The Biblical Mind

Latest Episodes:

Are There Other Gods in the Bible?: James Duguid on Divine Council (James Duguid) Ep. #253 May 21, 2026

Show notes

Did the biblical authors believe in a divine council of heavenly beings surrounding God? In this episode, Dru Johnson sits down with Hebrew Bible scholar Jamie Duguid to unpack one of the most controversial debates in modern biblical scholarship: the meaning of “sons of God” in Deuteronomy 32 and the growing influence of Michael Heiser’s Divine Council worldview.

The conversation explores the Hebrew phrase bene elohim, the Divine Council interpretation of Deuteronomy 32:8, and whether the Bible presents Yahweh as ruling among other divine beings. Duguid and Johnson examine the textual evidence behind the debate, including the Masoretic Text, the Septuagint, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Samaritan Pentateuch, Syriac translations, and Isaiah 40–55.

They also discuss Genesis 6, Psalm 82, angels, demons, ancient Near Eastern religion, monotheism vs. henotheism, and why the Divine Council framework has become so influential through scholars like Heiser.

If you’ve wondered whether the Bible teaches the existence of other gods, spiritual powers, or a heavenly council, this episode offers a careful, scholarly, and deeply accessible exploration of one of the Bible’s most fascinating theological questions.

Read more of Dr. Duguid's work here:

https://www.quaerendum.com/

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to the Divine Council Debate 07:14 Understanding Elohim and Divine Beings 13:22 The Role of the Divine Council in Scripture 18:52 The Importance of the Masoretic Text 24:55 Exploring Alternative Texts: Septuagint and Samaritan Pentateuch 31:04 The Impact of the Dead Sea Scrolls on Biblical Texts 33:21 Exploring the Dead Sea Scrolls 35:39 Textual Variations in Biblical Manuscripts 40:11 Theological Implications of Textual Differences 45:18 Assessing the Nature of Divine Beings 51:57 Reconceptualizing Godhood in Scripture 56:57 Critiques and Responses to Heiser's Work

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Is Job a Trauma Survivor?: Suffering, PTSD, and Healing in the Bible (Michelle Keener) Ep. #252 May 14, 2026

Show notes

What if the Book of Job is not primarily about explaining suffering—but about surviving trauma?

In this episode of The Biblical Mind Podcast, Dru Johnson sits down with Old Testament scholar and licensed therapist Michelle Keener to explore the Book of Job through the lens of trauma, PTSD, lament, and healing. Drawing from her book Comfort from the Ashes, Keener argues that the long poetic sections of Job—often skipped by modern readers—may actually portray the slow process of trauma recovery rather than abstract theological debate.

Together, Dru and Michelle discuss why Job’s friends sound so much like modern Christian clichés, how churches often rush people past suffering toward “victory,” and why lament is essential to spiritual health. The conversation also explores the neuroscience of trauma, the body’s involuntary survival responses, repetition in trauma processing, and how God’s presence—not simplistic answers—brings healing in Job.

They also examine the church’s discomfort with anger, grief, and unresolved pain, asking whether modern Christians have lost the biblical language of lament found in Job and the Psalms.

This episode is a thoughtful and deeply pastoral conversation for anyone wrestling with suffering, trauma, faith, or the meaning of the Book of Job.

For Michelle Keener's latest book, buy it here:

https://www.ivpress.com/comfort-in-the-ashes

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Job and Common Misunderstandings 02:08 The Movie Tree of Life as an Exposition of Job 04:07 Is Job the Oldest Book in the Bible? 05:23 The Significance of the Middle Poetry in Job 06:22 Trauma and the Messy Middle of Job 08:17 Sitting with Suffering: The Role of Lament and Honesty 09:42 Job as a Trauma Survivor and Its Modern Relevance 11:55 The Process of Healing and God's Presence 14:07 Physiological Responses to Trauma and Divine Design 16:50 Reintegration of Trauma and the Role of Narrative 19:44 The Encounter with God as Resolution 22:40 Creating Trauma-Informed Church Spaces 24:37 The Power of Honest Testimony and Lament 26:42 The Ubiquity of Trauma Talk and Its Nuances 29:48 Language of Trauma: Distress, Wounded, and Healing 33:40 Ripple Effects of Trauma on Families and Communities 36:11 How to Approach Reading Job for Deep Understanding 38:18 Interpreting Job's Final Resolution and God's Response 40:20 Theological Insights: God's Goodness and Human Suffering 41:18 Conclusion: Healing and Hope in the Biblical Narrative

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What Hegseth Gets Wrong About Pharisees (Jeffrey Garcia) Bonus Episode May 11, 2026

Show notes

In this episode, biblical scholar Jeffrey Garcia joins Dru Johnson to unpack one of the most misunderstood groups in the New Testament: the Pharisees. Prompted by recent public comments from U.S. Secretary of War Pete Hegseth, the conversation explores how the term “Pharisee” has often been used as a caricature for hypocrisy—and why that misunderstanding can contribute to anti-Jewish and anti-Semitic attitudes.

Drawing from the Gospels, Acts, ancient Judaism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, Dr. Garcia explains that the Pharisees were not simply legalistic villains opposed to Jesus. Instead, many Pharisees shared substantial theological ground with Jesus and were actively engaged in serious debates about how to faithfully live out God’s commandments. The episode also examines how Christian preaching has historically oversimplified the Pharisees, why phrases like “Christ killer” emerged from these distortions, and how pastors and churches can teach the New Testament more responsibly today.

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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding the Pharisees: Context and Misconceptions 08:47 The Pharisees and Their Relationship with Jesus 17:45 Navigating Modern Discourse on Pharisees and Anti-Semitism

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Vocation vs. Career vs. Calling (Steven Garber) Ep. #251 May 07, 2026

Show notes

What does it truly mean to have a vocation—and how is it different from a career? In this thought-provoking conversation, Steven Garber and Dru Johnson explore the deep disconnect between faith and everyday work, challenging the dualism that separates “spiritual” callings from ordinary life.

Garber argues that vocation is not reserved for clergy or religious roles but is integral to the mission of God. Drawing from biblical theology, church history, and lived experience, the discussion highlights how modern culture often reduces calling to career success, income, or personal fulfillment—leaving many disillusioned.

Together, they unpack the tension between vocation and occupation, the myth of “doing what you love,” and the overlooked dignity of ordinary work—from parenting to manual labor. The conversation also addresses the Protestant work ethic, the confusion between money and meaning, and why younger generations struggle with career pressure and purpose.

With insights shaped by L’Abri, Hebraic thought, and a lifelong exploration of what it means to be human, Garber offers a compelling vision: true vocation is about coherence—aligning who we are with how we live in the world.

This episode is essential listening for anyone wrestling with calling, work, and the search for a meaningful life.

Dr. Garber's books can be bought here:

https://www.ivpress.com/steven-garber

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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding Vocation: Common Misunderstandings 03:03 The Role of Dualism in Vocation 04:55 Biblical Literacy and Vocation 06:41 The Protestant Work Ethic and Its Implications 12:07 The Nature of Work: Toil and Redemption 18:19 The Value of Work Beyond Monetary Gain 20:48 The Importance of Ordinary Work in the Church 24:45 Vocation vs. Occupation: Understanding the Difference 29:22 The Influence of Labrie on Personal Development 33:56 The Value of Delayed College Education 41:37 Exploring the Human Condition 47:59 The Role of Truth in Storytelling and Society

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C.S. Lewis Under the Microscope: Biblical Accuracy, Errors, and Influence (Leslie Baynes) Ep. #250 Apr 30, 2026

Show notes

In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. Leslie Baynes explores the complex relationship between C.S. Lewis and the Bible. While Lewis is widely celebrated for his theological insight and literary brilliance, Baynes’ research uncovers a more nuanced reality—one where Lewis occasionally misquotes scripture, relies heavily on memory, and even attributes statements to Jesus that do not appear in the Gospels.

