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196. Anthropology, Market Research & Behavioral Economics with Priscilla McKinney Mar 18, 2022

Show notes

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Priscilla McKinney, CEO of Little Bird Marketing and host of the Ponderings from the Perch podcast. As you will hear in our conversation today, I love how thoughtful Priscilla and her team are about those brain associations and little play on word moments, like calling the podcast "Ponderings From the Perch" when the company is "Little Bird" Marketing, which is, of course, an extension of the benefits of word of mouth and the saying that "a little birdie" told you something. (Did you see how I extended that in the art for this episode…?)

This builds upon Dan Gingiss' insights on creating remarkable experiences that people can't wait to share and his WISER framework. It is witty and engaging to have little easter eggs like this. It helps people feel like they know you and want to connect more. Priscilla and I talk about this, her background in anthropology, how that helps her bring the "human factor" back into brands, and so much more during our conversation today. You don't want to miss it!

Show Notes:

[00:41] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Priscilla McKinney, CEO of Little Bird Marketing and host of Ponderings from the Perch podcast.
[03:35] Priscilla shares about herself and her background. She studied cultural anthropology and is now a CEO of a digital marketing agency.
[04:27] Every company should have a clear and effective marketing plan. Forget what everyone else is doing and think about what you need to do to drive revenue.
[06:51] Priscilla found herself in marketing after naturally doing it on the side.
[09:50] Quit marketing to everybody and think of who the most ideal person is.
[10:51] Observe people in their natural habitat and understand what is convenient, natural, and helpful for them. What delights and engages them? Once you understand this, start building a plan to attract those people.
[13:43] When your best and brightest clients start talking, listen and figure out what is frustrating to them.
[15:58] Too many people are not social on social media.
[18:46] That amplification of your thought leadership is where you can't help but see things a little differently.
[19:40] 92% of people who are engaged online want to deal with the person who is acknowledged or perceived as the thought leader in their industry.
[22:58] You have to be willing to be a little bit different than everybody else.
[25:43] Priscilla shares the background behind her business name and brand: Little Bird Marketing.
[26:52] Fidelity to your brand is something that really takes effort.
[28:27] Melina shares her favorite ad campaign of all time.
[30:25] Priscilla shares her favorite ad campaign of all time.
[31:55] Fun is such an important part of engaging with other people.
[32:47] Priscilla shares examples of how she used personas in the past.
[35:26] Speaking to the real heart of the problem is the one thing in persona work that can overcome any other obstacle. (And what most brands get wrong.)
[37:51] Pricing is not about the price. Oftentimes we haven't done a good enough job making them feel like they need this and you.
[39:40] Creating personas isn't enough–you need to use them. Keep them central to everything you do.
[41:52] People are going to get to your 404 page but you don't want it to be a bad experience. (Check ours out for inspiration.)
[43:45] Priscilla is going to be MCing Greenbook's IIEX North America in Austin this year.
[45:28] Melina is going to be speaking at IIEX North America in Austin and IIEX Europe in Amsterdam. Come join us!
[48:31] Priscilla has lots of great resources to polish your marketing.
[49:45] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[52:00] If you enjoy the experience I've provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!)

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
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Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

The Experience Maker, by Dan Gingiss
Choice Hacking, by Jennifer Clinehens
The Life Saving Skill of Story, by Michelle Auerbach
The Hype Handbook, by Michael F. Schein
Marketing Mess to Brand Success, by Scott Miller

Connect with Priscilla:

Top Recommended Next Episode: How to Create Remarkable Experiences with Dan Gingiss (episode 185)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
Resources from Little Bird Marketing
Greenbook's IIEX North America
A Non-Boring Behavioral Economic Lesson with Melina Palmer (Melina's Episode on Ponderings from the Perch

Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

195. Saving Peru's Environment One Nudge At A Time with BE OEFA Mar 11, 2022

Show notes

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Karina Montes and Mario Drago to discuss their work with BE OEFA in Peru. These are the first guests on the show from South America, and I am so excited to start having a more international presence in the guests coming up this year. Thank you to Carlos Hoyos, a listener of the show and LinkedIn connection for the suggestion and introduction. If you or someone you know is doing some cool work in behavioral economics in a country that isn't yet well represented in the space, reach out to me on LinkedIn or through email. I would love to see if it is a fit to feature on the show just like Karina and Mario's work with BE OEFA.

OEFA is the environmental regulatory agency in Peru, sort of like the EPA here in the United States, and BE OEFA is a (now award-winning!) team Karina started a few years ago to help incorporate behavioral economics into their work with some amazing results, as you will hear about in today's show.

