The Biblical Mind

Latest Episodes:

Wine, Worship, and Craftsmanship: A Biblical Theology of Alcohol (John Dunne) Ep #206 Jun 26, 2025

Show notes

Was wine in the Bible just a calorie source—or something far richer? In this fascinating conversation, Dr. John Anthony Dunne, author of The Mountain Shall Drip Sweet Wine: A Biblical Theology of Alcohol, joins Dru Johnson to explore how wine and alcohol shaped ancient Israel’s culture, theology, and imagination.

Dr. Dunne traces how biblical wine reflected not only the scarcity and agricultural hopes of ancient life, but also a tradition of craftsmanship, connoisseurship, and divine blessing. Together they unpack why biblical wine wasn’t just functional—it was symbolic of abundance, peace, and God’s favor.

From fermentation methods and ancient storage to the surprising case for white wine at the wedding at Cana, this episode challenges modern assumptions about alcohol in Scripture. Dunne explores why the biblical world viewed wine as inherently miraculous, why production was tied to the land promise, and how modern communion links us to Canaan’s terroir in unexpected ways.

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction
00:42 Christianity and Alcohol
02:52 Cultural Perspectives on Alcohol Consumption
06:01 Theological Implications of Alcohol in Scripture
08:58 Wine Production and Its Significance
12:00 The Craft of Winemaking in Ancient Times
14:57 Grapes: Beyond Wine Production
18:06 Environmental Factors in Viticulture
20:58 The Symbolism of Wine in Biblical Texts
22:06 The Importance of Climate in Winemaking
25:11 Exploring Ancient Grape Varieties
27:07 The Fermentation Process of Ancient Wines
35:04 The Significance of Jesus' First Miracle
45:10 Wine as a Connection to the Land

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Is Nationalism Biblical? Yoram Hazony on Nations, Empires, and Justice (Yoram Hazony) Ep. #205 Jun 19, 2025

Show notes

Is nationalism always bad—or does the Bible have a more nuanced view of nations, borders, and political life? In this fascinating episode, Israeli philosopher Yoram Hazony joins Dru Johnson to explore the political vision of the Old Testament, from the Table of Nations in Genesis to the prophetic hope of nations learning from Israel in peace.

Hazony explains how the Bible’s anti-empire stance emerges from the stories of Babel, Assyria, and Babylon—and why God’s vision for humanity includes independent nations with borders, traditions, and space to seek Him freely. Together they unpack how Israel’s kingship, laws, and tribal structure offer a model of checks, balances, and moral limits on power.

The conversation also tackles modern questions: What can Christians today learn from biblical nationalism? How does this compare with movements like Christian nationalism in the U.S.? And why does Hazony see so many modern Christian intellectuals missing the Old Testament’s political teachings?

For more of Yoram's literature:
https://www.yoramhazony.org/
https://x.com/yhazony

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Nationalism and the Bible
00:56 Biblical Foundations of National Identity
09:32 Political Philosophy in the Old Testament
12:43 Critiques of Nationalism in the Hebrew Bible
20:42 The Nature of Sin and Human Corruption
22:40 Nationalism and the Biblical Perspective
26:08 Borders and National Independence
40:01 Governance and the Role of Law
45:28 Christian Nationalism: Perspectives and Concerns

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Do You See What I See? Worship, Joint Attention, and Being Human (Cockayne & Salter) Ep. #204 Jun 12, 2025

Show notes

Is church just a place to think about God—or are we wired to worship together? In this groundbreaking episode, theologian Dr. Josh Cockayne and developmental psychologist Dr. Gideon Salter join Dru Johnson to explore how human beings are made for joint attention, and why gathering for worship is a deeply embodied, social necessity.

Drawing from their book Why We Gather, the conversation unfolds how infants develop the skill of “joint attention”—the ability to notice something with someone else—and how this same capacity is essential to biblical worship, from Genesis to Revelation. They argue that worship isn’t merely cognitive or emotional—it’s communal, embodied, and neurologically formative. Togetherness isn’t a nice-to-have; it’s the foundation of how we know God and the world.

From communion rituals and infant behavior to liturgical design and online church, the episode provides a practical, psychologically grounded, and theologically rich vision of church that challenges both individualism and shallow expressions of “community.”

