The Biblical Mind

Reconstructing Deconstruction: It Doesn't Have to Be This Way (Joel Wentz) Ep. #261 Jul 16, 2026

Faith deconstruction has become one of the defining conversations in modern Christianity—but what does it actually mean to deconstruct your faith? In this episode of The Biblical Mind Podcast, Dru Johnson sits down with pastor, YouTuber, and book reviewer Joel Wentz to explore why so many Christians are questioning their beliefs and how those questions can lead to deeper spiritual maturity rather than cynicism.

Drawing from his own experience growing up in evangelical Christianity, Joel shares how wrestling with doctrines like hell, eschatology, and biblical interpretation led him through a season of deconstruction before discovering a richer understanding of historic Christian faith. Together, Dru and Joel discuss the difference between sincere faith exploration and tearing down beliefs for their own sake, the role of church culture and church hurt, why asking difficult questions is deeply biblical, and how the Nicene Creed and church history provide stability amid uncertainty.

The conversation also explores theological humility, the importance of Christian tradition, the dangers of intellectual arrogance, and how pastors, churches, and Christian communities can create safe spaces for honest questions without abandoning biblical orthodoxy.

Whether you're personally deconstructing your faith, walking alongside someone who is, or simply want to understand one of today's most important conversations in Christianity, this episode offers thoughtful, compassionate, and biblically grounded wisdom.

Visit Joel's youtube channel (Click Here), or his Patreon (Click Here)

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Deconstruction and Faith

04:56 Different Understandings of Deconstruction

06:03 Interrogating Inherited Beliefs Without Negativity

08:16 Biblical Questions and Cultural Fears

09:39 The Skeptical Mood of Scripture

10:53 Questioning in the Bible: Examples from Scripture

12:26 Personal Stories of Faith and Questioning

16:30 Deconstruction of Eschatology and Hope

19:11 The Compelling Vision of the Renewed Earth

21:24 The Impact of Eschatology on Personal Hope

23:42 Starting the YouTube Journey During COVID

25:03 Sharing Faith and Books Online

27:24 Encouraging Questions and Faith in Community

28:51 Balancing Questions and Faithful Answers

30:38 The Dangers of Going to Foundations Without Humility

31:48 The Role of Sincerity and Humility in Deconstruction

33:10 The Pool Analogy: Standing in the Water

34:41 Rich Christian Thought on Deconstruction Questions

36:24 Historical Answers to Faith Questions

38:31 Healing Through Confession and Love

40:30 Trust and Gentle Care in Discipleship

42:00 The Continuum of Beliefs and Non-negotiables

44:32 The Nicene Creed and Core Doctrines

45:58 Evolving Views on Doctrine of Hell

49:00 The Journey from Open Theism to Classical Theism

52:31 The Impact of Doctrine on Prayer and Spiritual Life

55:09 The Richness of Christian Thought and Tradition

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Reimagining Biblical Politics: A New Podcast (Michael Rhodes, Marshall Teague) Ep. #256 Jun 11, 2026

What does the Bible actually say about politics, and how should Christians engage public life in an age of division and polarization?

In this inaugural episode of Reimagining Biblical Politics, biblical scholar Michael Rhodes joins co-host Marshall Teague to explore the foundational claim at the heart of Scripture: God reigns. Rather than offering partisan talking points or commentary on current political controversies, Rhodes argues that the Bible presents a rich and often-overlooked vision of political discipleship rooted in the kingdom of God.

Drawing from his experiences living and serving in economically marginalized communities in Memphis, Nairobi, and Auckland, Rhodes explains how questions of justice, poverty, public life, and community inevitably led him to reconsider the relationship between faith and politics. The conversation introduces key themes from his book, Reimagining Biblical Politics, including the distinction between "outpost politics"—how God's people live together as citizens of God's kingdom—and "pilgrim politics"—how Christians engage the broader society around them.

Listeners will discover why the language of kingdom, gospel, peace, and savior was deeply political in the biblical world, why Scripture offers far more than a few isolated verses on government, and how a renewed understanding of biblical politics can help Christians faithfully navigate public life today.

Listen to more of Reimagining Biblical Politics (Click Here)

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Are we Doomed to Lonely and Isolated Lives? No. (Alan Noble) Ep. #255 Jun 04, 2026

What does it mean to truly live well in an age of loneliness, distraction, and endless self-improvement advice?

In this episode, Dru Johnson sits down with Alan Noble to discuss his new book on the seven Christian virtues and why recovering ancient wisdom may be the key to human flourishing today. Together they explore how virtues such as courage, temperance, prudence, justice, faith, hope, and love shape a life rooted in Christ rather than in modern self-help culture.

The conversation examines the growing loneliness epidemic, the difference between "thin" online communities and meaningful relationships, and why many young adults struggle with agency, friendship, dating, and purpose. Noble argues that virtue is not a life hack or productivity technique but a lifelong process of spiritual formation empowered by the Holy Spirit and cultivated within Christian community.

Dru and Alan also tackle the relationship between faith and works, discuss mentorship and the loss of intergenerational wisdom, and explore why courage may be one of the most important virtues for our cultural moment. From social media and smartphone habits to friendship and discipleship, this episode offers practical and theological insights for Christians seeking to live faithfully in a fragmented world.

Order Alan Noble's latest book, To Live Well, here:

https://www.ivpress.com/to-live-well?

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Chapters:

00:00 Points of Resistance and Challenges in Teaching Virtues 02:40 Virtues as Pathways to Live Well in Christian Life 04:02 Grace, Works, and Righteousness in Christian Practice 05:25 Community and the Need for Thick, Committed Groups 08:33 The Problem of Thin Communities and Society's Disconnection 10:30 The Role of Wisdom and Mentorship Across Generations 13:25 The Importance of Affirmation and Love in Community 15:17 Healthy Groups and the Balance of Affirmation and Correction 16:59 Scriptural Foundations for Virtues and Character Traits 18:19 The Significance of Courage and Temperance for Young Adults 26:32 Understanding Courage in the Context of Inhibition and Risk 32:53 Practical Steps to Cultivate Virtues and Live Well 39:24 Starting the Journey Toward Virtue and Reflection 40:32 The Role of Prayer and the Holy Spirit in Virtue Formation 43:05 Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

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When Helping Still Hurts (Brian Fikkert) Ep. #254 May 28, 2026

In this episode, Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Brian Fikkert about poverty, charity, economic development, and the role of the church in helping vulnerable communities flourish. Drawing from decades of experience in poverty alleviation and Christian mission, Fikkert explains why many well-intentioned efforts to help the poor can unintentionally create dependency, undermine dignity, and fail to address the deeper relational causes of poverty.

The conversation explores key themes from When Helping Hurts, including the difference between relief, rehabilitation, and development, as well as how churches and nonprofits can better serve communities both locally and globally. Fikkert also discusses the spiritual dimensions of poverty, the importance of restoring human dignity, and why effective compassion requires long-term relationships rather than quick fixes.

This episode is essential listening for Christians, pastors, missionaries, nonprofit leaders, and anyone interested in biblical justice, economic development, and sustainable poverty alleviation. If you care about faith, generosity, missions, and helping people in ways that truly empower them, this conversation with Brian Fikkert offers practical wisdom and a deeply biblical framework for serving others well.

To learn more about Dr. Fikkert's work at the Chalmers Center Click Here.

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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding Poverty: A New Perspective 03:01 The Role of Relationships in Alleviating Poverty 06:08 The Complexity of Helping: Individual vs. Systemic Issues 08:46 Practical Approaches to Helping the Poor 11:49 The Gospel's Role in Poverty Alleviation 14:53 Building Trust and Relationships with the Poor 23:17 The Long Arc of Love 24:06 Different Callings to Serve the Poor 25:41 The Importance of Messy Relationships 26:51 Supporting Effective Ministries 28:37 Understanding Structural Injustice 30:10 The Individualistic Nature of American Christianity 31:58 Advancing the Conversation on Helping 34:22 The Right Story of Human Flourishing 35:27 The Flaws of the American Dream 38:40 Returning to Our True Habitat 41:06 The Work of the Chalmers Center

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Are There Other Gods in the Bible?: James Duguid on Divine Council (James Duguid) Ep. #253 May 21, 2026

Did the biblical authors believe in a divine council of heavenly beings surrounding God? In this episode, Dru Johnson sits down with Hebrew Bible scholar Jamie Duguid to unpack one of the most controversial debates in modern biblical scholarship: the meaning of “sons of God” in Deuteronomy 32 and the growing influence of Michael Heiser’s Divine Council worldview.

The conversation explores the Hebrew phrase bene elohim, the Divine Council interpretation of Deuteronomy 32:8, and whether the Bible presents Yahweh as ruling among other divine beings. Duguid and Johnson examine the textual evidence behind the debate, including the Masoretic Text, the Septuagint, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Samaritan Pentateuch, Syriac translations, and Isaiah 40–55.

They also discuss Genesis 6, Psalm 82, angels, demons, ancient Near Eastern religion, monotheism vs. henotheism, and why the Divine Council framework has become so influential through scholars like Heiser.

If you’ve wondered whether the Bible teaches the existence of other gods, spiritual powers, or a heavenly council, this episode offers a careful, scholarly, and deeply accessible exploration of one of the Bible’s most fascinating theological questions.

Read more of Dr. Duguid's work here:

https://www.quaerendum.com/

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to the Divine Council Debate 07:14 Understanding Elohim and Divine Beings 13:22 The Role of the Divine Council in Scripture 18:52 The Importance of the Masoretic Text 24:55 Exploring Alternative Texts: Septuagint and Samaritan Pentateuch 31:04 The Impact of the Dead Sea Scrolls on Biblical Texts 33:21 Exploring the Dead Sea Scrolls 35:39 Textual Variations in Biblical Manuscripts 40:11 Theological Implications of Textual Differences 45:18 Assessing the Nature of Divine Beings 51:57 Reconceptualizing Godhood in Scripture 56:57 Critiques and Responses to Heiser's Work

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Is Job a Trauma Survivor?: Suffering, PTSD, and Healing in the Bible (Michelle Keener) Ep. #252 May 14, 2026

What if the Book of Job is not primarily about explaining suffering—but about surviving trauma?

In this episode of The Biblical Mind Podcast, Dru Johnson sits down with Old Testament scholar and licensed therapist Michelle Keener to explore the Book of Job through the lens of trauma, PTSD, lament, and healing. Drawing from her book Comfort from the Ashes, Keener argues that the long poetic sections of Job—often skipped by modern readers—may actually portray the slow process of trauma recovery rather than abstract theological debate.

Together, Dru and Michelle discuss why Job’s friends sound so much like modern Christian clichés, how churches often rush people past suffering toward “victory,” and why lament is essential to spiritual health. The conversation also explores the neuroscience of trauma, the body’s involuntary survival responses, repetition in trauma processing, and how God’s presence—not simplistic answers—brings healing in Job.

They also examine the church’s discomfort with anger, grief, and unresolved pain, asking whether modern Christians have lost the biblical language of lament found in Job and the Psalms.

This episode is a thoughtful and deeply pastoral conversation for anyone wrestling with suffering, trauma, faith, or the meaning of the Book of Job.

For Michelle Keener's latest book, buy it here:

https://www.ivpress.com/comfort-in-the-ashes

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Job and Common Misunderstandings 02:08 The Movie Tree of Life as an Exposition of Job 04:07 Is Job the Oldest Book in the Bible? 05:23 The Significance of the Middle Poetry in Job 06:22 Trauma and the Messy Middle of Job 08:17 Sitting with Suffering: The Role of Lament and Honesty 09:42 Job as a Trauma Survivor and Its Modern Relevance 11:55 The Process of Healing and God's Presence 14:07 Physiological Responses to Trauma and Divine Design 16:50 Reintegration of Trauma and the Role of Narrative 19:44 The Encounter with God as Resolution 22:40 Creating Trauma-Informed Church Spaces 24:37 The Power of Honest Testimony and Lament 26:42 The Ubiquity of Trauma Talk and Its Nuances 29:48 Language of Trauma: Distress, Wounded, and Healing 33:40 Ripple Effects of Trauma on Families and Communities 36:11 How to Approach Reading Job for Deep Understanding 38:18 Interpreting Job's Final Resolution and God's Response 40:20 Theological Insights: God's Goodness and Human Suffering 41:18 Conclusion: Healing and Hope in the Biblical Narrative

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What Hegseth Gets Wrong About Pharisees (Jeffrey Garcia) Bonus Episode May 11, 2026

In this episode, biblical scholar Jeffrey Garcia joins Dru Johnson to unpack one of the most misunderstood groups in the New Testament: the Pharisees. Prompted by recent public comments from U.S. Secretary of War Pete Hegseth, the conversation explores how the term “Pharisee” has often been used as a caricature for hypocrisy—and why that misunderstanding can contribute to anti-Jewish and anti-Semitic attitudes.

Drawing from the Gospels, Acts, ancient Judaism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, Dr. Garcia explains that the Pharisees were not simply legalistic villains opposed to Jesus. Instead, many Pharisees shared substantial theological ground with Jesus and were actively engaged in serious debates about how to faithfully live out God’s commandments. The episode also examines how Christian preaching has historically oversimplified the Pharisees, why phrases like “Christ killer” emerged from these distortions, and how pastors and churches can teach the New Testament more responsibly today.

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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding the Pharisees: Context and Misconceptions 08:47 The Pharisees and Their Relationship with Jesus 17:45 Navigating Modern Discourse on Pharisees and Anti-Semitism

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Vocation vs. Career vs. Calling (Steven Garber) Ep. #251 May 07, 2026

What does it truly mean to have a vocation—and how is it different from a career? In this thought-provoking conversation, Steven Garber and Dru Johnson explore the deep disconnect between faith and everyday work, challenging the dualism that separates “spiritual” callings from ordinary life.

Garber argues that vocation is not reserved for clergy or religious roles but is integral to the mission of God. Drawing from biblical theology, church history, and lived experience, the discussion highlights how modern culture often reduces calling to career success, income, or personal fulfillment—leaving many disillusioned.

Together, they unpack the tension between vocation and occupation, the myth of “doing what you love,” and the overlooked dignity of ordinary work—from parenting to manual labor. The conversation also addresses the Protestant work ethic, the confusion between money and meaning, and why younger generations struggle with career pressure and purpose.

With insights shaped by L’Abri, Hebraic thought, and a lifelong exploration of what it means to be human, Garber offers a compelling vision: true vocation is about coherence—aligning who we are with how we live in the world.

This episode is essential listening for anyone wrestling with calling, work, and the search for a meaningful life.

Dr. Garber's books can be bought here:

https://www.ivpress.com/steven-garber

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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding Vocation: Common Misunderstandings 03:03 The Role of Dualism in Vocation 04:55 Biblical Literacy and Vocation 06:41 The Protestant Work Ethic and Its Implications 12:07 The Nature of Work: Toil and Redemption 18:19 The Value of Work Beyond Monetary Gain 20:48 The Importance of Ordinary Work in the Church 24:45 Vocation vs. Occupation: Understanding the Difference 29:22 The Influence of Labrie on Personal Development 33:56 The Value of Delayed College Education 41:37 Exploring the Human Condition 47:59 The Role of Truth in Storytelling and Society

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C.S. Lewis Under the Microscope: Biblical Accuracy, Errors, and Influence (Leslie Baynes) Ep. #250 Apr 30, 2026

In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. Leslie Baynes explores the complex relationship between C.S. Lewis and the Bible. While Lewis is widely celebrated for his theological insight and literary brilliance, Baynes’ research uncovers a more nuanced reality—one where Lewis occasionally misquotes scripture, relies heavily on memory, and even attributes statements to Jesus that do not appear in the Gospels.

Drawing from her book Between Interpretation and Imagination: C.S. Lewis and the Bible, Baynes examines both Lewis’s profound contributions and his interpretive missteps, including his famous “liar, lunatic, or Lord” argument.

The episode also tackles the cultural phenomenon of “Saint Lewis,” particularly among American evangelicals, and the resistance to critically evaluating his work. Yet, rather than dismissing Lewis, Baynes advocates for a balanced perspective—appreciating his literary and spiritual impact while engaging his ideas with scholarly rigor.

This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in biblical interpretation, theology, and the enduring influence of one of Christianity’s most beloved thinkers.

You can buy Dr. Baynes' book here: https://www.eerdmans.com/9781467469708/between-interpretation-and-imagination/

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to C.S. Lewis and Evangelical Perception 03:00 The Complexity of C.S. Lewis's Legacy 05:57 Navigating Criticism in Lewis Studies 08:59 The Role of Biblical Scholars in Lewis's Work 12:06 The Trilemma: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord? 14:45 Gender Dynamics in Scholarly Critique 23:55 The Influence of Michael Ward 26:01 Critique of C.S. Lewis's Biblical Interpretation 27:15 Misquoting Jesus: The Dangers of Inaccurate Scripture 31:11 The Problem with Lewis's Scriptural Assertions 33:24 The Adulterous Woman: A Misplaced Argument 38:26 Lewis's Misunderstanding of Greco-Roman Literature 40:14 C.S. Lewis and the Chronicles of Narnia 44:30 A Hermeneutics of Love 47:23 C.S. Lewis: A Public Intellectual?

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Rethinking Women in Ministry: From Genesis to Paul (Preston Sprinkle) Ep. #249 Apr 23, 2026

What does the Bible actually say about women in church leadership—and are we asking the wrong questions? In this episode, Dru Johnson sits down with biblical scholar Preston Sprinkle to explore the complex, often misunderstood topic of gender roles in Scripture. Drawing from his book From Genesis to Junia, Sprinkle shares his “exegetical journey,” a multi-year study that avoids predetermined conclusions and instead carefully examines key biblical texts.

Together, they challenge modern assumptions often imposed on Scripture, including Western ideas about equality, hierarchy, and leadership. The conversation highlights how women are portrayed throughout the Bible—from influential figures in the Old Testament to faithful disciples in the Gospels—and why these narratives matter for interpreting passages like 1 Timothy 2.

They also unpack how leadership functioned in the early church, revealing a more fluid and diverse structure than many assume today. Rather than offering simplistic answers, this episode invites listeners to wrestle with the full biblical witness, appreciate its complexity, and approach the conversation with humility, patience, and deeper study.

Whether you’re complementarian, egalitarian, or still exploring, this discussion offers fresh insight into one of the church’s most debated topics.

You can buy Dr. Preston Sprinkle's latest book here:

https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9780830785803_from-genesis-to-junia?

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Chapters:

00:00 The Journey of Understanding Women in Leadership 02:58 Cultural Context and Biblical Interpretation 13:04 Women in the Old Testament vs. New Testament 18:11 Exegetical Challenges and Practical Applications 23:42 The Complexity of Prescriptive and Descriptive Narratives 25:50 Theological Rationale in Creation Order 27:39 Desire and Headship: A Deeper Look 28:09 Authority and Epistemic Roles in Relationships 29:37 Leadership Dynamics in the Early Church 32:43 Paul's Perspective on Gender Roles 36:59 Women in Paul's Ministry: A Closer Examination 40:00 Cultural Context and Gender Stereotypes 41:50 Celebrating Gender Differences in Leadership

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Inside the Bible Business: The Story behind Publishing the NIV (Paul Caminiti) Ep. #248 Apr 16, 2026

In this episode, former Bible publisher Paul Caminiti shares an insider look at the global Bible industry, revealing surprising truths about how Scripture is translated, marketed, and consumed. From his leadership role at Zondervan to overseeing millions of Bible sales annually, Caminiti uncovers the business dynamics behind modern Bible publishing—including why Bibles remain the bestselling book every year.

The conversation dives into the creation of the New International Version (NIV), exploring the complex, expensive process of translation and the ongoing scholarly debates between “word-for-word” and “thought-for-thought” approaches. Caminiti also recounts the intense “Bible wars,” where cultural, theological, and political pressures clashed over gender-inclusive language in Scripture.

Despite record-breaking sales—over 25 million Bibles sold annually in North America—Bible reading continues to decline. Caminiti explains why, pointing to fragmented reading habits, over-engineered study Bibles, and the unintended consequences of chapter and verse formatting.

Ultimately, this episode challenges listeners to rethink how they engage with Scripture, introducing a fresh approach that emphasizes immersive, communal reading over isolated study—offering a compelling vision for rediscovering the Bible’s original impact.

Buy the Immerse Bible here:

https://ourdailybreadpublishing.org/immerse-bible.html

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Chapters:

00:00 The Bible Publishing Industry: Surprises and Insights 04:34 The Economics of Bible Publishing 10:44 Translation Challenges and Scholarly Rigor 17:43 Navigating the Bible Wars 24:27 Marketing Strategies and Media Reactions 30:11 Controversies in Bible Translation 31:53 Understanding Gendered Language in Translation 35:26 The Bible's Bestselling Status vs. Reading Trends 39:10 The Dilemma of Bible Sales vs. Engagement 42:10 Introducing the Immersed Bible 51:13 The Impact of Reading Order on Understanding Scripture

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Was Paul a Philosopher? Rethinking the Apostle as Rabbi and Thinker (Joseph Dodson) Ep. #247 Apr 09, 2026

How should we understand Paul—as a rabbi, a philosopher, or something else entirely?

In this episode, Dr. Joseph Dodson explores Paul as a figure who operates within both Jewish and Greco-Roman intellectual worlds. Rather than forcing a choice between “rabbi” or “philosopher,” the discussion shows how Paul embodies elements of both. He is deeply trained in the Scriptures of Israel and interprets them with methods recognizable within Jewish tradition, yet he is also conversant with the philosophical categories and rhetorical practices of the wider Greco-Roman context.

This dual identity helps explain both the content and the form of Paul’s letters. His arguments are not abstract theological constructions detached from history, nor are they merely repetitions of inherited tradition. Instead, they represent a dynamic engagement with Scripture in conversation with the intellectual world of his day.

The episode highlights how modern readers often flatten Paul into one category or another, missing the richness of his thought. By recovering Paul as both rabbi and philosopher, we gain a clearer picture of how he communicates the significance of the Messiah to diverse audiences.

Ultimately, this approach invites us to read Paul with greater historical sensitivity and intellectual nuance.

For Joseph Dodson's latest book, buy it here:

https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9798400500527_paul-the-rabbi-philosopher-stoic-and-jewish-philosophy-in-the-apostles-thought

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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding Paul: Context is Key
02:09 Paul as Rabbi Philosopher: Bridging Two Worlds
09:58 The Apocalyptic Paul: A New Perspective
14:16 Politics and Philosophy: Paul's Counter-Cultural Message
18:09 Sin and Systemic Issues: A Deeper Understanding
20:03 The Law's Weakness: Setting the Stage for Grace
25:54 The Role of Law and Spirit in Paul’s Theology
27:39 Paul as Rabbi and Philosopher
28:48 Paul's Relationship with the Hebrew Text
29:43 The Wisdom of Solomon and Paul
33:06 Paul's Jewish Identity and the Law
35:01 Paul's Approach to Gentiles and the Law
36:53 Paul's Communication Style and Cultural Fluency
38:27 The Genius of Paul
41:07 The Connection between Nietzsche and Paul’s Philosophy
43:00 The Unique Voice of Paul in the Church

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Bible First: The Bible And Politics Go Great Together, But How? (Mike Tolliver) Ep. #246 Apr 02, 2026

In this episode, Mike Tolliver and Dru Johnson reflect on the inaugural Bible First conference on politics, assessing both its successes and its limitations. Designed to “cut through the noise” of contemporary political commentary, the conference aimed to resource Christians with biblically grounded thinking rather than culturally inherited assumptions.

The conversation highlights a central tension: while many speakers engaged important historical and theological insights, fewer fully embodied the “Bible First” methodology by tracing political concepts directly through Scripture. This revealed a broader challenge within the church—namely, the difficulty of grounding political theology in the narrative and legal frameworks of the Bible, especially the Torah.

Key takeaways include the importance of defining contested terms like “Christian nationalism,” the need to examine how cultural assumptions shape biblical interpretation, and the value of recovering categories such as nationhood, law, and kingship from within Scripture itself. The hosts also reflect on memorable contributions from the conference, including themes of dual citizenship in the kingdom of God and fresh biblical frameworks for understanding the nations.

Ultimately, the episode frames the conference as a successful first step—one that raised better questions, exposed gaps, and set the stage for more focused, Scripture-driven conversations in the future.

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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to the Conference on Politics in the Bible
03:30 Defining Christian Nationalism and Its Implications
05:19 The Concept of 'Bible First' in Political Theology
09:42 Key Takeaways from the Conference Papers
15:49 The Role of Torah in Understanding Political Ethics
21:15 Coercive Power and Its Biblical Context
23:37 Understanding Nationhood and Identity
30:09 The Role of Law in Ancient Israel
31:27 Natural Law vs. Revealed Law
33:17 Expectations of Kingship and Governance
36:48 Future Topics for Discussion

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The Truth About Iran: Religion, Power, & the Rise of Underground Churches (Farhad Rezaei) Ep. #245 Mar 26, 2026

Is Iran truly an Islamic nation—or is that a misconception shaped by politics and media?

In this episode, Dru Johnson speaks with political scientist Dr. Farhad Rezaei, who offers an insider’s perspective on religion, culture, and power in modern Iran. Contrary to common assumptions, Rezaei explains that only a minority of Iranians actively identify as Muslim, with many describing themselves as secular, non-religious, or spiritually unaffiliated.

At the same time, Iran is experiencing what Rezaei calls a “religious revolution”: a dramatic rise in Christian conversions, growing from just a few hundred in 1979 to millions today. This growth is occurring despite severe consequences, including imprisonment or even death for those who convert. As a result, many believers gather in secret “house churches,” where Bible study and worship continue underground.

The episode also explores how state enforcement of Islamic law has paradoxically contributed to widespread disillusionment. As Iranians became more familiar with official religious teachings, many concluded that they conflicted with their cultural identity and moral intuitions.

Rezaei also provides insight into the political realities of the Iranian regime, the treatment of religious minorities, and the broader geopolitical tensions shaping the region today.

Ultimately, this conversation challenges listeners to rethink simplistic narratives and better understand the complex religious landscape within Iran.

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Chapters:
00:00 Understanding Iran: A Cultural Overview
05:01 The Rise of Christianity in Iran
09:58 Religious Minorities and Their Struggles
14:57 House Churches: A New Form of Worship
20:06 Personal Stories: Faith and Identity in Iran
21:30 Understanding Shi'ism: A Deep Dive
24:43 The Geopolitical Landscape: Iran and Israel
27:02 Nuclear Ambitions: The Threat of Iran
30:03 Rationality in Warfare: The Iranian Perspective
34:28 The Iranian Regime: Current State and Future Prospects

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Where Is the Ark of the Covenant? Legends, Evidence, & Real Possibilities (Chris McKinny) Ep. #244 Mar 19, 2026

What happened to the Ark of the Covenant—and why does it still capture the imagination of both scholars and the public?

In this episode, Dru Johnson speaks with archaeologist Dr. Chris McKinny about his documentary Legends of the Lost Ark and the enduring mystery surrounding Israel’s most sacred object. McKinny explains that while many assume the Ark was destroyed in the Babylonian invasion, the biblical text never explicitly says so—leaving open a range of historical and legendary possibilities.

The conversation explores why popular imagination is often shaped by pseudo-archaeology, conspiracy theories, and figures like Ron Wyatt, whose claims continue to influence public perception despite lacking credible evidence. McKinny distinguishes between serious archaeological inquiry and what he calls “religious pseudo-archaeology,” which often exploits faith for sensational claims.

At the same time, he argues that dismissing the Ark entirely misses something essential. In Scripture, the Ark is not just an artifact but the symbolic center of God’s presence—what he calls the “beating heart” of Israel’s story. Its disappearance after the First Temple period becomes a theological problem as much as a historical one.

Ultimately, this episode invites listeners to think more carefully about evidence, tradition, and the role of the supernatural in both ancient texts and modern faith.

For more on Legends of the Lost Ark, go here:
https://www.legendsofthelostark.com/

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Chapters:
00:00 Public Perception of the Ark of the Covenant
04:56 The Intersection of Pseudo-Archaeology and Faith
07:58 The Supernatural and Historical Context of the Ark
12:50 Linguistic Connections: Noah's Ark and the Ark of the Covenant
17:26 The Making of 'Legends of the Lost Ark'
22:06 Exploring the Ark's Journey
23:52 The Ark's Significance in Biblical Narratives
25:33 The Ark's Role in God's Presence
29:41 The Ark as a Symbol of Protection
34:20 The Ark's Fate and Historical Context
40:06 The Ark's Legacy and Modern Interpretations

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Embodied Knowing: Polanyi, Scripture, and the End of the Mind-Body Divide (Dru Johnson) Ep. #243 Mar 12, 2026

Why does Michael Polanyi matter—and why should Christians care?

In this episode, Dru Johnson and Mike Tolliver reflect on the Hebraic Thought Community’s recent book study of Personal Knowledge and explore why Polanyi’s work remains so influential. A chemist-turned-philosopher, Polanyi challenged the modern view of knowledge as detached, purely mental, and objective. Instead, he argued that all knowing is embodied, communal, and tradition-shaped.

Science, he insisted, is not merely the collection of neutral facts but a “social fabric” in which communities train people to see significance where others cannot. Learning to read an x-ray, for example, requires apprenticeship—participation in practices that shape perception itself.

Dru connects Polanyi’s insights to Scripture, showing how biblical knowing is inseparable from ritual, community, and action. Orthodoxy and orthopraxy are not rivals but entangled realities. You cannot truly see unless you practice. Whether in Proverbs’ call to “incline your ear,” Deuteronomy’s emphasis on communal instruction, or Jesus’ insistence that doing reveals truth, the Bible assumes that knowledge grows through embodied participation.

This conversation offers a powerful framework for understanding discipleship, evangelism, and spiritual formation—not as mere belief acquisition, but as formation within a living community of knowing.

If you are interested in the books mentioned in this episode, you can learn more here:

Personal Knowledge - https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/P/bo19722848.html

A Little Manual For Knowing - https://wipfandstock.com/9781610977845/a-little-manual-for-knowing/

Longing to Know - https://bakerpublishinggroup.com/products/9781587430602_longing-to-know

Loving to Know - https://wipfandstock.com/9781608999286/loving-to-know/

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Michael Polanyi
07:04 The Role of Christians in Knowing
10:57 The Interconnection of Practice and Knowledge
18:15 Presuppositionalism vs. Polanyi's Approach
25:05 Polanyi vs. Rationalism: The Body and Community
29:50 Practical Applications of Polanyi's Ideas
37:00 The Importance of Community in Understanding

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Antisemitism and the Holocaust: Or, How Normal People Become Killers (David Pileggi) Ep. #242 Mar 05, 2026

Is the Holocaust fading from living memory—and if so, what are the consequences?

In this sobering and historically grounded conversation, Dru Johnson speaks with longtime Jerusalem resident and Anglican rector David Pileggi about why the Holocaust must be understood not merely as Jewish history, but as a defining event in modern human history. Pileggi argues that the Holocaust was not simply a tragic episode within World War II—it was central to the war’s origins and its catastrophic consequences.

Drawing on Christopher Browning’s Ordinary Men, the discussion explores how middle-aged, non-ideological German reservists became mass shooters—not primarily because of fanaticism, but because of conformity, fear, propaganda, and social pressure. The conversation moves beyond gas chambers to the psychology of genocide, asking how “normal” people participate in extraordinary evil.

The episode also examines the roots of antisemitism, conspiracy thinking, and scapegoating—patterns that continue to resurface in modern political discourse. Pileggi offers a nuanced perspective on Jewish-Christian relations, contemporary Israel, and the responsibility Christians bear in resisting dehumanization and ideological hatred.

This episode challenges listeners not merely to remember history—but to act wisely in the present so that its darkest chapters are not repeated.

To learn more about the tours mentioned in this episode, see here:

https://narrowbridgetour.com/

If you are interested in Ordinary Men, you can learn more here:

https://www.harpercollins.com/products/ordinary-men-christopher-r-browning?variant=32207518924834

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Chapters:

00:00 The Impact of Historical Memory
12:04 The Holocaust: Lessons for Today
18:20 Ordinary Men: The Psychology of Perpetrators
28:54 The Psychological Impact of War and Choices
35:30 Racial Nationalism and Its Consequences
40:34 The Role of Antisemitism in Nazi Propaganda
46:28 The Dangers of Dehumanization
53:19 Critiquing Israel and Supporting Jewish People

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Syndicated: The Bible Bar - Genesis 1 (Joshua Berman & K Lawson Younger) Ep. #241 Feb 26, 2026

In this syndicated episode, The Biblical Mind features the inaugural release of The Bible Bar, a new podcast from Bar-Ilan University hosted by Dr. Joshua Berman. The first episode dives into one of the most debated chapters in Scripture: Genesis 1.

Dr. Berman welcomes eminent Assyriologist and Old Testament scholar Lawson Younger to explore how the biblical creation account relates to ancient Near Eastern cosmogonies and theogonies. What makes Genesis similar to Egyptian and Mesopotamian creation stories—and what makes it radically different?

Younger explains how ancient Near Eastern cultures viewed creation and divinity as intertwined, where sun, moon, rivers, and mountains were themselves gods. In contrast, Genesis 1 insists on a Creator wholly distinct from creation. The world is not divine—it is spoken into being.

The conversation explores Tiamat and tehom, the image of God, the Memphite Theology, and the striking emphasis on divine speech. Rather than offering a scientific account, Genesis answers a different question altogether: Who is the Creator, and what does that mean for humanity?

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe to The Bible Bar as it works chapter-by-chapter through the Torah.

You can find the podcast on their webpage or Spotify channel here:
https://sites.biu.ac.il/en/bible-bar/page/10098
https://open.spotify.com/show/3kHJ6MrxrEDobNRDsOPKn4

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Chapter:
00:00 Introduction to the Bible Bar
03:17 What Do We Have In Genesis 1?
06:52 Who, Or What, Is God?
13:30 What Does Genesis 1 Have to Say About Humanity?
17:43 Does the Bible Borrow from Other Cosmogenies?
21:26 What Does the "Image of God" Really Mean?
25:03 What Is Memphite Theology?
30:46 The Shared World of the Author and Audience

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Is “I’m Sorry” Biblical? Honor, Social Order, and Forgiveness in Scripture (Joshua Berman) Ep.#240 Feb 19, 2026

Does it matter whether we feel sorry when we ask for forgiveness?

In this conversation, Rabbi Dr. Joshua Berman returns to discuss the surprising findings of his long-term research into forgiveness in the Hebrew Bible. The biblical word slicha (“forgiveness”) appears only in relation to God—not between people. In fact, there is no word for “apology” in biblical Hebrew.

So how were offenses resolved?

Drawing on honor culture studies and examples ranging from Jacob and Esau to Judah and Tamar, Dr. Berman argues that ancient Israel operated within a different moral economy. Reconciliation was not primarily about emotional sincerity or repairing inner feelings—it was about restoring public order and status. Offense disrupted hierarchy; reconciliation restored it.

From duels between Hamilton and Burr to modern military and team dynamics, Berman shows how deeply culture shapes what we mean by “forgiveness.” The result is a paradigm shift that challenges modern Western assumptions about apology, sincerity, and moral transformation.

The conversation concludes with the launch of Dr. Berman’s new podcast, The Bible Bar, dedicated to exploring Scripture chapter by chapter with intellectual and spiritual integrity.

For "The Bible Bar" on Spotify, go here:
https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/the-bible-bar/

Or if you prefer the RSS feed:
https://anchor.fm/s/10e77a470/podcast/rss

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Chapter:
00:00 Introduction and Context of the Conversation
01:04 Exploring Forgiveness in the Hebrew Bible
03:58 Cultural Perspectives on Offense and Forgiveness
07:13 The Role of Hierarchy in Relationships
10:04 Honor Cultures and Their Impact on Forgiveness
13:22 Case Studies: Understanding Offense and Repair
16:15 Conclusion: The Complexity of Forgiveness
18:35 The Dynamics of Status in Jacob and Esau's Relationship
21:08 Understanding Honor Cultures and Their Implications
25:17 The Shift from Honor Culture to Individual Agency
29:29 Modern Applications of Ancient Principles of Reconciliation
33:24 Introducing The Bible Bar Podcast

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Love, Justice, and the American Prison System: A Biblical Rethink (Abigail Pasiuk) Ep. #239 Feb 12, 2026

In this eye-opening conversation, PhD researcher Abigail Pasiuk joins Dr. Dru Johnson to explore how the Hebrew Bible can inform modern conversations about mass incarceration. Drawing on her personal experience—her father’s time in federal prison—and academic research at Oxford, Abby offers a theologically rich critique of retributive justice models prevalent in the U.S. prison system.

She explains how biblical justice prioritizes restoration and dignity rather than dehumanization, citing key themes such as the Shema and imago Dei. Abby shares firsthand accounts from interviews with incarcerated individuals, exposing everyday indignities—from food labeled “not for human consumption” to being stripped of identity and reduced to a number. With over 80% recidivism in the U.S., Abby points to countries like Norway where restorative practices and the “principle of normalcy” have dramatically reduced reoffense.

The episode challenges listeners to rethink what justice should look like through a biblical lens: not just punishment, but humanizing correction rooted in love. It’s a conversation that bridges theology, criminology, and real human stories—urging the church to see prisoners not as disposable, but as image-bearers.

Follow Abigail's work here:
https://www.theology.ox.ac.uk/people/abigail-pasiuk

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Chapter:
00:00 Abigail's Journey to Oxford
08:26 The PhD Experience at Oxford
17:18 Research Focus: Mass Incarceration and Justice
27:09 Critique of the Prison System and Alternatives

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Archaeology of the Everyday: Grounded Theology in Ancient Israel (Backfish & Shafer-Elliott) Ep. #238 Feb 05, 2026

What if theology isn’t something abstract but grows directly from the soil beneath our feet? In this episode, Dr. Cynthia Shafer-Elliott and Dr. Libby Backfish discuss their new book Grounded Theology, which argues that Israel’s theological reflections were deeply intertwined with daily life—especially as subsistence farmers in a land marked by both promise and struggle.

Drawing on archaeological discoveries from ancient households, the conversation explores how everyday artifacts like loom weights and ovens reveal Israelite religious practices not just in temples, but in kitchens. The land itself—its fertility, harshness, and rhythms—shaped covenantal faithfulness and theological imagination. They challenge modern listeners to reevaluate their own “floating theology” and rediscover the formative power of embodied life, land stewardship, and communal labor.

With humor, honesty, and deep insight, the guests call for a return to theology that is firmly grounded—in history, material reality, and the lived experience of Israel.

You can find Grounded Theology here:
https://bakerpublishinggroup.com/products/9781540962539_grounded-theology-in-the-hebrew-bible

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Chapters:
00:00 The Need for a New Textbook
03:34 Household Archaeology and Daily Life
10:31 The Role of Land in Theology
15:14 Connecting Ancient Practices to Modern Faith
23:35 Challenges in Theological Education
28:53 Conclusion and Reflections on Teaching

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Redeeming Eden & Eve: How the Bible Strategically Uplifts Women (Ingrid Faro) Ep. #237 Jan 29, 2026

Why does Scripture so often portray women as central to God’s work of redemption—even in stories of deep dysfunction and failure? In this episode, Dr. Ingrid Faro, Old Testament scholar and interim president of Northern Seminary, joins Dru Johnson to explore her groundbreaking work in Redeeming Eden: How Women in the Bible Advance the Story of Salvation.

Dr. Faro shares how her personal journey through theological trauma, cultic church experiences, and academic discovery led her to reexamine Genesis 1–3 and the women of the Bible. She explains how Hebrew terms like ezer and tzelah (often translated “helper” and “rib”) have been misunderstood, how Eve’s story actually radiates hope, and how strategic female figures consistently propel salvation history forward.

The conversation also tackles misinterpretations of Genesis 3:16, the patterns of dysfunction and healing across the biblical narrative, and what the Bible really says about evil. This episode is a deep and hopeful reconsideration of gender, power, and goodness within the story of Scripture.

You can find Ingrid's "Redeeming Eden" here:
https://zondervanacademic.com/products/redeeming-eden

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Chapters:

00:00 The Importance of Women in the Bible
02:58 Challenges and Misunderstandings
05:52 Theological Journey and Discoveries
08:56 Women as Key Figures in Redemption History
12:04 Genesis and the Role of Women
14:53 Understanding the Image of God
18:10 Eve's Story and Redemption
20:58 The Dynamics of Desire and Power
23:56 Women and Men in Collaboration
26:55 The Nature of Evil in the Bible
29:57 Future Works and Closing Thoughts

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Seeing What’s Really There: A Guide to Biblical Allusions (Matt Swale) Ep. #236 Jan 22, 2026

Can you trust that viral “Bible connection” you just saw on TikTok?

In this episode, Matt Swale, author of "Scripture’s Use of Scripture in the Old Testament," joins Dr. Dru Johnson to discuss how biblical allusions really work—and why we need better instincts and better tools when interpreting Scripture. Swale wrote the book to help lay readers and undergraduates navigate the exciting (and sometimes overhyped) world of intertextuality: how one passage of Scripture evokes another, often subtly, and with profound rhetorical effect.

They explore his criteria for spotting allusions—rare terms, thematic coherence, and rhetorical fit—while affirming the emotional and spiritual value of hunting for connections. From Genesis 3 and Luke 24 to Judges 19 and Genesis 19, Swale shows how true allusions enrich our understanding, while false positives can mislead or confuse.