Show Notes:

[00:42] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Karina Montes and Mario Drago working with BE OEFA in Peru. These are the first guests on the show from South America.
[01:42] OEFA is the environmental regulatory agency in Peru. BE OEFA is a team Karina started a few years ago to help include behavioral economics into their work with some amazing results.
[04:23] Karina shares about herself and her background. She is an economist at OEFA.
[04:51] Mario shares about himself and his background. He is an external consultant and lawyer.
[06:03] Karina shares the story of reforms that started in 2016.
[08:26] When people weren't doing what they "should" even though it was the law, they realized they needed to know more about the irrational part of the brain.
[10:16] Mario's relationship with behavioral economics was kind of an accident.
[11:21] Mario's team was trying to investigate why the public policies were not working. They discovered all the rational measures and economic incentives were not working.
[14:08] Mario was the coach for Karina's team. Each group worked with one problem, analyzed the behavior of interest groups, set objectives, and assigned the nudges.
[16:27] Sometimes you have to think in another way to promote compliance.
[17:42] They identified five projects they thought could be solved with behavioral science.
[20:18] The five projects seemed very irrational because they thought that the way to solve the problem was easy.
[21:02] BE OEFA was created to be an experimental nudge unit.
[23:42] They formed a group with people that were very motivated and already knew about the topic. Hundreds of people completed the test and 30 people were selected for the first group.
[25:01] Mario shares the process he went through to design the projects.
[26:09] The first step was to determine who they wanted to nudge. Then, after identifying the true problems they began the experiments, which lasted 3-12 months.
[29:05] They found something similar in every case. It is always best to understand the problem before investigating the best nudges to use.
[30:54] The best nudges are incredibly simple (in hindsight) and obviously work, but they often take a long time to figure out in practice.
[32:17] So much time has to be spent on developing and thinking about who you are talking to, what they are doing, and what mindset they are in.
[34:09] In the experiment about liability acknowledgment, the problem was that there was a very low rate of companies that acknowledged liability responsibility after the analysis process began.
[36:55] In the academic research you can find, a 3-4% increase is often a beautiful outcome. Their applied research had a much more significant impact – from 1.4% compliance to over 30%!
[37:49] You don't only have to provide the information. You have to make sure they understand it, internalize it and get part of their mental process in the right moment with the right incentive.
[39:28] Karina's tip: having lots of good data is key.
[42:12] It is important to be sure of the problem that needs to be solved.
[43:54] If you are interested in behavioral sciences, there is a lot of space to work in the public sector. If you want to have a career in behavioral economics you can also have public agencies as a client.
[45:28] You have to have information and data.
[44:48] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[46:30] There is a whole community of people who love behavioral economics from around the world waiting to network and connect with you. It is great to have like-minded people to connect with.
[47:41] If you enjoy the experience I've provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!)

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely
Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein
Sludge, by Cass Sunstein
Never Go with Your Gut, by Gleb Tsipursky
Finding Confidence in Conflict, by Kwame Christian

Connect with BE OEFA:

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
BE OEFA website in English
BE OEFA website in Spanish
Behavioral Economics Applied to Environmental Enforcement (English)
La Economía Del Comportamiento Aplicada a la Fiscalización Ambiental (Spanish)

Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

194. Functional Fixedness: When All You Have Is A Hammer, Everything Looks Like a Nail Mar 04, 2022

Show notes

In today's episode, we are digging in on the concept of functional fixedness, or the "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. I rather enjoyed taking this analogy a bit to the extreme while sharing how this works; I hope you like it too.

When there is an issue with functional fixedness, both sides are holding tightly to their own respective hammers. Like all the biases, heuristics, and concepts I share here on The Brainy Business, it is often easier to see these things in others than in ourselves, but I challenge you to look for your own hammer in each encounter. As you will learn in this episode, getting out of your own functionally fixed way – even about something simple – can have such a huge impact on your company overall. Listen in to find out how you can make small changes for a big impact.