Drawing from her book Between Interpretation and Imagination: C.S. Lewis and the Bible, Baynes examines both Lewis’s profound contributions and his interpretive missteps, including his famous “liar, lunatic, or Lord” argument.

The episode also tackles the cultural phenomenon of “Saint Lewis,” particularly among American evangelicals, and the resistance to critically evaluating his work. Yet, rather than dismissing Lewis, Baynes advocates for a balanced perspective—appreciating his literary and spiritual impact while engaging his ideas with scholarly rigor.

This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in biblical interpretation, theology, and the enduring influence of one of Christianity’s most beloved thinkers.

You can buy Dr. Baynes' book here: https://www.eerdmans.com/9781467469708/between-interpretation-and-imagination/

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to C.S. Lewis and Evangelical Perception 03:00 The Complexity of C.S. Lewis's Legacy 05:57 Navigating Criticism in Lewis Studies 08:59 The Role of Biblical Scholars in Lewis's Work 12:06 The Trilemma: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord? 14:45 Gender Dynamics in Scholarly Critique 23:55 The Influence of Michael Ward 26:01 Critique of C.S. Lewis's Biblical Interpretation 27:15 Misquoting Jesus: The Dangers of Inaccurate Scripture 31:11 The Problem with Lewis's Scriptural Assertions 33:24 The Adulterous Woman: A Misplaced Argument 38:26 Lewis's Misunderstanding of Greco-Roman Literature 40:14 C.S. Lewis and the Chronicles of Narnia 44:30 A Hermeneutics of Love 47:23 C.S. Lewis: A Public Intellectual?

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Rethinking Women in Ministry: From Genesis to Paul (Preston Sprinkle) Ep. #249 Apr 23, 2026

Show notes

What does the Bible actually say about women in church leadership—and are we asking the wrong questions? In this episode, Dru Johnson sits down with biblical scholar Preston Sprinkle to explore the complex, often misunderstood topic of gender roles in Scripture. Drawing from his book From Genesis to Junia, Sprinkle shares his “exegetical journey,” a multi-year study that avoids predetermined conclusions and instead carefully examines key biblical texts.

Together, they challenge modern assumptions often imposed on Scripture, including Western ideas about equality, hierarchy, and leadership. The conversation highlights how women are portrayed throughout the Bible—from influential figures in the Old Testament to faithful disciples in the Gospels—and why these narratives matter for interpreting passages like 1 Timothy 2.

They also unpack how leadership functioned in the early church, revealing a more fluid and diverse structure than many assume today. Rather than offering simplistic answers, this episode invites listeners to wrestle with the full biblical witness, appreciate its complexity, and approach the conversation with humility, patience, and deeper study.

Whether you’re complementarian, egalitarian, or still exploring, this discussion offers fresh insight into one of the church’s most debated topics.

You can buy Dr. Preston Sprinkle's latest book here:

https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9780830785803_from-genesis-to-junia?

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Chapters:

00:00 The Journey of Understanding Women in Leadership 02:58 Cultural Context and Biblical Interpretation 13:04 Women in the Old Testament vs. New Testament 18:11 Exegetical Challenges and Practical Applications 23:42 The Complexity of Prescriptive and Descriptive Narratives 25:50 Theological Rationale in Creation Order 27:39 Desire and Headship: A Deeper Look 28:09 Authority and Epistemic Roles in Relationships 29:37 Leadership Dynamics in the Early Church 32:43 Paul's Perspective on Gender Roles 36:59 Women in Paul's Ministry: A Closer Examination 40:00 Cultural Context and Gender Stereotypes 41:50 Celebrating Gender Differences in Leadership

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Inside the Bible Business: The Story behind Publishing the NIV (Paul Caminiti) Ep. #248 Apr 16, 2026

Show notes

In this episode, former Bible publisher Paul Caminiti shares an insider look at the global Bible industry, revealing surprising truths about how Scripture is translated, marketed, and consumed. From his leadership role at Zondervan to overseeing millions of Bible sales annually, Caminiti uncovers the business dynamics behind modern Bible publishing—including why Bibles remain the bestselling book every year.

