Talkin‘ Politics & Religion Without Killin‘ Each Other

Latest Episodes:

(Best of) David Brooks, HOW TO KNOW A PERSON: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen Apr 03, 2025

Show notes

This conversation with David Brooks was a real highlight. We originally recorded our talk just after his most recent book HOW TO KNOW A PERSON was released. Enjoy.

You might recognize David Brooks from his columns in The New York Times or his essays in The Atlantic. Perhaps you’ve seen him on PBS NewsHour or Meet the Press. He’s also a prolific author. In fact, his 2019 book The Second Mountain was a major inspiration for this program. We discuss that as well as David’s new book, How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen (Penguin Random House).

Our conversation with "Brooksie" went in a number of surprising directions:

Sociological observations (and confessions) of New York Mets fans;
The way lifelong friends enrich our lives;
Depression - fair warning that this section gets pretty gritty and candid;
How, as observant Jews, we both discovered Christianity later in life;
As Jews who are Christian, whether we have any ambivalence;
American Evangelicalism - talk about ambivalence!
David's writing process and the motivation of deadlines;
and much, much more!

Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

Please support our wonderful sponsor Meza Wealth Management:

www.mezawealth.com

And you can find Corey on all the socials @coreysnathan such as

www.threads.net/@coreysnathan.

David's new book HOW TO KNOW A PERSON:

www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/652822/how-to-know-a-person-by-david-brooks

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Mónica Guzmán: Breaking the Cycle of Outrage Through Fearlessly Curious Conversations Mar 31, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, host Corey Nathan welcomes back Monica Guzmán, Senior Fellow for Public Practice at Braver Angels, host of A Braver Way podcast, CEO of Reclaim Curiosity, and author of I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times. Monica’s mission is to help bridge America’s political divides through fearless curiosity. With deep reflections on the 2024 election, evolving friendships across ideological lines, and her renewed commitment to bridge building, Monica shares how we can stay grounded and connected—especially when it feels impossible.

What We Discuss:

How Moni processes political polarization and stays grounded—even when the world feels divided
Practical strategies for engaging with people across ideological lines without compromising your values
Why shared outrage across political lines can be a gateway to unity
The role of empathy, humility, and curiosity in depolarizing conversations
How journalists and moderators can better navigate falsehoods without censoring legitimate concerns

Episode Highlights:

[00:03:00] – Mónica explains how her emotional radar helps her know when to seek out conversations with people who see politics differently.
[00:08:00] – Unexpected agreement: conservatives and liberals are both frustrated with Congressional dysfunction and executive overreach.
[00:14:00] – Moni shares how talking with people who had different experiences during COVID reshaped her understanding and empathy.
[00:21:00] – Corey and Mónica discuss boundaries in bridge building—when is it time to walk away from a relationship?
[00:29:00] – Moderating contentious conversations: “police the structure, not the content.”
[00:36:00] – The relationship between activism and dialogue—and why one without the other can be reckless or ineffective.
[00:46:00] – Tips for recognizing quality journalism and avoiding emotionally manipulative content.
[00:56:00] – Mónica’s closing advice: engagement is not endorsement. Curiosity and conversation don’t mean you’re compromising your values.

Featured Quotes: “I’ve been persuaded over and over again that positions against mine are not ludicrous.” – Mónica Guzmán “Engagement is not endorsement. Having a conversation doesn’t mean you’re capitulating.” – Mónica Guzmán “Find your edge—and push it. That’s all you need to do to build a bridge.” – Mónica Guzmán “I don't want a decision or a position to get in the way of our relationship. I want to understand it better.” – Corey Nathan Resources Mentioned:

I Never Thought of It That Way by Monica Guzmán - moniguzman.com/book
Braver Angels - braverangels.org

📣 Call to Action:

If you found this conversation insightful, please:
✅ Subscribe to Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other on your favorite podcast platform.
✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen: ratethispodcast.com/goodfaithpolitics
✅ Support the show on Patreon: patreon.com/politicsandreligion
✅ Watch the full conversation and subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/@politicsandreligion

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ICYMI: 7 Tools for Engaging With "Them" Mar 30, 2025

Show notes

Can we bridge the partisan divide and have constructive dialogue about politics and religion with "them" - people who have different beliefs about democracy, politics and religion? Are we able to simply have civil, civic conversations?