Show Notes:

[00:41] In today's episode, we are digging in on the concept of functional fixedness, or the "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem.
[02:27] When you first show up to tackle a new skill or concept, you are so excited for this new opportunity, you likely bring every mental tool you might need to help you learn. You're a sponge, ready for whatever life throws at you.
[03:17] As you develop expertise, you start to declutter that mental toolbox.
[04:30] When someone cuts you off on the freeway, they're instantly labeled a "jerk." What about when you cut someone off? It feels completely different because of fundamental attribution error (and we do this all the time in business).
[06:09] It is important to know that you see "others" as different from you and will tend to judge them and their ideas more harshly, not giving them the benefit of the doubt that you might give to yourself and members of your team.
[07:49] Isn't it possible that the one thing someone else is arguing is one of those 275,000 things your brain filtered out? Or that you are looking at just one of many possible correct alternatives that could work?
[08:15] Functional fixedness or being set in your ways is another version of confirmation bias and the focusing illusion.
[09:06] Everyone else doesn't have to be wrong in order for you to be right.
[09:58] One of my favorite stories that I think is such a great example of overcoming functional fixedness, comes from Apollo 13.
[12:31] Even when the stakes are high little things like this can be missed when you're too focused on your little area that you are working on. That can cause a big problem.
[14:23] It is easy to find the right answer to the wrong question.
[15:18] Reframing the conversation so the team can look at things from different angles is so important
[16:51] When you are too deep into a problem or have become an expert, you have this curse of knowledge that can keep you from seeing all the other opportunities that are just outside the norm.
[17:26] Having a background knowledge of associations and how things work is important, but it is also important to understand that functional fixedness is a problem and it can keep you stuck sometimes in a way that will keep you from innovations or from solving the right problems.
[19:35] When you are fixated on the myopic perspective of what you do or how you do things, everything looks like a nail when all you have is that hammer. You can be missing the bigger picture, which isn't necessarily a problem until sometimes, it is too late.
[19:51] As you think about starting to apply this to your work, I don't recommend starting with something big like your company's mission. Have some warm-ups on less consequential projects first.
[21:11] Properly wording the question is so critical for where you end up.
[23:47] In general, when there is an issue with functional fixedness, both sides are holding onto their own respective hammers. Like all the biases, heuristics, and concepts I share here on The Brainy Business, it is easier to see these things in others than in ourselves, but I challenge you to look for your own hammer in each encounter. What are you fixated on that is keeping you closed off to the other person's perspective?
[24:51] "I don't care what it was designed to do, I want to know what it can do" - Gene Kranz, flight director for Apollo 13
[24:58] If you enjoy the experience I've provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!)

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Alchemy, by Rory Sutherland
Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein
What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer
Outsmart Your Instincts, by Adam Hansen
A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter
Marketing Myopia
Apollo 13 Movie Clip
Metric mishap caused loss of NASA orbiter
3 Steps To Better Decision Making

Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

193. How To Make Online Courses People Enjoy (And Complete) with Chris Rawlinson of 42 Courses Feb 25, 2022

Show notes

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Chris Rawlinson, founder of 42 Courses, a company he started because he believes learning should be a fun interactive journey of discovery. It's not about being right or wrong because, in fact, sometimes the best way to learn is to be wrong. Learning is about interest and engagement and enjoyment. And much like a great holiday, it's often more about the journey itself.

Chris took insights from a varied background to create online courses that people actually enjoy and complete. In an industry with standard completion rates of less than 10 percent, how does 42 Courses hover around 80 percent? They have incorporated behavioral science and psychology to help ensure a great experience that keeps people learning and coming back again and again? Listen in for tips to incorporate into your own courses.

Show Notes:

[00:42] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Chris Rawlinson, founder of 42 Courses, a company he started because he believes, "learning should be a fun interactive journey of discovery." (Agreed!)
[03:31] Chris shares about himself, his background, and how he found himself in this space.
[05:00] Why 42?
[07:01] Many of the courses are behavioral science-specific or have behavioral science in them. People need to upscale their creativity, problem-solving, and wellness.
[09:21] Having a limited number of courses at any time makes it so it is easier for people to make a choice and learn something.
[11:03] Chris shares about the framing experiment they did with their pricing.
[13:04] Disney Plus had a price increase and said that it is $1.99 per day instead of the overall price. Chris and Melina discuss the ups and downs of this approach.
[15:43] With education you will value the course more if you pay more money.
[18:35] For a lot of companies, the best thing they can do is increase their pricing.
[20:20] He started 42 Courses to make great learning that is really enjoyable for people.
[22:47] They have a team on the back end that is moderating all the responses instead of making that automated. (Wow!)
[25:08] Their courses offer real-world feedback from real people. They tried to integrate as many things as they could that they learned from behavioral science into all of their courses.
[26:18] They have a much higher completion rate than most of their competitors. The average completion rate for an e-learning course for around 7-9%.
[27:07] Right now their completion rate is 82%, but it fluctuates between 70-100%.
[29:19] They are rolling out an update so when you join it will show you where you are in your country. It is much more motivating than showing all the users.
[31:10] Everyone learns differently.
[33:32] Whatever you are doing online, in particular, if you are doing continuous education, it needs to be short, stackable, and bit-sized.
[34:35] The only way we remember things is through stories.
[37:29] Splitting things up into little lessons which have a mixture of easy and hard stuff really works.
[40:32] Should you get progressively harder only or mix in some easy stuff?
[41:52] In most education settings online you are missing the interactions with peers after the lecture, so they created and added opinion-based questions.
[44:18] We do need community, but the community side of things needs to be at a certain breakpoint.
[46:56] There are ways to have those "water cooler" moments that can help get the value of what was happening and bring it into a virtual space.
[49:21] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[52:31] If you enjoy the experience I've provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!)
Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Alchemy, by Rory Sutherland
The Behavior Business, by Richard Chataway
The Voltage Effect, by John List
The Choice Factory, by Richard Shotton
Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein

Connect with Chris:

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter

Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

192. AI, Blockchain, Machine Learning, & Behavioral Economics with Manuj Aggarwal Feb 18, 2022

Show notes

As a lover of questions, I get asked a lot of things on all sorts of topics. One that comes up often is this idea about machine learning, AI, big data, data analytics, and how it combines with the behavioral sciences. Is there an overlap or are they competing? How can they work together?

Around the same time as I was prepping to be part of a debate at the Insights Association's CONVERGE conference on a similar topic, I had my conversation and interview with Manuj Aggarwal. He went from making $2/day to the boardrooms of Fortune 500 companies as a business mentor. He now has four patents, two published books, and more than 180K students across the globe. He has worked with multiple businesses including Microsoft, Pearson, IBM, and many others. He even developed an AI-based system to help students avoid dropping out of degree programs that were praised and mentioned by Barack Obama and Bill Gates. He is the host of the Bootstrapping Your Dreams podcast, where I was honored to be a guest recently and I am delighted to have him with me here on the show to talk about the value of AI and how it can overlap with behavioral science. Listen in as we discuss all about combining AI with behavioral science. You don't want to miss the many great insights!

Show Notes:

[00:08] I'm delighted to introduce you to Manuj Aggarwal to discuss the opportunity of combining AI with behavioral science.
[01:07] In December 2021 I (Melina) had the honor of being part of a debate put on at the Insights Association's CONVERGE conference where my team was arguing that "When it comes to capturing consumer insights, AI is never going to work."
[03:59] Manuj shares about himself and the work that he does.
[06:42] We are all experts in something and we are always trying to improve ourselves.
[07:17] Technology moves at a very rapid pace.
[10:18] Blockchain can decentralize and negotiate that trust between us as a technology; we don't need the bank or any third party. Instead, we can put our promise on a blockchain, and when that promise is fulfilled the technology is going to complete that transaction.
[11:35] Manuj shares two of his favorite projects. The first project was a mining project they did with UPS.
[13:27] In the second project they applied behavioral science and AI with universities to keep students from dropping out of their degree programs after the first year. The system they created was talked about and supported by Barack Obama and Bill Gates. (Awesome!)
[15:47] It is about understanding what people are thinking and what the reference point is that they have in their mind to get that concept.
[16:20] We need to find out the objective and work backward.
[18:38] Monitoring the data and enhancing the models in real-time lets things get even more accurate.
[20:10] Instead of focusing on the problem you think exists, they start by asking, "What are the results you are looking for?'
[21:15] Figure out what the result is that you are looking for and then work backward on the root cause.
[23:50] There are so many common problems that people are having. Scaling happens gradually.
[25:46] There has never been a greater time than this to create a globally scalable company or solution.
[26:34] At the fundamental level when we break open AI it is actually a network of networks.
[28:33] You have to clean the data and you have to continuously do many experiments to fine-tune your data.
[30:09] You don't have to become an AI expert to apply it.
[32:12] As a business owner or individual, you need to look for repeated patterns in real life and that is where AI can be really helpful to optimize a business.
[33:03] Not sure where to start? Look at some repeated patterns where something happens consecutively three times.
[35:41] 95% of our decisions are made by our subconscious mind.
[36:44] Mediation allows you to connect with other human beings at a much more meaningful level.
[38:08] Mediation is really about unplugging and doing something that you would do any day of the week for the sake of having fun.
[41:34] The script needs to be flipped around. First, we need to feel fulfilled and happy and clear off all these negative emotions which then leads to amazing opportunities. (Melina calls this "calming the elephant" often)
[43:46] It is all about having conversations, building connections, and relationships.
[45:08] Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
[46:17] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[49:05] If you enjoy the experience I've provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!)