The conversation dives into the creation of the New International Version (NIV), exploring the complex, expensive process of translation and the ongoing scholarly debates between “word-for-word” and “thought-for-thought” approaches. Caminiti also recounts the intense “Bible wars,” where cultural, theological, and political pressures clashed over gender-inclusive language in Scripture.

Despite record-breaking sales—over 25 million Bibles sold annually in North America—Bible reading continues to decline. Caminiti explains why, pointing to fragmented reading habits, over-engineered study Bibles, and the unintended consequences of chapter and verse formatting.

Ultimately, this episode challenges listeners to rethink how they engage with Scripture, introducing a fresh approach that emphasizes immersive, communal reading over isolated study—offering a compelling vision for rediscovering the Bible’s original impact.

Buy the Immerse Bible here:

https://ourdailybreadpublishing.org/immerse-bible.html

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For more articles:
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Chapters:

00:00 The Bible Publishing Industry: Surprises and Insights 04:34 The Economics of Bible Publishing 10:44 Translation Challenges and Scholarly Rigor 17:43 Navigating the Bible Wars 24:27 Marketing Strategies and Media Reactions 30:11 Controversies in Bible Translation 31:53 Understanding Gendered Language in Translation 35:26 The Bible's Bestselling Status vs. Reading Trends 39:10 The Dilemma of Bible Sales vs. Engagement 42:10 Introducing the Immersed Bible 51:13 The Impact of Reading Order on Understanding Scripture

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Was Paul a Philosopher? Rethinking the Apostle as Rabbi and Thinker (Joseph Dodson) Ep. #247 Apr 09, 2026

Show notes

How should we understand Paul—as a rabbi, a philosopher, or something else entirely?

In this episode, Dr. Joseph Dodson explores Paul as a figure who operates within both Jewish and Greco-Roman intellectual worlds. Rather than forcing a choice between “rabbi” or “philosopher,” the discussion shows how Paul embodies elements of both. He is deeply trained in the Scriptures of Israel and interprets them with methods recognizable within Jewish tradition, yet he is also conversant with the philosophical categories and rhetorical practices of the wider Greco-Roman context.

This dual identity helps explain both the content and the form of Paul’s letters. His arguments are not abstract theological constructions detached from history, nor are they merely repetitions of inherited tradition. Instead, they represent a dynamic engagement with Scripture in conversation with the intellectual world of his day.

The episode highlights how modern readers often flatten Paul into one category or another, missing the richness of his thought. By recovering Paul as both rabbi and philosopher, we gain a clearer picture of how he communicates the significance of the Messiah to diverse audiences.

Ultimately, this approach invites us to read Paul with greater historical sensitivity and intellectual nuance.

For Joseph Dodson's latest book, buy it here:

https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9798400500527_paul-the-rabbi-philosopher-stoic-and-jewish-philosophy-in-the-apostles-thought

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For more articles:
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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding Paul: Context is Key
02:09 Paul as Rabbi Philosopher: Bridging Two Worlds
09:58 The Apocalyptic Paul: A New Perspective
14:16 Politics and Philosophy: Paul's Counter-Cultural Message
18:09 Sin and Systemic Issues: A Deeper Understanding
20:03 The Law's Weakness: Setting the Stage for Grace
25:54 The Role of Law and Spirit in Paul’s Theology
27:39 Paul as Rabbi and Philosopher
28:48 Paul's Relationship with the Hebrew Text
29:43 The Wisdom of Solomon and Paul
33:06 Paul's Jewish Identity and the Law
35:01 Paul's Approach to Gentiles and the Law
36:53 Paul's Communication Style and Cultural Fluency
38:27 The Genius of Paul
41:07 The Connection between Nietzsche and Paul’s Philosophy
43:00 The Unique Voice of Paul in the Church