(We're grateful to have a number of new listeners. So we thought it'd be good to revisit this episode that was first aired just after the inauguration.)

In this edition, host Corey Nathan explores how we can have meaningful, respectful, and productive conversations with those who think differently from us—politically, religiously, and ideologically. After four years of hosting the show and speaking with a wide array of guests, Corey shares his own insights, offering seven practical tools (plus a bonus tip) for engaging with “one of them” in a way that fosters connection rather than division.

What Is Discussed

How to give yourself and others grace in difficult conversations
The importance of setting proper expectations when discussing sensitive topics
Why asking the right questions is more powerful than having the perfect comeback
How storytelling can humanize those with whom we disagree
The value of being open to the phrase "I never thought of it that way"
How to recognize when it’s time to step away from a conversation or to love someone "from a safe distance"
Resources and organizations that can help you navigate difficult discussions

Episode Highlights

⏳ [00:02:00] – Reviews from listeners: the good, the bad, and the constructive
⏳ [00:05:00] – The purpose of this episode: sharing tools for engaging with "one of them"
⏳ [00:06:00] – Tool #1: Grace – Accepting that we will all make mistakes in these conversations
⏳ [00:09:00] – Tool #2: Proper Expectations – Why we shouldn't expect to change someone's mind 180 degrees
⏳ [00:12:00] – Tool #3: Asking Questions – Learning from Jesus' approach of responding with questions
⏳ [00:20:00] – Tool #4: Storytelling – The power of narrative in understanding each other as human beings
⏳ [00:25:00] – Tool #5: Being Open to "I Never Thought of It That Way" Moments
⏳ [00:32:00] – Tool #6: Recognizing Your Line – Knowing when to step away from an unhealthy dynamic
⏳ [00:35:00] – Tool #7: Equipping Yourself – Books, organizations, and resources for learning how to engage better
⏳ [00:38:00] – Bonus Tip: Taking Care of Yourself – Mental, emotional, and physical well-being in this work

Featured Quotes

📢 “Give yourself grace. You’re not going to get it right every time.”
📢 “If we ask the right question, it allows that person, instead of being in a posture of combat, to tell their story.”
📢 “Trying to inform, like trying to win, can get in the way of trying to listen.” – Monica Guzmán (as quoted in the episode)
📢 “People are mysteries, not puzzles.” – Monica Guzmán

Resources Mentioned

📖 Books:

I Never Thought of It That Way – by Mónica Guzmán
How to Know a Person – by David Brooks

🌍 Organizations:

The Village Square – Encouraging healthy civic discourse
Braver Angels – Bridging political divides through dialogue

🎥 Watch & Support the Podcast:

YouTube Channel – Subscribe for video content
Patreon – Support the show

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🔹 Now go talk some politics and religion—but with gentleness and respect. 💡

#Politics #Religion #NeverTrump #Democracy #Faith #Justice #Civility #Polarization

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A Frank Discussion on American Politics with an "Untethered Expat" Originally from Bucks County PA Mar 28, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, host Corey Nathan reconnects with his longtime friend Gary Keifer, an expat currently living in Peru. Gary brings a refreshingly honest and “untethered” perspective to U.S. politics, unfiltered by party loyalty or institutional affiliation. With a background in comedy, improv, and theater, Gary offers thoughtful insights rooted in personal experience and global observations. The conversation spans topics from immigration and working-class politics to why Gary abstained from discussing American politics for years—until now. Together, Corey and Gary exemplify what it means to engage in civil discourse across ideological lines.

What We Discuss:

Why Gary calls himself an "untethered expat" and what that means for his political views.
How the Clinton-era Democratic strategy toward the working class contributed to the rise of Trump.
Why immigration is the central issue Gary believes needs urgent resolution—and how both parties have failed on it.
The limitations of elite political commentary and the value of everyday perspectives.
Why Trump’s populism appeals to working-class voters despite his billionaire status.
The potential dangers of overreaching political mandates and ignoring opposing voices.