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

The Voltage Effect, by John List
The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey
Subtract, by Leidy Klotz
Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein
A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger

Connect with Manuj:

Top Recommended Next Episode: The Voltage Effect with John List (episode 190)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's new LinkedIn Newsletter
Bootstrapping Your Dreams Show

Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

191. Using Semiotics in Retail with Rachel Lawes Feb 11, 2022

Show notes

Were you a fan of The DaVinci Code? I loved that book, and quickly read everything by Dan Brown, which led to a fascination with the world of signs and symbols. I never really thought about how that aligns with my love of brain associations and behavioral economics, but they are very much rooted in the same fascinating topic.

When I was introduced to Rachel Lawes, by recent guest Elina Halonen, and I got to check out her first book Using Semiotics in Marketing and then an early read of this new book Using Semiotics in Retail, I was hooked and knew I had to share it with you all here on the show. Rachel is here to talk about the ins and outs of semiotics, and some fun stories about how they impact us all the time even when we might not realize it. I really love everything to do with semiotics and I think you will too.

One of my favorite insights from our conversation is, "Where there is choice, there is meaning." Take a moment to ruminate on that, and let's start the show.

Show Notes:

[00:47] Sometimes things come up that get me beyond fascinated and this is one of those episodes. It is because of the entire field of semiotics. Signs, symbols, and brain associations and how they impact businesses and buying decisions, it is truly fascinating.
[03:15] Rachel shares about herself and her background, and how she got into the field of semiotics. As a social psychologist, she is all about relationships and how people communicate with each other.
[04:24] Semiotics starts out from the view that people in conversation with each other actively and cooperatively build and construct versions of reality.
[06:24] Semiotics is the study of how people interpret and make sense of signs.
[08:15] Rachel shares about the Game Stop stock market saga.
[10:47] Millions of people bought shares in Game Stop with the result that by January of 2021 it was one of the most high-ranking businesses in the world in terms of its shares.
[13:07] Game Stop is a great story about business and how people create meaning amongst themselves.
[16:01] People were very quick to use the tools of language to create a sense of group identity.
[19:01] It simply changed the rules of the game because the stock market was not designed that way.
[21:05] Rachel shares the story from her book about a jam business gone terribly wrong.
[23:41] She went to the jam business and took photos to find out what was keeping people away.
[24:03] An essential question in semiotics is "Where have I seen this before?"
[25:13] She shares her findings when she visited the jam business. (Listen for a laugh!)
[28:07] When you hear it all explained, it sounds classy, but when you get the comparison you can see the flaws.
[28:57] Trust your instincts. If there is something making you uncomfortable, you need to take that seriously until you find out what that is.
[30:12] "Where have I seen this before?" is one of Rachel's favorite questions because it is one that her clients can start to use right away. It is also user-friendly for people just beginning semiotics.
[30:45] Where there is choice, there is meaning.
[31:19] She shares an example of Donald Trump's hair.
[33:50] Rachel shares the hilarious videos of Jeff Bezos and Leonardo DiCaprio.
[36:56] No matter how much money you have, money will never trump good looks.
[40:32] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[41:42] If you enjoy the experience I've provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!)

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
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Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Using Semiotics in Retail, by Rachel Lawes
Using Semiotics in Marketing, by Rachel Lawes
The Power of Us, by Dominic Packer & Jay Van Bavel
Elements of Choice, by Eric Johnson
The Experience Maker, by Dan Gingiss

Connect with Rachel:

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's new LinkedIn Newsletter

Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

190. The Voltage Effect with John List Feb 04, 2022

Show notes

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. John List, former chief economist at Uber, current chief economist at Lyft, professor at the University of Chicago, co-author of the wildly popular book, The Why Axis: Hidden Motives and the Undiscovered Economics of Everyday Life, who is here talking about his newest book, which just came out a couple of days ago, titled The Voltage Effect: How to Make Good Ideas Great and Great Ideas Scale.

In this episode, we talk about ideas that can scale, possible hurdles you may face when scaling, and how to overcome those obstacles. John shares about his brand new book and the five vital signs to vett your own ideas as you are growing to determine if they will scale, and what to do for those that might not be ready to scale yet. Listen in to learn all about making those good ideas great and your great ideas scale!