Swale also urges humility: “You want to make sure it’s real,” he says. “False positives are part of the process.” He encourages listeners to use tools like reference Bibles, read in community, and learn from scholars—while warning against treating academic access as priestly gatekeeping.

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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to the Conversation
01:00 Teaching Hermeneutics and Its Challenges
02:35 Illusions and Bad Practices in Interpretation
05:07 The Role of Social Media in Biblical Interpretation
07:45 Criteria for Identifying Illusions
11:55 The Importance of Rhetorical Analysis
16:07 The Need for Humility in Interpretation
20:00 Understanding Allusions in Scripture
24:01 The Nature of Illusions and Their Impact
28:03 Exploring Textual Connections
32:00 The Role of Community in Biblical Literacy
36:06 The Future of Biblical Literacy
40:03 Connecting Joseph and Daniel Stories
43:53 Rhetorical Connections in Genesis and Judges
46:57 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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The State of Hebraic Thought In 2026 (Dru Johnson) Ep. #235 Jan 15, 2026

In this episode, Dru Johnson and Mike Tolliver reflect on the Center for Hebraic Thought’s evolving impact and expanding community. They revisit the promise made in 2025 to annually assess their work and celebrate how that commitment has borne fruit: from the flourishing Hebraic Thought Facebook community and its scripture reading groups, to the launch of a Michael Polanyi reading club. They announce the inaugural Bible First Conference Series, co-hosted with the American Bible Society, exploring how various Christian traditions engage politics through a biblical lens.

The conversation highlights recent standout books—many by past podcast guests—including Becoming God’s People by Carmen Imes, Leviticus on the Butcher’s Block by Phil Bray, and Grounded Theology by Cynthia Schaefer-Elliott and Libby Backfish. Dru and Mike also preview the new Tracing Biblical Thought book series, designed to bring scholarly insights to general audiences in accessible 100-page volumes.

The episode closes with a candid discussion about cultural headwinds—from Stoicism to Neoplatonism—and the Center’s commitment to reclaiming biblical categories for the church. They emphasize the need for translations and tools, like the Lexham English Bible and the NET Bible, that bring readers closer to the thought world of Scripture.

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Chapters:

00:00 Navigating Change: New Beginnings in 2026
03:09 The State of Hebraic Thought: Community and Events
05:57 Engaging Conversations: The Bible First Conference
08:58 Exploring New Literature: Book Series and Recent Releases
12:08 Anticipating Future Works: Upcoming Books and Insights
21:45 Exploring Biblical Forgiveness
22:42 Justice and Discipleship in Biblical Politics
23:32 Resources for Studying Scripture
24:43 The Value of Modern Translations
31:42 Challenges of Hebraic Thought in Modern Culture
36:27 Neoplatonism vs. Stoicism: Cultural Influences on Thought

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Sacrifice, Atonement, and Presence: Maybe Leviticus Doesn't Mean What We Think? (Phil Bray) Ep #234 Jan 08, 2026

What happens when an Australian butcher starts reading Leviticus—and finds it fun? In this unique episode, Dru Johnson speaks with Phil Bray, author of Leviticus on the Butcher’s Block, about how his day job cutting lambs and steaks helped him see the book of Leviticus in a whole new light. Phil traces his journey from casual Bible reader to Leviticus superfan, exploring how rituals, sacrifice, and atonement make far more sense when you’ve broken down hundreds of animals by hand.

Phil shares how ancient sacrificial rituals weren’t necessarily about violent death but about preparing food as a gift to God. The conversation dives into the Hebrew understanding of holiness, clean vs. unclean, and why God’s presence is depicted as a space without disease or death. Along the way, Phil and Dru reflect on Mary Douglas, Jewish slaughter laws, the power of smell and memory, and how the altar isn’t where the animal dies—but where it becomes holy.

Phil’s insights bring theology and meat science into one coherent (and hilarious) frame, showing why Leviticus is deeply spiritual, richly embodied, and more relevant than most Christians assume.

For Phil's YouTube Channel, go here:
https://www.youtube.com/@Leviticus_is_fun

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Chapters:
00:00 The Journey to Leviticus
03:19 Understanding Atonement and Sacrifice
06:19 The Butcher's Perspective on Rituals
09:15 Cultural Context of Sacrifice
12:32 The Nature of Death in Sacrifice
15:29 The Art of Kosher Slaughter
18:23 Leviticus: A Fun Exploration
21:27 The Meaning Beyond Death in Rituals
27:01 The Olfactory Experience of Worship
30:24 The Significance of Sacrifice in Ancient Cultures
34:07 Rethinking Atonement and Sacrifice
39:19 The Life of Jesus: More Than Just Death
45:06 Leviticus: A Guide to Drawing Near to God

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ICYMI: How Old Testament Laws Can Shape Christians Today (Carmen Imes) Ep. #233 Jan 01, 2026

In this episode, Old Testament scholar Dr. Carmen Imes unpacks widespread Christian misunderstandings of Torah and shows how the laws of the Old Testament were never meant as a means of salvation, but as a way of living out Israel’s covenant identity. Rather than a legalistic burden, Torah was a gift of freedom—a lifestyle for a people already redeemed.

Dr. Imes explains how Jesus wasn’t raising the bar beyond Sinai but calling his followers back to its original heart: internal transformation, not external compliance. Through examples like the command against coveting and teachings on oath-making, she demonstrates how the Torah shaped a moral imagination rooted in God’s character.

She also reveals the narrative logic of Israel’s law: it was given within a story of deliverance, not in abstraction. Laws were embedded in history, and many operated more like wisdom paradigms than court-enforceable codes. This narrative-law fusion is unique to Israel among ancient Near Eastern cultures.

With compelling insights into the Ten Commandments, patriarchal structures, and agricultural ethics like gleaning, Imes challenges modern Christians to reinterpret Torah as a resource for discipleship—not something to discard, but to embody. Torah becomes not a list of rules, but a lens for living justly in every generation.

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Chapters:

0:00 Why the Torah isn't what gave salvation to the Israelites
2:28 Why there are rules in the Bible
7:44 Oath-making in the Hebrew Bible
13:07 What the Ten Commandments were really like
17:23 The uniqueness of the Hebraic covenants and Old Testament laws
25:04 What it means to "love the LORD your God with all your heart"

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ICYMI: Is the NT Just Stoic Philosophy? (Jonathan Pennington) Ep. #232 Dec 25, 2025

ICYMI: This episode is one of our earliest episodes, and originally aired on 5/14/2020

In this introductory conversation, Dr. Jonathan Pennington joins the Center for Hebraic Thought as its newest fellow and shares how his journey through philosophy and biblical scholarship led him to see the New Testament as part of a deeply sophisticated intellectual tradition. Pennington discusses how early Christianity, though written in Greek and shaped within a Hellenistic world, did not abandon its Jewish roots but rather translated its robust metaphysic across cultural lines.

Drawing from his work on Jesus as a philosopher, Pennington explains that the New Testament doesn’t reject or capitulate to Greco-Roman philosophy—it stands alongside it, often outthinking and outlasting it. In contrast to Stoicism’s emotional detachment and denial of suffering’s reality, the Bible presents a profoundly realistic vision: a God who enters the world, values the body, and promises the restoration of creation through Shalom.

Pennington argues that Jesus—especially in Matthew’s Gospel—functions as a public philosopher. In moments like the Sermon on the Mount or debates with religious elites, Jesus offers strikingly rational, ethical, and metaphysical responses to life’s biggest questions.

This episode introduces not only a new CHT fellow, but a vision of Scripture as intellectually vibrant, emotionally honest, and endlessly translatable.

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Faith, Innovation, and the Church's Future: Rethinking Tech and Ministry (Kevin Kim) Ep. #231 Dec 18, 2025

What happens when the tech elite of Silicon Valley use their skills to serve the church?

In this episode, Kevin Kim, executive director of Crazy Love Ministries and founder of Basil Tech, joins Dr. Dru Johnson to explore a radical idea: that technology, creativity, and innovation can be spiritual gifts to build up the Body of Christ. Drawing from his experiences with venture capitalists, Stanford designers, and software engineers from Apple and Google, Kevin explains how Basil Tech mobilizes volunteers to serve ministries with world-class digital tools.

But this isn’t just about flashy apps or slick design. Kevin critiques the tech industry’s isolating, consumeristic culture—and shares how discipleship must involve “laying down your non-fungible gift” for the good of others. From reimagining the sermon to redesigning urban ministry in East Palo Alto, his work shows that thoughtful innovation, when grounded in Scripture and humility, can fuel mission and foster true community.

“We don’t make anything better—we’ve made things worse at Basil,” Kevin jokes, “but we try to help amazing people do amazing things.” This conversation invites listeners to rethink what tech can do—not as an idol, but as a tool in God’s hands.

Connect with Kevin Kim's Basil Tech here:

https://www.basiltech.org/

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Chapters:

00:00 Journey into Tech and Faith
02:44 Innovation in the Church
06:08 Understanding Innovation vs. Technology
08:56 Reimagining Ministry Practices
11:52 The Role of Technology in Modern Missions
15:00 Bazel Tech: Bridging Faith and Technology
17:55 Discipleship in the Tech World

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Getting Egypt Out of Israel: The Exodus Plagues as Spiritual Formation (Avery & Wadholm) Ep. #230 Dec 11, 2025

Are the ten plagues just divine punishment? Or are they intended to form a people?

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson sits down with Dr. Rick Wadholm and Pastor Dalton Avery, co-authors of Plagued by Faith, to explore a more layered vision of the plague narratives in Exodus. Rather than merely acts of judgment, the plagues are portrayed as formative, disruptive events that unmake Egypt’s religious, political, and economic worldview—and detach Israel from it.

The Nile River, Egypt’s source of life, is turned to blood not only to confront Pharaoh, but to sever Israel’s spiritual dependence on Egypt. The calendar is reset at Passover, reorienting the people’s very sense of time and community. These acts weren’t random—they were theological statements shaping Israel’s identity, even while challenging Egypt’s gods .

As Dalton notes, “The Lord is not out here just doing violence for no reason, but there’s redemptive heart, there’s redemptive intent in every action of the Living God” . Rick adds, “Behold the face of God who sends plagues… somehow to offer a re-visioning of these stories as revealing this God”.

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Chapters:

00:00 The Genesis of the Book
03:22 God vs. The Gods: Understanding the Plagues
06:17 Deconstruction and Identity: The Plagues' Purpose
09:27 The River: A Symbol of Life and Security
18:26 Calendar and Community: Redefining Time for Israel
21:51 Lessons from Egypt: What to Keep and What to Leave Behind
23:38 The River's Dual Role: Life and Death
25:22 Corporate Responsibility and Divine Justice
27:02 Women of Courage: Midwives and Prophetic Resistance
30:49 Jesus and the Exodus: Parallels and Fulfillment
35:47 The Ongoing Plagues: Lessons from Israel's Journey
39:48 Plagued by Faith: Understanding God's Intentions

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Hebraic Thought On The Big Screen? Biblical Themes in Non-Biblical Movies (Dru Johnson) Ep. #229 Dec 04, 2025

What makes a movie biblical—even if it’s not about the Bible?

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson explores that question with a curated list of films that reflect deep biblical structures—movies that “get what’s going on in Scripture” better than many that explicitly reference the Bible. These aren’t Sunday School adaptations—they’re gritty, layered, and emotionally raw.

Dru walks through Tree of Life (a meditation on Job and Genesis 1), A Serious Man (Job again, but existential and tragic), East of Eden (sibling rivalry and human depravity), Magnolia and The Breakfast Club (portraits of generational sin), American History X (a dark inversion of Proverbs 1–9), and Memento and Coco (explorations of memory against the backdrop of Deuteronomy). Even No Country for Old Men gets a nod for evoking the lawless chaos of Genesis 6.

Throughout, Dru challenges listeners to rethink what it means to portray biblical themes—not by surface references, but by engaging with the deep moral, literary, and theological structures that Scripture unveils.

If you’ve ever wondered whether “secular” films can teach us something profoundly biblical, this is your list.

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Chapters:

00:00 Exploring Biblical Themes in Film
02:47 The Tree of Life and Job's Perspective
06:02 Noah: Misinterpretation of Divine Signs
07:07 East of Eden: Human Depravity and Sibling Rivalry
09:19 Magnolia: Generational Sin and Its Consequences
11:52 No Country For Old Men
13:46 Breakfast Club: The Impact of Parenting
17:13 American History X: The Search for Guidance
20:28 Memory and Identity in Film
23:01 Coco: The Importance of Remembrance

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Equip the Church to Think Biblically: How Your Church Can Fuel This Work Dec 03, 2025

In this special message to church leaders, Dr. Dru Johnson speaks directly to pastors, elders, and ministry teams preparing next year’s budget. As someone who has served as a full-time pastor, he knows how critical and crowded those budget conversations can be—and he makes a case for why the Center for Hebraic Thought deserves a place in your missions giving line.

“If you’ve passed along our articles, if you’ve listened regularly to our podcast or shared it with others,” Dru says, “then you’ve already seen the value.” The Center doesn’t just produce The Biblical Mind podcast—it also creates Biblical Thinks workshops, a scholar-guided book series for lay readers, and the Hebraic Thought Community for shared reading, discussion, and formation.

These resources are built to equip the Church to think along the grain of Scripture and extend its wisdom into everyday life. But that mission depends on ministry partners who believe in the vision—and are willing to give.

Whether it’s $100/month or more, churches can help sustain this growing movement by adding the Center for Hebraic Thought to their missions budget. As Dru says, “Whatever you can do will help, and we thank you very much for partnering with us.”

Follow This Link to Become A Church Partner:

https://hebraicthought.org/church-partners/

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Fueling Hebraic Thought: How You Can Help Dec 02, 2025

In this candid and heartfelt message, Dr. Dru Johnson steps out from behind the mic to speak directly to you—the listener, the learner, the potential donor.

“I’m a recurring giver. I actually pay to do this work.” That’s how strongly he believes in the mission of the Center for Hebraic Thought. In this short but powerful donor appeal, Dru explains how the Center’s podcast, public resources, book series, and workshops are made possible—not by salaries or institutional budgets—but by the generous support of people like you.

He outlines the unique work of the Center: promoting a biblical way of thinking that’s structurally rich, theologically grounded, and practically wise. From the top-20-ranked Biblical Mind Podcast, to a growing Hebraic Thought Community, to partnerships with publishers and institutions, this movement is growing—but it needs your help to continue.

“I used to be embarrassed to ask,” Dru says, “but I’m not anymore.” Whether you’re a scholar, pastor, teacher, or lifelong learner, you can become part of the team by giving a one-time gift—or becoming a recurring donor like Dru.

If you’ve ever benefited from the work of the Center, now’s the time to give back.

One Time Gifts:
https://hebraicthought.org/give

Recurring Donations (and the gift of the Donor Book Series):
https://hebraicthought.org/donor-book-series

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Why Scholars Gather: A Tour Through the Wild World of Biblical Academia (Dru Johnson) Ep. #228 Nov 27, 2025

What actually happens when thousands of biblical scholars descend on a single convention center?

In this unusual and behind-the-scenes episode, Dru Johnson roams the floor of the Society of Biblical Literature Annual Meeting in Boston to ask a range of publishers and scholars—from Langham Publishing to Prairie College—what these conferences are really like. From the excitement of free books to the dread of reading papers aloud in monotone, this episode reveals both the inspiring and ridiculous sides of academic gatherings.

Dr. Cindy Parker shares the joy of “seeing people from Australia and Israel and just Europe all over the place,” while also admitting, “there’s a lot of ego in the room.” Megan Roberts, a professor in Canada, offers a more practical critique: “Just Google how many words is a 20-minute presentation. Then do it.”

Meanwhile, publisher reps express their weariness with “sweaty” scholars who show up on the final day asking, “What here is free?” And Dr. Chris Skinner offers a thoughtful defense of the format: “The only way you can become better is by being around people who are already better than you.”

This episode is honest, occasionally surprising, and always hilarious —your personal audio tour of biblical scholarship in the wild.

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Chapters:

00:00 Langham Publishing's Mission and Focus
05:56 Scholarly Behavior and Conference Dynamics
08:56 Presentation Skills and Audience Engagement
11:56 The Value of Academic Conferences
14:52 Endorsements and Marketing in Academic Publishing
17:46 The Psychology of Scholarly Interactions

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Where Is God? Eucharist, Trauma, and Divine Presence in Poland (Ela Wyrzykowska) Ep. #227 Nov 20, 2025

Where is God present—and how do believers describe it?

In this thoughtful and poetic episode, Polish theologian Dr. Elżbieta Łazarewicz-Wyrzykowska joins Dru Johnson to reflect on theology, trauma, and spiritual presence. From her childhood in Warsaw—where bullet holes and tanks marked the legacy of war—to her academic path through Hebrew Bible, literary theory, and empirical psychology, Elżbieta has never stopped asking difficult questions.

They discuss her research into the Book of Amos using the philosophical insights of Mikhail Bakhtin, seeing God as the “author” of Israel and disobedience as a form of anti-creation. They also explore her current interdisciplinary work in the psychology of religion: “We tried to measure where people locate God’s presence. Eucharist was the one thing people named first.”

She reflects on the tension between empirical categories and theological meaning: “God is present in special objects” didn’t resonate. But “God is present in the Eucharist”? That made sense. “I still wanted to be faithful to what the community told me.”

This episode is a masterclass in humility, scholarship, and the quiet brilliance of a scholar working at the intersection of Scripture, philosophy, trauma, and pastoral care.

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction and Personal Background
02:49 Warsaw: A City of Resilience
06:06 The Impact of Historical Trauma
08:41 Academic Journey in Hebrew Bible Studies
11:49 Literary and Philosophical Approaches to the Hebrew Bible
14:35 Interdisciplinary Work and Its Challenges
17:38 Exploring Bakhtin's Influence
20:31 The Book of Amos: A Case Study
23:42 Theological Measures and Empirical Research
26:35 The Role of Practical Theology
29:45 Conclusion and Future Directions

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On Biblical Masculinity, The Boy Crisis, And The Church's Missed Mission (Anthony Bradley) Ep. #226 Nov 13, 2025

For decades, churches have built youth ministries around entertainment and behavior management. But what if all the data says that’s the wrong approach?

In this powerful episode, Dr. Anthony Bradley joins Dru Johnson to reflect on 25 years of experience working with youth, revisiting the PBS documentary Raising Cain and what it reveals about the neglected emotional lives of boys. He shares stories from his time as a high school teacher, where the boys most emotionally adrift weren’t from broken homes—but from Christian families.

Bradley argues that youth ministry has largely failed, citing data showing a 50–60% dropout rate among church youth group kids. “What the data shows is that spiritual formation happens at home,” he says. “And instead of churches focusing on the youth, they need to be focusing on Malachi 4:6.”

He calls for churches to replace youth isolation with intergenerational community. “They need to physically experience almost in a sacramental sort of sense what a godly family is.” Boys don’t just need Bible studies—they need fathers, mentors, uncles, and grandfathers.

This episode is an urgent wake-up call to rethink how we raise boys, how we disciple families, and how the church can once again become the place for forming whole people.

For Anthony's Substack, click this link:
https://anthonybbradley.substack.com/

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Chapters

00:00 The Impact of 'Raising Cain' on Understanding Boys
02:59 Cultural Shifts in Masculinity and Education
05:43 The Emotional Lives of Boys
08:39 The Crisis of Boys in Education
11:34 Masculinity and Emotional Expression
14:38 The Role of Culture in Defining Masculinity
17:39 Christian Perspectives on Masculinity
20:24 Historical Context of Masculinity in Christianity
25:44 The Shift in Youth Ministry Focus
28:29 The Role of Parents in Faith Formation
32:21 Creating Family-Centric Church Activities
35:18 The Importance of Intergenerational Relationships
40:16 Integrating Youth into Family Life
45:07 The Need for Community and Mentorship
50:52 Long-Term Faith Development and Patience

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What The Chosen Gets Right (And Wrong): Archaeology, Pharisees, and Color (Jeffrey Garcia) Ep. #225 Nov 06, 2025

Was Peter’s hometown ever really lost—and have we just found it?

In this episode, archaeologist and scholar Dr. Jeffrey Arroyo García joins Dru Johnson to explore how archaeology reshapes our understanding of the Gospels, popular media like The Chosen, and the portrayal of first-century Judaism. Drawing on his years excavating at El-Araj—the site increasingly believed to be biblical Bethsaida—Jeff walks us through how ancient inscriptions, Crusader-era churches, and Roman bathhouses reveal the story beneath the shoreline.

But the episode takes a provocative turn when they discuss the show The Chosen. Jeff praises its storytelling and vibrancy but calls attention to a visual pattern with troubling roots: “The Pharisees are generally in black… And when they come into contact with Jesus… they wear lighter colors.” He explains how this “othering” of Pharisees—even subtly—echoes centuries of Christian anti-Jewish tropes.
The conversation is honest, layered, and generous—balancing artistic license with historical clarity. “If you are interested in Jesus or a follower of Jesus,” Jeff warns, “then you can’t be a Pharisee—just from clothing alone.”

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Chapters:
00:00 Exploring Archaeology and the Galilee
02:48 Pharisees and Their Presence in Galilee
05:40 The Search for Bethsaida
08:48 Significant Discoveries at El-Araj
11:30 Cultural Context and New Testament Insights
14:21 The Chosen: Storytelling and Historical Accuracy
17:31 Creative Speculation in Biblical Portrayals
20:37 The Role of Pharisees in the New Testament
23:23 Touring Israel: Insights and Experiences

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Creation, Rest, and Reign: What Genesis Meant to the Ancient World (Rachel Booth Smith) Ep. #224 Oct 30, 2025

What if Genesis 1 wasn’t about the origin of matter—but the enthronement of God? And what if “rest” wasn’t the end of work, but the beginning of reign?

In this episode, Rachel Booth Smith, author of Rest Assured, joins Dru Johnson to explore how the Genesis creation story contrasts with other ancient Near Eastern accounts. With a storyteller’s gift and a pastor’s heart, Smith explains how comparing biblical cosmogony to Egyptian or Hittite myths can actually strengthen, not weaken, our faith in the text. “Sometimes the campfire would get very upset,” she says, imagining ancient neighbors reacting to Genesis’ claim that the sun and moon are just objects—not gods.

She also unpacks the significance of Sabbath as sacred reign, not divine nap time. “Rest is like saying sitting down at a throne because everything is operating correctly,” she explains. The seven-day structure wasn’t arbitrary—it was holy, “marked out,” signaling both the order of creation and the rhythm of life.

Most importantly, Rachel shows how this re-reading of Genesis leads us to trust. “If I can get to the end of a Sabbath and realize you are God and I am not, I feel like that was a win.”

For Rachel's book "Rest Assured," head here:

https://www.moodypublishers.com/rest-assured/

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction
01:08 The Genesis of Understanding Creation
03:55 Bridging Ancient and Modern Perspectives
07:08 The Concept of Rest in Creation
10:18 Sabbath: A Rhythm of Work and Rest
13:22 The Nature of God’s Power and Authority
16:01 Cultural Contexts and Creation Narratives
19:23 The Role of the Sun and Other Deities
22:07 The Significance of Seven in Creation
25:14 The Uniqueness of Genesis' Creation Account
28:06 The Implications of a Non-Conflict Creation
31:16 The Importance of Trusting God
34:09 Conclusion: Insights from Ancient Near Eastern Literature

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Israel’s Rituals, God’s Needs, and the Covenant That Changed Everything (John Walton) Ep. #223 Oct 23, 2025

What happens when a senior biblical scholar changes their mind—publicly? In this episode, Dr. John Walton returns to explain key shifts in his thinking, especially about Genesis, the temple, and covenant theology.

He unpacks two major paradigm shifts: first, that Genesis creation isn’t about material origins, but about functional order; second, that Genesis 3 isn’t even about sin—it’s about humanity’s search for order. He also revisits his earlier view that the cosmos should be seen as a temple, now offering a more nuanced perspective: “I’m very happy to think about this as establishing sacred space… without necessarily extending the temple metaphor to the concept of boundaries.”

Walton explains how ancient Near Eastern concepts shape the biblical text, but cautions against overgeneralizing differences between Israel and its neighbors. “God does not have needs. Don’t think that way. Everybody else around you thinks that way.” He argues Israel’s rituals weren’t about feeding the deity, but forming covenant relationship—and this, he claims, is unique in the ancient world.

More than anything, Walton champions a commitment to evidence over dogma. “If your commitment is to the evidence, your commitment has to be to cognitive flexibility.”

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Chapters:

00:00 Paradigm Shifts in Biblical Interpretation
03:03 The Temple and Creation
05:45 Understanding Ancient Near Eastern Thought
08:45 Cognitive Flexibility in Scholarship
11:58 Rituals and Their Significance
14:54 The Role of Ancient Near Eastern Backgrounds
17:54 Literary Structures in Biblical Texts

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Cultural Rivers, Order, and Covenant: Tools For Reading Scripture Well (John Walton) Ep. #222 Oct 16, 2025

In this thought-provoking episode, Walton explains his “cultural rivers” metaphor—how each culture swims in its own current of values, assumptions, and logic. We can’t read the Bible through modern, Western eyes without missing what mattered most to ancient audiences. Genesis, for example, isn’t about material origins but about God bringing order to a disordered world.

From Genesis 1–11, which Walton calls a unified pursuit-of-order narrative, to covenant as God’s chosen method of establishing order in Israel, this episode reshapes how we think about law, sin, impurity, and even concepts like raʿ (evil). Walton shows how words like shalom, menucha, and tov are all part of a spectrum of order—not morality.

He also addresses how Jesus and Paul recontextualize the Torah, why Exodus opens with a surprising parade of female heroes, and how poetry preserves communal memory in songs like Exodus 15. Whether you’re new to Walton’s “Lost World” series or a longtime reader, this episode offers fresh insight into how Scripture’s deepest themes emerge from its ancient context.

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Chapters:

00:00 Exploring Methodological Approaches to Texts
02:02 Cultural Rivers: Understanding Context in Ancient Texts
05:19 Genesis 1-11: The Pursuit of Order
08:04 The Role of Women in Exodus: A Unique Perspective
11:04 Intertextuality: Connections Between Genesis and Judges
14:12 The Concept of Order in the Torah
17:10 Jesus and Paul: Recontextualizing the Torah
20:16 The Significance of Women in the Exodus Narrative
23:20 Joseph and Daniel: Conceptual Connections
26:07 Final Thoughts and Future Discussions
32:50 Poetry And Prose Intermixed

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Unlocking The Deep Structures of Scripture: The Bible's Unified Message (Joshua Berman) Ep. #221 Oct 09, 2025

What if the Bible was written with deep structural patterns designed to echo across generations—economically and theologically?

In this riveting episode, Dr. Joshua Berman joins Dru Johnson to reveal how literary design, verbal repetition, and cultural continuity make the Bible not a patchwork, but a carefully composed unity. Through examples ranging from Genesis and Judges to Exodus and Samuel, Berman shows how the same words, images, and narrative arcs—like “sword and bow” or reversal of blessing—carry deliberate echoes and layered meanings across the text.

They also explore gendered storytelling in Exodus 2, the function of poetry in biblical prose, and why embedded songs like Exodus 15 don’t contradict the narrative—they expand it. Berman explains how ancient readers trained in repetition and orality would have caught these cues instantly, and why modern readers miss them.

This episode is also a personal one, as Berman shares how leading Jewish tours in Egypt deepened his faith in the biblical text—and even led to unexpected moments of hope across religious and national divides.

This is a masterclass in reading Scripture deeply—linguistically, literarily, and spiritually.

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Chapters:
00:00 Exploring Methodology in Biblical Texts
04:06 Understanding Deep Structures in Scripture
09:15 The Role of Language and Translation
14:21 Genesis: Unity and Structure
19:02 Theological Implications of Interwoven Narratives
21:56 Exploring Sodom and Gomorrah's Legacy
27:11 The Role of Women in Exodus
33:09 Contradictions in Moses' Life
39:23 Archeological Work In Egypt

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Attachment Theory, God’s Presence, & The Image of God: How God Heals Us (Geoff Holsclaw) Ep. #220 Oct 02, 2025

What does attachment theory have to do with discipleship, theology, or the church? According to Dr. Geoff Holsclaw, more than we realize.

In this episode, Holsclaw—a pastor, theologian, and co-author of Landscapes of the Soul—joins Dru Johnson to explore how neuroscience and interpersonal attachment can illuminate both human development and the biblical story. From early childhood bonds to the way we experience God’s presence, he explains how secure and insecure attachments shape how we relate to others, ourselves, and the divine.

The conversation dives into the four “attachment landscapes” (Jungle, Desert, War Zone, and Secure), and how trauma or neglect in childhood can subtly shape a lifetime of relational patterns—unless there is healing. But the episode offers real hope: not only is repair possible, but Scripture itself shows us the way. Holsclaw connects attachment theory to key biblical moments—from God’s face in the Psalms to Jesus’ sending of the disciples.

This is not a self-help take on neuroscience. It’s a theologically rich exploration of embodied faith, community healing, and how God repairs the ruptures in our lives.

To get your copy of Landscapes Of The Soul:
https://www.tyndale.com/p/landscapes-of-the-soul/9798400505546

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Chapters:

00:00 Neuroscience in Counseling and Theology
06:19 Understanding Attachment Theory
14:04 The Impact of Attachment Styles
20:13 Scriptural Foundations of Attachment
26:26 Jesus and Attachment Dynamics
33:50 Healing and Growth in Attachment
40:57 Community and Relationships in Healing

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Pharisees, Torah, and Sacrifice: What We Miss When We Misread the Law (Paul Sloan) Ep. #219 Sep 25, 2025

Did Jesus come to cancel the Law of Moses—or fulfill it? In this compelling episode, Dr. Paul Sloan joins Dru Johnson to challenge one of the most persistent misunderstandings in modern Christianity: the idea that Jesus and Paul opposed the Torah.

Drawing from his book Jesus and the Law of Moses, Sloan explains how legalism, misunderstanding of impurity, and modern Christian readings of Paul have distorted our view of the biblical law. Instead of a rigid checklist of 613 rules, the Torah was a wisdom-guided, relational framework that assumed the realities of sin, forgiveness, and impurity—and offered ways to address them.

They explore how Jesus engaged in sophisticated legal reasoning, why Paul continued to participate in the temple sacrificial system even after his conversion, and why the “burden” of the law has been misunderstood. Sloan also critiques how Pharisees are caricatured as villains, with damaging theological consequences—especially for how Christians view modern Jews and Judaism.

This episode brings clarity to what Jesus and Paul were really doing with the law—and why recovering this perspective is crucial for theology, biblical interpretation, and interfaith understanding today.

To get your copy of Jesus And The Law Of Moses:
https://bakerpublishinggroup.com/products/9781540966384_jesus-and-the-law-of-moses

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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding the Law and Jesus' Perspective
02:22 Hurdles in Understanding the Law
05:13 Legalism and Its Misinterpretations
08:20 The Case for Jesus and Paul Abolishing the Torah
11:35 Exploring Dietary Laws and Their Implications
14:33 The Nature of Law and Forgiveness
17:31 Ritual Purity and Its Misconceptions
20:24 Pharisees: Villains or Misunderstood Figures?
23:25 Modern Implications of Ancient Interpretations
24:43 Paul's Observance of the Torah
25:33 The Role of Sacrifices in Early Christianity
31:40 Jesus and the Sacrificial System
34:04 Cultural Critique: Rabbinics and Jesus' Teachings

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Is "Eye For An Eye" Christian? Jesus, Justice, and The Limits of Vengeance (Dru Johnson) Ep. #218 Sep 18, 2025

“Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.” We’ve all heard the phrase—but what does it actually mean in the Bible? In this episode, Mike Tolliver and Dr. Dru Johnson unpack the principle of Talion—Lex Talionis—and show why it’s one of the most misunderstood elements of biblical justice.

They trace the concept across Leviticus, Exodus, and Deuteronomy, exploring how this principle wasn’t about vengeance or equal retaliation, but a wisdom-guided restraint on power and a warning to those in authority: “Don’t abuse the vulnerable.” Far from being a hard legal code, eye-for-eye was a principle, surrounded by interpretive examples—not a statute for rigid enforcement.

The conversation moves from the Torah to Jesus’ teachings in Matthew 5, where Jesus isn’t rejecting the Old Testament, but interpreting it through its own inner logic. Jesus deepens the Torah’s call: instead of demanding retaliation, he teaches mercy and vulnerability—mirroring the Torah’s own ethic of protecting the powerless.

From ancient village courts to modern Twitter mobs, this episode challenges us to rethink how justice, mercy, and retaliation intersect in biblical ethics—and in our own lives.

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Chapters:
00:00 Understanding Biblical Justice: The Principle of Talion
02:13 Exploring the Context of Eye for an Eye
05:15 The Role of Retributive and Restorative Justice
08:26 Examining the Instances of Lex Talionis
11:20 The Implications of Class in Biblical Law
13:45 The Shift in Perspective: Power Dynamics in Justice
16:36 Witnesses and the Nature of Justice
19:39 God's Role in Justice and Retribution
22:22 Connecting Lex Talionis to the Imago Dei
25:41 Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Law
28:32 The Kingdom of Heaven: A New Perspective on Justice
31:28 The Floor and Ceiling of Biblical Law
34:43 Practical Applications of Biblical Justice Today

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Feasting on Hope: Sacraments, Trauma, and Formation in the Church (Hannah King) Ep. #217 Sep 11, 2025

Is communion just a symbolic snack—or a mysterious, formative act of grace?

In this episode, Rev. Hannah King, an Anglican priest and author of the upcoming Feasting on a Hope: How God Sets a Table in the Wilderness, joins Dru Johnson to explore why the Lord’s Supper is essential for the Christian life.

Hannah shares her journey from evangelical church spaces into Anglicanism, unpacking how the Eucharist re-centered her understanding of salvation as bodily, communal, and ongoing. She shares deeply personal stories—of trauma, grief, and healing—that reveal how the sacrament offers more than information: it offers union with Christ.

Together, they tackle difficult questions: Will weekly communion become rote? Why is the Eucharist so often sidelined in modern worship? What do we gain when we treat the Table as the center, not the add-on? And how does this sacrament speak to survivors, children, skeptics, and the spiritually weary?
Hannah reminds us that even when we feel nothing, the Table is still doing its work. Like Sabbath and marriage, it shapes us slowly—but surely.

For more on Hannah's work:
https://www.hannahmillerking.com/

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Chapters:
00:00 Understanding Barriers to Worship
03:06 The Role of Liturgy in Worship
06:14 The Nature of Worship Experience
08:58 Structure of Anglican Worship
12:11 The Importance of the Eucharist
15:07 Embodied Faith and Redemption
22:21 Exploring the Nature of the Soul and Body
24:40 The Familial Nature of Faith and Community
26:20 The Dynamics of Church and Class
28:12 Rituals, Liturgy, and Their Impact on Worship
30:31 The Eucharist: A Meal of Fellowship and Equality
35:18 Embracing Mystery in the Lord's Supper
39:25 The Centrality of the Eucharist in Christian Worship

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Theology in the Mother Tongue: Oral Bible Translation and Embodied Faith (Fausto Liriano) Ep. #216 Sep 04, 2025

What if the Bible isn’t something you read—but something you hear, memorize, and perform?

In this groundbreaking episode, Dr. Fausto Liriano shares his work translating the Bible into indigenous languages without writing it down. Through oral Bible translation projects in Guatemala, Mexico, and the Philippines, Dr. Liriano helps communities internalize Scripture in their own languages—through performance, storytelling, and memorization.

He explains how this work challenges not only Western assumptions about literacy and theology, but also confronts colonial patterns in missionary work, translation philosophy, and even what counts as “canonical” Scripture. The episode explores how indigenous languages often mirror Hebrew’s poetic ambiguity more than Spanish or English do, why repetition and redundancy are theological tools, and how people with no formal education are memorizing and performing hours of biblical material with precision and reverence.

Dr. Liriano also reflects on the need for contextual theology in Latin America—one that isn’t imported from the North, but developed by the people, for the people. He calls for a theology of corruption, of wholeness, and of embodied participation in God’s word.

For more on Fausto's work:
https://translation.bible/staff-profile/fausto-liriano/

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Latin American Theology
01:59 Misunderstandings of Latin American Theology
04:47 The Need for Contextual Theology
07:41 Corruption and Its Impact on Theology
10:43 The Role of Indigenous Voices in Theology
13:52 Oral Bible Translation in Guatemala
16:47 The Value of Orality in Cultural Contexts
25:08 Translating for Indigenous Cultures
27:57 Exploring Orality in Biblical Texts
30:13 The Process of Oral Bible Translation
34:57 Community Engagement and Performance
37:41 The Importance of Oral Tradition
42:14 Navigating Colonialism and Canonization
44:29 The Heart of Translation: Language and Connection

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The Illusion of Intelligence: Why AI Can’t Replace Embodied Life (Noreen Herzfeld) Ep. #215 Aug 28, 2025

Is AI intelligent—or just artificial? In this provocative episode, Dr. Noreen Herzfeld, a rare scholar of both computer science and theology, joins Dru Johnson to expose what most people overlook about artificial intelligence. Drawing from her recent book The Artifice of Intelligence, she challenges the mythology of AGI (artificial general intelligence) and critiques the environmental, social, and theological costs of current AI use.

Herzfeld argues that large language models are plateauing and that the real danger isn’t a superintelligence—it’s our uncritical, energy-intensive use of biased software masquerading as neutral tools. She warns of AI’s water and fossil fuel demands, its disembodied affirmation loops, and the illusion that chatbots are viable substitutes for therapists, pastors, or friends.

Rooting her critique in Christian theology, Herzfeld defends the value of embodiment, human uniqueness, and community. She sees modern AI and transhumanist dreams as a return to ancient Gnostic heresies—disembodied, elitist, and ultimately dehumanizing.

This episode is essential for anyone navigating the ethical, spiritual, and ecological implications of AI. You’ll come away more equipped to use AI critically—and to resist the false promises of digital utopia.

For Noreen's Book "The Artifice of Intelligence":
https://www.fortresspress.com/store/product/9781506486901/The-Artifice-of-Intelligence

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Chapters:
00:00 The Current State of AI Technology
02:21 Environmental Impact of AI
07:55 Understanding AI and AGI
16:36 The Dangers of Chatbots
19:42 Embodiment and AI
30:47 Future of AI and Its Societal Role

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Becoming God’s Family: Against Church Hurt, Isolation, and Autonomy (Carmen Imes) Ep. #214 Aug 21, 2025

Can you be a Christian without the church? In this timely episode, Dr. Carmen Imes argues forcefully—and pastorally—that Christianity without community is a contradiction. Drawing from her new book Becoming God’s Family, she and Dru Johnson explore why so many people are walking away from church and what it would take to draw them back.

From church hurt to spiritual abuse to toxic celebrity culture, Carmen doesn’t shy away from the reasons people leave. But she also offers theological and pastoral wisdom on why we can’t give up on the church. They explore biblical stories of failed community, why Hagar’s story matters, and what healthy faithfulness looks like in a flawed body.

They also discuss when it’s time to leave a church, how American and global cultures can distort biblical community, and why true belonging means discomfort, difference, and even lament. Drawing on stories from her life and ministry, Carmen makes the case that church isn’t about getting what we want—it’s about becoming who we’re meant to be.

For Carmen Imes' substack:
https://substack.com/@carmenjoyimes

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Chapters:

00:00 The Importance of Community in Faith
01:37 Addressing Church Disconnection Post-Pandemic
04:22 The Role of Scripture in Community Dynamics
07:17 Navigating Church Hurt and Abuse
10:36 Finding Hope in Faithful Communities
13:46 The Broader Picture of Church Life
16:38 Understanding God's Family Beyond the Church
18:39 The Power of Community and Discipleship
20:03 Cultural Blind Spots and Family Loyalty
21:42 The Radical Nature of Church Family
25:24 The Ananias and Sapphira Lesson
27:59 The Role of Green Rooms in Church
31:10 Lamenting Together as a Family
32:45 The Messiness of Community
35:34 The Quest for Like-Mindedness
37:32 Diversity in Church and Community
41:58 Creative Solutions for Multicultural Worship

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Literature and Idealism: Or, How The Bible Is A "Thick" Story (Karen Swallow Prior) Ep. #213 Aug 14, 2025

What do Tolkien, vocation, and gritty literature have in common? In this conversation, Dru Johnson talks with literary scholar Dr. Karen Swallow Prior about why Christians often gravitate toward fantasy and romantic ideals—and why that can be a problem. Karen critiques the elevation of genre fiction like The Lord of the Rings as literary canon and urges Christians to engage “thick texts” that challenge us and train us to read Scripture more deeply.

They discuss how modern reading habits—dominated by email, social media, and skimmable articles—undermine our ability to understand both literature and biblical texts. Karen argues that literature forms our posture toward the world, and that our spiritual and moral imagination needs the grounding realism found in great novels and gritty stories.

The conversation pivots to Karen’s new book on vocation, exploring how distorted expectations around passion, work, and calling are leaving young people disillusioned. Instead, she calls for a deeper, more historically grounded view of labor, meaning, and responsibility.

This episode is a must-listen for those interested in education, theology, literature, and the subtle ways imagination shapes our lives of faith.