Episode Highlights:

[00:02:00] – Corey introduces Gary, a longtime friend with a unique expat perspective on U.S. politics.
[00:04:30] – Gary explains his belief in choosing “common people” over public figures for meaningful conversations.
[00:08:00] – Why Gary broke his two-year vow of not discussing U.S. politics.
[00:10:30] – How Bill Clinton’s shift away from labor shaped modern political realignment.
[00:16:00] – A comedic (and thought-provoking) take on Trump’s origin story and Steve Bannon’s influence.
[00:30:00] – Gary criticizes both parties for exploiting immigration and creating a caste system.
[00:34:00] – Corey and Gary analyze Biden’s early decisions and whether reversing Trump-era immigration policies was a political mistake.
[00:45:00] – The bipartisan immigration deal Trump blocked—and what it reveals about political strategy.
[01:00:00] – Gary pleads: “Just give Trump the win on immigration so we can move on.”

Featured Quotes: “Fascism doesn't just appear out of nowhere. It fills a void left by something else.” – Gary Keifer “You can’t skip Chapter One of fascism—how we got here matters.” – Gary Keifer “Compromise is the substrate of democracy.” – Corey Nathan “At the end of the day, we're just regular guys trying to have conversations most people are avoiding.” – Corey Nathan 📣 Call to Action:

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Speaking Truth to Power (and to the Pews): Peter Wehner on the Evangelical Vote and America's Future Mar 24, 2025

Show notes

In this conversation, host Corey Nathan welcomes back Peter Wehner, contributing writer at The Atlantic and The New York Times, senior fellow at the Trinity Forum, and author of multiple books including The Death of Politics and City of Man. A former speechwriter for President George W. Bush, Pete brings a unique perspective shaped by his deep political experience, Christian faith, and unwavering moral compass. Together, Corey and Pete engage in a wide-ranging conversation on the 2024 election, the moral health of our nation, the role of the church, and the constitutional implications of a second Trump presidency.

What We Discuss:

How Pete Wehner processed the pivotal moments of the 2024 election, including Biden’s withdrawal and Kamala Harris’s campaign
Why Donald Trump’s reelection reveals unsettling truths about American society and the church
How constitutional crises might unfold under Trump’s second term
Why thinkers like Vaclav Havel, Solzhenitsyn, and Tocqueville are essential guides in this political moment
How to have more effective and empathetic conversations across political and religious divides

Episode Highlights:

[00:01:00] – Introduction to Pete Wehner’s background and career
[00:02:00] – Pete reflects on Biden’s debate performance and why he felt Biden should have withdrawn sooner
[00:05:00] – Analysis of Kamala Harris’s campaign, debate performance, and what ultimately cost her the election
[00:09:00] – The moral reckoning: what Trump’s reelection says about American voters and the church
[00:14:00] – Pete dissects why evangelicals have remained loyal to Trump and how rationalizations took hold
[00:27:00] – A 30-page email exchange: Pete’s attempt to reason with a high-profile Trump supporter and what it revealed
[00:34:00] – Trump’s “appetite for revenge”: Pete outlines troubling actions already taken in just 60 days of Trump’s second term
[00:41:00] – Defining a constitutional crisis and what happens when a president defies court rulings
[00:46:00] – Finding hope and moral clarity through leaders like Havel, Solzhenitsyn, and Tocqueville
[00:50:00] – The TP&R question: Pete's insights on how to build better conversations across our differences

Featured Quotes:

“Donald Trump is president because of the white evangelical vote. He touched something deep in the hearts of many Christians—and that should trouble us.” – Peter Wehner

“Hope is not the conviction that something will turn out well; it’s the certainty that something makes sense, regardless of how it turns out.” – Vaclav Havel (quoted by Pete)

“We're moving toward a constitutional crisis... If Trump defies a court order, we may find out how many divisions Chief Justice John Roberts really has.” – Peter Wehner