For their book "Why We Gather," see the publisher's website here:

https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481322911/why-we-gather/

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Worship and Individual Experience
02:59 The Role of the Body in Worship
06:02 Joint Attention and Its Importance
09:20 The Collaboration Between Psychology and Theology
12:12 Understanding Joint Attention in Worship
15:17 The Impact of Joint Attention on Community Worship
18:05 Liturgy and Joint Attention in Practice
21:09 Theological Implications of Joint Attention
24:04 Cultural Jointness and Worship
27:06 Conclusion and Reflections on Worship
27:42 Children's Participation in Church
28:42 Exploring Joint Attention in Liturgical Settings
30:57 The Role of Community in Worship
32:36 Understanding Jointness and Joint Attention
35:12 The Dynamics of Participation in Worship
36:18 Theological Perspectives on Joint Attention
38:12 The Biological and Social Aspects of Gathering
41:44 Critiques of Theoretical Frameworks in Worship

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How Artists Think Biblically: Liturgies, Ritual, and the Weight of Words (Douglas McKelvey) Ep. #203 Jun 05, 2025

Show notes

What gives someone the right to script your prayers? In this powerful conversation, Douglas McKelvey, author of the bestselling Every Moment Holy liturgical series, joins Dru Johnson to unpack the spiritual and theological journey behind his work. From a childhood steeped in neo-charismatic theology to a disillusioning college experience at Oral Roberts University, McKelvey shares how God used a profound unraveling—what many today might call “deconstruction”—to rebuild a biblically coherent faith through unexpected mentors and communities.

Listeners learn how McKelvey became part of the Art House Foundation and later the Rabbit Room, drawing from the legacies of Francis Schaeffer, Edith Schaeffer, and Andrew Peterson to create a community of artists grounded in Scripture. Along the way, he opens up about the fear and trembling that should attend writing liturgies—and what it means to write prayers people will carry into their most vulnerable moments.

This episode explores beauty, hospitality, ritual, and the theological integrity behind the words we say to God. Whether you're a liturgy lover, creative, or just someone seeking coherent theology after chaos, this is an episode that will stay with you.

Learn more about the Art House and Rabbit Room here:
https://www.arthousenashville.com/our-story
https://www.rabbitroom.com/

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to the Rabbit Room
02:22 The Evolution of the Rabbit Room
05:17 Community and Connection in the Rabbit Room
08:29 The Significance of Northwind Manor
11:31 Personal Journey and Theological Foundations
14:10 Navigating Doubt and Deconstruction
23:08 Charlie Peacock and the Art House Foundation
26:29 The Art House and Its Influence
31:04 The Physical Space of the Art House
34:20 Theological Foundations for Artists
36:33 Every Moment Holy: A Journey of Prayer
43:13 The Impact of Ritual in Prayer
50:43 Reflections on the Craft of Prayer
52:18 The Rabbit Room: A Hub for Creativity

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Is Abraham a Hero or a Warning? How Genre Makes or Breaks Your Bible Reading (Andy Judd) Ep. #202 May 29, 2025

Show notes

What if our biggest biblical misunderstandings come from reading the right words in the wrong way? In this episode, Old Testament scholar Dr. Andy Judd joins Dru Johnson to unravel the complex and often misused concept of genre in biblical interpretation. Drawing from his background in English literature and law, Dr. Judd explains how many theological debates, misreadings, and even dangerous interpretations arise not from misused Hebrew dictionaries—but from unspoken assumptions about genre.

Why do readers assume Abraham’s behavior is exemplary? Why do sermons treat biblical laws like modern legal codes? Why do people interpret apocalyptic visions as historical predictions? From Genesis to Judges, Paul’s letters to Revelation, Judd shows that failing to ask, “What kind of text is this?” is often where interpretation goes off the rails.

Blending humor, literary theory, and deep biblical insight, Judd offers practical ways to become better “travelers” in the ancient biblical world—learning to coordinate with texts the way we coordinate with traffic rules in a new country.

Andy Judd's personal website can be found here:
https://www.andyjudd.com/

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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:54 The Journey into Genre Studies
03:26 Misinterpretations and Conflicts in Biblical Genre
06:26 Understanding Narrative and Ethical Frameworks
10:18 The Role of Genre in Biblical Interpretation
12:39 Defining Genre: Conventions and Contexts
14:37 Cultural Contexts and Genre Navigation
18:35 The Boomerang Test: A Practical Approach to Genre
24:32 Deep Structures and Genre Regulation
28:08 Understanding Genre in Scripture
33:54 The Role of Genre in Biblical Interpretation
39:22 Biblical Law: A Unique Genre
43:56 The Social Function of Biblical Law
49:42 Wisdom and the Interpretation of Law

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Storge, Justice, and the Ten Commandments: Rethinking Biblical Love (Mike Tolliver) Ep. #201 May 22, 2025

Show notes

Is loving your family first a biblical idea—or a betrayal of Jesus’ call to love your neighbor? In this thought-provoking episode, Mike Tolliver—Executive Director of the Center for Hebraic Thought—joins Dru Johnson to explore his developing PhD thesis on Storge (family love), the kinsman-redeemer, and what biblical justice actually looks like.

Drawing on Torah, philosophy, and early Christian texts, Mike argues that Storge love is not only natural—it’s essential to a functioning society, and that Israel’s family-based justice system was designed to eliminate categories like “orphan” and “widow.” He explores why Paul uses the metaphor of adoption—and not kinsman-redeemer—for Gentile inclusion, and why the Ten Commandments are saturated with family ethics.

From Sophie's Choice-style sermon illustrations to questions about circumcision, baptism, and ethnic election, this episode unpacks the implications of what it means to love your kin without devaluing the stranger.

As Mike prepares for PhD work, his big question is: What does rightly ordered family love look like in Scripture—and what happens when it gets misordered?

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Chapters:

00:00 Exploring Academic Pursuits and Career Paths
05:47 The Kinsman Redeemer: A Social Safety Net
14:35 Storge and Kinsman Redeemer in Biblical Context
19:54 Theological Implications of Kinship and Election
27:34 Exploring the Promise of Descendancy
29:03 Navigating the Path to a PhD
30:56 The Challenge of Proposal Writing
31:57 Understanding Storge in Hebraic Thought
39:07 The Role of Storge in the Ten Commandments
41:07 Stranger Love vs. Family Love
43:55 Moral Dilemmas in Love
49:56 The Future of Intergenerational Family Focus

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Managing Fame, Faith, and the Stage: Inside the (Christian) Music Industry (Nick Barre) Ep. #200 May 15, 2025

Show notes

What does it mean to call something “Christian music”? Nick Barré has spent decades in the music industry—from working at EMI with early Switchfoot to managing major names like Casting Crowns, KB, Brandon Heath, and more. In this 200th episode of The Biblical Mind, he joins Dru Johnson to reflect on the Christian music label, the tension between calling and category, and how artists navigate faith and fame.

Nick argues that labeling music—or restaurants or plumbers—as “Christian” may do more harm than good. He shares why genre categories are a business necessity but spiritually unhelpful, and why the most important questions artists must answer are about calling, audience, and identity—not chart placement.

From spiritual burnout to public affirmation, from the temptations of platform to the dangers of envy, Nick shares pastoral, industry-hardened wisdom on how to guide artists into longevity and spiritual wholeness. He even offers advice for aspiring Christian musicians—and what it really means to “show, not tell” when pursuing a creative calling.

Nick Barre's Company "Proper Management" can be found here:

https://www.propermanagement.net

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Chapters:
00:00 Defining Christian Music
03:11 The Evolution of Music Genres
06:10 Navigating the Music Industry
08:57 The Dangers of Labeling
12:09 The Role of Artists in Ministry
15:16 The Impact of Fame on Identity
18:24 Identifying Unique Gifts in Artists
25:41 Exploring Diverse Artist Portfolios
28:29 Navigating Hard Conversations in the Music Industry
31:05 Defining Success in the Arts
33:15 The Challenge of Artistic Compromise
37:06 Understanding Market Dynamics in Music
40:22 Fragmentation of the Music Industry
46:39 Advice for Aspiring Christian Artists

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Why Intellectual Humility Is the Key to Understanding Scripture (Matt Whitman) Ep. #199 May 08, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson sits down with Matt Whitman, host of The Ten Minute Bible Hour, to explore why so many Christians—and skeptics—struggle with Scripture. Whitman shares what he’s learned from engaging millions online: people are often afraid to be wrong, shaped by graceless experiences in church and cancel culture in the wider world. The solution? Modeling curiosity, empathy, and intellectual humility.

Whitman opens up about his own faith journey, the impact of church hurt, and why he makes space for disagreement and exploration in his content. From deconstructing popular biblical themes to highlighting the beauty of traditions outside his own, Matt argues that deep scriptural engagement thrives in environments where it’s okay not to have all the answers.

Together, Dru and Matt delve into themes like biblical coherence, the importance of interpretive grace, and what it means to approach the Bible not as experts, but as learners. Their conversation models the very ethos they preach: thoughtful, generous dialogue rooted in the belief that God’s grace extends to our minds—not just our sins.

For More of Matt Whitman and the Ten Minute Bible Hour: https://www.youtube.com/@UC3vIOVJiXigzVDA2TYqaa0Q
https://www.facebook.com/thetenminutebiblehour
https://www.instagram.com/tenminutebiblehour
https://www.twitter.com/MattWhitmanTMBH
https://www.threads.com/@mattwhitmantmbh

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For more articles:
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:54 Resistance to the Bible and Church Experiences
04:57 Cultural Resistance and Historical Context
07:44 Navigating Hurt and Church Experiences
10:56 Empathy and Understanding in Conversations
14:21 Normalizing Being Wrong
17:20 Internal Cohesion in Christianity
25:38 Universal Themes in the Bible
32:44 Navigating Biblical Interpretation and Truth
35:43 The Complexity of Biblical Truth
37:55 The Pressure of Pastoral Performance
42:14 The Challenge of Authenticity in Teaching
45:32 Modeling Intellectual Grace and Humility
49:40 Creating a Gracious Learning Environment
53:16 The Nature of Knowledge and Learning in Faith

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Evolution and Identity: A Jewish Perspective on Science and Belief (Rachel Pear) Ep. #198 May 01, 2025

Show notes

What happens when science, religion, and education collide? In this episode, Dr. Rachel Pear shares her remarkable journey from growing up in New York’s modern Orthodox Jewish community to researching how evolution is taught and received across Israeli society.

A scholar of science education and prehistoric archaeology, Rachel discusses how Jewish, Christian, and Muslim communities in Israel grapple differently with the question of human origins. Why do some teachers avoid the topic altogether? Why do secular and religious students draw such hard lines around what’s “acceptable” to believe? And how do family, community, and national identity shape scientific acceptance?

Rachel also shares her experience presenting three distinct rabbinic views on evolution in schools, showing students that Jewish thought isn’t monolithic—and that questioning is part of the tradition. She explores the cultural weight of science, the legacy of eugenics, and how educators can create space for real dialogue in science classrooms.

Whether you’re an educator, a religious thinker, or just curious about how evolution meets identity, this episode offers a rich, honest look at a complex conversation that’s still evolving.

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Rachel's Journey
02:49 Exploring Prehistoric Archaeology and Cultural Contexts
05:48 The Intersection of Evolution and Religion
08:48 Cultural Perspectives on Evolution in Israel
11:57 The Role of Education in Science and Religion
14:57 Diverse Views on Evolution in Arab Schools
17:58 The Complexity of Science and Cultural Identity
20:50 Reflections on Science, Culture, and Religion
27:27 Navigating Values in Education
32:20 The Complexity of Teaching Evolution
35:53 Epistemology and the Scientific Method
40:51 Cultural Perspectives on Evolution
45:32 The Intersection of Tradition and Modernity

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Is Evolution a Dirty Word? Muslim Perspectives on Science and Religion (Shoaib Malik) Ep. #197 Apr 24, 2025

Show notes

Is the relationship between Islam and science as well-developed as it is in Christianity? Not even close—but that’s changing. In this episode, Dr. Shoaib Ahmed Malik, Lecturer in Science and Religion at the University of Edinburgh, joins Dru Johnson to share the emerging field of Islam and science, focusing on the hot topic of evolution.

Shoaib unpacks the historical development of Islamic engagement with science, tracing it from early encounters with Western scientific frameworks to the present. He explains why the Islamic world lacks infrastructure like textbooks, academic chairs, and journals for the science-religion conversation—and why that’s finally beginning to change.

But what about evolution? Shoaib shares why it remains a highly sensitive subject in Muslim-majority countries (including stories of professors losing jobs over it) and how Muslim views differ from Christian ones, especially around original sin, Adam, and human suffering.

This is an honest, fascinating look at how Muslims are navigating modern science, why cultural and religious taboos persist, and how Shoaib’s work is shaping new conversations at the intersection of Islamic theology and science.

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Shoaib Ahmed Malik's Journey
03:11 Transition from Engineering to Humanities
06:00 Teaching Experience in the UAE
09:14 Pursuing Philosophy, Science, and Religion
12:18 Publishing and Academic Recognition
15:11 Navigating Career Changes and New Opportunities
18:29 Exploring Science and Religion Conversations
26:43 Navigating Conversations with Students
27:29 Understanding Islam: Sunni vs Shia
30:19 The Contemporary Muslim World: Sunni and Shia Dynamics
31:34 The Intellectual History of Islam
35:17 Muslim Perspectives on Science and Religion
39:01 Islamization of Science: A Discourse Emerges
42:48 The Development of Islamic Science Education
44:25 Evolution and Its Reception in the Muslim World
48:11 Unique Questions Muslims Ask About Evolution

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