Show Notes:

[00:42] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. John List. Former Chief Economist at Uber, current Chief Economist at Lyft, and professor at the University of Chicago.
[02:38] John shares about himself and his background in behavioral economics.
[03:18] He quit on his dream to be a professional golfer to pursue his new dream in economics.
[05:29] After learning he would take the lessons in many cases from the classroom and use them in the real world.
[07:19] He hasn't been to all the baseball stadiums yet, but nearly all of them.
[08:42] John shares the moment he started becoming more interested in scaling when he started a preschool and created his own curriculum.
[10:59] Turning a mountain into a molehill.
[12:23] We very rarely say, "Are we doing something that is scalable?" and "What do we need to do differently in our original research if we find the program works to make it scale?"
[14:12] A constant thread in all of his walks of life is that you can only make big changes at scale.
[16:58] There are five important vital signs that any idea has to have a chance to scale.
[17:49] Just because your idea doesn't check all five boxes doesn't mean you shouldn't still go for it.
[20:01] Vital Sign 1: Make sure your idea actually has voltage before you try to scale it.
[21:14] Vital Sign 2: know your audience.
[24:41] His group developed a new product called Uber Apologies. Apologies really only work for new users.
[27:09] Vital Sign 3: Understand your situation.
[29:05] Look at all of the constraints and flaws at scale and bring that back to the original research. With those constraints in place, do we have an idea that can still work?
[30:18] Vital Sign 4: the spillover effect.
[32:06] His team rolled out tipping at Uber in the summer of 2017.
[34:35] Vital Sign 5: understand whether your idea has economies of scale or diseconomies of scale. Anything that has made it big has great economies of scale.
[37:28] The context or the properties of the situation are super important.
[38:02] Poke and prod and figure out where the weaknesses are. What are the nonnegotiables and if those aren't available at scale then you have to change your idea and refine.
[40:53] We have a finite number of days we get to live on this earth and we only have so many ways to change it and make it better. Why not give yourself your best shot?
[42:38] The second half of the book is using storytelling and standard ways to think economically to make better decisions in your life.
[45:09] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[47:16] If you enjoy the experience I've provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!)

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

The Voltage Effect, by John List
The Why Axis, by John List & Uri Gneezy
The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M. R. Covey
Start at the End, by Matt Wallaert
Subtract, by Leidy Klotz

Connect with John:

Top Recommended Next Episode: The Network Effect (episode 106)

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's new LinkedIn Newsletter

Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

189. Influence Is Your Superpower with Yale's Dr. Zoe Chance Jan 28, 2022

Show notes

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Zoe Chance. She got her Ph.D. in marketing at Harvard and has taught at Yale's School of Management for over 10 years. She has done a TEDx on how to make behavior addictive, and has been featured on NBC News, CNN, The Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Forbes, Washington Post, Fast Company and so many more amazing places.

She is here today to discuss her fantastically awesome new book, Influence Is Your Superpower, which officially comes out on February 1, 2022. I had the honor of reading this book early and let me tell you, you want this book. Hit pause, go place your order and come on back to listen to the conversation.

Listen in as we talk about how you can actually have fun in your work and break the rules a little. We also talk about Zoe's "No" challenge and her magic question. So much goodness… you don't want to miss it!

Show Notes:

[00:43] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Zoe Chance. She got her Ph.D. in marketing at Harvard and has taught at Yale's School of Management for over 10 years.
[03:02] Zoe shares about herself and how she got into the world of behavioral science. She teaches at Yale's School of Management and the book that she wrote is based on the course she teaches (the most popular in the business school!).
[05:57] Rejection doesn't kill you. If you are not getting rejected it means you are playing small.
[07:27] "No" is so hard for people to say and it is so hard for people to hear.
[08:24] When we are comfortable saying no we are helping other people be more comfortable saying no.
[09:36] "'No.' is a complete sentence. 'No, thank you.' is a polite complete sentence."
[11:32] Why it is empowering to just say, "No, thank you."
[12:10] She has her students do a 24-hour "No" challenge where for 24 hours they say no to everything and everyone. The results are always surprising.
[14:18] Nobody is going to dislike you for asking for something or rejecting a request if you do it in a warm way.
[16:49] If you have shorter chapters between your longer ones rather than a smaller number of long chapters, the book feels easier to read so you get more momentum going through.
[17:37] We're setting people's expectations and influencing their experiences by the names and frames that we give.
[19:55] In her book, Zoe wanted her readers to know that they don't have to do things the way everyone else is doing them and you can question all the norms and rules and do the thing that feels good and is fun to you.
[20:26] Zoe shares about her visit to the Harry Potter Studios outside of London and the impact it had on her. Melina chimes in with her experience as well!
[23:06] If you ever have a chance to do the London Harry Potter Studio tour Zoe and Melina both highly recommend it.
[24:17] Zoe shares about the psychological illusionist Derren Brown.
[26:28] In The Invisible Gorilla, you are focusing on one thing which is asking your brain to ignore everything else.
[27:27] Magicians are masters at directing attention and framing what we pay attention to.
[29:54] The Apocalypse, is Derren (and Zoe's) favorite show of his. He persuades the friends and family of a selfish loser to have him believe the end of the world is happening and there is a zombie apocalypse. He steps up as a hero.
[31:31] People want to say yes to you.
[33:45] The magic question is "What would it take?"
[34:36] When the other person tells you what it would take, they're implicitly committing to supporting that outcome if you follow the road map.
[36:32] Zoe's book, Influence Is Your Superpower is a personal journey of transformation to becoming someone that people want to say yes to.
[38:22] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[39:03] When you are having fun people can sense it and it makes them more likely to be attracted to what you're doing.
[40:04] I challenge you to take Zoe's "No" Challenge – say no to everything for the next 24 hours (after you buy her book of course-ha!).
[42:06] If you enjoy the experience I've provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!)