“We have to prioritize human relationships. The ripple effects for the country can be healthy.” – Peter Wehner

Resources Mentioned:

Peter Wehner’s articles in The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/peter-wehner/
Peter Wehner’s columns in The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/column/peter-wehner
“The Power of the Powerless” by Vaclav Havel: https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/resource/the-power-of-the-powerless/
The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: https://www.amazon.com/Gulag-Archipelago-1918-1956-Experiment-Investigation/dp/0061253804
Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/815/815-h/815-h.htm

📣 Call to Action:

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Beyond Arguments: Setting Boundaries and Clearing the Brush for Civil Political and Religious Conversations Mar 21, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, we explore some essential tools for navigating difficult conversations in today’s polarized world. After all, we are part of The Democracy Group! And our goal with TDG and this program is to foster respectful, insightful discussions on politics, religion, and other sensitive topics—without resorting to hostility.

In this solo episode, Corey shares practical strategies for setting boundaries, "clearing the brush" (i.e. assumptions), and focusing on meaningful conversations rather than debates.

📌 What We Discuss:

✅ Why having clear boundaries is crucial for productive dialogue
✅ How to recognize and avoid being drawn into unproductive interrogations
✅ The importance of "clearing the brush" (i.e. assumptions) and engaging in genuine conversations
✅ Why listening and storytelling are more powerful than debating facts
✅ How building relationships—not just “winning” arguments—creates lasting change

⏳ Episode Highlights:

🕒 [00:00:00] – Welcome & Calls to Action: Corey shares updates on YouTube, podcast subscriptions, and Patreon.
🕒 [00:06:00] – The Big Question: How do we engage in tough conversations without falling into arguments?
🕒 [00:07:00] – Setting Boundaries: Recognizing when a conversation is an interrogation vs. a genuine exchange.
🕒 [00:10:00] – Admitting Limitations: The power of saying, "I’m not an expert."
🕒 [00:14:00] – No Need to Defend What You Don’t Believe: Why you don’t have to argue every point.
🕒 [00:21:00] – Clearing the Brush: Breaking down stereotypes and assumptions before real discussions can begin.
🕒 [00:26:00] – Seeking Conversations, Not Contests: The difference between dialogue and debate.
🕒 [00:32:00] – The Daryl Davis Approach: How listening has led KKK members to renounce their beliefs.
🕒 [00:35:00] – Final Thoughts: Tools for better discussions and how to support the podcast.

💬 Featured Quotes:

🗣️ “There is no need to submit to an interrogation. If you want to have a conversation, let’s have a conversation.” – Corey Nathan

🗣️ “I don’t have to defend a position that I don’t hold.” – Corey Nathan

🗣️ “The road to solving a lot of what ails us is not in winning debates—it’s in having healthier conversations.” – Corey Nathan

🗣️ “Conversations lead to relationships, and relationships lead to epiphanies.” – Corey Nathan

📚 Resources Mentioned:

🔗 Daryl Davis – Watch his TED Talk
🔗 Braver Angels – Building Bridges Across Political Divides

📣 Call to Action

🔗 Connect With Us on Social Media

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Our Sponsors

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🔥 Final Thought:
Go out and have better conversations. Set boundaries, clear the brush, and seek dialogue—not debates. See you next time on Talkin’ Politics & Religion Without Killin’ Each Other! 🎙️

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Charlie Sykes - From Reagan Republicans to RFK Jr.: How the Right Lost Its Mind (Again) Mar 17, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, host Corey Nathan sits down with Charlie Sykes, a prominent conservative commentator, former talk radio host, and founder of The Bulwark, who's currently writing and podcasting on his excellent Substack To the Contrary. Known for his sharp political insights and willingness to challenge the current trajectory of the Republican Party, Charlie discusses the erosion of democratic norms, the transformation of conservatism, and what the future holds for both parties.

📌 What We Discuss

How the Republican Party shifted from traditional conservatism to a Trump-dominated movement.
Why democracy faces real threats in the U.S. and globally.
The importance of character in political leadership and why many conservatives abandoned this principle.
Whether a pro-democracy coalition can hold back extremism in both parties.
Charlie's thoughts on how we can have better political conversations without dehumanizing each other.

⏳ Episode Highlights

🔹 [00:01:00] Charlie’s Journey: From influential conservative talk radio host to political outcast in the Trump era.
🔹 [00:05:00] The Evolution of Trumpism: Why Trump 2.0 is even more dangerous than his first presidency.
🔹 [00:12:00] Engaging With Trump Supporters: Is it possible to change minds, or should we focus on mobilizing pro-democracy voters?
🔹 [00:22:00] The Republican Party’s Transformation: How the far-right fringe became the mainstream.
🔹 [00:35:00] Can Democrats Avoid the Same Mistakes? Learning from the GOP's takeover by extremists.
🔹 [00:47:00] America’s Role in the World: Why the U.S. is no longer seen as the leader of the free world.
🔹 [01:02:00] Building Bridges Across Differences: The importance of assuming goodwill and finding shared values.

💬 Featured Quotes

"I’d rather be right than Marco Rubio right now." – Charlie Sykes
"The Republican Party had multiple off-ramps to reject Trumpism, and they took none of them." – Charlie Sykes
"We are living through history, and we don’t have the luxury of indifference." – Charlie Sykes
"The challenge isn’t just about talking politics—it’s about figuring out how to get through this without killing each other." – Corey Nathan

📚 Resources Mentioned

Charlie Sykes’ Substack Newsletter: To the Contrary
Charlie’s 2018 book: How the Right Lost Its Mind
The Identity Trap by Yascha Mounk

📣 Call to Action

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Grave Concerns and Glimmers of Hope: Navigating the State of US Politics Mar 14, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, host Corey Nathan shares his candid thoughts on hope, concerns about the state of democracy, and the importance of engaging in meaningful conversations. Inspired by recent discussions with David French and Charlie Sykes, Corey explores whether he remains hopeful about the future—both at the national level and in his local community.

What You Will Learn

The state of American democracy and the balance of power
How the First Amendment is being threatened
Why the judicial branch has been a critical check on executive overreach
The role of civil discourse in bridging ideological divides
How personal relationships offer reasons for hope

Episode Highlights

[00:00:00] – Introduction: Exploring the question of hope in today’s political climate
[00:01:30] – Why Corey is concerned about the balance of power in government
[00:05:00] – The judicial branch as a key safeguard against executive overreach
[00:07:30] – Threats to First Amendment rights, including freedom of speech and the press
[00:12:00] – The rise of online hostility and how it impacts public discourse
[00:18:00] – Finding hope through local engagement and personal relationships
[00:22:00] – The power of human connection in bridging political divides

Featured Quotes

"I have concerns about the balance of power and our First Amendment rights—but that doesn't mean I’m without hope."

"When we engage with each other at the local level, it becomes about relationships instead of transactions."

"If we really want to change things, we have to start by recognizing each other's humanity."

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David French | Friends or Enemies? Overcoming Divides with Justice, Kindness, and Humility in a Polarized America Mar 09, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, we welcome back David French, columnist for The New York Times, former constitutional attorney, and author of Divided We Fall. We discuss the current state of American democracy, the challenges of political division, and how we can engage in civil discourse despite deep ideological differences. David also shares a personal update on his family and reflects on the profound trials and growth that come with adversity.

📌 What We Discuss:

✔️ How David and his family navigated the challenges of a serious health crisis.
✔️ The rise of political polarization and the factors driving it.
✔️ Why distinguishing between “unwise, unethical, and unlawful” is crucial in analyzing political actions.
✔️ How consuming different perspectives (even opposing ones) helps in understanding political dynamics.
✔️ The role of Christian values in politics and how they are being redefined.

