Stay ConnectedBurnt Toast is your body liberation community. We’re working to dismantle diet culture and anti-fat bias, and we have a lot of strong opinions about comfy pants.
Co-hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (NYT-bestselling author of FAT TALK) and Corinne Fay (author of the popular plus size fashion newsletter Big Undies).
Copyright: © Virginia Sole-Smith
You’re listening to Burnt Toast!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and today we’re getting into our Ins and Outs for 2025.Most Indulgence Gospel episodes are paywalled, but we’re releasing today’s conversation for free as a January-has-been-a-lot-aleady treat!If you enjoy this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription.You can also subscribe to Corinne's newsletter, Big Undies, for 20% off using this special link. To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.Also, don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy nowfrom Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, andThank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is byFarideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.---Episode 176 TranscriptVirginiaOkay, Corinne, since you introduced me to this concept, can you explain for the people what an in and out list is?CorinneThis came onto my radar maybe two years ago. Everyone on Instagram was posting a screenshot of their Notes app, with a list on the left of things that are IN for the coming year. And on the right, a list of things that are OUT.I think it’s kind of a fun exercise to do. You could really do it at any time of the year, but, you know, it’s New Year’s. We’re reflecting.VirginiaWhy not?CorinneIt’s kind of like a resolution, but it’s a different framing. Because it’s this is what’s in for me this year. And this is what I’m leaving behind.I also think a lot of the lists that I’ve liked and appreciated are a little cheeky. Like something that’s out will be something you’ve been seeing everywhere.VirginiaAnd you’re over it.On the diet culture front: You could certainly be like, “carbs are out,” and it would be very obviously diet culture. But it feels like there’s a little more room to breathe and make In/Out Lists not diet culture. Because it’s not even necessarily you resolving to do the things on your list. It could just be something you’re enjoying or bringing in. I like the flexibility of that a lot.CorinneThat was one thing I wanted to bring up, because we talked about it last year. I intentionally have not looked back at my list from last year. I hate looking back at my old lists, because when I look at them, I literally feel like, who was that person? If I look back at old pictures of myself, I feel sort of tender for that younger version of myself. But when I look back at the in and out list, I’m like, who was that idiot?VirginiaI think because they are cheeky and responding to trends? It’s kind of capturing a moment in time. Like, whatever is on your out list isa time capsule of the year before, which is fun, but it’s not necessarily going to be your truest core self. These are whims, these are our hot takes or unpopular opinions on things in this moment. It’s fine. I don’t think we have to look back at it. I don’t think we have to hold ourselves to these things lasting all year long. It’s just where we are in this particular moment.CorinneDefinitely. It’s also something that I enjoy as a social activity. I like to ask my friends, what’s in and what’s out for you?VirginiaDid I end up making one last year? I can’t even remember.CorinneI think you did, but I think it was a little late. I didn’t look back for yours because I didn’t want to look back for mine.VirginiaRight, right? We’ll just let that go into the ether.[Post-recording note: Or you can find Virginia’s 2024 list here, if you’re curious!]CorinneAnother thing I’ve seen people doing around New Years is the bingo card, instead of an in and out list.VirginiaOh yeah, someone dropped this in chat this week. What is a bingo card? I don’t understand.CorinneThe concept is basically that you make a bingo board. So what is that? Five by five squares? And each square has a thing in. It can be activities you want to do, or it can be outlandish predictions like, “Drake will be the Super Bowl performer.” Or a combination of both. And then you try to get bingo, and reward yourself.And this year, I was sort of feeling like, ooh, that feels a little more fun. Because I have some things that I wanted to put on my in/out list that don’t really fit. Like, getting a tattoo, or visiting my sister—you know, stuff like that is a little more concrete and bingo card-ish.VirginiaOkay, well you decided it was an in and out episode, though. So that’s what I’ve come prepared to discuss.CorinneI’ve still come prepared to discuss in and outs! I just wanted to present the bingo card as a concept.VirginiaWe’re noting that we are aware of it in the zeitgeist—at least Corinne is. And I am now aware of it, so I appreciate that.CorinneYeah, and if ins/outs feels bad to you, then you could do bingo. Or you could do nothing.VirginiaThis may just be where my brain is on this particular day, but the whole making a grid of five squares is like sounding hard and sort of like math homework. And I’m like, no, no, don’t make me do it. But I might feel differently another day.CorinneI would lose it. Like, where would I keep it? Because I don’t know how to do that in my notes app.VirginiaI mean, I had to text you and be like, “How do we make a table in the notes app?” So this is where I’m starting.Alright, Corinne, kick us off. Give us your first.CorinneWell, as you might expect, I have a lot of ins and outs that are somewhat clothes related. So, IN for me is wearing one thing over and over again. OUT is buying multiples of the exact same thing. That’s something I’m really trying to let go of this year.VirginiaAs I’m wearing a sweater right now, which I own in four colors, I really respect that. Because you don’t ever like the thing in the multiple colors the same way. It’s very rare.CorinneI feel like we’ve talked about how this often doesn’t work. So I’m going to try and be aware of that. And I will say, I’ve already been tempted. As I was writing about the stuff I wore on my road trip, I was like, dang, I should really just buy another pair of those Universal Standard cargo jeans because I like them so much.This Christmas was a particularly exciting one for me because I have a new nephew! And it was my first time getting to meet him, plus my first trip to Oregon, where my sister lives. The drive from New Mexico is about 19 hours, which I did over the course of 3 days / 2 nights (one short day and two longer…VirginiaYou do.CorinneBut I’m trying not to.VirginiaSo you’re referring to not buying multiples of the same exact item. Like, not just “Oh, I’m going to get the sweater in three colors.” But like, you would be tempted to buy two of the same sweater in the same color, if you liked it.CorinneYes. I have this striped shirt from Target that I like, and I have two green ones and one blue one. Granted, I think they cost $10, but do I really need two of the exact same green striped shirt? Because I also have other striped shirts, you know? And then I’m trying to use this app Indyx to keep track of my closet. And I’m like, how do I even put in two of the exact same green shirt?VirginiaYeah, that’s confusing. I mean, I love a uniform, so I admit I fall for the multiples concept. I have my Beyond Yoga joggers in three colors, and I just rotate through them all week long in the winter. But I have definitely been burnt by this rule as well. So I agree it could be out, or at least heavy reflection before committing to something in multiples.CorinneYeah, I think it’s also way easier to buy the multiples of a thing that’s really cheap. I’m doing this at Target and Old Navy, you know? And then that doesn’t feel good.VirginiaYeah, The Beyond Yoga joggers are an investment. I bought one pair and was wearing them constantly and then built up the collection when they go on sale. It’s a little different.CorinneWhat’s on your list?VirginiaOkay, I’ll do a clothing one, too. IN for me is bootcut pants. And I feel like this is going to be controversial, but OUT for me is the wide-cropped Colette pants that everybody loves and that I loved like three months ago, but I don’t love anymore.Now, I am open to that changing in the summer. I really feel like for me, a wide legged crop pant is a warm weather style. I need to treat them like shorts. I cannot crack the boot styling with them. The boot and sock styling, I cannot crack it. I just feel like a crazy art teacher, and not in an aesthetic choice way. Just in a what happened way, when I get dressed in it.But I have been wearing some boot cut pants, also from Beyond Yoga. And I’m like, why did we banish this trend for so long? They’re kind of cute and comfy. I don’t know, I like them.CorinneThat’s exciting. And so bootcut—they’re touching your shoes?VirginiaThey are, yes. They touch my shoes. They are fitted through the thigh, and then there’s a slight flare, but not all the way to full flare. And they look cute with running shoes. And they also look good with a boot—like a chunky boot or probably any boot. I mean, these are leggings materials, so I don’t wear them with a dressy boot. That feels odd to me. But a casual boot. But I am now like, do I want some nice black pants that are a bootcut?CorinneOr jeans?VirginiaI haven’t tried bootcut jeans—I mean, in this millennia, obviously. I wore them plenty in the 90s, but I am like, oh, a high waisted bootcut jean is interesting to me. So TBD on that. But that’s where I am on pants right now, which is a new place.CorinneThat’s cool. Are you going to get rid of the Colette ones? Or seeing what happens?VirginiaI’m going to hold on to them for the warmer weather. I have them in denim. And I thought they were going to go through the fall/winter, and they are not. But I’m going to put them over in my shorts pile and treat them like a summer clothing item. I think that’s what they are for me. At least bare ankles weather, which, we’re recording this in 12 degrees in New York right now. So it is not bare ankles weather. So that may be heavily influencing my pants feelings at the moment.What’s next for you?CorinneOkay, my next one is kind of a response to some events, so I’ll just say that. Okay, IN: Bird watching. OUT: TikTok.VirginiaAmazing.CorinneJust for the record, Tiktok will not be out if it doesn’t get banned.VirginiaBut you are making your peace with that possibility.CorinneIf it does get banned, I’m replacing it with bird watching.VirginiaWell, my next one is very related. We’re really in sync here. IN for me is Bird Buddy, which is my new video bird feeder. And OUT for me is Instagram.So I now am like, oh, do I need to get you a Bird Buddy? Because let me explain to you what is so great about this. It’s a little bird feeder with a video camera in it, and it connects to an app on your phone. So not only do they send you photos when birds land on the feeder, so you get an exciting notification every now and then, it also has a livestream!So instead of scrolling Instagram, I can livestream my bird feeders and it is the most soothing thing ever, Corinne. I’m just like, oh, nothing’s happening. Oh, here’s a chickadee. Okay, nothing’s happening now. Oh, here’s a nuthatch.CorinneIN: bird media. OUT: social media.VirginiaAs people who read the newsletter know, I took a three week Instagram break over Christmas, and I was like, oh, I think my brain is so much happier. So now I’m trying a thing where, since I have to go on Instagram for work to post about the newsletter or whatever, I download the app, post, answer a few DMS, delete the app. And this is what I’m trying this week. We’ll see. I am really interested in less Instagram time for me. Tiktok is not my challenge. I never got hooked into it. But I think birds are the thing to replace this stuff with. I think we’re really onto something! And I’m just saying, a bird app really helps.CorinneYeah, that does sound cool. The Merlin bird app has been a Butter for me before, and I got a pair of binoculars for Christmas.VirginiaOoh, delightful.CorinneGoing to try to be using the binoculars.VirginiaYeah, yeah. Are you going out bird watching in places or backyard bird watching?CorinneYou know, I haven’t gone yet. But that’s on my goals. That would be on my bingo card.VirginiaTo go on a bird watch.CorinneTo go bird watching. I also weirdly have a lot of friends here who are really into bird watching, so I’m hoping one of them will take me under their wing.VirginiaI noticed the bird humor there. We’re going to go past that, but that did happen. But if they don’t take you under their wing, come to New York and my mother will take you bird watching. Bird watching is, I would say, conservatively, 70 percent of my mother’s personality. It is her deep passion, her retirement hobby, calling, what have you. She does it all the time. So she’s also on the live stream. Oh! I can add you to my Bird Buddy!CorinneOh yeah! Because I think my dog will chase the birds away if I get a feeder for my yard.VirginiaOkay, I will add you when we are done recording so you can check out the live stream whenever you want and get the notifications. Also, to be clear, it’s actually not my Bird Buddy. I gave it to my 11 year old for Christmas, and she does also really love it. And there’s a thing where you can name the frequent visitor birds. She’s naming them. So I got it for her, because she’s always loved birds, and now I’m totally hooked.Well. That was like 90 minutes on birds, but that feels right.Give us another one.CorinneOkay, my next one is: IN for me, decluttering. OUT for me, organizing.VirginiaOkay, say more, because how are they not the same thing?CorinneWell, I feel like I had this revelation last year (thanks to this post) where I was, like, before I can do any organizing, I actually just need to get rid of some stuff. Like, it’s like, it’s just never going to stay organized if—VirginiaIf there’s too much?CorinneI need to just have less stuff. I’m not ever going to be a minimalist. But before I’m organizing, I need to be letting some stuff go.VirginiaSo organizing is out for you, but maybe not out forever?CorinneIt’s not that being organized is out. It’s organizing is not a solution to having too much stuff, I guess.VirginiaYeah, it’s like, maybe you’ll revisit that concept if you do pare down the stuff to the point where some system of organization can contain it. But currently that is not an option.CorinneRight. And it’s like that thing where you buy the containers for your pantry, rather than first you need to get rid of all the stuff that’s expired.VirginiaTotally, totally, yes.CorinneThat’s a conceptual one, you know?VirginiaIt is high concept, but I’m here for it.This is maybe also going to be a little controversial. IN for me is baking cookies in my air fryer. OUT for me—but trust me, controversial, at least locally in my house—are Tate’s cookies.CorinneOh, wow. I’m obsessed with Tate’s cookies.VirginiaSo is my seven year old. We go through conservatively two bags a week, and I think I get to eat one of them. One cookie, to be clear.CorinneThey have the crunch level of potato chips. It’s…
Full show notes at the publisherWelcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! It's time for your January Extra Butter!
Today, we’re tackling two big topics:
1. Can you do a diet-y thing and still be an anti-diet advocate?
2. And can Corinne and Virginia divest from Amazon for one month?
(Or is that…also kind of diet-y???)
If you are already an Extra Butter subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Substack. To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.
Otherwise, to hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to join Extra Butter. It's just $99 per year, and is the hands down best way to keep Burnt Toast an ad- and sponsor-free space.
PS. Don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy nowfrom Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!)
Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.
CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is byFarideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.
EPISODE CREDITS
Co-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Producer: Kim Baldwin.
Logo design: Deanna Lowe.
Theme Song: Farideh.
Video Editor: Elizabeth Ayiku
Audio Engineer: Tommy Harron
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Support the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders.
Thanks for listening and supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
You’re listening to Burnt Toast!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and we’re dropping in today with your Burnt Toast Podcast Year In Review.Don’t forget! Burnt Toast subscriptions are 20% off right now — but that deal ends tomorrow night. Don’t miss it!And if you haven’t donated to our NAAFA fundraiser yet, we could really use your help funding fat.You can always listen to our episodes right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts!The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is byFarideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.---Episode 174 TranscriptVirginiaIt has been a really great year for the podcast, wouldn’t you agree, Corinne?CorinneI would agree.VirginiaYes. I don’t know that we celebrated this properly at the time, but a few months ago, we actually passed 1 million downloads this year, which is wild to me.CorinneHonestly, I can’t think about that too hard.VirginiaThen I will not tell you that we are now at 1.32 million, as of this recording.CorinneMy gosh! It’s wild.VirginiaI know it’s really cool. I feel super proud of the podcast. I love making it with you.CorinneSo we are going to take this opportunity to chat about listeners’ five favorite episodes of the year—plus the least popular episode!VirginiaThe poor, unloved episode.Before we dive in, I feel like I need to own up that this is a very imperfect science I used to rank the episodes. Since we do a mix of paywalled and unpaywalled episodes, I can’t just go by total download numbers. That’s because the paywalled episodes—Corinne, this will be reassuring to you, as someone who’s primarily on paywalled episodes—have lower number of downloads on these. So the million downloads is not all you.CorinneYeah. And it’s a million downloads across all episodes, right?VirginiaYes. This is episode 174 so I think that number, the 1.3 million, is like, current to 170 or something like that.But I did look at which episodes were downloaded the most for the year, and then I also looked at which episodes the paywall was most effective—meaning that you all paid to listen. Because that tells us a lot about is this episode striking a nerve so much that you’re like, “yes, I will pay $7 or for Extra Butter folks, $99 to listen to this episode.” So I think that’s pretty indicative of its popularity.CorinneIt’s always fun to see what people are excited about. And where we sometimes fail with writing headlines.VirginiaWe work so hard on the headlines, and sometimes I think we’ve really nailed it and then we have not at all.I will also say I’m exempting from the data last week’s episode, as of this recording. The Tyranny of the Millennial Camisole episode came out last week. It’s not doing great, but it’s only had a few days and I don’t feel it’s fair to judge it yet! But you all should go listen to it, because it’s such a good episode.I feel that people are missing out by not hearing us discuss camisoles and horizontal stripes and whatever else we talked about in that episode.The Burnt Toast PodcastThe Tyranny of the Millennial CamisoleVirginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay·December 5, 2024Why everything you learned about "dressing for your belly" is trash.Read full storyCorinneIt’s about a lot more than just camisoles! Although camisoles were a big part.VirginiaThey were and I think maybe in my headline writing, I over-emphasized that. I apologize, but if you’ve ever worn Spanx, that episode is for you.2024’s Least Popular Podcast Episode!CorinneOkay, here we go. We are starting with the least popular episode. This is the one that has the fewest downloads and had the fewest people paying to listen.The Burnt Toast PodcastFatphobic Roller Coasters and Fatphobic SocksVirginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay·July 25, 2024You’re listening to Burnt Toast!Read full storyDo you remember this episode?VirginiaI mean, I’ll admit I had to open it up and be like, which episode was this?CorinneOh, interesting. It’s from July of this year.VirginiaDo we think everyone was just on summer vacation?CorinneIt’s definitely possible.VirginiaJuly is, historically, usually a pretty low month overall for newsletters and podcasts in general, I think because of summer travel schedules.CorinneBut I will say—the question that the headline is referring to, the fatphobic roller coaster question, was memorable for me.VirginiaYeah, no, absolutely. It was from a woman who was going to amusement parks and feeling really sad she couldn’t ride on roller coasters.CorinneIt was a good question.VirginiaI think our answer was also pretty good. Folks can click through and listen to that. I think maybe the headline is a little niche? If you haven’t currently struggled with roller coasters or socks, that might be why it didn’t speak to you.But I also want to say: If dismantling anti-fatness is important to you, these kind of mundane issues are the work. It’s not always the sexy stuff. Sometimes it is totally roller coasters and socks. Also Corinne on socks is just a great rant, guys.CorinneOh, my God.VirginiaThat’s also worth listening to!CorinneWell, yeah, I also think if you like the episodes where there are deeper questions and we’re thinking about the nuance of fatphobia and what do we give up when we decide to stop dieting. I think this is good one, and you might want to listen if you missed it.VirginiaYeah, agreed, agreed. And we’re not judging you, but a little bit we are, that you blew past some of our finest work.Okay, let’s now go through what you guys did like, and we’ll go from least to most, right?Top 5 Most Popular Episodes of 2024CorinneWe’re going from least most popular to most most popular.So the Number 5 Most Popular Episode is: Did Virginia get divorced over butter?The Burnt Toast PodcastDid Virginia Get Divorced Over Butter?Corinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith·June 13, 2024Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!Read full storyCorinneHow do you feel about your divorce being one of the most popular episodes?VirginiaI feel zero surprise about it, and I am not going to answer that question here. People can listen to the episode and find out, what I think about it.CorinneIt’s another good episode. What else did we talk about in that episode?VirginiaWe talked also a lot about how the newsletter works.CorinneThe making of the sausage, how the sausage is made.VirginiaWe did talk about the weirdness of the Internet having a parasocial relationship with one’s personal life, so if that’s an interesting topic, it’s pretty juicy.And people have told us they really like the process stories. People are interested in how we make the podcast and the newsletter. I think I’m always interested in that for other people.Leave a comment4. Can I want to lose weight for a good reason?The Burnt Toast Podcast"Can I Want to Lose Weight for a Good Reason?"Corinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith·March 21, 2024You’re listening to Burnt Toast!Read full storyCorinneThis is another, like, mail baggy episode. And I do think that question is kind of perennially interesting.VirginiaIt’s definitely another nuanced and chewy question, which we really love to do. But there are some other lighter questions in that episode: Is it okay to feed your children paleo waffles? My thoughts on single mom travel. Are there any comfortable jeans?CorinneThe third most popular episode—which I’m actually a tiny bit surprised about. I thought, honestly, it would be higher—was:3. When Fat Influencers Get Thinner.The Burnt Toast PodcastWhen Fat Influencers Get ThinnerCorinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith·February 8, 2024Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!Read full storyVirginiaOh yeah, this was a juicy one.CorinneThis is one where we talked about fat influencers losing weight because of Ozempic.VirginiaI wonder if it would have been even higher if we had name-checked somebody in the headline.CorinneMaybe?VirginiaThat’s something—as we’ll see when we get to number one—that is sometimes effective. But it’s tricky. I think one thing we’ve realized about the podcast is that y’all really like us doing criticism and analysis of Internet culture as it intersects with diet culture and anti-fatness. So there are quite a few influencer episodes that have done well. But because Internet culture is as vast as it is, often these people are kind of niche. If you’re not already following plus size influencers, or you’re not already following kid food influencers or whatever, you might not know the specific players.So I think that’s why we didn’t include the names. Because we were like, will everyone know these people?CorinneAnd also this episode wasn’t just about one person, it was about a wider cultural phenomenon.VirginiaYes. It was the trend of influencers using Ozempic or Wegovy to lose weight, and suddenly, kind of radically changing the way they talk about weight and body acceptance and health journeys.CorinneThis is one of the episodes I was most stressed about recording, just because it feels so hard to get right. I remember when it came out, I was just like, oh, I kind of hope no one listens.VirginiaUnfortunately, many people listened. Thousands of people listened, Corinne.But what I always want to push back on is that the scolding we always get is “you’re tearing down other women,” or “you’re being mean girls.” And I think that is actually a very anti-feminist understanding of this work. We have to hold other women accountable when they are not being allies to other women and otherwise marginalized folks.And specifically, this episode—and I think pretty much all our influencer episodes—focus on white ladies with a lot of privilege who are not using that privilege responsibly. That criticism is really important right now. And it’s not being a mean girl, it’s being a cultural critic and someone who analyzes diet culture and is able to identify it. And sometimes women create diet culture. So we have to say that.But I get why you were nervous about it. People are going to be meaner to me than to you, though, if it helps. You’re the more likable one!CorinneOh, my God. I don’t actually remember there being a lot of pushback after that episode came out. But maybe you got all of it.VirginiaI don’t either but I also don’t go on Reddit very often.CorinneOh, yeah, no, me neither. At least not for that.VirginiaThat’s a self-care measure for us. We will not be doing that, and you don’t need to send us anything you find there!Okay, the next two are kind of like one and two. You can make arguments for which is one and which is two. But what I’m calling number 2 was our far and away most downloaded episode of the year:2. Is “Mom Rage” Actually “Marriage Rage?”The Burnt Toast PodcastIs "Mom Rage" Actually "Marriage Rage?"Virginia Sole-Smith and lyz·February 29, 2024You’re listening to Burnt Toast!Read full storyThis was my interview with Lyz Lenz about her new book, This American Ex-Wife. It has almost 28,000 downloads, which is easily 10,000 downloads more than a free episode usually gets. So it was off to the races.CorinneWow. It was a great episode.VirginiaIt was a great episode! I mean, it definitely also touched a nerve. I think the comment section got kind of spicy. Anytime we do divorce and marriage topics, we hear from people who really like their marriages and feel personally attacked.CorinneTotally makes sense.VirginiaAnd I’m not saying they need to get divorced, but they sometimes seem to think that’s what we’re saying? Butlyzis great, and it is a really fantastic conversation.And it’s interesting too, because, you know, I first had Lyz on the podcast to talk about diet culture and divorce well before my own divorce. And then she came back, and we were two divorced ladies together. It was kind of a fun little evolution.CorinneI love that. And the number one most popular episode of the year is…1. The Curious Evolution of Emily OsterThe Burnt Toast PodcastThe Curious Evolution of Emily OsterVirginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay·November 14, 2024Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! This month we’re talking about Emily Oster—and her evolving views on kids, weight and health.Read full storyVirginiaDrumroll for that. This one really blew up. The free preview for this has also over 25,000 downloads. The full paywalled episode is less, but it did convert a ton of people who wanted to hear the whole thing. And that is again, above average numbers for us.CorinneYeah, that’s also really interesting, because that one is from just last month. Whereas the last two were from February.VirginiaYes. I mean, usually the older an episode is, the more downloads it has, because new people discovering the podcast often go back and download old episodes. But Emily Oster was an immediate hit.And despite everything I said about feeling very strongly that we are not being mean girls, and we are culture critics, and this is valid work— this was the one I was the most nervous about.CorinneWell, and you know her.VirginiaI have a lot of respect for Emily. But there have been some weird right turns taken, and I felt it was important to talk about it. So that is all in that episode.CorinneI’m kind of surprised that the Kids Eat In Color episode isn’t on here.The Ballerina Farm of Kid Food InstagramCorinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith·March 7, 2024Read full storyVirginiaIf we were only going to do top 5 paywalled episodes, it would have been number five.CorinneOh, gotcha.VirginiaThat is another good one. But since I wanted to make sure to include at least one of the free ones as well, I did some very scientific number crunching… in the 10 minutes before we recorded this episode.CorinneAre there any episodes you’re surprised aren’t in the top five?VirginiaI don’t think so. I mean, I’ve been tracking all the way along that this influencer analysis thing was really taking off. And two divorce things on this list doesn’t surprise me at all, because that’s been a huge driver of engagement.I’m definitely sad for fatphobic roller coasters being the least popular episode. That’s where I think the heart of this work is. And then the more gossipy topics like public figures and divorce—that’s what gets the clicks and the downloads. So the cynical journalist in me is like, well, of course, But we’re not going to stop doing the fat phobic roller coaster episodes.CorinneYeah, I think they’re super important.VirginiaWe really need them. So I encourage everyone: If you love an Emily Oster type episode, please go listen to that one too. Because it’s all part of the work.CorinneIt’s really fun to answer listener questions too.VirginiaYes. I guess the less cynical part of me understands, though—because I think the mailbag question episodes are really fun but they are more random. So if you’re a newer listener, they feel a little inside baseball. It’s you and me hanging out and chatting, and it feels like we’re having a conversation with all the Burnt Toasties, which I love. But I can get why they’re harder to break into. So that’s something we might think about? How to make them more accessible?CorinneI think it’s also harder to write a hooky headline for those episodes. If it’s five different topics, then what do you put up top that will get people to listen?VirginiaThat is always a little bit of an experiment. How to frame it exactly? Maybe we have to make sure to include an influencer question in those, just to get it in the headline. I’m sorry it’s clickbait, but it’s what you all respond to!ButterCorinneLet’s do the the last butter of 2024! No pressure.VirginiaThat does feel like pressure, ri…
Full show notes at the publisherIt’s time for your December Indulgence Gospel.
Today’s episode is both holiday and sex-themed, which seems right! We’re getting into:
️ How diet culture and anti-fatness show up during the holiday season. Comments from relatives! Fitness equipment as gifts! Matching family PJs! Etc.
️ Our NEW Ask Corinne segment, where Corinne answers your fat sex and dating questions, like: What do you do when certain positions just don’t work for your body?
To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber.
EPISODE CREDITS
Co-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Producer: Kim Baldwin.
Logo design: Deanna Lowe.
Theme Song: Farideh.
Video Editor: Elizabeth Ayiku
Audio Engineer: Tommy Harron
Follow us on social!
Virginia is on Instagram and Threads as @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.
Corinne is on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay and on Patreon at Big Undies.
Support the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders.
Thanks for listening and supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
Today Virginia is chatting with Anna Maltby. Anna is a health journalist, editor, content strategist, personal trainer, and author of the newsletter How to Move. Anna also created Pilates For Abortion Funds, a monthly online class that has raised about $30,000 for abortion funds since July 2022. She has been an ACE-certified personal trainer since 2015, and a certified mat pilates instructor since 2021. She’s also a certified prenatal and postpartum exercise specialist. Anna lives in Brooklyn with her husband, two kids, and two extremely cute cats.Anna was previously a guest on one of Burnt Toast’s most popular ever episodes, The Myth of Visible Abs. What’s so great about Anna—and what makes her different from a lot of fitness writers and personal trainers out there—is that she’s so smart about bodies, she’s truly anti-diet and size neutral as a fitness professional…and, she’s been in the belly of the beast. Anna worked in women’s magazines with me long enough to know all the diet culture tricks. So she’s one of my favorite people to talk fitness with, because she can dissect what is marketing, what is diet culture, and what is actually maybe useful for your body.Two content warnings for today:1. We are going to talk about specific forms of exercise. This will always be through a weight neutral lens, but if you’re recovering from an eating disorder or just otherwise in a place where exercise is not serving you, please take care.2. CW for Butter, because we ended up talking quite a lot about toilets! And while I feel it’s all incredibly practical information and you’re going to thank me for my great Butter recommendation this week, I do realize that toilet conversation is not for everyone. It’s usually not for me! So I get it! You’ve been warned.To tell us YOUR thoughts, and to get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber — subscriptions are just $7 per month! —to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. And don’t forget to check out our Burnt Toast Podcast Bonus Content! Disclaimer: You’re listening to this episode because you value my input as a journalist who reports on these issues and therefore has a lot of informed opinions. Neither my guest today nor I are healthcare providers, and this conversation is not meant to substitute for medical or therapeutic advice.FAT TALK is out in paperback! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Follow Virginia on Instagram, Follow Corinne @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and subscribe to Big Undies.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism. Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.Episode 171 TranscriptVirginiaLast time you were on the podcast, we talked specifically about how diet culture has co-opted ab workouts. This was inspired by a viral Twitter thread you wrote back then—back when we were on Twitter, back when we called it Twitter—where you really laid out how core muscles are super important, but the way the fitness industry markets workouts just completely misses the point.So can you walk us through that a little bit? Because every time I even bring that up with people minds are blown.AnnaThere’s so much here, but I think the TLDR is that abs—flat abs, defined abs, visible abs—have a real hold on us as a culture. They have forever, unfortunately, and diet culture knows that. They’re going to use this promise of visible abs to get you to buy a bunch of stuff which is sketchy at best. Because for the vast majority of people those visible, defined abs are not a realistic, or at least a sustainable, goal.What’s frustrating for me is that all of that is kind of a distraction from the many ways in which having strong and functional abs is great for you and can help you move and feel better. So I find it self-defeating. Visible ab talk is feeding into diet culture, and it’s not supporting us in any way.VirginiaIt really is wild that this very specific aesthetic trait—the ability to have visible stomach muscles, which only certain body types are going to be able to pull off even with a lot of effort—that has become our focus. Sometimes I just have to take a minute and think: Why do we care so much about how someone’s stomach muscles look like? It’s really weird.AnnaFor some reason Botox and forehead wrinkles are popping into my head. This is a bad metaphor because your forehead doesn’t really do anything for you. But what if your forehead had some amazing function, and we were distracting ourselves with the aesthetics of it by spending all this money on Botox. It’s adding this whole additional layer of functional purpose on top of the ridiculousness of the diet salesmanship of it.VirginiaYou revisited this whole conversation recently onHow to Movewhich I want everyone to subscribe to, because it’s fantastic. You wrote a piece that was in conversation with a piece by another fitness writer we both like, Casey Johnston, who wrote a piece calledthe core workout is a scam.Casey pointed out that even major fitness influencers on Tiktok will talk about how they make content with ab exercises that they actually don’t even do themselves, because they know that abs, abs, abs is what gets engagement. This brought me back to some of our lady mag days. I don’t know about you, Anna, this felt familiar to some of those workouts that we put on magazine covers.How to MoveAre ab exercises bad, actually?As a society, we’ve been sold a hell of a bill of goods about the abdominal muscles…Listen nowa year ago · 14 likes · 3 comments · Anna MaltbyAnnaI love Casey. I really admire her work, and I think she’s so right that influencers and whoever else is trying to sell you workouts, they definitely post this kind of like core workout or ab workout very intentionally. It’s not necessarily that it’s a good workout. It’s not that it’s what the influencer does. It’s not that it’s going to achieve that aesthetic.It’s that you’re looking at this influencer, you see their body, you see them post this thing, and you’re like, “Ooh, if I do that thing, I’ll get that body.” That’s definitely a scam. I think it was kind of wild to see the influencer that Casey included in her piece, she had posted on Tiktok just saying outright, “I used to be this very toxic fitness influencer. I posted these ab workouts. It was completely a fake. I never did it. I only posted it for engagement.” It definitely reminded me of those kind of get ripped abs, toned core in 10 days—those kinds of cover lines that we used to write at magazines.VirginiaThe workouts we would write that nobody was doing.AnnaExactly, and it’s so similar because you would look at this beautiful, thin, toned, cover model next to these cover lines. Did that model ever do that workout?VirginiaNo, absolutely not. Not even the model in the shoot for that workout! Other than when she was posing for the photos.AnnaYes. She would show up on set looking like that. She would leave set looking like that. And she would never do that workout ever again.VirginiaIt’s just wild. I hope that’s the kind of thing that people know, but I don’t think it is. It’s hard, when you look at this content, to separate the myth from reality with what you’re seeing. Even for those of us in the industry, it’s hard not to see those workouts and think, oh, okay, what is that? What works for that? It’s so easy to get sucked in.AnnaYes, I think that we all have that instinct to think that’s going to work. And not all of us have this sort of baked-in layer of skepticism or or even knowledge that that’s not what’s actually going on.So I thought Casey’s piece was really interesting. This idea that ab workouts are a scam. She’s a big fan, of course, of heavy lifting and barbell focused workouts, and I definitely am, too. I love barbells. I love lifting as heavy as I can, although I personally don’t use barbells as much as I would really like to these days. And Casey suggests that if you’re doing those kinds of workouts, you’re getting plenty of core work.I think that is probably true. If you’re doing a really heavy deadlift with a barbell, your core is working really hard to support your spine during that movement, even just carrying those those plates and lifting them up to put them on the bar, the twisting, all of that is really amazing, functional core work. But I also think most people are not doing those kinds of workouts.VirginiaThat’s not a very accessible workout for a lot of people.AnnaEven if you are doing strength exercises with lighter weights at home, you’re probably getting some core work as well. But it’s not necessarily all the core work you could ever need in the world.So I’m kind of thinking of Casey’s piece with a little bit of caveat. It’s like, yes, if you’re doing all that stuff, you’re probably golden. Probably most people are not doing that stuff. Probably you could benefit from more.And I also think that even if you are someone doing a heavy barbell workout, there’s still a chance you could benefit from a little bit of additional core work. And I’m not talking about the scammy influencer 20 minute ab workouts. I’m talking about some very functional, core focused strengthening movements which can also help make your lifts better.SO I take it with a grain of salt. Basically anything that bills itself as a core workout you could, could probably raise an eyebrow to. But I don’t think it’s true that core exercises across the board are worthless.VirginiaNo, it’s that they’ve been marketed for the wrong purpose. They have lots of value in terms of building functional core strength, but they’re sold to us as weight loss, get a visible six pack, etc. And so the scam is how they put all your focus on that aesthetic goal, which is going to be out of reach no matter how many core exercises you do, versus the strength building part and the function part.Let’s drill into that a little bit more. What do you think is the value of core workouts? And on behalf of of my people who have always hated core exercises: What are some ways you can reframe how you think about core strength so it doesn’t feel like, Oh God, that’s the part of the workout I hate the most.AnnaYes, totally. So what is it for? I’ll just quote Casey’s piece, because I thought this was really smart.The whole point of a core is that it needs to be able to connect and coordinate the other parts of the body in order to be effective. Cores can’t learn to be the solid, coordinating central conduit for movement by doing, for instance, a five-minute plank alone.So it’s all part of a system. The point of a core is not just to be strong in isolation. It’s to be strong in a way that supports movement throughout the rest of your body, whether it’s laying down in a bed and then getting back up out of that bed, or picking up something heavy, or holding something heavy in one hand and something light in the other hand, and not getting completely out of whack and of balance.Whether you’re building that strength by doing a heavy barbell workout like Casey likes to do, or something more like Pilates, which I teach, we’re always loading your core by moving the extremities in different ways. Those are both great examples of this whole thing working as a system.VirginiaAs you’re saying that, I’m realizing how much the “core in isolation” is, again, part of diet culture. Because that’s about the aesthetics and not about the function.AnnaExactly. It doesn’t make sense to do a workout like Pilates all the time. It makes sense to do it maybe once or twice a week as a foundation to the other things that you’re doing, because if you can make your core, your pelvic floor, your back muscles work really functionally in tandem with the rest of your body, then the other kinds of movements that you’re doing throughout the week will be easier. And that’s movement whether it’s a workout or dancing or walking, or I have a client who owns a bookstore, so she’s picking up heavy boxes, putting things away on a shelf, and reaching and taking things up and down stairs. It’s going to support all of those other things. So it’s a really helpful thing to do. But it’s not that you need to do it every single day, you know?I will say, though, when I see something like “core workouts are a scam,” I do kind of cringe about that a little bit. Because there are definitely lots of people who don’t enjoy a core workout, and it’s not their thing—no shade at all. But there are also people who really love the 20 minute abs class at their gym. Do they need to be doing that? Is it completely necessary? Maybe not, but if they really like it, and it gets them active, and it gets them feeling good in their body— keep doing it. You don’t have to stop.VirginiaWe’re not here to shame anyone who loves a 20-minute ab class. I am fascinated by you, but I respect that you have that preference.AnnaI just don’t want to make people feel bad about what they’re doing, because the most important thing is to do something right? We want to help people find something that you can do and that you can sustain. So let’s open your mind to other ways of moving that might be supportive in other ways. But let’s also not get disheartened because we’re seeing that this is not “the perfect way”to exercise or whatever.VirginiaTotally. And I’ll also just share, as someone who does identify as hating core work, I have come to appreciate it so much more through your workouts and through talking to you about it, because it’s made me realize how much the “I hate core workouts” came from knowing I’m never going to have the visible six pack. Being able to put that down means now I do notice, ohhh, when I get my core properly engaged, my back hurts so much less. Taking the giant bag of dog food in from the curb feels less painful. I get off the floor a lot more easily after giving my seven-year-old a bath. it’s these small things that are really not that small, actually.AnnaYeah, I couldn’t agree more. It’s almost about safety in your body, right? I’m capable of doing these things. I don’t have to feel fear around movement. I’m comfortable moving throughout the day. There’s so much to be said for that. You say they’re they’re small things, but they’re not really small.I really want to encourage people to get to know how their body responds to exercise because of all this noise about aesthetics, we haven’t been trained to notice these more internal or intrinsic kind of things, but if you can tap into functional changes, or just how you feel moving through the day. Are you waking up a little less creaky? Are you able to pick that thing up, or are you able to bend down into the bath more comfortably?VirginiaShampooing a fast-moving seven-year-old is quite the core workout, in fact.AnnaWrestle them into their jackets and all that stuff. This goes back to the central question of why is the myth of visible abs so frustrating? There are so many other things that not just abs, but a functional and strong body, can do for you. To me, those things are better motivators.I exercise also because of back pain. What got me started on exercise, and got me sticking with exercise, was that I was throwing my back out all the time. And I do that a whole lot less if I’m active regularly. And that’s a really good motivator, and it is ach…
Full show notes at the publisherWelcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! It's time for your December Extra Butter!
Today, we’re talking about bellies—and how we’ve been taught to dress them. You need this conversation if you have feelings about:
Spanx
Horizontal stripes
The Millennial structured camisole era + long, flowy tops
Always tucking in your shirt/never tucking in your shirt
And so much more.
If you are already an Extra Butter subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon. To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.
Otherwise, to hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to join Extra Butter.
EPISODE CREDITS
Co-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Producer: Kim Baldwin.
Logo design: Deanna Lowe.
Theme Song: Farideh.
Video Editor: Elizabeth Ayiku
Audio Engineer: Tommy Harron
Follow us on social!
Virginia is on Instagram and Threads as @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.
Corinne is on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay and on Patreon at Big Undies.
Support the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders.
Thanks for listening and supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
It’s time for your November Indulgence Gospel. Today, we’re doing an old fashioned mailbag episode for you.
We are going to chat about grocery shopping.
We’re going to talk about what to do if you are “not fat enough” to be in a fat space.
We are going to talk about how to get divorced.
We’re going to talk about a mom who wants to stop her adult daughter from getting diabetes.
And we’re both going to dig into our phones and face up to…just how much time we spend on them and why.
To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber.
EPISODE CREDITS
Co-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Producer: Kim Baldwin.
Logo design: Deanna Lowe.
Theme Song: Farideh.
Video Editor: Elizabeth Ayiku
Audio Engineer: Tommy Harron
Follow us on social!
Virginia is on Instagram and Threads as @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.
Corinne is on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay and on Patreon at Big Undies.
Support the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders.
Thanks for listening and supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! It's time for your November Extra Butter!
This month we’re talking about Emily Oster—and her evolving views on kids, weight and health.
We recorded this before the election. But as we all continue to grapple with how America slid to the right, the story of a public health advocate and scholar who is now aligned with conservative media feels especially timely. That said, we also want to hold space for how much Emily’s work has meant to so many of us (including Virginia!).
If you are already an Extra Butter subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon. To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.
Otherwise, to hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to join Extra Butter.
PS. Don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy nowfrom Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!)
Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.
CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is byFarideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
---
Virginia
EPISODE CREDITS
Co-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Producer: Kim Baldwin.
Logo design: Deanna Lowe.
Theme Song: Farideh.
Video Editor: Elizabeth Ayiku
Audio Engineer: Tommy Harron
Follow us on social!
Virginia is on Instagram and Threads as @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.
Corinne is on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay and on Patreon at Big Undies.
Support the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders.
Thanks for listening and supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
Today Virginia is chatting with Mara Gordon, MD.Dr. Gordon is a family physician on the faculty of Cooper Medical School of Rowan University, as well as a writer, journalist, and contributor to NPR. Dr. Gordon also writes Chief Complaint, about her efforts to make medicine more fat friendly, and help her patients and herself explore body liberation and radical bodily autonomy.In our conversation today, Dr. Gordon and I get into why the healthcare system is set up the way it is, and what we can do to advocate for more weight-inclusive care—even when we’re not seeing weight-inclusive doctors.She also answers your questions about common weight-linked health conditions like acid reflux, sleep apnea, and prediabetes.To tell us YOUR thoughts, and to get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber — subscriptions are just $7 per month! —to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. And don’t forget to check out our Burnt Toast Podcast Bonus Content! Disclaimer: You’re listening to this episode because you value my input as a journalist who reports on these issues and therefore has a lot of informed opinions. Neither my guest today nor I are healthcare providers, and this conversation is not meant to substitute for medical or therapeutic advice.FAT TALK is out! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Follow Virginia on Instagram, Follow Corinne @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and subscribe to Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Farideh.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism. Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.---You’re listening to Burnt Toast!I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and today my guest is Mara Gordon, MD.Dr. Gordon is a family physician on the faculty of Cooper Medical School of Rowan University, as well as a writer, journalist, and contributor to NPR. Dr. Gordon also writesChief Complaint, about her efforts to make medicine more fat friendly, and help her patients and herself explore body liberation and radical bodily autonomy.In our conversation today, Dr. Gordon and I get into why the healthcare system is set up the way it is, and what we can do to advocate for more weight-inclusive care—even when we’re not seeing weight-inclusive doctors.She also answers your questions about common weight-linked health conditions like acid reflux, sleep apnea, and prediabetes.PS. If you enjoy today’s conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack’s Notes, so that’s a super easy, free way to support the show!Episode 167 TranscriptMaraI am a family doctor in practice in Camden, New Jersey. That means I take care of both adults and kids and I practice what I like to call size inclusive medicine. I’m also a writer—and I’ve written a fair amount about my interest in making healthcare more fat friendly. And I’m an advocate for making healthcare a more size inclusive space.VirginiaYou are also part of a new organization that was just launched, Association for Weight and Size Inclusive Medicine, which, as soon as you told me about it, I was like, thank God, this finally exists. MaraWe are so pumped. This organization is called the Association for Weight and Size Inclusive Medicine or AWSIM (pronounced “awesome!”) for short.VirginiaOh, just got the acronym!MaraYou can find us at weightinclusivemedicine.org. Basically we’re a group of physicians, nurse practitioners, and physician assistants who are committed to size inclusive medicine and committed to making healthcare more welcoming place for people who live in bigger bodies. The need for this is just so obvious. Healthcare spaces are ground zero for fatphobia.I think they’re often a lot of people’s origin stories for fat phobia, too, which really disturbs me. Like, “my years of body dysmorphia started with an offhand comment from the pediatrician when I was a kid.” Over and over again, I hear these stories, and it is awful. We need to do better. So AWSIM began as a group of of us who found each other organically online. We’re all over the country, all over the world. Actually, we have some folks in Canada, in South and Central America, but I would say that we’re North America focused for now. We’re trying to build a movement, a professional home for doctors and other healthcare providers who are interested in fighting against fat stigma and making our offices more welcoming spaces.VirginiaThis is so great because one of the questions I’m asked most often is: How do I find a weight inclusive doctor? And there just hasn’t been a place to point people, like an easy answer. And of course, you guys are a new organization. I’m not saying you’re going to solve it for everybody all over the country this minute, but the fact that you are working towards this is really, really thrilling. MaraRight now we’re in our really early stages. I’m actually learning so much from our medical student allies. In particular, Medical Students for Size Inclusivity is a grassroots organization that now has chapters all over the country working to start conversations about size inclusivity at the medical school level.I’m a medical educator. I teach medical students. I love working with them, and MSSI has just done such an amazing job of finding networks, connecting with networks. It’s really community organizing in a digital age, right? They are bringing together a movement of students saying, “Hey professors, you’re doing a terrible job at this. We want better for our education. We want better for our future patients.”We have a lot of MSSI members in AWSIM, which we hope will be their professional home once they become practicing physicians. I gotta give them credit. They’re just leading the way, and I’m learning so much from them. VirginiaThe reader letters that give me the most hope are the ones from medical students. Because I’m just like, okay, if you get it now you’re going to go into healthcare, and there’s going to be more of you guys doing it that way. That’s so encouraging.MaraIt’s awesome. And I think eventually, our goal is to one day have a directory of healthcare providers who identify as size inclusive. We’re a long way off from that. That’s a lot of work. But we hope it’ll be a way to organize and build community. It can feel lonely sometimes, advocating for more fat-friendly health care, just because the dogma is so fatphobic.VirginiaIt’s just so stacked against you.MaraIt is so stacked against us. I think when I started speaking and writing about some of these issues, my fear was always, somebody’s going to call me stupid, right? Like they’re going to say, oh, haven’t you read all of these studies that show the link between BMI and the risk of all these diseases. I think we have a culture of fear and shame around asking new questions in medicine.It’s the fear that you’ll look dumb on rounds, right? Rounds is when all the doctors are standing around, like on House, outside of a patient room, presenting the patient’s case, and everybody chimes in, like, oh, have you heard of this medical study about this? Or, oh, have you thought of this rare disease? In some ways, it’s a great culture, of pushing the team to make sure that we’re doing really, really rigorous science. But there’s also a dark side to it, where we just get really entrenched in dogmatic ways of thinking. There’s always this like, “Oh, you’re dumb. You’re not up to date on the science. You’re not a rigorous scientist,” is always the answer to anything that might question the existing dogma. So it feels great to have a community of support to change that dogma, and trying to question some of the really entrenched ways of thinking in healthcare that are causing a lot of harm to our patients.VirginiaWhat helped you connect these dots? Or what was it for you, that moved you? Because I’m assuming your medical school training was this more traditional, dogmatic model.MaraLike many philosophical shifts, it wasn’t just one moment, right? I definitely trained in an environment that was very much “lose weight, that will solve all your medical problems.” I wish I could say that I have never practiced that way, but I really have. And I think part of my work in exploring some of these issues is acknowledging that I’ve caused a lot of harm in taking that approach over time. I was doing what I was taught to do, which is, “Hey, have you thought about hopping on the treadmill more often, that’ll fix your XYZ problem?” And I started to notice over time that it wasn’t working. I noticed that it wasn’t working at the stated goal of weight loss. It wasn’t seeming to prevent complications. It wasn’t preventing disease. And I could see it really doing harm. I could see people’s faces disengage when I brought up topics of body size or weight. They just wouldn’t come back to see me, right? I could see that I was losing their trust. That was really painful to admit and acknowledge, because that wasn’t why I went to medical school, right? I imagined I’d be a great communicator and my patients would trust me, and we’d have relationships over many years. The fatphobia that I was enacting was not achieving those goals.VirginiaI love though that you noticed that disengagement and thought, Wait, what am I doing that’s contributing to that?” So often what fat folks experience is that if we disengage, the doctor then labels us as noncompliant or hostile. We’re just not trying, we’re not taking it seriously. The fact that you were like, “Oh, wait a second, if the patient is disengaging, how am I losing them?” That’s a really different shift. MaraI didn’t do it alone. I think reading works by fat authors really helped me start to think of these questions in broader ways. Reading the work ofRoxane Gay, and Kiese Laymon, Lindy West—all those books which I read maybe like five, seven years ago started getting me thinking about some of these issues. And I mean, honestly, my own body changing, right? Around pregnancy and childbirth—I have a three year old son—I got fatter. And realizing that the advice I was doling out, I couldn’t take myself. I started to realize maybe the advice is bad. Maybe it’s not me, right? Which is a really profound shift in in thinking that takes time. And it takes thinking about these questions and talking about these questions over and over again.So it’s been a slow, slow process, but it feels really exciting to be part of a community that I hope is really changing things for the better and trying to do good in pretty disastrous healthcare system, in a healthcare system that perpetuates a lot of harm. VirginiaWe can only go up at this point, right?MaraI know. VirginiaSo that’s what you’re not doing anymore in terms of pushing weight loss as a blanket prescription when you’re seeing a patient. What are some other things you do differently now? What does practicing size-inclusive medicine look like?MaraI joke that size-inclusive medicine is basically not yelling at my patients to lose weight. VirginiaI love that. MaraIt’s so basic, and yet, everyone has had an experience with this, right? I always come back to this, too. I have thin friends who tell me, “Oh my gosh, I won’t wear a sweater or boots when I go to the doctor because I don’t want to get weighed and tip over into that 26 BMI and all of a sudden feel that wrath.” Like the reams of paperwork you get that are like, here’s how to lose weight, and your BMI is flashing red in the computer. So at the core, I don’t yell at my patients to lose weight. Reading some of the scientific literature about the inefficacy of diet and exercise for weight loss is what got me interested in this more size inclusive approach. I was like, wow. This thing that I’m doing—counseling my patients to lose weight—isn’t working. That’s really borne out in the literature.Weight counseling intervention in primary care medicine has pretty much zero data to support it. So I was doing this thing that had no evidence base. I would never prescribe a medicine that didn’t work, right? So that’s what got me interested, and I started learning about it. I am a huge fan of exercise. I know that many folks listening to the podcast may find exercise triggering or harmful for whatever reasons, and that’s totally fine. You have no moral obligation to exercise. But I find it really helpful in my own life, and many of my patients find it really helpful in their lives. So what I say now is, “Actually, I don’t care if you lose weight, but I do care that you exercise.” It’s it’s really shifted my focus from a weight goal or a BMI goal, for my patients and for myself, frankly, to what are these healthy behaviors that we can engage in on a regular basis?For most people, that’s regular exercise, sleep, stress reduction. You know, all these things that we think of as really helpful for wellbeing. And now I just don’t care if they make you lose weight, I care that you’re doing them.I think that’s also borne out in the literature. I mean, we really see there is research on this that’s really interesting, which shows that people get cardiovascular benefits and metabolic benefits from regular exercise, even if they don’t lose weight. So I don’t care what the number on the scale is. But let’s talk about these routines you can have in your life, or these medications you can take, frankly, because I do think that access to healthcare. Access to medications is a big part of it for some people.There are these things that you can do on a regular basis to try to achieve whatever feels healthy to you, right? What your definition of of healthy is. VirginiaI would imagine, too, that decoupling exercise from weight loss allows you to talk about exercise in a more nuanced way. Because if we’re assuming the goal of exercise is weight loss, then there’s only one way to exercise, or like a fairly narrow definition. It’s as much cardio as possible, as hard as possible, and always more and more or whatever. This approach would allow you to then talk to people about, what’s doable in your life, and what do you enjoy? If it doesn’t matter whether it makes you lose weight, there are more options on the table, and then there are more ways people move their bodies.MaraI will say, this is something I really struggle with clinically. We have these 20 minute visits. And a lot of my patients are not radicalized towards body acceptance. They are just every day people showing up, making comments on their weight, making comments like, “Oh am I a healthy weight doc? Oh, I gained five pounds, doc.” So it is really challenging. When I say the word exercise, I think a lot of my patients hear weight loss. So part of the work that I’m trying to do is to undo that. VirginiaYeah, that’s tricky.MaraIt’s hard in our tiny little 20 minute visits. But I’m curious to hear from you, though, Virginia. What has helped you start to detangle exercise from weight loss as a goal?VirginiaThat’s a great question. I did have to put exercise down for a few years in order to not do it compulsively. That is part of my history. And running would probably not be prescribed to me, or should not be, given the way I ran in my 20s.MaraRunning is a lot.VirginiaLove it for other people, really not my jam. But anyway, after h…
Full show notes at the publisherToday Virginia is chatting with Amy Palanjian. You probably already know Amy as Yummy Toddler Food, which is her blog/Instagram/Tiktok. She’s also the bestselling author of Dinnertime SOS, and writes a great bi-weekly newsletter called YTF Community, which comes with super helpful meal plans. Some of you may have listened to our old podcast, Comfort Food, or maybe you’ve just heard Amy on her previous appearances on Burnt Toast (one, two and three). But we realized that Amy hasn’t been on the pod since we both got divorced! Obviously a lot in our lives has changed, but specifically, a lot has changed in terms of how we feed our people and how we feed ourselves.So this is an episode about single mom dinner. I think you’ll enjoy it.To tell us YOUR thoughts, and to get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page. If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber — subscriptions are just $7 per month! —to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. And don’t forget to check out our Burnt Toast Podcast Bonus Content! Disclaimer: You’re listening to this episode because you value my input as a journalist who reports on these issues and therefore has a lot of informed opinions. Neither my guest today nor I are healthcare providers, and this conversation is not meant to substitute for medical or therapeutic advice.FAT TALK is out! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Follow Virginia on Instagram, Follow Corinne @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and subscribe to Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is byFarideh.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism. Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.---This transcript contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 166 TranscriptVirginiaAmy, you are here!AmyIt seems like it’s been a long time. We’ve lived a lot of life.VirginiaWere we both married when you were on the podcast last? No, because it was when your book came out.AmyBut nobody knew I wasn’t married anymore. VirginiaOh, you were secret not married.AmyI was going through the process of divorce, and had not yet made it public. VirginiaI think I was out? But you were not. You were still in the divorce closet.Well, we have lived a life. And you are back on the podcast! Do you want to tell folks who you are, in addition to being divorced, and what you do?AmyYes. You guys will quickly learn that Virginia and I have a lot of shorthand, because she’s my best friend. I’m Amy from Yummy Toddler Food. So that is my website, social accounts. I’m also the author of Dinnertime SOS, which is the book we were talking about that came out last year. VirginiaIf you’re not already following Amy, all I can say is you’re not a Millennial Mom because literally all of us follow her. So we’ve been talking about doing this episode for a very long time, ever since we both started eating as single people again. We were like, oh, it’s really different. There’s a lot to say. We have a lot I want to talk about. Before we dive in, I do want us to quickly talk about the phrase “single mom.”Whenever I use it, inevitably someone will —maybe rightfully?— say to me, “I’m not sure you’re allowed to use the phrase single mom.” Because a true “single mom” is someone who has no co-parent whatsoever, no support, and is doing 100 percent of all of the things by themselves.So I’m curious how you feel about that term.AmyI guess when I think of it culturally, I do think that the word is more often used for moms who have full custody of their kids all the time, and they’re legitimately doing it on their own all the time. But I do use it to refer to myself, because I am single and I am a mom, regardless of whether I have custody of my kids. And there is the reality that even when my kids are not physically in my house, or under my supervision, I am still their mom and still often doing mom things. So it feels unnecessarily divisive to have that be so rigid. VirginiaSomeone said to me, “you should say solo parenting.” AmyBut isn’t that when you’re married and your partner leaves for a bit?VirginiaYeah. I don’t want to say solo parenting, because that’s what my married friends say, “oh, I’m solo parenting this weekend,” and that is a totally different situation. You’re solo parenting for two days. You are not in our club.I do have a super-involved co-parent and I’m grateful for that. But still, when I am making dinner for my children in my house, it is just me. So I use it somewhat selectively. I’m fortunate that there is a co-parent, and there are aspects of parenting I do still collaborate on. And there are a lot of pieces of the work of taking care of my kids that I now do 100 percent alone. When I have them, it’s 100 percnt me.So I just wanted us to acknowledge that there are definitely different layers of divorce privilege and single mom privilege. And I want us to acknowledge our privilege as we launch into this conversation. But for the purposes of this episode, we’re going to be talking about feeding our kids by ourselves, and feeding ourselves as single people. And that feels like an allowable use of “single mom” in my book. AmyI also want to say, parenting is hard regardless. And there is this thing that happens where it becomes so quickly a competition of, like, who has it harder? And I really just don’t want that. So I just want to acknowledge it’s hard. VirginiaSomebody who pushed back on me recently, said, “I’m a step-mom and my husband is really involved in the kids, and if his ex was identifying as a single mom, it would be sort of erasing his contributions.” So I hear that, and I don’t want to minimize anyone who’s parenting kids in any capacity, you know? Good job. Way to show up. AmyBut her experience might be different from his. That’s her story.VirginiaI’m curious what listeners will say. I’m sure we’ll get a lot of comments about this piece. Just wanted to put it out there that we are aware this is a loaded term.And I think we both feel we have some claim to this loaded term, and now we are going to proceed with talking about single mom dinners. So there are now two kinds of dinners in our lives. There are the dinners where we are feeding our children and we are the single adults in the house making that happen. And then there are the dinners where we feed only ourselves. Let’s talk about the kids part first. How does that feel different for you now?AmyWell, I think the expectations are simply lower. I didn’t quite realize how much the expectations of what another adult thought dinner should be impacted my mental load. And, you know, I wrote a book about dinner. I thought about dinner a whole lot. VirginiaYou are, I would say, one of our nation’s foremost dinner experts.AmyOnce it was just me making those decisions and taking into account the premises of my kids and myself—it’s easier, I’ll say that. It’s just less complicated.One big difference is I don’t cook meat very often. That was something that was an expectation before as part of “a real dinner.” And so now it’s just looser. I often serve my kids more informal meals. Like last night, I had to make something for work, and so I had the leftovers and it was a form of pizza. And my kids—like this literally is the first time this has happened. They gave me a round of applause. They were like, “round of applause for Mama!” And I was like, what is happening? VirginiaYou won, you won dinner.AmyBecause they just were so delighted. Of course, it ended with, like—I don’t remember what it was. But then I texted you, like, “I will not ramble tomorrow about how much my kids complain about dinner.” VirginiaSo there was a pivot. There was applause and then there was the pivot. The hard pivot into “actually we hate this and everything you stand for.” That makes sense. That sounds familiar.AmyYes. I have put a lot less pressure on dinner, and we eat a lot of the same things. And I think it’s partly because my kids are here every other week. So there’s something to the comfort of having familiar meals and foods. VirginiaYeah, totally. AmyAnd they expect certain things when they’re with me now. And I like that because it’s just easier. So I’m pretty much buying the same groceries and I’m pretty much making the same set of meals with small changes, and I really do not have any concerns about that whatsoever. VirginiaIt has been set in stone almost since the beginning, that the first night they come back from their dad’s, we’re going to have pesto pasta and brownies. That is the meal they want to come back to me for. Which, like, he makes those things, too? But I do think my pesto is really good. And I think that’s a useful touch point for them. Of like, “Okay, we’re back in this house now.” We’re back in this routine, and there’s something expected about the routine here.And, I admit I am sick of eating pesto pasta every Tuesday. I’m over it. But I am continuing to make it because I see how important that is for them. AmyI also will say, I buy a lot more like frozen chicken tenders than ever before in my life, and I eat them when I’m by myself also. VirginiaYou had that great dinner last week. You were like, I’ve never been so proud of a meal I made for myself. And it was chicken tenders and pasta with Rao’s marinara sauce, I think? AmyIt was like a deconstructed chicken parm. It was amazing. VirginiaWell, I made it the next night for me and the kids and it was great because one of my kids doesn’t like pasta with red sauce, but loves chicken tenders, and the other one only eats the pasta, and then I ate everything. I was like, “This is a meal I have been missing from my rotation.”A big shift for me that I think I’m really coming to terms with is, how much work I had put into cooking as a married mother. And people know my backstory, feeding my kid was really hard for the first few years due to medical challenges. So I come into this with a certain amount of baggage. It’s gotten, of course, tremendously easier, but it is still so much freaking work. And, yeah, being able to feel less pressure around how dinner has to look, like dinner capital D dinner. So last night, I ordered sushi for myself. One kid ate leftover pasta, one kid ate microwaved pancakes, and that was dinner. And I threw some fruit on the table. I don’t remember if anyone ate it. I’ve hosted many a 20-person Christmas dinner. I bake really good chocolate chip cookies from scratch. I was the primary cook in my marriage, and I am now the only cook in my house.But what I’ve slowly realized over the past year is that… I don’t like to cook. At least not right now. And it’s feeling entirely possible that I won’t ever like it again?Read full storyAmyI think that what has happened is: All the things that we always said that we believed about dinner are now actually the way that we’re living. VirginiaInteresting.AmyWe weren’t quite fully able to do it before. VirginiaWe weren’t giving ourselves permission before. AmyPart of the reason I was so happy with myself when I made that dinner was because I rarely cook dinner for myself. VirginiaOh yeah, same.AmyI’m able to give myself permission to not work all the time in a way that I haven’t been able to do that before. So I’m happy about that, because, frankly, it’s too much work to cook all day and then have to keep cooking. VirginiaI don’t know how you do it. But, I think you’re right. We were always talking about “it’s okay to make it less work. It’s okay to take shortcuts,” but not always giving ourselves permission. I was very attached to the idea of one family, one meal. Don’t be a short order cook. I thought it represented some kind of failure if I was making something on the side for a kid who didn’t want to eat the main meal. I was definitely dying on that mountain for a long time. But something about removing a person from the table makes it less work for me. I can’t quite understand the math, but it doesn’t feel as hard to be like, “oh, I can just make three quick things that isn’t really cooking” and everyone gets what they want. Versus “Let me try to make one full meal, somehow needing it all to slot together like a jigsaw puzzle.” Why was I putting that pressure on myself? AmyI mean, I still consider myself to be making one meal, but I think I just care a lot less about the components. VirginiaThey don’t have to go together so well.AmyOne of the meals I make almost every week that the kids are with me, is—I mean, this is going to sound so simple. It’s some form of breaded chicken in the air fryer, broccoli, and potatoes. There is nothing special or fancy about any of that, except for the fact that it is a reliable combination of foods that everyone will eat at least two of them. I don’t know that I would have necessarily considered that “dinner enough,” do you know what I mean? VirginiaIt sounds like a very full dinner? Again, my children ate leftover pasta and microwave pancakes while I ordered sushi last night. You had three things that go together! It’s not contradictory to serve potatoes and chicken and broccoli. AmyI’m not saying that it is. I am saying that it is three incredibly simple things. VirginiaYou would have felt like you had to dress it up more before?AmyRight. Like, there’s no recipe involved. You’re not going to find that listed anywhere as a dinner idea on the Internet. VirginiaI mean, I’m writing it down.AmyGuys, it’s a really good dinner idea. Chicken, broccoli, and potatoes. VirginiaWait, how do you do the potatoes? AmyI buy baby potatoes, and then I quarter them and just boil them until they’re soft, and then I toss them with butter and salt. That’s it. VirginiaOkay, yeah, I could probably do that. But yes, it is a very different vibe now. I’ve talked about this on the newsletter, we read books with dinner most nights now. Or one of my kids might listen to an audio book. I’m less focused on, like, dinner has to be this moment where we come together and have a conversation everyone all together.Because one thing I find with my version of single parenting is like, in some ways, there’s more time for me with the kids. I’m going to have those conversations with them, but they happen at different points in our day now. I’m doing both all of dinner and all of bedtime, right? AmyDinner doesn’t have to serve all of the purposes. VirginiaI’m not tag teaming with another person anymore throughout the afternoon and evening. So on the days when we don’t have a lot of activities, my kids are home from 3pm until I can put them in their beds. That’s a lot of time! And sometimes by 6pm, I’m kind of like, “Let’s just all read our books. We don’t need to talk. It’s fine.”So that’s another change where this feels less like it needs to be this big “come together” moment for the family.And I think, too, some of that is just wanting less work for me. Like, sometimes if my kids are in a real arguing phase, I know they’re going to both be happier if they get more one-on-one time with me, versus me forcing “We all like each other right now, it’s going great!!”AmyOne of the things that we do now that we didn’t do before, is we listen to a lot more music. I bought a speaker for the kitchen. Yes, there are some arguments about what we listen to, because it tends to be the same thing for li…
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