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Influence Is Your Superpower, by Zoe Chance
Influence (New & Expanded), by Robert Cialdini
How to Change, by Katy Milkman
The Invisible Gorilla, by Christopher Chabris & Daniel Simons
The Experience Maker, by Dan Gingiss

Connect with Zoe:

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's new LinkedIn Newsletter
Zoe's Yale Faculty Page
How to Make a Behavior Addictive: Zoë Chance at TEDxMillRiver
Derren Brown, The Apocalypse
Derren Brown, Perfect Present

Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

188. Behavioral Blueprint, including COM-B and MOVE models with Elina Halonen Jan 21, 2022

Show notes

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Elina Halonen, a behavioral insights strategist who has worked in the space for 15 years and co-founded a London-based insights consultancy working with global brands on branding, communications, and product/service development projects. She has expertise in behavioural analysis & design, consumer insights & market research, Cultural understanding, desk research & trends, branding & marketing strategy, and more.

Today on the show we talk a little about the COM-B and MOVE models, as well as Elina pre-committing to us all that she is going to write a book, called the Behavioural Blueprint!

COM-B is for: Capability, Opportunity, Motivation, and Behavior.

MOVE is for: Meanings, Observations, Viewpoints, and Experiences. We dive into what these models mean, a couple of examples, and so many other great topics.

Show Notes:

[00:40] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Elina Halonen, a behavioral insights strategist who has worked in the space for 15 years and co-founded a London-based insights consultancy working with global companies on branding, communications, and product/service development projects.
[03:13] Elina and Melina have been connected on LinkedIn for years and officially meeting for the first time for this interview!
[03:53] Elina shares about herself and her background.
[05:15] For the last couple of years she has worked as an independent consultant and has worked with various research agencies.
[08:02] Tips for starting a business in an emerging market? Find a niche where you can raise awareness for what you do. Some areas are easier than others. Find a way to educate the market.
[09:52] You will need a lot of creativity to promote yourself and what you do.
[12:07] If you pick what you are going to do, you have to be all-in on that thing for at least a year to give it a chance to be successful.
[14:55] Elina's first degrees were in marketing and it was always about consumer behavior.
[16:42] All of business is a long game.
[17:22] Give information generously. Make sure you add value to people.
[20:31] She works with market research agencies and brings her behavioral science expertise.
[22:19] There are different ways of talking about behavioral science depending on what it is you are doing. It is not one size fits all.
[23:01] When they do a project, they think about the target behavior, what is the business objective, and what behaviors do they want to influence or change.
[25:04] Elina shares her commitment to writing her book, Behavioral Blueprint. Hold her accountable on Twitter. (handles below)
[27:51] Melina shares her tips for writing a book, including to break it down and just get started.
[28:39] Break it down into chapters and look at what content you already have that fits that information and start segmenting it in.
[31:34] Bringing cultural psychology into behavioral change is becoming increasingly important.
[33:45] She has an intuitive process of looking at things in a certain way that is her Behavioral Blueprint.
[35:02] Start by looking at the situation and accessing what you are up against.
[35:44] She is a big fan of the COM-B model: Capability, Opportunity, Motivation, and Behavior.
[36:46] There is a huge amount of context that applied behavioral science often ignores.
[39:11] When she is analyzing or trying to organize things she likes to make it logical.
[41:54] Solving the wrong problem is very common and very human. Not spending enough time identifying the problem is the biggest mistake Melina sees companies make.
[43:37] Elina shares her blog post that she wrote about Netflix solving the wrong problem.
[45:10] Everything you do has an opportunity cost. We need to be sure we are solving the right problem first. It is the foundation of everything we do.
[48:03] We need to understand someone's logic empathically, putting ourselves in their shoes before we try to change their behavior.
[50:53] There are just some ways of spending money that is socially acceptable and some that aren't.
[51:15] Never assume you understand why someone does something because you don't.
[53:45] It's not about you, it's about the audience. Could it help someone else?
[54:35] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[56:19] If you enjoy the experience I've provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!)