⏳ Episode Highlights

📍 [00:01:00] – David French’s background and his journey from litigation to journalism.
📍 [00:02:30] – Personal update: David shares his wife Nancy’s battle with cancer and their journey as a family.
📍 [00:06:00] – How to navigate personal trials while maintaining faith and resilience.
📍 [00:10:00] – The danger of political paranoia and the pitfalls of extreme polarization.
📍 [00:18:00] – The "friend-enemy" paradigm in American politics and its influence in Christian fundamentalism.
📍 [00:24:00] – Revisiting Divided We Fall: How America’s divisions have devolved since 2020.
📍 [00:40:00] – The categories and differences of unwise, unethical, and unlawful political actions.
📍 [00:55:00] – The balance between justice, kindness, and humility in political engagement.
📍 [01:00:00] – The After Party initiative: A Christian approach to politics focused on values rather than policy.

💬 Featured Quotes

🔹 "You don't know who you truly are until your values are tested." – David French
🔹 "If we focus on the relational, we can have better conversations even across deep differences." – Corey Nathan
🔹 "Justice, kindness, and humility—if you're missing one, you're doing it wrong." – David French
🔹 "The United States has a history of shifting without repenting. We just move on." – David French

📚 Resources Mentioned

David French’s Writing: New York Times
David’s Book: Divided We Fall
The After Party Initiative – More Info
Advisory Opinions Podcast (with Sarah Isgur & David French) – Listen Here

📣 Call to Action

🔗 Connect With Us on Social Media

@coreysnathan:

David French:
🔗 Twitter | BlueSky | New York Times

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How to Discuss Ukraine: First Principles, Facts, and Formulating Reasoned Positions Mar 08, 2025

Show notes

In this episode we dive into the complex issue of Ukraine, America's involvement, and the broader implications for democracy and global alliances. This episode is an exploration of how we can develop reasoned positions on global conflicts, engage in informed discussions, and recognize the limitations of our own expertise.

What We Discuss

How to approach discussions about Ukraine with a reasoned, principled perspective.
The importance of distinguishing between facts and opinions in political discourse.
How to recognize and rely on credible experts rather than self-appointed commentators.
Strategies for engaging in meaningful conversations with those who hold different views.
Why shared values and historical context matter in forming ethical positions.

Episode Highlights

[00:01:00] – Corey introduces the topic, emphasizing the importance of forming reasoned opinions based on principles rather than political affiliations.

[00:04:00] – The rise of divisive, “owning the libs” mentalities in political discourse and the shift away from virtues like decency and integrity.

[00:06:00] – Discussion of a powerful article by Dr. Russell Moore on the moral costs of ignoring Ukraine’s plight and the dangers of moral relativism in international affairs.

[00:09:00] – The importance of verifying facts through reputable sources like the Council on Foreign Relations, rather than relying on partisan opinionators.

[00:13:00] – Why experts like Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Anne Applebaum and military expert Alexander Vindman are critical voices in understanding the Ukraine conflict.

[00:18:00] – The dangers of allowing misinformation to shape public opinion and the tactics used in political debates to shift blame and avoid accountability.

[00:24:00] – Strategies for having better conversations, including finding shared values, hunting for points of agreement, and engaging with intellectual humility.

[00:28:00] – A reflection on balancing justice, kindness, and humility in both personal interactions and global politics, inspired by Micah 6:8.

Featured Quotes

🗣 “We can formulate reasoned positions on complicated issues, including Ukraine, by starting with principles rather than political affiliations.”

🗣 “Opinion is not fact. There’s a difference between listening to a trusted expert and being swayed by a partisan commentator.”

🗣 “What does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God...” – Micah 6:8

Resources Mentioned

Dr. Russell Moore’s Essay – The Moral Cost of Murdering Ukraine
Anne Applebaum’s Article – The End of the Post-War World
Council on Foreign Relations – Ukraine Conflict Updates (CFR)
Alexander Vindman’s Book – The Folly of Realism: How the West Deceived Itself About Russia and Betrayed Ukraine
Ross Douthat’s Opinion Piece – Trump and Vance Are Stripping Away Foreign Policy Illusions

📣 Call to Action

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Let’s keep the conversation going—respectfully and thoughtfully! 🎙️✨

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Talkin‘ Politics & Religion Without Killin‘ Each Other

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