For more of Karen's literature:
https://karenswallowprior.com/

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Chapters:

00:00 Exploring Literature and Vocation
02:37 The Role of Literary Criticism in Cultural Contexts
05:44 Tolkien, Lewis, and the Literary Canon
08:46 Understanding Thick Texts: Literature and the Bible
12:04 The Importance of Reading Skills in Biblical Studies
14:55 Interpreting the Bible: Layers of Meaning in Texts
19:49 The Importance of Humility in Understanding Literature
24:00 Navigating Vocation and Career Expectations
29:54 The Reality of Menial Jobs and Their Value
33:37 Balancing Idealism and Grit in Literature
38:47 Finding Vocation in the True, Good, and Beautiful

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Tribes, States, & Empires: Scripture’s Vision for a Virtuous Political Order (Yoram Hazony) Ep. #212 Aug 07, 2025

In this second conversation with political philosopher Yoram Hazony, we dive deeper into the biblical concept of nationhood, wrestling with listener-submitted questions on nationalism, empire, and political virtue. Hazony responds to critiques and clarifies his position: biblical nationalism is not about racial purity or imperialism, but about the virtue of limited, self-governing peoples—unified not by ethnicity but by shared laws, traditions, and faith.

Hazony distinguishes biblical terms like am and goy, explores the status of converts like Ruth, and dismantles the modern racialized understanding of nationhood. He emphasizes that scripture assumes nations will be internally diverse, but not infinitely so—there must be a dominant center that holds people together.

The conversation also explores why biblical literature, not Greco-Roman thought, shaped the American constitutional order, and why the prophets critique empire while affirming the need for some form of the state. As Hazony puts it, “Purity is not the goal. Faithful unity is.”

For the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy article Yoram mentioned in the interview, access the PDF here:
https://journals.law.harvard.edu/jlpp/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/2025/06/Hammer-FINAL_TC-JH-YRH-edits.pdf

For more of Yoram's literature:
https://www.yoramhazony.org/
https://x.com/yhazony

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Chapters:

00:00 The Virtue of Nationalism
05:19 Understanding Nation in Biblical Context
10:42 The Role of Genetics and Kinship in Nations
15:25 Diversity and Unity in National Identity
20:09 Power Dynamics in Heterogeneous Nations
25:23 Biblical Foundations of Western Political Thought
38:14 The Christian Heritage of the West
41:15 Separation of Powers and the Mosaic Constitution
44:37 Separation of Church and State
48:29 The Concept of Empire
59:00 The Role of Kings and the State
01:00:17 Eschatology and the Future of Nations

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Just War, Christianity, and The Call to Serve: The Ethics of Military Service (Darren Duke) Ep #211 Jul 31, 2025

Should Christians serve in the military? In this sobering and nuanced episode, Dru Johnson sits down with retired Colonel Darren Duke—Marine Corps Special Operations commander and intelligence officer—to unpack this deeply personal and morally complex question. Drawing from over 30 years of military experience, Duke shares his evolving view of military service, from Cold War patriotism to the hard-earned disillusionment of post-9/11 combat.

He offers insight into how symbols like the Punisher, Spartan helmets, and Valhalla became coping mechanisms for troops struggling with the trauma and moral ambiguity of prolonged warfare. Duke also warns young Christians to prepare not only for the battlefield but for the morally challenging culture within the military itself.

This conversation does not prescribe easy answers but outlines how one might think Christianly about enlistment, national service, and the weight of violence in a fallen world. Listeners will walk away better equipped to consider military service with sober realism, moral clarity, and theological depth.

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Military Service and Personal Background
09:54 Reflections on Military Service and Christian Identity
17:52 The Complexity of War and Its Justifications
20:13 The Weight of War: Moral Trauma and Reflection
22:12 Existential Questions in Military Service
24:26 Navigating Morality in Combat
28:12 The Christian Perspective on Military Service
32:27 Defending the Defenseless: A Moral Duty
35:32 The Role of Leadership in Military Ethics

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Building a Movement: Why the Church Needs Hebraic Thought—and What We’re Doing About It Ep. #210 Jul 24, 2025

In this update episode, Dru Johnson and Mike Tolliver pull back the curtain on the work happening at the Center for Hebraic Thought. From filing 501(c)(3) nonprofit status and building a stellar advisory board, to launching a redesigned website and reviving in-person workshops, the CHT has been quietly preparing for long-term growth and broader influence.

They discuss the newly relaunched Hebraic Thought Community (HTC) on Facebook—already hundreds strong—and the four activities that bring the community together: highlighting member-created resources, sharing weekend reading, gathering weekly for public listening of Scripture, and hosting scholar Q&As. This digital community is sparking cross-disciplinary conversations, surfacing unexpected gems from laypeople, and reimagining how Christians listen to the Bible together.

Dru and Mike also explain why listening (not just reading) Scripture in community is a powerful and ancient discipline—and why it’s missing from most churches today. They reflect on the joy of watching Scripture come alive in unexpected ways through these communal practices.

They close with a call to support: whether through recurring giving, hosting a workshop, or sharing the word, CHT is building something bigger than any one person—something rooted in Scripture and flourishing in community.

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction
00:03 Updates on The Center for Hebraic Thought
03:03 Community Engagement and Workshops
06:03 Hebraic Thought Community Initiatives
09:04 Public Listening of Scripture
11:55 The Importance of Listening to Scripture
15:10 Website Updates and Future Plans
17:53 Funding and Support for the Center
20:58 Workshops and Community Involvement

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Jesus Under Every Rock? Rethinking Christ-Centered Reading & Preaching (Chris Wright) Ep #209 Jul 17, 2025

Should Christians look for Jesus in every verse of the Old Testament—or are we missing the point when we do?

In this wide-ranging and practical conversation, Dr. Christopher J. H. Wright, Langham Partnership’s Global Ambassador and one of the world’s leading Old Testament scholars, joins Dru Johnson to explore the difference between Christocentric and Christotelic readings of Scripture. Wright reflects on common instincts Christians have—either skipping the Old Testament or trying to make every text about Jesus—and explains what we lose when we fail to respect the voice and context of the original authors.

Wright argues for a more faithful reading that respects the historical drama of God’s covenantal journey with Israel, leading to but not eclipsed by Christ. He explains how Luke 24 affirms that the Scriptures point to Jesus, but that doesn’t mean every verse must be “about” him. Instead, Scripture forms a unified story with Jesus as its destination, not its hiding place.

The conversation ends with a powerful case for why the global church, especially in the majority world, has crucial theological insights to offer—and why Western Christians should be ready to learn.

For more from Chris Wright:

https://christopherjhwright.com/

For more about Langham Partnership:

https://us.langham.org/

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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding the Old Testament's Relevance
02:01 Challenges in Interpreting the Old Testament
05:26 The Importance of Context in Biblical Interpretation
08:09 The Role of Jesus in Old Testament Texts
11:00 Exegetical Approaches to the Old Testament
14:08 The Historical Unfolding of God's Promises
21:06 The Transition from Law to Grace
22:32 The Journey of Scripture Towards Christ
24:57 Understanding the Role of the Gospels and Acts
27:00 The Nature of Biblical Narrative
29:01 Langham Partnership: Resourcing Global Churches
32:37 The Importance of Preaching in the Majority World
36:00 Listening to Global Voices in Theology

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The NAR, Power, and Prophecy: Inside America’s Forgotten Christian Movement (Matthew Taylor) Ep. #208 Jul 10, 2025

What if the most politically influential Christian leaders in America aren’t the ones you’ve heard of?

In this eye-opening conversation, Dr. Matthew D. Taylor joins Dru Johnson to explain how the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and related charismatic networks reshaped modern evangelicalism—and helped deliver the presidency to Donald Trump. Taylor, a scholar of religion and politics, traces how televangelists, prophets, and apostolic leaders operating outside denominational structures built a new Christian populist movement with real spiritual and political power.

Far from being fringe actors, these leaders—like Paula White and Lance Wallnau—hold enormous sway through media networks and prophetic authority. Taylor explores how modern prophecy, celebrity culture, and populist theology have created a system resistant to critique, driven by revival language and unregulated influence. He explains why evangelical elites misjudged the NAR’s reach and how their dismissal of these leaders as “hucksters” only deepened the divide.

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to the New Apostolic Reformation Movement
02:50 Understanding Pushback and Misconceptions
05:46 Defining the New Apostolic Reformation
09:21 The Role of Charismatic Leaders in Politics
12:10 Trump and the Evangelical Connection
15:09 The Seven Mountain Mandate and Its Implications
18:05 Cyrus Prophecy and Its Significance
21:14 The Divide Between Evangelical Elites and Grassroots
26:19 Theological Divides in Modern Evangelicalism
27:40 Historical Context of Evangelicalism
29:06 Populism and the Rise of Trump
31:29 Scriptural Interpretation and Prophecy
35:19 The Role of Modern Prophecy
38:33 Leadership Dynamics in Non-Denominational Spaces
43:41 Christian Nationalism vs. Christian Supremacy
46:35 The Early Church's Ethos vs. Modern Power
50:58 Path Forward for Evangelicals

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Hollywood, Scripture, and Politics: Joan Didion and the Power of Story (Alissa Wilkinson) Ep. #207 Jul 03, 2025

What do Hollywood, Joan Didion, and the Bible have in common?

More than you’d expect. In this episode, New York Times film critic and author Alissa Wilkinson joins Dru Johnson to discuss the life, work, and worldview of Joan Didion, one of the most influential American writers of the 20th century. Wilkinson’s new book, We Tell Ourselves Stories, explores how Didion made sense of chaos through narrative—and what her work reveals about faith, trauma, politics, and cultural memory.

Together, Alissa and Dru explore Didion’s insight that stories are not just entertainment; they are survival mechanisms, tools we use to impose order on a chaotic world. But is that all Scripture is—just another human-made narrative? Wilkinson offers a careful reflection on the limits and power of storytelling, showing how Didion’s work can challenge both Christian belief and secular mythmaking.

They also dive into conspiracy theories, the fusion of politics and Hollywood, and the rise of nostalgia as a cultural sickness. From John Wayne to 9/11 to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, this episode traces the invisible threads between the stories we inherit and the truths we cling to.

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Chapters:

00:00 Exploring Joan Didion's Influence
02:10 The Chaos of Life and Storytelling
05:08 The Impact of California on Didion's Work
08:15 Didion's Perspective on Conspiracy Theories
11:24 Hollywood's Political Landscape and Didion's Critique
14:26 The Intersection of Politics and Entertainment
17:29 Didion's Views on Feminism and Fixed Ideas
20:26 The Role of Nostalgia in Storytelling
23:24 The Modern Political Narrative
26:17 Conspiracies and Their Impact on Society
29:27 The Nature of Truth in Storytelling
32:10 Didion's Legacy in Film and Media
35:20 The Future of Storytelling in Politics

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Wine, Worship, and Craftsmanship: A Biblical Theology of Alcohol (John Dunne) Ep #206 Jun 26, 2025

Was wine in the Bible just a calorie source—or something far richer? In this fascinating conversation, Dr. John Anthony Dunne, author of The Mountain Shall Drip Sweet Wine: A Biblical Theology of Alcohol, joins Dru Johnson to explore how wine and alcohol shaped ancient Israel’s culture, theology, and imagination.

Dr. Dunne traces how biblical wine reflected not only the scarcity and agricultural hopes of ancient life, but also a tradition of craftsmanship, connoisseurship, and divine blessing. Together they unpack why biblical wine wasn’t just functional—it was symbolic of abundance, peace, and God’s favor.

From fermentation methods and ancient storage to the surprising case for white wine at the wedding at Cana, this episode challenges modern assumptions about alcohol in Scripture. Dunne explores why the biblical world viewed wine as inherently miraculous, why production was tied to the land promise, and how modern communion links us to Canaan’s terroir in unexpected ways.

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction
00:42 Christianity and Alcohol
02:52 Cultural Perspectives on Alcohol Consumption
06:01 Theological Implications of Alcohol in Scripture
08:58 Wine Production and Its Significance
12:00 The Craft of Winemaking in Ancient Times
14:57 Grapes: Beyond Wine Production
18:06 Environmental Factors in Viticulture
20:58 The Symbolism of Wine in Biblical Texts
22:06 The Importance of Climate in Winemaking
25:11 Exploring Ancient Grape Varieties
27:07 The Fermentation Process of Ancient Wines
35:04 The Significance of Jesus' First Miracle
45:10 Wine as a Connection to the Land

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Is Nationalism Biblical? Yoram Hazony on Nations, Empires, and Justice (Yoram Hazony) Ep. #205 Jun 19, 2025

Is nationalism always bad—or does the Bible have a more nuanced view of nations, borders, and political life? In this fascinating episode, Israeli philosopher Yoram Hazony joins Dru Johnson to explore the political vision of the Old Testament, from the Table of Nations in Genesis to the prophetic hope of nations learning from Israel in peace.

Hazony explains how the Bible’s anti-empire stance emerges from the stories of Babel, Assyria, and Babylon—and why God’s vision for humanity includes independent nations with borders, traditions, and space to seek Him freely. Together they unpack how Israel’s kingship, laws, and tribal structure offer a model of checks, balances, and moral limits on power.

The conversation also tackles modern questions: What can Christians today learn from biblical nationalism? How does this compare with movements like Christian nationalism in the U.S.? And why does Hazony see so many modern Christian intellectuals missing the Old Testament’s political teachings?

For more of Yoram's literature:
https://www.yoramhazony.org/
https://x.com/yhazony

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Nationalism and the Bible
00:56 Biblical Foundations of National Identity
09:32 Political Philosophy in the Old Testament
12:43 Critiques of Nationalism in the Hebrew Bible
20:42 The Nature of Sin and Human Corruption
22:40 Nationalism and the Biblical Perspective
26:08 Borders and National Independence
40:01 Governance and the Role of Law
45:28 Christian Nationalism: Perspectives and Concerns

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Do You See What I See? Worship, Joint Attention, and Being Human (Cockayne & Salter) Ep. #204 Jun 12, 2025

Is church just a place to think about God—or are we wired to worship together? In this groundbreaking episode, theologian Dr. Josh Cockayne and developmental psychologist Dr. Gideon Salter join Dru Johnson to explore how human beings are made for joint attention, and why gathering for worship is a deeply embodied, social necessity.

Drawing from their book Why We Gather, the conversation unfolds how infants develop the skill of “joint attention”—the ability to notice something with someone else—and how this same capacity is essential to biblical worship, from Genesis to Revelation. They argue that worship isn’t merely cognitive or emotional—it’s communal, embodied, and neurologically formative. Togetherness isn’t a nice-to-have; it’s the foundation of how we know God and the world.

From communion rituals and infant behavior to liturgical design and online church, the episode provides a practical, psychologically grounded, and theologically rich vision of church that challenges both individualism and shallow expressions of “community.”

For their book "Why We Gather," see the publisher's website here:

https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481322911/why-we-gather/

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Worship and Individual Experience
02:59 The Role of the Body in Worship
06:02 Joint Attention and Its Importance
09:20 The Collaboration Between Psychology and Theology
12:12 Understanding Joint Attention in Worship
15:17 The Impact of Joint Attention on Community Worship
18:05 Liturgy and Joint Attention in Practice
21:09 Theological Implications of Joint Attention
24:04 Cultural Jointness and Worship
27:06 Conclusion and Reflections on Worship
27:42 Children's Participation in Church
28:42 Exploring Joint Attention in Liturgical Settings
30:57 The Role of Community in Worship
32:36 Understanding Jointness and Joint Attention
35:12 The Dynamics of Participation in Worship
36:18 Theological Perspectives on Joint Attention
38:12 The Biological and Social Aspects of Gathering
41:44 Critiques of Theoretical Frameworks in Worship

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How Artists Think Biblically: Liturgies, Ritual, and the Weight of Words (Douglas McKelvey) Ep. #203 Jun 05, 2025

What gives someone the right to script your prayers? In this powerful conversation, Douglas McKelvey, author of the bestselling Every Moment Holy liturgical series, joins Dru Johnson to unpack the spiritual and theological journey behind his work. From a childhood steeped in neo-charismatic theology to a disillusioning college experience at Oral Roberts University, McKelvey shares how God used a profound unraveling—what many today might call “deconstruction”—to rebuild a biblically coherent faith through unexpected mentors and communities.

Listeners learn how McKelvey became part of the Art House Foundation and later the Rabbit Room, drawing from the legacies of Francis Schaeffer, Edith Schaeffer, and Andrew Peterson to create a community of artists grounded in Scripture. Along the way, he opens up about the fear and trembling that should attend writing liturgies—and what it means to write prayers people will carry into their most vulnerable moments.

This episode explores beauty, hospitality, ritual, and the theological integrity behind the words we say to God. Whether you're a liturgy lover, creative, or just someone seeking coherent theology after chaos, this is an episode that will stay with you.

Learn more about the Art House and Rabbit Room here:
https://www.arthousenashville.com/our-story
https://www.rabbitroom.com/

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to the Rabbit Room
02:22 The Evolution of the Rabbit Room
05:17 Community and Connection in the Rabbit Room
08:29 The Significance of Northwind Manor
11:31 Personal Journey and Theological Foundations
14:10 Navigating Doubt and Deconstruction
23:08 Charlie Peacock and the Art House Foundation
26:29 The Art House and Its Influence
31:04 The Physical Space of the Art House
34:20 Theological Foundations for Artists
36:33 Every Moment Holy: A Journey of Prayer
43:13 The Impact of Ritual in Prayer
50:43 Reflections on the Craft of Prayer
52:18 The Rabbit Room: A Hub for Creativity

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Is Abraham a Hero or a Warning? How Genre Makes or Breaks Your Bible Reading (Andy Judd) Ep. #202 May 29, 2025

What if our biggest biblical misunderstandings come from reading the right words in the wrong way? In this episode, Old Testament scholar Dr. Andy Judd joins Dru Johnson to unravel the complex and often misused concept of genre in biblical interpretation. Drawing from his background in English literature and law, Dr. Judd explains how many theological debates, misreadings, and even dangerous interpretations arise not from misused Hebrew dictionaries—but from unspoken assumptions about genre.

Why do readers assume Abraham’s behavior is exemplary? Why do sermons treat biblical laws like modern legal codes? Why do people interpret apocalyptic visions as historical predictions? From Genesis to Judges, Paul’s letters to Revelation, Judd shows that failing to ask, “What kind of text is this?” is often where interpretation goes off the rails.

Blending humor, literary theory, and deep biblical insight, Judd offers practical ways to become better “travelers” in the ancient biblical world—learning to coordinate with texts the way we coordinate with traffic rules in a new country.

Andy Judd's personal website can be found here:
https://www.andyjudd.com/

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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:54 The Journey into Genre Studies
03:26 Misinterpretations and Conflicts in Biblical Genre
06:26 Understanding Narrative and Ethical Frameworks
10:18 The Role of Genre in Biblical Interpretation
12:39 Defining Genre: Conventions and Contexts
14:37 Cultural Contexts and Genre Navigation
18:35 The Boomerang Test: A Practical Approach to Genre
24:32 Deep Structures and Genre Regulation
28:08 Understanding Genre in Scripture
33:54 The Role of Genre in Biblical Interpretation
39:22 Biblical Law: A Unique Genre
43:56 The Social Function of Biblical Law
49:42 Wisdom and the Interpretation of Law

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Storge, Justice, and the Ten Commandments: Rethinking Biblical Love (Mike Tolliver) Ep. #201 May 22, 2025

Is loving your family first a biblical idea—or a betrayal of Jesus’ call to love your neighbor? In this thought-provoking episode, Mike Tolliver—Executive Director of the Center for Hebraic Thought—joins Dru Johnson to explore his developing PhD thesis on Storge (family love), the kinsman-redeemer, and what biblical justice actually looks like.

Drawing on Torah, philosophy, and early Christian texts, Mike argues that Storge love is not only natural—it’s essential to a functioning society, and that Israel’s family-based justice system was designed to eliminate categories like “orphan” and “widow.” He explores why Paul uses the metaphor of adoption—and not kinsman-redeemer—for Gentile inclusion, and why the Ten Commandments are saturated with family ethics.

From Sophie's Choice-style sermon illustrations to questions about circumcision, baptism, and ethnic election, this episode unpacks the implications of what it means to love your kin without devaluing the stranger.

As Mike prepares for PhD work, his big question is: What does rightly ordered family love look like in Scripture—and what happens when it gets misordered?

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Chapters:

00:00 Exploring Academic Pursuits and Career Paths
05:47 The Kinsman Redeemer: A Social Safety Net
14:35 Storge and Kinsman Redeemer in Biblical Context
19:54 Theological Implications of Kinship and Election
27:34 Exploring the Promise of Descendancy
29:03 Navigating the Path to a PhD
30:56 The Challenge of Proposal Writing
31:57 Understanding Storge in Hebraic Thought
39:07 The Role of Storge in the Ten Commandments
41:07 Stranger Love vs. Family Love
43:55 Moral Dilemmas in Love
49:56 The Future of Intergenerational Family Focus

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Managing Fame, Faith, and the Stage: Inside the (Christian) Music Industry (Nick Barre) Ep. #200 May 15, 2025

What does it mean to call something “Christian music”? Nick Barré has spent decades in the music industry—from working at EMI with early Switchfoot to managing major names like Casting Crowns, KB, Brandon Heath, and more. In this 200th episode of The Biblical Mind, he joins Dru Johnson to reflect on the Christian music label, the tension between calling and category, and how artists navigate faith and fame.

Nick argues that labeling music—or restaurants or plumbers—as “Christian” may do more harm than good. He shares why genre categories are a business necessity but spiritually unhelpful, and why the most important questions artists must answer are about calling, audience, and identity—not chart placement.

From spiritual burnout to public affirmation, from the temptations of platform to the dangers of envy, Nick shares pastoral, industry-hardened wisdom on how to guide artists into longevity and spiritual wholeness. He even offers advice for aspiring Christian musicians—and what it really means to “show, not tell” when pursuing a creative calling.

Nick Barre's Company "Proper Management" can be found here:

https://www.propermanagement.net

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Chapters:
00:00 Defining Christian Music
03:11 The Evolution of Music Genres
06:10 Navigating the Music Industry
08:57 The Dangers of Labeling
12:09 The Role of Artists in Ministry
15:16 The Impact of Fame on Identity
18:24 Identifying Unique Gifts in Artists
25:41 Exploring Diverse Artist Portfolios
28:29 Navigating Hard Conversations in the Music Industry
31:05 Defining Success in the Arts
33:15 The Challenge of Artistic Compromise
37:06 Understanding Market Dynamics in Music
40:22 Fragmentation of the Music Industry
46:39 Advice for Aspiring Christian Artists

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Why Intellectual Humility Is the Key to Understanding Scripture (Matt Whitman) Ep. #199 May 08, 2025

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson sits down with Matt Whitman, host of The Ten Minute Bible Hour, to explore why so many Christians—and skeptics—struggle with Scripture. Whitman shares what he’s learned from engaging millions online: people are often afraid to be wrong, shaped by graceless experiences in church and cancel culture in the wider world. The solution? Modeling curiosity, empathy, and intellectual humility.

Whitman opens up about his own faith journey, the impact of church hurt, and why he makes space for disagreement and exploration in his content. From deconstructing popular biblical themes to highlighting the beauty of traditions outside his own, Matt argues that deep scriptural engagement thrives in environments where it’s okay not to have all the answers.

Together, Dru and Matt delve into themes like biblical coherence, the importance of interpretive grace, and what it means to approach the Bible not as experts, but as learners. Their conversation models the very ethos they preach: thoughtful, generous dialogue rooted in the belief that God’s grace extends to our minds—not just our sins.

For More of Matt Whitman and the Ten Minute Bible Hour: https://www.youtube.com/@UC3vIOVJiXigzVDA2TYqaa0Q
https://www.facebook.com/thetenminutebiblehour
https://www.instagram.com/tenminutebiblehour
https://www.twitter.com/MattWhitmanTMBH
https://www.threads.com/@mattwhitmantmbh

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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:54 Resistance to the Bible and Church Experiences
04:57 Cultural Resistance and Historical Context
07:44 Navigating Hurt and Church Experiences
10:56 Empathy and Understanding in Conversations
14:21 Normalizing Being Wrong
17:20 Internal Cohesion in Christianity
25:38 Universal Themes in the Bible
32:44 Navigating Biblical Interpretation and Truth
35:43 The Complexity of Biblical Truth
37:55 The Pressure of Pastoral Performance
42:14 The Challenge of Authenticity in Teaching
45:32 Modeling Intellectual Grace and Humility
49:40 Creating a Gracious Learning Environment
53:16 The Nature of Knowledge and Learning in Faith

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Evolution and Identity: A Jewish Perspective on Science and Belief (Rachel Pear) Ep. #198 May 01, 2025

What happens when science, religion, and education collide? In this episode, Dr. Rachel Pear shares her remarkable journey from growing up in New York’s modern Orthodox Jewish community to researching how evolution is taught and received across Israeli society.

A scholar of science education and prehistoric archaeology, Rachel discusses how Jewish, Christian, and Muslim communities in Israel grapple differently with the question of human origins. Why do some teachers avoid the topic altogether? Why do secular and religious students draw such hard lines around what’s “acceptable” to believe? And how do family, community, and national identity shape scientific acceptance?

Rachel also shares her experience presenting three distinct rabbinic views on evolution in schools, showing students that Jewish thought isn’t monolithic—and that questioning is part of the tradition. She explores the cultural weight of science, the legacy of eugenics, and how educators can create space for real dialogue in science classrooms.

Whether you’re an educator, a religious thinker, or just curious about how evolution meets identity, this episode offers a rich, honest look at a complex conversation that’s still evolving.

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Rachel's Journey
02:49 Exploring Prehistoric Archaeology and Cultural Contexts
05:48 The Intersection of Evolution and Religion
08:48 Cultural Perspectives on Evolution in Israel
11:57 The Role of Education in Science and Religion
14:57 Diverse Views on Evolution in Arab Schools
17:58 The Complexity of Science and Cultural Identity
20:50 Reflections on Science, Culture, and Religion
27:27 Navigating Values in Education
32:20 The Complexity of Teaching Evolution
35:53 Epistemology and the Scientific Method
40:51 Cultural Perspectives on Evolution
45:32 The Intersection of Tradition and Modernity

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Is Evolution a Dirty Word? Muslim Perspectives on Science and Religion (Shoaib Malik) Ep. #197 Apr 24, 2025

Is the relationship between Islam and science as well-developed as it is in Christianity? Not even close—but that’s changing. In this episode, Dr. Shoaib Ahmed Malik, Lecturer in Science and Religion at the University of Edinburgh, joins Dru Johnson to share the emerging field of Islam and science, focusing on the hot topic of evolution.

Shoaib unpacks the historical development of Islamic engagement with science, tracing it from early encounters with Western scientific frameworks to the present. He explains why the Islamic world lacks infrastructure like textbooks, academic chairs, and journals for the science-religion conversation—and why that’s finally beginning to change.

But what about evolution? Shoaib shares why it remains a highly sensitive subject in Muslim-majority countries (including stories of professors losing jobs over it) and how Muslim views differ from Christian ones, especially around original sin, Adam, and human suffering.

This is an honest, fascinating look at how Muslims are navigating modern science, why cultural and religious taboos persist, and how Shoaib’s work is shaping new conversations at the intersection of Islamic theology and science.

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Shoaib Ahmed Malik's Journey
03:11 Transition from Engineering to Humanities
06:00 Teaching Experience in the UAE
09:14 Pursuing Philosophy, Science, and Religion
12:18 Publishing and Academic Recognition
15:11 Navigating Career Changes and New Opportunities
18:29 Exploring Science and Religion Conversations
26:43 Navigating Conversations with Students
27:29 Understanding Islam: Sunni vs Shia
30:19 The Contemporary Muslim World: Sunni and Shia Dynamics
31:34 The Intellectual History of Islam
35:17 Muslim Perspectives on Science and Religion
39:01 Islamization of Science: A Discourse Emerges
42:48 The Development of Islamic Science Education
44:25 Evolution and Its Reception in the Muslim World
48:11 Unique Questions Muslims Ask About Evolution

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Can Muslims, Jews, and Christians Talk About Science and Scripture? (Dru Johnson) Ep. #196 Apr 17, 2025

What happens when you put 15 scholars—scientists and theologians, Muslim, Jewish, and Christian—in a room to talk about creation? In this episode of The Biblical Mind Podcast, Dr. Dru Johnson shares his experience launching the Abrahamic Theistic Origins Project in Oxford.

Far from being a formal academic conference, the gathering focused on “enduring collegial co-learning”—building trust and curiosity across disciplines and faith traditions. The participants explored how evolutionary biology, genetics, astrophysics, and artificial intelligence intersect with theological questions about human uniqueness, creation, and divine action.

Dru explains why religious identity didn’t hinder the conversation—it enriched it, and why the bigger challenge was translating between scientists and theologians. He also shares a fascinating insight on Neanderthals and menopause, and how that single biological feature opens a window into intergenerational care, legacy, and biblical values.

The project raises bold questions: Can we build a biblical philosophy of science? Does Hebraic thought inform scientific methods? And what does it look like to think with Scripture—not just about it—in a scientific age?

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Chapters

00:00 Exploring Creation Theology and Science
02:58 Building Collegial Relationships Among Scholars
05:43 Navigating Interfaith Dialogues
08:52 Understanding Diverse Perspectives on Origins
13:59 The Intersection of Science and Theistic Beliefs
21:40 Christian Views on Human Origins
30:08 Pragmatism and Empiricism in Biblical Thought

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Syndicated: Jesus and Jewish Law (Logan Williams and Paul Sloan) Ep. #195 Apr 10, 2025

Was the Mosaic Law a burdensome set of rules meant to be broken? Did Jesus overthrow the Torah—or fulfill it? In this special episode of The Biblical Mind Podcast, we revisit the pilot episode of the Jesus and the Jewish Law podcast, hosted by Paul Sloan and Logan Williams. Together, they walk through seven widespread misconceptions about the Law and how these misunderstandings distort our reading of both the Old and New Testaments.

You’ll hear why the Law was never meant to be a ladder to earn salvation, how it was designed to maintain God’s presence among His people, and why ritual purity doesn’t equal sin. They also explore the difference between distinction and exclusion, how the Law does not uniformly obligate all humans, and how Jesus builds on—not breaks—the Torah’s ethical depth.

If you’ve ever wrestled with questions about the sacrificial system, purity laws, Gentile inclusion, or what Jesus really meant in the Sermon on the Mount, this episode offers a clear, accessible, and richly Hebraic guide to reading the Law like Jesus did.

Jesus and Jewish Law Podcast:
Apple = https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jesus-and-jewish-law/id1791111864

Spotify = https://open.spotify.com/show/1QCKgVOnEmtfFwRQtWlBSV

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction
02:01 Misconceptions About the Law: An Overview
05:57 Debunking Misconceptions: The Nature of the Law
12:08 Understanding Impurity and Its Implications
17:59 The Role of Sacrifice in the Law
20:02 Conclusion and Future Topics

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ICYMI - Wisdom of Primal Peoples in the Era of World Christianity (Jangkholam Haokip) Ep. #194 Apr 03, 2025

This episode was originally published on November 11, 2022. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.

Christianity is a truly global religion, and every strand of Christianity has its own theological emphases. Western Christians tend to focus on individual salvation and the question of what happens when we die. But as we amplify other Christian voices, we find that the riches of the gospel might stretch far beyond our original conceptions.

In this episode, Dru interviews Dr. Jangkholam Haokip, an Indian theologian, author, and former professor. Growing up in Churachandpur, Manipur, in Northeast India, Jangkholam converted to Christianity as a child. Drawing on his experiences with indigenous Indian culture and religion, he had the opportunity to develop a unique perspective on Christian theology, including Scripture's portrayal of sin's effects on nature, the value of yet-unheard perspectives, and the way that the gospels can affect the lives of whole communities.

After his long career as a professor at Union Biblical Seminary in India, Jangkholam has founded the Bethesda-Khankho Foundation, which aims to transform indigenous Indian communities through education and poverty outreach. He also contributed to the recent book Voices from the Margins: Wisdom of Primal Peoples in the Era of World Christianity.

For More of Jangkholam Haokip Content:
https://jlamboihaokip.wordpress.com/

https://langhamliterature.org/author-bio?author_id=5923

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Show notes:

0:00 Introduction

1:22 Converting to Christianity

5:03 Further education and understanding the gospel

8:51 Individualism in Western Christianity

15:09 Sin and the health of nature

20:10 Tribal Indian thought in the biblical texts and Western theology

25:48 The value of indigenous theology

29:47 Christianity as a help for Indian history, identity, and culture

31:05 On Jangkholam's new book Voices from the Margins: Wisdom of Primal Peoples in the Era of World Christianity

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Is God Really Unchanging? Challenging Classical Theism’s View of God (R.T. Mullins) Ep. #193 Mar 27, 2025

Is God emotionless and unchanging? Many systematic theologians have long argued that God is completely impassible—meaning He cannot feel, suffer, or be influenced by creation. But is this truly what the Bible teaches?

In this episode, Dr. R.T. Mullins joins The Biblical Mind Podcast to challenge traditional ideas about God’s nature, emotions, and engagement with the world. He explains how philosophy has often shaped theology more than scripture, why systematic theologians ignore biblical descriptions of God’s emotions, and what it actually means to call God all-powerful and all-knowing.

Dru and R.T. explore the hidden assumptions behind classical theism, why ancient theologians rejected the idea that God could suffer, and whether modern theology needs a reset. Mullins also discusses how our view of God shapes how we pray, worship, and think about suffering.

If you’ve ever wondered why theology sometimes feels disconnected from the Bible, or why certain doctrines sound more like philosophy than scripture, this episode will challenge you to rethink how we describe God.

For More of RT Mullin's Content, Check Out His Podcast:
https://www.rtmullins.com/podcast

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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding the Doctrine of God
03:21 Concepts of God: Models and Attributes
06:23 The Role of Scripture in Systematic Theology
09:15 Historical Perspectives on God's Attributes
12:21 Philosophical Underpinnings of Theological Claims
15:12 The Challenge of Defining God's Perfections
18:04 Empathy and Knowledge in God's Nature
21:13 The Intersection of Philosophy and Scripture
24:11 Concluding Thoughts on God's Nature
30:53 The Nature of God's Communication
33:08 Empathy and the Divine: A Theological Dilemma
36:18 Impassibility and the Perfection of God
38:45 The Role of Empathy in Hebrew Moral Philosophy
41:44 The Disconnect Between Systematic Theology and Biblical Texts
45:28 Cultural Perspectives on Biblical Literature
47:16 Upcoming Projects: Debates and Collaborative Works

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Why We Struggle to Read the Bible—And How to Fix It (Alex Goodwin) Ep. #192 Mar 20, 2025

What if the way we format and structure the Bible is actually making it harder to read? In this episode, Alex Goodwin joins The Biblical Mind Podcast to discuss how chapter breaks, verse numbers, and footnotes—while useful for study—can actually disrupt the natural flow of Scripture.

Alex shares his journey from marketing to Bible publishing, how his first exposure to serious theology transformed his faith, and why modern Bible formatting has fundamentally changed how people engage with Scripture. He and Dru explore how early Christians and Jews experienced the Bible (hint: it wasn’t through personal quiet times with a study Bible), why reading big sections matters, and how removing unnecessary “additives” can help us better understand the biblical story.

This episode also tackles the difference between Bible literacy and Bible fluency, the power of listening to Scripture, and why engaging the Bible in community leads to richer understanding. If you’ve ever struggled with Bible reading, this conversation will challenge and inspire you to rethink how you interact with Scripture.

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Chapters

00:00 From Marketing to Ministry: A Journey of Faith
04:47 The Impact of Formatting on Bible Reading
09:10 Bible Sales vs Bible Literacy
13:21 The Bible Reset
17:34 Listening vs. Reading: Engaging with Scripture in New Ways
20:41 Pursuing Biblical Fluency
27:08 The Concept of a Bible Reset
31:25 Reevaluating Church Practices
36:52 Engaging with Scripture in Community
40:55 The Role of the Congregation in Biblical Literacy

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Faith, Politics, and Media: Rethinking Christian Political Involvement (Kaitlyn Schiess) Ep. #191 Mar 13, 2025

Are we mistaking media consumption for political engagement? In this episode, Kaitlyn Schiess joins The Biblical Mind Podcast to challenge the way Christians think about politics, faith, and media. She explains why binge-watching C-SPAN or endlessly scrolling Twitter doesn’t make us politically engaged—but actually forms us into people less capable of real advocacy.

Dru and Kaitlyn discuss the modern obsession with national politics, why Christians ignore their local communities, and how the church provides a model of meaningful engagement. Instead of trying to "change the world" through social media outrage, Kaitlyn argues that real political involvement means knowing your neighbors, understanding local government, and prioritizing embodied relationships.

They also explore the role of Christian media consumption, asking whether 24-hour news, partisan social feeds, and political influencers have become a form of secular discipleship. How can Christians discern which voices are trustworthy? And how can the church offer a healthier alternative?

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Kaitlyn Schiess' Content
https://www.holypost.com/
https://www.facebook.com/kaitlyn.schiess
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https://twitter.com/KaitlynSchiess

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Chapters

00:00 Misunderstandings in Political Engagement
03:45 The Impact of 24-Hour News Cycle
07:13 Agency and Exhaustion in Political Involvement
09:46 Local vs. National Political Engagement
13:52 The Role of Community and Church
16:17 Listening to Trustworthy Voices
25:02 Understanding Local Politics Through Community Engagement
26:14 The Importance of Recognizing Underlying Narratives
28:18 The Challenge of Political Discourse in Faith Communities
31:09 The Role of Stories in Shaping Political Beliefs
34:44 Navigating Conspiracy Theories in Faith Contexts
37:12 The Need for Meaningful Conversations in Churches
40:00 The Impact of Media Consumption on Relationships
41:51 Reality TV and Its Moral Implications

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From the Five Percent Nation to Biblical Scholar: CHT Fellow Hakeem Bradley Ep. #190 Mar 06, 2025

What if the Bible isn’t meant to be neatly packaged and easily explained? In this episode, CHT Fellow Hakeem Bradley joins The Biblical Mind Podcast to discuss how engaging scripture means leaning into tension rather than eliminating it. He explains why asking better questions leads to deeper understanding and why forcing Jesus into every Old Testament passage can sometimes do more harm than good.

Bradley also shares his personal story—growing up in the Five Percent Nation, a movement that sees the Black man as divine, and how a surprising mentorship relationship led him to faith in Jesus. His journey from deep skepticism to biblical scholarship gives him a unique perspective on how to approach scripture without assumptions or shortcuts.

The conversation explores how biblical authors thought, why Jesus himself had to read scripture in context, and how reading the Bible as a tension-filled conversation—rather than a collection of easy answers—can reshape faith and theology.

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Hakeem Bradley's Content
https://hakeembradley.substack.com/

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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
02:08 Navigating Questions on Creation and Biblical Interpretation
06:01 The Role of Tension in Understanding Scripture
10:01 Hakeem's Journey from Five Percenter to Follower of Jesus
18:31 The Importance of the Old Testament in Understanding Jesus
22:15 Personal Journeys in Biblical Understanding
23:11 The Challenge of Connecting Old Testament to Jesus
25:50 Understanding Biblical Texts on Their Own Terms
29:31 The Role of the Bible Project in Modern Scholarship
33:34 Exploring the Catholic Epistles and Their Significance
38:47 Intertextual Connections in Biblical Texts

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The Contemporary Worship Music Pipeline, or "Where Did The Psalms Go?" (Marc Jolicoeur) Ep. #189 Feb 27, 2025

Who decides what worship songs we sing in church? It turns out, worship music is a massive industry, and the way songs make it from a Nashville songwriting room to a Sunday morning service might surprise you.

In this episode, Marc Jolicoeur joins The Biblical Mind Podcast to break down the business of contemporary worship music (CWM). He explains how four major megachurches dominate the industry, why most modern worship songs are written by teams of professionals rather than individual artists, and how CCLI licensing and copyright structures shape what gets sung in churches.

But is this market-driven approach shaping worship in unhealthy ways? Dru and Marc discuss whether the emotional tone of worship music has shifted, why lament and imprecatory psalms are almost absent from today’s songs, and whether churches should return to singing scripture itself.

Is the worship music we sing today more about marketing than theology? And what would happen if the Psalms were reintroduced into Sunday services?

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Marc Jolicoeur's Content
https://marcjolicoeur.substack.com/podcast

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction
00:27 The Landscape of Worship Music
04:25 The Role of Songwriters and Publishing
10:35 Market Penetration of Worship Songs
16:33 The Influence of Megachurches on Worship Music
21:11 The Evolution of Christian Music
25:48 Worship Music vs. Performance Music
28:38 The Role of Ritual in Worship
31:28 Psalms and Their Relevance in Modern Worship
35:29 Lament in Worship Music
45:16 The Challenge of Lament in Worship
49:55 Navigating Worship Leadership and Emotional Contexts
54:44 Imprecatory Psalms and Modern Worship
01:00:47 The Role of Specificity in Worship Lyrics

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Listening to the Bible: Why Scripture Was Meant to Be Heard (Dru Johnson) Ep. #188 Feb 20, 2025

Most of us read the Bible with our eyes—but what if we’re missing something essential by not listening to it? In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson challenges the modern tendency to engage Scripture primarily as a written text, arguing that the Bible was designed to be heard. From the Torah readings of Moses to the public proclamation of Paul's letters, Scripture has always been an aural experience—one meant to be absorbed in community rather than private, silent reading.