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode:

Engaged, by Amy Bucher
Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely
Semiotics in Marketing, by Rachel Lawes
Get it Done, by Ayelet Fishbach
What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer

Connect with Elina:

Already Heard That One? Try These:

Other Important Links:

Brainy Bites - Melina's new LinkedIn Newsletter
De-Mystifying COM-B And How It Can Be Used In Research
The MOVE Framework: Meanings, Observations, Viewpoints, and Experiences in processes of Social Change
Squared Away Newsletter

Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

187. Motivation and Incentives at Work with Kurt Nelson Jan 14, 2022

Show notes

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Kurt Nelson, one of the cohosts of Behavioral Grooves as well as the president and founder of The Lantern Group.

In our conversation today we dig into motivation and incentivizing people at work and how to align that with your company strategy. We discuss how simple, seemingly "obvious" things can cause miscommunications so easily, like the word "grooves" in Behavioral Grooves. Tim and Kurt had many conversations about the name and agreed to it and were doing their first interview when they realized they had totally different ideas of that context - ha! Listen in to hear the full story. Kurt also shares his top podcasting tips and advice for anyone thinking about starting their own show. He shares so many great insights in our conversation, you definitely want to make sure to listen in.

Show Notes:

[00:41] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Kurt Nelson, one of the cohosts of Behavioral Grooves as well as the president and founder of The Lantern Group.
[02:17] Recently, Tim and Kurt did a session in the BE Thoughtful Revolution - watch the replay.
[03:26] Kurt shares about himself and his background. He is a behavioral scientist and he has been working in the field for 20+ years.
[05:04] Discussion on the music piece of Behavioral Grooves (and an interesting miscommunication that can teach you about business).
[07:43] There are over 260 episodes of the Behavioral Grooves podcast.
[09:34] Melina believes that Abbey Road by The Beatles is the greatest album ever.
[12:25] Sometimes we get constrained by our own knowledge. The idea of not knowing allows you to be more expansive in your thoughts about what could be.
[13:40] People get limited not only by their expertise, but also by their history.
[15:33] The interesting piece about business and the world is that it is constantly evolving, shifting, and changing. What worked last year might not work this year. The context changes by company and year.
[17:31] Co-hosts work on a podcast if you have a clear understanding and respect for each other. You also need to have an understanding of who is doing different roles.
[18:59] Consistency is key!
[20:18] As a host you have to bring a unique perspective to the story they are telling and ask them the right questions.
[22:04] A lot of the work Kurt does focuses on applying a behavioral science lens inside of organizations and trying to help the company understand the drivers of an employee's behavior and the motivation behind that behavior. They usually start with a behavioral audit.
[24:06] A big gap is almost always communication. You can have the best incentive plan, total rewards, and structure in place, but if people don't understand it or buy into it, you are missing a big opportunity.
[26:27] Kurt shares two of his corporate projects. They looked at the current programs they had in place and what behaviors they were driving.
[28:26] Companies want the behaviors the incentive plans and rewards programs are driving to align with the company strategy.
[29:03] The pandemic has been a real game-changer for many organizations.
[30:14] You need to treat your employees as humans. Understand what you can do as a manager to allow that human-centeredness of your employees to really be there and that you are bringing in the elements of listening, care, empathy, and concern.
[32:19] Understanding incentives becomes even more important when people are working remotely.
[32:39] The incentives need to match the audience you are currently trying to appeal to.
[34:43] That alignment with your incentives and your audience might mean you might have to exclude a certain group of people.
[35:47] Get the philosophy aligned with where you want to go before you even start to think about the specifics of how your rewards, incentives, and communication all go into play.
[36:50] In business we often think we are on the same page, but there are so many different perspectives that didn't even come into your brain.
[39:03] There is a real value of bringing someone in that isn't a part of the organization to do some of this work.
[41:47] Melina shares her closing thoughts.
[42:22] Join my free community, the BE Thoughtful Revolution.

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.

Let's connect:

Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com
The Brainy Business® on Facebook
The Brainy Business on Twitter
The Brainy Business on Instagram
The Brainy Business on LinkedIn
Melina on LinkedIn
The Brainy Business on Youtube
Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going!

More from The Brainy Business:

🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina's award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉

Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: