread it around, and give it 5-star rating on the platform of your choosing.
What is Direct Instruction Mathematics? with Marcy Stein and Bernadette Kelly
May 11, 2024
Welcome back to the Direct Instruction podcast, my name Dr. Zach Groshell, and today we are going to be talking all about Direct Instruction Mathematics.
What you just listened to comes from a 1966 video recording of Zig Engelmann, which I have embedded in the show notes. If you’re not driving while you’re listening to this, I highly recommend that you pause this podcast right now and watch the video in full. It is a perfect showcase for how rigorous and well-structured instruction can empower young learners to grasp even the most complex mathematical concepts.
But what is Direct Instruction mathematics, and how does it differ from more conventional ways of teaching of math? To answer that question, I thought I’d interview some of the experts of DI math about what goes into the design and delivery of this highly effective teaching system. Dr. Marcy Stein is the lead author of Direct Instruction Mathematics and Professor Emeritus of The University of Washington Tacoma. Also joining us is Dr. Bernadette Kelly who co-authored the DI programs, Connecting Math Concepts and Essentials for Algebra. This is an incredible episode that I hope will prompt more schools to consider how top-notch materials designed with the DI approach can break the cycle of stagnant achievement in mathematics. This episode is brought to you by NIFDI, or the The National Institute for Direct Instruction. Registration is open for the National Direct Instruction Conference in Eugene, Oregon this summer. Whether you are new to Direct Instruction, or are looking for training on Administrative Leadership, Coaching, and Becoming an Effective DI Trainer, this is the conference for you. I’ve provided the links to register in the show notes, and I encourage you to sign up for what is the most comprehensive DI training available anywhere.
If you love the DI podcast, please help me spread it around, and give it 5-star rating wherever you get your podcasts!
How Effective is Direct Instruction? with Jean Stockard
Apr 14, 2024
Hello, and welcome back to the Direct Instruction podcast. My name is Dr. Zach Groshell, and today we have a fantastic episode about a half-century of research on the effectiveness of Direct Instruction with Jean Stockard. Dr. Stockard is a distinguished quantitative sociologist, and the author of the book, All Students Can Succeed.
One of the problems we face in education is that everybody claims that their program is “research-based”. These days, most curriculum publishing companies have to show some proof that their program works if they are to make states’ lists of approved programs. The thing is, the determination that the program “works” is often made on the basis of the results of a single study. When you go over to the publisher’s website and click past all the testimonials and flashy graphics, you find that the single study showed small, mixed, and statistically insignificant effects, in favor of their program. Because these studies often include intensive professional development workshops and additional resources for the teachers who received the new program, it is questionable that students’ learning gains can be attributed only to the use of the program, and not to the teacher training that was employed or the extra resources they were provided.
So, I wanted to dig in to the research base of Direct Instruction to see how it compares, and Jean Stockard seemed like the researcher I needed to talk to. She and her colleagues are the authors of the 2016 Meta-Analysis on Direct Instruction Curricula, which contained 328 studies involving 413 study designs and almost 4,000 effects. What I found interesting was that, while the authors knew before they started the project that a lot of research had accumulated over the half-century, they were stunned at the task that lay before them due to the sheer magnitude of research on DI. And when they went to crunch the numbers, the results were so strong and so consistent that they checked and re-checked their findings to make sure they were correct. No matter how they spliced it, they simply could not find any situation in which DI did not work. This episode is brought to you by NIFDI, or the The National Institute for Direct Instruction. Registration is open for the National Direct Instruction Conference in Eugene, Oregon this summer. Whether you are new to Direct Instruction, or are looking for training on Administrative Leadership, Coaching, and Becoming an Effective DI Trainer, this is the conference for you. I’ve provided the links to register in the show notes, and I encourage you to sign up for what is the most comprehensive DI training available anywhere.
If you love the DI podcast, please help me spread it around, and give it 5-star rating on the platform of your choosing.
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