Dr. Johnson explains why listening changes how we understand Scripture, uncovering literary structures like repetition, parallelism, and chiasms that are far easier to hear than to see. He also explores the cognitive science behind reading vs. listening, showing why oral engagement helps us retain and interpret biblical texts more deeply.

Could reclaiming the practice of hearing Scripture together revolutionize the way we experience the Bible? This episode dives into why the church should return to communal listening, what ancient Jewish and Christian traditions teach us, and how modern worship services might be reshaped by putting Scripture at the center—not just as a text to analyze, but as a living word to hear.

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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:03 The Natural Habitat of Scripture
04:15 Hear and Obey in Hebrew - The Shema
09:05 Active Listening and Vigorous Discussion
10:17 Listening vs. Reading: A New Perspective

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The Rapture, the Mark of the Beast, & Christian Eschatology—Fact & Fiction (Matt Halsted) Ep. #187 Feb 13, 2025

What if much of what we believe about the end times is shaped more by modern speculation than by biblical theology? In this episode, Dr. Matthew L. Halsted joins The Biblical Mind Podcast to debunk common misconceptions about eschatology, including the rapture, the mark of the beast, and the role of the Middle East in biblical prophecy.

Halsted and Dru Johnson explore how American Christianity has often read Revelation through a me-centered lens, focusing on personal fears rather than the broader biblical narrative of renewal and justice. They discuss the history of end-times speculation, tracing it from the 16th century to modern prophecy teachers, and why discipline in reading scripture is crucial to avoiding theological confusion.

Drawing from his book The End of the World as We Know It, Halsted unpacks how early Christians understood eschatology and why the Bible’s emphasis is not on escaping the world but on God’s renewal of creation.

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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:03 Understanding Eschatology in American Christianity
10:19 What Happens When You Die?
16:59 The Nature of Post-Mortem Existence
28:25 Its The End of The World As We Know It
29:06 Pandemic Fears and Speculations
31:17 The Mark of the Beast and Public Response
33:45 Dispensationalism, The Rapture, and Tim Lahaye
38:23 Rapture Theology and Its Implications
45:53 Political Dimensions of Eschatology
50:47 Future Projects and Research Directions

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How Scripture Reads Scripture: Understanding Biblical Intertextuality (Brent Strawn) Ep. #186 Feb 06, 2025

How does the Bible interpret itself? In this episode, Dr. Brent Strawn joins The Biblical Mind Podcast to explore intertextuality—the ways biblical authors intentionally or unconsciously connect their writings to earlier texts. Strawn breaks down different types of intertextuality, from direct citations (like Jesus quoting Psalm 22) to subtle patterns that only emerge when we read scripture holistically.

Together with Dru Johnson, Strawn unpacks how intertextuality deepens biblical meaning and why recognizing these connections can transform the way we understand scripture. They also discuss the surprising link between Solomon and the Mark of the Beast (666) and how Revelation critiques imperial power using the legacy of Israel’s wealthiest king.

Strawn argues that biblical authors weren’t just making random allusions—they were teaching us how to read scripture well. If we can recognize these hyperlinks, we can move beyond surface-level readings and grasp the depth of biblical theology.

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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:14 Understanding Intertextuality: Strong vs. Weak
02:07 The Unintentional Connections Between Texts
05:13 Patterns in Biblical Texts: A Deeper Look
08:08 Intertextuality and Its Interpretive Significance
11:10 Criteria for Evaluating Intertextual Connections
14:30 The Importance of Context in Scripture
17:19 The Dangers of Thin Intertextual Links
20:28 Exploring the Number 666 in Biblical Texts
26:13 Intertextuality and Biblical Texts
29:22 The Beast and Solomon: A Biblical Connection
33:13 Activating the Biblical Imagination
39:32 The Role of Scripture in Shaping Virtue
44:29 Hyperlinks in Revelation and Cultural References

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American Christian Nationalism and the Way of Jesus (Caleb E. Campbell) Ep. #185 Jan 30, 2025

What if Christian nationalism isn’t a head problem but a heart problem? In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. Dru Johnson speaks with Caleb Campbell, author of Disarming Leviathan, about the rise of Christian nationalism in America and how Christians can engage this movement missionally rather than combatively.

Campbell discusses the anxieties that drive people to embrace Christian nationalism, highlighting the fear of pluralism, the longing for safety, and the allure of worldly power. Drawing from his experience as a pastor and cultural observer, he argues that many Christian nationalists are not inherently motivated by hatred but by a deep desire for rest and stability in a changing world.

The conversation delves into themes of hospitality, humble subversion, and the transformative power of the cross, challenging listeners to rethink how they approach those with opposing views. Campbell offers practical steps for engaging Christian nationalists, emphasizing the need for curiosity, safety, and scripture-centered dialogue.

Find Caleb E. Campbell at:
Instagram handle: https://www.instagram.com/revcalebcampbell
Facebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/caleb.campbell2
X profile: https://www.twitter.com/calebphx
Bluesky profile: https://bsky.app/profile/revcalebcampbell.bsky.social

Find Disarming Leviathan at:
https://www.ivpress.com/disarming-leviathan
For more articles:
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:03 Exploring the Good Impulses of Christian Nationalism
10:18 The Dilemma of Power: Christian Leadership in Politics
23:22 Christian Nationalism: Ideology and Identity
32:23 The Means vs. The Ends: A Christian Perspective on Power
33:25 The Call for Unity and Protection
34:26 Christian Nationalism: A Critical Examination
35:22 Navigating Leadership as a Christian
36:44 The Role of Scripture in Decision Making
38:57 The Complexity of Power Dynamics
39:54 The Dilemma of Political Engagement
42:48 The Duality of Christian Identity
44:41 The Dangers of Christian Nationalism
47:39 Personal Experiences with Christian Nationalism
51:11 A Shift in Perspective: From Combat to Mission
54:43 Practical Steps for Engagement
57:47 Creating Safe Spaces for Dialogue
01:00:30 The Importance of Humility in Conversations

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Joseph's Brothers Never Sold Him Into Slavery (Ari Lamm) Ep. #184 Jan 23, 2025

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Rabbi Dr. Ari Lamm about a provocative interpretation of the Joseph narrative: Joseph’s brothers did not sell him into slavery. Rabbi Lamm explains that while the brothers planned to sell Joseph, they never completed the act. Instead, Midianite merchants discovered Joseph in the pit and sold him to Ishmaelites, creating ambiguity in the biblical text.

Rabbi Lamm delves into the narrative techniques of the Hebrew Bible, emphasizing its minimalist yet profound storytelling. He discusses how key Hebrew words and repeated motifs, such as “sell” (Machar), link the Joseph story to broader biblical themes of chosenness, rejection, and familial dynamics. Joseph’s perception of rejection by his father, Jacob, is also explored, tying his emotional journey to the larger narrative of Genesis. The discussion highlights the development of key characters, including Judah’s moral growth and Reuben’s failure to lead.

These arcs foreshadow the future roles of the tribes of Israel, underscoring Genesis’s role as a foundational text for understanding biblical theology and history. This episode invites listeners to engage deeply with scripture, appreciate its narrative sophistication, and consider alternative interpretations that illuminate its enduring relevance.

Find Ari Lamm at:

https://twitter.com/arilamm
https://twitter.com/gfaitheffort
https://www.instagram.com/holy_landings

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction
02:40 Understanding Joseph's Silence
05:19 The Role of Dreams in Joseph's Life
08:12 The Emotional Revelation of Family
10:39 The Complexity of Selling Joseph
13:30 The Brothers' Journey of Growth
16:07 The Consequences of Actions
18:52 The Legacy of the Tribes
21:42 The Moral Implications of the Sale
24:37 The Brothers' Guilt and Recognition
25:58 The Brothers' Guilt and Joseph's Plea
27:38 The Pit: A Place of Despair
30:10 The Brothers' Plan and Reuben's Dilemma
33:36 The Caravan and the Brothers' Decision
37:07 Reuben's Return and the Aftermath
41:42 The Complexity of Joseph's Journey
45:28 Understanding the Text: Insights and Interpretations
45:51 Learning Hebrew: Resources and Recommendations

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The State of Hebraic Thought in 2025 (Dru Johnson) Ep. #183 Jan 16, 2025

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson and Mike Tolliver reflect on the growth and challenges of Hebraic thought over the past year and explore its future trajectory in 2025. They highlight recent scholarly advancements, key publications, and practical tools that are shaping the field. Dr. Johnson discusses notable books, including Human Divine Interactions in the Hebrew Scriptures by Beryl Dove Lerner and Just Discipleship by Michael Rhodes, which integrate Hebraic thought into contemporary issues such as justice and divine-human relationships. Resources like the Bible Project, Disciple Dojo, and Bible Dojo are emphasized for their contributions to making Hebraic thought accessible to diverse audiences. The episode also tackles challenges, including the oversaturation of content and the difficulty of discerning reliable voices. Dr. Johnson advocates for careful engagement with diverse perspectives and emphasizes the communal nature of Hebraic thought, encouraging listeners to study scripture collaboratively and critically. Looking ahead, the Center for Hebraic Thought plans to expand its offerings with online courses, workshops, and collaborative discussions that challenge traditional theological paradigms and realign them with biblical insights. This forward-looking conversation underscores the vibrancy and relevance of Hebraic thought in academic and faith communities.

Articles:

Philosophical Engagement with the Hebrew Bible by Arthur Keefer https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1476993X221124950

The Hebrew Bible and The Philosophy of Religion by Jaco Gericke

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt32bzm3

Books:

Human-Divine Interactions in the Hebrew Scriptures: Covenants and Cross-Purposes By Berel Dov Lerner
https://www.routledge.com/Human-Divine-Interactions-in-the-Hebrew-Scriptures-Covenants-and-Cross-Purposes/Lerner/p/book/9781032539287

Flood and Fury: Old Testament Violence and the Shalom of God by Matthew J. Lynch (Portraying Violence in the Hebrew Bible)
https://www.ivpress.com/flood-and-fury

Just Discipleship: Biblical Justice in an Unjust World by Michael J. Rhodes

https://www.ivpress.com/just-discipleship

Numbers: An Introduction and Commentary by Peter Altmann and Caio Peres https://www.christianbook.com/numbers-an-introduction-and-commentary/9780830842902/pd/842902

Reading the Old Testament as Christian Scripture: A Literary, Canonical, and Theological Survey by Mark S. Gignilliat (Author), Heath A. Thomas (Author)
https://bakeracademic.com/p/reading-the-old-testament-as-christian-scripture-mark-s-gignilliat/598786

Jesus and the Law of Moses: The Gospels and the Restoration of Israel within First-Century Judaism by Paul T. Sloan (Author)
http://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/jesus-and-the-law-of-moses/415310

Paul the Storyteller: A Narratological Approach by Christoph Heilig https://www.eerdmans.com/9780802878953/paul-the-storyteller/

Wine, Soil, and Salvation in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament By Mark Scarlata https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/wine-soil-and-salvation-in-the-hebrew-bible-and-new-testament/1C1B582958A9591ACE009889987EB238

Paul and the Resurrection of Israel By Jason Staples
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/paul-and-the-resurrection-of-israel/E88A324A84EB7F7533F23817E4FF17AD

Cursing with God: The Imprecatory Psalms and the Ethics of Christian Prayer By Trevor Laurence https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481316477/cursing-with-god/

Organizations:

Theopolis: https://theopolisinstitute.com/

Disciple Dojo: https://www.youtube.com/@DiscipleDojo

BibleProject: https://bibleproject.com/ Learning/

Software:

Aleph with Beth: https://www.youtube.com/@AlephwithBeth

BibLingo: https://biblingo.org/

BibleDojo: https://www.enterthebibledojo.com/

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction

02:13 Recent Scholarly Contributions to Hebraic Thought

07:20 Diverse Resources and Authors in Hebraic Thought

15:33 Organizations and Platforms Supporting Hebraic Thought

23:31 Tools and Resources for Understanding Hebraic Thought

29:45 Navigating the Challenges of Hebraic Thought

34:54 The Importance of Questioning and Community Engagement

45:07 Evaluating Influential Voices in Hebraic Thought

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Hebraic Thought, "What Hath Darwin...", and What's Coming Next (Dru Johnson) Ep #182 Jan 09, 2025

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson, president and founder of the Center for Hebraic Thought, explains the concept of Hebraic thought and its enduring relevance. Hosted by Mike Tolliver, the discussion explores how the biblical authors understood and conveyed ideas about freedom, justice, morality, and the nature of reality. Dr. Johnson defines Hebraic thought as the intellectual framework reflected in the Hebrew Bible and extended into the New Testament.

The conversation highlights the distinctiveness of Hebraic thought compared to Greek and modern Western philosophy. Dr. Johnson emphasizes that the biblical authors often prioritized restoration and community over punitive justice, demonstrating a wisdom-centered approach to ethics and relationships. The discussion also clarifies common misconceptions, distinguishing Hebraic thought from later Jewish philosophical traditions and situating it as a foundational framework for understanding scripture.

Dr. Johnson addresses how Hebraic thought can inform contemporary issues, from justice to scientific inquiry, by offering a conceptual foundation rooted in scripture. He also introduces his upcoming projects, including a book on Hebraic philosophy of science, aimed at bridging ancient biblical insights with modern intellectual challenges.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

01:26 Understanding Hebraic Thought

04:04 The Distinction of Hebraic Thought

06:34 Hebraic Thought in Historical Context

08:06 Paul and the Greco-Roman Influence

09:55 Philosophical Misunderstandings of Hebraic Thought

12:05 Biblical Scholars and Hebraic Thought

14:51 Cross-Pollination of Disciplines

17:50 Hebraic Thought in Everyday Ethics

22:37 Cultural Forces Against Understanding

24:59 Community Engagement with Scripture

27:32 Exploring Hebraic Thought and Darwin

32:00 The Conceptual Worlds of Natural Selection

33:46 Reception of the Book and Future Implications

34:23 Exploring Hebraic Thought and Science

38:36 The Intersection of Logic, Math, and Science

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ICYMI: The Church's Alarming Neglect of the Old Testament (Brent Strawn) Ep. 181 Jan 02, 2025

This episode was originally published on April 30, 2021. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Brent Strawn to discuss his thought-provoking book, The Old Testament is Dying. Dr. Strawn argues that the Old Testament is increasingly neglected in many Christian circles, resulting in a loss of scriptural literacy and depth. Comparing the Old Testament to a language, he explains how fluency in its teachings requires immersion and consistent practice. Without this, the language of faith risks fading into irrelevance.

Dr. Strawn outlines the challenges posed by cultural and chronological distance from the biblical authors, making empathetic and accurate interpretation of scripture more difficult. He emphasizes the need for Christians to approach the Old Testament as authoritative scripture, not just as a historical or theological backdrop to the New Testament. Through engaging examples, he illustrates how neglecting the Old Testament diminishes a believer’s understanding of foundational concepts like justice, love, and God’s covenantal promises.

The conversation also offers practical solutions, including incorporating more Old Testament readings into worship, sermons, and Christian music. Dr. Strawn’s insights inspire a renewed commitment to rediscovering the Old Testament’s rich vocabulary and its vital role in shaping a vibrant and holistic faith. A must-listen for anyone passionate about scripture!

Chapters

00:00 Understanding the Challenges of Biblical Interpretation
08:42 The Decline of the Old Testament in Modern Christianity
12:35 Reviving Old Testament Literacy
20:08 Integrating Old and New Testament Teachings
35:01 The Conceptual World of the Ancient Near East

Brent’s book The Old Testament is Dying: A Diagnosis and Recommended Treatment

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ICYMI: The Biblical Authors vs. Greek Philosophy (Joseph Dodson) Ep. 180 Dec 26, 2024

This episode was originally published on April 2, 2021. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson sits down with Dr. Joseph Dodson to explore the intersection of Greco-Roman philosophy, Stoicism, and Hebraic thought in shaping the New Testament. Dr. Dodson explains how the Bible didn’t emerge in a vacuum but within a dynamic cultural context influenced by Judaism and Greco-Roman ideas.

The discussion highlights Stoicism, the dominant philosophy of the first century, which emphasized overcoming passions, achieving contentment, and the transformative power of reason. Dr. Dodson demonstrates how Stoic principles overlap with Christian teachings, as seen in Paul’s writings and the Gospel of John, which incorporates philosophical concepts like the Logos. He also examines how biblical authors adapted, affirmed, and challenged these ideas to articulate a distinctly Hebraic worldview.

Dr. Dodson emphasizes the importance of studying texts like the Apocrypha and Greco-Roman writings to fully grasp the intellectual milieu of early Christianity. He explains how Jewish and Hellenistic ideas coexisted in a “roundabout,” influencing each other in profound ways.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Hebraic and Greco-Roman Thought
04:09 The Influence of Stoicism on New Testament Texts
13:32 Philosophical Foundations: Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle
20:01 The Interplay of Hellenistic and Hebrew Intellectualism
29:00 Recommended Readings for Understanding Context

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Judaism is About Love (Shai Held) part 2 Ep. 179 Dec 19, 2024

In this continuation of their conversation, Dr. Dru Johnson speaks with Rabbi Dr. Shai Held about the themes explored in his book, Judaism is About Love. The discussion delves into the complexities of love, law, and chosenness within Jewish thought, offering a profound perspective on the relationship between particularity and universalism.

Rabbi Held addresses the idea of divine chosenness, emphasizing that God’s love for Israel is unique but not exclusive. He critiques modern rejections of chosenness as caricatured and argues for a theology that balances grace with humility. Rabbi Held also explores the tension between loving one’s own and extending love universally. He describes Judaism’s “particularist universalism,” where love for one’s family and community naturally expands to encompass all humanity as bearers of God’s image.

The conversation turns to the ethics of love, including the challenges of enemy love and the discernment required to navigate complex relationships. Rabbi Held shares deeply personal stories that illustrate the real-life implications of these ideas, demonstrating how love can be both demanding and transformative.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction
03:13 The Concept of Divine Love for Israel
08:02 The Obligation to Love Neighbors
13:18 Understanding Love for Enemies
20:16 Navigating Complex Questions of Love
24:38 Reflections on the Book and Its Impact

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Judaism is About Love (Shai Held) part 1 Ep. 178 Dec 12, 2024

In this special episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Rabbi Dr. Shai Held, president and dean of the Hadar Institute, about his book, Judaism is About Love. The conversation explores the intricate relationship between love and law in Judaism, offering insights for both Jewish and Christian audiences.

Rabbi Held emphasizes that, in Judaism, law is not opposed to love but serves as its manifestation, challenging the common dichotomy in some Christian traditions. He highlights the centrality of love in Jewish rituals and commandments, portraying them as pathways to cultivate love for God and others. Through examples like the Torah’s command to love the stranger and the ritual practice of gratitude, Rabbi Held illustrates how Jewish thought integrates love into every aspect of life.

The episode also delves into Rabbi Held’s methodology, blending traditional Jewish interpretations with modern academic approaches. He discusses his book’s aim to present Jewish spirituality in an accessible yet deeply reflective way.

For those curious about Hebraic and Jewish thought, this episode provides a compelling perspective on the transformative power of love, the joy of being commanded, and the communal and spiritual dimensions of the Torah’s teachings.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Rabbi Shai Held and His Work
05:18 The Relationship Between Torah and Love
10:06 Methods of Jewish Thought and Love
13:36 Rituals and Their Role in Instilling Love
17:35 The Interplay of Love and Ritual
21:18 Understanding Love in the Context of Divine Love
24:53 Comparing Approaches to Love in Jewish Thought
30:39 The Call to Love in Contemporary Society
36:21 Exploring Jewish Humor and Its Depths
37:19 Influential Works in Biblical Studies
37:46 A Fun Game of Love Songs

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What Do You Want? (Mike Tolliver) Ep 177 Dec 05, 2024

Welcome to the final installment of this podcast series on the past, present, and future of the Center for Hebraic Thought! In this episode, hosts Dru Johnson and Mike Tolliver turn their attention to you, the audience, asking for your thoughts, questions, and suggestions as the Center grows and evolves.

We explore exciting possibilities, including new video content for YouTube, packaged resources for community groups and classrooms, and fresh scholarship on topics like the philosophical elements of Moses and Plato, the significance of the Old Testament calendar, and even Hebraic perspectives on modern questions like tattoos.

Join us as we discuss our plans to equip learners, from churchgoers to Bible college students, with meaningful and accessible resources for a lifetime of engaging with Hebraic thought.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

02:01 More of What We Are Already Doing

04:16 Some New Things For The Center For Hebraic Thought Audience

04:53 More Resources For The Biblical Mind Audience

06:56 Questions We've Never Answered On The Show

08:27 How To Get Us These Questions

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Where Are We Going? (Mike Tolliver) Ep. 176 Nov 27, 2024

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson introduces Mike Tolliver, the new Executive Director of the Center for Hebraic Thought (CHT). Together, they discuss exciting developments for the Center following its recent relaunch as an independent 501(c)(3). Mike shares his academic background in theology and philosophy, highlighting his passion for Hebraic thought and its integration into biblical scholarship.

The episode outlines the formalization of the CHT’s two primary initiatives: the Center for Hebraic Thought, aimed at scholars, and The Biblical Mind, tailored for the broader church and theological students. Plans include commissioning new scholarly work, providing free, high-quality resources for churches and classrooms, and launching tightly packaged multimodal courses.

A key highlight is the introduction of a PhD scholarship fund for students in the humanities focusing on Hebraic thought. The Center also plans to expand its offerings to scholars, such as broader platforms for publishing and improved compensation. Additional goals include an annual conference and a redesigned, user-friendly website.

The episode concludes with an announcement of the CHT’s first capital campaign, designed for micro-donors to participate. Mike emphasizes strategy and collaboration as central to the Center’s future success, ensuring its ability to serve both academic and non-academic audiences effectively.

Chapters

00:27 Introduction

01:21 Mike Tolliver's Background

02:50 Discussing the Changes That Are Coming for the Center

05:40 The Mission as an Independent Non-Profit

06:58 The Immediate Changes

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So, What Happened? (Dru Johnson) The Biblical Mind Ep. 175 Nov 21, 2024

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson, Director of the Center for Hebraic Thought (CHT), shares the journey of the Center, its recent challenges, and its exciting relaunch as an independent 501(c)(3). Dr. Johnson reflects on the CHT’s founding mission: exploring the unique thinking patterns of the biblical authors and their relevance today. He highlights the Center's initial support from the Philos Project and its integral role in bridging the Old and New Testaments through Hebraic thought.

The closure of King's College in spring 2023 forced a significant transition for the CHT. Dr. Johnson recounts the personal and professional disruptions, including relocating his family and accepting a visiting appointment at Hope College in Michigan, alongside a major project at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford.

The episode introduces Mike Tolliver, the CHT’s new Executive Director, who spearheaded the relaunch with his entrepreneurial and scholarly expertise. Dr. Johnson expresses optimism for the Center's future, hinting at exciting new initiatives aimed at expanding its impact.

Chapters

00:05 Introduction and the Mission of the CHT

02:44 Challenges from the Closure of King's College

04:30 Personal and Professional Adjustments

06:00 The Role of Mike Tolliver in Relaunching the CHT

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Why Does Church Matter? Learning from Jazz (Mark Glanville) Apr 24, 2024

Quotes from this episode:
"With the Bible in our hands, it's time to improvise church again and to see what the spirit is calling us to and how the spirit is opening wide our imagination for what the church can be today."

"We're doing a bit like what jazz musicians do. We immerse in the biblical story and we improvise on that biblical story, the Bible in our hand."

"Church is a conversation. Communities that are able to have conversations is really important. We can talk about anything. We can talk about the sermon together. We can talk about pressing issues facing our community, facing our neighborhood that we can get involved with."

In this episode:

— Introduction and Setting the Stage

— Conceptual Hurdles and the Need for Fresh Imagination

— Improvising on the Tradition: Learning from the Biblical Story

— Being Rooted in the Neighborhood: Leadership and the Role of Every Member

— The Challenges of Size: Can Large Churches Safely Improvise?

— Local Aesthetics and the Physical Space of Worship

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When No One Reads Books Anymore Mar 02, 2024

Byron Borger, owner of Hearts and Minds Bookstore speaks with Dru Johnson about literacy, theology, and the need for bookstores to cultivate the Christian imagination.

AI Generated Takeaways

—The decline in reading and literacy rates among Americans is a concern, particularly among younger generations.
—Books play a crucial role in personal growth and Christian discipleship, expanding one's understanding of the world and deepening their faith.
—The power of books to inspire imagination and critical thinking is essential for engaging with complex texts, including the Bible.
—Wise book recommendations that consider individual interests and readiness are important for fostering a love of reading.
—Christian publishing has seen trends towards ecumenical reading, contemplative spirituality, and a commitment to social justice. Christian books should go beyond self-help and focus on worldview formation and the lordship of Christ over the life of the mind.
—Christian bookstores should offer diverse book categories to cater to different interests and needs.
—The rise of online marketing and the influence of Amazon have changed the publishing industry, with authors now expected to promote their own books.
—Supporting local bookstores is important to maintain a human connection and receive personalized recommendations.
—Physical spaces like bookstores and libraries provide opportunities for serendipitous discoveries and foster lifelong learning.
—Lifelong learning is a distinctively Christian act that can be seen as an act of worship and a way to practice the presence of God.

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Will AI Take Over the World (Adam Graber) Feb 23, 2024

Appropriately: An AI generated summary of our conversation:

The conversation explores the influence of technology on humanity and the reciprocal relationship between the two. It discusses the impact of smartphones and identifies key technologies that have shaped the world. The balance between screen time and creativity is examined, along with the concerns and benefits of AI. The importance of foundational knowledge and skills is emphasized, as well as the need for critical evaluation of sources. The conversation also addresses the biases present in AI systems and the challenges of tracing causal links within them. The conversation explores the use of AI in data analysis and interpretation, particularly in the context of Bible study. It raises questions about the validity and limitations of using AI for interpretation and emphasizes the need for critical evaluation.

Takeaways

AI can analyze vast amounts of data and identify correlations that humans may not be able to perceive.
The use of AI for interpretation in Bible study raises questions about the validity of a statistical method of interpretation.
AI interpretation should be seen as one mode of interpretation among others, rather than a replacement for traditional methods.
The scholarly community needs to critically evaluate the use of AI for interpretation and develop educational programs to address its implications.

Chapters

01:31 The Influence of Technology on Humanity

03:26 Technology Shaping Our Experience

04:21 Examples of Technology

06:23 The Relationship Between Technology and Humanity

09:27 The Impact of Smartphones

10:48 Technologies that Have Changed the World

13:24 Balancing Screen Time and Creativity

16:09 The Concerns and Benefits of AI

19:52 The Role of AI in Creativity

25:09 The Importance of Foundational Knowledge and Skills

27:48 The Biases of AI Systems

31:34 The Human Element in AI Systems

36:26 The Need for Critical Evaluation of Sources

39:43 The Human Bias in AI Systems

40:26 The Concerns about Tracing Causal Links in AI

41:29 AI and Data Analysis

42:27 Statistical Method of Interpretation

43:57 Critically Evaluating AI Interpretation

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Scripture, Sexuality, and Podcasting (Preston Sprinkle) Nov 29, 2023

In the first half of this episode, Dru Johnson talks with Preston Sprinkle about his journeys into the LGBTQ+ communities, theologies, and conversations and the psychological research in that field. He also discusses his convictions about biblical views on sexuality that emerged from this quest.

In the second half of this episode, Preston and Dru talk about the theology (and ecclesiology) of podcasting itself. Who should and should not be doing it, and what cautions should they be employing.

Audio editing by Nate Spanos.

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Why We Need the Global Church (Stephen T. Pardue) Nov 14, 2023

In this episode, we discuss Stephen T. Pardue's newest book Why Evangelical Theology Needs the Global Church.

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Are Psychedelics Good for Depression, or Anything at All? (Ben ”Doc” Askins) [Full Episode] Oct 21, 2023

Audio editing (and strategic bleeping) by John Viinalass.

In the first half of this extra long episode:
We discuss the strange biography of Ben "Doc" Askins, from combat medic to seminary student to Army physician's assistant (PA) to Psychiatric PA researching psychedelic medicine and trauma.

In the second half of this extra long episode:

We discuss if there is an appropriate roll for various drugs, including psychedelics and MDMA, in assisting the dying, integrating traumas, and more. We also figure out what a "bad trip" on LSD might be.

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Why Is Leviticus so Hard to Read? (Dr. Jay Sklar) Aug 30, 2023

A Bend in the Road for TBM and CHT, and Farewell Celina! Jul 28, 2023

The Biblical Mind and the Center for Hebraic Thought are entering a new phase after ending a formal partnership with The King’s College. Additionally, CHT director of operations and TBM editor Celina Durgin will leave her position at the center on July 28, 2023.

In this mini episode, Dru and Celina provide a bit more context, and Celina bids the CHT goodbye and shares a little about where she's going next.

The Biblical Mind magazine and podcast will keep publishing during this transition, though less frequently and regularly than it had been until recently. The CHT’s other partnerships and affiliations will be unaffected. We hope and pray for a new partnership to allow the CHT to emerge from its period of dormancy and resume full programming in the coming months. Thank you for continuing to follow us.

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’Fireside’ Chat: Distance between Seminaries and Churches (Matt LaPine) Jun 30, 2023

Dru enjoys a more casual conversation with Matthew A. LaPine (PhD, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School), pastor of theological development at Cornerstone Church and lecturer at Salt School of Theology (Ames, Iowa). Their chat covers theological and pastoral education, considering the in-house models of megachurches and the ways in which seminary can be disconnected from the reality of church life.

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Is ’Systemic Injustice’ Biblical? (Michael Rhodes) Jun 09, 2023

Terms like "systemic sin" or "structural injustice" immediately make many people think of contemporary ideologies that they either strongly embrace or strongly oppose, such as socialism or the much-discussed (but poorly understood) critical race theory. These charged terms are often employed in vague or unhelpful ways.

The Bible has many examples of sin and injustice that are not purely individual—of evil that is bigger than the sum of the evildoers, and iniquity that reverberates through generations. How can we think more clearly and biblically about the nature of evil and injustice? Sin is many things in Scripture: an action, an identity, an agent or power, and the brokenness of structures and systems. People err when they don't grasp the Bible's full, complex picture of sin.

Michael Rhodes (PhD, Trinity College Bristol/University of Aberdeen) is a Lecturer in Old Testament at Carey Baptist College. He is an ordained minister in the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, author of Formative Feasting: Practices and Virtue Ethics in the Deuteronomic Tithe Meal and Corinthian Lord’s Supper (2022), and co-author of Practicing the King’s Economy: Honoring Jesus in How We Work, Earn, Spend, Save, and Give.

Show notes:

00:26 Unjust kings don't act alone; the state is more than the sum of its parts
06:46 The positive side: people were created to be mediators of God's blessing
12:34 English hides the second-person plural
14:32 The structures of society create incentives and disincentives for behaviors
15:38 Intergenerational sin in Scripture
18:14 People's inconsistent resistance to the idea of systemic injustice and sin
22:49 What is sin? It's both individual and communal, personal and systemic
31:10 Is this leaning toward socialism or critical race theory?
41:06 Cornel West for president?
41:56 Exercising power faithfully in different kinds political, economic, and cultural contexts
43:48 Paradigmatic depictions of God's kingdom should be announced and emulated in the church

Show notes by Celina Durgin

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Technology Isn’t a Neutral Tool (Jason Thacker) Jun 05, 2023

From social media, to the printing press, to artificial intelligence, to the pencil, technologies have often been regarded as things that can't be good or bad apart from how people choose to use them. Jason Thacker doesn't think any technology is merely a neutral tool, because as people use technology to shape the world, it also shapes them and their culture.

Jason Thacker serves as an assistant professor of philosophy and ethics at Boyce College in Louisville, KY. He also is a research fellow in Christian ethics and director of the research institute at The Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. He is the author of several books including Following Jesus in the Digital Age and The Age of AI: Artificial Intelligence and the Future of Humanity.

He is a graduate of The University of Tennessee in Knoxville, where he earned a Bachelor of Arts in Communication Studies. He also holds a Master of Divinity from The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where he is currently a PhD candidate in ethics, public theology, and philosophy.

Show notes:

00:26 What is technology?
04:25 Jacques Ellul on "technique" and how technology forms us
08:19 Two views of technology: instrumentalist and deterministic
16:05 Optimism, pessimism, and realism about technology
22:27 Some tools don't have good uses
28:23 A biblical theology of technology?
31:54 Technology and the vulnerable

Show notes by Celina Durgin

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ICYMI: How ’Christianese’ Is Like Corporate Jargon (Valerie Hobbs) May 05, 2023

This episode was originally published in May of 2021. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners. A new episode is coming next week.

Why do we say "come to Jesus"? This Christianese phrase doesn't just show up in church—it shows up in offices, homes, and schools around America, where we speak of "come-to-Jesus moments." What about words like "community" or "intentional"? Do we even know what those words mean? Unless we attend to our words and try to express our thoughts more carefully, our religious language can end up thin, impotent, and laden with clichés.

In this episode, Dru Johnson talks to Dr. Valerie Hobbs, a Senior Lecturer and linguist at the University of Sheffield. Dr. Hobbs specializes in the construction, use, and progression of religious language in contemporary discourse. They discuss the definitions and origins of religious language and Christianese, and how they can be distinguished from simple "in-group" or technical language. Then, they consider how our most powerful (or just persistent) ideas about death, God, and spirituality find their way out of the church and into corporate discourse, or vice-versa. They conclude with remarks on how to think about prayer, apologizing, and even the idea of racial reconciliation, to help us choose better words and think more deeply.

Show notes:

0:00 Defining “religious language” and "Christianese"
2:18 How religious language is constructed
4:26 The difference with in-group language
6:37 Religious language in the secular world
9:27 Corporate discourse and our values
13:25 Where we get our Christianese clichés
19:09 Learning how to express our experiences
23:43 Becoming sensitive to the way we speak
26:47 Apologizing
29:30 The problem with terms like "racial reconciliation"

Learn more about Valerie Hobbs and her work.

Her most recent book, An Introduction to Religious Language

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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ICYMI: Jesus Shows That God and Humans Are a Good Match (Lucy Peppiatt) Apr 28, 2023

This episode was originally published on May 5, 2021. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.

"It was most fitting for God to come save the people he made in the first place," says Dr. Lucy Peppiatt, Principal at Westminster Theological Centre.

The early church loved to discuss the "fittingness of the Son to become human," because it implies that God has a passion for man. He purposed from the beginning of time that He would come to save us, as one of us, and that means that there is something about humans that is fitting to be united with God. And that is the gospel.

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson and Dr. Peppiatt talk all about Jesus of Nazareth: Who was he? Who did people think he was? Why did he teach and present himself indirectly rather than just revealing himself to man? Dru and Dr. Peppiatt address challenging questions about the hiddenness of God in Christ, the incarnation, the union of the divine and the human in the Son, and more.

Show notes:

1:55 Why didn’t Jesus reveal himself to man while he was on Earth?
5:24 Athanasius of Alexandria on Jesus
7:13 Wrestling in the church: Jesus intellectually reasoned with us
15:40 Is there value to the struggle?
19:50 Is there something human about God?
24:37 Impoverished theology

Show notes by Serena Tuomi.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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What the Image of God Is and Is Not (Carmen Imes) Apr 21, 2023

You might have heard that being made in the image of God refers to human rationality, relationality, moral agency, or some combination of these qualities. Dr. Carmen Imes disagrees.

She and Dru discuss what they think the author of Genesis was actually referring to with the phrase "image of God," in light of Carmen's latest book Being God's Image: Why Creation Still Matters (forthcoming in June, 2023). Along the way, they discuss artificial intelligence, the resurrection and renewal of creation, and why Eve should have been more assertive.

Carmen (PhD in Biblical Theology, Wheaton College) is Associate Professor of Old Testament at Biola University. She is also the author of Bearing God’s Name: Why Sinai Still Matters. Carmen is an active member of the Evangelical Theological Society, the Institute for Biblical Research, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the Canadian Society of Biblical Studies. Carmen keeps a blog called Chastened Institutions and releases weekly Torah Tuesday videos on her YouTube channel.

00:25 Rediscovering the biblical doctrine of the Imago Dei
08:47 "Male and female he created them"
12:17 The importance of the body
17:38 Eve wasn't too bossy—she wasn't assertive enough
20:18 Artificial intelligence and ChatGPT
28:08 Abdication of creation care and the renewal of the earth
38:02 Implications for how we should treat people

Show notes by Celina Durgin

This episode's music was generated by artificial intelligence.

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Understanding the Slaughter of the Canaanites in the Book of Joshua (Paul Hinlicky) Apr 07, 2023

Herem warfare is the commandment to exterminate all survivors. The law of herem warfare appears in the Book of Joshua and contravenes the usual motivations for going to war in the ancient Near East. Armies in that context typically killed only males and took women, children, and possessions before turning the conquered nation into a subjugated satellite nation. The law of herem warfare, on the other hand, forbade enslavement and required that all be killed.

Dru and Paul R. Hinlicky discuss this topic and more within the Book of Joshua. Dr. Hinlicky wrote Joshua for the Brazos Theological Commentary on the Bible series.

Dr. Hinlicky (PhD, Union Theological Seminary, 1983) is an internationally known theologian who has published more than seventy articles and many books. He teaches theology at Roanoke College in Salem, Virginia. He is an authority on the theology of Martin Luther and how Luther's theology played out in history since the time of the Reformation.

Show notes:

00:26 Why don't we hear many sermons on the Book of Joshua?
02:55 The context of "be strong and courageous"
10:39 Herem warfare—does God command genocide?
15:17 The plan of herem warfare fails
25:32 The theological emphasis of the Book of Joshua

Show notes by Celina Durgin

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Is It Time to Quit ’Quiet Time’? Discussing Our View (Dru Johnson & Celina Durgin) Mar 28, 2023

Instead of interviewing a guest, TBM host Dru Johnson and editor Celina Durgin discussed an article they co-wrote for Christianity Today: "Is It Time to Quit 'Quiet Time'?"

Many people read their Bibles on their own, and some do so daily. When combined with communal study, some form of this practice is important for anyone wanting to become fluent in Scripture. However, private Bible-reading can go wrong. It can be fragmented, individualistic, uninformed, and essentially passive. It can be impotent or even deleterious for readers whose misunderstandings go uncorrected and who don't apply true biblical principles to life.

At its most distinctive, the "quiet time" ritual of private prayer, listening, and devotional Bible-reading is an artifact of Western culture from the last 150 years. Dru and Celina explored the history of this practice in an article in Christianity Today, published online and slated to appear in the April print edition.

They concluded that the form quiet time often takes is not conducive to Bible literacy and can actually compound misunderstanding over time. It can even be an empty ritual that Christians perform to feel pious while failing to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with their God.

If you're a regular listener, you can probably guess that Dru and Celina favor community-based solutions to this problem.

Dru hosts The Biblical Mind podcast, directs the Center for Hebraic Thought, and is an Associate Professor of Biblical and Theological Studies at The King’s College in New York City.

Celina is the Editor of The Biblical Mind magazine and podcast. She was previously an editorial fellow at a political magazine in New York, and then, after graduate school, worked in the editorial department of a marketing company in downtown Boston. Some of her written work can be found in Christianity Today.

Show notes by Celina Durgin

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Women in the Early Church (Nijay Gupta) Mar 24, 2023

This episode was originally published by OnScript podcast. Thanks to the OnScript team for letting us share this episode with our listeners. Here are the OnScript show notes for this episode:

Episode: The book we’re talking about today is Tell Her Story: How Women Led, Taught, and Ministered in the Early Church with IVP Academic. In this episode, we explore the data about women in Scripture and antiquity including ideas such as women’s leadership is an exception that relies upon the norm of male leadership, persistent myths about women in the Roman empire, and the hotly contested passages in Paul.

Guest: Dr. Nijay Gupta is Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary. He has written over 21 books, including commentaries on Colossians, Thessalonians, and Philippians. He’s written 15 New Testament Words of Life: A New Testament Theology for Real Life (Zondervan), A Beginner’s Guide to New Testament Studies: Understanding Key Debates (Baker Academic), and Tell Her Story: How Women Led, Taught, and Ministered in the Early Church (IVP Academic), discussed in this episode. He has also written several books helping scholars research, write, and get a sense of the field of NT studies. These include The Writer: A Guide to Researching, Writing, and Publishing in Biblical Studies (Cascade) and Prepare, Succeed, Advance: A Guidebook for Getting a PhD in Biblical Studies and Beyond (2nd ed.; Cascade).

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Trying to Master the Bible? Try Savoring It Instead (Andrew Abernethy) Mar 17, 2023

Literature students who can analyze a passage from East of Eden with ease often flounder when trying to analyze a Bible passage. Why?

Dr. Andrew Abernethy explains how people can overcome barriers to understanding Scripture by using skills they already have, and by seeking not just to understand, but also to savor.

Dru asks Dr. Abernethy, Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College in Illinois, about his new book Savoring Scripture: A Six-Step Guide to Studying the Bible.

Prior to joining the faculty at Wheaton, Dr. Abernethy was a Lecturer in Old Testament at Ridley College (Melbourne), where he benefited greatly from teaching and living with fellow Christians in a cross-cultural and post-Christian context. He has written numerous articles and is also the author of several other books: Eating in Isaiah (Brill, 2014); The Book of Isaiah and God’s Kingdom (IVP, 2016); God’s Messiah in the Old Testament (Baker, 2020); Discovering Isaiah (Eerdmans/SPCK, 2021).

Show notes:

00:26 Savoring Scripture
07:48 Do we need special knowledge to understand the Bible?
14:54 The humility to overcome the fear of getting Scripture wrong
21:15 Taking time to savor God
28:45 Applying existing skills to biblical interpretation

Show notes by Celina Durgin

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Jazz, Justice, and the Gospel (William Edgar) Mar 10, 2023

The rich and sad story of jazz has shaped both its sorrowful sounds and its joyful hope. William Edgar, the author of A Supreme Love: The Music of Jazz and the Hope of the Gospel, discusses the subtle and not-so-subtle ways the Bible has informed the movement and music of jazz throughout its history.

William (BA, Harvard University, MDiv, Westminster Theological Seminary, DTh, Université de Genève) is professor of apologetics at Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia. He directs the gospel-jazz band Renewal, which features the legendary singer Ruth Naomi Floyd. He is also currently professeur associé at the Faculté Jean Calvin, Aix-en-Provence (France). He has published more than 20 books and numerous articles in French and in English. His most recent book is A Supreme Love: The Music of Jazz and the Hope of the Gospel (IVP Academic, 2022). He and his wife, Barbara, have two children and three grandchildren.

Show notes:

00:25 What is jazz? Is it sinful?
05:08 Joyful with an edge of suffering
10:49 Punk rock, protest music, and intimidating jazz musicians
15:08 Entertaining jazz, delighting audiences, and fighting racism
21:20 Jazz in the trenches—gritty and ineffable
27:12 Parallel between Hebrew poetry and some jazz forms

Show notes by Celina Durgin

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Trusting Reality: ’Longing to Know’ Turns 20 (Esther Meek) Mar 03, 2023

"Knowing is an activity that all of us are involved in, all of the time," writes Dr. Esther Meek in her book Longing to Know, which turns 20 this year. "Usually knowing happens without our taking great thought to the process. But sometimes we stop and think about what we're doing. When we stop and think, what we were doing without much thought becomes murky indeed."

Think of learning to ride a bike. After a period of assisted practice, something clicks. A person who initially couldn't balance on a bike can suddenly ride off on their own. The external process of learning to ride a bike—guidance from a parent or a friend, training wheels, brief intervals of unassisted pedaling—are all easily identifiable. But the personal transformation—from not knowing how to ride a bike to knowing how—is more mysterious.

Building on the thought of Michael Polanyi, Dr. Meek challenges conceptions of knowing that have reigned since the Enlightenment, which don't reflect the way the biblical authors appear to portray how we acquire knowledge. It turns out that, for instance, doing what YHWH commands "so that you may know" looks a lot like learning to ride a bike.

Esther Lightcap Meek (BA Cedarville College; MA Western Kentucky University; PhD Temple University) is Professor of Philosophy emeritus at Geneva College, in Western Pennsylvania. She is also Senior Scholar with The Seattle School for Theology and Psychology, a Fujimura Institute Scholar, an Associate Fellow with the Kirby Laing Center for Public Theology, and a member of the Polanyi Society.

Show notes:

00:26 The bike-riding paradigm of knowing
04:30 Modernism, postmodernism, and Longing to Know
10:40 The nature of science, and "risky confidence"
15:03 How Dr. Meek got into philosophy—"very odd questions"
18:44 Making contact with reality
27:54 Reality is person-like
29:49 Christians allied with modernism
31:20 The need for a stronger doctrine of creation—a metaphysics

Show notes by Celina Durgin

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Old—and New—Testament Violence and the Shalom of God (Matthew J. Lynch) Feb 24, 2023

Readers of the Book of Joshua (and many other parts of the Bible) are inevitably confronted with the poblem of violence in Scripture. Texts referring to the destruction of whole cities or the killing of men, women, and children can cause us to question whether God is truly loving and just.

In this episode, Dr. Matt Lynch discusses violence in Scripture from his new book Flood and Fury: Old Testament Violence and the Shalom of God. He considers the difficulties with approaching violence from a modern perspective, the ways of reading the different violent accounts presented in Scripture, and how literally we should take biblical rhetoric. Plus, hear why being so-called "New Testament Christians" doesn't really distance us from violence in the Bible.

Dr. Lynch is an Associate Professor of Old Testament at Regent College in Vancouver. His research looks at issue of violence and the idea of monotheism in the biblical texts. Prior to his work at Regent, Matt taught at Westminster Theological Centre, Nashotah House, and Grand Rapids Theological Seminary. In addition, he founded and co-hosts the OnScript podcast.

Show notes:

0:00 Approaching violence in the Bible
3:50 Different cultural perspectives on violence
5:46 Violence for modern and ancient readers
10:25 Majority versus minority report
15:58 Idolatry in ancient Israel
18:53 Interpreting the Bible's rhetoric
23:40 The archaeology of Jericho
27:20 Christianity and violence
30:07 Joshua's challenges
34:14 Intermarriage
38:55 The primacy of some parts of Scripture

Show notes by Micah Long

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ICYMI: Don’t Skip the Poems (Michelle Knight) Feb 17, 2023

This episode was originally published on October, 2020. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.

The poetry in Scripture can be hard to understand. And, especially when it is embedded within a story, such as the Song of Deborah, we might be tempted to skip over it. It uses a lot of allusion and metaphor and is pregnant with imagery and historical detail. We would rather the author just "get to the point" and give us a bullet-point summary. However, to ignore the stylistic force of biblical poetry (or any biblical genre) is to miss out on some of the deep theological underpinnings of the text.

In this episode, Dr. Michelle Knight, Assistant Professor of Old Testament and Semitic Languages at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, discusses biblical poetry and literary sensitivity to the genres of Scripture. She and Dr. Dru Johnson zoom in on the Song of Deborah in Judges and the violence it seems to celebrate, then expand to discuss Joshua and Judges more broadly. They cover biblical characterization, how the New Testament authors draw on motifs in Judges, and even compare Joshua to a Marvel movie. In the end, they aim to encourage us toward both theological understanding and literary prowess when we read the Bible.

Show notes:

0:00 Reading biblical poetry
2:24 Dru squeezes his rubber ducky
3:55 Violence in the Song of Deborah
8:51 The purpose of poetic devices in conveying meaning
12:42 Understanding the "rules" of poetry
15:18 The style of Joshua versus that of Judges
18:53 Joshua and Judges in the New Testament
21:45 Are Samson and Gideon heroes?
25:24 Understanding the character of Joshua

Read more about Michelle Knight.

Show notes by Micah Long.

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The State of Jewish–Christian Relations (Pesach Wolicki) Feb 10, 2023

Despite their shared foundations and concern for the Word of God, Christians and Jews rarely interact on the basis of faith in the modern world. Many Jewish communities, in response to centuries of antisemitism and persecution, have shielded themselves from Christians, while modern Christians often know very little about the Jewish faith.

Dru interviews Rabbi Pesach Wolicki about the state of relations between Christians and Jews. For Pesach, the Jewish faith centers on a universal mission to bless the whole world; as a result, his work focuses on sharing Judaism and Jewish readings of Scripture with Christians. They discuss thinkers from Maimonides to Luther, the way reading the Talmud can help Christians, and why tension still exists between Christians and Jews today. Plus, hear Pesach's critique of the popular worship song "Reckless Love."

Rabbi Pesach Wolicki is an Orthodox Rabbi whose work focuses on relations between Christians and Jews. Currently, he works as the Executive Director of the Center for Jewish–Christian Understanding and Cooperation. He has taught at churches, Christian colleges, and seminaries across North America, and writes regularly for various news outlets. He currently lives in Israel with his wife and eight children.

Show notes:

0:00 Jewish identity and its relation to Christianity
3:12 A kingdom of priests
5:45 Maimonides and the Messiah
9:55 Reading Scripture with Christians
14:48 Talmudic readings
19:44 Wolicki's method for reading the Bible
21:38 Historical perspective and current tension
29:52 Reckless love?!?
31:50 How Christians can start to understand Jews

Show notes by Micah Long

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The Unwritten Word: Learning from High Orality-Reliant Cultures (Charles Madinger) Feb 03, 2023

Western culture relies extensively on written text to communicate. But the majority of people across the world rely far less on reading than they do on speech, body language, story, images, and their other senses. Charles Madinger joins the podcast this week to explore the concept of orality—the multifaceted way in which people were created to communicate.

Though well-meaning pastors and missionaries may rely on three-point sermons and Bible translation projects, these efforts often miss the variety of ways that the active, living Word of God engages people's bodies and minds, in communities. Charles also examines Jesus' parables and the many ways God interacts with his people throughout Scripture, how McDonald's might do a better job communicating than most pastors, and whether Gen Z is escaping the low orality-reliance of Western culture.

Dr. Charles Madinger is the Founder and Director of the Institutes for Orality Strategies, a collective of organizations committed to evangelizing to oral communicators. In addition to his scholarly publications in the field of orality, he has worked in global ministry for thirty years. He also serves the 4.2.20 Foundation as the Vice President of the Center for Oral Scriptures.

Show notes:

0:00 Inner and outer speech
5:00 How do we best communicate?
7:39 Memory and multi-sensory communication
13:55 High versus low orality-reliance
16:40 Abstract versus concrete
23:00 Communication in the Bible
27:52 Carrying the Word of God in our bodies
30:29 The Western mind
36:03 The Gutenberg parenthesis
39:00 Teaching like Jesus taught

Show notes by Micah Long

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The First Christian Nation? Keeping Up with the Armenians (Heather Ohaneson) Jan 27, 2023

Despite the rich history of Armenia as an ancient Christian community, many Christians know very little about the Armenian ethnicity, culture, nation, and faith. In this episode, Dru interviews Dr. Heather Ohaneson, pastor of Armenian Martyrs' Congregational Church, about Armenian history from the early days of the church until now, along with her experience as an evangelical Protestant Armenian pastor. They discuss the culture, language, and global migration of the Armenian people, and the aftermath of the Armenian genocide and recent conflicts on their nation. And yes, the Kardashians get a mention.

Dr. Heather Ohaneson is the pastor of Armenian Martyrs' Congregational Church in Havertown, Pennsylvania. She received her PhD in philosophy of religion from Columbia University, and taught at George Fox University and Azusa Pacific University. Currently, she is pursuing an MDiv at Princeton Theological Seminary and ordination in the United Church of Christ to continue to serve the Armenian Evangelical community.

Show notes:

0:00 The first Christian nation in history
4:44 The current conflict in Armenia
5:55 The Armenian language and dialects
6:49 The Armenian genocide
9:20 Modern Armenians
14:04 Protestant and evangelical churches
16:11 The gifts of Armenian Christianity
20:00 Heather Ohaneson's background
23:00 The spread of Armenian evangelical churches

Show notes by Micah Long

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Jewish Identity, Deconstruction, and Misusing the Bible (Marty Solomon) Jan 20, 2023

How do we approach the Bible? Do we see it merely as a "perfect rulebook"? A piece of literature to be picked apart? Or do we see it as something that threatens to transform us and upend our preconceptions, helping us live in accordance with God and His activity? In this episode, Dru interviews Marty Solomon, cohost, creator, and Executive Producer of The BEMA Podcast and President of Impact Campus Ministries, about his approach to reading and teaching the Bible. They consider different approaches to Scripture, from fundamentalism to textual criticism to deconstruction, and explore the ways each might shed more light on the text. They also explore how understanding Jewish identity (both ancient and modern) can present both opportunities and pitfalls for understanding Scripture.

Marty Solomon is an author, teacher, and resource creator who aims to help people read the Bible in its historical and Jewish context. Along with his work at The BEMA Podcast and Impact Campus Ministries, he has written a book called Asking Better Questions of the Bible: A Guide for the Wounded, Wary, and Longing for More (releasing February 7, 2023). He aims to bring the best of Christian history, modern scholarship, and discipleship to the church, especially college students, to help them love God and serve his kingdom.

Show notes:

0:00 Inerrancy versus inspiration
2:13 Asking the Bible hard questions
5:09 Torah obedience and Jewish identity
10:02 Modern Jewish Messianism
12:09 Eastern versus Western thought
14:30 Deconstruction and college ministry
17:49 Passion for investigating Scripture
21:33 Accountability and academia
28:00 How should we approach the Bible?
31:45 What gives Marty hope

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Reading the Bible Like an Adult (Avital Hazony Levi) Jan 13, 2023

How do we read the Bible like adults? For many people who grew up in communities of faith, the Bible stories have been a part of their lives for as long as they can remember. But it's often not until later in life that the richer meanings of the stories come alive, misconceptions are corrected, and the voices of the biblical authors become clearer—even as we relinquish naive certainties and the expectation of a black and white world.

In this episode, Dru interviews Dr. Avital Hazony Levi, instructor in Jewish philosophy and Bible at Midreshet Nishmat. They discuss everything from the nitty-gritty vocabulary of the story of Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar to the ways in which Western philosophical concepts threaten to drown out the voices of the biblical authors to the psychology of female characters in the Hebrew Bible. Along the way, they examine core biblical concepts such as loyalty, trust, responsibility, and generational sin.

Currently a postdoctoral fellow at Tel Aviv University, Avital has a rich background in both the Hebrew Bible and philosophy, and her work spans from moral epistemology to the nature of loyalty and worship. She has taught philosophy, Jewish thought, and Tanakh at Nishmat, TVA, and the Orthodox Union college summer program.

Show notes:

0:00 Reading the Bible like an adult
2:38 Abraham's loyalty
5:10 Why does Sarah give Hagar to Abraham?
11:33 Bitterness and faithlessness
17:00 Teaching the Bible in Hebrew
21:55 Free will and generational punishment
27:24 God's omniscience
30:19 Philosophical questions in the Bible
35:39 Responsibility and choice
40:49 The best thing about teaching

Show notes by Micah Long

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Raising Chickens, Reading Scripture, and Running Governments, Reformed-Style (Jessica Joustra) Jan 06, 2023

What does it mean for Christ to reign over every sphere of life? Many Christians relegate faith to "spiritual" activities, such as reading the Bible, going to church, and praying. However, the Christian tradition—and especially the Reformed tradition—can guide Christians in everything from personal ethics to politics to raising chickens.

In this episode, Dru talks with Jessica Joustra, Assistant Professor of Religion and Theology at Redeemer University, about the ideas of Reformed thinkers Abraham Kuyper and Herman Bavinck (as well as the ways that they draw on John Calvin). As Protestants, these men wanted to capture a faithful, traditional, and thorough way of reading the Bible; as 19th-century men, they strove to live as Christians in the modern world, both through public theology and through active participation in politics. The Reformed tradition offers rich ways of thinking about law, vocation, systemic sin, economics, and even America's contemporary political structures, all while remaining rooted in Scripture's conceptual world.

Jessica Joustra is an Assistant Professor of Religion and Theology at Redeemer University and Associate Researcher at the Neo-Calvinist Research Institute of the Theologische Universiteit Kampen. She teaches in the areas of Reformed theology and ethics, and has contributed to several works centered around Bavinck and Kuyper. Most recently, she and her husband (Robert Joustra) released Calvinism for a Secular Age: A Twenty-First Century Reading of Abraham Kuyper’s Stone Lectures.

Show notes:

0:00 Abraham Kuyper and Herman Bavinck
3:20 Radical shaping of vocation
7:46 God's sovereignty in ethics and politics
11:45 The Reformed tradition and biblical interpretation
14:09 Reformed and "small-c catholic"
17:26 Individual, social, and systemic ethics and sin
26:10 Modernism and politics
31:56 Principled pluralism
37:22 Christian nationalism and the Reformed tradition
43:00 Antithesis and common grace

Show notes by Micah Long

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Most Popular Episode of 2022: ’Going to Heaven’ vs. Resurrection, the New Heavens, and the New Earth (J. Richard Middleton) Dec 23, 2022

In case you missed it, this was our most popular episode of 2022. We hope this conversation encourages Christians with the biblical hope of the resurrection and the age to come.

What happens to you when you die? Many Christians picture eternal life as spending time in an ethereal heaven with God, either immediately after death as a disembodied spirit or after a "rapture" of Christians. Books and films, made by and for Christians, have promoted this idea of the afterlife.

Dr. J. Richard Middleton wants to challenge this particular view of the Christian afterlife. What happens immediately after we die does not much matter to the biblical authors; they concern themselves with proclaiming the hope of the eventual resurrection and preaching the Kingdom of God. In this episode, he discusses common words in our theological vernacular—spirit, soul, resurrection, hell, heaven, etc.—and challenges us to rethink them through a biblical lens. The story of the Bible is not the story of what happens between death and resurrection, but the story of the "redemption of the world."

Dr. Middleton is Professor of Biblical Worldview and Exegesis at Roberts Wesleyan College. He specializes in the Christian worldview, Christianity and postmodernism, Old Testament Theology, and eschatology. His most recent book is A New Heaven and a New Earth: Reclaiming Biblical Eschatology.

Show notes:

0:00 Introductions, N.T. Wright, and the redemption of the world
3:48 Reactions to debunking the rapture
4:57 "What happens to you when you die?"
7:59 God's glory entering the world
10:45 Spiritual versus physical
13:24 The hope of the resurrection
16:42 Believing you go to heaven when you die
18:32 Purgatory, limbo, and the grave
21:03 Resuscitation versus resurrection
25:20 The resurrection, final judgment, and hell

Show notes by Micah Long

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Paying Attention to the People, Places, and Things in the Bible (Kat Armstrong) Dec 16, 2022

Christians know that we should read the Bible. But often, the "should" eclipses the "why"—the fact that Scripture presents a unified, powerful, mysterious story written by God for the benefit of his people.

In this episode, Dru interviews Kat Armstrong, a Bible teacher, speaker, and author who aims to cultivate joyful, imaginative reading of Scripture. The Bible contains rich networks of imagery, but we must read carefully to notice them. Kat's new Bible study series, Storyline Bible Series, takes a deep dive into some of the recurring motifs in Scripture, from mountains and valleys to sticks and stones. Additionally, Kat discusses how her son helps her pay closer attention to the Bible, why the Bible isn't an instruction manual, and how Scripture eschews dividing its characters into "good guys" and "bad guys."

Kat Armstrong is a Bible teacher from Dallas who is passionate about helping people develop holy curiosity and delve more deeply into the story of the Bible. Her work includes speaking at events and conferences and writing books and Bible studies. You can find out more about her at her website.

Show notes:

0:00 A message from Dru Johnson
2:05 Scripture as one unified story
3:34 How to read the details of Scripture
7:14 Getting "fresh eyes"
8:31 Enthusiasm for the Bible
12:05 Kat's experience at Dallas Seminary
15:18 Appreciating the artistic brilliance of Scripture
21:00 Tracking the connections in Scripture
24:12 Is biblical imagery just coincidental?
28:28 Mountains in the biblical narrative
31:48 Kat Armstrong's upcoming Storyline Bible Studies

Show notes by Micah Long

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There Is No West without the Near East (Robert Nicholson) Dec 09, 2022

The Near East carries a strange set of connotations in the modern West. On the one hand, it is the origin of our most significant ethical traditions. On the other, it is an area full of political tensions and years of violent conflict. In this episode, Robert Nicholson (Founder and President of Philos Project and CHT Senior Fellow) helps Christians evaluate their attitudes toward the Near East and its importance for Christian history and the faith today. From the perception of Israel, to the various groups of Muslims in the region, to the frequently-persecuted Christian communities, the Near East presents a complicated combination of religious, ethnic, and political identities. Christians have opportunities to pursue peace by advocating pluralistic respect, recognizing the positive developments in the region, and praying.

Robert Nicholson is the Founder and President of Philos Project, an organization that seeks to promote positive Christian engagement in the Near East. He holds an MA in Middle Eastern history and a JD from Syracuse history, and he also co-founded Passages Israel, serves on the board of In Defense of Christians, and teaches at The King's College. His writings have appeared in major publications including The Wall Street Journal and First Things, and he also hosts the podcast The Deep Map.

Show notes:

2:00 Difficulties engaging with the Near East
4:20 Avoiding negative associations
7:21 The Hebraic origins of the modern world
11:33 Power in the biblical tradition
15:32 "Christian engagement in the Near East"
19:12 Peace and pluralism
24:35 Ethnic and religious tensions
29:13 Jewish as an ethnic, religious, and political identity
32:48 Positive historical trends

For more about one practical way to get involved with the work of Philos Project, check out their 21 Martyrs Pilgrimage Campaign, a fundraising effort to bring the families of the 21 Christian Copts killed in 2015 on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

Show notes by Micah Long

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What If We Took God’s Instruction Seriously? (Ryan O’Dowd) Dec 02, 2022

Is it biblical to "follow your passion"? How do you know if the law is written on your heart? In this week's episode, Dru interviews CHT Fellow Ryan O'Dowd on engaging deeply with the Bible, living in accordance with the Torah's instruction, and ministering as the church. Scripture provides a host of instructions about how to live: everything from the proper view of our passions to helping the marginalized to saving money. But too often, we don't even know what it says—or we just don't take it seriously. As we mirror the practices described in Deuteronomy, like constant public engagement with Scripture, communal feasting, and building flourishing economic communities, we will find that the Bible will open up itself to our understanding.

Rev. Ryan P. O'Dowd is a Senior Fellow at Chesterton House at Cornell University, the pastor at Bread of Life Anglican Church, and an Academic Fellow at CHT. His research interests include wisdom literature and the epistemology of the Torah. He has written for The Biblical Mind about virtual worship and the Lord's Supper and the book of Proverbs as instruction in virtue.

Show notes:

0:00 Confronted by Scripture
2:35 Following your passion
6:07 Jeremiah, Job, and suffering
8:28 Becoming immersed in Scripture
11:02 Engaging the Bible as a community
14:04 Constantly memorizing and discussing Scripture
17:17 Practices that bring us to knowledge of God
22:08 Deuteronomic churches
25:30 Serving and helping the lonely
30:01 Torah economics—saving and feasting
31:33 Right practice and right thinking about Scripture

Show notes by Micah Long

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The Knowledge Crisis and Misinformation in Biblical Perspective (Bonnie Kristian) Nov 18, 2022

Constant cries of "fake news" and misinformation point to a central issue in our culture: we have far too much information from far too many sources, and we do not know whom to trust. Whether captivated by online communities and YouTube personalities or glued to Twitter and news sites, we consume a lot of content but remain ignorant, apathetic, and anxious.

In this episode, Dru interviews Bonnie Kristian about her new book Untrustworthy: The Knowledge Crisis Breaking Our Brains, Polluting Our Politics, and Corrupting Christian Community. They discuss the dangers of our culture's approach to knowledge, the importance of emotion and tradition in developing our beliefs, and how our daily practices shape our knowledge-acquisition. As we critically evaluate our habits, we can learn to better cultivate our attention and equip ourselves to receive and consider information.

Bonnie Kristian is a journalist and author. Currently, she writes the column "The Lesser Kingdom" at Christianity Today. Her work has been featured in The New York Times, USA Today, Politico, and The Daily Beast. Additionally, she holds a Master's degree in Christian Thought from Bethel Seminary.

Show notes:

0:00 The dangers of the knowledge crisis
4:30 Habituation from media
6:50 Emotion and reason in the evangelical world
8:57 The role of tradition
10:52 Good epistemic practices and information overload
14:28 Trustworthy guides and sources of information
20:18 Blind-spots in reporting
24:03 Bonnie's interest in epistemology
28:00 The influence of YouTube and TikTok
32:48 Can we escape our bad knowledge systems?
35:35 Practices to develop right thinking

Show notes by Micah Long

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Wisdom of Primal Peoples in the Era of World Christianity (Jangkholam Haokip) Nov 11, 2022

Christianity is a truly global religion, and every strand of Christianity has its own theological emphases. Western Christians tend to focus on individual salvation and the question of what happens when we die. But as we amplify other Christian voices, we find that the riches of the gospel might stretch far beyond our original conceptions.

In this episode, Dru interviews Dr. Jangkholam Haokip, an Indian theologian, author, and former professor. Growing up in Churachandpur, Manipur, in Northeast India, Jangkholam converted to Christianity as a child. Drawing on his experiences with indigenous Indian culture and religion, he had the opportunity to develop a unique perspective on Christian theology, including Scripture's portrayal of sin's effects on nature, the value of yet-unheard perspectives, and the way that the gospels can affect the lives of whole communities.

After his long career as a professor at Union Biblical Seminary in India, Jangkholam has founded the Bethesda-Khankho Foundation, which aims to transform indigenous Indian communities through education and poverty outreach. He also contributed to the recent book Voices from the Margins: Wisdom of Primal Peoples in the Era of World Christianity.

Show notes:

0:00 Announcement about our upcoming event
1:22 Converting to Christianity
5:03 Further education and understanding the gospel
8:51 Individualism in Western Christianity
15:09 Sin and the health of nature
20:10 Tribal Indian thought in the biblical texts and Western theology
25:48 The value of indigenous theology
29:47 Christianity as a help for Indian history, identity, and culture
31:05 On Jangkholam's new book Voices from the Margins: Wisdom of Primal Peoples in the Era of World Christianity

Show notes by Micah Long

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Our Complicated History with Evil (Discover Your Roots Season 2 Premiere) Nov 04, 2022

Hitler is evil. Helping an old lady cross the street is good. Simple, right? But there’s an underlying question here: Why? What are good and evil?

In this crossover with our partner organization Passages Israel, Dru Johnson (CHT Director) and Mattanah DeWitt kick off Season 2 of Discover Your Roots, which aims to unpack weighty questions about the nature of good and evil. In this episode, Dru gives an overview of the season, walking us through a few common conceptions (and misconceptions!) about good and evil through the lens of psychology, philosophy, culture, and—ultimately—Scripture. The whole season is available here!

Discover Your Roots is produced by Passages Israel. Passages sponsors and coordinates journeys to the Holy Land to strengthen the faith of Christian students, connect them to Israel, and prepare them for a life of Christ-centered leadership.

Show notes:

0:00 Announcing the upcoming CHT event in NYC
1:23 Introducing Season 2
2:20 How modern culture thinks about evil
7:40 Definitions of evil
9:57 The theological history of evil
13:42 The Hebrew word ra
15:20 Why our words lose their weight
17:07 An overview of the Bible's view
21:59 God using evil for good
23:29 Analyzing the golden calf story
27:29 Turning toward good
29:41 The redemption of the world
32:23 Preview of the rest of the season

Show notes by Micah Long

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Moving from Egypt to the U.S. as a Coptic Christian (Mariam Wahba) Oct 21, 2022

Dru interviews Mariam Wahba, a Coptic Christian born in Egypt who immigrated to the U.S. as a child. They discuss the multiple facets of her identity and experience, including how being a Coptic Christian shaped everything from her interactions with Muslim Egyptians to how she now celebrates holidays in the U.S. She also describes some of the distinctives of Coptic Christianity, in contrast with Western Christianity, and explores the tension between cultural assimilation and retaining one's native identity as an immigrant.

Mariam Wahba is the Associate Directory of Advocacy at the Philos Project. A graduate from Fordham University, she works in the areas of Middle Eastern foreign policy, religious freedom, and Israeli-Arab relations. She co-hosts the podcast Americanish.

Show notes:

0:00 Moving to the United States
3:11 Egyptian and Coptic identity
7:50 Growing up in Islamic Egypt
11:00 Ethnic and religious identity
12:20 Moving to the west
16:30 Cultural assimilation and retaining identity
18:56 Coptic Christianity
23:47 Confession, intercession, and priesthood
25:51 The Coptic church calendar
30:04 Persecuted Christianity versus cultural Christianity
34:19 The most important part of being Egyptian

Show notes by Micah Long

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The Pitfalls of Children’s Bibles (Rachel Wilkowski) Oct 14, 2022

"Why wasn't I trained to read this way as a child?" —Rachel Wilkowski

Over the last several decades, the Christian world has eagerly produced a host of children's Bibles—retellings of biblical stories in "kid-friendly" language, complete with cute, colorful illustrations. Many of these children's Bibles, however, come laden with assumptions about the nature of childhood, which parts of Scripture are considered appropriate, and what "lesson" the stories teach. Rachel Wilkowski, a researcher in the area of children's Bibles, joins Dru Johnson to discuss history and pitfalls of these books. They discuss the impacts of "pre-interpreting" the biblical texts for children, including the propensity toward moralism and sanitizing some of the difficult parts of Scripture. They also consider how religious beliefs and the publishing industry combine to shape what is presented in these retellings of Scripture.

Rachel Wilkowski is a PhD student at Trinity College Dublin and Family Ministries Director at St. Peter's Fireside in Vancouver. She has particular research interest in how Genesis 1-3 (and other parts of the Hebrew Bible) are interpreted and retold in children's Bibles from different Jewish and Christian traditions. She has 14 non-biological nieces and nephews and one biological nephew.

Show notes:

0:00 Rachel's interest in children's Bibles
4:18 The history of children's Bibles
8:38 Religious beliefs and retelling Scripture
12:05 What is considered appropriate for kids?
15:33 Examples of poor retellings
19:57 Sales, illustrations, and entertainment
24:14 A children's Bible that gets it?
26:42 Helping kids read Scripture
29:41 Avoiding pre-interpreting Scripture and moralism

Show notes by Micah Long

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Israelites vs. Hebrews vs. Jews . . . ? (Jason Staples) Oct 07, 2022

What do we mean when we say that "Jesus was a Jew?" Scripture uses a lot of labels to refer to God's chosen people, including "Israelite," "Judahite," "Hebrew," and, of course, "Jew." In this episode, Jason Staples helps us sort through the etymologies, histories, ethnicities, and nationalities behind these labels, examining the earliest usage of "Jew" in the Hebrew Bible, its role in the Second Temple Period, and its interpretations in the modern era. He also considers key Bible passages that use these labels and helps debunk a common assumption about "Jew" as a pejorative term.

Jason Staples teaches at North Carolina State University in the areas of biblical literature, early Judaism and Christianity, and modern issues in ethics and religion. He is the author of The Idea of Israel in Second Temple Judaism: A New Theory of People, Exile, and Israelite Identity. In addition to his scholarly work, Jason has worked in sports media and voiceover narration.

Show notes:

0:00 The history of the word "Jew"
3:54 "Jew" versus "Israelite" in Scripture and beyond
9:12 Jewish nationality and ethnicity after the exile
14:33 What happened to the other tribes?
15:50 Jesus was a Jew
20:23 "King of the Jews" and King of the universe
21:58 "The Israel of God"
26:09 Paul as an Israelite and a Hebrew

Show notes by Micah Long

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Growing Up Christian in the Gaza Strip (Khalil Sayegh) Sep 30, 2022

In this week's episode, Khalil Sayegh shares his experience as a Palestinian Christian. The territory of Palestine contains two regions: the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Though they share a people and a history, the two areas are separated by the country of Israel and are ruled by two different governments (the West Bank by the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Gaza Strip by Hamas). Khalil discusses the modern political and religious dynamics at play in the Gaza Strip, including the relationships between Israel and Hamas and between Islam and Christianity. He also surveys Christianity in Palestine, from its use of Scripture to its approach to evangelism.

Khalil Sayegh is a Fellow at the Philos Project. He grew up in the Gaza Strip and currently lives in the West Bank. His public work focuses on challenging the negative perceptions of Jewish people in Palestinian society and promoting peace among the various religious groups in the region. He has studied at Bethlehem Bible College and American University.

Show notes:

0:00 Growing up in Gaza
1:54 War, mobility, and Christianity in Gaza
5:35 Sunni Islam and political parties
7:24 Gaza's Christian churches
9:15 Interactions between Christianity and Islam
11:03 Political power in Gaza
14:36 Christmas, Hamas, and public Christianity
16:27 Conditions for visiting the West Bank
19:30 Views of Christian Scripture in Palestine
26:11 Evangelism and responses to conversion
28:22 Cultural distinctives of the Palestinian church

Show notes by Micah Long

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Revelation 101: Leaving Behind Left Behind (Jason Staples) Sep 23, 2022

"This is a revelation of how things are, not so much how things have been." -Jason Staples

Modern Christians reading the Book of Revelation tend to filter it through the lens of popular fiction (such as the Left Behind series) and a very modern concept of its strange language and imagery. From the four horsemen, to the secret thunder in chapter 10, to the mixing of metaphors throughout the text, Revelation presents a challenge for modern readers.

In this episode, Dr. Jason Staples (Assistant Teaching Professor at North Carolina State University) helps sort through the symbols in the Book of Revelation. By examining the historical context of late Second Temple Judaism, the genre of apocalypse, and key passages from the Hebrew Bible, the meanings of the symbols begin to emerge. Though many passages remain mysterious, even to trained scholars, the Book of Revelation communicates a message of central importance about the present Kingdom of God and the role of the church in the world.

Jason Staples teaches in the areas of biblical literature, early Judaism and Christianity, and modern issues in ethics and religion. He is the author of The Idea of Israel in Second Temple Judaism: A New Theory of People, Exile, and Israelite Identity. In addition to his scholarly work, Jason has worked in sports media and voiceover narration.

Show notes:

0:00 Signs and symbols
2:40 Understanding ancient reading norms
6:42 Finding context for Revelation in other literature
8:02 The Jewish experience in the 1st and 2nd centuries
14:16 Defining the apocalypse genre
19:40 Revelation and the Kingdom of God
23:31 Mystery and God's control
26:20 Reading the Hebrew Bible to understand Revelation
32:42 New Heavens and the New Earth

Show notes by Micah Long

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Would Moses Forgive Student Debt? (Michael Rhodes) Sep 16, 2022

The Biden Administration's recent student debt forgiveness act in the U.S. has sparked conversations—many of them heated—about the nature of fairness, justice, poverty, and economic well-being.

In this episode, Michael Rhodes joins Dru to discuss debt forgiveness in Scripture and the modern world. Rhodes surveys the radical Torah policies of cyclical debt forgiveness and the Year of Jubilee, and how they contrast with the debt forgiveness policies in the rest of the ancient Near East. A world of subsistence farming where predatory loans can create cycles of debt slavery and intergenerational poverty may not immediately seem similar to modern America—but on a closer look, similarities appear.

Michael Rhodes is a Lecturer in Old Testament at Carey Baptist College in New Zealand. He has worked on community development programs in Kenya and South Memphis, and has also served as a pastor. His academic research focuses on the nature of justice and mercy in Torah economics and ritual meals in Scripture. He is also co-author of Practicing the King's Economy: Honoring Jesus in How We Work, Earn, Spend, Save, and Give.

Show notes:

0:00 Debt entrapment and debt slavery
2:53 Predatory lending in the ancient Near East
4:19 Modern American versus ancient Israelite debt forgiveness
7:44 One-off debt forgiveness in the Bible
9:33 Subsistence farming and for-profit colleges
15:15 Intergenerational poverty
22:06 The issue of fairness
26:24 Righteousness, justice, and equity in Deuteronomy and Proverbs
31:04 The ends and means of debt forgiveness
32:26 Jesus and Jubilee

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A Jewish View of the Afterlife in the Hebrew Bible (Jeremiah Unterman) Sep 09, 2022

For Christians accustomed to certain ideas of heaven and hell, other views of the afterlife in Scripture may seem strange. But Jewish views of the afterlife have a storied and fascinating tradition of their own. In this episode, Dru is joined by Dr. Jeremiah Unterman, Senior Fellow at the Center for Hebraic thought. They discuss Jewish views of the afterlife from the ancient to modern times, encountering the concepts of sheol, ruach, gehenna, immortality, and judgment. Dr. Unterman offers perspectives on the story of Saul and the Necromancer, the phrase "gathered to their fathers," burial practices of the ancient Near East, and the role that theodicy plays in developing Jewish views of the afterlife.

Jerry Unterman is a Resident Scholar at the Herzl Institute, former professor (Yeshiva University, Northwestern University, and others), an author, and Senior Fellow at the Center for Hebraic Thought. In 2017, he released Justice for All: How the Jewish Bible Revolutionized Ethics, a look at the influence of the Hebrew Scriptures on the values and practices of the modern world.

Show notes:

0:00 Sheol and polytheism
1:37 Egyptian versus Hebraic views of the afterlife
4:09 Death in the Torah and Psalms
6:07 The Necromancer of Endor
9:18 Burial and "raising up"
13:20 Hellenistic Judaism
17:13 The idea of the soul and the world to come
21:46 Greek versus Hebrew thought in the Apocrypha
24:30 Medieval and Modern Jewish perspectives on the afterlife
29:08 Looking at the New Testament
33:40 The Talmud on Gehenna

Show notes by Micah Long

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Thinking Biblically about Institutions (Ari Lamm) Sep 02, 2022

The Bible tells stories about individuals, families, and nations. But it also tells stories about institutions—the chosen and unchosen social structures that range from marriage, to news media, to the Supreme Court. Today, many people see major institutions as weak, corrupt, or untrustworthy (sometimes correctly). In this episode, Dru welcomes Rabbi Dr. Ari Lamm back to the podcast for the fourth time to discuss the idea of institutions in the Hebrew Bible. Ari surveys the role of institutions the biblical narratives, looking at the earliest chapters of Genesis, the story of Abraham, the golden calf narrative, and the nations of Egypt and Babylon. They also discuss the right response to broken and corrupt institutions, the dangers of "spiritual highs," and the corrective role of prophetic voices.

Rabbi Dr. Ari Lamm is the CEO of Bnai Zion, an organization that aims to strengthen Israel and Jewish people, as well as the host of Good Faith Effort, a podcast that examines the Bible and its interactions with society. He studied Judaism and Christianity at University College London and Princeton University, and received his rabbinical ordination at the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary. He frequently writes and speaks about Jewish values and their positive impact on the world.

Show notes:

0:00 The biblical view of institutions
2:30 Biblical "false starts"
7:15 Abraham and the Bronze Age
10:07 How institutions come to exist
14:27 Unchosen obligations
19:40 Egypt and Babylon
23:38 Being born into corrupt systems
27:22 Spiritual awakenings and religious practices
34:08 The most important verse in the Bible
36:36 The political structure of biblical Israel
44:48 Dealing with broken institutions

Show notes by Micah Long

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The Bonhoeffer of Ethiopia (Abeneazer Urga) Aug 26, 2022

Amid persecution from the Marxist state and a fragmented Ethiopian church, Gudina Tumsa became a figure who advocated a holistic theology of justice, church unity in Ethiopia, and the health and strength of the church more broadly. In this episode, Dru asks Abeneazer Urga about his book The Bonhoeffer of Africa, a biography of Ethiopian theologian Gudina Tumsa. Tumsa's life has brought him comparisons to Martin Luther King, Jr. and Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Along the way, Dru and Abeneazer discuss the state of the church in Ethiopia, from its fourth-century roots to its Christological theology to the way the Western church differs from the modern Ethiopian church.

Abeneazer Urga teaches at the Evangelical Theological College in Ethiopia and is a member of Equip International. He specializes in New Testament and Missiology and has done work exploring holistic theology and theology from an African perspective.

Show notes:

0:00 The history of Christianity in Ethiopia
3:35 Modern Ethiopian Christianity
6:11 Christology in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church
9:32 The persecution and influences of Gudina Tumsa
15:57 Tumsa in the United States
20:41 Practicing holistic theology
22:50 Unity of the Ethiopian church
25:53 The evangelical movement in Ethiopia
28:20 Tumsa and the youth of Ethiopia
29:55 Abeneazer's experience in modern Ethiopia and the United States

Show notes by Micah Long

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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ICYMI: What Is the Point of Prayer? Does It Change God’s Mind? (John C. Peckham) Aug 19, 2022

This episode was originally published in July, 2021. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.

If God is sovereign, what is the point of prayer? Is it merely a meditative exercise, or do our petitions shape the outcome of history?

Prayer is a ritual and relational device Christians use to communicate with God. God is open to the requests of all people everywhere and actually wants to bring mercy and blessings instead of judgment—but that doesn’t mean that the function of prayer is simple to understand. Prayer is a nuanced activity. In this conversation, Dru Johnson and John C. Peckham answer a variety of questions surrounding prayer. Does God hear the prayers of people outside of the lineage of Israel? Can God act in contradiction to His promises and His Word if we pray for it? Does a person's character affect how God answers their prayers?

Show notes:

0:00 Why pray to God?
3:33 What did the biblical authors think of prayer?
9:03 Effective prayers
14:25 Do we get all we pray for?
23:44 What is the role of hope?

Show notes by Serena Tuomi.

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The Dangers of Celebrity in the Church (Katelyn Beaty) Aug 12, 2022

We live in a fame-saturated culture. Celebrity figures run our largest corporations, media entities, and megachurches. But the characteristics of celebrity—unquestioned authority, dynamic public personas, and tendency toward abuse—make it a dangerous feature in Christian churches. Recent stories about abusive, exploitative celebrity pastors have spotlighted this fact.

In this episode, Katelyn Beaty discusses her new book Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church. She identifies the key features of fame and celebrity that infect every element of our culture and diagnoses their central issues, including secrecy, self-promotion, anger, and pride. She asks whether the business world has become the model for the church and whether the American church is unique in its elevation of celebrity pastors. The church needs to know the dangers of celebrity and find ways to remain accountable in its pursuit of the gospel.