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Bible First: The Bible And Politics Go Great Together, But How? (Mike Tolliver) Ep. #246 Apr 02, 2026

Show notes

In this episode, Mike Tolliver and Dru Johnson reflect on the inaugural Bible First conference on politics, assessing both its successes and its limitations. Designed to “cut through the noise” of contemporary political commentary, the conference aimed to resource Christians with biblically grounded thinking rather than culturally inherited assumptions.

The conversation highlights a central tension: while many speakers engaged important historical and theological insights, fewer fully embodied the “Bible First” methodology by tracing political concepts directly through Scripture. This revealed a broader challenge within the church—namely, the difficulty of grounding political theology in the narrative and legal frameworks of the Bible, especially the Torah.

Key takeaways include the importance of defining contested terms like “Christian nationalism,” the need to examine how cultural assumptions shape biblical interpretation, and the value of recovering categories such as nationhood, law, and kingship from within Scripture itself. The hosts also reflect on memorable contributions from the conference, including themes of dual citizenship in the kingdom of God and fresh biblical frameworks for understanding the nations.

Ultimately, the episode frames the conference as a successful first step—one that raised better questions, exposed gaps, and set the stage for more focused, Scripture-driven conversations in the future.

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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to the Conference on Politics in the Bible
03:30 Defining Christian Nationalism and Its Implications
05:19 The Concept of 'Bible First' in Political Theology
09:42 Key Takeaways from the Conference Papers
15:49 The Role of Torah in Understanding Political Ethics
21:15 Coercive Power and Its Biblical Context
23:37 Understanding Nationhood and Identity
30:09 The Role of Law in Ancient Israel
31:27 Natural Law vs. Revealed Law
33:17 Expectations of Kingship and Governance
36:48 Future Topics for Discussion

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The Truth About Iran: Religion, Power, & the Rise of Underground Churches (Farhad Rezaei) Ep. #245 Mar 26, 2026

Show notes

Is Iran truly an Islamic nation—or is that a misconception shaped by politics and media?

In this episode, Dru Johnson speaks with political scientist Dr. Farhad Rezaei, who offers an insider’s perspective on religion, culture, and power in modern Iran. Contrary to common assumptions, Rezaei explains that only a minority of Iranians actively identify as Muslim, with many describing themselves as secular, non-religious, or spiritually unaffiliated.

At the same time, Iran is experiencing what Rezaei calls a “religious revolution”: a dramatic rise in Christian conversions, growing from just a few hundred in 1979 to millions today. This growth is occurring despite severe consequences, including imprisonment or even death for those who convert. As a result, many believers gather in secret “house churches,” where Bible study and worship continue underground.

The episode also explores how state enforcement of Islamic law has paradoxically contributed to widespread disillusionment. As Iranians became more familiar with official religious teachings, many concluded that they conflicted with their cultural identity and moral intuitions.

Rezaei also provides insight into the political realities of the Iranian regime, the treatment of religious minorities, and the broader geopolitical tensions shaping the region today.

Ultimately, this conversation challenges listeners to rethink simplistic narratives and better understand the complex religious landscape within Iran.

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Chapters:
00:00 Understanding Iran: A Cultural Overview
05:01 The Rise of Christianity in Iran
09:58 Religious Minorities and Their Struggles
14:57 House Churches: A New Form of Worship
20:06 Personal Stories: Faith and Identity in Iran
21:30 Understanding Shi'ism: A Deep Dive
24:43 The Geopolitical Landscape: Iran and Israel
27:02 Nuclear Ambitions: The Threat of Iran
30:03 Rationality in Warfare: The Iranian Perspective
34:28 The Iranian Regime: Current State and Future Prospects

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