Show notes:

0:00 Seeking versus receiving fame
2:14 Celebrity and self-promotion
4:48 When the platform becomes the point
9:00 Public personality and false intimacy
12:21 Billy Graham and the Modesto Manifesto
18:06 Anger, narcissism, leadership, and celebrity
21:35 Privacy versus secrecy
24:40 Church boards
28:23 American megachurches
34:21 Avoiding celebrity pastors

Show notes by Micah Long

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Forming Trauma-Safe Churches (Scott Harrower and Joshua Cockayne) Aug 05, 2022

We hear the word "trauma" a lot today—but what does it really mean? For Christians who have experienced horrific, overwhelming, life-threatening events events, the church can be a place either of fear or of healing. In this episode, Scott Harrower and Joshua Cockayne discuss their new book Dawn of Sunday: The Trinity and Trauma-Safe Churches (written with Preston Hill). They examine attitudes and practices that help us recognize, accept, and respond to traumatized individuals within the church. As the church becomes a community of help and safety, and as its members grow in Christlikeness, it can become a haven for the traumatized and vulnerable.

Scott Harrower is a Lecturer in Christian Thought at Ridley College and an ordained Anglican minister. He writes on the history of early Christianity and philosophical issues such as the problem of evil. Joshua Cockayne is a Divinity Honorary Lecturer at the University of St. Andrews. His research focuses on spirituality and ecclesiology, and he works in the area of analytic theology.

Show notes:

0:00 Distinguishing trauma from other kinds of pain or distress
3:20 Commonplace horrors and their effects
5:35 Writing Dawn of Sunday
8:26 Seeing and responding to grief
11:38 Responsible practices for dealing with trauma
14:49 Making church a safe place
20:21 Symptoms of trauma
26:00 The church as a community of help
31:03 Aiding those who are experiencing ongoing trauma

Show notes by Micah Long

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Repentance in Deed and Word (Shalom Carmy) Jul 29, 2022

We all desire repentance, forgiveness, and reconciliation. But these concepts are complicated, and seeing them from a Jewish perspective on biblical law can provide a fresh perspective to non-Jews. In this episode, the discussion of repentance and forgiveness continues with Rabbi Shalom Carmy and Dru Johnson. They distinguish between the action of repentance and the intention of repentance and question whether you can really reconcile without both. They also consider group forgiveness, and whether any one member of a group can facilitate reconciliation on behalf of the group. Growing in these practices, and doing them biblically, requires sustained and frequent reflection on their significance.

Shalom Carmy is Assistant Professor of Jewish Philosophy and Bible at Yeshiva University. He specializes in biblical interpretation and modern Jewish thought, and writes for several religious and Jewish publications. He previously wrote “And God Saw Their Deeds”: Biblical Repentance in Action (and Less So in Feeling) for The Biblical Mind.

Show notes:

0:00 Actions versus words
3:32 Repentance and forgiveness for groups
7:00 Forgiveness in the Holocaust
13:03 Commanding repentance
17:28 Yom Kippur
20:39 Regret, confession, and resolve
26:17 Progressing in repentance
28:08 The inner experience of reconciliation
32:27 What is real forgiveness?

Show notes by Micah Long

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Q&A Series: Is There Marriage in Heaven? (Dru Johnson) Jul 22, 2022

From Genesis, marriage looks like it is one of the most important parts of creation. So, does Jesus really say in Luke 20 that there will be no "marrying and giving in marriage" in the new heavens and earth? In the first episode of The Biblical Mind Q&A series, Dru Johnson examines the phrase "marrying and giving in marriage" across Scripture—and what Jesus really meant by it.

In Luke 20, the Sadducees approach Jesus and ask about a woman who had multiple husbands. Jesus' response might seem to suggest that no one is married in the age of resurrection. Dru argues that Luke has in mind a broader, more subtle point about the resurrection and the end of the world.

Dru Johnson is the Director for the Center of Hebraic Thought, the host of The Biblical Mind Podcast, and an Associate Professor of Biblical and Theological Studies at The King's College. He is also the author of the recent book Biblical Philosophy: A Hebraic Approach to the Old and New Testaments.

Show notes:

0:00 Introduction—is there marriage in heaven?
2:43 Marriage as part of the structure of creation
4:10 Examining Luke 20
10:14 The purpose of Luke's gospel
14:35 Luke 17: "Marrying and giving in marriage"
21:21 Why Jesus isn't actually talking about marriage

Show notes by Micah Long

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Discussing the New CHT Book on Gender in the Bible (Feat. 3 of the Contributors) Jul 15, 2022

This episode previews the CHT's new book The Biblical World of Gender: The Daily Lives of Ancient Women and Men. Three of the authors from the book (Carmen Imes, Nijay Gupta, and Cynthia Shafer-Elliott) discuss their contributions. They touch on the gender assumptions in the ancient Near East and Roman Empire, along with some of the Bible's challenging passages about slavery and authority.

Carmen Imes is Associate Professor of Old Testament at Biola University and the author of Bearing God's Name: Why Sinai Still Matters. She has been a missionary to the Philippines and releases "Torah Tuesday" videos on her YouTube channel. Nijay Gupta is Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary, Editor-in-Chief of the Bulletin for Biblical Research, and the author of Paul and the Language of Faith. Cynthia Shafer-Elliott is Associate Dean and Associate Professor in the School of Theology and Leadership at William Jessup University. She does archaeological research on ancient Israel, including households, food preparation, and gender dynamics in the family, and is an editor of the recent T&T Clark Handbook of Food in Ancient Israel and the Hebrew Bible.

Show notes:

Carmen Imes

0:00 Why we need to examine the biblical authors' view of gender
3:42 The "sanctified imagination" and entering into the biblical story
5:20 A selection from Carmen Imes's essay "Freedom Fighters of the Exodus"

Nijay Gupta

9:07 Understanding Paul's "harshness"
11:58 The biblical authors on the rape of slaves
14:15 Examples of radical early Christian ethics
16:26 Gender differences in the first-century Roman Empire

Cynthia Shafer-Elliott

18:48 The importance of household archaeology
21:19 Understanding the cultural assumptions of the biblical texts
25:44 Hierarchy versus heterarchy

Show notes by Micah Long

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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ICYMI: How the Translation of ’Faith’ in the Bible Falls Short (Matt Bates) Jul 01, 2022

This episode was originally published in March, 2021. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.

Many of us have learned definitions of faith, belief, and trust that merely concern internal mental states. We say we believe something when we mentally affirm its truth, and we say we trust God when we believe what the Bible says. But these introspective forms of faith aren't really what the biblical authors have in mind when they talk about faith in the Bible. For them, faith is more of a full-bodied allegiance to Jesus, a commitment to serve and work alongside Him as our King.

In this episode, Dr. Matthew Bates talks to Dru Johnson about allegiance and faith in the Bible. They consider how, in the context of the Roman empire, the idea of loyalty in patron–client relationships shaped the way the biblical authors understood trust, authority, and honor. Along the way, they also discuss some of the biblical metaphors for salvation that are drawn from the social dynamics of the ancient world, and how the Hebrew Bible influenced the New Testament's view of power and authority. They conclude by outlining about how modern people can understand the language of kingdom and lordship in Scripture, and how the church can inculcate rituals of allegiance in the body of Christ.

Show notes:

0:00 Trusting with our bodies, not just with our minds
3:55 The word pistis in the Roman world
6:50 Metaphorical language to describe our salvation
9:48 What allegiance looks like
14:15 How to think about Jesus' lordship
17:46 Continuity between the New Testament and the Hebrew Bible
20:00 Allegiance rituals in the church

Learn more about Matt Bates.

Matthew Bates's most recent book: Gospel Allegiance: What Faith in Jesus Misses for Salvation in Christ

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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How the Early Church Engaged with Scripture (Brian J. Wright) Jun 24, 2022

When we think of the early church, some of us might imagine groups of illiterate believers guided by one or two trained readers or teachers. In fact, the historical reality was very different. Brian J. Wright describes an ancient world obsessed with reading—especially public, communal reading of significant texts, including lots of questioning and dialogue.

In this episode, Dru Johnson and Brian Wright examine literacy levels in the Roman Empire, the early church's engagement with Paul's letters, and historical evidence about reading in the first and second centuries. They also discuss the modern church's Bible engagement, and how we can take a more dialogical and active approach to reading Scripture.

Brian J. Wright is an associate pastor at Denia Community Church, an adjunct professor, and author of Communal Reading in the Time of Jesus: A Window into Early Christian Reading Practices. He studies communal reading in the scholarly context, challenging long-held views about literary culture, and also encourages contemporary communal reading practices.

Show notes:

0:00 The "public reading mania" of the early Christian era
3:20 Transformative, communal texts
5:53 Literacy levels in the Roman Empire
9:40 Defining "communal"
12:23 Jewish practices for reading and debating Scripture
14:18 A culture of collective correction
17:27 Early Christian dialogue
21:11 Dialogue in the modern church
26:47 Reading entire epistles
32:40 Reading "as long as time permits"
35:28 Augustine about Ambrose reading

Tweetable Quote

"There's wisdom in us doing it [reading and teaching] together. Everything about the community is really at the heart of the conversation."

Show notes by Micah Long

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Entering the Hell and Heartbreak of the Grotesque Book of Judges (Daniel Stulac) Jun 17, 2022

Is the Book of Judges a morality play? A celebration of violence? An injunction against moral relativism? Could it be . . . good news?

In this week's episode, Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Daniel J. Stulac, who challenges us to enter the hell and heartbreak of this grotesque, violent, and provocative part of Scripture. Rather than adopting moralistic readings of Judges (common in Sunday school classes and children's Bibles), Daniel wants us to read Judges prophetically—as a book that mirrors the violence in our own hearts and turns us to greater dependence on an a King who will set things right.

Dr. Stulac is a visiting assistant professor of Old Testament at Duke Divinity School, and the author of the recent monograph, Gift of the Grotesque: A Christological Companion to the Book of Judges. His other areas of interest include the agriculture of ancient Israel and the intersection of agrarianism and biblical hermeneutics.

Show notes:

0:00 Misconceptions about the Book of Judges
2:59 The "theological nightmare"
6:45 Violence in the Bible
9:12 Time shifting in Judges
12:46 Judges as literature of exile and testing
17:35 Entering hell
20:25 Idolatry and controlling the divine
25:46 Judges and the Torah
31:03 Why does Israel need a king?

Tweetable quote:

"At the heart of idolatry is the desire to be in control of the divine." (22:10)

Show notes by Micah Long

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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True Sabbath Isn’t Narcissism Disguised as Self-Care (Kelsey Osgood) Jun 10, 2022

In a world of distractions, hyperactivity, and burnout, many of us yearn for rest from our work and our devices. To find this rest, many have turned to the Jewish practice of shabbat or sabbath, ceasing at least some of their regular activity during one day of the week.

Kelsey Osgood, a graduate of Colombia University and Goucher College, is a writer and practicing Orthodox Jew. In this episode, Dru and Kelsey discuss her recent article, "Why Your 'Digital Shabbat' Will Fail." Kelsey argues that resting in religious community, rather than as an individual—and not merely for personal reasons, but because God requires it—is a practice that, though difficult, is deeply beneficial.

Show notes:

0:00 Preparing for Shabbat
5:35 Discussing Kelsey's recent article
9:00 Two major problems with an individual "digital shabbat"
12:56 Narcissism disguised as self-care
14:19 Can individual Christians practice shabbat?
19:28 The discomfort of practicing Judaism
22:47 The benefits of practicing shabbat

Show notes by Micah Long

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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African Perspectives on Multiculturalism and Economic Justice (Gift Mtukwa) Jun 03, 2022

The church should not only perform charity work, but also pursue economic justice.

Dr. Gift Mtukwa joins Dru Johnson to discuss the Kenyan church and Gift's Pauline scholarship. They examine the importance of multiculturalism in the church, which requires navigating cultural differences in language, worship style, and socioeconomic status. Additionally, Gift explains how reading Paul helps the modern Kenyan church understand poverty, economic opportunity, and financial prudence.

Gift Mtukwa is the Chair of the Department of Religion and Christian Ministry at Africa Nazarene University and lead pastor of the University Church of the Nazarene. Born in Zimbabwe, he now lives in Nairobi, Kenya. His research centers on contextual readings of Scripture, especially Paul's letters.

Show notes:

0:00 Different Kenyan tribes in the same church
3:16 The importance of diverse leadership
5:50 Explaining the Kenyan tribes
9:24 Kenyan impressions of majority-white churches
12:03 Evangelism in Africa
13:45 Paul's approach to multiculturalism
19:15 Understanding "if you don't work, you don't eat"
22:58 Poverty in rural and urban Kenya
25:34 How the church can help people in poverty
30:49 Pastoral education in economics and community development
33:33 Pros and cons of the American church

Show notes by Micah Long

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Reissue: What Does Reconciliation Mean for Sexual Abuse Survivors? (Rachael and Jacob Denhollander) May 27, 2022

This episode was originally published on February 4, 2022. In light of the Southern Baptist Convention's release of a report on sexual abuse within the denomination, we thought this episode was worth reissuing for our newer listeners.

This week, Rachael and Jacob Denhollander joined the podcast to discuss what reconciliation and restoration can look like following horrific abuse. Rachael Denhollander, a lawyer and former gymnast, rose to international prominence in 2016 when she became the first woman to publicly denounce and pursue criminal charges against former USA Gymnastics’ team doctor Larry Nassar, who sexually abused more than 500 girls and women. Rachael authored What Is a Girl Worth?, which explores her story in depth.

In cases of abuse and sexual misconduct within the church, Christians can become fixated on forgiving and forgetting, and fear what will happen if the church gets bad press. But God will continue preserving His church, hence our job is not to protect the church from critique; it is to pursue justice. Failure to do so systemically enables sexual abuse. Justice and reconciliation must go hand in hand.

Show Notes:

0:26 Is forgiveness necessary for reconciliation?
6:41 Returning to a proper understanding of God's justice
11:49 There's a cost to caring
17:32 The spirit of humility
20:25 Sexual violence and the church
27:04 God's justice
31:40 How do we restore what was broken?
34:11 Complicit organizations—can you forgive an organization?

Tweetable: "The church has an obligation to pursue justice because that's who God is."

Resources: https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/6-ways-pastors-can-care-for-victims-of-sexual-abuse/

https://churchcares.com/ Show notes by Dominique LaCroix Credits for the music used in TBM podcast: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Who Is the ’Foreigner’ We’re Supposed to Love? (M. Daniel Carroll R.) May 20, 2022

The history of humanity is the history of migration. People have always been on the move, in Scripture and in the modern day. Understanding the migrants near us, their experiences, and the languages they speak can equip us to love them better.

M. Daniel Carroll R., author of Global Migration and Christian Faith: Implications for Identity and Mission, explains our biblical obligation to love the foreigner, which includes not only people from a foreign country but also those with different socioeconomic backgrounds or even just very different life experiences.

Show notes:

1:07 Immigration in Scripture
4:11 Migration = people-moving
5:55 Dru's controversial view
7:15 Forced migration
12:45 Caring for the foreigner
20:46 The new has come
34:50 Language of the heart

Q&A: Email us your questions about the intellectual world of the Bible at cht_administrator@tkc.edu, and we'll answer them in an upcoming Q&A episode.

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Knowing God through Welcoming the Stranger (Mark Glanville) May 13, 2022

The Old Testament, especially Deuteronomy, repeatedly entreats the Israelites to welcome the stranger. The Israelites were required to love the stranger because God loves the stranger. In the gospels, Jesus practices this teaching continually, forming a makeshift family from the vulnerable around him. The church should likewise adopt the stranger and the vulnerable as family, because this is God’s design for humanity.

Mark Glanville, pastor and professor of pastoral theology, discusses the biblical ethic of welcoming refugees; his involvement in Kinbrace, a Canadian nonprofit that provides refugee housing and support; and how welcoming those on the margins can shape our view of Scripture and the world.

Show notes:

1:07 Welcoming refugees and Kinbrace
4:53 Welcoming is witnessing
6:53 Do Christians have a requirement to help refugees?
11:24 Addressing criminality
13:56 Exile
18:39 Shaping our view of the world
22:51 Kinship
35:20 Reading from diversity

Q&A: Email us your questions about the intellectual world of the Bible at cht_administrator@tkc.edu, and we'll answer them in an upcoming Q&A episode.

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Reissue: Violence in the Bible Isn’t What You Think It Is (Matt Lynch) May 06, 2022

This episode was originally published on October 16, 2020. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.

Many readers of Scripture are jarred when God and Israel commit violence in the Old Testament. From the conquest of Canaan, to the lives of the biblical patriarchs, to the great flood in Genesis, we cannot avoid the fact that God and His people fight and kill. This can lead to a crisis of faith—how can God be good if He is violent?

Dr. Matt Lynch, Assistant Professor of Old Testament at Regent College, wants to reframe our questions; rather than merely worrying about God's use of violence, we could instead ask how the biblical authors are critiquing our use of violence. In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Lynch about how the Bible portrays violence. They discuss Scripture's persistent connection between violence and tumult, and the difference between justified forceful harm and unjust violence. They also address the ethical connection between human beings and the rest of creation, and how violence in the Old Testament and New Testament separates humanity from God and the earth.

Show notes:

0:00 The problem of violence in the Old Testament and New Testament
2:25 Introducing Dr. Matthew Lynch and his work
7:12 Violence in Scripture versus violence in the modern world
11:50 War with the Canaanites in the book of Joshua
14:28 Ethics, ecology, and the environment
22:47 The New Covenant and our relationship to creation
24:24 The overarching perspective on violence in Scripture
29:15 Listening to the biblical texts for their questions

Dr. Lynch's new book: Portraying Violence in the Hebrew Bible: A Literary and Cultural Study

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Rituals Teach: Why We Can’t Ignore Leviticus (Mark Scarlata) Apr 29, 2022

If God teaches us through rituals, then we have a responsibility to examine these rituals. By studying them, asking questions, and engaging with them, we can better understand God’s holiness.

The Book of Leviticus is concerned with so many aspects of life (what we eat, what we wear, etc.), and it offers us a holistic way to interact with the world and truly be set apart.

Rev. Dr. Mark Scarlata joins Dru Johnson this week to discuss his book, A Journey through the World of Leviticus: Holiness, Sacrifice, and the Rock Badger and how engaging with Leviticus and its laws can help us better understand God and the rest of Scripture.

Show notes:

0:26 Laying of hands and Leviticus
3:57 Tearing down walls of holiness (Leviticus 19)
11:04 Reaction to rules
18:30 Sacrificial animals and objects
24:15 Jesus’ concern with Leviticus
27:12 What do the Brits think about American Christians

Q&A: Email us your questions about the intellectual world of the Bible at cht_administrator@tkc.edu, and we'll answer them in an upcoming Q&A episode.

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Update: Now Accepting Questions for Upcoming Q&A Episodes! Apr 28, 2022

We at the CHT and TBM are curious about your thoughts and questions regarding the intellectual world of the Bible! We’re now inviting listeners to send us questions, and we’ll start answering them in upcoming Q&A episodes. You can email us your questions at cht_administrator@tkc.edu.

Have you ever wanted to jump into a conversation between Dru and one of our guests? Do you want to probe more deeply into a topic of a previous episode? Or do you perhaps have a question on a topic we’ve never discussed, but that you think we could answer? We look forward to hearing from you!

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What Can Non-Jewish Clergy Learn from Jewish Studies? (Jeff Jacoby) Apr 15, 2022

This week, Jeff Jacoby, op-ed columnist for The Boston Globe since February 1994, joined Dru to discuss his essay in Sapir, "Jewish Study for Non-Jewish Clergy." He proposes a project of study with deep historical roots that would benefit clergy and anyone who takes religion seriously, not just as an abstract intellectual exercise.

He writes, "Imagine that it were possible for non-Jewish clergy — Catholic, Muslim, Baha’i, Mormon, Baptist, Hindu — to have the opportunity to engage meaningfully with the world of Torah study from the inside, even if for only a limited time."

0:30 Essay in Sapir
3:53 The Jethro Project
13:58 The Jewish style of questioning on the spot
28:51 Why would this program be valuable?
33:00 Experiencing Sabbath in Israel

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The Sexual Reformation: What Does the Bible Actually Say about Gender? (Aimee Byrd) Apr 08, 2022

Certain modern stereotypes and gender roles influence how women and men in the church understand their humanity and sexuality. When people fall short of these expectations, they can feel inadequate. An idea that has pervaded church history is that men and women are polar opposites. Famous theologians have called women inferior. Regarding gender, what is actually "biblical," and what is merely cultural—and sometimes very harmful?

This week, Aimee Byrd critiques the stereotypes in light of her new book The Sexual Reformation, with an eye to restoring the dignity of personhood. She focuses mainly on the Song of Solomon to explore what the roles of men and women, married and single, truly are based on God’s spousal love for His people.

Show notes:

0:26 Am I feminine enough? Am I masculine enough?
4:57 The ideal human
7:45 Masculinity and aggression
11:26 Marriage as a picture of God’s love
13:20 The Aristotelian person
16:31 The effect on women
19:23 The last man standing is a woman
23:09 Women in Scripture
31:45 Embodied spirituality
34:40 You are valuable
38:00 What Aimee would say to those who disagree

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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A Look Back at Rethinking ’Quiet Time’ (Jen Wilkin) Apr 01, 2022

This episode was originally published on January 1, 2021. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.

Why do many Christians elevate the practice of "quiet time": isolated, often hurried and brief daily Bible-reading? Jen Wilkin—author, speaker, and leader of many Bible studies—challenges this practice. She believes that, rather than instilling deep Bible literacy, the typical "quiet time" encourages shallow reading and pursuit of instant gratification in the form of cheap satisfaction or vague encouragement at the expense of comprehension.

Reading any book this way would not yield a thorough grasp of its themes, narrative, characters, and worldview, Jen says, so why read the Bible this way? While affirming its inerrancy, Jen cautions against treating Scripture like a magic 8-ball. The practice of quiet time is indeed formative, but not necessarily for the better. She proposes an alternative method of Bible study involving, among other things, extended (if not daily) reading and regular input from other careful Scripture-readers.

Show notes:

0:25 The problem with "quiet time"
8:06 English literature and magic 8-balls
18:56 Setting low expectations for Bible literacy in the church
23:17 The effectiveness of raising the bar
31:21 Why Jen Wilkin focuses on an audience of women

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Beyond Bible Study: From Consumers to Participants (Caroline Smiley and Kyle Worley) Mar 25, 2022

To find your place in the story of Scripture, you have to understand the story and then how the story continues into our world today. Many Christians haven't learned a method for reaching sound theological conclusions, and end up being more defensive than constructive. Some Christians are also content to lack Bible knowledge as long as the pastor or another leader has it, instead of becoming knowledgeable themselves within a community.

Caroline Smiley and Kyle Worley explain how they have partnered to help people learn theological methods and frameworks to study the Bible in a way that is sustainable and replicable.

Show notes:

0:27 Beyond Bible study: the contours of Scripture
3:00 What led to their method
5:06 From consumers to contributors
6:37 Help for poorly formed theology
13:49 Challenges of leadership
17:20 We disembody knowledge with one knower
24:30 An alternative to seminary
27:15 Theological education
30:16 Practicing knowledge in the church
31:40 Next steps; partnership and sustainability

Book mentioned:

By the Renewing of Your Minds, by Ellen T. Charry

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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What Do Rituals ’Do,’ and What Makes a Ritual Sacred? (Ben Noonan) Mar 18, 2022

Rituals aren't mechanistic activities that may or may not produce a direct, isolated result. Rather, rituals shape a person over time. What distinguishes mundane rituals such as brushing your teeth or drinking coffee from sacred rituals such as baptism?

In Scripture, sacred rituals are formative for particular purposes, separating God’s people from the rest of the world, while simultaneously providing people with a community.

Dr. Ben Noonan joins us to discuss rituals and practices: which ones from the Bible are meant for today, how they change us, and how the rituals we don’t necessarily practice today draw on principles that still can apply to our lives.

Show notes:

0:26 Significance of rituals to faith
2:16 One-time thing?
3:38 The formative aspect of rituals
8:05 Individual and corporate identity
10:21 Is Sabbath a ritual?
14:15 Rituals and sacraments
18:54 “We don’t do those rituals anymore!”
23:32 Can we start with Jesus?
25:16 Talking to those worried about rituals

Show Notes by Dominique LaCroix

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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The True Causes and Purposes of Religious Doubt (Matthew LaPine) Mar 11, 2022

For many people, the stress of the pandemic has amplified what would otherwise be small tensions and concerns. This tensions can eventually cause or manifest as creeping religious doubt, which may be interpreted, rightly or wrongly, as a sign of a larger underlying spiritual problem.

Dr. Matthew A. LaPine, pastor of Theological Development at Cornerstone Church of Ames and author of The Logic of the Body: Retrieving Theological Psychology, joins us this week to discuss how he guides others through their doubts (especially college students), and reminds us that in the midst of brokenness, there is still tremendous joy that flows from fellowship with God and others.

Show notes:

0:27 The true sources of religious doubt
3:55 Faith and the college years
8:50 Emotions, rationality, and spirituality
10:17 How God addresses our doubts
15:20 Difference between determination and control
17:50 Is apologetics effective?
25:05 Befriending good scientists

Show Notes by Dominique LaCroix

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Love Enemies Better through Knowing the Biblical Land (Danielle Parish) Mar 04, 2022

The Jewish and Christian faiths exist because of the events that happened in a particular place and time. To understand biblical texts—including issues of justice and loving strangers and enemies—we should learn something about the places where the events they describe occurred. Danielle Parish, pastor of Spark Church in Palo Alto, CA, who leads study tours in Israel, discusses the importance of the biblical land and how enjoying creation as "guardians of the Garden" can deepen our knowledge of Scripture.

Show Notes:

0:25 Perspectives of God
5:14 Consider the birds of the air
6:23 The Importance of the land
10:25 Climate and connection to the land
14:07 Love your enemies
21:44 Reconciliation
22:59 God of rescue and resurrection
24:19 Recommendation for the average church

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Still Trying to Find Yourself? Try Losing It First (Alan Noble) Feb 25, 2022

One of the most countercultural sentences comes from the Heidelberg Catechism: our only comfort in life and death is that "I am not my own, but but belong—body and soul, in life and in death—to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ." The loudest voices in the contemporary West seem to tell us that we belong to ourselves, that we author our own destinies and create our own identities. This is not the way of Scripture.

It's also an exhausting, depressing, and disappointing way to live. Indeed, belonging to yourself is literally impossible. Counterculturally and even counterintiutively, we need to practice dying to ourselves and living for others, because we belong to God and to our communities.

Though the burden of belonging to others is difficult to bear, with practice and the Holy Spirit’s help it is possible. Dr. Alan Noble joins us to discuss his book You Are Not Your Own, and how to practice belonging to God in a world that is self-seeking.

Show Notes:

0:26 Comfort or solution?
3:42 Practice knowing that you are not your own
7:54 Counting the cost
10:07 Ways God belongs to us
13:55 Dirtlings
15:20 Being = belonging
17:34 Jacques Ellul
19:14 Weaving threads, and the middle-way between resignation and affirmation
27:01 What we’ve lost in renunciation
28:26 Dysfunctional legalism and the singular will
34:40 Stay-at-home parents
38:18 Non-techniques to solve the problem
40:20 Stumbling around, grace, and forgiveness

Other resources mentioned:

The Meaning of the City, by Jacques Ellul

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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The Church Needs African Hermeneutics (Liz Mburu) Feb 18, 2022

Where you are situated in time and space affects how you interpret the world. This cultural, geographical, and historical consciousness likewise forms a hermeneutical lens whereby we read and understand Scripture.

Professor Liz Mburu, a Kenyan theologian and author of African Hermeneutics, joins us this week on the podcast to discuss how she views Scripture through an African hermeneutical lens. One African way of seeing the Bible is as a text of power, with a strong focus on the role of the Holy Spirit.

As members of the body of Christ, Christians around the globe need each other's perspective to develop a full understanding of Christianity and how to practice it.

Show notes:

0:27 Biblical hermeneutics
5:06 Looking at Scripture through the Kenyan lens
10:40 Is there an African hermeneutic?
14:45 Scripture as a text of power
19:06 The native religion informing the hermeneutic
23:17 Pastors visiting witch doctors/syncretism
28:06 The Global church needs all its members

Show Notes by Dominique LaCroix

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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The Politics of Punishment in Evangelical America (Aaron Griffith) Feb 11, 2022

In the latter half of 20th century, the evangelical community's developing attitudes toward crime and punishment overlapped with the increasingly punitive approach of the American criminal justice system. Faith leaders such as Billy Graham and James Dobson cast crime as an issue of the criminal's heart, deemphasizing its enmeshment with broader social structures and ills.

On this episode, Aaron Griffith discusses his book God’s Law and Order: The Politics of Punishment in Evangelical America and how thinking about criminality can help people deepen their understanding of sin and redemption.

Show notes:

0:25 20th-century Christianity and justice
6:31 Crime: A matter of the heart?
15:45 Cities
21:37 How neighborhoods function
26:45 Biblical principles to guide policing
33:00 Equal treatment for all: a biblical perspective
39:00 Is there room for an inclusive, restorative justice model?

Books/articles mentioned:

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Extreme Violence, Nahum, and Reconciliation in the Congo (Jacob Onyumbe Wenyi) Jan 28, 2022

The Democratic Republic of the Congo has been afflicted by war and violence. The people are not always ready for reconciliation, because they are busy seeking justice. Dr. Jacob Onyumbe Wenyi, a professor and a Roman Catholic priest of the diocese of Tshumbe (D.R. Congo), discusses his book on Nahum, "Piles of Slain, Heaps of Corpses."

The violence in the book of Nahum connects directly to the experiences of people in the Congo. Dr. Onyumbe Wenyi explains how Nahum's portrayal of a vengeful God and abhorrent war scenes can speak to severely traumatized communities.

Show notes:

0:27 Wars in the Congo
3:41 How the war affected the culture
6:29 How people live in a context marked by tragedy
10:35 Not ready for reconciliation
11:36 Dr. Onyumbe Wenyi's perspective on forgiveness
15:40 The Book of Nahum
18:36 Piles of Slain, Heaps of Corpses

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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What Biblical Racial Reconciliation Actually Looks Like (Anthony Bradley) Jan 21, 2022

Reconciliation in practice involves local communities acknowledging the wrongs of their particular pasts and figuring out how to move forward— what the responsibilities are and how to live together in peace.

In the area of racial reconciliation, we focus a lot on justice and the responsibilities of the offenders. But biblical reconciliation also requires the injured party to show mercy and eventually let go of the wrongs, which is profoundly humbling to those receiving the mercy.

Dr. Anthony Bradley joins us this week to discuss what has informed current racial tensions and how churches and communities can move forward.

Show notes:

0:26 Examining the racial tensions within a community
1:50 Racial reconciliation and ignoring history
4:19 What informs current racial tensions
7:05 The 80s
10:39 Reconciliation in Scripture and the local past
17:32 Truth required for reconciliation
20:43 Disconnection from history
28:20 Racial solidarity

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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The Torah Is Not a Law Book (Jerry Unterman) Jan 14, 2022

The nation of Israel was born into a world that was already culturally old and established. When the Torah appeared, the ancient Near East contained several law collections. CHT fellow Dr. Jerry Unterman explains that unlike other law codes of the ANE, the Torah is not a law book. Rather, its unique framework reveals it to be a treaty—a covenant between God and His people, embedded in a narrative.

Show Notes:

0:26 What is the world of law in the Torah?
6:02 Hammurabi and "If x, then y"
9:58 The ANE laws were never promulgated to the people
12:43 The God who makes a treaty with the people
15:47 Laws for the people to "tend"
16:50 Shared responsibility
17:36 The way the law works
21:43 Michael LeFebvre's contested article
25:53 God is the source of justice
27:28 What's the difference between laws?

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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No One Asks for Forgiveness in the Bible? (Joshua Berman) Jan 07, 2022

People don't ask for or grant forgiveness in the Bible—at least, not in the way modern people are familiar with. Scripture is less focused on whether someone feels sorry or magnanimous than on practical reconciliation and restoration. Repeatedly in biblical narratives, characters demonstrate this reconciliation with a kiss.

Rabbi Dr. Joshua Berman discusses how forgiveness as we understand it is a modern notion and how the relevant biblical notion differs.

Show Notes:

0:26 The Hebrew Bible doesn't portray apology-and-forgiveness
4:38 Defining relationships
5:52 Forgiveness in Hebrew
7:48 The modern notion of forgiveness
10:35 Kissing
15:34 Torah and incarceration
19:40 We need to "get along"
21:05 The biblical authors on forgiveness
23:55 Reconciliation should be embraced
28:13 What does God think of us?
29:25 Postscript: The Prodigal Son

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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African Americans Understood Paul‘s Words While Slave Owners Twisted Them (Lisa Bowens) Dec 17, 2021

Discussing her book African American Readings of Paul: Reception, Resistance, and Transformation, Dr. Lisa Bowens identifies how people twisted the Scriptures written by the Apostle Paul to promote slavery and justify it as a Christian practice. But at the same time, Dr. Bowens explains, Black Americans were interpreting Paul's writings for themselves, and throughout history, they still appealed to Pauline texts extensively to protest and resist their oppression, and ultimately to build a strong foundation for the American church.

Show notes:

0:26 Hidden voices in Black Christian thought
4:25 What does sScripture actually say?
6:15 Nancy Ambrose and how Paul was preached to the enslaved
10:18 1774 Slave Petition
16:37 The slavery project and the broadening of the canon
19:40 John Jea and the miracle of literacy
25:40 Why we need to hear different voices
29:50 Salvation is spiritual and physical
34:37 For economic gain

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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What Are Sermons for, and How Can They Be Improved? (Jonathan Pennington) Dec 10, 2021

When it comes to preaching, less is more. If you really understand a complex issue, you should be able to write it down on a postcard. In light of this, how does one avoid dumbing down their preaching while still clearly communicating a complex message?

Dru and CHT fellow Dr. Jonathan Pennington discuss his book Small Preaching: 25 Little Things You Can Do Now to Make You a Better Preacher, how to convey rich meaning in a sermon while keeping it simple, and the significance of preaching within a worship service.

Show notes:

0:26 Sermon prep
1:27 How can a preacher avoid common pitfalls?
3:22 Two schools: lofty and simple
7:55 Confidence
9:00 The ideal preacher's life/snack writing
12:48 Should you write your sermon?
17:16 The significance of preaching in the worship service
23:49 Teaching vs. preaching
31:06 "Celebrification" of preaching
33:23 Is preaching performance art?

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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Three Grinches in a Pod: Complicating Christmas Dec 03, 2021

It's that time of year again.

It's the time when those who hate eggnog, pretty lights, cheery music, presents, and joy itself crawl out of their dark, barren hovels, bent on ruining Christmas.

Well, we aren't those people. Let us have our winter festival, says Dru. Let us have our (modest) presents, says Celina. Let us have our feasting, says Amy.

But we all ask, what does the winter festival of American Christmas really have to do with the first and second comings of Jesus Christ? Are traditional Advent practices a straightforward way to redeem the holiday? Do we even want to put the "Christ" back in "Christmas"?

Join Dru, Celina, and Amy as they discuss how we might faithfully improvise rituals of waiting and celebration to help us remember our place within the story of God's promise to the nations through Israel.

0:30 Rushing and conflating—why we're grumpy
6:08 Calling Dru out*
6:49 The fat man in the room: Christmas is not a biblical holy day
9:37 Redeeming Christmas through better rituals?
11:23 An Hebraic spin on Advent
17:22 Distraction from the establishment of God's peace through Israel
19:51 The biblical argument against telling children there's a Santa Claus
21:41 Theologically rich Advent practices

*Despite her protestations, Celina has since admitted that Mariah Carey's "All I Want for Christmas Is You" totally slaps.

Show notes by Celina Durgin

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Toward an Integrated Liturgy of Work and Worship (Matthew Kaemingk) Nov 19, 2021

There is a deep division between work and worship in the West. However, the worship of the ancient Israelites integrated the sanctuary into the streets. What are ways that our work today (even sending emails) can be celebrated and offered to God as a form of worship?

With reference to his book Work and Worship, Matthew Kaemingk explains how the tasks we do every single day can be integrated into our worship and daily liturgy.

Show notes:

0:26 Wandering minds during worship
2:02 Integrated life
2:58 Spiritual divide
4:34 Work and worship
6:13 How do we celebrate our work?
12:00 Corey Wilson
12:40 Imago Dei—workers
17:40 Grander work
20:02 Physical participation in the work of God
22:57 Rituals and liturgies
27:37 Gathering rituals, and honesty with God
30:21 When wealth intercedes for work

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

Credits for the music TBM podcast: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Crying for Justice: Why We Should Pray the ‘Angry‘ Psalms (Trevor Laurence) Nov 12, 2021

Pleas for justice in the book of Psalms—the imprecatory psalms—can make some Christians uncomfortable. They're often passed over in the psalter during worship. How do petitions for justice map onto the mission of Jesus? How are imprecatory prayers compatible with commands to love our neighbors?

Though the Psalms contain many cries for vengeance, they also continually call readers back to a standard of holiness. Trevor Laurence discusses imprecatory prayers, the power of words to express profound pain to God, and how we can instinctively discern God and the world as we struggle through life.

Show notes:

0:26 How should Christians reconcile imprecatory prayers?
4:00 Logic in the request for vengeance and vindication
6:40 Callback to the covenant justice of God
8:36 Rhetorical violence
9:10 Deadly false accusations and the power of words
12:30 What we're missing in our worship
15:36 Profound pedagogies of prayer
17:11 Imagination and embodied experience
20:35 Ritual epistemology
21:34 If Trevor could design a church service
25:32 Policy and advocacy in the church
28:22 Liturgy: patterns that govern your life

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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Reading the Bible While Black: The Crucial Perspective of the Black Church (Esau McCaulley) Nov 05, 2021

"Blackness is a part of American culture." Too often American Christianity is equated with white Christianity, while expressions of Black Christianity are overlooked. Continuing our series "By the Oppressed, to the Oppressed: How the Marginalized Church Reads Scripture," Esau McCaulley, author of Reading While Black, explains how American Black history has given Black Christians an important lens through which to understand Scripture, and how power can actually be a distorting lens. When people hear biblical interpretations they might have missed because of their own experiences, the narrative can change.

Show notes:

0:27 When we misunderstand what we see and hear
3:08 Black Bible reading
6:33 Expressions of Black Christianity
11:36 Distorting the influence of power
16:03 The "Slave Bible"
23:48 Suffering and biblical interpretation
27:14 The use of the Bible in the Civil War
28:24 We need a fuller range of interpretations
34:33 Reevaluating your theological perspective

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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Understanding Supersessionism and the Controversy over a TBM Article (Ari Lamm) Nov 03, 2021

A couple of weeks ago, The Biblical Mind published an article by Michael LeFebvre titled Jesus Restored the Original Purpose of the Law in the New Testament. Some readers expressed concern that the article endorsed supersessionist views. Not intending to suggest supersessionism, Michael revised some language in the article to address the concerns. It was retitled Jesus' Concept of the Law in the New Testament. Some Christians readers said they didn't fully understand the reaction.

In response, Rabbi Dr. Ari Lamm joined the podcast to explain supersessionism, the relationship between Christianity and Judaism, and the reaction to some language in Michael's original article.

Show notes:

0:26 What the original title possibly conveyed
4:30 The relationship between Judaism and Christianity
8:01 Integration of "new" and "old"
9:40 Marcion's argument
14:34 Supersessionism
18:58 Intention with words
23:00 Response to comments
30:50 Ari's stance on the article
48:20 Why is "legalism" a bad word?
55:06 The Pharisees are too lenient

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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Prosperity, Responsibility, and Economics in the Torah (Michael Eisenberg) Oct 29, 2021

Does the Torah mention wealth redistribution? What is the purpose of leaving the corners of your field unharvested? What economic system does the Torah advocate, and how would one live in accordance with it? Join us this week as Michael Eisenberg discusses these questions and more, covered his latest book, The Tree of Life and Prosperity.

Show notes:

0:26 Is the Torah capitalist or socialist? Or . . . ?
4:00 Abraham and empowerment
5:40 Genesis: prescriptive vs. descriptive
8:33 Is "wealth" a bad word?
10:37 Modern example: CEO of Salesforce
11:39 Charity (tzedakah)
14:11 Difference between Adam Smith and Torah
17:49 Fruitfulness
22:40 "Justice with no incarceration"

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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How the Marginalized Church Reads the Bible, Part 1: Vince Bantu Oct 22, 2021

New CHT fellow Dr. Vince Bantu of Fuller Theological Seminary is back on the podcast, this time to discuss the how historically marginalized and oppressed parts of the church understand Scripture better than the dominant church does—from the early church to the African church to the Black church in the U.S. today. Dr. Bantu and Dru explore the interpretive advantages that the lack of political and social power can confer on readers of the Bible—a book written largely by people who suffered oppression and exile.

Show notes:

0:00 The dominant church vs. the marginalized church
6:10 Imperial Christendom and the temptation of political power
13:08 Dualisms of the white church that the Black church doesn't have
20:03 The Black church's grasp on biblical righteousness and justice
29:27 God's providence and the West African slave trade
36:35 The white church's incomplete gospel

Show notes by Celina Durgin

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Two Upcoming Series, Feat. Esau McCaulley, Rachael Denhollander, Others Oct 15, 2021

Starting 10/22:

"By the Oppressed to the Oppressed: How the Marginalized Church Reads the Bible," featuring Vince Bantu, Esau McCaulley, Lisa Bowens, and Anthony Bradley

Upcoming

Series on repentance and reconciliation, featuring Rachael and Jacob Denhollander, and others TBD

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Making Leaders Who Can Make Disciples (The Pillar Seminary) Oct 08, 2021

The Pillar Seminary was founded to address persistent problems in churches and their leadership. Its students not only receive a Scripture-first education—as opposed to theology-first—but also quickly begin practicing what they're taught.

The purpose of studying the biblical texts is to be transformed by them. True "head knowledge" of Scripture involves "heart knowledge"; by practicing biblical principles, we can understand the text better.

Join us this week as Scott Booth, Dan Lowery, and Donnell J. Moore discuss how Pillar's approach to seminary and studying Scripture ultimately transforms students, equipping them to lead in their local churches, make disciples, and meet needs effectively within their ministries.

Show Notes:

0:26 Purpose of the program
2:08 Common core for Bible and leadership
3:23 Leadership training
10:39 Bible classes for the purpose of transformation
11:52 Head knowledge and heart knowledge
14:28 Spiritual autobiography
18:17 Equipped by God
21:37 What is the mission?
22:33 Journeying through the text
28:41 What's the meal, where's the deal?
31:37 Reading the Bible three times through

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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Why Jesus‘ Judaism Matters (Jen Rosner) Oct 01, 2021

Many Christians know that Jesus was a Jew, but they don't necessarily think much about this fact or grasp its significance. In this episode, Jen Rosner discusses the importance of recognizing that Jesus embraced his Jewish identity in his lifetime, and the implications of his Judaism for the church and for our understanding of the New Testament today.

Show notes:

0:27 Encountering the New Testament as a Jew
3:07 Shelving Judaism (for a time)
7:54 Keeping Second-Temple Judaism alive
11:03 Straying from our roots
15:05 Paul's Torah observance
20:08 Jesus, Torah-observant Jew
21:32 Healed by the tzitzit on his garments
23:39 Ritual purity and adding layers to the text
25:11 Jesus did not come to abolish the law
26:29 Jen's recommended reads
31:50 Pertaining to the land and Zionism

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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Reading Evangelicals: Doctrine, Culture, and Popular Christian Fiction (Daniel Silliman) Sep 24, 2021

Left Behind. This Present Darkness. Love Come Softly. The culture of faith in the West has been greatly shaped by Christian fiction. Many books that are popular in Christian circles plant flags of doctrines within their pages, providing something for Christians to buy into.

Join us this week as Daniel Silliman (author of Reading Evangelicals: How Christian Fiction Shaped a Culture and a Faith and news editor for Christianity Today) discusses how books such as Left Behind have influenced evangelicalism, and how the book market more broadly has influenced Western Christianity.

Show notes:

0:27 Fictional vs. non-fictional arguments
2:44 Christian fiction and the effect on culture
4:44 Novel belief and worldviews
8:17 How to think about evangelicals
9:54 Advocating vs. reflecting
10:47 The book market shapes evangelical culture
13:54 Creating narratives literature
16:48 Mental spaces and formative belief
21:26 Supposing
24:26 Fighting the imagination
30:18 Assume the importance of the four gospels
31:59 How Scripture teaches through narrative
32:09 Objection to mass Christian literature
34:24 Book recommendations

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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Overcoming Common ‘Mistruths‘ We‘ve Heard in Church (Brent Strawn) Sep 17, 2021

Somewhere along the line, we have inherited many "mistruths" about Scripture, as Dr. Brent Strawn calls them. These are conceptions that aren't completely false, but are misleading—and sometimes pose a greater threat to truth than complete falsehoods do. He discusses his latest book, Lies My Preacher Told Me, and how misconceptions have seeped their way into the church, affecting their views of Scripture, God, and their faith.

Brent doesn't mean to pick on pastors per se, but his book explores various ways in which mistruths have taken hold. He identifies key mistruths—such as excessive christocentrism and neglect of or aversion to the Old Testament—in the church and suggests how we might overcome them.

Show notes:

0:26 Lies My Preacher Told Me
2:44 Dru Johnson, children's pastor
4:21 The formative years
6:05 Examples of the lies
7:55 The Jesus question
12:20 Preaching is not King of the Hill
15:21 The conceptual world of the biblical authors
19:20 Constructing views of canon
20:50 Openness to different views
22:49 Stories
23:57 Poetic qualities
27:42 Dispositions toward God's means of revelation

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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Narrative of Place: Why Historical and Geographical Context Matters (Cyndi Parker) Sep 16, 2021

In seminary, Dr. Cyndi Parker of Narrative of Place became frustrated with the lack of focus on understanding the lived experience of ancient people in the Bible. She decided to go to Israel for a full year to understand the physical context of the biblical world—to experience the seasons, to see when the grass grows, to feel the hot Middle Eastern sun, to set foot on the soil.

Sitting and reading is so different from putting your feet on the ground in Israel. Join us this week as Cyndi shares about maps, the Middle East, and the importance of place for the student of Scripture.

Show notes:

0:00 Cyndi shares about desiring deeper, tangible, real-world experiences
3:55 Archeological digs
5:21 Seminary, self-diagnosis, and the desire for Scripture
8:34 Entering an Asian context
12:07 The power of places
16:51 "Israel-Overwhelming Symptom"
19:52 Narrative at the forefront of Scripture
24:21 Engaging with the land from wherever you are
29:38 What pushed Cyndi into the theology of place

Show notes by Dominique LaCroix

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God Wears a Robe? Reading the Psalms as Poetry (Chip Hardy and Matt Mullins) Sep 03, 2021

Why is the Book of Psalms important? How does reading the psalms as poetry help us to understand them? In this conversation, Dru Johnson talks with Chip Hardy and Matt Mullins about psalm 93 and the importance of the structure, metaphors, and wording of the psalms. They warn against reducing the poetry to a fluffy expression of an internal state (if that were all poetry is, it wouldn't be worth reading).

The structure of the words in the Book of Psalms is integral to their meaning. The rhythm and pace of the language can conjure certain images and attitudes. In psalm 93, the language crescendos to suggest a sense of God's overwhelming power and majesty. Chip and Matt guide listeners carefully through this psalm and offer their advice on studying this book for life and ministry.

Show notes:

0:00 Psalm 93
5:30 The psalms as poetry
7:55 The structure of the words
16:30 The Lord provides surety
20:35 How does holiness fit in?
25:57 There really is a God who is in control
32:49 How to use the poetry for ministry

Show notes by Serena Tuomi.

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Proverbs 31 Isn't a Future-Wife Checklist (Dominick Hernandez) Aug 20, 2021

Many Christians have extolled the “Proverbs 31 woman,” but that proverb must be read in the context of the others, or we might miss what it is really about. Dr. Dominick Hernandez says people cannot skip the poetic sections of the Bible and still claim to value Scripture.

In this conversation, Dr. Hernandez and Dru Johnson dive into the book of Proverbs. They discuss the structure of the book, why we should read it, how we should read it, and the significance of its poetic form.

Show notes:

0:00 Proverbs 31—a poem
3:21 An acrostic poem
8:43 The status of a woman
10:30 The structure of Proverbs
19:28 Hebraic poetry
25:18 Why read the Proverbs?
29:23 Do people respect poetry?
33:27 Why are there no Proverbs for girls?

Show notes by Serena Tuomi.

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Biblical Artist Series: Seeing Differently through Art (Steve Prince) Aug 13, 2021

Steve Prince knew he wanted to be an artist since he was five years old. Art can be a powerful way to worship, and being a maker of things allows us to reflect God the Creator. For Prince, being a Christian and an artist go hand and hand—he sees his artwork as a calling. In this episode, Dru Johnson talks to Steve about his life as a Christian artist, the influence of his Catholic upbringing in New Orleans, how he communicates through art, and how Scripture and art relate. They discuss a piece of Prince’s art.

Show notes:

0:00 Being a Christian and an artist
6:43 Church background informing art
15:50 Using art to wrestle with Scripture
23:12 “Genesis: In the Beginning”
34:30 Should Christians make monuments of humans?
43:30 The Bible is alive

Show notes by Serena Tuomi.

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If Christians Read Scripture Like Jews Do, Continued (Ari Lamm) Aug 06, 2021

Rabbi Dr. Ari Lamm returns to continue discussing the fascinating and fruitful ways that Jews approach studying Scripture.

Dr. Lamm's Orthodox Jewish upbringing taught him to embrace the view of the Hebrew Bible as layered, complex, and challenging—for, the very idea of God suggests that He has complex and layered ideas to communicate with His creation. Dr. Lamm encourages Christians to be similarly comfortable with questioning biblical texts on a deeper level.

Don’t forget to check out Dr. Lamm’s podcast Good Faith Effort.

Show notes:

0:00 Determining a biblical perspective on a topic the Bible doesn't directly address
9:00 How the Bible is meant to be studied (if we're taking it seriously)
22:50 Explaining the harmony in heaven and the discord on earth
32:31 When Jesus reaffirmed the Jewish tradition of oral Torah
37:58 Christian political philosophers who relied on Jewish wisdom

Show notes by Celina Durgin

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Ancient Jewish Pilgrims and Sacrificial BBQ (Jeffrey Garcia) Jul 30, 2021

When you hear the word "pilgrim," your first thought might be of the pilgrims who arrived in Plymouth Harbor in 1620, or of English medieval pilgrims. You might be less familiar with the ancient Jewish pilgrims who journeyed to the temple in Jerusalem. CHT fellow Dr. Jeffrey P. Garcia joins Dr. Dru Johnson to discuss this overlooked practice that fills in some historical context of the first-century biblical world.

Show notes:

0:00 Overlooked Jewish pilgrimage, and sacrificial barbeque?
8:05 The historical practice and purpose of Jewish pilgrimage in the first century
14:07 The dangers of the pilgrimages
16:40 Galilean and Judean pilgrimage to the temple in Jerusalem
19:39 The friends who pilgrims made along the way
21:50 The Essenes' disagreements related to pilgrimage
27:43 Test case: Does John the Baptist create a pilgrimage?

Show notes by Celina Durgin.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Yes, You Can Learn Biblical Hebrew—and Why You Should! (Aleph with Beth) Jul 16, 2021

Due to a technical issue, Dru's audio is of lower quality than usual.

There are many factors that hinder people from learning biblical Hebrew––cost, lack of resources, and the belief that Hebrew is only for the “spiritually elite.” But Beth and Andrew Case believe learning Hebrew is for everyone and want to make learning the language the new normal in Christian discipleship. The Cases have tools to make the biblical language available for free to everyone in the world. In this conversation, the Cases chat with Dru Johnson all about the Hebrew language, their special pedagogy, and their Youtube Channel Aleph with Beth where they teach the language of the Hebrew Bible, free to everyone.

Show notes:

0:00 Is learning Hebrew for everyone?
6:50 Learning Hebrew is doable
14:50 Hebrew can help people understand Scripture
18:40 The Case’s history with Hebrew
24:04 Why they speak the name of God
28:18 Why the Cases only speak Hebrew in videos
36:30 How they assess if their methods are working
40:00 What the Cases have learned

Show notes by Serena Tuomi.

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Christians Shouldn't Be Stuck in the Present (David Moore) Jul 09, 2021

David Moore believes the cultural moment in the United States has never before displayed such a dangerous combination of ignorance and arrogance as it does now. Most people have limited knowledge about few things, but the glut of information makes them feel like they are an expert on many issues. Most people get their news primarily from social media and their favorite news channel. We live in echo chambers partly because we cannot handle our beliefs being challenged. It is no wonder there is so much division.

David Moore and Dru Johnson chat about how history frees and forms Christians. Moore’s new book Stuck in the Present exists to teach Christians to be lifelong learners of history. Moore promotes the wisdom of understanding the bigger picture of history and befriending conversation starters who challenge you and your ideas. These habits also better prepare people to study Scripture productively.

Show notes:

0:00 Stuck in the Present
4:37 Stuck in ideology
11:23 Progress of doctrine in America
17:09 How we think about history today
21:40 Where is America in history education today?
27:35 The inductive Bible study method
33:55 A fresh Bible study method

Check out Stuck in the Present, by David Moore.

Show notes by Serena Tuomi.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Can You Understand Scripture without Background Knowledge? Jul 02, 2021

The moment you dip your toe into the world of serious biblical interpretation, you might feel overwhelmed by all the literary techniques, historical-cultural context, linguistic nuances, and extra-Biblical references that could affect how you understand Scripture. The average person might begin to doubt whether they can ever just open their Bible and start reading.

CHT researcher Amy Gabriel talks with Dru about this concern. They discuss the role of all this "background knowledge" in helping us understand Scripture, and how we can approach the text even without knowing Hebrew or Greco-Roman philosophy.

Plus, learn why we should all be the Proverbs 31 woman.

Show notes:

0:00 The debate: How much do you have to know about the biblical world to understand Scripture?
4:18 Does everyone have to be a scholar of Hebrew and the ancient Near East to grasp Hebraic thought?
18:20 The uniqueness of the Bible in its own time
19:42 The primary sourcebook of the New Testament authors
33:45 Should Scripture be easy to interpret? Is there one right interpretation?
43:08 "Real talk" about pastors and sermons

Show notes by Celina Durgin.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast may be found here: hebraicthought.org/credits

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The 'New Christian Zionism' Isn't Dispensationalist (Gerry McDermott) Jun 25, 2021

What is the biblical relationship between Christians and the Jewish community? Dr. Gerry McDermott wades through the tough topics of supersessionism, dispensationalism, and Zionism. Throughout history, beliefs about God's attitude toward the Jewish community have shaped Christians' treatment of Jewish people. Hence, Christian positions on supersessionism and dispensationalism are not merely academic disputes; they can bear on Jewish people's lives and well-being. They also bear on our understanding of biblical covenant, continuity between the Old and New Testaments, and salvation.

Dr. McDermott discusses what he believes to be the biblical view, which he calls the "new Christian Zionism." He explains why he retained the contentious term "Zionism," and why this view is distinctive.

Show notes:

0:00 Detangling the new Christian Zionism, dispensationalism, and supersessionism

7:55 Anglican and interdenominational support for Christian zionism

11:02 Why Gerry retains the term "Zionism"

17:13 Wait, are you saying that Jews are Christians, too?

25:24 Hopes for the relationship between the American church and the Jewish community and the state of Israel

Check out Dr. McDermott's related book, The New Christian Zionism: Fresh Perspectives on Israel and the Land.

Show notes by Celina Durgin

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Is God Perfect? Does That Matter? [Revisited] (Peter Leithart) Jun 18, 2021

Note: This episode was originally published February 25, 2020. ICYMI, please enjoy this lecture hosted by the Center for Hebraic Thought on February 15, 2020.

The Christian tradition describes God as “perfect”—but how the Bible describes this perfection might surprise us. When we think of God, we often start by asking, “What is God?” This is the approach of the Westminster Catechism as well as many philosophers. This seemingly common-sense approach, however, is strange at a second glance—after all, we wouldn’t typically ask, “What is your spouse?” or “What is Steve?” In this lecture, Dr. Peter Leithart argues for a different approach: asking, “Who is God?”

To understand God’s nature (including His perfection), we must consider how Scripture reasons. Often, the biblical authors appeal to poetry, imagery, story, and history to define God. Dr. Leithart argues that these literary forms—far from being irrational or anti-philosophical—are rigorously intellectual and potent forms of knowing a God who is personal, transcendent, and yes, perfect.

This episode is a recording of the evening lecture for our February 14-15 workshop with the Rev. Dr. Peter Leithart of the Theopolis Institute.

Show notes:

0:00 Introduction by Dr. Dru Johnson
2:08 “What is God?”
13:59 The intellectual rigor of the Bible
22:04 How the Bible uses poetry and imagery to describe God’s nature
28:13 Anthropomorphic or theomorphic?
33:00 God defined by story and history
41:52 Conclusion

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Lament, Moral Injury, and the Dark Parts of Scripture (Dr. Jill Firth) Jun 11, 2021

"Moral injury" has been associated with groups like wounded soldiers and sexually abused women, but it can also affect those who have simply learned about something incredibly painful or violent, whether it be in the media or in Scripture. Dr. Jill Firth has a PhD in the psalms of lament and a particular interest in suffering. In this episode, Dru Johnson and Dr. Firth discuss the issue of moral injury and its relation to the Bible.

Throughout the conversation, Dr. Firth references the prophet Jeremiah and the lament psalms to address this heavy topic. We shouldn't shy way from studying the dark and violent parts of Scripture. These can help foster our imagination for the horrific parts of life, so that we can better understand others' experiences of suffering and our own.

People often seek easy answers or comforting verses in the Bible when they are struggling, for similar reasons that they turn to food, Netflix, or friends. But what we really need is to trust God with our pain and give Him a chance to be our Living Water—even if that means we must experience the pain and not quickly numb or resolve it.

Want to learn more? You can check out Dr. Firth's "Journey Through the Psalms" project.

Show notes:

0:00 The field of moral injury
6:55 Why are people uncomfortable with lament in Scripture?
13:34 Cultivating your imagination for suffering
17:05 Responding to real stories of real people
21:00 The length of the moral injury metaphor
25:44 Needing to know God is with us
30:32 Missing the element of lament in worship

Show notes by Serena Tuomi.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Until All the Psalms Are Sung Again (Poor Bishop Hooper) Jun 04, 2021

We all need God’s word, and we need it desperately––this is why Jesse and Leah Roberts embarked on EveryPsalm.

Jesse and Leah are parents, pastors, and musicians living in Kansas City, MO. They began their EveryPsalm project on January 1, 2020, after years of talking about the idea. They explain, “EveryPsalm is a three-year long musical journey consisting of simple, meditative songs based on the psalms. Starting with Psalm 1 and ending at Psalm 150.” Each song is based on a psalm, and almost all of their lyrics are taken word-for-word from the Bible. Their goal with this project is to help their listeners interact with Scripture in new ways and to make God’s Word applicable to any circumstances people might face.

In this episode, Jesse and Leah talk with Dru Johnson about their project thus far (they're up to Psalm 75) and their goals for the rest of the songs to come. They discuss the songwriting process and how putting Scripture to music aids memorization and deeper engagement.

You can check out their Youtube channel to listen to every song of the EveryPsalm project along with their other free music. You can also check out their website for more information and to subscribe to their weekly song release.

Show notes:

0:00 How Jesse and Leah use the Psalms to write songs
6:39 How they pick their tone for each piece
10:02 What they’ve learned about the Psalms as they’ve worked through them
11:40 The role of lament
16:07 How they safely interpret each Psalm
22:10 Putting words to music
26:50 How they avoid “telling others how to feel"

Show notes by Serena Tuomi.

The music featured in this episode was used with permission from Poor Bishop Hooper. The audio clips are from "Psalm 7," "Psalm 13," "Psalm 16," and "Psalm 40."

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Listen to an Article: Recovering the Political Teachings of the Hebrew Bible May 28, 2021

Heather Cate reads "Recovering the Political Teachings of the Hebrew Bible," by Joshua Berman, published March 3, 2020.

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If Christians Read Scripture Like Jews Do (Ari Lamm) May 14, 2021

Christians who feel uneasy with tricky texts in Scripture have something to learn from Jewish Bible readers. Jews actually seek out challenges in the Bible, because they believe these are God’s invitation to develop and use wisdom.

In this episode, Dru Johnson interviews Rabbi Dr. Ari Lamm, a “historian of religion who is interested in the role of religion, religious values, and tradition in shaping the global moral discourse.” His Orthodox Jewish upbringing taught him to embrace the view of the Hebrew Bible as layered, complex, and challenging—for, the very idea of God suggests that He has complex and layered ideas to communicate with His creation. Dr. Lamm encourages Christians to be similarly comfortable with questioning biblical stories on a deeper level.

Don’t forget to check out Dr. Lamm’s podcast Good Faith Effort, where he “speaks with thinkers, writers, artists, and faith leaders to explore how the Bible continues to inform our lives today, from politics to psychology to pop culture, bringing Americans of different traditions and persuasions closer together as so much else threatens to pull us apart.”

Show notes:

5:56 Humans can partner with God to extend the work of creation.
7:33 Hermeneutic of suspicion: Why doesn’t Joseph contact his father?
15:38 Is it typical for Jewish interpretation to ask questions that are constrained to the text?
17:35 The rabbis’ legends.
22:35 What made Joseph resilient?
26:04 The permission to ask questions of Scripture
29:32 Using one character to interpret another: Why does God choose Abraham?

Show notes by Serena Tuomi

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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The Church's Alarming Neglect of the Old Testament (Brent Strawn) Apr 30, 2021

Is the church gradually abandoning the Old Testament?

Surveys of Americans from all walks of life and church backgrounds show that we have grown less and less literate in the Hebrew Scriptures. This causes a host of problems, such as mistaken preconceptions of the text or belief that the Old Testament is outdated or unnecessary. Especially in a culture so far removed from the original world of the text, how can we learn to read the Bible empathetically and humbly?

In this episode, Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Brent Strawn, Professor of Old Testament and Law at Duke Divinity School. They discuss the church's widespread neglect of the Old Testament, and how to overcome the resulting problems. We should read the entire New Testament as situated within the conceptual world of the Old. They conclude with remarks about how the texts and art of other ancient Near Eastern cultures can help us understand Scripture.

Show notes:

0:00 The difficulties of reading the Hebrew Bible as modern people
3:54 Approaching texts with humility
7:17 Brent's book The Old Testament is Dying
11:14 Boosting Bible literacy
17:18 Using the Old Testament well
25:48 Avoiding "word pollution"
29:00 Reading the New Testament through the Old Testament
34:33 Ancient Near Eastern views of the divine
39:57 Art and iconography as a window into the text

Brent's book The Old Testament is Dying: A Diagnosis and Recommended Treatment

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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On Whether There Is Sacred Music (Delvyn Case) Apr 23, 2021

Why do we think of some music as sacred music and some music as secular? Is it merely a lyrical or a historical distinction, or is there something about the style and genre that makes certain songs feel "spiritual"? Is the music of the ancient Hebrews more or less sacred than that of a modern Catholic mass or an evangelical megachurch? We are likely to distinguish between these different eras and genres to help categorize them as sacred or not; however, we should be more willing to challenge this distinction.

In this episode, Dru Johnson interviews Delvyn Case, an accomplished composer, scholar, and performer, about the way Christians view music. As they break down the boundaries between secular and sacred music, they discuss why certain types of music feel more spiritual (such as Gospel or hymns) than others. They talk about bad worship music and how it influences our emotions to teach us thin, wobbly theology. They then discuss religious imagery, especially the figure of Christ, in popular music. Is Jesus more like a punk rocker, a hippie, or a communist? Music has the power to educate us and draw us nearer to God; however, it also has the power to mold our emotions and thoughts in sneaky, subconscious ways. If we learn to listen more closely, we can not only grow shrewder in our understanding of its power, but also discover its excellencies and faults.

Show notes:

0:00 "Sacred music" versus "secular music"
3:56 Gospel music as transcendent
9:30 The role of music in church
14:12 Bad worship music
19:09 Spiritual and educational music
22:35 Popular music using church motifs
28:18 The view of Jesus in pop music
34:33 How to critically engage music

Read Delvyn's discussion of Jesus in pop music.

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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How to Enjoy Reading the Bible (Matthew Mullins) Apr 16, 2021

Many of us approach Scripture with an "intellectualist" lens: we're seeking clear ideas with straightforward moral application for our lives. Often we do so unconsciously, because of our church background or the way we were first introduced to the Bible. This way of reading Scripture, while not entirely bad, disassociates us from the text. We don't read novels or poems like this, so why would we apply this lens to some of the greatest literary works of all time?

In this episode, Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Matthew Mullins, Associate Professor of English and History of Ideas at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, about learning to love the Bible. Matthew Mullins wants to help us overcome our "Cartesian eyes" and read Scripture with our whole selves: emotion, rationality, and activity. They discuss Matthew's book, Enjoying the Bible: Literary Approaches to Loving the Scriptures, and how to read the Bible as literature instead of as a textbook. As we pursue more engaged reading of Scripture, we can understand the cares and concerns of the biblical authors, as well as transform the way we think and live.

Show notes:

0:00 Reading the Bible as literature
2:05 Avoiding an information-centric perspective of Scripture
6:25 Isolating reading and learning from emotion
13:32 Learning to love the Bible
17:24 Delighting in biblical wisdom
21:15 Returning to the text to with new eyes
24:00 "Reading at whim"

Matthew Mullins's talk: “You Can’t Understand the Bible If You Don’t Love Poetry”

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Behind the Scenes: CHT Staff Tells All! (Dru, Amy, Celina) Apr 09, 2021

Sometimes it's good to take a step back—so this week, the Center for Hebraic Thought staff switched things up. Instead of interviewing a scholar, Dru Johnson (CHT director), Amy Gabriel (CHT research associate), and Celina Durgin (CHT administrative director) chatted about the evolving mission and audience of the CHT, Bible literacy and Bible fluency, good and bad Bible-reading habits—in short, a smorgasbord of topics that lie at the heart of our organization.

Show notes:

00:30 The evolving mission of the Center for Hebraic Thought
02:33 Shifting the audience of the CHT
05:50 What is Hebraic thought, again?
10:38 How—and how not—to read the Bible
16:25 The origin and purpose of The Biblical Mind
19:00 Bible literacy vs. Bible fluency
34:41 What motivates people to read the Bible?
38:30 The goal of the CHT and TBM
43:55 Scripture's metaphors for itself

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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The Biblical Authors vs. Greek Philosophy (Joseph Dodson) Apr 02, 2021

The Bible is full of references to other texts, containing a diverse range of cultural forces and ideas. The biblical authors engaged with Egyptian mythology, Babylonian theology, and Hellenistic philosophy with a discerning eye for what to keep, what to reject, and what to turn on its head.

In this episode, Dr. Joseph Dodson, Associate Professor of New Testament at Denver Seminary, joins Dru Johnson to discuss the interaction between Stoicism and Scripture. He describes the philosophical context within which the apostles wrote, including the Stoicism that was popular at the time. Then, they discuss how authors such as Paul and John appropriated (and sometimes contradicted) Stoic beliefs to articulate the gospel. They also talk about the diverse nature of the Hebraic intellectual world, the education of the apostles, and why we should read the Apocrypha.

Show notes:

0:00 The context of Scripture
2:42 Defining Stoicism
7:28 Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle
12:01 Blending Judaism with Hellenistic philosophy
20:05 The Hebraic intellectual world
24:45 John's integration of philosophy
28:30 Book recommendations on the context of the New Testament

A recommended book edited by Joseph Dodson: Paul and the Giants of Philosophy: Reading the Apostle in Greco-Roman Context

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Understanding Slavery in the Old Testament—and Today (Myrto Theocharous) Mar 26, 2021

Critics of Christianity, and even believers, point to the instances of slavery in the Old Testament as evidence of a cruel or careless God. However, a view of the ancient systems of slavery and the Torah's treatment of the oppressed reveals a very different picture. Far from being opposed to human dignity, the Hebrew Bible strives to humanize everyone, including those at the margins of society.

In this episode, Dr. Myrto Theocharous and Dr. Dru Johnson discuss slavery and care for the oppressed in the Hebrew Bible. They note how the Torah insists on protection and dignity for slaves to prevent exploitation. They identify how slavery in the Old Testament differs from more recent versions and how we should understand our own cultural experiences when approaching the text. From there, we can begin to understand other related issues, such as how Christians should respond to systems of human trafficking and how Deuteronomy teaches people to care for the vulnerable even if we haven't experienced their circumstances ourselves.

Show notes:

0:00 A God against slavery
4:02 Protections and humanization for slaves in the Torah
7:27 Using the metaphor of slavery today
10:55 Human trafficking and caring for the vulnerable
16:26 Learning care for the oppressed without experiencing oppression
21:08 A view of the American evangelical church

Learn more about Dr. Theocharous.

Show notes by Micah Long.

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You Mean Jesus Isn't Literally a Vine? (Beth Stovell) Mar 12, 2021

What does it mean to say that Jesus is the vine? Does He have roots or produce grapes? What is the connection between giving birth and fighting a war? Why does the Bible refer to God's nose as being long?

In this episode, Dr. Beth Stovell talks to Dr. Dru Johnson about the complex world of metaphor in the biblical texts. Rather than "just the facts," metaphors give us a way of thinking that involves the whole being, including one's mind, emotions, body, and imagination. Scripture uses this poetic language not to be fancy or impressionistic, but because it conveys a richer world of meaning than "simple" or "technical" language. They also discuss some of the weirdest metaphors in Scripture, how scientists use metaphorical language construction to classify reality, and how to demystify the language of Scripture.

They end with remarks on how we can access the metaphorical imagination of the biblical texts by engaging with the various experiences of the members of our communities.

Show notes:

0:00 The truth of metaphors
3:38 Why Scripture uses metaphors
11:13 Factual versus poetic language
13:26 Weird metaphors in Scripture
17:08 Scientific taxonomies
25:20 The construction of language in the ancient world
30:47 Accessing the meaning of the biblical texts

Learn more about Dr. Beth Stovell and her work.

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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American Christians' Peculiar View of Inerrancy—and Other Oddities (Mike Bird) Mar 05, 2021

There is a view of biblical inerrancy that is actually particular to some American Christians—and peculiar to outsiders. Dr. Michael Bird examines this and other peculiarities of some American Christianity in light of Scripture and other traditions.

In this episode, Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Bird about American theology and the different meanings of biblical inerrancy. They discuss the distinction between questioning the authority of the Bible and questioning a particular tradition's interpretation or doctrine. They also talk about the importance of the Hebrew Bible and Dr. Bird's work with N.T. Wright.

Show notes:

0:00 America's concern with biblical inerrancy
3:15 What does it mean to say that the Bible is true?
9:56 Interpretative issues versus authoritative issues
13:07 American eschatology
17:03 Ignorance of the Hebrew Bible
25:45 N.T. Wright
27:45 American politics and Christian obligation

Learn more about Mike Bird and his work.

Dr. Bird's book with N.T. Wright: The New Testament in Its World: An Introduction to the History, Literature, and Theology of the First Christians

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Listen to an Article: Neither Work nor Leisure Provides 'Our Daily Bread' Mar 03, 2021

Heather Cate reads "Neither Work nor Leisure Provides 'Our Daily Bread,'" by Dru Johnson, published July 16, 2020.

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Ancient Israelite Government in Modern Republics (Kyle Swan) Feb 26, 2021

The foundations of our modern liberal democracies are found in the ideas of Enlightenment-era political philosophers such as Hobbes, Locke, Hume, and Rousseau. At first glance, these philosophers seem like they couldn't be more different from the premodern Hebrews. What does social contract theory and the idea of the consent of the governed have to do with the story of God and His people in the Torah?

In this episode, Dr. Kyle Swan talks with Dru Johnson about the similarities between ancient Israel and republican forms of government. They begin by examining the narrative at Sinai, where a loving God establishes an agreement with the Hebrew people. The law given to the Israelites was not merely a series of divine decrees that people had to obey; their obligation to follow the law emerges from their commitment to follow it. They then discuss the difference between a biblical covenant and the "founding myths" of social contract theory, and consider how consent of the governed can continue through multiple generations. In the end, we can see deep similarities between the way a polity flourishes and the way God establishes a relationship with His people.

Show notes:

0:00 The authority of God
2:53 Commitment and obligation in political philosophy
6:33 The Israelite covenant with God
10:58 How Dr. Swan got started in biblical political philosophy
14:10 Early biblical laws and covenants
17:10 Social contract theory and consent
24:40 Covenant renewal
29:05 Consent of the governed through generations
34:12 The Hebrew Scriptures as a source for our political philosophy

Learn more about Dr. Kyle Swan and his work.

Kyle Swan's journal article on the political philosophy of the ancient Hebrews: "The Hebrew Republic? Divine Authority and Self-Governance"

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Don't Drop the Body of Christ (Janelle Peters) Feb 19, 2021

Can we use Mountain Dew and Doritos for communion, or must the elements be bread and wine? Communion is one of the most prominent Christian rituals. Although celebrated differently by different traditions, from sharing loaves of bread and a common cup to distributing oyster crackers and little plastic cups of grape juice, the practice is meant to remind us of and transform us into the body of Christ. We might wonder what the earliest Christians did to celebrate communion, and what the boundaries are within which we might improvise this ritual in various times and places.

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson talks to Dr. Janelle Peters, author of the forthcoming Paul and the Citizen Body, about communion, Paul's intellectual influences, and Bible literacy. They examine the traditions associated with communion and its connection to the rituals of the ancient Hebrews. From there, they consider Paul's usage of the Torah in his letters and his appropriation of Greco-Roman literary tropes and ideas. They conclude with a discussion of Paul's views on rituals and practices such as communion and wearing head coverings, and the state of Bible literacy in the rising generations.

Show notes:

0:00 What elements can we use for the blood and body of Christ?
4:56 Participating in the body of Christ
7:41 Communion and Israelite rituals
11:40 Paul, 1 Clement, and the Hebrew Bible
14:38 How Paul adapts the Torah into the Greco-Roman world
18:35 Embodying the words of Jesus in communion
25:42 Head coverings in church
29:14 Teaching biblical literacy

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Why We Should Still Keep the Sabbath (Mark Scarlata) Feb 12, 2021

American Christians often make two key mistakes when approaching the idea of sabbath in the Hebrew Bible / Old Testament. First, we assume that the command has been made irrelevant by the New Covenant. Second, we "spiritualize" the idea of sabbath and downplay the importance of formative rituals for our bodies, not just our souls. However, a closer investigation of sabbath in Scripture reveals its importance, not only as a command of God but as a necessary counterweight to our digitally saturated and busy lives.

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Mark Scarlata about sabbath as a gift for all creation. Dr. Scarlata is a Tutor and Lecturer in Old Testament Studies at Saint Mellitus College in London, an Anglican priest, and the author of the recent book Sabbath Rest: The Beauty of God's Rhythm for a Digital Age. They discuss rest as it is portrayed in Scripture, from Genesis's creation narrative to God's provision in Exodus. Dr. Scarlata explains how to celebrate the sabbath well, in a way that promotes community and present-ness. We can truly enjoy a break from work and participate in the great rest that God offers His people.

Show notes:

0:00 Supersessionism and the sabbath
2:43 Sabbath in the Hebrew Bible
8:34 A gift for all creation
15:07 The weirdness of rest
23:06 The importance of our bodies and rituals
26:49 When we should celebrate the sabbath
34:38 Resting successfully

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Reading Exodus: When Does a Multitude Become a People? (Leon Kass) Feb 05, 2021

How should we read the book of Exodus?

Dr. Leon R. Kass discusses his answer to this question from his recent book, Founding God's Nation: Reading Exodus. Dr. Kass is the Professor Emeritus in the Committee on Social Thought and the College at the University of Chicago, and formerly served as the Chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics under George W. Bush. He has published a host of works in medicine, bioethics, and most recently, biblical studies.

Dr. Kass believes that reading Exodus should start with humility and curiosity—perhaps the author of Exodus knows something we don't. From there, we can begin to see Exodus for what it is: a book that not only recounts the story of Israel, but also reveals themes and principles that apply to any person or nation. Specifically, he describes the difference between a multitude and a people, what Exodus has to say about technology, and why God chose a lowly slave people to be His covenantal servants.

Show notes:

0:00 Reading with open eyes
4:20 Learning from the great texts
6:55 Genesis, Exodus, technology, and bioethics
13:28 The three things a people needs
19:50 The covenantal foundation of Israel
24:49 Why God started with a lowly people
30:10 Slavery in ancient Israel
35:19 Epistemology in Exodus

Learn more about Dr. Kass and his work.

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Listen to This before Writing That Book (Michael Thomson) Jan 29, 2021

Many first-time authors, whether accomplished academics or passionate amateurs, underestimate the time and revision involved in working with a book publisher. In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Michael Thomson, Acquisitions Editor at Wipf and Stock Publishers, which publishes books on theology and biblical studies, among other topics. They discuss the joys and struggles of the writing, editing, and publishing process.

Authors need to identify what kind of book they're writing and who their audience is. They need to learn when to use more or fewer stories and examples. And good authors listen to the people around them for critical feedback. After a publisher accepts the manuscript, preparing the book for publication can take around a year.

Michael also shares the difficulties of being an editor. Often, editing requires a careful balance between preserving the author's original work (and feelings) and developing the book's marketability. He reveals some of the secrets of book publishing, such as whether authors get to pick their own titles and covers (they don't) or how much money they make (not that much). However, for those who are ready and willing, the process can be rewarding and beneficial.

Show notes:

0:00 The difficulty of writing books
5:39 Unexpectedly good writing
8:15 Figuring out what kind of book you're writing
12:55 Transitioning from academic to popular writing
17:44 Writing as a community enterprise
24:10 The subtle art of editing
28:51 Why authors don't pick titles and covers
33:16 Authors don't get paid that much

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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But Really, What's Up with Abraham Almost Sacrificing Isaac? (Aaron Koller) Jan 22, 2021

The story of God's command to Abraham to sacrifice Isaac (also known as the Akedah) in Genesis 22 is one of the most challenging passages in Scripture. Only 19 verses long, it gives few details and even fewer explanations. Questions that we might naturally ask about this passage are not always the questions the author actually answers.

Dr. Aaron Koller, Professor of Near Eastern and Jewish Studies at Yeshiva University, tackles this story in his recent book Unbinding Isaac. In this episode, he walks Dr. Dru Johnson through a close reading of the text and some of its historical context, asking how it might be viewed in the ancient Near East, medieval Jewish thought, and following the Holocaust. Additionally, he discusses Kierkegaard's interpretation of the story and why he finds its monopoly on modern Jewish thought to be harmful. He concludes by presenting his own interpretation of the story, continuing the tradition of wrestling with this text.

Show notes:

0:00 The sacrifice of Isaac
5:17 Child sacrifice in the ancient Near East
9:33 A close reading of the Akedah
15:53 The binding of Isaac
20:52 Jewish martyrdom
28:00 Kierkegaard, ethics, and faith
34:06 The influence of the Holocaust on interpreting the story
36:36 The value of children

Learn more about Dr. Aaron Koller and his work.

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found here: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Repentance as a Group Activity (David Lambert) Jan 15, 2021

Biblical repentance isn't just about having a contrite heart (i.e., "feeling bad"). That doesn't mean contrition isn't important! But it does mean that we miss the point of repentance if we focus on contrition to the exclusion of proactive reconciliation.

In this episode, Dr. David Lambert explores the nature of true repentance in the Bible. Dr. Lambert is an Associate Professor in the Department of Biblical Studies at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, and specializes in philology and the history of biblical interpretation. He discusses how biblical repentance combines contrition with justice-working that involves the entire political society.

Show notes:

0:00 Reading the Bible like an ancient Israelite
3:40 Similarities between Jewish and Christian readings of Scripture
9:26 Distinguishing terms such as "Jewish," "Israelite," and "Judaism"
16:20 Modern notions of repentance and religion as individual and internal
22:04 Biblical repentance as communal
26:10 Mercy, justice, prayer, and caring for the oppressed

Dr. Lambert's most recent book: How Repentance Became Biblical: Judaism, Christianity, and the Interpretation of Scripture

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits

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Rethinking 'Quiet Time' with Scripture (Jen Wilkin) Jan 08, 2021

Why do many Christians elevate the practice of "quiet time": isolated, often hurried and brief daily Bible-reading? Jen Wilkin—author, speaker, and leader of many Bible studies—challenges this practice. She believes that, rather than instilling deep Bible literacy, the typical "quiet time" encourages shallow reading and pursuit of instant gratification in the form of cheap satisfaction or vague encouragement at the expense of comprehension.

Reading any book this way would not yield a thorough grasp of its themes, narrative, characters, and worldview, Jen says, so why read the Bible this way? While affirming its inerrancy, Jen cautions against treating Scripture like a magic 8-ball. The practice of quiet time is indeed formative, but not necessarily for the better. She proposes an alternative method of Bible study involving, among other things, extended (if not daily) reading and regular input from other careful Scripture-readers.

Show notes:

0:25 The problem with "quiet time"
8:06 English literature and magic 8-balls
18:56 Setting low expectations for Bible literacy in the church
23:17 The effectiveness of raising the bar
31:21 Why Jen Wilkin focuses on an audience of women

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Listen to an Article: Scott Harrower on Coping with Trauma through Scripture Jan 06, 2021

Heather Cate reads "Living Well and Wisely with God and His People While Coping with Trauma," by Scott Harrower, published July 10, 2020.

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Excavating the Biblical World (Cynthia Shafer-Elliott) Jan 01, 2021

A surefire way to make a biblical scholar groan is to use the phrase "back in Bible times." Of course, there is no "Bible times"; the events and writing of the Bible span millennia of concrete, dynamic history. Dr. Cynthia Shafer-Elliott, a professor at William Jessup University and an experienced field archeologist, talks with Dru about the households and daily life of ancient people in Iron Age Israel, specifically.

Biblical archeology can reveal everything from ancient Israelites' fingerprints, to their social and family structures, to their acquaintance with daily struggle for survival. Biblical passages that seem opaque to modern Westerners, especially passages in the Old Testament, can suddenly make sense as our understanding is enriched with knowledge of the authors' historical and physical contexts.

Here are some things we can learn from the permanent features, artifacts, and structures of ancient Israelite households.

Show notes:

0:25 How biblical archeology illuminates the biblical world and hence, the text
6:23 The years and significance of the Iron Age
14:23 "Household archeology" and daily life in the Iron Age
24:10 Permanent features of the ancient house, e.g., grinding installations and ovens
28:02 "Spatial analysis" and the placement of artifacts in the house
31:19 Typical household members and the betʾav vs. contemporary individualism
41:23 The dependence of household members on everyone's participation in the household for survival
45:12 The land flowing with milk and honey?

Music credits: hebraicthought.org/credits

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Christmas Special: Esau McCaulley on Reading While Black (OnScript) Dec 25, 2020

This episode is reproduced from a November interview on the OnScript podcast, courtesy of OnScript.

Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Esau McCaulley about his award-winning book Reading While Black: African-American Interpretation as an Exercise in Hope. They discuss listening to minority, oppressed, and specifically Black voices as necessary to reading Scripture well. Without critically engaging these various voices, we run the risk of reinforcing cultural biases and blind spots.

Dr. McCaulley also describes the unique gap he is trying to fill in biblical scholarship, as he navigates between both Black and white evangelical and progressive voices. Dr. McCaulley hopes to provide a biblical scholarship that is both faithful to orthodox Christianity and to the veracity of Scripture, while not neglecting justice. Stay tuned at the end for a speed round!

0:00 Introduction to OnScript and Esau McCaulley
2:13 Defining the term "Black"
6:57 Dr. McCaulley's time at the University of St. Andrews
12:42 Introducing Reading While Black
17:48 The problems with the phrase "runaway slave"
19:00 Holding to orthodoxy while calling for justice
24:23 Why we can't read Scripture alone
29:40 How to listen to Black voices
35:14 Dealing with slavery in the Bible
42:14 Speed Round!
56:40 The greatest book in biblical studies in the last fifty years
1:02:16 Failing to discuss oppression in biblical studies

Learn more about Dr. McCaulley and his work.

Also mentioned: Dr. McCaulley's Sharing in the Son's Inheritance (NERDY)

Show notes by Micah Long.

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What Is Civility and How Do We Practice It? A Panel Discussion Dec 18, 2020

Note: This special episode is of lower audio quality than usual. It is a live recording of an event.

Those spending the holidays with their families may be apprehensive about conversations that veer into controversy—especially after such a fraught year.

For such a time as this, TBM podcast presents a special episode. This is a panel discussion recorded at The King's College on Friday, November 20th, entitled, "A Loyal Opposition: Civility During an Election Season." Dr. David Tubbs moderated the panel, with thoughts from Dr. Dru Johnson, Professor Alissa Wilkinson, and Dr. Anthony Bradley. They discuss what it means to practice civility in our current political climate, especially for Christians, and especially toward those with whom we disagree.

In a time of political polarization, stoked by partisan news outlets and social media bubbles, Americans need more than ever to learn to charitably discuss our ideas and perspectives with those around us. Pursuing civility requires more than just politeness; it also requires a variety of intellectual habits, including humility, respect, and curiosity. But more than anything, it requires sharing life with people of different viewpoints by welcoming them into our neighborhoods, our shared meals, and our churches. Hopefully, Christians can lead the effort to restore civil discourse.

Show notes:

0:00 Introduction to the panel
2:25 Defining civility
6:30 Historical movements that exhibit civility
11:25 Politics as a model for discourse in college
17:21 "A Loyal Opposition" in the British Parliament
19:55 Sharing meals, sharing life, and arguing well
24:18 Obstacles to civil discussion
30:35 Dealing with incivility
35:16 The connections between emotion and reason
43:29 The problem with politics as a system of meaning
46:26 Learning good civil discourse
50:49 Interacting with news media
52:50 Befriending people you disagree with

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Biblical Artist Series: Sandra Bowden Literally Makes the Bible into Art Dec 11, 2020

Sandra Bowden is a mixed-media artist with pieces displayed everywhere from small rural churches to the Vatican. A self-described "visual theologian," Sandra incorporates architecture, Scripture, Hebrew lettering, and Christian artifacts into her biblical art pieces to express the mystery of God's relationship with his creation.

Dru Johnson and Ned Bustard ask Sandra about her story as an artist, from her love of the Bible, to her seminal exhibition at a small Baptist church, to her creation of the Bowden Collections. She discusses the reasons that she includes the biblical texts in her artwork, and how she believes that the visual arts can bring the themes and stories of Scripture to life. For Sandra, God communicates with us through various means. Creation attests to His glory, His Word reveals his character, and His Son displays His love to the world. She hopes her biblical art will be another means of communicating God's truth.

Show notes:

0:00 Following the next question in art
2:58 Sandra's experience studying Hebrew
6:58 Using the biblical text in painting
12:38 The Bowden Collections
14:45 Drawing connections between biblical passages in art
18:34 Sandra's piece in the Vatican
20:25 Reflecting on the reception to Sandra's work
25:47 Incarnation, word, and art

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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How Brazilians Understand the Bible Differently (Caio Peres) Dec 04, 2020

How does our social location affect the way we read the Bible and worship? For the ancient Israelites, who lived in a subsistence-level agrarian society, the Torah, worship in the temple, daily work, and social justice were intimately intertwined. Scripture resists our urge to separate the sacred from the secular, our worship of God from our treatment of those around us.

For Caio Peres, an independent researcher and missionary, the daily realities of trauma and poverty in Brazil provide a lens through which to view Scripture's concern for social flourishing. Caio holds an MA in Theology and Religious Studies from the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam and strives not just to work for or with the impoverished in his community, but to share life with them. In this episode, he discusses the culture of ancient Israel, the motifs of sacrifice in the Torah and New Testaments, and the connection the biblical authors draw between worship in the Tabernacle and the structure of the cosmos. He concludes with thoughts on addressing trauma through living alongside people, understanding their experiences, and sharing their embodied reality via Christian rituals.

Show notes:

0:00 Ordinary life and worshipping God
3:20 The Torah's lack of a sacred/secular divide
8:18 Sacrificial motifs in the New Testament
14:00 Practicing biblical theology in Brazil
19:20 Living with people in extreme poverty in Brazil
22:47 How Christians should address trauma
26:41 Our social location and how we read the Bible

Articles Caio has written for The Biblical Mind:

Family Conflicts and the Restoration of the Cosmos, Part I: Morality amid Oppression and Humility (available in Portuguese)

Family Conflicts and the Restoration of the Cosmos, Part II: Kingship and Servanthood within the Elected Family (available in Portuguese)

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Biblical Artist Series: Why John Hendrix Draws in Church Nov 20, 2020

Could drawing in church actually be a good thing? John Hendrix thinks so. John is a New York Times bestselling author, widely published illustrator, and Professor of Art at the Sam Fox School of Art and Design at Washington University in St. Louis. For John, drawing is far from a distraction in church; it's a way of sharpening his concentration, enlivening new concepts, and worshiping his Creator.

In this episode, John draws from his experience as a committed Christian and an illustrator. Interviewed by Dr. Dru Johnson and Ned Bustard, a previous guest in the Biblical Artist podcast series, John explores his sketchbook of church sermons, differentiates between font and typeface, and introduces us to the idea of gestalt. Along the way, he shares why he eschews the title of "artist" and why he prefers to be called an illustrator or designer. He gives advice to budding professional or nonprofessional artists. As we delve into biblical thinking, we can discover how art and its powerful tools of imagery and metaphor can shape our minds to understand new truths.

Show notes:

0:00 Getting to know John Hendrix
2:03 Reading culture and creating typefaces
9:05 Discussing John's "Cain" piece (the featured image of this post)
14:02 Sketching in church
18:40 Illustration, metaphor, and Scripture
25:15 What's wrong with the title of "artist"
29:19 Advice for artists

Learn more about John Hendrix and his work.

View John's sketchbook.

Some of John's recent books:

Go and Do Likewise (forthcoming)
Miracle Man: The Story of Jesus
The Faithful Spy: Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the Plot to Kill Hitler

Show notes by Micah Long

Credits for the music used in TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Wandering in the Wilderness: COVID-19 and the Book of Numbers (Dave Beldman) Nov 13, 2020

Professors and pastors alike often hear groans when they begin to teach the book of Numbers—and who can blame them? The title makes it sound like the records of the Ancient Israelite Census Bureau. Even biblical scholars often refer to it as the "the junk room of the Pentateuch." However, upon closer study, this book reveals itself to be profound and relevant for our modern world—including our current wandering in the wilderness during the COVID-19 pandemic and a time of political frustration.

In this episode, Dr. David Beldman, Associate Professor of Religion and Theology at Redeemer University, talks with Dr. Dru Johnson about the book of Numbers and its motif of wandering in the wilderness. They discuss the book's original Hebrew name, literary elements, and tripartite structure. From there, they identify how wilderness-wandering applies to the stories and teachings of the New Testament. As we examine the ancient people of God in the wilderness, perhaps we can find guidance for navigating the challenges and tests for the world in 2020.

Show notes:

0:00 Exodus, Numbers, trauma, and distorted views of the past
3:42 COVID-19 and the book of Numbers
8:24 "Wandering in the wilderness"
11:12 The literary structure of the book of Numbers
17:33 The wilderness motif in the New Testament
22:36 Balak, Balaam, and Revelation
27:04 The people of God in the Bible and now

Learn more about Dr. Beldman and his work.

His most recent book: Deserting the King: The Book of Judges

An article he wrote for The Biblical Mind: "Biblical Culture-Making: How Sacred Order Shapes Social Order"

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used on TBM podcast can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Not a "White Man's Religion": Church History and Biblical Thought (Vince Bantu) Nov 06, 2020

Western Christians tend to emphasize Western church history and culture at the expense of the global church. Many have cursory understanding of the Greek Orthodox tradition, but know little about early Christianity in Asia and Africa. This ignorance of church history leads to more than just historical inaccuracy; it can alienate those of other nationalities and ethnicities with a false portrayal of Christianity as a European- or white-only religion.

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Vince Bantu of Fuller Seminary about global church history. They give special attention to the origins and spread of Christianity in Egypt, Nubia, and the broader African continent. Along the way, they highlight Western misunderstandings of non-Western Christology and the issue of racism in the ancient world. By expanding our perspective beyond our own historical and cultural tradition, Western Christians can improve our ability to truly preach the gospel to all nations.

Show notes:

0:00 Contextualization and interpretation of Scripture
2:10 The global nature of Christianity
4:07 The origins of African Christianity
12:32 The spread of Christianity in Nubia
15:03 The schism between the Roman and Ethiopian churches
19:06 Racism in the ancient world
22:22 Athanasius, Arianism, and the Egyptian church
25:50 The importance of the non-Western church
33:00 The "cultural elasticity" of the gospel

Learn more about Dr. Bantu and his work.

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Biblical Artist Series: Jon Collins from BibleProject Oct 30, 2020

Dr. Dru Johnson and Celina Durgin talk with Jon Collins, Co-Founder of BibleProject, about using animated videos to teach viewers how to read the Bible. BibleProject is a nonprofit animation studio with the goal of helping people become students of biblical literature through short explainer-style videos. In this episode, Jon provides a window into their creative process, from background research, to designing the images, to creating soundscapes.

Along the way, they discuss the broader role of art in helping us understand Scripture. Jon describes the difficulties of presenting a complex and difficult idea in a fun and interesting way, and how to solve these difficulties with certain artistic choices, such as a dialogue script and accurate representation of biblical characters. They also explore the "Prince of Egypt problem," how BibleProject seeks to unify the church, and even Gilmore Girls.

Show notes:

0:00 Understanding biblical themes
3:43 Researching a BibleProject video
7:09 How art can help us understand Scripture
10:47 Stylistic inspirations for BibleProject
15:18 Avoiding the "Prince of Egypt problem"
21:52 Using dialogue in explainer videos
24:57 Sound editing
27:08 The greatest contributions of BibleProject
29:38 Creating students of biblical literature

Videos mentioned in the episode:

The Wisdom Series (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Job)
The Test
Biblical Themes Series

Show notes by Micah Long.

Credits for the music used in this episode can be found at: hebraicthought.org/credits.

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Biblical Literacy for Flourishing in Faith and Work (Luke Bobo) Oct 09, 2020

Many American Christians assume an over-familiarity with the Bible. Whether because we were raised in the church, or because we think we have it all figured out, or because of sheer laziness, we rarely turn to Scripture with diligent and curious eyes, guided by a community of other Bible-readers. At the same time, we often erect barriers between our faith and work or between the state of our souls and the state of our bodies. Perhaps the two issues are connected: we see the Bible and our churches as dealing with spiritual things but tend to isolate them from our everyday lives.

Dr. Luke Bobo is an author, theologian, professor, and Director of Strategic Partnerships for an organization called Made to Flourish. His work ranges from encouraging biblical literacy among everyday churchgoers to helping pastors think holistically about the interaction between faith and work, including implications for poverty alleviation. In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Bobo about biblical interpretation and the dignity of work. Dr. Bobo wants us to do two things: first, dive deeper into Scripture, and second, figure out how the church can serve in the economic order.

Questions addressed include: How can Christians develop an asset-based approach to ministry, instead of a need-based one? How can churches work in concert with the biblical story the affirm the dignity of work? What does an economically flourishing church look like? How Christians read the Bible better?

Show notes:

0:26 The basics of the Bible and biblical interpretation
3:50 Practices that help and hinder biblical literacy
7:18 Interpretation through your social location
11:57 Interpretation as an individual and communal exercise
17:19 Made to Flourish and the dignity of work
22:16 Helping pastors think about vocation
32:00 The church as an economic agent

Learn more about Dr. Luke Bobo's writing and work at Made to Flourish.

Dr. Bobo's book A Layperson's Guide to Biblical Interpretation: A Means to Know the Personal God

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Re-Thinking Wisdom Literature in the Bible (Will Kynes) Oct 02, 2020

Since the 19th century, the term "wisdom literature" has been associated specifically with the books of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Job. When we look for wisdom in the Bible, then, we will often turn to these books. However, to divorce these works from the larger biblical corpus may have blinded us to their fuller narrative context and prevented us from seeing wisdom in other stories, poetry, and laws of Scripture.

Will Kynes, Associate Professor of Biblical and Religious Studies at Samford University, wants to broaden and challenge our understanding of wisdom and wisdom literature in the Hebrew Bible. In this episode, he talks with Dr. Dru Johnson about the Hebrew context for wisdom in the Bible, including 1 Kings, Deuteronomy, Genesis 1–3, and even contemporary Egyptian texts. Instead of limiting ourselves to the modern definitions of wisdom, perhaps we can begin to read Scripture on its own terms and enrich our understanding of its persistent and complex wisdom tradition.

Show notes:

0:28 The problem with the way we think of wisdom in the Bible
2:39 Different views of wisdom
6:38 Focusing on the concept of wisdom instead of "wisdom literature"
9:00 Understanding "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom"
10:41 Reading 1 Kings 1-11 and Proverbs
17:15 Culturally-based versus universalized pictures of wisdom
23:26 The narrative framework of Scripture
25:19 A new word for "wisdom"?
28:13 Understanding Scripture on its own terms

For more of Will Kynes's work on wisdom in the Bible, check out An Obituary for "Wisdom Literature": The Birth, Death, and Intertextual Reintegration of a Biblical Corpus.

Will Kynes's Samford University page with bio and more writings.

Show notes by Micah Long.

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How Old Testament Laws Can Shape Christians Today (Carmen Imes) Sep 25, 2020

As we've already discussed on The Biblical Mind podcast, the Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible) is more than just a bunch of old stories with some laws thrown in. Instead, it is an interwoven collection of literature, carefully crafted to shape the Israelites into the people of YHWH. However, many people still regard the the Old Testament laws as inapplicable to modern Christianity. They may see the Israelite religion as a "religion of works" while seeing Christianity as a "religion of faith."

In this episode, Dr. Carmen Imes, Associate Professor of Old Testament at Prairie College in Alberta, Canada, talks with Dr. Dru Johnson about the role of the Old Testament laws. Fulfilling individual Old Testament laws is meant to shape the wisdom and character of God's people in response to God's already accomplished work of salvation. Dr. Imes talks about biblical oath-making, the difference between ancient and modern views of law codes, and how God secures his faithfulness by swearing on Himself. If we learn to read the law as an extension of our love for God, we can see how the practices and guidance of the Torah can shape our modern life as Christians.

Show notes:

0:00 Why the Torah isn't what gave salvation to the Israelites
2:28 Why there are rules in the Bible
7:44 Oath-making in the Hebrew Bible
13:07 What the Ten Commandments were really like
17:23 The uniqueness of the Hebraic covenants and Old Testament laws
25:04 What it means to "love the LORD your God with all your heart"

Carmen Imes's blog: Chastened Institutions

Her most recent book: Bearing God's Name: Why Sinai Still Matters

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Critiquing the Church's Beliefs about Sex and Gender (Aimee Byrd) Sep 18, 2020

Author and speaker Aimee Byrd believes that a close and careful reading of the biblical texts should inform the church's view on sex and gender. Instead of resorting to 21st-century (or 20th-century) Western models of gender and sex or going with our gut instincts, perhaps the church can craft a biblical theology of gender that both preserves the categories of man and women while affirming their active and necessary roles in creation.

In this episode, Aimee Byrd and Dr. Johnson discuss a theology of gender rooted in Scripture. Along the way, they examine some of the most negative assumptions about women within Protestantism, consider biblical portrayals of women, and discuss the self-sacrificial roles of both sexes. Questions answered include:

What does it mean to be a man or be a woman?
Is the term "gender roles" inherently damaging to a discussion of biblical masculinity and femininity?
What negative cultural assumptions about the body do we import into Scripture?
What is the significance of the marriage motif in Genesis and Revelation?

Show notes:

0:00 Contemporary debates about gender
2:45 Femininity and masculinity
7:33 Cultural assumptions about the body
8:58 Admirable women in the Bible
13:20 Negative assumptions about women within Protestantism
15:57 Developing a biblical theology of gender
23:03 Protection and self-sacrifice
29:00 Marriage in Scripture

Learn more about Aimee Byrd and her work.

Her most recent book: Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Shaping Habits and Imagination for Reading Scripture (Dr. Heath Thomas) Sep 11, 2020

When people assume that they are already familiar with the Bible, they may fail to read it with a critical or careful eye (if at all). The truth is that Western people's imaginations are usually far more shaped by social media and the entertainment industry, or by even the Greco-Roman world, than by the structures and styles of the Bible. Hence, even faithful churchgoers often need additional guidance and practice reading Scripture to become biblically literate.

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson talks with Dr. Heath Thomas, President Professor of Old Testament at Oklahoma Baptist University, about how we should approach reading Scripture. Among other things, readers should consider the grammar, literary devices, motifs, and type-scenes that begin in the Torah and then unfold throughout the prophets and the New Testament. Reading Scripture well requires habituating one's imagination toward that of the authors and their conceptual worlds. When we are fully immersed in the texts, we can join the project of contextualizing and applying the Bible to the modern world.

Shownotes:

2:19 How the prophets re-contextualize the Torah in new situations
7:35 The kind of thinking required to live out God's law in new ways
12:03 How the New Testament retells the Torah like the minor prophets
14:42 Introducing Dr. Heath Thomas
17:10 Habituating ourselves to reading Scripture
21:18 How to combat biblical illiteracy through performance
30:42 Reading other literary works alongside Scripture
36:40 The complexity of the biblical narratives

Dr. Thomas's commentary on Habakkuk.

Dr. Thomas's work with the Hobbs College Library, an accessible collection of works that help people read Scripture.

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Is Asian Philosophy (including Israel) "Philosophy"? Dr. Bryan Van Norden Aug 28, 2020

When most Westerners think of "philosophy," they are inclined to think of Greco-Roman arguments or Anglo-American academics. "Philosophy" as approached this way is really nothing more than one culture's philosophical tradition, rather than a global, multicultural collection of thinkers, ideas, and methods. If we expand our definition of philosophy, we have the chance not only to challenge our own Western ways of thinking, but also to understand other cultures, from those of China to India to Ancient Israel.

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson talks to Dr. Bryan Van Norden about multicultural philosophy. Dr. Van Norden is a chair in philosophy departments at both Vassar College and Wuhan University, where he specializes in Chinese philosophy. They begin with one very difficult question: "What counts as philosophy?" From there, they discuss different definitions of philosophy, the diverse literary techniques wielded by both Eastern and Western authors, and often-overlooked philosophical texts. If people can start examining Confucius and the Hebrew Scriptures like they do Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, and Kant, their eyes will be opened to cultural traditions that are not only novel and diverse, but also equally intellectually rich and thought-provoking.

Shownotes:

0:00 Philosophy beyond the Greeks
2:12 Why people don't think of Asian philosophy as philosophy
7:23 Defining philosophy and Taking Back Philosophy
13:40 Different literary techniques in Chinese philosophy
17:50 A multicultural approach to philosophical thinking
22:20 Approaching texts like the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita
27:14 The Milindapanha and the chariot argument against the self

For more information about Dr. Van Norden and his work, visit his website, where you can find his world philosophy bibliography.

Dr. Van Norden's New York Times op-ed on multicultural philosophy: "If Philosophy Won't Diversify, Let's Call it What it Is"

The ensuing book: Taking Back Philosophy: A Multicultural Manifesto

Dr. Van Norden is James Monroe Taylor Chair in Philosophy at Vassar College (USA), and Chair Professor in Philosophy in the School of Philosophy at Wuhan University (China). Van Norden has published ten books on Chinese and comparative philosophy, including Introduction to Classical Chinese Philosophy (2011) and T aking Back Philosophy: A Multicultural Manifesto (2017). A recipient of Fulbright, National Endowment for the Humanities, and Mellon fellowships, Van Norden has been honored as one of The Best 300 Professors in the U.S. by The Princeton Review.

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Thinking Exodus: Egyptology and the Bible (James K. Hoffmeier) Aug 21, 2020

Many modern people, in both the church and the academy, don't believe that the early narratives of the Hebrew people reflect historical events. They might consider the exodus account to be, for example, a collection of inchoate legends, or a 5th-century B.C.E. exilic invention of the Jews.

Others simply regard the historicity of Scripture as a matter of "blind faith." Does it really matter when Exodus was written, or if the story even took place? Is there evidence from the biblical texts or ancient Near Eastern archaeology that these events occurred?

For some, the answer is a definitive "yes."

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson talks with Dr. James K. Hoffmeier about the history of Israel and the exodus. Dr. Hoffmeier has the distinction of being both an Egyptologist and a biblical scholar, skilled in the archaeology, culture, and history of the ancient Near East. After discussing "Egyptianisms" in Hebrew (loan-words), the etymologies of biblical names, and intersections of literature and archaeology, Dr. Hoffmeier argues that the exodus was a historical event.

This perspective, while somewhat unfashionable in contemporary scholarly debates, provides a foundation for the practices and principles of modern-day Jews and Christians.

Shownotes:

0:00 Introducing James K. Hoffmeier, his work, and his life
5:12 Being a "third-culture kid"
7:29 How studying and living in Egypt informs a reading of Scripture
14:30 Evidence that the Torah contains firsthand experience of Egypt
21:18 Etymologies of the names Moses and Korah
25:45 Cultural contextualization in the Torah and the character of God
32:27 Is the exodus account early Hebraic history or a Persian-era literary invention?
40:25 Why the historical exodus matters for theology and how it informs Hebraic law and rituals

Dr. Hoffmeier's book on the historicity of the exodus is Israel in Egypt.

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Biblical Artist Series: Ned Bustard Aug 14, 2020

How should Christians engage with the visual arts? Many forms of "Christian art" (films, children's Bibles, music) make in-your-face, moralistic claims. Other Christians condemn art because of its "bad messages." Still others believe that making art is nothing more than expressing yourself or your emotions. Ned Bustard possesses a very different perspective.

Ned is an artist and graphic designer based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. He believes that provocative, visually fascinating pieces are not necessarily in tension with Scripture. Instead, they can be used to heighten biblical themes or show us parts of the text that we had not yet noticed. Ned's book Revealed: A Storybook Bible for Grown-Ups exemplifies this approach, with gritty and novel depictions of often-whitewashed or ignored passages of Scripture.

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson talks with Ned about a couple of the most provocative pieces in Revealed. They also discuss the tearing down of Confederate statues, how art can be used as an argument, and how making woodcuts of the Bible is actually a lot like preaching.

Show notes:

1:26 What should we do about putting up and tearing down statues?
6:00 How art is like preaching
10:13 Good versus bad Christian art
15:35 Ned's work on his book Revealed
24:00 Integrating faith and art
26:29 Ned's depiction of Judges 19
34:20 Art with a "slant"
40:12 Why people miss the arguments in Biblical poetry and the visual arts

See more of Ned Bustard's work through his graphic design company, World's End Images.

Read more about the proposed cylinder around the Robert E. Lee statue.

Christians in the Visual Arts (CIVA) promotes a diverse group of artists rooted in orthodox Christianity.

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Listen to an Article: Malcolm Guite on Poetic Imagination and Biblical Prophecy Aug 04, 2020

Heather Cate reads "Why Poetic Imagination Is Necessary to Understand Biblical Prophecy," by Malcolm Guite, published July 22, 2020.

Prefer to listen to articles? The CHT will publish recorded readings of more its top articles in the coming weeks.

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A Realist Christian Response to the Horror of Trauma (Scott Harrower) Jul 08, 2020

How can Christians go beyond a "thoughts and prayers" perspective of trauma and suffering? Those who have experienced trauma, from soldiers to sexual assault survivors, often hesitate to trust members of their community.

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Scott Harrower of Ridley College, a former emergency department nurse, about the biblical response to trauma. Scott explains the psychology of PTSD and how Christians should respond to psychological suffering. From there, they discuss the roots of Pauline perspectives on comfort in the Hebrew Bible. Finally, they discuss the biblical emphasis on God equipping His people to comfort the vulnerable, rather than providing sudden or supernatural solutions.

0:00 Introducing Scott Harrower
2:09 The psychology of trauma
5:10 PTSD and trust
11:15 How the Hebrew Bible addresses trauma
14:50 How Christians should respond to suffering communities
17:38 The character of people who work for restoration and reconciliation
21:07 Concluding thoughts

For more of Dr. Scott Harrower's work, check out God of All Comfort: A Trinitarian Response to the Horrors of This World, a work on trauma, horror, and how the doctrine of the Trinity can help address the problem of evil.

Show notes by Micah Long.

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Why Scripture Doesn't Talk about Law, Religion, or Belief (Joshua Berman) Jun 26, 2020

We may uncritically assume that biblical authors think of religion, law, and belief in the same way that we do. Dr. Joshua Berman, however, notes that the ancient Hebrews didn't have the contemporary Western concepts of religion and belief, which involve individualistic intellectual assent to the right propositions. Likewise, the concept of law in the Bible isn't a clear-cut list of dos and don’ts.

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson talks with Dr. Berman about his new book, Ani Ma’amin: Biblical Criticism, Historical Truth, and the Thirteen Principles of Faith.

Show notes:

0:00 Ani Ma'amin
1:24 Why terms such as law, religion, and belief are alien to the Hebrew Bible
7:20 The modern versus the ancient understanding of religion
9:48 Modern “belief” versus ancient lived experience
17:40 Law as more than dos and don’ts
21:43 The problems with biblical source criticism and modern biblical scholarship
37:02 Maimonides, Jewish belief, and the way of life

For the nerdier version of Dr. Berman's book, check out: Inconsistency in the Torah: Ancient Literary Convention and the Limits of Source Criticism

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Scripture on Policing in America Jun 04, 2020

Dru Johnson and Celina Durgin talk about threads of teaching in Scripture regarding the use of force and systemic racism, as well as practical steps that the Torah and Jesus taught to bring justice into unjust communities.

Show notes:

1:28 How Torah protections for the vulnerable bear on our notion of justice
4:00 How the powerful/vulnerable dynamic plays out in state agency and police use of force
7:48 How the Torah evaluates self-defense and de-escalation
15:20 God’s wrath against those who mistreat the vulnerable
23:04 What the church should do in response to exploitation of the vulnerable
36:02 Why epistemic humility is essential for just policing in America
38:47 What we can learn from the modern Israeli military

Show notes by Micah Long.

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A Philosophical Theology of the Old Testament (Dr. Jaco Gericke) May 26, 2020

For a first-ever joint episode with OnScript, Dru talked to Dr. Jaco Gericke of North-West University, South Africa about his journey to philosophical theology, and some of his current research, particularly his recent book, A Philosophical Theology of the Old Testament: A historical, experimental, comparative and analytic perspective.

Among other things, they discuss:

—Why Dr. Gericke doesn't like to call himself an atheist

—How he went from disliking Old Testament studies to specializing in it

—Why "biblical theology" and "philosophical theology" are tricky terms for some scholars

—The importance of humility when interpreting Scripture

—How "wrong" ideas can spur scholarly progress

—Most importantly, which Stanley Kubrick film is the best

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Introducing Dr. Jeremiah Unterman (CHT Fellow) May 19, 2020

Dru Johnson and Dr. Jerry Unterman discuss his college years during the war in Israel, studying with Jacob Milgrom for his Ph.D., and his most recent work on the unique ethical contribution of the Bible in the ancient world. Plus, Dr. Unterman recalls his odd sighting while at UC Berkeley in the '70s.

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Is the NT Just Stoic Philosophy? [Corrected] May 14, 2020

The newest fellow of the CHT, Dr. Jonathan T. Pennington of Southern Seminary, joins Dr. Dru Johnson to discuss how Jesus' views interacted with the intellectual world of his day. This world was populated by both Jewish and Hellenistic ideas, as well as hybrids of the two traditions. In this context, Jesus' teachings, such as those in the Sermon on the Mount, generated sophisticated answers to ancient philosophical questions about, for example, the nature of true happiness and the good life.

Dr. Pennington engages this topic in more detail in his forthcoming book Jesus the Great Philosopher: Rediscovering the Wisdom Needed for the Good Life.

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Group Therapy for Anxiety in the Old Testament Apr 15, 2020

Dr. Ben White, Assistant Professor of New Testament at The King's College, discusses with CHT Director Dr. Dru Johnson his article in Christianity Today called "Fighting Anxiety With the Old Testament" — written a year ago but exceptionally applicable in the context of the Coronavirus pandemic. They talk about the honesty across the Bible about the weakness and struggles of the human condition, and how that's helpful for dealing with anxiety today.

Read Dr. White's article in Christianity Today here:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2020/april/fighting-anxiety-with-old-testament.html?share=zTVxeiWXGHWZglBLzyD69K5LJLtiykhY

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Economic Thought in the Bible Mar 25, 2020

Dr. Michael Rhodes of Union University speaks about the radical economic principles begun in the Torah and worked out in the prophets and teaching Jesus and Paul. Topics include:

The problem with objectifying "the poor".
How our wealth corrupts our view of economics.
The power of Jubilee.
How the biblical authors use "inclusion" and economic leveling in response to sin.
How Paul's letter to the Corinthians reflects Hebraic economics.

Much of this discussion also references his book written with Brian Fikkert and Robbie Holt: Practicing the King's Economy Honoring Jesus in How We Work, Earn, Spend, Save, and Give.

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Is God Perfect? Does that Matter? Peter Leithart Workshop, Part 2 Mar 25, 2020

On February 15, Rev. Dr. Peter Leithart joined the Center for Hebraic Thought and a group of about 20 professors, church-goers, and students for an all-day workshop on the Perfection of God.

In the second session, Dr. Leithart discusses the idea of "deflating metaphysics" a bit in order to see how the biblical authors describe God.

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Is God Perfect? Does that Matter? Peter Leithart Workshop, Part 1 Mar 12, 2020

On February 15, Rev. Dr. Peter Leithart joined the Center for Hebraic Thought and a group of about 20 professors, church-goers, and students for an all-day workshop on the Perfection of God.

This first session is on the primacy of Scripture in considering God's attributes.

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Is God Perfect? Does that Matter? Peter Leithart Lecture Feb 25, 2020

This podcast is taken from the evening lecture of our February 14-15 workshop with the Rev. Dr. Peter Leithart from the Theopolis Institute.
If you're interested in the content of the workshop that he refers to multiple times throughout the lecture, stay tuned for the recording of that, coming soon.

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The Hebraic Roots of Modern Equality Feb 07, 2020

Rabbi Dr. Joshua Berman (Bar-Ilan University, Israel) gave a talk at The King's College on January 31st on our modern notion of equality that was uniquely sculpted in the Hebrew Bible. Politics professors—Dr. Innes, and Dr. Griffin— and Center for Hebraic Thought fellow Dr. Shira Weiss offer responses and questions.

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Moral Progress in the Bible? Feb 04, 2020

Rabbi Dr. Jeremiah Unterman delivers a public lecture for the CHT examining moral progress in the Hebrew Bible and more generally in the ancient Near East.

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Hebraic Thought in Christmas, Part 2: Humble Moms and Shepherds Dec 17, 2019

Nerdy Episode: Baby Yoda, Christmas, & Hebrew Narrative Dec 15, 2019

Drs. Mary Hom and Dru Johnson discuss the impact of the baby Yoda story in the Christmas season, how the Star Wars stories and Yoda's poetic speech prime expectations, and how much these resemble aspects of the biblical narratives and style—especially Christmas!

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Hebraic Thought in Christmas, Part 1: Endangered Babies Dec 12, 2019

We think of Christmas as a New Testament Story, but does it start earlier?

Hint: the story of a child changing the flow of cosmic events goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden.

The nativity isn't an isolated story, but it pulls together all of God's political ambitions for the world, to run it with righteousness, justice, and peace.

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The Idea of Christian Calling Nov 19, 2019

Dru Johnson talks with Drs. Eric Smith and Scott Booth of Pillar Seminary about the notion of calling in Scripture and some of the problematic thinking about Christian vocation practiced in the church. They address the following questions:

What do Christians commonly misunderstand about calling?
Is individual calling the same as a vocation/career?
What are Christians called to do as a whole?
How do you know if God wants you to be a missionary or a banker? Does it matter?
Can we demand signs and wonders from God like Moses and Gideon did?

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Hebrew Ethics: Radical in the Ancient Near East, Yet So Familiar to Us Nov 04, 2019

In this episode, Dru talks with Dr. Unterman about biblical teaching on ethics. They discuss ancient notions of justice, law-keeping, fickle gods, and the treatment of foreigners across the Near East. Unterman highlights the specific and unusual features of Hebraic thought that have also informed our modern Western ethics more than we might realize.

Jeremiah Unterman is a resident scholar at the Herzl Institute, Jerusalem. He is the author of Justice for All: How the Jewish Bible Revolutionized Ethics, From Repentance to Redemption: Jeremiah’s Thought in Transition, and numerous scholarly articles.

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Genesis as Rationality in the Ancient Near East Oct 21, 2019

Dru talks with Eric about how Hebrews reasoned through concepts in light of the ancient Near East.

Eric is the founder and president of The Pillar Seminary. He started the seminary with 15 years of active ministry experience and a Ph.D. from Trinity College in Bristol, England. Along with education, he brings experience from serving on leadership teams with multiple churches in the midwest. He currently serves as a visiting teaching pastor for several local congregations. Prior to The Pillar, Eric taught as an Old Testament Professor for Nebraska Christian College from 2006-2014. During those years several things solidified for Eric such as his passion for teaching, his joy when helping someone thrive right where they are, and his reflection on scripture that became Jesus Prequel, his most recent book.

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From Christian-hater to CHT Co-Founder—Changed by Reading the Bible. Sep 16, 2019

Robert talks about moving from antagonism towards Christians to being deeply impacted by the message of Scripture and the Church. This episode's topics range from his work with the CHT to Christian persecution in the Middle East.

Robert Nicholson is Founder and Executive Director of The Philos Project. He holds a B.A. in Hebrew Studies from Binghamton University, and both a J.D. and M.A. in Middle Eastern history from Syracuse University. A former U.S. Marine and a 2012-13 Tikvah Fellow, Nicholson founded The Philos Project in 2014. His advocacy focuses on spreading the vision of a multi-ethnic and multi-religious Middle East based on freedom and rule of law. Mr. Nicholson serves on the Board of Directors of Passages, and is a publisher of Providence: A Journal of Christianity and American Foreign Policy. His written work has appeared in First Things, The Federalist, The Jerusalem Post, The Hill, and The American Interest, among others.

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Ethical Ambiguity, Biblical Vigilantes, and Dr. Shira Weiss (CHT Fellow) Sep 06, 2019

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson talks with Dr. Shira Weiss about her research on biblical ethics, the sticky ethical stories of Scripture, and why the biblical authors might not have given us easy answers about morality.

Shira Weiss holds a Ph.D. in Jewish Philosophy and has taught at Yeshiva University. She has earned fellowships from the NEH, The Templeton Foundation, and Ben Gurion University. Dr. Weiss is the author of Joseph Albo on Free Choice: Exegetical Innovation in Medieval Jewish Philosophy (Oxford University Press) and Ethical Ambiguity in the Hebrew Bible (Cambridge University Press), as well as articles in a variety of academic journals. She is currently working on a manuscript, Biblical Heroes on Trial: Justice and Vigilantism in the Hebrew Bible, and is co-authoring a book on protests against God in the Book of Job according to the three Abrahamic faiths.

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Introducing Dr. Joshua Berman (CHT Fellow) Aug 27, 2019

Dr. Dru Johnson talks to Dr. Berman about what the intellectual world of the Bible looks like to him.

Joshua Berman is a professor of Hebrew Bible at Bar-Ilan University, Israel. A graduate of Princeton University, Dr. Berman also studied for eight years at Yeshivat Har-Etzion in Israel and has rabbinical ordination from the Israeli Chief Rabbinate. He is the author, among other works of Created Equal: How the Bible Broke with Ancient Political Thought (Oxford, 2008) and Inconsistency in the Torah: Ancient Literary Convention and the Limits of Source Criticism (Oxford, 2017). In addition to his scholarly output, Dr. Berman has also published pieces on the Hebrew Bible and contemporary thought in Mosaic Magazine and the Wall Street Journal. Dr. Berman served as a member of the International Advisory Council of the Museum of the Bible, Washington, D.C.

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Yoram Hazony: "An Individualist Approach To The Hebrew Bible" (NPR) Aug 22, 2019

In this short NPR episode, Yoram Hazony opens the “bottle” of the Hebrew Bible and reads the message inside, arguing that the Hebrew Bible is philosophy in narrative form. The message is this: there is hope for human political affairs, and the Scriptures are an epic that advocate wariness of great imperial powers and individualism in the face of authority.

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Yoram Hazony on the Bible as Philosophy Aug 19, 2019

In this episode, CHT director Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Yoram Hazony about the recent history of viewing the Bible as a work of philosophy. They discuss the state of academics and the unique influence of Hebraic philosophy on our way of understanding the world.

Yoram Hazony is President of the Herzl Institute in Jerusalem, and currently serves as Chairman of the Edmund Burke Foundation, a new public affairs institute based in Washington that will be hosting the first National Conservatism Conference in July 2019.

His book The Virtue of Nationalism was published by Basic Books in September 2018. It has been selected as Conservative Book of the Year for 2019, and was an amazon #1 best-seller in both International Diplomacy and Nationalism. You can read all the reviews of the book here.

His previous books include The Philosophy of Hebrew Scripture (Cambridge University Press, 2012), which won the second place PROSE award for the best book in the category of Theology and Religion by the Association of American Publishers; The Jewish State: The Struggle for Israel’s Soul (Basic Books, 2000); and God and Politics in Esther (Cambridge University Press, 2016).

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FAQ: Do We Think Like Ancient Folks Did? Aug 14, 2019

Did ancient Israelites think like we do today? Did they have abstract thoughts? If we don't, then can we understand anything the biblical authors said? Dr. Dru Johnson discusses reasons to trust that we do think similarly to the biblical authors.

For a more technical survey of this discussion, see Dru's essay "Did Ancient Hebrews Have Different Minds than the Greeks?"

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FAQ: What About the New Testament? Jul 19, 2019

Abby Smith and Dr. Dru Johnson discuss what "Hebraic thought" has to do with the New Testament and whether we need the Old Testament in order to understand the New.

Note: Dr. Johnson mistakenly referenced Leviticus 18:19, which should have been Lev 19:18.

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FAQ: Why "Hebraic Thought" and not "Jewish Thought"? Jul 18, 2019

FAQ: Justice as an Example of Hebraic Thought Jul 03, 2019

For more on this, see "What is Hebraic Thought?"

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FAQ: What is Hebraic Thought? Jul 03, 2019

“Hebraic thought is more than just religion—it’s a fully-formed cultural tradition. It includes that rich collection of ideas, concepts, stories, and values that emerge from the world of ancient Israel.”

—Rob Nicholson

“‘Hebraic thought’ refers to the reasoning and philosophy developed within the Hebrew Bible, continued into the New Testament, and not found elsewhere in the ancient Near East.”

—Dru Johnson

The Hebrew Bible contains a rich tapestry of ideas worked out over centuries by the biblical authors. In addition to communicating God’s instruction to His people, we see their thinking on display through their rigorous, systematic thoughts about the nature of reality and how humans can understand reality. These thoughts aren’t just musings; the authors advocate a way of understanding reality. Both their ideas and the way they arrived at those ideas is “Hebraic thought.”

For more information, please visit us at HebraicThought.org.

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Center for Hebraic Thought *Coming Soon* Jun 12, 2019

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